assassination

[trim zinc]

If its not sub they r like
"Ez"

Sin>>>>>

Outlaw sucks tho

Jasnkanzkanskanskamakamw

[plain thistle]

sub has a "meme" build with 1 SD charge and that pvp talent that stacks SS damage, super fun too

killed a monk a couple days ago with 1 SS and first boss trinket

😂

[trim zinc]

Lmao
Simbols coldblood shadowdblade that pvp talent
Ss +trinket

Rip

[stoic needle]

You should keep internal bleeding it's huge

It's like 6k damage

[trim zinc]

weapon master (talent)
night stalker (talent)
dark shadow (talent)
symbols
shadowblade
shadowdance
coldblood (talent)
dagger in the dark (talent)
one shadow strike + trinket
rip

[plain thistle]

sometimes more, I did a couple 9-11k internal bleeding

[trim zinc]

imma prob gonna change

[plain thistle]

probably opponent with "low" versa

[gleaming eagle]

Iron wire

Would've been good if they don't nerf garrote silence duration in pvp

People would trinket 6 sec silence

[trim zinc]

its just 4

in pvp it only increases 1s

[gleaming eagle]

not much

[wary ice]

is there a way to sim for execute damage?

[lean fossil]

on houndsman, is it better to mut when you have the bear and guy together or fok as a combo point builder?

[plain thistle]

yes, let me get the line for you

[plain thistle]

mut

[strange python]

fok is better at 4+ or something.

[lean fossil]

we dont fok unless 4 or more right?

thats what i thought

[strange python]

sin feeling awesome compared to the beginning of the expansion

[plain thistle]

try pasting this on raidbots (above your character informations):

enemy="Fluffy_Pillow"
enemy_initial_health_percentage="30"

[strange python]

feels good not to compete in dps with the tanks. usually going middle of the pack with a few top 3's in heroic raid.

[wary ice]

tyty

@plain thistle if i set it to 40, will it drop into execute phase at some point?

(if u cant tell im trying to compare phase 3 damages on denathrius)

[plain thistle]

not sure, but I think the mob/boss will start at 40% and drop normally

at least the line says "initial" and not fixed xD

[wary ice]

lol yeah thats why i was asking

I'll fuck around with it thnaks

[lean fossil]

@plain thistle on council do you multi rupture and multi garrote in the beginning? or do you stay focused on one boss?

[plain thistle]

last time I simmed dotting 1 additional boss was a minor dps increase for the main target, and dotting all 3 was a dps loss on the main target

[lean fossil]

ahhh so just dot up the one next to the main target and ignore the other one for now?

council is like my one bad fight lol so trying to improve it

[plain thistle]

but sometimes it can be difficult to maintain a dot on the second boss while doing the correct rotation on the main boss, especially with the atendant and movement and dance, etc

[wary ice]

esp since to make it a dps increase u need to maintain poison on the off target as well

[plain thistle]

yes, you need poison there, otherwise its a completely waste

[lean fossil]

yeah i get that

i see you run subterfuge on all your fights, is that just because you dont wanna swap talents or is it better?

[wary ice]

not to speak for him, but subt vs MA is generally a character choice (sim and find out) on pure ST and Subt pulls ahead as more targets are introduced

[lean fossil]

thats what i thought but wasnt sure

ill sim myself right now to see

[plain thistle]

yup, dont think its impactful enough to change every boss, especially for HC

for my character, MA in pure single target is 13dps better than suberfuge

[lean fossil]

hmmm mines 9 dps to run ma over sub lol

thats not a lot

[wary ice]

yeah the choice doesnt really matter without SS to put a finger on the scale

IDK if we even use all 3 globals of stealth in subt anymore

P sure we dont ambush during it

could be wrong though

Oh speaking of things that dont really matter; any kyrians got opinions on Kleia potency choices for m+?

WPS simmed like 5 above lethal poisons for me w/ the 5% crit soulbind

[plain thistle]

yup, we dont ambush there, just vanish > garrote (for single target) and nothing else

[wary ice]

feels sad 😦

[plain thistle]

when we had SS it was worth to double garrote there, not anymore

[wary ice]

I would like for subt to make garrotse from stealth give 2 cp

let us use ambush for real; gives us a stronger presence in aoe openings

[stoic needle]

Wps just sims that way normally

Even in dslice

[trim zinc]

mastery increases envenon dmg??

[stoic needle]

It does

[frank sail]

As assassin are the only caps we have on our stats for haste? and isnt it like 11.11% 22.22% 33.33% ? or am i wrong on this

[eternal portal]

hey guys, does zoldyck work with crimson tempest?

[stoic needle]

There are no caps

[stoic needle]

Yes it does

[stoic needle]

You get extra ticks from haste at those numbers but they are absolutely not caps, it's good in between and past those numbers as well

[balmy condor]

There’s a fight type called “execute patchwerk” for exactly that reason

[north basin]

Need to invent some haste cap number and pin it. So people wont ask for it everytime

[stoic needle]

No

Because there isn't one

[north basin]

People tend to have magic thinking, they need magic number to feel safe and relaxed)

The link with cause and effecct is not availible)

[wary ice]

blind af ty

[split veldt]

does master assassin talent stack with the leggo?

[uneven plume]

I don’t see why it won’t

[wary ice]

I mean yes but why would you want 150% crit chance

[balmy condor]

100% wasn’t enough

[wary ice]

THe only benefit to stacking them is being able to be the Masterer Assassin tbh

[balmy condor]

I need to ensure that my crits crit when they crit

[inland heath]

what are the stats of assa for mythic+

[balmy condor]

Haste crit vers

[stoic needle]

They should make it like destro, any crit chance past 100% increases the damage of the crit

[wary ice]

no thats dumb

😠

[oblique flare]

bruh, assa is such a blast

[stoic needle]

How is big number dumb

[stoic needle]

Legit the most fun rogue spec don't @ me

[oblique flare]

@@@

[teal bloom]

Should I use Cloaked in shadows use Nimble fingers as a second endurance conduit in raids?

Or**

Nimble probably?

[plain thistle]

nimble is the feint/vial cost reduction?

[teal bloom]

Yes

[plain thistle]

I would probably run that, cloaked in super good for pvp

but for raid bosses not that useful

[stoic needle]

Cloaked in shadows is pretty useless for raiding

Nimble fingers is decent

You don't stay in vanish long enough to get the shield again from cloaked

[teal bloom]

Ty!

