idk the spell queueing on that fight can suck ballsack
#assassination
echo cargo
loud niche
theres only 2 bad parts, 1 if you have enough dps
thats when ghosts happen as the damned suck happens
rapid lance
what slot for zold?
balmy condor
legs usually
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
toxic locust
How is Assassin doing at the moment after its buff? I miss playing assassin and doing high dps in BFA lol i can never seem to do top dps while on sub as my rotation is all over the place
spice spire
smoky flame
stat prio on assassination for raid right now is still haste mastery right?
balmy condor
mastery is our worst stat
smoky flame
So haste crit then?
opaque island
I just got lucky on my new rogue and looted the boe 190 dagger. Should I sell it or use it?
balmy condor
190 is pretty low atm
if you have a couple friends to run m+ i'd just get rid of it
opaque island
Fresh 60 but yeah probably could sell
balmy condor
yeh the question is
how fast are you replacing it
cause you can replace 190's in like
cedar steeple
legendaries are expensive
balmy condor
2-3 hours
opaque island
Not sure this is an alt. Best thing might be to sell
Plus if I get it geared enough I can just win 20 arenas and ill get the 200 ones
lament dove
plus if you sell it you can probably almost buy some ilevel 213 gearpiece on AH for its price
hollow escarp
is there other reason why mutilate is better than ambush when not in Blindside talent other than combo point generation and poison application?
balmy condor
Nop
unique plume
Quick question about openers, do we use Vendetta straight after you garroted? Or do you wait to use Vendetta closer to when your first empowered garrotte is in pandemic and u are getting ready to vanish and reapply empowered garrote?
pine grove
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
celest ruin
@balmy condor whats your haste rn?
crimson palm
34%
hollow barn
Harsh 
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
balmy condor
<@!167090536602140682> whats your haste rn?
Maybe 17-18%
balmy condor
Quick question about openers, do we use Vendetta straight after you garroted? Or...
You vendetta after slice/rup/gar
rapid lance
Should you also shiv after those 3?
balmy condor
Isn’t really that important, but yeah
With sepsis it gets a little more confusing
But you pretty much just fire off the shiv after rup/slice/vend
And you’re good
bold trail
garotte --> Sepsis --> mut --> slice --> mut --> rupture -> mut --> mut --> shiv
Then Vendetta and etc, and stack as many envenoms as possible into the shiv window
modify as needed based on blindside procs and extra combo points (dashing scoundrel rng)
stoic needle
You want to try to sepsis right before shiv so sepsis gets buffed for the full duration I thought
bold trail
that's fair
stoic needle
Dashing gives energy not cp
bold trail
derp... correct. sorry about that.
honestly, any of the combo point generators that apply a dot are good to use during shiv window
but the most valuable/damaging thing during that window is empowered envenoms
balmy condor
garotte --> Sepsis --> mut --> slice --> mut --> rupture -> mut --> mut --> shiv
Why are using 2 muts before shiv
bold trail
starting from 0 cp to get to 5
bold trail
my thinking is: 1) want to get to 5 cp, with shiv active, prior to envenom. 2) want shiv to be active as long as possible for applications of dot and envenoms during that window (9 sec shiv window, 6 sec envenom dot)
is that wrong?
(and side note: I really am appreciating the input/feedback... thanks!!)
balmy condor
If you miss a cast because your holding for ~10 seconds at the start, any micro optimization to when you’re casting it is instantly just gone
Also because you hold it, you’re losing the sepsis in it
balmy condor
Id put the sepsis later
bold trail
I wish snapshotting worked still. Nightstalker Sepsis would be fun.
balmy condor
And do like garrote mut snd vend mut sepsis rupture shiv
balmy condor
I wish snapshotting worked still. Nightstalker Sepsis would be fun.
It does, but it doesn’t work on sepsis
bold trail
And do like garrote mut snd vend mut sepsis rupture shiv
I like this one, too... been playing with it.
Part of the issue is that there's just not a huge difference.
balmy condor
Yeah, you wouldn’t notice it really because from pull to pull you’re already experiencing variance
And +-1 shiv cast here or there isn’t going to be a noticeable change for human input
balmy condor
We’re talking specifically in terms of simulated gameplay here
Because these sorts of optimizations really don’t make a difference if you look at 5 pulls
It’s the small difference over a thousand pulls
bold trail
yeah, especially in the real world when, in fact, the chance of actually DOING the ideal opener is nil, given then number of external factors (tank moves the boss and you gotta run, someone drops poop on the ground, something requires hiding or cloaking... and so on)
Recognizing that Blizz is going to do whatever they please... I think that adding something fun to shadowstep (damage boost for x seconds, empowered strike of some kind, haste boost, or whatever)... would be cool
balmy condor
Well openers shouldn’t be a problem tbh
It’s just that the difference in dps here is very small
fervent beacon
Hey Whispyr, Im about to make r3 boots for 30% dmg boost, Im planning to do haste but whats the other stat should be
its a toss up between crits/vers, isn't it?
stoic needle
Crit will be better in AOE, vers better in single target and also for pvp
fleet whale
for me it changes between crit and verse
balmy condor
Hey Whispyr, Im about to make r3 boots for 30% dmg boost, Im planning to do hast...
Yeah like the others have said, it’s really a toss up, pick whatever you’d like
mighty zenith
In low mythic keys I find myself putting out 2 point raptures on 4 different mobs in a pack instead of 4-5. Is this fine or a dmg loss?
balmy condor
I don’t think you can without recrafting the legendary but I’ve honestly never tried
balmy condor
In low mythic keys I find myself putting out 2 point raptures on 4 different mob...
