i just wanna see assassin rogues in pvp 😢
#assassination
dry rover
potent raft
it was a reply/continuation on the 2 guys above
knotty heron
So again - i was on heroic last night but, at 207 ilvl im sitting around 20% haste unbuffed
We have four rogues in our raid including me and I was consistently higher than all of them as assassin
dense cedar
20% is a high value
knotty heron
So excited honestly
dense cedar
like across all fights?
knotty heron
I felt SO much more comfortable than on sub which helped im sure
Ill look again
There was one i think that our outlaw beat me but
Even on Kael i didnt do awful
Crimson tempest felt great
vital karma
what potency conduits are you guys running
dense cedar
WPS
knotty heron
I ran well placed steel and vile poisons
stoic needle
Lethal poisons is what I run
knotty heron
Ok i looked back
vital karma
hmm
it looks like my assa is simming for around 9% less dps than outlaw
not bad
much better than before for sure
knotty heron
The outlaw beat me on shriekwing - which may have been bad luck. He barely beat me on Kael, but tons of adds so ok. And he hedged me out slightly on Inerva
I was top on all others as sin
ornate dawn
I hate Kael as assass 
knotty heron
Alls Im saying is... TRY IT GUYS! It is fine. It isnt the best but
If you like sin
Try it
tropic ocean
usually assassination automatically buffs itself with gear scale
daring pecan
scaling
knotty heron
Can you explain @balmy condor ?
balmy condor
and that has absolutely nothing to with what I said
sure it does, you said sin buffs itself with gear scale, and I told you that it actually doesn't
knotty heron
Ive seen you say that before but I don’t understand
frail fossil
Easy as that
tropic ocean
theyll likely not buff it for the rest of the expansion
usually assassination automatically buffs itself with gear scale
frail fossil
why wasnt that the case in bfa T_T
Cuz maybe sub was nerfed into being unplayable
Scaling is not a thing
balmy condor
Ive seen you say that before but I don’t understand
real quickly then, there's a community perception that sin gets better with gear, and becomes the spec of choice pretty much auto-magically just because of stats
balmy condor
that perception is built on placebo bullshit
frail fossil
If it's not
balmy condor
because haste makes it faster
frail fossil
It'll be bad
balmy condor
it doesn't make it better automatically
case in point is right now
sub is ahead of sin by X percent
what that percent is, doesn't quite matter for this
lets call it 3, just to have a number
if its 3%, in 170 gear fresh from leveling
and you give both specs full 226 gear
that will grow
might be 3.5%, might be 4%, might be 3.2%
doesn't matter
the point is, the gap widens
and that trends continues
on and on and on
as you give it more gear
loud niche
So sub is the one that gets buffed with more gear? Why would that be?
tropic ocean
x
leaden plinth
better tuned spec gets even better at higher gear lvls
raven egret
people talking like specs are league champions "my ad ratio is better"
tropic ocean
better tuned spec gets even better at higher gear lvls
is that so?
knotty heron
Id assume that the new diminishing returns on haste also hurts?
potent raft
i think what whispyr is trying to say (correct me if i'm wrong)
the "widening of the gap with more gear" is a phenomena of "having a gap in the first place"
rather than how 2 individual specs scale
knotty heron
Since higher haste is harder to get
toxic tusk
Think of a straight line and draw another straight line beside it, but just slightly off the angle by like 1 percent. Further down the road the game between them is huge.
frail fossil
it wont get high
tired condor
Thanks for your help. Although sub is number wise better I think I might just stick with sin and hope for the best. I prefer the play style and tbh it doesn’t seem that big of a difference to me , right now atleast
toxic tusk
Dude, do that!
balmy condor
i think what whispyr is trying to say (correct me if i'm wrong)
the "widening of...
well.... not really
frail fossil
unless it gets buff or bonker borrowed power it wont get better
balmy condor
you have to have a difference in scaling for gaps to grow
toxic tusk
I’m playing assassination and not changing because I enjoy it. And if you’re a good player and not in a high end hardcore guild, you CAN keep up.
toxic tusk
That’s what I meant.
knotty heron
I’m playing assassination and not changing because I enjoy it. And if you’re a g...
