Doesn't it? With the CDR?
#assassination
stoic needle
balmy condor
Doesn't it? With the CDR?
I'm not sure what that means, but shiv is 25 sec, sepsis is either 1:30, or 1 min, you're going to desync
loud niche
so how much dps do you think just shiving on cd would net?
stoic needle
Nevermind I'm an idiot and thought shiv cd was 20s
balmy condor
maybe 20
at the end of the day river, you can't really do much, you're at the mercy of parses
top logs got more ambushes, slightly higher uptime, etc
there's nothing wrong here
like maybe you're wasting 3-4 seal fate cp, maybe you're missing shivs (you are), maybe you're missing X or Y super specific thing
but there's nothing that I can say to you or do to remedy that
it's clear you know how to play the spec and know what you need to do
so the advice is "just do what you know, but better"
loud niche
T_T but i need to do better than purples on mythic this week or i get the bench
gleaming eagle
balmy condor
T_T but i need to do better than purples on mythic this week or i get the bench
but..... you did
loud niche
this was in heroic, and it wasnt with my guild
im just parsing to try and get better at sin so i can keep my seat and not give it up to a filthy unh dk
rigid wyvern
I mean mythic parses are probably a crap shoot just cause of how low the sample size is
loud niche
yeah, still my RL is being anal cuz we had a bunch of green parsing bal droods just get benched and theyre crying about me
stoic needle
loud niche
anal rupture?
stoic needle
rigid wyvern
Dont worry your guranteed to be in the top 10 assa parses
loud niche
if i can pull 4k+ in mythic for lootwing, huntsman, and at least purp parse for hungering, ill be fine
*5.8k on huntsman
rigid wyvern
The problem is the sample sizes are so low your parses will be literally useless
like rank 10 sin on destroyer is parsing a 74
fleet whale
amazing dps
loud niche
fair
loud niche
how long does it usually take to get your ranking on wcl? just got the #2 parse for H sunking
plain thistle
how long does it usually take to get your ranking on wcl? just got the #2 parse ...
legion and bfa it was 4-5am EST if I remember correctly
loud niche
tyty
cedar pilot
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
vital tapir
how viable is assa currently in pvp?
loud niche
i've used it, it's comparable to sin imo, but im only 1800 rated
upper sierra
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
wind nymph
about stones or oil on weapon, which one perform better? is the difference between the two huge?
loud niche
oils if youre using phantom fire pots, and no
i think i gained like 50dps max from switching from agi pots with stones
stones with agi pots are better for sub tho, so
stoic needle
1 stone 1 oil sims better for me regardless of pot used
balmy condor
double stone gang
balmy condor
about stones or oil on weapon, which one perform better? is the difference betwe...
Run this under your import in an advanced sim https://pastebin.com/0CnXcRR1
wind nymph
thanks @balmy condor
stoic needle
Hmm I haven't redone that since I switched covenants and gotten a new weapon I should resim it
misty holly
Oh my lord that log where the outlaw rogue with a 16 parse beats the dps of your 97 parse by 25%.
hilarious
stoic needle
yeah i still get phantom fire 1 oil 1 stone as bis by 3 dps for st, and double stone with phantom fire is bis by 1 dps in dslice
but that's within the sims margin of error so.... 
balmy condor
and don't require potions
stoic needle
Yeah
Phantom fire pots are weird, sometimes they do like 10k damage sometimes they do 1000
Plus, attack power = more dot damage
Me gusta
I guess technically agi and stones work with zoldyck whereas phantom and oils don't
knotty heron
so stones are the way?
elfin perch
Do you use sepsis on cd or wait for vendeta?
toxic ravine
!guides
prisma monolithBOT
balmy condor
Do you use sepsis on cd or wait for vendeta?
cd, or line up if you're not getting another cast
wind nymph
after sim stone/stone vs oil/oil is 5dps difference lol
think i can stay put with oils
halcyon grail
pine grove
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
plush flint
how's ass running now with the buff? currently play outlaw, is it competitive?
can craft r3 zoldyck's this week
stoic needle
'competitive' with outlaw I would say no
Outlaw is pretty much better
But it's good enough that you aren't inting your raid by playing it
plush flint
sounds good, i'll probably craft it just to mix things up
bleak sedge
If i look at assa logs i dont see people using shiv. Do we not use shiv anymore?
balmy condor
shiv isn't tracked by casts
bleak sedge
well that explains 😄
bleak sedge
thats unlucky indeed. Should i use enevnom or ambush after vanish? I use master assasin and ive seen both now
balmy condor
never ambush without blindside proc
bleak sedge
okay 😄 thank you
novel cargo
3 guides and none say where to get the conduits -.
shy dust
Dungeon journal shows
fleet whale
you can get 200 LP
from the conquest vendor for like 200 conquest
Rest come from dungeons/WQ emissaries
or Ven'ari's conduit lottery
wet heron
I've raided sub since launch (casual player, itm lvl 210 now) tried outlaw but dps went down (terrible weapon) so I stayed sub. Tried Assassin yesterday, last 3 on normal, first 3 on heroic. and my dps went up slightly... while using master assassin when i assumed was significantly better for sub. Does this just mean I'm bad at sub, or at the numbers really that close for the two specs
balmy condor
the numbers are close-ish
but usually that means you're better and more comfortable at sin than sub
loud niche
whispyr, hes too good man
peen.... he's beaten me down man
i took the #2 spot for H sunking,
hes still .2k ahead tho
i took the #2 spot for H xymox, hes still 250 dps ahead.... it hurts.
spice spire
i took the #2 spot for H xymox, hes still 250 dps ahead.... it hurts.