Would the targets survive a 4 cp rupture
mighty zenith
No I don’t think so
balmy condor
Then probably fine
jagged axle
mighty zenith
Ok thanks
balmy condor
Probably shouldn’t be copying how I play, I just give the theoretical answers xD
stoic needle
@lament flint zoldycks is just more versatile, the execute niche is very big for sin
for denathrius i just take standard talents. maybe you could go EP? and subterfuge ofc
fervent beacon
I just went haste/vers
balmy condor
Gar 3x from stealth into fok CT, then build fok’s into ruptures, if they don’t live long enough, either a low cp rupture or just an envenom. If I’m drowning in energy or it gets to that weird time where you don’t want to rupture but it’s still aoe, I’ll try to weave a couple envenoms in, always maintaining CT. On 2 target, single garrote on each into mut rupture on both, then CT, CDs on one and blow it up
That’s pretty much it
stoic needle
no
iron orchid
I would say no, cos the most important phase of the fight is p3, which is purely ST
stoic needle
it does more than CT
stoic needle
you dont CT til 3+ targets
which is only when the adds are up in p1(which should die instantly) and when the adds +denny+remornia are up in p2
the other adds in p2 die pretty fast as well, and remornia is all over the place
plus PB does decent aoe damage if it procs next to 2 targets
trust me, i had the same thought. ct just sucks on denathrius
i dont think there's any raid fights where CT is good tbh
balmy condor
you dont CT til 3+ targets
2
balmy condor
stoic needle
ahem
stoic needle
i mean i would love to be wrong
balmy condor
actions.dot+=/crimson_tempest,if=spell_targets>=2&remains<2+(spell_targets>=5)&effective_combo_points>=4
stoic needle
not CT til 3 feels weird
stoic needle
word
median mango
First time on sludge since I swapped to sin, do I want to vendetta pull or at first pillar?
balmy condor
how many pillars are you doing
balmy condor
pull, 2, lust on 4
median mango
alright, thats what I assumed. Thanks. 🙂
balmy condor
np
median mango
and 1st 3rd if we do 3 pillars, right?
balmy condor
yep
median mango
I really want exsanguinate to be good here, please tell me it is. 
median mango
Damnit, I knew you'd say that! 
I'll just give it a few tries when I feel like it. 🙂
balmy condor
I'll take a look at it
opaque island
I'm going to craft MA as my first legendary. Should I put vers haste on it? I will be playing all 3 specs
oblique flare
I'm going to craft MA as my first legendary. Should I put vers haste on it? I wi...
i think you'd rather want crit/ vers if you want to use it on all 3 specs
opaque island
Oh okay. Ill get a crit missive then. Thank you
oblique flare
all 3 specs benefit from these 2, while with haste you'd only benefit really playing assa, and when it comes to multi targets, it'd be wasted on sub, and outlaw generally has good energy reg as well
opaque island
Gotcha
oblique flare
btw. is it ring or wrist?
on wrist it would matter less due to it not offering that big of stats, so you can get away with it either way
opaque island
I picked wrist because that's all I could afford. Rings on my server are up to 20k for base version
oblique flare
Ah okay, wrist offer lower stats thus would be more forgiving with "wrong stats" (if you would go haste/vers for assa for example), though I'd go crit/ vers based on stat priority across all specs since you plan on using it on all 3.
opaque island
Alright. Good to know thank you
stoic needle
first steps + ns + CT in torghast is so much fun
royal lantern
just wanna say
you dont take haste for energy reg
dunno why people STILL say that lol
the energy gain from haste is so extremly low, it only makes a really small difference
oblique flare
because it synergies well with assa bleed tic rate and energy refund 
fickle thorn
hey gamers
balmy condor
hollow barn
Is there anything pointing to sin getting buffed in the near future?
hollow barn
Shame.
I was reluctant switching to sub, but it was fine. Still, kinda miss sin tho.
balmy condor
sin is mostly fine
royal lantern
sin and sub is not THAT different anymore
balmy condor
then don't play sub?
hollow barn
I think it's mostly that.
hollow barn
I'm just making small talk...
I'm fully aware that I have the option to not play it 😄
stoic needle
sin and sub are close enough you can just play sin
rigid mauve
anyone have any vods up of sin m+ runs? would like to see how you guys play
balmy condor
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/moQGegCY862Rawm1MQkz8 @faint harness sludge testing stuff
exsang still suck
faint harness
balmy condor
(if it wasn't obvious, all the exsang ones have timing checks for pillar)
sacred yarrow
Wait u actually made one?
balmy condor
made one what
sacred yarrow
Sludge apl
sacred yarrow
Ur an animal
balmy condor
I didn't spend a lot of time optimizing
sacred yarrow
Plug outlaw in there lol and variance will be huge
balmy condor
but it saves cds if there's a pillar in 40 sec
plain thistle
that sim is just the dps phase (pillar) ? or are you trying to re create the downtime too?
balmy condor
just adds pillars
The main thing was checking if exsang would be good
Which isn’t really affected by downtime
I did some downtime things (for every stomp)
And it basically just reduced them all an equal amount
So it’s whatever
fleet whale
exsang is so dead
balmy condor
correct
fleet whale
venom rush is stronger than exsang, that tells you how dead it is
though i think people forget that exsang was a bad talent through most of BFA and that was with stuff like SS
fleet whale
it really only got good and eventually strong when expedient started to get stacked
balmy condor
was also good in uldir
raven egret
we wiped on hc denath 150k hp today
fleet whale
sad
fleet whale
but anyway, TB was still far more popular than exsang in uldir, and it basically wasn't taken at all in either BDA or EP
balmy condor
so then it was a bad talent for like
half of bfa
and even then
not really that bad
fleet whale
i mean alacrity aside
frail fossil
putting any talent with alacrity
fleet whale
it's just not a great talent when standing a lone
frail fossil
OMEGALUL
fleet whale
it was bad without SS
raven egret
wdym talent alacrity is a base passive now 
fleet whale
and even with one SS trait pre NYA, TB simmed higher
Exsang sims lower than Venom Rush atm... that should tell you how bad it is
but perhaps exsang can be used in torghast if you stack all haste powers
frail fossil
venom rush would just be a fine baseline passive
fleet whale
a lot of assassination talents would be fine baseline passives
frail fossil
true
stoic needle
Finally unlocked my 2nd potency for niya, literally a 150 dps upgrade lol as much as getting a 220 weapon last week
plain thistle
wait 2 more weeks
burrs will be a lot more
especially for outlaw, since outlaw second conduit is pure trash
fallow otter
But korayn double dip
plain thistle
hmmm double dip with what? zoldick?