[gentle gyro]

https://i.imgur.com/pqRSDas.png
man, who at blizz though white hits being the highest damage was a good idea

[dense hamlet]

its good put up slice and go sleep ur atuos will do the work

poggers

[fleet whale]

depending on how you view damage breakdowns, melee actually isn't at the top anymore for sin for most people

if you combine both parts of deadly poison, that should be 1

[balmy condor]

It always has been

[fleet whale]

and in certain situations, garrote can be higher

and depending on how things go.. I can see envenom eventually overtaking melee damage too

[balmy condor]

That has also happened

To higher mastery friends and sludge logs

[fleet whale]

I know we hate the S word here... but It's basically a trend every expansion as you gear up

melee damage goes down

[dense hamlet]

yeah but no

melee dmg goes up aswell but it will be ur 3rd dps mabe depending on how u "scale

[gentle gyro]

all I'm saying is that SnD can suck my ****

in a more serious manner, are there some things for damage optimisation like pooling combopoints before using shiv or is that wasted effort

[dense hamlet]

its not wasted effort

[gentle gyro]

anything else in that regard that i might not think of?

or in other words, something that you actively need to do outside of keeping up dots and using envenom

[plain thistle]

hit stuff on cd?

[balmy condor]

pooling cp is wasted effort

[plain thistle]

dont overcap cp

[balmy condor]

pooling energy is good

[dense hamlet]

pooling cp before using shiv gives u more energy to work in shiv window no?

so u dont have to mut for cp

in shiv

[lean fossil]

isnt mut during shiv good tho?

[dense hamlet]

i mean envenom is better during shiv than mut

[lean fossil]

i wonder how much of a dps gain it would be to hold it to build cps vs using it

[balmy condor]

shiv doesn't buff mut in any way

[gentle gyro]

that was my thoughprocess as well

well technically it does

with lethal poison

[balmy condor]

it's just not a gain to hold cp

[gentle gyro]

not mutilate itself

[balmy condor]

holding energy is fine

[tribal marlin]

If you are pooling energy the way you are supposed to do it (i.e. pooling when at 4cp, outside of TB/Vend, with no maintenance to be done, before using envenom) then your CP will be "pooled" in at the same time

But you will use envenom before using Shiv if you are about to cap energy, and not doing it is a loss

as well as delaying Shiv to get more CP

so

But currently the condition to actually start "waiting" before using envenom aren't met very often

happens a bit, but most of the time there is some maintenance to be done and you end up almost never pooling

[balmy condor]

^

so you pool energy

and not cp

[tribal marlin]

Maybe it's a bit better with scroundel tho

I never tried it si idk

[gusty kestrel]

is it a dps loss in sims

or in reality

[tribal marlin]

it's an even bigger loss in reality than in sim, feelcraft

[gentle gyro]

what do I even do on sun king

cry?

[lean fossil]

to spam fok when adds spawn?

[balmy condor]

you are boss dam

[balmy condor]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2ZcxKaSFSpjFSSZbCytysh

aight fine

I guess its like 9 dps

huge

I retain that you just slam shiv on cd

[tribal marlin]

wait

yes doesn't work

[gentle gyro]

i'm just doing an alt run with the guild and the concept of the fight didn't seem promising to me

[balmy condor]

its actually mostly because it overcaps with shiv sometimes

[gentle gyro]

i usually heal there

[chilly marsh]

CT not refleshing alacrity is a bug?

[tribal marlin]

& and | are like X and +

so A|B&C

=A|(B&C)

your condition only apply when sepsis is up

[balmy condor]

oh did I forget paranthesis

[balmy condor]

yes, well known

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3waN3BRtbnZHj4RkpViGgh

kek now it's shit

[chilly marsh]

really anoying... started playing some sin dg

[tribal marlin]

ofc it is

not good to delay Shiv. You could probably optimise it but idk

[chilly marsh]

but is bug that they will fix or intended ?

[balmy condor]

[balmy condor]

hopefully fix

[chilly marsh]

anyway better make a report ptr about it in case

[balmy condor]

but it doesn't really change anything

[gentle gyro]

i just need to convince my rl to let me swap from heal to sin rogue

should be easy

[balmy condor]

is it

that seems difficult

[gentle gyro]

it's impossible cause I'm the disc priest

if i swap we cannot do shit

i really wanted to main rogue this expac, gave up 2 weeks into it, went back to priest

and here we are

[tribal marlin]

But actually I think we should "start pooling" at 0 cp rather than at 4cp+ when pooling IF last finisher is not envenom

basically it doesn't change anything in theory

but in reality, it allow you to be able to drop 2 mutilate before leaving melee range in case of mechanics

insteed of just drop an envenom and waste env buff

because yes ofc I forgot to say it, but in real encounter you are pooling energy while leaving melee range naturally xD

And you always want to empty energy bar before leaving melee range. But you can't really "greed" multiple global neither when you have to deal with a mechanic. You can fit 1, maybe 2. So being stuck at high energy when mechanic happen to you sucks.

[fleet whale]

it's interesting to see that a NS, MFD, and MA leggo build appears to be good for farm parsing lol

[tribal marlin]

If you are talking about gumi

he's buying PI

so ...

PI on NF assa rogue is insanely good tho

compete with hunter and DK actually

Fact is that the guy who did the "PI" spreadsheet is using T26 default profile from simc .... which is Kyrian

[balmy condor]

covenant doesn't change the evaluation much

[tribal marlin]

It does quite a bit for NF vs Kyrian seems like

I guess it's all bout grove

(again)

lemme check again

[stoic needle]

The pi spreadsheet is inherently flawed in that it assumes that you only PI the same person with every cast when if you really wanted to optimize it you'd spread it out between different classes and give it to sin rogue during the execute

[vestal wren]

Bone spike mastery scaling could make pi impact slightly better

also pi during execute could be interessting

[tribal marlin]

it still doesn't scale with mastery only the initial damage does 😦

[stoic needle]

Does bone spike tick faster with haste?

[tribal marlin]

seems like a bug tho

[tribal marlin]

hahaha I was so much conviced dude.
But .... nah unfortunately it's better on hunter

PI on True Shot + WS just have too much value

[stoic needle]

I don't want to believe it

[balmy condor]

I just ran it with my BiS list setup on kyrian and fae

it's 5.05% on kyrian, and 5.21% on fae

GIGA

[tribal marlin]

https://i.imgur.com/NN745h6.png

that's 3mn execute

for hunter

same with rogue

[night cipher]

with zoldyck or scoundrel ?

[tribal marlin]

warrior

dk

[vestal wren]

so, the impact could be slightly higher

but would need to be ~60 dps higher to beat other classes

intersting

[balmy condor]

seems reasonable

we're still tuned too low

the necro change probably won't do shit

[vestal wren]

just wait for tier sets 😛

[dense hamlet]

sin execute is fairly good vs dk and warriors

[tribal marlin]

we have very good execute tho and I redid the sim and ye it's same

but

[balmy condor]

like the mastery buff itself is like 35-40 dps

[tribal marlin]

I will sim with Vendetta sync with Sep at 4:30

[balmy condor]

giving pi

it's like

margin of error levels

[tribal marlin]

fuck the engine does not know "debuff.sepsis.up"

[vestal wren]

try dot.sepsis

[tribal marlin]

dot.sepsis.ticking ?

