but you still run into the same issues consistently
#assassination
strange python
and that was WITH shrouded suffocation which arguably made sins sudden burst on packs actually very good
also
stoic needle
i've found my dps has gone up noticeably as i've progressed from 5s-8s to 10s to 12+
should be interesting when i get to 15s
i mean im never expecting to top the meters
stoic needle
as long as i hold my own i'm fine
strange python
they still die in the same time
potent crescent
What’s everyone’s ST opener with MA talent?
strange python
things only last longer when you're pushing the limits of what your group is capable of
it's not a case of just going higher
it's higher by comparison to your throughput
frail fossil
it's quite frustrating when it just disappear before u finish ur set up
strange python
when I'm in 15s things evaporate still
because we're geared to do 15s
if I was sin in those instances it wouldn't make much of a diff, OL would still destroy it in that environment
frail fossil
like idk i feel like sin m+ is all that set up for almost no reward
while outlaw just comes in
press blade flurry
sin kits really lack smth when it's not cleaving 3/4 targets with dots
river vessel
is ass gonna be decent tuesday for raid?
frail fossil
it is
river vessel
hell yea, thinking about crafting the lego for fun
lean geyser
What’s the go to lego for sin?
tawny barn
think about assa got like 20 % buff since begining of expansion
how badly they fucked it up and did nothing especially as this wasl iek this most beta
all those ex-pack delays put our poor assa down the prio list
strange python
the problem there is when somethings just "working" it doesn't take a high spot on the priority list
and in their eyes it was WORKING
working WELLL on the other hand
well...
strange python
antorus sin ftw
although I prefer the shrouded meta to the poison bomb "TANK DON'T MOVE" meta
tawny barn
well shroud was also lame if u dotn get restealths
coz all ur dmg is from garrotes
i would rage alot in m+
strange python
which was nearly always with how we ran dungeons in BFA
but it was actually bad since 3 super garottes was better than a hero every pull lol
strange python
not really
you should be able to use that for a reset AFTER the initial stealth
you still lost a shit of damage
and so did your group
for the sake of a chain pull that saved a fraction of a second
strange python
also if you were playing a nelf and not using your fade for the boss mechanic cheesing well...
strange python
there was a ton of stuff you could use it for
tawny barn
like what
tawny barn
as nelf i think assa is mandataroy in bfa
strange python
meh
tawny barn
i mixed up sentence kappa
strange python
really if you were intent on being optimal in bfa you weren't sin anyway
for m+ at least
potent crescent
What’s everyone’s ST opener with MA talent?
Seems to vary depending who you look at in logs
potent crescent
So do I
balmy condor
it will show best opener
I mean, kinda?
openers aren't really all that optimized
because sims work off of a priority
so there may well be an opener that does like 5 more dps
but it's just not worth
regardless, MA you're going mut snd mut
potent crescent
Mut, garrote, snd, mut 4+ rupture, pop cd’s, mut shiv, vanish envenom
Does that seem right?
potent crescent
Oh really
potent crescent
Yes
balmy condor
well with the lego you do the same thing
but I guess you would take subt
so garrote would be okay
tawny barn
well if u playing lego u defo notp laying master assa talent
potent crescent
I’m talking zoldick with MA talent
balmy condor
yeah so mut snd mut
potent crescent
Mut snd mut garrote then rupture?
balmy condor
yeh
potent crescent
Pop everything vanish envenon
tawny barn
they need to change the name imo
balmy condor
I was brainstorming new acronyms with people like last week
but we couldn't think of anything
lmao
best we got was mat
for talent
raven egret
mal
strange python
kinda feels like it's not just limit max that forgot rogues existed tbh
tawny barn
they need to make subterfuge a baseline talents ffs
tawny barn
mallet
strange python
annoying as fuck for the poor people on their phones to type though
tawny barn
there u go
potent crescent
I’m on my phone right now taking about a MAT opener
raven egret
"which is better sub or mat"
balmy condor
well you wouldn't NEED to capitalize
strange python
but you're not talking about your maT opener are you
balmy condor
the context usually will be enough
strange python
not without struggling with your auto correct 6 times
strange python
lol I was just joking about the final cap
stoic needle
MassAss
strange python
kinda unecessary though
mal and mat make sense to me
if we just use it enough it will catch on
raven egret
i dont have 40% crit man
strange python
hahahahahahah
balmy condor
yeh
raven egret
yea sims go mental on openers
potent crescent
Like dafuq
balmy condor
it's pretty much identical
top secret: moving around 2-3 gcd's in your opener doesn't actually change your damage in a noticeable way
raven egret
atleast it doesnt open with ER on kyrian 
potent crescent
Unless vanish envenoms don’t crit
raven egret
ez red parse
potent crescent
Lol
balmy condor
the reason why sepsis is the first cast is because it goes through the cooldown list first
before the generator list
and there's no checks on sepsis, because it's not a gain
raven egret
thats why kyrian isnt? cause its a generator
balmy condor
so it's just freely allowed to cast sepsis
idk bout outlaw apl let me check real quick
ER is listed as a builder for outlaw
potent crescent
So mut snd mut to get MAT benefit, then garote mut rupture, pop everything mut vanish envenom
balmy condor
I mean, you don't have to mut vanish
you can vanish mut envenom mut as well
that's fine
potent crescent
Ok
potent crescent
Do you ever pool in opener for that big vanish MAT damage?