stoic needle
I think that's the logic yeah
Two phases of bonus damage
I manage to keep up with sub rogues with just zoldyck, should be interesting with WHT as well if they stick with grove invigoration
plain thistle
but simc should already be counting that, and burrs still better no?
stoic needle
I think it's bigger for outlaw though, because they can cleave off of full hp targets with blade flurry
I'll have to sim it and see tbh
fallow otter
Yeah im talking about flurry, and last I checked with koji, it's not in sim but it's happening
I switched to korayn to test out for keys, it did better than I thought it would, so we logs and found the double dip
plain thistle
for outlaw the double dip is the main target and the flurry cleave damage itself, both are receiving the korayn damage bonus?
fallow otter
Yes, also something weird going on with sinful enchant making it more consistent
Haven't got the latest in that one, koji pointed that one out
plain thistle
huh nice
rough scaffold
hey i'm the person who posted that 'lethal posions' cond was broken. (and yeah i have no idea how to use forums lol.) someone msg me that it was tested and working fine. So i tested again it is working for me too. so idk might be something to keep an eye on?
I don't have logs I literally used pen and paper, 2 other rogues said they got the same results that same day but i dont know how they came to that conclusion.
balmy condor
hi
I'm the rogue that can't post on forums
because its a cesspool
and never use it
so trust systems or whatever
here was the test I ran
rough scaffold
oh hey ty. One thing i found interesting is that all of us were using the conquest vendor version. I don't know if that's relevant but i thought id mention it.
rough scaffold
yeah that makes sense. Good looking out thanks. I never knew this place existed.
thought i might be the last mut rogue still breathing 🙂
balmy condor
well before the 8% you were
rough scaffold
Does feel a little better now
balmy condor
I swapped personally
rough scaffold
^^ best spec. I agree!
fallow otter
I swapped also but still red boi name 
raven egret
im stuck playing OL on prog but do everything as sin
rough scaffold
I think we ran a heroic with a Outlaw named whispry last week. Saped the shit out of everything and dmg of the charts
raven egret
whispyr fanboy
fallow otter
I played sub since prepatch then heroic prog, mythic prog until we hit hungering and now it's 215ilvl and does one 15 a week while I ww my way through prog
balmy condor
rough scaffold
Ohh shit! haha
I used to play a Orc combat rogue, i kinda liked it back then. Im trying to get into outlaw but... I cant stand not having shadow step
balmy condor
fallow otter
stoic needle
I wanted to play sin from the beginning, did one key with it and thought it was too bad to continue. Then I tried sub, sucked at it, switched to outlaw, didn't enjoy it, then decided to run sin anyway. that's when the 5% happened. Played sin the rest of the time, now I'm chilling
rough scaffold
I miss those 3 combo point garrotes. That would really help my game. I kinda feel like getting S&D and my bleeds up isnt as smooth as it could be. Maybe i just need more haste though idk.
fleet whale
2 CP garrotes from stealth would do wonders for the spec
rough scaffold
people were arguing about making S&D more like a passive somehow. I wouldn't argue with that either.
I just noticed they changed the blindside tallent. Maybe that means we are getting our old 'proc' attack back? That would be really cool
balmy condor
wdym
ambush with blindside is basically dispatch
I guess
if that's what you're referencing
rough scaffold
Yeah dispatch - I miss the old version that would give us a proc on crits or somthing
Your right - i'm still adjusting to using ambush in assassination. I guess its basically the same thing. I hate to give up master poisoner though
rough scaffold
ok so blindside is bis then?
balmy condor
for single target
rough scaffold
its true i never do.
balmy condor
does double the damage, but is just worse to use from stealth and vanish
really whack design
rough scaffold
why is it worse exactly?
balmy condor
It’s combo point thresholding mostly
rough scaffold
ic ty
balmy condor
why is it worse exactly?
The last big talk we had was this: #tc-research message
If you’re interested in that
strange python
when you vendetta does it affect all dots you have on the target immediatley, or do u need to re apply them to get the 30%
balmy condor
Vendetta affects everything variably through the entire debuff duration
also not really on topic for #tc-research :P
here is fine
topaz flint
Getting back into Assassin since Cataclysm, not much changed but it sure isn't all about mastery stacking like it used to be 
balmy condor
slice made mastery bad
austere silo
prisma monolithBOT
strange python
Any of you try exsang in pvp?
topaz flint
slice made mastery bad
I'm not sure i'm following, slice? like SnD?
balmy condor
yes
topaz flint
Because we can't reset SnD anymore via Envenom hits? sorry, I may be a bit more out of the loop here than expected
balmy condor
slice moves damage away from mastery-affected damage sources
less of your damage is affected by mastery
therefore vers/crit grows
tender sable
Read: aas
balmy condor
mastery falls
tender sable
17+ % of my damage is melee
And I know it’s normal
But I fail to see how it’s a good spec design
balmy condor
I think its fine tbh
unholy and beast master are like 40% pet damage
which is even more boring
so I think its literally just wow design
topaz flint
if it's fine, then what puts us in a low spot, number tweaking? genuine question
topaz flint
i'm guessing these band aids aren't taken well by other sins?
tender sable
sin rogue used to be a spec which will lose less damage from being away from target due to main source of damage were bleeds and poisons
now it vice versa almost, you need high uptime but with shorter than outlaw melee distance and its frustrating
balmy condor
but 99.9% of people don't understand or don't care about the numbers
balmy condor
yeah
balmy condor
yeah it doesn't show up as a cast in the combatlog
not even on WCL's end
it's just blizzard spaghetti
not tracking it
deft vault
i have 3% haste on my sin gear 
stoic needle
balmy condor
happens
viral meadow
General question. Does feinting reduce the damage you take on soaking spread group damage mechanics i.e. SL Generals?