[vestal wren]

that or dot.sepsis.remains

[grave cove]

Odd question, but back in the days of legion it was actually optimal to envenom on 3 combo points to maximise the uptime of Elaborate Planning/Envenom buff. Is that still a thing in SL?

[balmy condor]

no

I don't remember that being a thing in legion either

[vestal wren]

i am not sure what time frame you talk about

[grave cove]

It was actually a strat that wasn't much discussed, but actually was a thing for assa

[vestal wren]

but i remember changing the ep conditions to a very simple one in bfa and actually never finding one of those optimizations options to be a noticeable damage gain

even tho it was very common practice to optimize for it

[tribal marlin]

ok

I struggled a bit because stupid vary time

SOo as usual i'm using fixed 300s sim

ok get ready xD

[balmy condor]

pog

[tribal marlin]

default

PI with Sepsis + Vend at 270s

pi at 270 with Sep + Vend

ok that's not as impressive as I thought it would be 😦

[balmy condor]

it's just worse

[tribal marlin]

nah

it's good !

It's without execute here

5mn standards

[balmy condor]

oh I see

wrong order

20 dps

hype

[tribal marlin]

50dps overall to hold vendetta tho

[balmy condor]

yes, on specifically that fight time, with no variance, with niya

[tribal marlin]

yes

but remember we were talking about sepsis timing shit last day

and I told ya it was hard to get a value on 300s sims

because loosing sepsis cast

it's because in 300s sims that's not Sepsis but Vend you should delay

[balmy condor]

cool

[tribal marlin]

now I have no idea how to make a global condition tbh

well anyway 433 is way more higher than the 383 the PI sheet is selling

still 70 behind hunter tho

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/co5gqQLWwxHqmzExDytU4f (changed pot to agility)

Execute 180sec with Sepsis at 0 and 120s

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/szJNxFsS6R6URP6tmxdNA this is warrior in comparison

we're officially the best execute class

[stoic needle]

How much is hunter?

[tribal marlin]

shit

[stoic needle]

Also what about venthyr hunter

[tribal marlin]

DK execute is good as well

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8zJxWjm9GRu9JLNVH7J7km

dk

[dense hamlet]

soulreaper op

[dense hamlet]

who dfk even plays that

[languid totem]

What is the MA nerf that fuu mentioned in the #off-topic channel? I logged onto the PTR and don't see anything different.

[balmy condor]

it's whitelisted

#tc-updates

[stoic needle]

I mean after Nf gets nerfed some people might

[languid totem]

Thanks @balmy condor didn't see that channel.

[dense hamlet]

i mean if Nf gets nerfed some ppl might get off hunter and reroll

[tribal marlin]

I don't think they will nerf covenants

[stoic needle]

They did

They fixed the double proccing bug for hunters that made NF good

It's kinda trash now

[tribal marlin]

oh really ?

[languid totem]

Didn't they nerf Kyrian for hunters and rogues in PvP?

[balmy condor]

yeh but who cares about pvp

[tribal marlin]

when did they fix the nf hunter bug ?

[stoic needle]

On ptr I believe

The hunters aren't talking about it

[dense hamlet]

it was a while ago i think that happend and it was double procing with theyr mastery or smthing

or was that smthing else

[tribal marlin]

yes i remember that

but it still good

has been fixed a while ago no ?

[dense hamlet]

yeah it was just better

yeah thats like a month

or more

[tribal marlin]

ye make sensez

[dense hamlet]

idk tho maybe more fixes i didnt read them

who cares abt hunter nerfs

[stoic needle]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/mm-hunters-in-ptr-will-be-doing-roughly-200-dps-less/869622

[dense hamlet]

good

fuck mm hunters

make it 500 less

[stoic needle]

It's gonna be more than 200 dps lol

[tribal marlin]

cheh

[dense hamlet]

oh so theyr serpant sting was double procing with wild spirit

good change make it not even proc

"Welp… Guess we gonna need +5% to everything on all hunter specs now"

this guy

[tribal marlin]

tbh Hunter is pretty average outside of WS

[dense hamlet]

yes

[stoic needle]

Good

[dense hamlet]

let it be

[tribal marlin]

it's surely a niche because it's the best 4-5 target burst damage in the game

but unless there is SLG 2.0, hunter will not be taken in raid next tier

[dense hamlet]

good

[stoic needle]

🎻

[dense hamlet]

i hope they are not even taken in mplus

fk them

just buff rogues and we cool

[tribal marlin]

I can't wait for Assassination to rise as the best execute class hahahaha

[stoic needle]

🚀 📈

To the moon

[dense hamlet]

yeah if there is more fights like sire phase 3 next tier

[cedar steeple]

[strange silo]

Hey quick gear question on wowhead it says that we should use eternal stats over eternal skirmish but if i sim myself it always says eternal skirmish over stats is there a reason we wanna take the stats instead of the dmg proc?

[feral merlin]

Hey just did Coldheart Interstitia and Zoldycks didnt drop?

[balmy condor]

it's not 100%

[balmy condor]

skirmish is single target,

stats is just stats

usually very close

[feral merlin]

can i spam it?

[low girder]

uh it should be 100%, but did you do it on layer 3+

[balmy condor]

yes

[balmy condor]

it's not

people did 8's and didn't get it in like 4 runs

[low girder]

did that change? 'cause it has been for every alt one i've gotten

wtf

[balmy condor]

yeah

I thought it was 100 as well

[feral merlin]

it says its 3+ so im just gonna do a bunch of layer 3s

[balmy condor]

yeh go for it

[feral merlin]

having to wait for the wing to open is one thing but not making it 100%? cmon blizz

[balmy condor]

it's like 98% or something crazy

[low girder]

you can do TC and keep restarting

until you get coldheart

[feral merlin]

well coldheart is up

[fleet anchor]

I will believe this when I see it

😛

Unless Blizzard manages to make a raid tier that doesn't prefer having 2:1 Ranged/Melee comps, I doubt much will change

Assassination having strong execute could definitely be a niche we see develop but I don't think a spec can survive on that by itself

Sire is honestly one of the best of best cases for it, similar to Fallen Avatar

[fleet whale]

i mean if Wild Spirits gets nerfed and they aren't compensated for it

hunters don't really bring that much to raid compared to other classes

[fleet anchor]

Hunters are still a mobile ranged spec with an immunity so... they bring more than most melee by default 😛

[fleet whale]

i mean you would likely just replace them with more mages

[fleet anchor]

Maybe we need some more Mage nerfs without compensation too then!