He gets a lot of raid buffs. Like it’s hard when he’s that geared (even ahead of you) and getting power infusion
stoic needle
It's my mission to git gud and get geared and get fed PI and take the spot
I already have the pi feeding down my priests love me
Just gotta git gud
stoic needle
"giving me PI is the best thing for raid dps, as the damage boost will have the most likelihood of being utilized during progression due to the survivability of rogue and sin's natural higher damage during downtime." 
stoic needle
Tbh I didn't say that I just asked nicely and they gave it to me
Helps when your raid group has 0 boomkin 
They rotate it between me and the arms war
loud niche
so, do we save shiv and vend for pillars on sludge?
spice spire
I don't save shiv, but I save vend for pillars.
loud niche
wait, shouldnt vend be on pull, cuz 2min uses on pull, pillar 2 and pillar 4?
or am i dumb?
spice spire
We (slow prog group) down on pillar 3 - N , so it makes sense to hold in that context. If you're going to four, you'd pull, I'd assume.
mighty zenith
I’m using hero rotation addon to help@me@learn the spec buts it’s telling me to cast crimson tempest in single target. Is that right?
balmy condor
I’m using hero rotation addon to help@me@learn the spec buts it’s telling me to ...
No
mighty zenith
Ok thanks
deep wharf
oh hey, PI bot here hows it going @balmy condor
rapid lance
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
toxic ravine
What kind of percentages should we be aiming for
toxic ravine
Ay im lucky to get 30 percent on one stat lol
balmy condor
I don't make the rules man
toxic ravine
Poor man stat life
rapid lance
any tricks to solo'ing content as a low geared rogue? lol
wish I could find that recuperator conduit..
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
stoic needle
a low rank MA will make a pretty nice difference for soloing stuff if you can afford it
rapid lance
I'm dumb, what's MA again? lol
rapid lance
o ye, using that lol
you sure he's talking about that MA cuz he said if you can afford it lol
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
rapid lance
oh, he meant the legendary lol
rapid lance
haven't made a legendary yet and got zoldyck, should I make MA still or just go straight to zoldyck?
balmy condor
should probably go zold
rapid lance
ye
if you have existing DoTs on the target and shiv, do those existing DoTs get buffed too?
balmy condor
shiv increases nature damage taken by the target for that duration
so that's mostly poison ticks and reapplications, and sepsis if you're night fae
rapid lance
gotcha
balmy condor
oh and envenoms obviously
cedar pilot
Got my r4 zold today, I'm so hyped for raid...
So glad the specc is kinda back
mighty zenith
You guys running zold in mythic plus also?
balmy condor
definitely
mighty zenith
How is it on trash compared to master assassin ?
stoic needle
Idk what to do with my soul ash now after getting r4 zoldyck
balmy condor
better
mighty zenith
Getting ready to buy 1
stoic needle
Doomblade for pvp? Dashing? 
mighty zenith
Ty whispyr
strange python
Hello all, why do we use mutilate over ambush in subterfuge in the opener? I cannot figure out why
viral meadow
@balmy condor can give a more detailed answer but its basically Mut can achieve 4 CP where ambush can only achieve 3.
strange python
Is there like a crit % that you wanna do that before you go for multi or just on regular basis it turns out better?
balmy condor
its regular
strange python
Thank you both !
balmy condor
the reasoning on the crit btw
is that regardless of your crit rate
mutilate will always have twice the crit
like if you're 10% crit, ambush crits 10% of the time, and each hand of mutilate is 10% as well
viral meadow
Does anyone know off the top of their head what the out-of-combat timer for CP decay is?
balmy condor
and if you're 60% crit, ambush has 60% crit, and each hand of mutilate as well
so the ratio between the two is always 2:1
glad sun
I have a quick question as well, does that include when using Sepsis (Night Fae) as well to use Mutilate over Ambush?
strange python
yeah, that makes a lot of sense
balmy condor
I have a quick question as well, does that include when using Sepsis (Night Fae)...
yes
glad sun
Thank you for the assistance =]
balmy condor
Does anyone know off the top of their head what the out-of-combat timer for CP d...
I used to remember that number from like 5 months ago
viral meadow
Im running the MA Leggo + EP+NS+MFD build and want to pre MfD on the boss. Just trying to figure out the 'pull timer' i need
balmy condor
you take a 10 second pull timer and mfd at like 5
sims pre-pull use MFD 1 second before pull
viral meadow
Nah im trying to big brain and MFD at like 20-25 sec so MfD comes off cooldown for the vanish on the opener
balmy condor
why would you want that
viral meadow
for the 0.0001% dps increase
so mfd a NS rupture and then vend+vanish a 5cp envenom > mfd > envenom
on the open
balmy condor
so we can agree that NS rupture is the way to go?
viral meadow
I dunno I saw some guys doing it.
viral meadow
yeah
balmy condor
why we trying to game MFD for double envenom
balmy condor
hm
viral meadow
Im at a target dummy now. gonna see if its possible to pre mfd and have the CD come off and still have 5 CP on the rupture
balmy condor
can you link a sim
balmy condor
well that's what I would be doing
viral meadow
Are there any good resources for what I should try with the sims?
viral meadow
OH lol
this is a quick sim. I'm not sure how to make a 'custom opener' to describe what I'm trying to do
also for this build should I be trying to NS the rupture every vanish during the fight? or envenom?
balmy condor
you should NS every rupture yeh
viral meadow
I was trying it out on sludgefist in particular. You still reckon rupture on the 2nd pillar? or envenom. It's probably a negligible difference aye.
balmy condor
oh you should probably NS an envenom in that case
cause you're getting double value
NS in general is like
really jank as a talent choice
viral meadow
yeah.
balmy condor
but
viral meadow
I built a zoldycks yesterday but prior to that I was trying different stuff. having a look at logs and seeing what people are being successful with
balmy condor
I also don't think NS is optimized
well
it might be
the current usage is sepsis from stealth, get a rupture up at like 2 cp, and then vanish to a full pandemic rupture
viral meadow
ooh. so sepsis can take NS too?
balmy condor
but I'll try to see if an MFD -> rupture thing would be better
balmy condor
ooh. so sepsis can take NS too?