balmy condor
yes
viral meadow
So the damage doesn't go to other group members
balmy condor
if an ability does 100 damage, spread to 10 members
each member takes 10 damage
then their reductions are calculated
so if 7 of those guys are mages
and they all block
they're still assigned 10 damage
they just immune it
strange python
why asasin is so weak on pvp /
?
from where i can to get good guide on a clips for pvp
everywhere there is for sub and for assassin there is nowhere
please healp me
i need video guide for asaisn rogue for pvp
I will give up this game, nowhere can I find anything about an assassin that will be useful to me as a rotation or as a style of play
plain thistle
wowhead, icyveins, pins
you can check those guides
and yes, assa and outlaw are both worst for pvp, you can probably get to 2100 with both, but it will be much harder
sub is preferred because it has a lot more tools to control and cc the enemy team, and a much better burst damage
spice spire
how is sin compared with the other 2 specs for m+ and raid?
Weakest of the three, still completely viable
rocky ruin
i think sin need a full rework like arms in legion for patch 9.2 or full reworked like Spriest. The aura buffs are cool and so, but they didnt the change the fact that sin got some issue. Thats what i feel and think
rich yew
I wouldnt mind them copying aff lock gameplay into sin. Spreading bleeds and detonating them with an finisher on all targets. Gameplay can be slower than other specs. But most likely they would buff our energy regen, instead of a rework :p
rocky ruin
Nah look at our talents some of them are crap some still exist in bfa and werent use at all. Then SL Alpha and Beta started nothing change so far for us in some manner. Now we got some aura buffs as band aid what helped us and still doesnt change spec
rocky ruin
Idk what 9.1 hold for us, but set piece or wearing 2 legendary wouldn't change the spec at all. Only rework in some areas
rich yew
What 2 legendaries would be best in theory, I guess some ppl have already thought about it?
plain thistle
dont think we need a super rework, being not so good in m+ is fine if we are good for raids, not every spec needs to be good for everything, assa is almost the same as it was during BfA
vestal wren
zoldyaks is best
plain thistle
we just dont have the numbers
but yeah, changes sometimes are good, playing the same spec for 5-6 years can be boring
vestal wren
assassination need probably another slight buff to become compatitive or the prefered pick
keep in mind that subtlety would get back to a very low play rate if assassination gets to close in damage
rocky ruin
But i mean a aura buff again in % how much would that be?
vestal wren
idk sim it
you can just add a overwrite to the sim and see how much you need to get closer to outlaw/sub on st
if you want to try, just change the 44 to your prefered value
override.spell_data=effect.191052.base_value=44```e.g. ~52 would be a 5% aura buff
5% buff would be:
~6.3k -> ~6.6k so a roughly 4% dps gain
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
vestal wren
6.6k would be enough to get close to outlaw/sub
(outlaw/sub are atm at ~6.7k)
so you would probably need another 8% buff to break even to sub/outlaw on pure st
rocky ruin
so a 26% aura buff
rocky ruin
@vestal wren i mean all aura buff together
but we 13% so another 8% like you said
but still blizz wont give us an additional buff
spice spire
That’s 21% right? “Total”
vestal wren
i don't think its that relevant to talk about "overall" numbers there because it does not mean a lot
stoic needle
I'd rather have a talent rework then more aura buffs
vestal wren
so its basically another 8% aura buff if so
stoic needle
Especially since it's not good for rogue spec balance if sin sims the same as sub
vestal wren
I'd rather have a talent rework then more aura buffs
reworking a talent does not mean it will make the spec stronger, if you attempt a talent rework to make the spec significantly stronger you already failed in design
stoic needle
I don't really want it to be significantly stronger
I'd just like for us to have less dead talents and more viable options
Like I said, it wouldn't be a good thing if sin simmed the same as sub
rigid wyvern
I dont know what you mean, alacrity is a great talent tier
vestal wren
making some talents more attractive is actually fairly simple
the NS/MA row can be fixed by nerfing subterfuge
rigid wyvern
I mean MA/Subterfuge are already fairly close
stoic needle
rigid wyvern
and subterfuge nerf would kill our cleave lol
rocky ruin
but isnt subterfuge in its self bad cause garrote still does 1 CP?
vestal wren
Subterfuge scales to well with more targets, so it should be the weaker choice on st else you don't have a lot of interest to ever pick MA or NS
stoic needle
Yeah I'd rather see NS get buffed since MA and subterfuge are close and nice alternatives
vestal wren
subterfuge is atm just "to powerfull" if we want diversity in the row
rigid wyvern
Fair
rocky ruin
Then which row could be altered do make them more attractive?
stoic needle
MA sims better for single target than subterfuge for me, there just aren't a ton of pure single target fights to take advantage of it currently
rigid wyvern
I think my biggest complaints would be the 45/50 rows imo
vast forum
MA has no place in the talent tree with the legendary being in the game imo
rocky ruin
Last Row is crap
rigid wyvern
but what about if I dont want to use the MA leggo lol
rocky ruin
or CT is quite good for cleave or aoe
stoic needle
Hidden blades should just become eb
vast forum
well, you don't have to use it, but no other class has a leggo + talent that do the EXACT same thing but one is slightly better
stoic needle
Yeah but with MA talent we get to have 1.5 legendaries
rocky ruin
You mean the vigor row?
vestal wren
yes
stoic needle
Nobody else gets that benefit
vestal wren
vigor, ds and mfd all can be played
stoic needle
And if we get to wear 2 legendaries eventually, then we have 2.5 legendaries
MA is fine
spice spire
T50 row seems extremely underwhelming IMO.