[fleet whale]

and isn't balancedgetting hit with the bat in 9.0.5

[fleet anchor]

I hardly see any argument for "compensation" for a bug for an overperforming spec just to keep them in line with other overperforming specs though

Where's the Rogue compensation for making MA no longer work with trinkets and enchants and stuff? lol

Or will Outlaw get buffed when they eventually fix the Kyrian Find Weakness exploit?

Seems doubtful 😄

[fleet whale]

well, there was the fok build in Antorus

that basically caused sin to get buffed

[oblique flare]

wait, MA won't work on trinkets any longer?

[fleet anchor]

Correct

[oblique flare]

blizzard

[fleet anchor]

Antorus was a bit of a special case though because they had to rebalance the whole AoE profile

Messed with a lot of things

[amber briar]

Since when?

[balmy condor]

nor will it work on NW weapons

[oblique flare]

why do they ruin everything, i really hope to see something in return man

[fleet whale]

maybe they'll hand out another 5% aura buff to sin

[fleet anchor]

Assassination still ended up eating a net DPS loss after that hotfix though. And they didn't do any compensation for the snapshotting bug, just the total PK redesign

[fleet whale]

it wasn't a very big dps loss though

and it was really only a loss for those who stacked that trait

[fleet anchor]

The snapshotting bug is probably a more accurate comparison

[fleet whale]

the spec as a whole, was in a more healthy spot gameplay wise

but you know blizz doesn't understand how dps really works

when both frost mages and sin rogues got the same % of an aura buff

[fleet anchor]

I still don't get why spec auras don't have auto attack modifiers in them.. Blizzard always forgets about it

[fleet whale]

hence why blizz doesn't understand how specs work lol

[fleet anchor]

Whole damage profile of Assassination needs to be completely revamped though

Having a >50% passive is just kinda a joke

[fleet whale]

a lot of things about assassination needs to be revamped

[fleet anchor]

It's clear the baseline coefficients are just total jank

[fleet whale]

even our 50-60 perks are garbage

[fleet anchor]

Whole thing needs to be zero'd out and rebalanced from scratch probably

[fleet whale]

i think mutilate baseline damage not accounting for aura buffs

is like lower than demon's bite lol

but even if the perk actually works... why the hell should we be excited for 100% poison application out of stealth?

[fleet anchor]

Since now the AA ratio is all out of whack

Like top Assassination parse on Hungering is 14% melee damage while it's 17-18% for Outlaw and Sub, which is just gonna cause strange issues in the future

[fleet whale]

in BFA didn't aa damage end up at around 10-12% though

in NYA anyway

[tribal marlin]

it's not the same raw numbers ?

why would assa deal less damage with auto Oo

[fleet anchor]

It's kinda bound to end up different because of mechanics

[tribal marlin]

Symbols / SD

[fleet anchor]

AR vs. Symbols/ShD vs. Vendetta

[tribal marlin]

right

[fleet anchor]

Anyway, that's the least of concerns

Gotta pump that passive up to 60% 😄

[tribal marlin]

what passive ?

[fleet whale]

the aura buff

[fleet anchor]

The Assassination aura

[fleet whale]

it's up to like 49% right now

[tribal marlin]

wtf

[fleet whale]

by far the highest of any spec in the game

[fleet anchor]

51%

😄

[fleet whale]

sub is in the low 20s

and outlaw is like in the teens

to put it into perspective

[tribal marlin]

lol so even if they give +5% to the aura, it would just be +3% dps overall

[fleet anchor]

Yeah although usually when they talk about patchnotes

It's in relative terms

[tribal marlin]

ok ok

[fleet whale]

i wonder if another 5% aura buff to sin

would make it good

[dense hamlet]

its more like 4/25 or smthing

cuz at this point ur passive poisions do alot

a LOT

[fleet whale]

poisons

[fleet anchor]

So they'll do like 1.51 * 0.05 = 7.5% or so

[fleet whale]

are a part of the aura

[dense hamlet]

yeah thats the thing

[fleet anchor]

But they like round numbers

[dense hamlet]

its allready doing alot

and it would do more

the melee is the thing is not affected

[tribal marlin]

They wont give another 5% to assa

[dense hamlet]

and its meh

[fleet anchor]

But yeah that's usually the mistake they make when figuring out the numbers

[fleet whale]

i mean we thought that after the 8% buff

[fleet anchor]

"Oh it's 5% behind, let's buff by 5%"

[fleet whale]

and they ended up giving another 5% lol

[fleet anchor]

But that's not really 5%

It's 5% of class abilities, which is only like 80% of total DPS

[fleet whale]

which is why it's dumb that blizz is buffing frost mages so much by aura

[fleet anchor]

For casters it's a lot closer to 1:1

[fleet whale]

frost is actually tuned very high right now

and can do absurd damage if the stars line up

[dense hamlet]

yeah frost is very good rn

[tribal marlin]

I'd like to see Sepsis scaling with Execute and Mastery tho

[fleet anchor]

Frost might be borderline broken for ST atm

[fleet whale]

if they wanted to make frost mages more competitive in raid, or just more played in general

aura buffs wasn't the way for that spec

[fleet anchor]

Frost not being taken is a damage profile issue far more than a damage issue

[tribal marlin]

It's sad for our friends Warriors, but Warriors have clear value such as raid buff and raid CD

[fleet anchor]

Whereas like other specs like Assassination or Havoc it's a legit damage issue

[tribal marlin]

Rogue doesn't have this and I'd like to see rogue having a strong niche by being the one executing much better than anyone else

[fleet anchor]

And it's funny Blizzard can't tell the difference

[fleet whale]

cause most blizz devs don't visit class discords i guess

[fleet anchor]

I mean as long as raids are so melee-unfriendly it's hard to find spots for melee even if they are good

[fleet whale]

unholy

[fleet anchor]

Unholy has the best utility atm so it gets most of the spots as far as cutting edge comps

[tribal marlin]

It's all about raid value

[fleet whale]

and who knows, maybe the 9.1 raid will be nighthold 2.0

[feral merlin]

alright got zoldycks lol

[fleet whale]

and will have forum posts again of ranged players complaining about melee "just fighting target dummies"

[feral merlin]

just stealthed through till last boss

[fleet anchor]

lol Nighthold 2.0, the fabled "melee friendly" raid where at best it was 1:1 ratios 😄

[fleet whale]

well i think the thing was for nighthold

you brought the ranged you needed for mechanics

and then went all in for melee specs for damage

[fleet anchor]

But the mechanics still basically enforced a lot of ranged

But Blizzard gives zero shits if people bring 0 melee to Sludgefist 😛

Or Ilgynoth

[cedar steeple]

dealing more damage than a higher ilvl outlaw

[fleet whale]