honestly not sure, if you want to, you can test that for me by just going up to a dummy with NS, using sepsis, repeating 1-2 times, and then repeating that, with subterfuge
I would assume it does
balmy condor
unlucky
so yeh, should probably add a condition for that to open with something that's actually affected by NS
viral meadow
can i do that in raidbots?
balmy condor
you'd have to custom code it
I'm gonna need some time to check all the stuff we talked about
viral meadow
yeah thats okay. Ill have to research how to do that another time
balmy condor
I'll come back in a little
viral meadow
easy. just FYI, 20 seconds is the out-of-combat decay time for CP
balmy condor
to start? or for each CP
viral meadow
if I mfd. it takes 20 seconds for the first CP to fall off
balmy condor
aha
viral meadow
so I managed to get a 4CP opener and have mfd BARELY up in time to get 3x 5CP envenoms off in the MA leggo window
sorry 2x 5CP and 1x 4CP
it is a bit janky. anyway I'll let you do your thang. thanks for your help
balmy condor
@viral meadow had to change the logic quite a bit actually, but it seems like doing some crazy MFD -> rupture thing is MAYBE like -0.2%
balmy condor
the actual intricacies are pretty complicated
viral meadow
the timings are very skinny
balmy condor
tugging on a lot more of the spider web than I first realized
tbh
changing the MFD timing was one thing
(that didn't provide any gain btw)
but making it rupture with that MFD instead of slice
is uh
an interesting problem
kinda went down a rabbit hole of "well if we rupture, then the vanish condition later on will overwrite it again, so we have to force it to not use the vanish for a rupture, but wait, we want it to vanish rupture if it's a not empowered rupture"
viral meadow
crikey
balmy condor
and then vanish conditionals needed tweaking on top of that just as a test because there's vendetta conditions nested in there
there's one line in particular that ended up being a little painful
viral meadow
I wish I knew how to code all this stuff so I can try out crazy stuff like this. or like trying to get an exsanguinate into the window
I wonder If you could do this, add an internal bleeding in there with exsanguinate and blow people up in pvp
balmy condor
idk, pvp theorycrafting is a whole other beast
cause you can't sim it
so its all just feelycraft and logs and stuff
viral meadow
yeah but you could sim a theoretical 'opener'
balmy condor
not really
viral meadow
why not? just curious
balmy condor
multipliers change in pvp, etc
viral meadow
oh true
viral meadow
I see. Do you have any good resources for learning how to custom sim?
viral meadow
Aight. Wish me luck lol
balmy condor
APL editing isn't actually the hard part imo
the hard part is the logic puzzle of getting it to do what you want to, and intuitively knowing what's a gain and what's a waste of time
like you could probably sim NS -> envenom instead of rupture without much of a hitch
but everyone knows that's not a gain
so you'd just waste your time testing that
viral meadow
Yeah. This is a very deep hole. Might just leave this to the pro's 
balmy condor
luckily, the rogue TC community is actually very very VERY solid
in comparison to some other classes
viral meadow
Yeah. First time I heard of theorycrafting was in WOTLK when I played rogue. I was like 'what is this shadowcraft and who made this'
I thought simming was just exclusive to rogues
balmy condor
lmao
hazy yarrow
Can anyone confirm if Lethal Poison conduit working as intended on Sin?
balmy condor
it is
hazy yarrow
Okay, thank you.
balmy condor
do you suspect that it's not?
hazy yarrow
On WoW forums, there's a fairly new thread suspecting that it's not working at all
balmy condor
yikes, that cesspool
I'll double check real quick to make sure
but I'd be surprised if someone on the forums said something of value tbh
hazy yarrow
He seems to be confident,because he says he did few test and they all confirm of the conduit not working.
balmy condor
would be the first I'm hearing of it
hazy yarrow
Yeah,same here
balmy condor
He seems to be confident,because he says he did few test and they all confirm of...
yeah not sure what this guys evidence is, works fine for me
both times going to 50k
201 average hit is 14.8% higher than the 175 without, and the hits required are also 15% higher
(it's inflated by about 1-1.5% because of the crit jank and damage variance)
hazy yarrow
Seems to be working as intended,thank you Whispyr.
balmy condor
out of curiosity, can you link me that thread
balmy condor
yeah links are fine
hazy yarrow
Maybe it's just bugged for him,I'm not sure.
celest ruin
swift pumice
yea will be using MA. scanned the top 10 ass rogues most of them seem to be vers master
granted some might be playing double deeps and some with healer
but i didnt think that far ahead
cedar pilot
so if im at 5cps and have all maintenance up, do i use shiv and overcap CP or envenom and use shiv on next env?
balmy condor
you shiv
cedar pilot
alright thnx, how likely is it to get 3 envenoms in one shiv window? should i always be able to do it?
balmy condor
depends on your crit and haste/energy levels at the time (vendetta energy gain/bloodlust/etc)
with higher gear levels, should be possible most of the time
but if you can't get 3 in, I wouldn't worry about it
there's no way to force it, nor is it a gain to actually try and force an unnatural envenom into the rotation
cedar pilot
alright..ilvl is at about 215, haste only about 18%, was outlaw so i have a lot of verse...
guess the rest will come naturally when im getting more used to assa again
actually having to think about my next finisher/how i use my energy or even pool it is quite the difference compared to outlaw
balmy condor
pooling isn't really a thing
it's really not that bad, just maintenance stuff and hit shiv on cd
cedar pilot
aight thanks alot
potent raft
the pooling is definitely there on a micro scale, for me at least.