rigid wyvern
Part of me just wants CT to be baseline lol
rocky ruin
What about Venon Rush?^^
rigid wyvern
and scrap the rest of the row
vestal wren
t15 might need a slight nerf to EP and a slight buff to MP
stoic needle
Make exsang great again
spice spire
That’s probably the biggest one that I feel could be reworked. EP is not even used currently because blindside is like a 150-200 dps gain
MP could use some love though
vestal wren
the t50 row is not terrible, you have a "st pick" a "aoe pick" and hidden blades that gives you burst aoe?
stoic needle
PB is just under tuned. If it did more damage people wouldn't mind it
rigid wyvern
I mean the design isnt bad for the t50 row its more the damage tuning
rocky ruin
but isnt EP better for Multitarget
vestal wren
i think EP scales better, it possibly becomes the "best always" talent again
spice spire
I don’t mind ST/AoE. But hidden blades seems like a never get.
vestal wren
yes EP is straight up better on more targets^^
vast forum
MP is a pvp talent anyway
stoic needle
EP is already bis for m+
spice spire
That’s fair on both arguments
rigid wyvern
like ct is a fine aoe finishiner and poison bomb doesnt do alot of damage, its just you take poison bomb over CT cause you dont have to spend cp on it
vestal wren
the problematic row is rly the alacrity one
stoic needle
Yeah if PB was tuned better it would actually be a decent choice to be made especially since PB is uncapped
vestal wren
because exsang is not good in the current form
rigid wyvern
I wouldnt mind a MP buff for pvp, make our wound poison better if we are gonna talent into it
vestal wren
and VR was not even buffed to the level that makes it considerable
vestal wren
VR on 10 would maybe make it good on pure st
vestal wren
but VR is not good if you don't use mut
stoic needle
Not that we need it, just that exsang and vr are just so bad
vestal wren
iirc vr on 10 instead of 8 would make alacrity/vr close
rigid wyvern
alacrity also scales well cause I assume theres no diminishing returns on flat added haste?
vestal wren
the problem is
just like with subterfuge or EP, if you want choice you probably need to make options that are always good not perform similar on pure st
stoic needle
I think one of er/alac going baseline and getting replaced with SS or some other new talent would be good
vast forum
buff exang to 300%
stoic needle
If they want to change exsang it should just become single target vein rippers
vestal wren
i think exang even on 400% is not competitive
rigid wyvern
I wouldnt mind exsang being a niche burst talent for stuff like sludgefist where you need high damage in a small interval
vestal wren
i mean
rigid wyvern
at enough %speed exsang just becomes vein rippers lol
vestal wren
seliathan did say quite frequently on stream that he wants the torghast vanish power to replace exsang
stoic needle
Lol truea
spice spire
Vein ripper would be hella OP
rigid wyvern
Ya i dont think you can do a 1:1 transiton
spice spire
Maybe to a lesser degree?
stoic needle
Let us be OP for once(again)
I like the single target limitation
Make it aoe only with another condition
rigid wyvern
detonate 25%-50% of total duration on a single target maybe?
stoic needle
Not linking it to vanish
vestal wren
like, don't get me wrong oneshotting even the highest hp tank even during defensives in pvp sounds fun
but i don't think this would be allowed to exist
stoic needle
Why not just nerf the effect in pvp
I don't think pvp balance should be a consideration
Considering they already have rebalanced nightstalker for pvp only
And etc
rigid wyvern
Would making it a proc that randomly does like half the duration of one your bleeds or something be interesting? would make the plate spinning more interesting
full bleeds on a target would definitely pop them in a burst rotation
stoic needle
We used to have a multi strike effect
vast forum
tbh, something like what sub had in wod would be good
it was tied to multistrike back then
stoic needle
That would immediately do several ticks of the dot
vast forum
but something like "if both your mutilates crit, your bleeds tick twice instantly" or smt
but it would make crit scale insanely well
rigid wyvern
Fair, i figure just doing it with a larger amount might be more interesting from a rotation perspective
stoic needle
I like the system shock pvp talent
vast forum
ye
rigid wyvern
god fuck that talent
stoic needle
If you cast 5cp envenom on a target with garrot rup and deadly up it does a thing
vestal wren
i mean, i like the idea
rigid wyvern
The issue with system shock is the 5cp
vast forum
i think system shock would be a good pve addition
stoic needle
You could tie the multistrike to that
rigid wyvern
what happens if you dont crit in two muts
vestal wren
but it would make assassination probably one if not the highest burst damage spec in the game ^^
stoic needle
Shiv?
vast forum
poison knife
rigid wyvern
Idk i feel like i get far more 4cp evenoms than i have shivs lol
vestal wren
and i don't think that "burst damage" is the primary design direction of assassination
vast forum
i feel like more should be done with the bleeds
vestal wren
burst seems to me like the direction subtlety should take
stoic needle
Since we finish on 4 a lot, either the requirement could be lowered to 4 or the effect could be balanced around the rarity of 5cp envenom
vast forum
i think some mutilate and instant tick interaction would empower the sustain dps aspect of assa while making it more reactive
@stoic needle just run deeper strat and you wanna finish on 5 anyway 🙂
rigid wyvern
Ya I agree, thats why I kinda like it on a proc for maybe 25% duration? that way you get some nice extra damage spikes while forcing you to manage your bleeds more
vast forum
25% duration is way too much
stoic needle
Lol true I forgot about deeper strat
rigid wyvern
I'm looking at it from the perspective of making management more interesting
vestal wren
i did like kingsbane
vast forum
bleeds would need to be heavily nerfed for that to work
kingsbane was just an extra dot
i never understood why ppl liked it
vestal wren
i think bleeds could have higher dps
rocky ruin
button more to press
vestal wren
but would need to get lower duration for that
rocky ruin
and it co exist with TB
vestal wren
kinda making the maintainance effort very high so that you can justify the output
stoic needle
I get what you mean fuu about sub being the burst spec, but idk if giving us some more burst would really interfere with that especially since the cd on exsang is like 45 seconds
vestal wren
"i only apply bleeds the entire fight" kind of like design direction
rocky ruin
i mean they brought dreadblades dh artifact skill back as talent
vestal wren
assassination was iirc the highest burst spec in the game during bfa
rocky ruin
so kingsbane should be easy
vast forum
yes it was 🙂
stoic needle
Corruption... Lol
vast forum
and i have 20 sec hc logs to prove it 😄
vestal wren
that too
and thats the inherent problem, if you design a spec to have sustained strong damage how can it have insane burst too
vast forum
and sub should be burst ST/pvp
stoic needle
I like the idea of stacking damage dots quite a bit
oblique flare
When you apply a full rupture, it spreads weaker to the enemies
vestal wren
i don't think burst needs to not exist
vestal wren
but redesigns/design ideas often just give a spec everything and make it better at everything
rigid wyvern
fair
vestal wren
i assume thats how the dk designer thought too
vast forum
i feel like the leggo that spreads your bleeds when you shiv
should spread to 2 targets rather than 1
and it would be fun to play nightstalker in m+, apply full CP rup from stealth then shiv
vestal wren
"why not add the best execute in the game to the spec, what should go wrong?"