Most blizz devs probably only play ranged

but i guess the big downside for ranged specs is that a large majority are extremely boring atleast imo

[fleet anchor]

I actually just find it funny

[fleet whale]

spamming a filler, just to go into a more powerful spell

gets old

[fleet anchor]

That Nighthold probably was the closest to a 50/50 melee vs ranged split

Of any raid tier in recent memory

[fleet whale]

yeah, it was split up really well

[fleet anchor]

And yet people still call it "melee friendly" as if it was a nightmare for ranged

[fleet whale]

but ranged player complained about mechanics

[fleet anchor]

And melee have had to deal with like 2:1 ratios on every other raid tier

In the last decade

[strange python]

everything is ranged friendly

[fleet whale]

pvp historically has been more melee friendly

[fleet anchor]

Ranged don't want fair, ranged just wanna get the raid slots 😄

[fleet whale]

idk about now though

[cedar steeple]

demonology is pretty much the only ranged i enjoy

cause of implosion

[strange python]

you describe a raid as "melee friendly" instead of balanced because the bias only exists in the melee camp. It's not that you have a "ranged friendly" raid, it's just that it's notably "melee UNFRIENDLY"

[fleet anchor]

Half the ranged specs in the game have just branched out their gameplay enough that they are just highly mobile melee specs that can attack from much further away

The days of turret casters is just long gone for the most part

[solid mica]

Whats the bestsoulbind tree in NF for sin pvp?

[tribal marlin]

#pvp

[fleet whale]

Preach apparently might be playing rogue soon in SL lol

[fleet anchor]

True, but I would consider a true melee friendly raid to be like.. 2:1 melee. 1:1 comps are just a neutral tier.

[fleet whale]

patchwerk in naxx

[balmy condor]

poggggggggggggggggggggggg

we got mr scalesalot on our team

esketit

[fleet whale]

and lol yeah he's been talking about it a lot

maybe he'll see the truth

about scaling

[balmy condor]

doubtful

[fleet anchor]

Rogue is t r e n d i n g

According to him, right? 😄

[balmy condor]

yes

[strange python]

here come all the rerollers again

[fleet whale]

unironically, at least in terms of perception, yes

[balmy condor]

we're S C A L I N G

[fleet whale]

guildies are already bringing up rogue scaling

[strange python]

get ready whispyr, inc new sins

[tribal marlin]

we DO scale !

Look when I add 50 agility on my gear, I do more damage

[fleet anchor]

Rogues, with some of the worst stat scaling metrics in the game are going to magically out-scale all the ranged with no class changes. Ok. 😄

[tribal marlin]

I'm SCALING no ?

[balmy condor]

but rogues have like feint and other things or something

[fleet anchor]

But hey, I'm 100% for him playing

Because maybe he'll start whining about Rogues like he whined about Shadow Priests in beta 😄

"Where's the p a y o f f??"

[fleet whale]

i can't wait to see his reaction to the assassination talent tree

[fleet anchor]

I still remember his giant rant video about Shadow talking over a video with him at top DPS because he didn't feel the payoff of his rotation something something

[oblique flare]

so, he decided to play the bottom dps tier spec

[fleet anchor]

Will really look forward to seeing his impressions of Assassination

[balmy condor]

yes but we're going to the MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON

🚀 🌑

[pliant sorrel]

🚀

[strange python]

so long as it's not just another content creator saying things like
"oh yeah I can see you in the chat wanting more raid utility, but do you really need it? doooo ya tho? doooooooooooo ya? with your stealth, and your stuns, and your shrouds, and your blinds and poisons... honestly"

[fleet whale]

i'm sure he's gonna love our ultimate talent

[fleet anchor]

"I get up all my 1000 bleeds and DoTs and press all my cooldowns and.. I'm middle of the pack. wut"

[tribal marlin]

🚀

[oblique flare]

after only playing top tier dps for mythic raiding, rogue suddenly are an option to him

[fleet whale]

being an entirely passive thing that does 2% of your overall damage

[oblique flare]

taking in off in t minus minus minus, waiting for another aura buff

[fleet whale]

or an aoe ability that used to be baseline, and a nerfed legion leggo that was never popular to begin with

[tribal marlin]

Maybe we'll play CT Doomblade

one day

more Maintenance

[fleet anchor]

lol well this is like us getting memed by chat on the Rogue interviews when we talk about weaknesses in Rogue survivability or raid utility

[tribal marlin]

nice

[fleet whale]

CT doomblade will likely never be worth

[tribal marlin]

CT doomblade assuming 2 leggo ofc

[fleet whale]

even with that, doubtful

whisp did the sims... with doomblade

you still run PB single target

[fleet anchor]

I mean it's ok if Cheat Death is just horrifically broken in raids nowadays, or that Crimson Vial was straight nerfed to make way for a feature that got cut.. or basically no utility that another class doesn't bring in a better package for raids. But people will meme us if we ask for anything.

[tribal marlin]

ye I remember trying some shit with CT ST it was bad

[strange python]

some of that conversation was annoying to see hey, people so rarely look at classes they don't play with a remotely objective outloook

[balmy condor]

well I'm glad you remember cause I sure as shit don't remember

[tribal marlin]

But I believe the CT ST fix wasn't in apl yet ?

[fleet whale]

yeah it was months ago

but you said it's not worth cause you are losing envenom casts

[tribal marlin]

ye make sense

[fleet whale]

and the extra envenom damage from the CT bleed doesn't catch up to that

[fleet anchor]

Might be worth looking at again with the APL changes

[tribal marlin]

I doubtfully imagine it being a clear gain as Varolyn say

that's still a bunch of CP used for the maintenance

[fleet whale]

or a big enough gain to make it really worth the effort

[tribal marlin]

get a bit more value in execute I guess

[fleet anchor]

Since that put CT at +0.4% in ST compared to before so it might change some of the evaluations

Not really since PB is execute buffed too

[tribal marlin]

oh really

[fleet anchor]

Yeah

[fleet whale]

yeah it is

[tribal marlin]

and why Sepsis isn't >.<

[fleet anchor]

Because they forgot

😦

[fleet whale]

cause blizzard

[tribal marlin]

I want Sepsis Execute + Mastery buff

for giga sepsis

[fleet whale]

at least SBS is being buffed by mastery soon

[fleet anchor]

imo Sepsis should 100%

[fleet whale]

sub channel may complain if sepsis is buffed by sin mastery or execute

[fleet anchor]

Why? Sepsis is buffed by Shadow Blades, Sub shouldn't QQ 😛

They have the strongest Sepsis atm lol

[tribal marlin]

I think they don't want one cov to be significantly better than other for a given spec. Which I disagree with.

