in raid sin
#assassination
rocky ruin
fallow notch
Ill try it when it is actually close to Outlaw. Just build Zoldyck and upgrade it over the course of this tier
rocky ruin
Zoldyck or MA for m+?
drifting imp
Sometimes sin feels pretty weird in keys. You feel like you're doing nothing compared to other dps but you somehow end up with good dps overall in the end 
lament dove
^yeah exactly my feeling
fallow notch
3% behind for m+ or for specific raid bosses?
gusty mirage
tbh that’s like all rogue specs right now
stoic needle
Honestly one of the big things is knowing when to rupture vs when to envenom
3% behind in dps overall for single target and aoe
lament dove
or go CT and never envenom haha
drifting imp
Yeah just put your bleeds out and focus on that and then drop one or two envenoms in and refresh your stuff
stoic needle
I wish there was a good time to kill weakaura for retail
fallow notch
Hmm still need a 220+ dagger to even consider playing it tho. Since I have 235 Celerity and 223 mace for outlaw
drifting imp
Yeah I somehow don't like CT. feels fly weird to me
stoic needle
CT is amazing
drifting imp
I still have a 200 dagger on 213 overall ilvl 
lament dove
CT is the methodical way while PB build is more spammy and feels quicker
stoic needle
I find pb to be really unreliable when your tank kites
And it just doesn't do much damage
carmine flare
What's the best slot for Zoldyck
stoic needle
Pants
drifting imp
Ah good old pb. It procs always when you don't want it
stoic needle
I'm literally 2 fucking games away from 1600 but I keep getting on losing streaks :(
royal lantern
good thing pb dmg doesnt affect you much right?
stoic needle
I could have mostly 213+ gear
stoic needle
It does and it doesn't. It's not fun to have PB doing less damage than eternal skirmish but it does let you get more ruptures and envenoms out because you aren't spending energy and CP on CT
But since Ct is worth it even on 2 targets I have a hard time justifying picking PB for m+
carmine flare
What missives should we be using for the Zoldyck pants
royal lantern
what has pb too do with envenom lol
stoic needle
Read the 2nd to last sentence
drifting imp
I'm praying to the loot god's to finally see a dagger in my vault on Wednesday 
I haven't seen one in there for weeks now
stoic needle
Pb = no ct = more ruptures and envenoms
lament dove
if you have CT instead, you will barely cast envenom, which translates into less poison dmg, that's why CT is not like 10% more overall dmg vs PB
royal lantern
thats some weirdass logic right there man 
lament dove
why? PB is like 2,5% while CT is 10+
so where do you think is the rest?
I mean the difference
drifting imp
Does CT suck on tyrannical weeks?
lament dove
I don't think so
drifting imp
I never used it but I can imagine it's bad there. I guess you just don't use it in boss fights?
royal lantern
70%of the dungeon is still add fights
lament dove
PB doesn't do most of its dmg on bosses for me
lament dove
on some bosses it does like 1% dmg only
radiant pollen
cringe spec
stoic needle
PB does almost no dmg so you aren't missing much
drifting imp
Mhhh I should maybe give it another chance
royal lantern
cringe spec
didnt all the sub FotM rollers allready run away too mage/monk/hunter/druid allready? why are you still here lmao
stoic needle
cringe spec
Sub players malding cuz their spec is shit
stoic needle
Blue name go home
drifting imp
stoic needle
Why are you even here
radiant pollen
to laugh
gusty mirage
Blue name go home
Hey woah now I like it here 
radiant pollen
at our shit dps now after bfa
stoic needle
If you have nothing useful to contribute please be quiet
drifting imp
Oh a salty one
radiant pollen
?
royal lantern
good thing that you are so informed
stoic needle
Hey woah now I like it here <:SucksMan:586205462010003456>
It's okay we like you you can stay
royal lantern
nyalotha was litearlly 1 of rogues worst raidtiers in a longer time lmao
drifting imp
I don't know
gusty mirage
I think so
radiant pollen
<- you when I call assass ass
stoic needle
gusty mirage
Jokes on him, I’m angry all the time regardless of what other people do
radiant pollen
drifting imp
I love sin smile, regardless what some rando in a discord says lul 🙃
radiant pollen
just play outlaw and be cool
drifting imp
Pirates are sooooo 2k10s
stoic needle
lament dove
and why am I even reading this instead of playing?
drifting imp
But assassin's are timeless and classy
gusty mirage
Now all we need is envenom refreshing snd and I’ll switch full time
royal lantern
people that only play 1spec
radiant pollen
cause its more entertaining talking crap than getting loot from sl loot system
royal lantern
people that play rogue as a class, and not a spec 
stoic needle
people that only play 1spec<:FeelsWeird:585739277120307220>
Just @ me next time
gusty mirage
😂
royal lantern
@stoic needle
lament dove
I played sub until last buffs, I'm a fotm reroller:(
radiant pollen
nah real talk I miss bleed build, most fun I've had on rogue
gusty mirage
I played sub until last buffs, I'm a fotm reroller:(
Nah you just don’t like pirate rogue, and that’s okay
stoic needle
I tried to like sub and outlul but I just don't
radiant pollen
sub is meh
gusty mirage
Sub feels clunky, especially in m+
lament dove
yeah
radiant pollen
I've tried all 3 so far, outlaw is just better atm.. The range you get for raid and certain bosses is too good plus you do more damage its dumb
royal lantern
its simple, but wont call it clunky
lament dove
I like outlaw tbh... but I just can't do more dps with it, so I either suck with it or I'm too good with assa (I go with the latter one)
radiant pollen
well could be a gear thing
stoic needle
I find the core mechanics of outlaw to not be enjoyable for the long term
Rtb is just a pain
gusty mirage
I do more damage as outlaw, but I’ve never really enjoyed it. It’s better now but I’ll always have sin and legion sub in my heart
radiant pollen
yeah but once you learn the rtb its pretty fun, but the rng is lame. Sometimes 5 buffs sometimes 1 or 2
stoic needle
I have learned it, but I still don't enjoy it
I don't like my rotation and output being decided by a dice roll
I prefer consistency
gusty mirage
Just consistently roll shit buffs like I do, ez
stoic needle
No clue how they'd implement it, but I'd rather have the buffs be selectable and have some that are clearly better for aoe vs single target
gusty mirage
I just want blizz to fix assa, with more than just numbers tuning
radiant pollen
assass=outlaw > sub
stoic needle
And have some utility buffs that do survivability and stuff as well
radiant pollen
yeah idk how the messed up ass so bad lol. Was a bit upset cause I loved the boss nuking
gusty mirage
They propped it up with a lot of borrowed power in bfa, took that power away, then added another maintenance spell for us
stoic needle
I have a good feeling that the giga borrowed power is coming back in the next few patches
gusty mirage
Making envenom refresh snd would be the best thing they can do for sun tbh
Sin*
Without any crazy overhauls
stoic needle
I don't really agree
stoic needle
Sin would be even more boring with less buttons to press
rocky ruin
the snd become obsolete again
gusty mirage
Zoldyks
lament dove
I'm not sure, with covenants they went into the 1-2% power per ability direction
stoic needle
I have no trouble keeping 97%+ uptime on SnD, rupture and garotte
rocky ruin
the virtual blizz con in february?