rigid wyvern
lol
stoic needle
Lol fair
stoic needle
and it would be fun to play nightstalker in m+, apply full CP rup from stealth t...
That would be sick
vast forum
but only spreading to 1 makes it completely useless
stoic needle
Maybe a controversial opinion but I like snapshotting
stoic needle
It increases the skill cap of the spec
vestal wren
most ppl atm just care about dps
stoic needle
Imagine going into a sludge window with exsang NS vendetta snapshotted rupture or smth
vast forum
the problem with snapshotting is that it limits fight design
stoic needle
the problem with snapshotting is that it limits fight design
How so?
vast forum
well, they wouldn't allow a sludgefist-eqsue fight with snapshotting in the game
stoic needle
Why not?
vestal wren
snapshotting is not a lot more complex
vast forum
imagine having a 36 second dot doing 100% more damage every minute
rigid wyvern
I mean they allow convoke /s
stoic needle
Sounds like fun to me
vast forum
fun to the classes with dots
stoic needle
I don't see why the mechanic couldn't be tuned with snapshotting in mind
vast forum
the delta between dot-based classes and non-dot classes on sludge would be HUGE
then it's tuned to be a 20% dmg buff and the fight is less fun
for every1 else
vast forum
too much effort for a little bit of enjoyment for very few people
blizzard doesn't typically do such things
stoic needle
They've taken the time to blacklist so many different mechanics for cloak
Doesn't seem too out of the question to me but maybe I'm naive
But yes blizzard is lazy lol
vestal wren
the problem is not rly cloak
the problem is that rogue was usually the class that was assigned to do stuff to allow the other classes/specs to do their damage uninterrupted like soaking with cos/feint
stoic needle
I just meant cloak as an example of blizzard taking the time to make mechanics work differently for classes
vestal wren
turtle, ice block, bubble, we have a lot of immunities that don't get restricted
and thats fine, the game design is around having some classes with immunities in your raid team
vestal wren
but rogue just has no reliable immunity anymore, cos and feint don't work on most things and if so you need to test it because there is no consistency
rogue got exploited in tomb of sageras
maybe the reason we are now in this position
keep in mind that rogue is the only pure melee dps class in the game
and is at a point that all 3 specs are nothing you rly need/want to bring to raid
rigid wyvern
Its awkward cause its kinda out of character for us to have a raid buff cause as an archetype rogues are generally selfish
tame slate
Weren't we originally going to have one of the debuffs?
rigid wyvern
Tho obviously that doesnt really solve any problems as you just force people to bring a 1 of to the raid
stoic needle
i wouldnt mind having expose armor back in some form
rigid wyvern
Its awkward cause armor pen isnt an equal buff for all the specs
like generally class buffs are generically good for all the dps specs of that class
cause armor just reduces phys correct?
fiery flower
languid imp
Ye
stoic needle
Lol yeah if expose armor was just armor it would be less impactful for sin
rigid wyvern
sub still does a fair bit of shadow damage no?
stoic needle
And a flat % all damage might be too strong
rigid wyvern
isnt outlaw like the only pure phys lol
stoic needle
Maybe crit chance?
stoic needle
Personally I wouldn't mind seeing some kind of damage output debuff for the boss
Like mind numbing working on bosses
languid imp
Could put that into tricks of trade
vestal wren
find weakness
stoic needle
Make find weakness baseline and give sub some nice big toy to compensate
That reinforces their single target burst niche
Maybe keep sub the only one with the special interactions with FW
storm onyx
Anyone remember Serrated Blades? Buffed rupture by 30% and added armor pen fir all attacks
rigid wyvern
just give us arcane agility lul
stoic needle
Drink up me hearties baseline
languid imp
"Why did you get that?" "Stole it"
stoic needle
I actually really like that idea
storm onyx
MA could be replaced by something like serrated blades
stoic needle
Why should locks be the only ones with raid consumable utility
Healthstone could heal for less but instantly, vial could be more but over time
rigid wyvern
Nah you dont want overlapping utility cause then we just still get left behind for aff locks lol
stoic needle
Or we get brought because you want both
strange python
I mean we don’t need anything fancy just more bleed dmg, we’re supposed to be like a really good consistent dmg class
stoic needle
We deserve fancy
rigid wyvern
I cant imagine they wouldnt share a cd or something
languid imp
yeah
stoic needle
Cuz we have the most boring covenant skills
Boring talents
Boring legendaries
SOMETHING about us has to be fancy
strange python
Not really
languid imp
Issue is a lot of what makes rogue interesting design wise doesnt work that well in mmorpg settings imo
strange python
Look at hunter legendaries
rigid wyvern
I feel like shroud is also less useful this expac with how tight percentages are
Honestly the hunter flare + tar trap leggo is really cool
stoic needle
Their leggos are more interesting than ours
strange python
Its 2 globals
languid imp
Bring back smokebomb so we make ranged adds run to mele
As in bring it back to pve.