Like idk Maybe Venthyr fit best Subtelty because shadow damage and finisher and all. I'm totally fine with NF being THE go for Assa rogue just because it's a poison

[fleet whale]

lol blizz has failed at that then

see mages

or shammies

and i think venthyr can fit assassination well too

[tribal marlin]

There is definitely some clear unbalance between Covenants overall power

[fleet whale]

at least thematically

[tribal marlin]

Like Convoke and WS being some really strong CD, while idk SBS xD

[fleet whale]

SBS will be better but none of our abilities are great at all

[tribal marlin]

I don't even understand why only the 1st part of the stuff scale with mastery

make no sense

[strange python]

so the real question is, how many of us are planning on submitting questions that actually matter to the blizzcon dealio (obviously any question that matters will be screened and avoided but still)

[fleet whale]

you know 80% of the questions will be about high elves and allied races

and heritage armor

[feral dune]

so, now that i have the master assassin leggo, what talent? nightstalker or subterfuge

[oblique flare]

sub

[fleet anchor]

lol sadly true

[balmy condor]

I mean, we are the minority of the playerbase right

[fleet anchor]

Gotta use at least 20 minutes talking about how we aren't getting High Elves for the 13th time

[balmy condor]

the majority is still like LFR people farming invincible on 15 characters every week

[fleet anchor]

Sure, but I would argue the number of people who care about High Elves or even know about what High Elves are in WoW is like half of a half of a half of a percent

[balmy condor]

every time I think that

I'm always surprised about how much deeper down the hyper casual rabbit hole

you can actually go

[fleet anchor]

Like you really have to be a giant lore nerd to even know High Elves are part of WoW

Since they really are hardly in the game at all

[oblique flare]

wasn't there a statistic about 90% of the playerbase still doing lfr raiding and heroic dungeons?

[tribal marlin]

Like I don't get it. WS is dealing like 600 dps on ST overall

while sepsis only like 100dps

[fleet anchor]

WS is massively over budget

[tribal marlin]

but ... it just doesn't synergyze with anything

like take Abom for example

sure it does maybe 100 or 150dps

but it gives a shit load of runes

[fleet anchor]

The budget on Covenant abilities was supposed to be like in the 5% range and WS is around 16% or something lol

Someone got way too excited when they were working on Wild Spirits and Convoke 😄

[tribal marlin]

I mean it's fine to have your cov ability doing 3 to 5% damage only if it synergyze by giving you buffs

Yes let's talk about convoke !

That's something I really want to post on their PTR forum

Some abilities are synergyzing with class mechanics

and some doesn't .... at all

make no sense

I see the problem : if Cov ability scales with class mechanics, you create outlier blah blah

but Outliers already exists by design

Convoke is Starsurges, Starsurges are by design affected by mastery / boat and all

[fleet whale]

well the problem with convoke was that in it's earliest iterations it was a complete slot machine

[tribal marlin]

Condemn is affected by warriors mechanics because it replace Execute

etc...

[fleet whale]

you would do random abilities, like thrash and shit as balance, and heal sometimes

they eventually reduced the rng by quite a bit, ends up really good

[tribal marlin]

So class that does not have a cov ability that is by design affected by class mechanics (did not mention other stuff like fire mage) are just inherently behind, and on top of that they make sure stuff like Sepsis or SBS are not considered as a proper class ability so that it doesn't even synergyze

[fleet anchor]

I mean i 100% agreed with Sepsis getting nerfed in beta rather than being one of the broken ones like Convoke

[tribal marlin]

They should rather allow every cov ability to be part of class mechanics, whitelisted for Mastery and passives, and just tune it so it doesn't go out of control.

[fleet anchor]

If Sepsis had worked with true Vanish it would have forced a bunch of super-linear builds and legendary setups

I was very much against that personally

But it's unfortunate that not all the class designers managed to tune the Covenant abilities appropriately

[tribal marlin]

And it's kinda late now to "nerf"

[strange silo]

Hey im not sure if this is the right place to ask this but if there are any zandalari troll sin rogues what is your opinion on bwonsamdis boon vs paku? the dmg proc is like 1-maybe 1,5% dmg overall not sure if the 3% crit proc would be better or not

or maybe one of you guys know if there is a way to sim even that stuff but i dont think there is a way atleast not on raidbots

[tribal marlin]

I think hero damage have simed theim all

tho default assa profile use kyrian

Looks like Pa'ku is the way to go

but it's a matter of 10dps

[strange silo]

oh ok if its that small it doesnt really matter thanks for the answer

[rough scaffold]

i did twos with a DH tank last night and we countered sub rogues so hard. Worked pretty well, so many rogues right now

[faint harness]

and then you read these "class writers opinions" shit

some of these comments are so out of touch

like moofz calling for wild spirits buff because a bug got fixed

and some other classes complain about "useless covenants" that only do something on ST

i'm here with 4 of those just like, uhm ok

I know they still tune us to be good despite having shit covenant spells, but its kinda sad that a major system like this is so trash for rogues, while other classes gets to press unique and big dmg abilities.

We're stuck getting a shitty dot that we only use to trigger mastery from a generic soulbind

[fleet anchor]

I mean their design goal was to make them low impact so that Covenant choice was more likely to be balancced

[faint harness]

i mean no ones covenant is low impact

except ours

and perhaps shamans

to an extent

[pastel sandal]

there is a difference between low impact and just borderline annoying

[balmy condor]

are our covenants annoying?

[faint harness]

i am quite sure we have the weakest covenants of them all both mechanically and numerically

[balmy condor]

I would think that they're actually very very simple and fit into basically every rotation quite easily

[faint harness]

yea they might aswell not be there

[pastel sandal]

venthyr definitly is

[faint harness]

yea but why would you ever play that torture covenant

when you can just press a button and do the same dps

[pastel sandal]

cause i want to look good in my renown armor ofc

[faint harness]

i mean thats fine

but then you sacrificed your mind for looks

[spice spire]

I highly disagree with “they might as well not be there” soulbinds are big.
As for our class abilities, yeah. Pretty weak. But both kyrian and night fae abilities do provide meaningful damage increases

I won’t talk about venthyr or necrolords

[faint harness]

i take it you havent really seen other "real" covenant abilities

and not the 1.5%-2% dmg fluff we've got

also every single class in the game get those soulbinds so the only real comparison is in the abilities themselves

all else is equal

[spice spire]

I have. I’d argue that’s more of a design flaw than minimal gain abilities we get

[faint harness]

compare shifting power to sepsis

wild spirits to sepsis

the hunt to sepsis

convoke

list goes on

if the design was to make them like sepsis, this wasnt a one-off mistake, everyone but "our dev" made this mistake, perhaps the blame is somewhere else

[mental wing]

We have a dev?