It just hammer down
Or
potent crescent
I tend to shiv right before I pop vendetta
balmy condor
yeah in your opener with vendetta you'll have more than enough energy
so pooling there is whatever
potent crescent
I guess you kinda want that double mut in first MAT window cause of the seal fate
raven egret
mat mut mat
balmy condor
I guess you kinda want that double mut in first MAT window cause of the seal fat...
yes, you do it for the cp
hollow zephyr
Can anyone link me the dps rankings
balmy condor
for what
hollow zephyr
I know it’s not got the new sin buff abs that I just want to see where all the classes are
For CN
balmy condor
suffers from a lot of timings and mechanics sadly
strange python
slight timings in sub actually hit you pretty hard pretty fast
stoic needle
They really need to buff sub
strange python
peeps be sod into backstab all over the show
stoic needle
Un-nerf akaaris
hollow zephyr
Ferals are doing so good
That used to always be my main and this expansion I decide to try somthing new they are rocking
faint harness
Sub I so low
looks worse than it is
but yea CN is not a great raid for it
still decent
stoic needle
I don't expect it to get much better in later tiers :/
You think they're gonna go from this mechanics clown fiesta to more patchwerk stuff? I doubt it
strange python
patchwerk stuff has a tendency to also include a lot of "run out, run back" mechanics too which sorta just fucks melee regardless of what variety you choose
well maybe not so much sin..
there's something
stoic needle
Yeah I just don't see them making a good sub fight any time soon
strange python
even then it's only a good sub fight if the other monkeys in the group know how to read damage output
lol
stoic needle
Lmao
strange python
"BRO YOU'RE LITERALLY 10TH"
"first on the shields and shade my dude"
"DOES THAT EVEN MATTER?!"
"sigh..."
stoic needle
I guess what I meant is that I don't expect the next raids to be full of fights that are any less punishing for sub
So they need to buff the damage
deft vault
Is memory of past sins trinket any good for us?
balmy condor
yes
deft vault
like bis?
balmy condor
no
stoic needle
Phial and dreadfire are bis
drifting cloud
so mythic sire and rng vault 
balmy condor
yeh
stoic needle
drifting cloud
sins is prolly like 3-4th best isnt it
shy dust
I wish
balmy condor
yeah
strange python
I got a 223 phial from my first vault
shy dust
PvP on use trinkets
balmy condor
sins is really good
strange python
so I'm gucci
strange python
top kek
stoic needle
strange python
it's ok, next tier you'll get a 223 phial from a standard heroic dungeon and I'll be a pleb again
stoic needle
I have lost so many brain cells in that godforsaken hellhole
drifting cloud
pf is a pretty easy dungeon
drifting cloud
ah yes bait
balmy condor
it's not really bait
drifting cloud
plaguefall timer should get nerfed its kinda weird it hasnt
stoic needle
It doesn't matter whether it's easy or hard when pepegas wipe on the first boss and leave
strange python
pugs are always super horrible at the start of an expac if you can't separate yourself from the chaff
stoic needle
Yes
drifting cloud
someone 2 chested a 22 pf, even mists and halls dont have that
copper lotus
whats pandemic timer on envenom
stoic needle
If people actually stick with the dungeon it's fine but they don't half the time
I think I've failed more PF than I have chested literally just because of leavers
drifting cloud
and now last boss got nerfed so its even easier
I guess that could also be a pug killer easy to fuck up on it
but I did it like 2 days ago and the tentacle slam nerf is pretty noticable
stoic needle
No matter how much they nerf the tentacles there will always be that one motherfucker who doesn't dodge them
balmy condor
whats pandemic timer on envenom
30% like everything else
but that's really not something you should care about
drifting cloud
I know its sub but still 😛
does the nature dmg work with anything assa related?