: D
rigid wyvern
as long as it does good damage why does it matter if its 2 globals?
like I dont mind having interesting active effects on your leggo you have to think about
languid imp
honestly the hunter stuff is indeed pretty cool.
Wouldn't have minded if that was route they went for most legendaries
rigid wyvern
Like i feel like all the BiS leggos for rogue atm are all fairly basic passive effects that just add the most damage to your normal rotation
which can be said about many leggos tbf
stoic needle
As much as I love zoldyck, it's boring as hell
Number go up after a certain point of the fight
Imagine if zoldyck was multistrike chance during execute
Same effect, way more interesting to play
Celerity, boring
Finality, boring
All of the actually interesting leggos are bad
languid imp
at least blunderbluss is a chance to shoot like a machinegun but yeah
stuff ends up being % this % that
stoic needle
Like blunderbuss, doomblade
languid imp
seems like a missed chance to get creative
stoic needle
They suck
languid imp
Because it's not like you needed to add the other type of buff
you had full freedom here
stoic needle
If we get to use 2 legendaries eventually it'll be nice because then we can use some of the more interesting ones
rigid wyvern
tbf doomblade is also just a flat number modifier
Unless its worth to start running ct on single target with it that im not aware of
rigid wyvern
When are you ever using envenom without your bleeds up lol
stoic needle
The problem with doomblade is that it doesn't work with sbs
stoic needle
I think that's a mistake tbh
rigid wyvern
they want cov abilities to be equal between specs
stoic needle
We could have necro and night fae for poison and bleed builds
rigid wyvern
I agree with you, but I get where the devs are coming from
stoic needle
I think sin rogue gets the short end of the stick for sure with 'interesting' legendaries
median mango
exsang still suck
Thanks for testing though. 🙂
stoic needle
Dashing, doomblade, duskwalker, and zoldyck are all kinda meh
Compared to what the other classes get
spice spire
Outlaw nor holy priests aren’t that great either
stoic needle
Guile charm is actually kinda cool if the numbers were higher
median mango
Compared to what the other classes get
While I love Zoldyck I have to agree here
Imagine a rogue version of e.g. apex predator
Rupture damage has a chance to give you a free 5cp envenom.
stoic needle
That would be fucking sick
median mango
Ikr
stoic needle
Anything that's interactive is good in my book
stoic needle
Passive damage %+ is just b o r i n g
😴
Yeah I enjoy blindside too
Just wish ambush did more damage
median mango
Yeah ..
oblique flare
imagine if PB would be just a finisher already at this point
not some low chance bs
stoic needle
Giving rogue an uncapped aoe on demand?
That's too good, you know we can't have that
stoic needle
No I'm just being facetious I think that would be great
Ct is actually p strong
Sin having a small size uncapped aoe would be awesome
stoic needle
What makes you say that?
Is it because you don't really have the resources for envenom when you're maintaining ct?
oblique flare
that, and it sounds weird when you use it as well as the animation xd
stoic needle
Personally I think that triple garotte fok into CT feels pretty good
Lol yeah, sin has pretty great sound design and ct doesn't really meet that standard
Needs more splorch or more schwing
oblique flare
anything but what we currently have x)
but i also like when instead I run PB and use an envenom that procs it, it feels huge
I feel the oomph in Sin
stoic needle
Well in aoe you multi dot with ruptures after ct and that's when you'd get pb procs
I think what we're getting at is that either ct or pb should be baseline
oblique flare
yea
stoic needle
It's a shame that you can't have both of those at once
In Torghast when you get both sin is fun as hell
rigid wyvern
The best torghast power is the empowered finisher after shadowstep change my mind
rigid wyvern
who needs vein rippers when I can just shadowstep and one shot a pack with CT
or have like a massive ticking rupture lol
stoic needle
Yeah that's the boss killer for sure
rigid wyvern
really the combination of the two is the dumbest
stoic needle
First steps + unceasing chain link + nightstalker + Vr
First steps NS rupture out of stealth, chain link garotte, vein rippers
Nothing is surviving that
I would love a torghast pvp mode tbh
stoic needle
Getting NS and subterfuge together
80%+150% 
+50% on the rupture
But imagine doing first steps CT into a warlock with like 30 imps up
Hitting cloak and praying you live long enough for ct to kill them
rigid wyvern
and getting sad about aoe cap
stoic needle
Yeah..
rigid wyvern
jokes on you evasion + cloak are like 10s long in torghast
and lock doesnt have any defensives
stoic needle
I'm just saying
median mango
Personally I think that triple garotte fok into CT feels pretty good
Imagine triple garrote into CT. Man improving sin's current state seems so easy.. 😅
stoic needle
That's a good question teeny I'm not sure
That's why it's so frustrating tbh gray
It's so obvious nobody at blizz plays sin
median mango
It's not only sin though. Lots of classes/specs have this frustration
Imagine maining surv hunter
Or mw
spice spire
We’re performing better than survival now
stoic needle
Isn't that because less people play surv than sin? I feel like surv is a sleeper
spice spire
It’s pretty comparable, both are high floor low ceiling and on mythic the floor is slightly higher but the ceiling lower
dense narwhal
How is sin feeling compared to sub? Raid and m+
Anyone dabble with both?
I went back to rogue after the sin buff, but I dabbled with Sub today in torghast 😍
stoic needle
where's whispyr
scaling scaling scaling
double garrotte opener
he should be here soon
rough scaffold
@balmy condor thanks for the info last night. I got my DPS up like 500 by swapping to blindside
tawny vigil
in what parallel universe is sin rogue or surv hunter high floor lmfao
rough scaffold
im gonna roll with it in pvp
balmy condor
That sounds very high
But I’m glad it worked out
Definitely isn’t from the ambush stuff
rough scaffold
well i made a few changes and modeld them out on ask mr robot- then ran tourghast
balmy condor
AMR no good for like 8 or 9 years yeh
rough scaffold
oh lol thanks!
spice spire
in what parallel universe is sin rogue or surv hunter high floor lmfao
When their max and average are so close together it’s considered high floor on an “easy to play” category, not necessarily damage.
rough scaffold
What do you guys use to sim dmg?
balmy condor
Raidbots
rough scaffold
Cool ty. According to AMR the changes i made got me from 2900 to 3400 DPS. (3 talent and 1 soul bind change, i think.)