[ocean bear]

does envenom buff not work with pandemic anymore?

[balmy condor]

I don't think so

[spice spire]

hey @balmy condor I'm sure this is a question you've gotten a lot but does first strike criminally undersim, or is it just less than burrs on ST?

[balmy condor]

it's just worse than burrs

the strength comes when you got lots of fast pulls

that you can just wrack up the uptime on

on single target you get the first 4 seconds or whatever

and then its done

mega shit

[torn atlas]

I've generally being opening with subtle Garrote 3-4 x into rupture. Should I be looking to change that if using First Strike (or even a reasonable way to open in general?)

[balmy condor]

4 garrotes into a CT into fok ruptures

[torn atlas]

Okay sweet. Wasn't sure if I was effectively wasting the bonus from first strike that way.

[balmy condor]

yup

FS is basically entirely passive

no reason to play around it in a way

[strange python]

so the chances at getting shrouded suffocation in a leggo at blizzcon?

or are we just gona get
"now that you've saved kael'thas he's going to start creating "anima power" armor for you and your friends! It sounds just like corruption but it's actually completely different! In name only!"

[sudden brook]

@balmy condor i dont have usable sin gear, but for outlaw for example, kyrian and nf are literally a 0 dps difference, whats the dps difference for sin

[balmy condor]

uh, depends on gear obviously but I would say most people are a toss up +-50ish

[sudden brook]

in night faes favor?

i presume

[balmy condor]

usually, yea

it's not impossible that kyrian sims higher on people

definitely happesn

[sudden brook]

i assume u have a geared sin rogue?

[fleet anchor]

atm my Assassination set is like.. 150 DPS below Outlaw

[balmy condor]

well that depends on "geared"

but you can use the bis ones if you want

!bis

[prisma monolith]

Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz

[sudden brook]

whats ur gear

ilvl

[fleet anchor]

https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/combinations-fulls/1t-t26-assassination

Venthyr and Kyrian are about 3% behind

[balmy condor]

I'm uh, 216?

[sudden brook]

gotcha

[fleet anchor]

For ST

For AoE, it's less

Like 2% or so

So Assassination it's a little more skewed than the other two specs

But still not really massive tbh

[sudden brook]

just curious on how small the difference is on well geared character

not full bis

[fleet anchor]

Could be worse, Hunters are like -9% or something for their 3rd best Covenant 😛

[sudden brook]

yeah just curious going into next tie

r

[fleet anchor]

Some of the value seems a little fluid though because the value of Conduits will go up and probably shift towards Soulbinds with 2x Potency slots

So hard to say for next tier

[sudden brook]

yeh 4sure

im having an itch for sin rogue

hoping its good nex ttier

[shy dust]

not like youd play it

you one trick

[fleet anchor]

Guy using another spec might mess with my head

[faint harness]

Outlaw best as its ever been

Guy wants to play something else

I see a pattern

[fallow otter]

I got up feeling a bit groggy maybe something is really wrong

[sudden brook]

This is true

Outlaw is too powerful

I need something

Less potent

[sacred yarrow]

Stop messing around who will moderate the outlaw discord !!!

[fleet anchor]

Lok is better than Guy anyway, it's ok

Guy's been brushing up on his target Crit% so he's ready to mod Assassination soon

[trim zinc]

if i have a gear piece that doesnt have the right stats but it sim better should i use it? or stay with the haste gear that i have??

[balmy condor]

you should use it

the real question you should ask is "if I'm simming this to see if it's better, why would I then go and not trust it"

for aoe/m+ sims maybe depending on what you're trying to focus

but for single target sims especially, there's no reason to mistrust the sim

[trim zinc]

i was like vision tunneled in "oh i need haste" that i was using things that sim less dmg but have more haste

[balmy condor]

yeah, secondaries, at least right now, are kinda really weak in comparison to just raw ilvl

I had a 200 neck with haste/crit be worse than a mast/vers 210 from a dungeon

and that doesn't even have agi on it

[trim zinc]

so even if secondaries become better in some point if it sims better i should use it

[balmy condor]

yes

[spice spire]

thank you! 🙂

[strange python]

how dare you!? what about trying to make it a 60 apm+ spec! NID MOAR HAYST

[balmy condor]

Uh huh

[dense hamlet]

i mean for it to go high apm u need bfa haste 😄

[stoic needle]

that's what people want

and it's disgusting

[balmy condor]

The people are idiots

Fuck people

All my homies hate humans

[dense hamlet]

• theres like almost flat 0 chance we get anywhere near to bfa haste

[strange python]

hey hey I love me some zoomer assassin spec

I thought it was super fun tbh

[dense hamlet]

i mean we dont get it again

wont"

[strange python]

with DR in play I don't think it would be remotely possible to even conceive of

maybe potentially like legion sin speed

which was also super fun so w/e

having like 112% haste standing still was pretty cool though 😛

[fallow otter]

Never will we go back to the glory that was just before pre patch sin

[dense hamlet]

sure

[fallow otter]

And I haven't been sin since lol

[strange python]

sin in legion was great

imo

and that wasn't as bonkers fast

just good energy return

I wouldn't mind if they just actually let sin be the rogue execute spec in general

[dense hamlet]

with some work it will be

[strange python]

makes thematic sense to me

gota be honest though, as degenerate as it was, best sin, was fok sin

for that whole 2 weeks lol

https://tenor.com/view/nicolascage-breezy-smiling-feelinggood-niceweather-gif-4961337

^ me my first raid as fok sin

[fallow otter]

Kingslayer mini game was awesome but the rest of the spec was still boring bro let's face it

Dfa sub was more fun at that point

[strange python]

the only people who didn't love fok sin were people who didn't have the slotty gem type like things to put into their artifact weapons

[stoic needle]

what do i spend my soul ash on now that they're nerfing MA in 9.0.5

max out doomblade?

idek

[strange python]

MA nerf

?

the only thing I new of was the white list dealio

[balmy condor]

That’s a nerf

[stoic needle]

huge nerf

well not huge but a decent one

[balmy condor]

Not huge

[strange python]

I mean not huge

[balmy condor]

Mediocre

Deserved

[stoic needle]

no

[balmy condor]

Almost a bug fix

[strange python]

like it means we can't auto crit on the necrotic wake weaons and shit

[stoic needle]

ma in NW is fun

[strange python]

like

that's fair

[stoic needle]

blizzard hates fun

[strange python]

the leggo still works in every way it should

[dense hamlet]

i mean its working as intended imgaine not criting while having 100% crit

[strange python]

it's not like it ruins w/e build you were actually using it for

[balmy condor]

Fixing Broken strong is not the same as “hating fun”

[stoic needle]

yes it is

i only use it for pvp and NW

and now i won't even use it for NW

[balmy condor]

That’s fine

[stoic needle]

the larger point is that I have no idea what 2nd legendary to invest in

or do i just hoard soul ash forever

[balmy condor]

Make whatever you want to

[fallow otter]

You'll be more informed when you have 7.5k ash and you are about to run a level 8 so just wait until then

[balmy condor]

Details splits instant and dot from the poisons, sim does not @split veldt

Also try to avoid hitting the filter

Not a good look

[split veldt]

filter?