gusty mirage
Aye
rocky ruin
does anyone know when?
stoic needle
I think they are trying to keep the covenants tame because they're just the first part of the borrowed power they have planned for the expansion
gusty mirage
does anyone know when?
19th and 20th
radiant pollen
is anyone running venth on ass?
rocky ruin
some live the dreams i heard
stoic needle
It's complete trash
stoic needle
I was for a month and some change before I got sick of it
radiant pollen
I just want to try bleed build with that haste. But I feel like the uptime is not good enough that it will just be shit
gusty mirage
Venth’s only somewhat decent for outlaw ST, but even then flag is hot garbo
stoic needle
Thrill seeker procs during mechanics so you don't actually get the benefit from it a large percentage of the time
rocky ruin
i would only go venthyr for daggers transmog nothing else
radiant pollen
yeah I was running venth on my horde but now night on ali as night is too good
stoic needle
Night fae is just smooth as butter
gusty mirage
Night fae and kyrian seem to be the best bet for all 3 specs
stoic needle
First strike is gonna be huge for m+
radiant pollen
yeah and next week it becomes top pretty sure in terms of deeps
gusty mirage
It’s nice to see assa coming in to its own, and these damage buffs show that blizzard is at least looking at the numbers
Maybe the tier sets in 9.1 will make it shine again, so I can stop being a pirate in raid
radiant pollen
lol, pirates are pog
main forge
I really hope they don't add tier set bonuses like they did in previous expansions. But sort of happy about bringing back class sets for gear though.
I hope they add more conduits or another row or three of soulbind abilities to make specs shine, or a couple more legendaries.
main forge
Yeah, that is more interesting, being able to choose your abilities. Being stuck with a lame one like "tricks of the trade gives another player 5% more damage" is lame
gusty mirage
That’d actually be insanely fun
stoic needle
Yeah like, you have to choose one level 1 utility ability, then one lvl 2 medium power effect, and then 1 lvl 3 super effect
stoic needle
That gives the opportunity to reintroduce old set bonuses like kingsbane
gusty mirage
That’d be brilliant tbh
stoic needle
Or shrouded suff or eb
gusty mirage
Go work for blizz pls, ty
stoic needle
Lmao I swear if I had a degree in game design I would
main forge
They don't pay, so... you really don't even need a degree in game design
gusty mirage
True
main forge
And if they have degrees in game design, lets be real and it still isn't helping them
main forge
You don't. But you need to work on shit to get there
oblique flare
Won't ion make the final decisions anyway at the end of the day? what do degrees matter
main forge
If you went and worked for companies and helped make video games, you could get into blizzard.
Experience trumps degrees.
copper lotus
what's the issue with assassination, is it only that it doesn't do enough damage, or will its issues be fixed with gear
in future tiers*
main forge
Remember Blizzard hired all those people from elitist jerks, not for their degrees but for the fact that they were mathematically eviscerating their game.(maybe envenoming in this channel)
stoic needle
It's just under tuned
The base damage of the abilities is too low
And we don't have any broken covenant abilities to carry us
copper lotus
do you think the buffs tuesday will do enough to bring it back into a good spot
stoic needle
BRING BACK SEPSIS VANISH
main forge
We only were decent at the end of BFA because of broken borrowed power
stoic needle
It'll be competitive with the other specs but rogue as a whole isn't competitive
main forge
Our versatility is very limited, at least for most raid fights anyhow
gusty mirage
do you think the buffs tuesday will do enough to bring it back into a good spot
I believe the buff puts it within 2 or 3% of sub, which makes it more viable
oblique flare
dw guys, assa is a scaling spec 
stoic needle
It's 1% of sub and 3% of outlaw
main forge
scaling when secondaries get nerfed at higher levels now lol
and still puts us in the middle of the pack of other classes with more raid utility lol
stoic needle
If they shifted our damage profile, like buffed the damage of our bleeds and poison DoT by like 40% we would be something special
royal lantern
scaling when secondaries get nerfed at higher levels now lol
scaling
is a meme
a gigantic meme
copper lotus
hm okay
stoic needle
Then we'd have powerful damage that didn't rely on uptime and an execute
oblique flare
nono guys, assa will scale with better gear
gusty mirage
It’s turned into a giant meme in my guild after some dude tried telling me it scales better than the other 2 specs
royal lantern
that weird "SPEC X GETS GOOD AFTER SOME TIME CUS OF SCALING" is a thing people say cus they dont know how stuff works
copper lotus
cause i got pretty bored of outlaw and sub takes a massive brain to play, so i was thinking about trying assassin
royal lantern
main forge
But scaling sometimes is a thing, but probably not this expansion. There were times where more primary stat gave a bigger bonus to a class then the same amount to another class
stoic needle
It doesn't take a massive brain to macro symbols and shadow dance together
royal lantern
But scaling sometimes is a thing, but probably not this expansion. There were ti...