Agree. As an average player, i performed better as sin than as sub due to comfort
raven egret
if you are not in a high end guild, chances are players don't play perfectly
which is what his point was
loud niche
Sin sims 250 dps lower than sub for me, and I'm in a guild on m3/10. I would like to think I'm better than average :3 and ill be bringing sin to raid tomorrow
knotty heron
My guild actually complimented “how good i performed last night”
tropic ocean
thats not an issue
knotty heron
And i told them it was because I was sin vs sub
tropic ocean
see sin rogues logging real good before 8% buff already
knotty heron
And they were like whaaat
tropic ocean
its just you wont keep up with someone on a better spec unless he plays worse
if thats fine play w/e
toxic tusk
We all want to feel like we’re good, and dps metres for the longest time gave us rhat.
leaden plinth
logs are relative to the same spec
white delta
well tbh now sin might be better for raid then sub, it has way better 2-3 target cleave
tropic ocean
logs are relative to the same spec
dps numbers are not
knotty heron
Sin doesnt burst like sub but it falls off
leaden plinth
true but u just said logs
knotty heron
Once their cool downs are down assassin keeps climbing
frail fossil
that sin guy at the top of the all star point
tropic ocean
yeah and check his flat dps
frail fossil
was not doing good dmg
balmy condor
that sin guy at the top of the all star point
PEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN
tropic ocean
in some fights vs what top subs/outlaws did
toxic tusk
But another way to look at it too is, parse high. If you’re parsing blue, purple or legendary (orange ish?), you’re doing good and you aren’t the problem.
lament aurora
peen sucks
tropic ocean
not always true
frail fossil
peen did not to good dmg, but since he knew his shit and no one plays sin
tropic ocean
there was r1? warlock at demonology I think
frail fossil
he got big parse
tropic ocean
with 1k dps
frail fossil
this is all there is
balmy condor
there was r1? warlock at demonology I think
double garrote stealth pogggggggggggggggggggggggg
frail fossil
there was r1? warlock at demonology I think
he got 5 PI
balmy condor
wrong ping
tropic ocean
?
toxic tusk
Aus, doesn’t song like very much is going to make you happy eh?
tropic ocean
what are you talking about
tropic ocean
you don't get what im saying
frail fossil
he had 5 priest rotating PI
tropic ocean
at a time there was r1 log for 1k dps warlock
because there simply was no other log
for the boss
frail fossil
yeah, same for Peen
like no one played sin
he did
so he parsed high
but his dmg was not good
tropic ocean
thats y you compare his dps numbers
frail fossil
big props to peen tho
tropic ocean
not % log
frail fossil
i love him
raven egret
first sin lootspec vault, 223 dagger
toxic tusk
I finally replaced my gloves. From blue robot chicken choking gauntlets to purple robot chicken choking gauntlets.
tropic ocean
yeah
frail fossil
how is that good dps
tropic ocean
thats a top 30 sub rogue log
frail fossil
yeah cub sub sucks
tropic ocean
before 8% buff
frail fossil
check at outlaw
lmfao
like it's not good dps
u just compared to the worst 2 target spec
3.7k on shriekwing
like it's not good dps bro
toxic tusk
Everything is relative
frail fossil
he was not pumping FAT dps
like u said
he was just performing well, and played a spec no one did
so he got all 100
rigid tartan
since haste is bae, assa rogues for PI 
tropic ocean
but im not talking about the 100%
frail fossil
yeah
tropic ocean
and 6k dps is not bad
tropic ocean
cg if everyone in your guild does 6k dps on huntsman
tropic ocean
u just compared to the worst 2 target spec
but for that comparison you also need to compare it accurately on shriekwing
in a fight with forced downtime, obviously sub will be very good
tropic ocean
because as you said, sin is better than sub in 2 target cleave
frail fossil
yeah on shriekwing
tropic ocean
but so is sub better in a fight like shriekwing
tropic ocean
and thats not in doubt?