As outlaw you just spam away
For Sin i need to actively think about NOT using a finisher immediately on 4/5 cp if I am at low energy, Envenom buff is still up and/or shiv is coming up in like 1 sec.
i feel the difference in playstyle from builder,builder, finisher, <wait>
to finisher,builder, builder,<wait>
viral meadow
I think they talk about pooling in one of the guides to 80energy before envenom. I think it’s only if you’re running EP.
potent raft
even if you dont run EP, envenom buff is still there
i am wondering do I craft rank3 zoldyck today or rank4 next week
rugged dragon
I mean, if you have the gold upgrade, if not dont
If you upgrade to rank3 now, you can upgrade it to 4 next week still
balmy condor
the problem is
yes there is technically pooling
but its just really not that big
I think the difference between obeying the "don't envenom unless you're going to overcap" rule that the sims use vs just slamming envenom at 4+ cp like a mongoloid is 0.3%?
like its something I guess
potent raft
so, cos i'm bad pooling this way nets me 0.3% (apparently) and reduces my badness a bit automatically
hollow escarp
do you guys know if raidbots is counting full party of Stone Legion Heraldry trinket when it sims for Top Gear trinkets?
balmy condor
baseline 0 allies, only yourself
rugged dragon
It doesnt, need to apply your own script to it
hollow escarp
so it really is that good 
rugged dragon
shadowlands.stone_legionnaires_in_partyX
hollow escarp
got it on my first Stone Legion kill 
rugged dragon
The x, is the ammount
balmy condor
forgot an equals
hollow escarp
good to know
balmy condor
but yeh
rugged dragon
My bad
hollow escarp
don't plan to sim it, I just didn't wanted to think it's better than others just because it thinks I'm in a party
balmy condor
yep
hollow escarp
also been checking top logs, not so many assa rogues use it
hollow escarp
but that's probably due to the small pool of logs
balmy condor
there's also plenty of trinkets that are more accessible at higher ilvl
which then would win
hollow escarp
yeah, I only have Stone 220, Inerva trinket 213 and some 200 trinkets
balmy condor
like heroic dreadfire + heroic skulk is better than heroic stone legion I think
rugged dragon
I use those exact 2, too
balmy condor
phial would be better too
rugged dragon
stone 220 and memory of past sins 213
balmy condor
so you'll probably see a lot of skulker/dreadfire/iqd/phial/etc
before you'd see a herald
hollow escarp
makes sense
Shriekwing 
wish more people had Memory of Past Sins, it looks like a fun trinket to press in a raid that stacks it
hollow escarp
I used chain 200 before Stone legion trinket for a while
hollow escarp
Vault gave me a 220 dagger this week 
I should get 1800 in pvp to upgrade my offhand or get lucky next week
now I do m+ as outlaw with 203 mace and 220 offhand
rugged dragon
I use 220 and 197 dagger right now
but my main spec is outlaw so yeh
I use double 220 for that
fallen bay
Which is the best assa pvp soulbind from NF ?
balmy condor
I think most people play Dreamweaver for the egg or niya otherwise
bright pewter
how do stats play a roll now in assasination rogue
do i go for ilevel over stats or stats over ilevel
raven egret
balmy condor
And don’t post your question in multiple places instantly :)
storm onyx
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
loud niche
anyone know how to make an unlisted log turn into a public log?
strange python
hello i need rotation for arenas for asasin rogue with who skills need to start my rotaion in battle
fossil slate
now I do m+ as outlaw with 203 mace and 220 offhand <:PepeLaugh:6141281602206433...
I've got a 197 MH sword and a 226 offhand dagger 🤯😂
celest marlin
wonder if assa is viable for pvp
hollow escarp
it's better than outlaw
and right now rogues don't one shot as much so the role is control and pressure
dotting your target and with the utility of wound poison, you get a lot of advantage over the other specs
especially in 3s and RBGs
potent raft
about the opener, we start with mutilate cos we need CP
but after vanish we go for ambush bcos of more damage? (in vendetta?)
hollow escarp
I wouldn't vanish for damage 
mostly to reset combat because we are squishy in pvp
but I think the opener should be Mark for Death and Kidney Shot
you should also try to ask in #pvp maybe there are more pvp-oriented people that lurk in that channel
ornate gazelle
Sin is very good in pvp in some comps
potent raft
sorry this was not related to the pvp stuff
#pvp is better for that 🙂 my opener question was pve
gusty hollow
Hey guys! New here, im just wondering what legendary i should craft
coral imp
pins
gusty hollow
Thanks!
fallen bay
Best warmode Talents for Rated Bgs ?
west ice
Hi all - wondering if i should hold off on using pot until 30% exec phase? or best to use hith hero when ever that is?
toxic tusk
Depends on how long the fight is!
If it’s more than 5 minutes you can do both I figure.
..and if they hero at the start.
west ice
Mythic Shiekwing - last kill took 7 mins but half of us were dead
fading wigeon
Use it with hero
west ice
kk thanks
tawdry pulsar
Hey, when it comes to the legendary pieces I understand the Zoldyck is BiS atm. My question is which armour slot should I put my legendary effect on?
strange python
Usually legs
toxic tusk
Solely for the higher stats right?
rigid oriole
is zoldyck BiS even on fortified? 🙂
toxic tusk
We should have a rogue night where we all pair up and either have a massive horde vs alliance rogue fight or just take over something.
I’d love to see someone running around and like 20 rogues unstealth in front of them.
stoic needle
20 rogues camping the maw
winged moss
zoldyck is the best all around for assa?
stoic needle
Yes
royal lantern
I’d love to see someone running around and like 20 rogues unstealth in front of ...
you think too small
not killing people with 20 rogues
just cc lock 1 player for 2hours by spamm blind/sap/kidney
toxic tusk
I remember a long while back when mobs weren’t all leashed, someone stole Org’s flight master and hid it in a cave.
Rogue stuff like that would be awesome.
They put a mining pick in the neutral AH for like 10k gold as payment to get him back.
tawdry pulsar
Do you know if I can make my first legendary a 235 from the get go? or do I have to buy the 190 piece off the AH
winged moss
why is that 20% haste that important for assa?
toxic tusk
I miss faction fuckery like that.
winged moss
sry if its dumb question
tawdry pulsar
Which is how much
toxic tusk
Going from 210 to 235 costs me 3150 soul ash ish
stoic needle
why is that 20% haste that important for assa?