its not a thing for fking ages at this point
copper lotus
either way
if assassin isn't going to be at least viable and i can push enough damage to do stuff then idk if its worth trying 🥲
royal lantern
everytime people say "X SCALES BAD" i remember them that WW monk is always used as an example of "bad scaling" but was the #1 spec in the last legion tier
or that people always say bm scales bad, and it was
BROKEN AS HELL during the last tier of bfa
gusty mirage
if assassin isn't going to be at least viable and i can push enough damage to do...
It’s been viable since the last buff tbh
royal lantern
but ye, scaling is not a meme:)
copper lotus
i mean but in mythic people are barely pushing 4k dps on assassin, and thats
like
a meme dps
royal lantern
sin litearlly was the best rogue spec for denathrius after the first set of buffs allready lol
stoic needle
i mean but in mythic people are barely pushing 4k dps on assassin, and thats
That's because people don't have the gear and the legendaries to do proper dps with it
copper lotus
on mythic?
main forge
yeah when you have been gearing for outlaw and sub all tier... you aren't going into mythic with Sin gearing
copper lotus
that's fair
drifting light
I wanna give sin a spin but I have like 5% haste when in sub gear
main forge
and if you have stayed sin until the latest buffs, you were being dumb as hell
gusty mirage
I wanna give sin a spin but I have like 5% haste when in sub gear
If you haven’t gotten pvp/conquest gear, ton of haste vers gear from there
copper lotus
night fae is still the best covenant i assume
stoic needle
My haste actually went down after getting a bunch of conquest gear
copper lotus
for sin
drifting light
Been gearing a lot through that with vers/crit
main forge
What are the Sin stats nowadays anyhow?
gusty mirage
My haste actually went down after getting a bunch of conquest gear <:SucksMan:58...
Been getting that fat crit/vers gear huh?
main forge
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
stoic needle
The PvP gear is more vers than haste
gusty mirage
True
stoic needle
So my haste went down from 21% to 17%
stoic needle
Not really
Mastery is worst
Crit is better for AOE
Vers is better for single target
If you focus on m+ you want more crit
But otherwise crit and vers are interchangeable
gusty mirage
Yeah
stoic needle
Yeah
Honestly in a lot of ways I think that first strike will replace shrouded suffocation for us
main forge
Yeah, I might make it this week.... IDK was just about to go outlaw because sub has been good but is quite unforgiving.
stoic needle
It's not guaranteed cp but it fills the same role
main forge
Its the easier spec to pick up
gusty mirage
Dust em off and give it a go
copper lotus
is it easier or harder than outlaw?
stoic needle
way easier
its just spinning plates
keep rupture, garotte and snd up
try to keep up 5 bleeds of either rupture and garotte in M+ trash packs
gusty mirage
Just keeping up maintenance stuff and maximizing your burst windows
copper lotus
oh alrighty
stoic needle
you can kinda just braindead press shiv on CD and do fine
warm portal
how is that easyer then outlaw tho
main forge
Less shit to really worry about.
stoic needle
but to maximize it you want to press shiv on CD, but try to refresh snd and rupture and garotte before shiv comes off cd
main forge
No buffs or multiple things to track
iron orchid
Yeah imo outlaw is easier
stoic needle
your rotation changes dynamically on outlaw
copper lotus
there's lots of rules you have to remember with outlaw
iron orchid
I mean more braindead
stoic needle
sin is always the same thing
main forge
Don't have to worry about dispatch and the other finisher....
iron orchid
OL you just press everything once it is up and go
real bay
outlaw is definitely not easier, fast paced and a lot of shit to keep track of
copper lotus
never seen that before
gusty mirage
OL you just press everything once it is up and go
Essentially yeah
But let’s be real, no rogue spec is super complex to begin with
main forge
Its pretty much either rupture or envenom, or snd. and its much easier to track that shit imo
copper lotus
sub was very difficult
iron orchid
I feel like sin is just harder to master
main forge
Sub is the most complex, outlaw is probably tied with it, Sin is the easiest.
copper lotus
idk
main forge
23 button presses I swear for sub opener lol
stoic needle
i feel like outlaw is harder to master cuz of the APM
gusty mirage
Sub’s just more punishing tbh, you essentially live or die in maximizing your dance windows. And a brain fart can gut your dps for an entire pull
carmine flare
sub is just really punishing
you need to be very good with matching timers with cooldowns
main forge
Sub has the biggest drop when you get out of line with cooldowns
fallow notch
Is the consensus that Sin as a spec is fine just a tad "undertuned". Or are there Deeper lying problems. If yes what?
copper lotus
thats embarrassing 
main forge
Deeper underlying problems... just wasn't tuned properly, hence the 20% buff since launch
stoic needle
i think that it needs a baseline aoe finisher
fallow notch
Well thats not deep. Thats just numbers
main forge
I mean the rotation is fine, and all that jazz... it is the slowest of all three specs for APM... and waiting for energy
stoic needle
or the damage of bleeds needs to be massively buffed to compensate if they dont want to give us a baseline aoe finisher
gusty mirage
i think that it needs a baseline aoe finisher
Don’t worry it took them an entire expansion for sub to get theirs, maybe we’ll get one by 10.0 lol
stoic needle
fallow notch
Hence tuned. Im asking about certain gimmicks or mechanics that make Sin bad when not tuned properly
main forge
Nah, there isn't anything inherently broken about sin
fleet whale
my main problems with sin
is snd, and bad talent tree
everything else is fine mostly
main forge
it could use more stuff, and a heavy refresh on a few talent rows
stoic needle
yeah the talent tree is the closest to a fundamental problem with sin
oblique flare
for pvp, the pvp talents sin has are absolute ass and outdated
gusty mirage
You don’t feel like venomrush is a viable talent?