but I guess Id use it over skulker any day of the week, fuck this trinket
stoic needle
No our passives don't affect trinkets
heavy ocean
legs or feet for zold
balmy condor
shiv also does not increase nature damage trinkets for that matter
balmy condor
legs or feet for zold
legs usually
gusty hollow
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/id/56288640#difficulty=3 are these logs okay? i know my ilv is about 200 but not sure where i need to improve
balmy condor
yeah that's fine
could use some more slice uptime
little low
but 85ish isn't abysmal
gusty hollow
Okay so more focus on snd. :3 here to learn to be the best
balmy condor
I didn't look too hard
but aside from that it seemed pretty okay
you're also hella delaying shiv
seems like
balmy condor
highlight your wa or something
safe nacelle
I'm surprised Overcharged Anima Battery trinket isn't higher up on our DPS tier for all that haste.
gusty hollow
Yeah i need to Change it to focus on it more
But thanks for pointin it out for both shiv and snd
12 % haste is quite bad right?
spice spire
I'm surprised Overcharged Anima Battery trinket isn't higher up on our DPS tier ...
haste isn't the end all be all now. It's a very good stat, but it's good to be balanced with vers and crit
12% isn't ideal, but if you're high on crit and vers, it levels out. Just don't stack mastery
iron charm
How does the opener look if you use master leggo on st?
spice spire
mutilate > SnD > Mutilate > Rupture > Mut > (if no crit) Mut > Vendetta > Shiv > Envenom, iirc
halcyon grail
Hear me out; subterfuge buffing ambush
iron charm
No garrote and ambush?
balmy condor
no ambush
garrote should be in there
with the legendary would be mut snd mut gar rup
iron charm
Does ambush suck?
safe nacelle
Damn I've been using Blindside this whole time.
iron charm
Ye i was about to say why use blindside then? 😐
orchid lynx
mighty owl
until they bring back corruption in 9.3
balmy condor
which they won't
we'll see like 53-54 apm end of expac most likely if there isn't something that makes us not want haste
heavy ocean
what other stat do we go with other then haste
balmy condor
crit and vers are good
strange python
Is it less of a headache to roll a second rogue for sin spec or should I just farm a second gear set
actually nvm Im thinking about redoing the maw and I'll do second gearset
quartz spear
I realize this might belong in #pvp but would Maim, Mangle be better in a pvp situation for burst?
balmy condor
no
quartz spear
Lethal Poisons and WPS still better you think?
strange python
I just have a feeling that sin is gonna be the best spec for ST again next patch 
I wanna be ready
balmy condor
WPS for sure
quartz spear
Yah def WPS
quartz spear
Huh really, I guess that makes sense
strange python
o
quartz spear
It's just so nerfed for pvp though
strange python
is septic shock + shiv actually good damage
tacit forum
Assassination having to switch conduits for everything is so sad = s
empty cradle
I just swapped to nf and was wondering is garrotte empowered if you use the sepsis charge on it?
balmy condor
no
empty cradle
Just vanish then for subterfuge 
empty cradle
So I assume you’d probably just ambush with it then
balmy condor
no ambush without blindside
near pilot
You use blindside proc yes
tacit forum
Gotcha, Thanks/
outer lodge
@balmy condor I just got heroic dreadfire vessel, so im using that plus memory of past sins - both are on use. Past Sins is 2m cd and Dreadfire is 1.5. Any idea best way to use each? Bind 2m cd trinket with vendetta? And macro vessel with like Shiv? maybe?
balmy condor
you want to use memory on pull and the dreadfire after
drifting cloud
you can use sins on prepull aswell
so you dont lose a use of the 1.5 one if the fight is barely above 3min
lean geyser
What covenient is everyone choosing for sin
lean geyser
Is venthyr a bad choice?
drifting cloud
the difference between all of them for rogues are pretty minor but yes I believe venthyr is last
glass meadow
Main outlaw and play both other specs pretty often. Crafted Celerity and MA right off the bat. Finally crafted my 3rd legendary dedicated to another spec. Crafted Dashing Scoundrel over Zoldyck even though it doesn’t sim as well. Still a decent leggo compared to others. What’s y’all’s experience with Dashing Scoundrel if any?
glass meadow
Yep. I thought it was a cool leggo effect and I wanted to use something besides MA in RBGs. Seemed like a solid pick since you basically always have envenom up on your target
balmy condor
usually boots
balmy condor
Yep. I thought it was a cool leggo effect and I wanted to use something besides ...
unfortunate, sorry to hear that
dashing is basically just sustained single target dps by way of more energy
glass meadow
In patchwerk it sims better than zoldyck. I know pure ST doesn’t exist but I thought it would be solid since crit/haste is necessary for sin to be a competitive spec. Dashing scoundrel practically gives you both. Poisons gain crit and you get energy back from crits.