There is no haste breakpoint
tawdry pulsar
Ouch
stoic needle
But big haste = big dam
winged moss
dots ticks faster or more?
toxic tusk
Depends. What are you wanting to do? If you don’t mind waiting a few weeks you can buy it once and be done.
torn token
dots ticks faster or more?
Faster ticks
tawdry pulsar
@winged moss higher haste = more energy regen and dots tick faster
winged moss
ty
upper sierra
does the patchwerk sim have an execute phase?
stoic needle
So I should realistically buy the 190 piece?
If you can afford it you should craft the the highest level possible first otherwise you're just spending more gold
Alternatively, spend 2 hours skinning and get all the mats yourself and pay almost nothing to get someone to craft it for you
tawdry pulsar
Do I need the next rank base item to upgrade it from 190 to 210?
stoic needle
Or just sell the skins and buy the base item if you're turbo lazy
tawdry pulsar
or is it just simply soul ash
stoic needle
Yes you need the base item for whatever rank you are upgrading to
tawdry pulsar
Oh jeez I see
stoic needle
So if you go 190 to 210 you need a 190 and a 210
Go straight for the 235 if you can
tawdry pulsar
I mean I want the legendary asap if I buy the 235 it'll take me close to a month or longer just to get access to that item
stoic needle
Wait sorry I missed that you aren't 60 yet
Pick up skinning while you level, and spend the last few levels just grinding skins
You should have enough to buy or craft the 190 and the 235 that way
tawdry pulsar
Yeah I'm just buying all my stuff pre-emptively before I journey to 60
If I skin everything I see I should have enough more or less to upgrade that way?
stoic needle
dots ticks faster or more?
Dots ticking faster also gives you more energy regen because if venomous wounds
stoic needle
If I skin everything I see I should have enough more or less to upgrade that way...
You can skin the mats for a lvl 4 legendary in like 3 hours if you're at max skinning skill
tawdry pulsar
Any specific zone I should spend my time skinning?
stoic needle
If there are any world quests with skinnable mobs as the objective, like drought conditions in bastion, you can skin other people's kills
There's good spots in every zone but I'd say maldraxxus and ardenweald are the best
Just youtube search shadowlands skinning route there are dozens of spots lol
Also as you level, just pay attention to where there are lots of skinnable beasts
tawdry pulsar
Any add-ons that are useful for skinners?
stoic needle
Maybe like an auto loot addon but not really
tawdry pulsar
Fair enough cheers for the help and info
stoic needle
np
I know they look expensive but there's plenty of ways to afford them if you play smart
tawdry pulsar
I think my route will be, buy the 190 piece, spam torghast until 1,250 soulash. and hopefully by then I'll also have the recipe from layer 3 corridor
stoic needle
Twisting corridors might be a bit hard as a fresh 60 with no gear
Try to do your covenant campaign and upgrade that armor as a starter set
tawdry pulsar
I have a friend that could help me, he's like 198 ilvl bdk I think
stoic needle
Oh yeah it's ezmode with a tank or healer
tawdry pulsar
But honestly the whole torghast system itself just confuses me
I was given a tip about finding the layer I need for the recipe, get to layer 3 of twisted corridors and leave and enter until I get the specific layer which is coldheart interstatia
Since re-entering re-rolls the layer
stoic needle
the problems with torghast imo is that 1. Our class powers suck and 2. A lot of it is tuned around the % stat boosts you get from the souls and the powers, so if you're low geared, +50% of nothing is still kinda nothing. And there's no indication of the 'recommended ilvl' for each layer
That's a cool tip, I didn't know about that
tawdry pulsar
Yeah because coldheart isn't active this week, and twisted has every layer, just keep leaving and re-entering layer 3 and it re-rolls the debuffs
vestal wren
if there is a problem its probably survivability of the class
there is a reason blizz did buff rogues defensive anima powers partly up to iirc 300% in the beginning
stoic needle
Overall, I enjoy torghast, but I can't help but feel like kid picked last for dodgeball when I hear my guildies of other classes talk about their ridiculously OP builds
vestal wren
blizz did partly fail to capture the essence of roguelikes
you in essence always go with similar powers and have no big variation on rogue
stoic needle
Yeah
tawdry pulsar
yeah I remember watching beta of shadowlands and watching the shamans builds having fun it's like the spongebob meme where squidward is looking out the window
stoic needle
My demo lock guildie gets literally 30 imps that solo the whole floor for them
tawdry pulsar
Shamans look incredibly fun in torghast
stoic needle
Or a hugely buffed tyrant/doomguard
stoic needle
Yeah
tawdry pulsar
Problem is, levelling :P
stoic needle
Warriors get infinitely castable condemn that knocks things down with every hit
Stunlock and huge damage
tawdry pulsar
Even though levelling is much quicker than it was last expansion, it's still a huge drag
vestal wren
i don't see it as a big issue but i see torghast in general as fun content
tawdry pulsar
Yeah I'm excited to try it
stoic needle
I think it's something that could be remedied with time but I feel like it's lower on their priority list than balancing classes and covenants
tawdry pulsar
My friend says he hates it
stoic needle
We have at least a year and some change left of this expansion I have a good feeling torghast will get better and better
I think the people who don't like torghast just don't like roguelikes or something
toxic tusk
I do have a pretty hard time in there.
stoic needle
After playing through the earlier harder tuned versions the current version is kinda easy
I just have to take my time
But I think that's a good thing, people shouldn't have to slog through bosses one shotting them to get their soul ash. Leave that to the twisting corridors
Torghast is also kinda cool for pseudo testing what sin would be like with certain talents being made baseline or a bit more of an aura buff and stuff like that
winged moss
what if i go dashing scoundrel lego and full crit assa?
stoic needle
You can sim it but it's probably not worth it because dashing is only good on ST and there are very few pure ST fights atm
balmy condor
what if i go dashing scoundrel lego and full crit assa?