fleet whale
well speaking of pvp talents
oblique flare
and regular talents are also ass
fleet whale
system shock would actually be really cool
stoic needle
yes
main forge
yeah I was talking about it the other night. but there is like 3 tiers that could just have complete redos on them
stoic needle
make system shock a regular passive
oblique flare
it's a 5cb passive and it's tied to a pvp talent, like, blizz you srs?
stoic needle
each spec has like a 'reward' for playing it properly
stoic needle
outlaw and sub get CDR on dance and all of their CDs when you 'play properly'
main forge
leeching poison talent could use a buff to ... idk 15% instead of it being 10%?
stoic needle
due to enveloping shadows and restless blades
real bay
tbh gouge should be baseline for all specs, will never play sin in m+ without extra intrrrupt
fleet whale
10% leech is fine imo
oblique flare
same with creeping venom, like some stuff don't even feel like they deserve to be pvp talents but rather part of the core
stoic needle
sin gets... more energy
fleet whale
considering havoc's leech talent is 5%
stoic needle
which is fine but not super impactful
gusty mirage
We get energy regen for throwing up bleeds 
stoic needle
system shock would be the perfect reward
main forge
Yeah some of our pvp talents are completely lackluster
stoic needle
tbh gouge should be baseline for all specs, will never play sin in m+ without ex...
subterfuge garotte works fine, especially with sepsis
oblique flare
exsanguinate feels also out of place with Alacrity being a must
honest lake
First strike conduit is better than a second potency, right?
stoic needle
yes
fleet whale
on an off topic note, dance cdr is a huge reason to why sub is a shaky progress spec
oblique flare
exsang should be base kit
fleet whale
nah exsang should be gone imo
real bay
yea true but still would like it
fleet whale
focus more on poisons
gusty mirage
Exsang needs a buff or be retired
stoic needle
we simmed exsang and it's mathematically impossible for it to be better than alacrity
oblique flare
or gone, idc, but not a talent with alacrity being a thing
main forge
Poison bomb needs to go too imo
dark hollow
weird question: what makes septic shock so good for m+ over other ST conduits like well-placed steel?
stoic needle
either poison bomb or CT needs to be turned into a basline finisher
main forge
and hidden blades needs a buff or something.
oblique flare
poison bomb is nice, either increased % proc or finisher :p
stoic needle
@dark hollow it's not, that part of the pin is kinda outdated
WPS is 100% better than septic shock
oblique flare
hidden blades is a fkn meme too
gusty mirage
Finisher would be nice for PB
dark hollow
ah, word. so NF sins are running th esame conduits, m+ and ST?
stoic needle
yeah, lethal poisons and WPS. septic shock is for PVP tbh
but it'll be lethal poisons and FS next week
main forge
The first two talent rows and the last two talent rows are where we need the most changes
Master Assassin + MA lego lol
stoic needle
i kinda like MA
sterile jackal
btw what do you think about using MA as replacement for zold? I dont have any ash for sin lego
oblique flare
MA talent is fine, as you will move away from MA later on
gusty mirage
It gives you super Saiyan master assassin
stoic needle
btw what do you think about using MA as replacement for zold? I dont have any as...
it works but it's a lot worse
the zoldyck execute niche is the entire reason for sin existing
versed thicket
Can i run a sword + dagger?
oblique flare
you will also have first strike with NF, you basically will have 50 + 25 + your base crit chance, free MA
gusty mirage
No. Need two daggers for mutilate
main forge
Can i run a sword + dagger?
No. Daggers only.
versed thicket
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
sterile jackal
the zoldyck execute niche is the entire reason for sin existing
yea, i know... seem i will hve to wait 2 weeks to try sin on raid
stoic needle
you will also have first strike with NF, you basically will have 50 + 25 + your ...
this is gonna be big
versed thicket
How many secs of buff?
stoic needle
the talent is 3, the conduit is 5
versed thicket
So 8 secs with 100% critt chance? If i have 25% stat?
stoic needle
no
stoic needle
With a new target
stoic needle
idk about arenas but it'll be bis for M+
i wonder if first strike + MA could beat out subterfuge in M+
versed thicket
Why in talent section of pins there are 0s?
potent crescent
what you guys using to track bleeds on mutli target
stoic needle
plater nameplates
lament dove
anyone using poisoned katar? I tried once but didn't see big magic, so I figured I just stick with poison dmg + bone spike condiuts since those are for ST as well
honest silo
Why in talent section of pins there are 0s?
It doesn’t matter what you pick here. Mostly utility talents.
stoic needle
poisoned katar is like just.. very meh. you need a sustained large target count for it to be worth it over others
and with first strike coming there won't be much point to using it at all
i'd only consider it as a 2nd potency
but you need prio damage more than you need aoe damage at that point so WPS is usually better]
stoic needle
well yea i was considering LP to be mandatory
ionic hemlock
Is sin getting another buff soon? rumor a friend heard and mentioned the other night
fleet whale
it's getting a 5% aura buff on tuesday
ionic hemlock
Oh neat. How do you think it's gonna be for M+?
ionic hemlock
I think thats' reasonable. But good to know maybe I will farm some daggers ;x
stray imp
so the Zoldyack over Dashing?
royal lantern
yes
shrewd helm
Zoldyk on pants or feet?
tribal mauve
legs
opaque mauve
hows sin going to compare in ST now against outlaw ?with the buff
fleet whale
sim a little lower, but will bet better than outlaw in some aspects
opaque mauve
i see a new pin 😛
lilac anchor
Is the sin buff already reflected in raidbots sims btw?