balmy condor
haste/crit isn't really necessary
and dashing gives you energy
the damage increase from dashing directly is quite minimal
glass meadow
strange python
I wanna test how much damage vitality sacrifice would deal if you purposely tanked sludge headbutt and then unloaded on him 
glass meadow
Bloodmallet says our efficient secondary stat distribution would be around ^
drifting cloud
sure but when you move a few 100 stats around the difference is like 30 dps
glass meadow
But it’s impossible to reach that right now. Frost mage will also pop off once we get the ability to really stack haste/crit with gear
glass meadow
Im newish to retail. Started at the tail-end of BFA. Mained outlaw since then (still do) but wanted to start using sin in our alt raids. I though sin didn’t become top rogue spec in BFA till near the end of the xpac
drifting cloud
as long as literally every item you have is not high mastery ilvl wins
95% of the time
if not more
balmy condor
Im newish to retail. Started at the tail-end of BFA. Mained outlaw since then (s...
it's be the top rogue spec for 2 entire expansions actually
and people keep thinking that sin sucks early in the expansion because no haste
but then it was really good in emerald nightmare
and it was really good in uldir
sleek otter
are you saying even if assassa went back to 70 percent haste it would still be garbage tier?
glass meadow
I know primary stat is everyone’s best stat right now- so ilvl wins. But some specs literally can’t compete unless they start getting enough of certain secondary stats from what I understand. At least a frost mage main in my guild was talking about this
faint harness
are you saying even if assassa went back to 70 percent haste it would still be g...
Wild jump
balmy condor
I know primary stat is everyone’s best stat right now- so ilvl wins. But some sp...
that's literally not how that works
sleek otter
Yea but that was the number in BFA
balmy condor
are you saying even if assassa went back to 70 percent haste it would still be g...
are you saying that if sub went back to 70% crit it would still be garbage tier?
sleek otter
so thats why I said 70
faint harness
Could be true
balmy condor
I mean frost mages do like crit before they hit their cap
faint harness
The frost mage sims went around this by applying the crit buff from other mages
balmy condor
but that doesn't mean that they're bad because they don't have cap
they're bad atm because they're weak
crit cap aside
strange python
balancing gear around specific "caps" / "goals" would be a nightmare atm anyway since nothing ever fucking drops
faint harness
Well i only know what my mage buddies tell me. And thats that the frost mage sims are not reliable because they fake focused magic buffs, you need 2 frost mages for them to be viable
fading adder
Anything in part to do with the -19% aura buff that had at release of expac?
Frost mage that is
sleek otter
Werent they strong in beta before nerfed?
balmy condor
Werent they strong in beta before nerfed?
maybe? why does that matter
strange python
part of that broken'ness though was in that bs cancel casting thing they had going on
balmy condor
sub was broken on beta too
faint harness
They also had a bugged legendary
strange python
^
balmy condor
because they were generating literally twice as many combo points as intended
faint harness
They had fingers of frost permanently
balmy condor
it's always so weird to me when people decide to cite corruption and bugged beta implementations
balmy condor
you right
sleek otter
It was just a question?
fading adder
Corruption was shit. Let’s move on lol
faint harness
Yes
balmy condor
did you guys know that sin is really slow
even though right now, it's faster than anytime it has been between legion and now, excluding 8.3 corruption
faint harness
I have heard it a few times yes, last time i played it i was gcd capped tho
Is it faster than 8.2
EP sin
faint harness
What
I mean 8.2 sin had lucid
Which made it pacey
So also propped up by borrowed power
balmy condor
memory might carry
yeh
I have to filter out all the nonsense like weapon enchants
hold on
okay
so I took a random sludge log, and a random azshara log
without trinkets/enchants/defensives/utility nonsense
just rotational spells
the sludge log is at 63ish cpm in log
the azshara log is at 59-60ish cpm
it counts offhand mutilates as casts
so the sludge log actually ends up closer to 44ish apm, and the azshara log ends up at around 40ish apm
faint harness
You stopped dps on azhara tho
balmy condor
ashvane log from the same guy is a similar length to the sludge log, ends up at around 42-43 apm
shy dust
3 min
balmy condor
okay
shy dust
I’m dumb and can’t actually count
Ima need a second
It was like 44 apm I think
So about in line
low girder
yeah anywhere from 41-45 apm was normal
faint harness
EP pace was fine
balmy condor
it's pretty much just as fast
low girder
in 8.2
faint harness
So i guess its fine now too then
shy dust
So i guess its fine now too then
Still feels awful M8
balmy condor
why does it feel awful
shy dust
SnD is a terrible addition
balmy condor
aha
shy dust
Though you disagree
faint harness
Well yea
If its the same pace but every 40 seconds you use something that isnt envenom
It could feel bad
But thats straight feels
Obviously you get more dmg from snd
deft vault
the only thing i dislike about assas right now is i feel like my shiv window is always trahs
shy dust
Well yeah
When you discuss how a rotation feels
You separate the damage component from it
deft vault
like either my bleeds are about to fall off when shiv has like 6-7sec left on cd so i reapply them but then i dont have any energy poooled for the shiv window
deft vault
Vigor tho
faint harness
Yea
Vigor
Make snd worse and make it refreshed by envenom
If it has to be there
shy dust
Idm bringing back cut to the chase
deft vault
id like envenom to increase slice duration by like 3-5 second
balmy condor
that's the design that got it removed in the first place though
viral meadow
in the situation where rupture and slice both go down and you have to refresh one first, do we refresh rupture for the ER?