That’s just normal dashing, but worse
winged moss
you can get like 45% crit on poisons
balmy condor
you can get like 45% crit on poisons
Okay and?
winged moss
Dunno im just curious
balmy condor
It’s just a normal build but worse
pulsar sluice
feral basin
Been messing around with Sin at ilvl 202 and just cant seem to get ST dmg higher than about 3.5/3.7k and constantly feel like im out of energy - am i just pooling wrong or is it still not great?
balmy condor
Been messing around with Sin at ilvl 202 and just cant seem to get ST dmg higher...
What’s your sim put you at
toxic tusk
Ooooh gotcha.
feral basin
4..3k on sim
toxic tusk
Yeah dude, I’m also at 202 and it’s the same thing. But not very many people in my guild are pulling 3.5k the whole fight
stoic needle
One of sin's 'problems' is energy generation in ST just because of the way we're balanced around venomous wounds
Getting more haste helps
toxic tusk
With Zoldyck, openers and evening, what’s a good way to figure out a reliable dps figure on ST? Obviously it’ll fluctuate especially after the 30 percent Mark gets reached. Not simmed but like player dps.
..I’m not good at words today I’m aware.
feral basin
well i was playing outlaw at 202 and it feels hella strong, just still not a massive fan of the casino dice
but i invested 30k in the leggo at 210
balmy condor
4..3k on sim
Is that patchwerk all buffs or target dummy
feral basin
patchwerk
stoic needle
I really wish they'd make a target dummy that actually took damage
feral basin
trying to replecate it on target dummy
stoic needle
Well you can't because target dummies never get into the execute phase
So you should sim for target dummy and see if you can match that
iron orchid
I really wish they'd make a target dummy that actually took damage
At the end of last season, you could burst the dummy with your big fat dmg
balmy condor
trying to replecate it on target dummy
There’s a sim type called “target dummy” I would use that
royal lantern
isnt that just patchwork 
balmy condor
No
balmy condor
It specifically disables all consumables and the hp never goes below 99%
feral basin
It simmed my opener as this - Sepsis (from stealth), Mutilate, Slice and Dice, Garrote, Shiv, Rupture, Vendetta, Vanish, Mutilate
stoic needle
I've seen similar things before. Why does it do that
balmy condor
Because it’s not really a gain not to
stoic needle
So then why do the guides recommend different openers?
balmy condor
Because it’s not really a loss not to
stoic needle
By not really a gain you mean it's just a very small one?
balmy condor
I mean it’s all within margin
stoic needle
So it's not a huge deal if you fuck up your opener
balmy condor
Correct
feral basin
its kinda like coming from outlaw its very specific
and this just kinda feels like
press what u want, it doesnt really matter
=/
stoic needle
Lol
feral basin
TBF i use a cast sequence macro just for opener to min/max it
balmy condor
Like this idea that you have to do a scripted set of inputs at the start of the fight
Is really weird
feral basin
Yeah but it really helps imo
balmy condor
I can agree that it helps
But if there’s base knowledge of the spec
Then you can change it a little
stoic needle
Well that makes me feel better about the times where I go for 5cp SND and rupture instead of the 2-3 ones that you get when you do a 'perfect' opener
balmy condor
Without any dps loss
balmy condor
Well that makes me feel better about the times where I go for 5cp SND and ruptur...
Yeh rupture before snd is like 0.2-0.3%
stoic needle
I guess as long as you don't double garotte it's fine 
balmy condor
well the double garrote thing also affects vanish garrotes
So that actually has more instances to be wrong
But yeah, double garrote is omega wrong
That one specifically is well over 1%
feral basin
Target dummy sim came back and i wanna cry
stoic needle
Why?
stoic needle
Other classes target dummy sims aren't any better
feral basin
<
stoic needle
Compared to their fully raid buffed ones
balmy condor
What’s wrong with that
feral basin
dunno seems low?
stoic needle
You underestimate how much damage full raid buffs add
balmy condor
^
stoic needle
And zoldyck
balmy condor
^
stoic needle
We basically have no leggo until the last 30% lol
balmy condor
Zoldyck is 5%, food/pots are another 5%, bloodlust is like 10% easily, windfury is another 5%, battle shout is easily 7-8%
feral basin
ye ur right
balmy condor
Like add up the raid buffs and you can easily find 35% damage
feral basin
Im just looking at what fights i should play sin on and which ill use outlaw for
like outlaw is great for huntsman and generals
stoic needle
Unfortunately there aren't really any situations in which youd want to play sin over outlaw if you are proficient with outlaw
balmy condor
You go outlaw on every fight you would play sin on
balmy condor
Sin beats subtlety on some fights
stoic needle
Outlaw is just built different
balmy condor
It does not beat outlaw
feral basin
Think sin will get some more love? or think theyll leave it now in mid tier
feral basin
its 13% buffs all in isnt it?
stoic needle
i'm hoping for a talent rework and maybe another 2-3%
feral basin
got 5% then a 8% not long after
stoic needle
i'd be happy with just a talent rework
rotund oak
Hey ma dudes,what conduits we going for in arenas,maim,mangle or wellplaced?
feral basin
yeh poison bomb rng is kinda meh
stoic needle
@feral basin fyi your target dummy sim has outlaw conduits equipped 😄
stoic needle
i did a whole key as sin with CTO
feral basin
the conduit energy thing is a joke too
balmy condor
i did a whole key as sin with CTO <:omegalul:585734084777476096>
Ambush from stealth viable pog
stoic needle
eh if you swap specs that much you just set up one soulbind for each
toxic tusk
Be a conduit, not a cantduit.
feral basin
but Niya is good for sin cos of the mastery?
stoic needle
Ambush from stealth viable pog
god if only
feral basin
Be a conduit, not a cantduit.
LMAO
stoic needle
yeah niya is very solid
feral basin
whats BIS for us then btw
balmy condor
but Niya is good for sin cos of the mastery?