iron orchid
Nope
probably won't be until tomorrow night at best
or maybe tuesday morning NA time
lilac anchor
Awesome. Thanks!
full tide
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
lament dove
does it make sense to use CT under 30% on single target with zoldyck?
potent crescent
On huntsman, is it higher priority to envenom over keeping double rupture up
shrewd helm
how bad is verse for sin?
gusty mirage
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
gusty mirage
probably doomblade
rose condor
Doomblade or MA I'd say. I'd love someone to run the Vendetta CDR one and report back 😄
ember oasis
what you guys using to track bleeds on mutli target
i made a custom set of weakauras for bleeds/poisons on multi target
potent crescent
mind sharing?
ember oasis
ill pm them to you
potent crescent
cheers
pulsar sluice
honestly since sin's goes are pretty shit that vendetta leggo does look interesting
uneven summit
ocean bear
old snow
What legendary would assa use in pvp?
you most likely want master assassin, with doomblade being an alternative
and vendetta legendary id say just isnt good, simply cause its not enough, if it gave more cd then mby but 1 s every 50 energy wont rly make you win i feel
carmine sierra
Thanks, I'll get master assassin since its bis for m+ too
old snow
lets say you get about 30 s reduction out of 2 min, that still makes you having a lot less pressure for whole min 30 that doomblade would give you with 15% increase on envenom, or master assassin would bring with dmg bombs
lean geyser
So with this upcoming buff sin going to be good?
fleet whale
yes
lean geyser
Noice
fleet whale
people trying to bring back NYA sin lol
low girder
But should we take exsang with zoldyck?????
balmy condor
fleet whale
i would question why people would want to play with CT in SL though
unless if you hate casting envenoms i guess
lament dove
I was asking about m+ since I have CT there to begin with, not for raid bosses:)
balmy condor
Why would that make a difference
Raid boss is single target, dungeon boss is single target
lament dove
true
safe barn
opener with ma still is garrote?
balmy condor
No
safe barn
mutilate?
spice spire
grim mason
arms war and frost dk getting 5%, wut are they underperforming in....kill things faster?
fleet whale
frost dks are quite bad in raid
grim mason
Ahh so its pve then
fleet whale
and this buff puts sin in a good place sim wise
grim mason
but they dont tell u that lol
plain thistle
probably all next week buffs are because of PvE
fleet whale
right now its a buff for both
fleet whale
assassin will prolly be pretty decent in pvp now though with this buff
low girder
If it's not it's gonna be related to pve
mint peak
Assass is already decent in pvp
old snow
decent at best, not rly much more than that
5% will def help but its still not at the best position
short void
whats the best legendary for assassin for both pvp and pve, sorry for butting in, new player :S
old snow
for pvp ma or doomblade, for pve if im nto wrong dashing for single target and zolydick for multi target
tepid sable
Doomblade would be universal for pve and pvp
Zoly is best for all forms of pve content
heady island
for pvp ma or doomblade, for pve if im nto wrong dashing for single target and z...
Zol all the time even if dashing is twchnically better due to as soon as you move anything, Zol wins
tepid sable
But most rogues will tell you MA for pvp since it can be used on all specs pvp wise
And can be decent for most specs mythic + wise
old snow
not only that, but ma is a better choice for assa pvp imo
tepid sable
There are some nutty assassination tricks you can pull of with MA
Like stack bleed vanish and watch them all have 100% crit rate
short void
if i have only 1 option for legendary for now which should be the go to? (i play both pve and pvp)
short void
so that i can be useful both in pve and pvp
balmy condor
Like stack bleed vanish and watch them all have 100% crit rate
And do no damage in the process 
tepid sable
Yeah probably it was just fun to see
old snow
yup, your dots dont rly do anything, onyl garrote over the course of its duration
tepid sable
But sin doesn't do any dmg anyways haha
old snow
you would be suprised
tepid sable
In pvp compared to sub
balmy condor
Yeah the damage is actually not bad
tepid sable
Yeah I main sin it's more of a joke
tepid sable
My guild cracks on me all the time
tepid sable
For me sticking with the spec since the beginning
I mainly raid I just get carried by our ww mnk or did when I tried the whole arena shabang
But it didn't really interest me as much as raiding so I tipped my hat to him and just went back to focusing on pve but I do have zoly and ma both at 235 and ma collects dust due to personal playstyle
old snow
aight, but your guild is prob underestimating assa in pvp tho, and with upcoming buffs in pve too
you gotta believe in the dream and show them wrong
tepid sable
Absolutely hahaha
old snow
nah its envenom
you can easily do the same kill burst without sepssi
each envenom does between 12 and 15k
and you can dish out 2 of them while keeping the healer silenced
tender fjord
Ill link you a YT vid where a guy spikes to 24k dps for a bit, but big part is envenom
Ive been living the assa dream today as well, been loving it
Can burst higher in pvp than with sub, but just less often
old snow
and if you add up melle, dots ticking and your healer doing soem dam you can push kill in 2 globals without sepsis
old snow
ye honestly i have been playing with discs the whole time, decided to try playing with pally and jumped from 2.1k to 2.2k without barely losing
tender fjord
But how do you silence the healer and then go for big envenoms?
tender fjord
Garotte on healer, then swap to kill target?