[balmy condor]

Say bad word, @prisma monolith will insta delete your message

And tell me that you’ve been bad

:)

[fallow otter]

I've made finality, celerity and ma

[split veldt]

oh lol, i asked if im an R-tard, oops

and i guess i am

lmao

[balmy condor]

R words will do it

[strange python]

yeah I sometimes hit that with words like R and Sp*rg
fairly common terminology in my real life around me so they just kinda slip out on occasion

in reality I should avoid it, particularly online

never know who you're talking to

[split veldt]

simmed myself with no buffs, and i can hit that and higher on the raid dummy, but i dip down a lot, cant stay at it consistently

like 800ish dps dips

[balmy condor]

Dps dips naturally between cooldown phases

[split veldt]

so raidbots is a cheater

[balmy condor]

What?

No

[dense hamlet]

i mean bosses have mechanics

patchwerk dosent

[split veldt]

this raid traning dummy doesnt have mechanics

[dense hamlet]

didnt u say im hitting that and higher

[split veldt]

yeah but i dip down like 800 lower all the time

in between CD's tho

[balmy condor]

?

Okay

[split veldt]

like whiskpyr said

[balmy condor]

That’s normal

So if you sim 5 min

And then hit the dummy

[dense hamlet]

yeah ididnt wanna say it twice

[balmy condor]

For 5 min

Are you hitting it

[split veldt]

ive never gone the full 5 minutes, but i can give it a whirl now

[balmy condor]

Well then you’re the one cheating

[split veldt]

[fallow otter]

Imagine running a 5min sim then hitting dummy for 1min and expecting the same result

[split veldt]

alright did it for 5 min, ended right at 5 min, 1.2k over

[balmy condor]

[split veldt]

5 min ends with CD's up lul

[balmy condor]

Neither of those statements makes sense

[fallow otter]

So you're trying to tell us that you can do 1.2k dps more than a sim with the same situation

[split veldt]

i mean the 5 min ended with my burst still up

[balmy condor]

I’m so lost

[balmy condor]

How

Well

Hm

[split veldt]

vanish with MA

[fallow otter]

You always hold for execute phase duhhh

[balmy condor]

Aha

So you’re looking at the 1 minute details

[fallow otter]

Hahahaha

[balmy condor]

And not your actual dps

[fallow otter]

When you vanish it resets your details

[balmy condor]

Didn’t we just go over this

[split veldt]

omegalul

so do i gotta log this or something

wtf

[balmy condor]

Or just total up your damage

And divide by 300

[fallow otter]

Get a friend to hit the same dummy

[split veldt]

https://tenor.com/view/calculation-math-hangover-allen-zach-galifianakis-gif-6219070

[fallow otter]

To keep it in combat

In same party

[strange python]

I just ended my target dummy 4K over my sim and wasn’t even trying

[balmy condor]

Sick

[fallow otter]

Im getting dumber irl listening to this

What happened to this channel

Lol

[strange python]

this conversation

Lol

is excellent

[balmy condor]

Late night spec channel

Feat. New people

[fallow otter]

Todays featured segment: Room temp IQ, how does it affect your gaming?

[feral merlin]

Is what is the consensus for sin rogue? Still bottom tier? Are we decent with the past buffs?

[split veldt]

i sim almost the same as outlaw

[balmy condor]

Overall? Trash

[split veldt]

im prolly gonna switch tomorrow after i get my second 220 pvp dagger

[balmy condor]

Compared to other rogue specs? Pretty okay

Specifically in execute? Pretty good

[feral merlin]

What's sin need? Is it kit or aura buff changes that are needed

[balmy condor]

Depends who you ask and how deep you wanna go

[hushed sphinx]

do y'all think it's worth taking herbs over burrs for when the pepega tank moves the boss away in the raid

[balmy condor]

They could just keep cranking the numbers and it would be fine

[spice spire]

Had the most scuffed raid tonight with rl and backup rl benched due to weather. Had no buffs either 🙂

[balmy condor]

They could toss a strong borrowed power our way like ss eb, dd, legion pb

Would also be fine

[balmy condor]

I wouldn’t, but herbs isn’t that bad

So if you really got concerns, sure

[balmy condor]

Could also rework the spec basically entirely

Would also be fine

The only thing that would be not fine is just leaving it as is

[hushed sphinx]

my haste with herbs and alacrity is

[strange python]

I think you'd see a lot of complaints about a full rework of sin rogue

and when I say that

I mean complaints from people that don't even play it

pulling out the "pls its so close to being the original version of rogue dont change it blizz" etc

I mean that's fine then, there's only like 12 people playing it

[balmy condor]

You can keep the parts that are sin

While iterating on it

[strange python]

I mean imo I think blizz has shown they are capable of making fun reworks

I think the enhance changes they made for SL made it actually fun to play again

and it was terrible in BFA

[feral dune]

well, hopefully support can fix my fuck up. can sub be played without 2 daggers?

accidentally bought fist wep and equipped, so can't use mutilate on assass

[cedar steeple]

sub can have a one hand in its offhand

but needs a dagger in main

I have a 200 katar, should i use it with hidden blades in m+ instead of my 200 well-placed

[feral dune]

assass shouldn't be able to buy the conq fist wep, smfh

[trim zinc]

bet we cant use it right?

[fallow otter]

Whats going on today

[feral dune]

i mean yes, but can't use mutilate. which is big for assass.

[stoic needle]

Don't use katar or hidden blades

They're both pretty bad

Imo, sin needs a talent spring cleaning, if you will

They need to make ct baseline and alacrity too tbh

And do something about how shit PB is

[cedar steeple]

well

suffering

im using the wrong talents AND katar with hidden baldes

[stoic needle]

[fallow otter]

🤣

[cedar steeple]

i was trying stuff out on dummies

then entered a dungeon

i have subterfuge

and MA

[stoic needle]

Not as bad as the time I did a dungeon with CTO equipped as sin

[fallow otter]

Not as bad as me clearing the raid up to mythic hungering before switching to monk

[stoic needle]

Traitor

[fallow otter]

Im a slave to the numbers

[cedar steeple]

[stoic needle]

[fallow otter]

I've got ce to get asap

[stoic needle]

If you do it as a fotm class it doesn't count

[fallow otter]

Lol