Niya is just good in general yeh
balmy condor
whats BIS for us then btw
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
feral basin
leather and well placed steel?
balmy condor
Glad you asked
stoic needle
i'm interested in korayn, i like the idea of wild hunt tactics + zoldyck
balmy condor
are you a cutie?
No cuties here
royal lantern
lies
royal lantern
good thing i didnt play sin for the entire expac
vivid hearth
whats the best conduits for m+`?
feral basin
**Whispyrs Bis list:** <http://tiny.cc/76r5tz>
very cool tbh - but doesnt list conduits?
balmy condor
Well the sims have conduits
feral basin
oh, gotta
balmy condor
You can click on one of the links
feral basin
two brain fart moments
balmy condor
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
cloud dune
is assassin still the worst spec for rogues?
balmy condor
Yes, but it has niche where it beats sub
vivid hearth
tbh its not that far behind
you get alot of uptime with bleeds and posions when there is alot of movemebt
but then i dont play perfectly on sub
toxic tusk
Welp.
toxic tusk
While killing enough enemies along the way.
balmy condor
Yes very important
toxic tusk
Also, is that an inglorious reference?
balmy condor
No
strange python
Doomblade sims the highest for me. Guess where I'm a necrolord rogue.
balmy condor
Doomblade sims the highest for me. Guess where I'm a necrolord rogue.
Sbs doesn’t increase doomblade damage I think
I don’t see enough necrolord rogues to actually remember if that interaction works
strange python
I wasn't sure if it did.
balmy condor
Zoldyck for all keys imo
strange python
I'm gonna try doomblade next week. Once I can get enough soul ash
balmy condor
Lemme know if it stacks sbs
strange python
Ok. Will do
strange python
@lament flint right. I have a wa now to remind me
Lol. I forget it on outlaw. I just started playing rogue again. I don't have the muscle memory yet.
fallen bay
When do you use SnD on opener in PVP ?
rugged dragon
PvP plays MfD, you can do it. But its not suggested since you can better MfD > Kidney
tawdry pulsar
Is it still nightfae for covenant choice?
tawdry pulsar
so all are viable?
fleet whale
yes, but venthyr in terms of feeling and practicality is the worse imo
stoic needle
Legit why cant SBS crit ???
I think that's the point of the conduit, to give it a 'crit' chance
tawdry pulsar
might go with NF then for the soulshape blink
tawdry pulsar
I remember before SL came out necro was looking very promising
fleet whale
it got nerfed
tawdry pulsar
I assume they nerfed SBS into the ground?
fleet whale
yeah, but it's still a decent covenant as a whole
balmy condor
well when the ability is doing 50% of your damage
stoic needle
Nf literally does everything venthyr does but better the teleport is better, you can get a more reliable haste buff from dreamweaver, the ability is better
tawdry pulsar
what's their cov ability
tawdry pulsar
is it the shield one?
fleet whale
yeah it's the shield
tawdry pulsar
hmmm
stoic needle
The shield is fine, bone spikes isn't bad but a bit under tuned
tawdry pulsar
so sbs is still unlimited dot?
stoic needle
Yeah but it doesn't work with any of our passives
Doesn't work with venemous wounds, doesn't work with doomblade
tawdry pulsar
I heard NF get a really good conduit but isn't unlocked for another few months
stoic needle
God, sbs proccing VW and doomblade would be so lit
fleet whale
all nf soulbinds are good
stoic needle
It's already good even without first strike
stoic needle
Korayn isn't bad even without FS
balmy condor
I heard NF get a really good conduit but isn't unlocked for another few months
3 weeks actually
tawdry pulsar
I see
tawdry pulsar
So necro is still viable in m+?
fleet whale
yes
balmy condor
they're all viable
fleet whale
they are all viable but i personally wouldn't recommend Venth for anything
unless if you really love the look
stoic needle
And it's good cp generation
native turtle
Thoughts on Blizzard removing Assassination from the game and making a ranged shuriken/poison vial rogue spec??
fleet whale
lol no
native turtle
So thats 2 in favor
stoic needle
If anything they should remove outlaw
fleet whale
i would bet 99% of rogues would not want a spec turned ranged
native turtle
But survival turned out so WELL for hunters 
tawdry pulsar
can't remember the name
fleet whale
now i wouldn't mind assassin having more of a gadget fantasy, but it would stay melee
stoic needle
Survival is actually kinda good though
fleet whale
no one plays survival
tawdry pulsar
i just want pre-outlaw combat rogue back
stoic needle
The only problem with surv is that it's overshadowed by mm and bm
It's a fine spec on its own
tawdry pulsar
cb rogue in mop was so fun
tawny iris
did sin get buff?
fleet whale
a few weeks ago
native turtle
Can we get Hunger for Blood back please
tawny iris
is sin good now?
fleet whale
it's ok
stoic needle
It's viable
It's close to sub and that makes me very happy
Sub players on suicide watch
deft vault
@stoic needle yeah i know but they could still allow it to crit and the conduit ust make it double damge . the dmg from sbs is still so bad so i dont see any reason why it cant crit
stoic needle
You're preaching to the choir my friend. I think every single rogue covenant ability could use a hefty buff
tawdry pulsar
does sbs stack? can't remember
stoic needle
No
balmy condor
reapplications do the instant damage and give cp
stoic needle
Just gives more CP with each use
balmy condor
yes
stoic needle
Yep
balmy condor
you apply to everything, or cast on cd in single target
tawdry pulsar
so how does it fit into opener
balmy condor
you just cast it
tawdry pulsar
garrote > 2x ambush > rupture then sbs?
balmy condor
we don't ambush from stealth
tawdry pulsar
what do we use
balmy condor
mutilate
tawdry pulsar
as the first ability?
balmy condor
your opener with subt should be gar mut snd
tawdry pulsar
okay so garrote 2x muti snd then 3x sbs then mut for rupture?
tawdry pulsar
for 5cp?