balmy condor
slice first
faint harness
Yea but i have a hard time seeing them removing slice for 1 spec
At least before 10.0
balmy condor
I don't mind slice, but it definitely is a weird ability to bring back
low girder
lol
faint harness
They could do something crazy
shy dust
Cut to the chase would be very nice though
faint harness
Like giving us kingsbane back
shy dust
Just from a feeling perspective
faint harness
And its basically toxic blade with kingsbane icon
low girder
unironically if they took the TB effect away from shiv and gave kingsbane back i'd be ok with that
even as a noted kingsbane hater
errant delta
so dose a patchwork sim acount for zoldks and if so for how much of the fight?
faint harness
I think they dont like the theme you know
balmy condor
so dose a patchwork sim acount for zoldks and if so for how much of the fight?
it does, and it's 30% of the fight
faint harness
Toxic blade is basically what shiv is
So if they have both, you have 2 abilities that are thematically the same, why not just merge them?
So instead we need toxic blade with new name and icon
Kingsbane
deft vault
WHy did they nerf toxic tho ? wasnt it 30% in bfa?
faint harness
I actually dont remember
balmy condor
because they needed to bake it into a conduit
faint harness
Just pressed it on cd
balmy condor
tb was 30% though
shy dust
Toxic was 30 in bfa
low girder
it was, the logic i assume was because now it's baseline instead of a talent
shy dust
But yeah just slammed it on cd
deft vault
idk buffing it to 30% would be a pretty nice buff imo
balmy condor
I think I simmed the difference between 20% and 30% at some point
and it was like
0.8%?
overall
something like that
maybe a little over a percent
now that I think about it
not quite sure
it wasn't very big though
deft vault
oh its nothing insane of course. but we take whatever we can lol
low girder
sounds right, shiv removed entirely was like 2.5 or something lol
balmy condor
it's actually a bit more now
steady aura buffs, lethal poison + wps ranks, sepsis damage if you want to count that
would assume it's closer to 5% maybe
definitely a decent button to hit
low girder
ah ok, respectable
balmy condor
just weird that it's not tb
let me check what it would be rq
yeh, with the 5% buff on tues: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ea7jMcXMS46VfuWe3c1Du8
6.8%
quite good
low girder
oh damn, alright
balmy condor
that's obviously juiced out of its mind with max conduits and shit
but still
pretty gud
low girder
yeah a lot better than 2.5% lmao
balmy condor
wonder how much symbols is
low girder
oh god
balmy condor
any guesses
low girder
ye too high then
brittle pawn
what's the advanced simc input to sim for the buff?
balmy condor
what's the advanced simc input to sim for the buff?
override.spell_data="effect.191052.base_value=51"```
if we trust blizzard to implement the 5% buff how we think they're going toyou just put that in the input
shy dust
No dance sim when
balmy condor
coming
dance is cast in like 5 different lines
had to hunt them all down
oh god
31.9%
balmy condor
the other fun thing about that
is that without dance
sub apm is just as slow as sin
goes from 57 to 44
shy dust
The horror of backstab
balmy condor
and 44 is pretty much where sin is atm
low girder
this is why shiv stayed for sub
livid temple
can i confirm that Dashing scoundrel is a trap and i should probably craft Zoldycks instead?
balmy condor
low girder
lmfao
balmy condor
can i confirm that Dashing scoundrel is a trap and i should probably craft Zoldy...
correct
brittle pawn
balmy condor
yeah its about 3.5% total
from where you currently are
it'll be like 200-250 dps for most
brittle pawn
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/i19Ey7Ad8Ybr7kCyRUX2wo was my normal sim
balmy condor
yehh
low girder
livid temple
im gonna craft that on reset then, looks like sin might be the play for me now going forward... i just find that downtime as sub just tanks my damage, where as sin i can get away with it a bit more
brittle pawn
i think sin i could go pick up seed/run from ghost/dodge suck in and get back onto boss before overcapping energy
brittle pawn
and not cry about losing uptime
balmy condor
I think without soulshape it's fairly hard to do seeds and not overcap
but sprint + step conduit should do it fine
livid temple
i mean i dont always get targeted by mechanics, but when i do its as soon as i pop symbols and dance.