tender fjord
Yeah okay thought you didn’t as you specified healer as silenced
But makes sense mb
old snow
ye what i meant is you garrote from stealth so he cant use defensives and then burst 2 envenoms to kill him
tender fjord
Although sometimes other dps can apply more pressure then I can, and then the pala just can’t hold on any longer
And when it is a dh or ww, if I try to peel with anything other than a stun or blind I just make them cleave us, and we are in double trouble
Ill look up the YT vid, brb
old snow
dh isnt not rly a problem but ww is the worst matchup for us
if you dont kill the healer at start against ww you are almost guaranteed to lose
tender fjord
This one
When he opens details meter sepsis is huuuge
Yeah my hpala friend is 195ilvl so he just gets deleted after he has used his cds
We’re kinda on a clock every game
old snow
sepsis is insane but it will almost always get dispelled
old snow
you cant rly depend on sepsis
old snow
and just from seeing it for, dont play leaching poison play elusiveness and dont use creeping ever
creeping does 0% dmg
mind-numbing however actually does a lot of dmg
tender fjord
Yeah, he says as well he can’t play with elusiveness
old snow
wdym he cant play with elusiveness
tender fjord
I don’t understand, it’s pretty easy haha
You expect dam, you press feint
Low cd anyway, no rocket science
tender fjord
Sepsis dmg almost made me switch covenants haha, but I’ll hold out until max renown anyway because that’s when we will get to know stuff
old snow
but ye its all pretty much standarnised, with things i see him picking wrong is creeping and leeching
tender fjord
And serrated bone spike rocks kinda, very low energy cost and it’s a budget MfD
If you have it on all three enemies, you hit it once more and it will give you 4cp
old snow
ye but it doesnt rly do that much dam, but what you get from it is more value on doomblade if you decide to go that path (altho im not 100% sure doomblade benefits from serrated)
tender fjord
I honestly will have to look up what doom blade does
I use MA, as I used that as well for sub
old snow
it increases your envenom by5% for evey bleed
dont get me wrong, i still think ma is def better, but doomblade is an alternative option
old snow
doombalde has a bleed of its own, and that garrote and rupture is 3, and then serrated is 4
tender fjord
Aaah
old snow
so it would be 20% if doomblade benefits from serrated
tender fjord
That might add up eventually
old snow
and also during kidney it would be 5
tender fjord
It’s still pretty dependent on crits to do huge burst tho, I like the consistency of restealthing and going
If they’d nerf the stealth shield conduit I’d switch in a heartbeat
winter gale
Is alot of mythic ppl going assa now?
tender fjord
Feel like in a budget monk/warrior if we’re trying to go for big sustain tho
Might try it out eventually
But will first make my raid legendary
old snow
and the reasone i say ma is better is cause 1) current state of pvp is all about dmg bombs, it doesnt matter how much dmg you do cause it will get outhealed, its more about when you do the dam, and 2) doomblades dmg just feels a bti underwhelming for me
tender fjord
Wholeheartedly agree
You have to delete someone before their partner can react
I’m not playing damp for fun haha
patent siren
pp
tender fjord
But thanks for the discussion, you’ve made me try the assa dream today and I loved it. gz on 2200 again!
old snow
np man, and thx, ill be pushing for 2.4k next week
ill be also streaming it
so if your interested in seeing how i play it out you can come stop by
tender fjord
Most likely will, I have a lot to learn still lol
tribal mauve
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
rustic bear
Ass will be better than outlaw in M+ what do u think?
balmy condor
Not happening
native turtle
rustic bear
damn bad news! thanks
hollow zephyr
Think sin will ever be the best raid spec?
balmy condor
It was for the last 6 years
hollow zephyr
In this expansion
hollow zephyr
I haven’t seen the new figures
fleet whale
and while it won't be outlaw tier, i think it will still be pretty good in M+
hollow zephyr
I know after the last buff we where still low
strange python
they'd have to still add a lot of damage to any of our specs to make us REALLY worth the raid spot though so long as they don't do anything about our raid utility
but buffs are good
fleet whale
sin should be quite strong on sire progression
hollow zephyr
It would be amazing if they made our numb poison effect bosses
fleet whale
not strong enough to make people go out of their way to recruit them
but strong nonetheless
strange python
it does
fleet whale
eh, there is better ways to add utility
hollow zephyr
Ahh fair enough actually
fleet whale
i wouldn't mind them adding swiftblade's cunning again honestly
strange python
^
fleet whale
group wide 5% haste buff
agile phoenix
Any geared assa sims i can look at??
hollow zephyr
Isn’t there a pvp one
That gives 5% haste
How’s your dps on mytbic +.
I feel like the sin legendary would be amazing for progress
tired adder
good on boss, sad on trash
strange python
sin is still really not for mythic + unfortunately
hollow zephyr
Will the buff help with that
hollow zephyr
I really want to play sin but I do a lot of mythic +
strange python
unless it was really busted
I mean you CAN
it just won't be "optimal"
if they put shrouded suffocation back into the mix we'd get better with sin
but even then out pacing the burst meta of raw damage would be tough
although... shrouded suff with iron wire would be pretty fucking sick in spires
hollow zephyr
They wouldn’t give us anything like that during this patch
Would need to be a main patch with big changes
hollow zephyr
Abs it’s annoying because we need to make Lego’s based on what we play
It’s not easy just to change spec
strange python
it was basically a given the moment we knew they'd be involved though
we were all prepared
at least we get like 1100 ash a week
you don't REALLY have to wait that long
stoic needle
At least now you can pick instead of it being rng
stoic needle
Man
strange python
129439087345987345934743%
stoic needle
If I got stuck with celerity and finality only
When what I wanted was zoldyck
I'd quit
Fuck that
strange python
When I came back to the game after a year off after tanaan
I played a DH
my giants ring was the 2nd to last leggo I got
rough times
fuck rng
stoic needle
I've got MA, doomblade and celerity lvl 2 and zoldyck lvl 4
strange python
by the time I had it I had already switched my main to my rogue and was actually having fun
shrewd helm
I have 190 MA 190 Zold 210 Celrity and 210 Akaari
stoic needle
Not sure if I want to keep pumping MA or Doomblade next
main forge
Just MA rank4 ring probably getting zold now for rank 4
Being playing sub since week 2.