balmy condor
gar gives 1, mut gives a minimum of 2, up to 4 depending on crits
balmy condor
you would sbs mut rup vendetta shiv
tawdry pulsar
interesting
stoic needle
You'd only use multiple sbs if it's aoe like in m+
tawdry pulsar
i never really thought we should use less than 5 cp on rup or snd
stoic needle
Sbs isn't worth casting 3x in a row in the opener
balmy condor
the tick damage doesn't change with cp on rupture
and snd is just duration
envenom damage scaling is linear with combo points as well
tawdry pulsar
but after initial duration we keep them active with 5cp though right?
tawdry pulsar
that's crazy to me lol
stoic needle
you don't want to waste any combo points from mutilate
balmy condor
^
stoic needle
That's a bigger dps loss than finishing on 4
balmy condor
yeh sounds like it
tawdry pulsar
will take a while getting used to the 4cp change
balmy condor
you do the same on sub btw
tawdry pulsar
do we still snapshot though?
tawdry pulsar
maximising the timer on gar/rup
balmy condor
the extra damage from subterfuge and nightstalker are snapshotted
exsang snapshots haste
other than that, no
if its not empowered in any way from the above, you refresh in pandemic
toxic tusk
It makes me wonder how much dps I lose using mutilate accidentally at 4 or 5 Congo points.
tawdry pulsar
you mentioned pandemic, I don't really use that term so I wasn't sure what you meant
balmy condor
aha
pandemic is a game mechanic named after an old warlock ability
you can refresh garrote/rupture before they time out
up to 30% of the duration of the new dot being applied
so garrote is always 18 seconds
30% of 18 is 5.4
so if the garrote isn't empowered
you can hit garrote at anything less than 5.4 seconds left
and it's completely dps neutral
tawdry pulsar
i've always applied rupture at 7ish seconds and garrote at 5ish seconds
but these are 5cp ruptures
toxic tusk
Yeah pandemic was messing with me too
balmy condor
5cp rupture is 7.2, 4cp is 6
tawdry pulsar
so i guess instead of 5cp rup i just apply rup with 4cp at 7 seconds?
toxic tusk
also, sbs?
balmy condor
the duration of slice/rupture changes based on your current combo points
so the pandemic window changes as well
toxic tusk
Wait hang on, didn’t the damage used to increase as well based on the points? Or was it always just the duration?
Sorry. I’ll let Vee talk.
Didn’t mean to try and hijack
tawdry pulsar
i believe back in the day rupture had increased damage based on cp
could be wrong though
tawdry pulsar
too much maths for me
toxic tusk
So is the old “only rupture on 5 cp” not a thing anymore?
tawdry pulsar
looks like it
balmy condor
it hasn't been a thing for a long time, yes
toxic tusk
That aaah. Changes things.
stoic needle
I just use a weakaura that glows when stuff is in pandemic so I don't need to do math
tawdry pulsar
got a link?
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
balmy condor
all of these should do pandemic timers
tawdry pulsar
ugh guess i gotta pick them out then lol
balmy condor
I made mine color if I empowered them as well
toxic tusk
So the only move really to care about max combo points is envenom?
toxic tusk
Never go to five?
balmy condor
I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over
toxic tusk
You are and I’m sorry.
stoic needle
I have a simple one that's just dot timers https://wago.io/Lp33X6aon
toxic tusk
Oh god no
balmy condor
you finish
toxic tusk
I’m already doing that
tawdry pulsar
easy mistake to do that
because your brain is wired to "must hit rup/snd at 5cp"
even if u got 4cp
dw i've played like that since mop lol
toxic tusk
That’s exactly what it is.
stoic needle
You can use shiv to get to 5 from 4
toxic tusk
Yup.
stoic needle
Or sepsis
tawdry pulsar
i do that when it's not on cd
balmy condor
yeh, you can shiv/garrote just fine, since that's not overcapping
tawdry pulsar
also do we use vanish on cd?
balmy condor
the point is wasting combo points
tawdry pulsar
for subterfuge window?
stoic needle
Yep
balmy condor
also do we use vanish on cd?
yes, either to refresh an empowered garrote with subt, an empowered rupture with nightstalker, or for the crit window on MA
toxic tusk
You know what other mistake I made a lot? Using subtf, id put on a garrotte and then like 12 seconds later use garrotte normally to go from 4 to 5 cp.
tawdry pulsar
oo so i refresh emp gar on opener ?
stoic needle
That's the only time I'd hold vanish
balmy condor
oo so i refresh emp gar on opener ?
yes, you garrote from stealth with subt, and when that hits pandemic, you can vanish into another one
tawdry pulsar
alright
i've never vanished once during a fight unless i needed to get out of cb
lmao
balmy condor
rest in piece that entire talent row
stoic needle
Lining up shiv, vanish and vendetta is nice
toxic tusk
I made that mistake for a long time too vee.
tawdry pulsar
btw what's the best in 45 tree?
stoic needle
Shiv, vendetta, vanish into garotte then spam envenoms
balmy condor
btw what's the best in 45 tree?
alacrity is the only choice
tawdry pulsar
thought so
balmy condor
exsang used to be really good, but we don't have any borrowed power buffing our bleed damage anymore
so back to the dumpster with exsang
tawdry pulsar
are these talents good for m+
elab
subt
vigor
cd
prey
alacrity
ct
toxic tusk
I miss trading tricks for dps.
stoic needle
Iron wire> prey imo
fallow solar
Does assa beat out outlaw on 2/target fights?
torn token
no
fallow solar
That's pretty shit man
balmy condor
are these talents good for m+
elab
subt
vigor
cd
prey
alacrity
ct
MFD is very good in m+, but otherwise, yes
tawdry pulsar
ohh i didn't see mfd is 30 seconds now
that's kinda huge
i probably wouldn't know what to use mfd for though
env?
stoic needle
Getting up SnD Prepull
Or literally anything that takes cp. Fine for Ruptures, CT, SnD or envenom
tawdry pulsar
btw with the WA you linked