stoic needle
So if they have both, you have 2 abilities that are thematically the same, why n...
because then you have to sacrifice your prio burst for utility
thats what i dont like about the shiv change
boys im up to 215 ilvl now 
finna PUMP in the next pug i do tomorrow lol
i hope that MFD ST sin becomes a thing eventually
balmy condor
rest assured that it won't
willow rain
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
rough scaffold
anyone else find that after some point - venom rush sims higher than alacrity?
rough scaffold
right? i thought so. im checking it again
balmy condor
every venom rush combination should around 4% down on any alacrity combination
hollow escarp
Alacrity takes some time to ramp up so maybe Venom Rush is better for farming the Maw 
balmy condor
ah yes, the true content
hollow escarp
don't we all love to enjoy our morning coffee while getting that 700 daily stygia?
rough scaffold
ahh ok. So i ran it on AMR while I was waiting for raidbots and AMR gave me that broken data. Raidbots says its not so
hollow escarp
what's AMR?
balmy condor
something we don't use because it's trash
hollow escarp
rough scaffold
ask mr ... um
drifting cloud
do you think autoattak still has an amr sub
balmy condor
I hope he does
someone has to keep the lights on over there
maybe amr and noxxic team up
hollow escarp
so it's some sort of raidbots
balmy condor
ask mr robot
drifting cloud
it hasnt been good since wod
hollow escarp
aaaaaa
balmy condor
they used to be decent
hollow escarp
I've heard about it
balmy condor
in like cata
rough scaffold
thought i found a glitch in the matrix for a min there. sheesh
rough scaffold
was that the rogue only one ?
hollow escarp
when did raidbots became popular?
balmy condor
no the rogue only one was shadowcraft
hollow escarp
I remember trying to understand how to use the simcraft app in legion 
rough scaffold
ahh ok i remember shadowcraft from mop or somthing
hollow escarp
I remember Ask Mr Robot specifically because I had a guildie that didn't wanna sim anything untile they fix it 
balmy condor
might just be some racks sitting in seri's garage
or something
i don't actually know what his firmware looks like
or if he even uses his own firmware
might just rent cloud computing for it
anyway
rough scaffold
maybe makes bitcoin when we not simin
balmy condor
either way, there's like 2 main groups of resources/sims
there's the theorycrafters
and then there's the shadow cabal of hooded figures that no one knows who they are
hollow escarp
what about feelycrafters?
balmy condor
wowhead/icyveins/simulationcraft/raidbots/class discords
that's the theorycrafter side
noxxic and amr are the shadow cabal
like no one knows where they get their sims, how they do their sims
no one knows who their theorycrafters are
who their guide writers are
they just post content
and it exists
rough scaffold
weird they don't communicate with the community at all?
balmy condor
well last time AMR tried to communicate with the community, they wrote a blogpost calling all the class discords shit, using data they had no way of getting accurately
and were in class discords, actively telling people to not use class discords
balmy condor
they took down the blogpost within like 3 days of backlash
hollow escarp
I mean, I don't know much about other class discords but I really wonder why they need multiple discords for the same spec/class? 
balmy condor
but it was crazy shit like 80% of questions go unanswered
which, first question, how do you measure that
hollow escarp
that's why I liked this discord, there is not that much drama as other classes
balmy condor
cause they actually said that they had pretty much a bot soak up chat logs
and then analyzed them
so what constitutes a question
is it anything with a question mark?
is an answer anything that comes after a question?
well it can't be, because then everything would be answered
so the more and more you went into the blogpost
the more and more confused you got
about how they came up with the numbers
and the consensus ended up being, they didn't
because they literally just pulled it out of their ass pretty much
rough scaffold
well, this is my only experience with class discords but i wish i had come earlier, honestly the wow forums are horrible. And I havent seen a signle quesion not answered on this server, which is remarkable.
rough scaffold
hollow escarp
balmy condor
catch these hands
rough scaffold
lol best duck bro
rough scaffold
ok wife is saying i must resign myself to bed. nn all
balmy condor
only reason I didn't respond myself was because I literally couldn't get a reply button on my account
night
rough scaffold
nn
stoic needle
sub channel around launch was the worst this discord has ever been
chilled out a lot since then
hollow escarp
this channel wasn't that good either after the recent patch notes
it chilled down a bit
hollow escarp
yeah, but now you had people caliming to reroll
Seli also played sin last night on Sire prog
so that might influence some people
balmy condor
sub channel around launch was the worst this discord has ever been
it was pretty bad in here for 82./8.3
stoic needle
thank god i wasn't there for that
main forge
8.3 was horrible until we could pick corruptions
stoic needle
I wanna see seli play sin in M+
stoic needle
it's a hard job but somebody's gotta do it
deft vault
whos that whisp ?? infexious?