stoic needle
I don't play sub but I match sub rogues with the same ilvl as me
Its gonna be even closer after the buff
stoic needle
Lmao
Yeah that's not happening
Reroll something like boomkin if you want to do that
hollow zephyr
I’ve heard monks don’t scale to well
stoic needle
That's false
hollow zephyr
Aww really I was hoping to ply the long game
stoic needle
Scaling isn't a real thing anymore
Monks will scale as well as the borrowed power they are given
Same with every other class
And even by the scaling metrics from that old post rogues 'scale' worse than monks do
strange python
yea last xpac monks just couldn't abuse corruptions the way stupid dumbass 2 button destro lock could
strange python
any conversation around scaling always originated with a classes overall secondary stats anyway
with DR involved in the way that it is and the adjustment of secondaries by comparison to your main stat it doesn't really matter anyway
at least not in the way that people understand it
stoic needle
I got 3 MAs <:peophammer:590832416138985472>
Why do you have 3 MAs lmao
strange python
^ insanity
oblique flare
I went first one ring, but it had haste vers because before shadowlands they mentioned something about soft secondary stats cap starting at 25% upwards, so i was thinking of balancing my stats, then i went with wrist for mast/vers, and then i went for another ring with mast/ vers since i had a good wrist but crap ring
stoic needle
I thought about crafting a 2nd one because mine is vers mast and haste vers would be better for sin
oblique flare
tbf, i just wish they would offer a stat change at the rune npc guy
stoic needle
I wouldn't be surprised if they add it later
strange python
recrafting leggos for stats is just not worth it
just build your stats AROUND the leggo you've made
you have a bunch of other gear slots to do it with
oblique flare
yeah fair enough, was early weeks so 
stoic needle
Lol I remember all of the people calling me dumb for crafting MA week 1
strange python
I dare say they'll add some sort of "refund for a portion of Soul Ash" at some point though
lol same @stoic needle
strange python
I still crafted finality for sure
stoic needle
I regret spending the ash on celerity even
strange python
fucking good leggo
oblique flare
i crafted akaari and scoundrel, but they're eh :p really thought scoundrel would be huge, but it's ok with a bunch of adds around
stoic needle
Scoundrel seems good until you realize that you have to envenom to proc it
oblique flare
yea
stoic needle
It's gonna be big if we get to use 2 legendaries
strange python
Finality should have been a neutral legendary tbh
that is actually a really interesting idea, and would work perfectly fine lol
it would be a little triggering on sin though
stoic needle
Right?
strange python
yeah
the execute range is always good
plus when we get additional leggos noone will be complaining about zold
fleet whale
i would love to use doomblade and zold
strange python
or dashing and zold
stoic needle
It could buff 3 abilites for each spec. CT, rupture and envenom for sin, rupture, evis and BP for sub, and dispatch, BTE and idk something else for outlaw
strange python
wait
fleet whale
also in a new preach vid about the buffs
strange python
would the doomblade bleed be buffed by zold I wonder?
stoic needle
Dashing and zold would probably be bis but I would use doomblade and zold anyway
fleet whale
he mentioned the S word a lot lol
stoic needle
I hate youtubers
fleet whale
he says rogues scale well so i can only imagine lol
fleet whale
I wonder if youtubers hate this discord
stoic needle
I don't know man they never come in here
If they did I'd treat them the same as anyone else
fleet whale
its just that this discord is on top of like everything regarding TCing
so the data is there, but then you have people like preach making his comments
stoic needle
That's why I don't think they come in here at all
strange python
to be fair, 3rd party stuff is important in the field of data validation, and if they have the concept that we're a likeminded think tank then it does benefit both sides of the field to be seperate
he has the way he interprets his data
stoic needle
I still think there should at least be a line or communication to share results
stoic needle
I genuinely think he's just making shit up
strange python
communication is key
I don't think they're making it up
they're just interpreting data differently
wether or not that's CORRECT
that's different
fleet whale
I mean assassination probably does scale well, it's just that i doubt will be able to get to those stats in SL
look what happens to sin in torghast if you stack secondary powers
stoic needle
look what happens to sin in torghast if you stack secondary powers
It's glorious
fleet whale
i was actually surprised i was watching some streams of other classes doing torghast
stoic needle
But yeah, no way we will ever get that much stats in the real game
fleet whale
sin is legit s tier in torghast lol
stoic needle
It makes sense sense like we're all % damage modifiers
fleet whale
and a ton of damage sources
stoic needle
Subterfuge, vendetta, zoldyck, doomblade
Nightstalker
When you get to have multiple of those at once things get nutty
First steps lmao
oblique flare
tbf, other classes legendaries feel nuttier
not sure how much we will benefit off of 2 legends compared to others if they won't tune D:
fleet whale
i mean we used Zoldyck and MA back in Legion as our two leggos
zoldyck was exactly the same, MA was a second longer
and we were fine
tawny barn
assa really lacks an aoe lego tbh
strange python
aoe has never really been sins strong point
tawny barn
i hope they add some in future
strange python
our "aoe" is cleave, and our cleave is in zold
ebon zephyr
Idk, I was pulling over 2 mil dps on last boss in twisting corridors as sub
Died in 11 seconds
tawny barn
i mean a lego thats fully for aoe
fleet whale
don't think it's neccessary for sin
strange python
^
tawny barn
other classes have only aoe legos
fleet whale
And?