(ish those numbers)
tawny vigil
high floor easy to play pick one.
spice spire
high floor easy to play pick one.
I did? It’s easy to play with a low damage ceiling? I’d label that a high floor, would you not?
balmy condor
Cool ty. According to AMR the changes i made got me from 2900 to 3400 DPS. (3 ta...
Depending on the talent you changed, that would probably make sense
rough scaffold
Depending on the talent you changed, that would probably make sense
So yeah, I moved too blindside, vigor and venom rush. I felt like the single target was more busty than it was with MFD. (Which surprised me because I really like the fast MFD-> Envenoms on trash. (That said Tourghast is so effected by what orbs i got...Ill have to try a pve today. )
spice spire
rough scaffold
u think Alactiry is the only way?
rough scaffold
hmm ok. good to know
balmy condor
It’s like not even close
Master poisoner and mfd are both closer to blindside and vigor
rough scaffold
I thought it might sync with blindisde for more ambush procs
balmy condor
Than anything in that row is to alacrity
balmy condor
I thought it might sync with blindisde for more ambush procs
Yeah but haste just does that but better
stoic needle
Venom rush just doesn't give enough energy
balmy condor
If that’s the idea
. Feels good 
balmy condor
native turtle
is it worth 25 dollars? Hell no
balmy condor
Well what do you consider worth
Is it 10 dps? 50? 100? 2?
It is an increase over some over races, yes
What do you play now
Maybe 20-25 dps gain
royal lantern
racials make 0 difference
like, you wont do more dmg by going a specific race
thats a myth people tell themself cus they cant improve in other ways 
balmy condor
^
vestal wren
i wouldn't go as far as say its irrelevant
strong dome
its not significant 🙂
wet rock
people have told me its only worth it if youre going for world first
balmy condor
Even for them, it’s not for the dps gain
There’s been a few times where you’ve seen world firsts switch to races for the ability mostly
raven egret
goblin jump is probably biggest
strong dome
KJ 
royal lantern
you are not helping u.u
balmy condor
Also I think Exorsus switched to alliance dwarf
balmy condor
Because they didn’t think that it would get nerfed
royal lantern
they made a fight, where 2 classes can only fight as goblin cus of rocketjump
balmy condor
Or some dumb shit
royal lantern
how does that go trought QA lol
main forge
12 classes which amounts to 36 specs total over 14 races. That is a lot of combos to test, and I doubt they test every combo and figure out which racials "break the fight"
spice pebble
Guys I'm sorry if this breaks the rules but... I've been slacking on my sin in favor of destro lock. pls help ._.
balmy condor
We only allow rogue mains in this discord how dare you
Ban this man
Permanent no appeal
main forge
But before you go.... how does it feel not being on the bench?
balmy condor
(Issa joke btw, half of the blades don’t even play rogue, koffing is a shaman main atm)
spice pebble
I think it's just tough getting groups as a solo pure dps class
main forge
solo melee pure dps is always rough
spice pebble
so eventually I hit a wall and the luster fades
so i start up a new class or something
devout temple
i like to play arms warr and assassin rogue, which is better for m+ atm
spice pebble
sin for sure my fav still
Arms warr prob easier I would imagine
they are friggen strong rn
royal lantern
12 classes which amounts to 36 specs total over 14 races. That is a lot of co...
tbh, there is a small difference bettwen
"maybe this racial interaction is too strong" and "this fight is unplayable for priest/warlocks cus they dont have any form of blink/jump/dash"
spice pebble
I would think racial matters more in PvP than in PvE
balmy condor
I think it's just tough getting groups as a solo pure dps class
It’s funny cause the argument in bfa/legion from everyone was “wow rogue so easy to get into groups, you don’t even need outlaw, cause just rogue is too good”
spice pebble
hah yea, that was the last time I played WoW, sin in Legion was amazing and super fun
royal lantern
I would think racial matters more in PvP than in PvE
even there is weird
cus its not " racial matters"
and more" orc/human/nelf are broken"
devout temple
i guess assasin ganked one of blizzards girlfriends during SL beta
royal lantern
cus LETS MAKE CC BASED PVP
main forge
agreed, I don't know that fight specifically but it sounds like the fight was the issue and not the goblin racial.
royal lantern
agreed, I don't know that fight specifically but it sounds like the fight was th...
the problem was, in the intermission there where 3(?) knockbacks and you had too use stuff against it
first was walking, 2nd was warlock gate, 3rd was using mobility
spice pebble
PvP has always been a joke to me. which makes people who take PvP seriously very, very amusing to me as well
royal lantern
priest/warlocks didnt have the needed mobility lel
imagine beeing a triple A studio
making, testing and releasing a raidfight
where 50%of the playerbase cant use 2 crucial classes
and the other 50%have too do a raceswap
strange python
has wow ever been balanced tho? :>
fleet whale
warlocks had the mobility, with the use of warlock gates and their teleports
in fact warlocks were great on KJ because of their gate
spice pebble
I wish more people used my gate
I always cast it thinking "Oh man what a clutch gate" then myself being the only one to use it
balmy condor
Maybe your gate isn’t that clutch then
spice pebble
Nah, ppl are dumb. confirmed.
haha ~kidding
spice pebble
But imagine walking past a gate that literally makes your walk shorter
fleet whale
gates are also nice in M+
spice pebble
and TORGHAST it's so nice
fleet whale
isnt' there gate powers
spice pebble
I've seen people straight up lose torghast to the trap hallways