deft vault
is he any good lol
balmy condor
well the thing is
none of the famous people that say wrong things are actually bad players
are they the greatest?
no
of course not
but they ain't bad
the problem is that they then feelycraft something, and because they have a following, that then becomes gospel
unique plume
Feelycraft 😂 😂 😂 😂
balmy condor
like at the end of the day
it doesn't matter if what they said is wrong
because people who don't understand why it's wrong, will believe it
and if enough people believe it, it creates relevancy
vestal wren
Reality is that everyone makes mistakes and wrong decisions
balmy condor
yeah
vestal wren
Higher world ranks are more compatitive and players tent to usually understand very well how to optimize a lot of things. They still very often fall for a more experience focused approach than a objective one and often have a big ego what stops them from admitting that they make mistakes.
a very simple thing to optimize that is often ignored(lower down the world ranks) is uptime, just being on the boss for longer does mean more damage by default.
balmy condor
we will on tuesday
balmy condor
EU doesn't exist
balmy condor
all the maps of europe are actually just people drawing north america while being cross-eyed
primal zinc
-_-
primal zinc
i didnt get it
balmy condor
I can see that
primal zinc
but ye will the bis list change or?
balmy condor
I will be updating it, yes
primal zinc
ty 😄 @balmy condor ❤️
balmy condor
it won't change any gear most likely, just numerical
strange python
just crafted my zoldyk 
hollow escarp
regal cape
What cov would people recommend if you plan to play all 3 specs to some capacity. Does it come done to conduit swapping or would using all three soulbinds be "fine"
pseudo hamlet
Anyone tried Sin in M+? How is it compared to sub?
balmy condor
What cov would people recommend if you plan to play all 3 specs to some capacity...
fae/kyrian are the recommended for all 3 specs. You can use different soulbinds without much hassle
balmy condor
Anyone tried Sin in M+? How is it compared to sub?
it does better on cleave and light aoe than sub
regal cape
Yee Im kyrian. Was thinking of maybe swapping to Nightfae. But mikanikos seems solid for outlaw
hollow escarp
I simed all night fae covenants and for me personally night fae works well for multispeccing because I play sin in raids and it's Niya, sub in pvp and I use Dreamweaver and Outlaw in M+ with Korayn. It's not the best dps choice for all, but it works best for me as the damage gap is not that big.
balmy condor
if you're doing mists? probably not
regal cape
I guess yea I was just asking if soul binds are significant enough to justify constant conduit swapping
balmy condor
there's 2 good binds
if you want to play all 3, the third bind is usally not great
but it's still kinda "good enough"
strange python
I think I can just use most of my outlaw gear for sin without many problems; just need to replace the slot my outlaw leggo is in and obv have a mainhand dagger which I'll just grab from pvp
pseudo hamlet
it does better on cleave and light aoe than sub
Nice! 🙂 Thanks for the answer!
regal cape
Yea kleia is prob gonna be my sin spec for now
strange python
How much haste is needed to be comfortable right now
Im only sitting on 15% or so
strange python
How big of a dps difference are we talking here
I know the energy regen isn't huge like 8.3 bfa
regal cape
:v) I prob need to even out my stats a bit before I full play sin
balmy condor
well that's not really a fair question
a 220 sin rogue with 0 haste will do better than any optimized 215 sin rogue
strange python
yea I guess you're right everything else factors in, should just sim it
are the secondaries that negligible
regal cape
The onbly chest I have to replace finality 235 is a 207. And it makes outlaw/sin not close at all to sub
at 220ilv
strange python
I'm only so keen on switching to sin if it keeps getting better because I'm tired of smashing my face on the sinister strike key 
regal cape
I miss kingsbane and execute
balmy condor
I would say we have more execute now than ever
strange python
I play rogue on classic too which is also just pressing the sinister strike key
my life is so boring
balmy condor
it was already better in execute and completely playable on everything
the 5% just makes it comparable outside of execute as well
strange python
Oh the other thing is that I like that you can still do damage while doing raid mechs and aren't close enough to hit boss
balmy condor
Oh the other thing is that I like that you can still do damage while doing raid ...
it's still very reduced to what you will be doing, but yeh
people tend to overestimate just how much damage sin does off the boss
it's not quite amazing
it's just better
regal cape
Plus sub just feelsbadman on enough fights. Yee thats what I mean. its equal outside of its already apparent strength. I was really looking forward to sub as well but coming back to melee this xpac has felt rough.