stoic needle
We already do pretty damn competitive aoe without an aoe leggo
strange python
I mean you could use something like bloodfang
if you really wanted
but really zold + cleave would still do better
stoic needle
Having execute on literally everything you dot is pretty ridiculous when you think about it
Not even UHDKs can do that
strange python
aoe is jut not your strong point as a spec at all
tawny barn
zold is noty aoe lego, like its an exucute lego thats decent for aoe
like come on ppl
stoic needle
If our bleeds and poisons did good damage we would be insane with zoldyck
tawny barn
its only good coz the mount oif posinon dmg we do right now itys absurd
it will get nerfed
fleet whale
CT plus zold
tawny barn
literlly all our dmg is from poisons
stoic needle
Most of our aoe damage is bleeds though
fleet whale
is enough for sin aoe
strange python
the work a leggo would have to do to make sin an "aoe capable spec" would be fucking insane
stoic needle
The dot part of our poisons does less than rupture and garotte
strange python
it would be a broken leggo
stoic needle
I think sin is already aoe capable if ct was baseline
tawny barn
i did tuns mythic plus, i think ct is overpowered as fuck and so is the poisons, its all our dmg
tghe bleeds especially rupture is dogshjit
deadly poison should never do more aoe dmg then freaking rupture
quasi ledge
Why not? Imagine how shit it would be to HAVE to apply Rupture to all targets
stoic needle
FoK applying deadly poison is a godsend tbh lol
tawny barn
all our dmg is poisons + auto attacks, its pretty depressing
stoic needle
No it's not
stoic needle
Autos are not my highest damage anymore by a long shot especially in m+
strange python
people actually suck at maximising autos anyway
stoic needle
It's poisons, then garotte, then rupture then melee
strange python
pepole generally have fucking atrocious melee uptime %
strange python
The more haste you have the less true that is
careful, you're getting awfully close to that scaling conversation 😛
tawny barn
ye true but still way too much passive dmg
they need to bring back skill into the class
coz bleeds not doign much atm
and coz they keep giving us + all round dmg buff makes it worse and doesnt fix the problem
strange python
that's not necessarily true
your damage shifts around based on where you put your throughput in stats
eg, a DK gets pet and shadow damage from mastery, so pumping mastery has their pet/shadow damage scale upwards while other damage stays relatively stagnant
you get bleed and poison damage from taht source
same thing
but you also get faster ticks from haste
etc
it's a little more complex than "fix spec plz blizz"
lean geyser
What % haste do you want to be at as a sin rogue?
strange python
What % haste do you want to be at as a sin rogue?
whatever sims well for you
lean geyser
What’s a good number you would say
tawny barn
pretty much just go crit haste for single target
lean geyser
What about for pvp?
tawny barn
for aoe i dont know i tried simming dungeon slices but it seems not very accurate
dont know for pvp but i say its same as in bfa haste ver
any1 know any tc for dungeon slices
stoic needle
It's not scaling but the damage breakdown definitely changes as your stats change
tawny barn
which stat prio
stoic needle
coz bleeds not doign much atm
I 100% agree that they need to buff our bleeds
tawny barn
so it defo does matter
stoic needle
Dungeon Slice is weird because it puts a lot of focus on single target
strange python
I personally believe that the niches of the specs should be their major damage source
sin - bleeds/poisons
sub - shadow
OL - raw phys
raven egret
other stats are irrelevant
stoic needle
Idk tho tbh
I just got a bunch of 207 pvp gear and it's simming worse than the 200 ilvl haste focused gear I have from m+
Ilvl rule says the PvP gear should be strictly better but the sims say otherwise
low girder
on ST?
stoic needle
Yes
low girder
i'd like to see that sim tbh
tawny barn
ye for me same it says haste is top prio but i got liek 20 % allready
low girder
if you have it around
tawny barn
with hight crit
that doesnt seem right to me
im just gonna go sub m+ crit-vers its doing well tbh
low girder
oh, yeah sockets will throw a wrench in it
ornate gazelle
Is doomblade leggo buffed by necro bone spike bleed?
stoic needle
I don't think so
tawny barn
dooblade prob best for pvp?
stoic needle
The PvP gear doesn't become clear upgrades until I put sockets on it
tawny barn
or still ma?
stoic needle
The jury is out between MA and doomblade
low girder
i don't have like a hard number but on non-jewelry sockets usually outweigh somewhere around 6-9 ilvls
for me
that's for sub though
stoic needle
I think that MA fits the current burst meta in pvp more but as time goes on doomblade will become better and better
Because of ||scaling||
You can't burst someone with a bunch of vers
stoic needle
Meaning you can't reliably kill in the MA window as much anymore, and doomblade gives you the ability to kill outside of that
tawny barn
and i get clapped
stoic needle
Hp pools will get bigger and bigger too
Idk maybe I'm wrong that's just the way I see things evolving
strange python
Sins damage profile just isn't really that good of a fit to M+ really
stoic needle
I know that the one button kill macro for sub doesn't work anymore
tawny barn
im just happy i can acxtually compete on my assa
stoic needle
Sins damage profile just isn't really that good of a fit to M+ really
Why do you say that?
strange python
even at the tail end of 8.3 where you arguably were nuts due to smashing out constant 3 x super garottes
it still wasn't comparible to OL
stoic needle
I hear that sin gets better and better the higher keys you do and the longer the trash packs last
strange python
the profile of just high consistent uptime on everything always does well
now with caps that does PERHAPS change a bit
but probably not THAT much
tawny barn
assa is pad spec man
the longer mobs live the better
which is bad in mythic plus coz u prob die than
ornate gazelle
If you're gonna get restealths consistently and often, go with MA. If not, go with doomblade.
tawny barn
pad*
strange python
I hear that sin gets better and better the higher keys you do and the longer the...
people always assume this, BUT it never bares out
tawny barn
i think atm its very forgiving to play assa in mythic plus
as alot of our dmg is padssive
but the energy starvation is annoying
coz u need to play elobaroate planning
lean geyser
So in other words was it worth me investing time to level my rogue to 60 I only play sin? Worth it yes or no??
strange python
it's just got an awkward gameplay loop for m+
you get starved if you don't have bleeds
but bleeds are awkward to apply to multiple things while others are bursting everything down
so yeah it SEEMS on the surface like the answer is "as things live longer" but WE get stronger at the same pace of the instances as well
so things never really DO live longer
old snow
its worth it if you enjoy it
strange python
I was doing like 25s etc in 8.3 as sin
old snow
if you like the palystyle its def worth it
strange python
it's fun