raven egret
yes its better than outlul who exponentially loses damage cause you cant reset cooldowns
strange python
well yeah throwing big envenoms on boss is gonna do more than just watching garrote tick on it
hollow escarp
after melee, rupture and garrote were my top damage on Sire
balmy condor
not envenom?
strange python
yeah I actually hate council of blood on outlaw, always puts my dance spot at the way back of the room and all of your buffs and combo points fall off and it feels gross having to rebuild
hollow escarp
10k below garrote
raven egret
council is so bad on ol
balmy condor
oh that seems reasonable
strange python
my dps just feels so bad on council, so much moving away from boss with dance partners and intermission and 
strange python
is that where you hold them in the upper left corner
north basin
Korayun 10% increased damage til 75%hp can help assa dps til we get to 30%hp area?)
hollow escarp
is that where you hold them in the upper left corner
I mean with the left right weak aura
and all dancers move right
why do I call it dance?
raven egret
it is a dance
hollow escarp
true I guess
strange python
I'm not willing to put aside the time to maintain/optimize character for mythic raiding
heroic on the weekends with guild and thats it for me
raven egret
we need to start practicing mythic recital
regal cape
100 pulls into mythic council is fun it should die this week. But hoping I manage to get the right gear for sin by Sludge
strange python
lol my heroic guild just mutiny'd and formed a new one because the GM refused to bench his undergeared wife who wouldnt do mechanics and kept wiping us
hollow escarp
been in guilds where the GM's wife was actually the best healer 
strange python
yea I mean we tried to level with him and it wasn't hostile and were just like hey she's hindering everyones experience so either take the time to help her learn and get her better gear or we're out
and he was just stubborn so
rip
raven egret
yea im good with boosting any officer girlfriends as long as its not prog lol
strange python
if we were on farming mode with it I doubt anyone would have cared but we're still progging the last few fights
and we aren't pumping enough to have a dps doing less than the tanks every pull on sludgefist
aint gonna work
raven egret
hahaha yeah
we had a guy from our classic guild who claimed retail was easy on our hc run and we were betting on how many times he died
guy was a 140 ilvl hunter
lusty surge
Hey guys long time sin lover here who dropped rogue for disc to raid, please give me the good news that sin is now so absurdly strong that I can tell my GM I'm switching back to rogue
silk wadi
Guys, does it really matter whether I use legs or boots for Zoldyck? I think there's no big difference
balmy condor
Hey guys long time sin lover here who dropped rogue for disc to raid, please giv...
its mid tier at best
balmy condor
Guys, does it really matter whether I use legs or boots for Zoldyck? I think the...
legs are usually about 0.5 - 0.8% better, sim yourself to evaluate
silk wadi
Yeah, I was just wondering since in my current gear setup I got only 213 boots, but 226 legs. But ofc I wanted to think also longterm
balmy condor
yeah
so right now, probably boots
long term, legs usually are better given equal ilvl off pieces
silk wadi
Thanks 🙂
frozen jasper
Korayun 10% increased damage til 75%hp can help assa dps til we get to 30%hp are...
Yes, but i think niya burrs are still better for pure ST, for m+ im gonna go with korayn but for raid its niya i think. Could be wrong tho
thin kernel
Koryan will be godly for classes that are already meta, pretty shit for us tho
thin kernel
so? we have no burst
balmy condor
why does that matter
thin kernel
as I said, better for others, not gonna make us better
lean geyser
Would it be bad to go venthyr
white tide
hey guys, is there a reason why most ppl using zoldyck over scoundrel? dashing scoundrel seems to be higher in sims for ST.
balmy condor
it's higher by like 10-20 dps
but zold is better in aoe
and provides more execute, which is sins niche
and doesn't require uptime on the boss
and is completely passive
white tide
ahh thanks @balmy condor , then i need to get my money back from runecrafter 😄 wanted to try sin this reset ^^
balmy condor
dashing would be fine if you're trying it in raids
white tide
@lean geyser the most annoying thing with the venthyr ability is you need to cast it twice and dont forget about it and its on GCD, so if the timings are wrong it just drops off without the haste benefit :/
lean geyser
Ahhhhhhh ok ok I see thank you @white tide
So for night fae I see if when you cast it and target doesn’t die you get to cast a stealth ability do you guys go with an ambush or garrote?
balmy condor
ambush or mutilate are the only 2 viable options
it does not give the combat bonuses of stealth
so empowered garrote is off the table
lean geyser
Ok cool and I see in the rotations that ambush is not used is that accurate
balmy condor
ambush is not used in the opener, and it is equal to a mutilate from sepsis
so the only time you would use ambush is with a blindside proc, or a sepsis proc if you feel like it
lean geyser
Ok cool thank you sorry for all the questions
balmy condor
np