frail fossil
it's not good dps comparative to other spec
he's doing very well for a sin rogue
but not for a dps overall
tropic ocean
frail fossil
sub is the last spec on huntsman ranking
tropic ocean
it will get a lot better thats all and thats good
pastel notch
Have people tried it in raid yet? What's the verdict?
lament aurora
Did it in raid last night and it felt great @pastel notch
pastel notch
Kapp or?
lament aurora
You won't be #1 but you can put out good numbers
pastel notch
tulip grove
anyone tried sin in pvp?
loud niche
Its actually decent tho, just not in arenas. Go RBGs and laugh at the players casting while you garrote 3 of them and start stacking bleeds. In AB I was top dmg running crim tempest and subterfuge. Thats at 1700 rbg rating.
daring pecan
wow 1700 rbg rating
gleaming fable
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
loud niche
i mean, what is your rbg rating serchiot? i just started playing rbg's yesterday
nova gulch
How does the dmg buff seem to affect sin so far?
crimson kettle
they are the best class rn
nova gulch
Debating if i should craft zoldyck or mark of the master assassin this week
spice spire
It’s fine. Still worst rogue spec but overall we’re fine
crimson kettle
i mean spec
loud niche
If you wanna maxout your EPEEN size just play otl
dense cedar
@crimson kettle 
loud niche
it's actually the best spec rn
spice spire
🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
balmy condor
We’re climbin boys
crimson kettle
fakenews
spice spire
Not last in the last day, only one parse tho 
loud niche
lol, they really need to fix something. melee being the highest dmg done for us isnt really a good thing. just means that doing nothing but snd auto attacking is all you really do
i find it really strange that they'd make rogues so incredibly weak right now too, and i really hope they keep buffing us, and preferably sin by more than the others. imo it should be the highest dps spec for ST or 2 target fights.
crimson kettle
just wait until we gotta wear 2 leggos and subs gonna get nerfed again
crimson kettle
op
charred cliff
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
wise robin
what is the suggested piece to craft zoldyck in?
frigid sleet
legs
wise robin
With haste > crit, yes?
balmy condor
Haste crit or haste Vers both fine
wise robin
Ty
balmy condor
When gearing on sin it’s really haste for a while, then Crit vers catches up, and then haste crit and vers are all roughly the same
And mastery is just sad in the corner because it’s okay-ish, but never good enough to be a real stat
And it just wants to play with the other stats
wise robin
Yeah im at 16% haste + I use Ovecharged Anima Battery
I'm assuming 20% haste is the main goal?
balmy condor
We don’t have a goal
rustic thunder
So, have u tried assa in the raid? How is it after the buffs in your opinion after playing around?
balmy condor
I played with it
It’s okay
It’s worse than sub where you expect it to be
But it’s not trash
rustic thunder
I expect it to be super good on sludgefist and denathrius
balmy condor
Sludge definitely not
torpid sluice
Testing it on a dummy and the procs from the talent makes it atleast more engaging than sub imho 😂
balmy condor
Denathrius probably yeah
wise robin
What's the suggested build for assa in CN? I've come to realise wowheads builds are often not the same as suggested as disc
loud niche
always check here for builds, rogues are a bunch of elitist pricks so we're all here calling out poor play, but on a site like wowhead they just let their people post w/e
umbral mesa
I guess you need to switch talents for nearly every boss
dense cedar
Sin is good guys
umbral mesa
so maybe check logs and see what the few guys are picking
dense cedar
u can get an orange in normal with 7fps
gleaming fable
wowhead rogue guids are fine, they are made by TCs of this discord
dense cedar
imagine how good its dmg must be if u can actually move to follow the boss
balmy condor
All the guides we list under !guide are fine
dense cedar
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
balmy condor
Seli writes the icyveins ones
dense cedar
why isn't mine there
balmy condor
Mystler writes wowhead
loud niche
i've seen many wowhead guides not written by any TC's from here
balmy condor
Various people write ravenholdt
balmy condor
Well that’s not a spec guide
Thats a community made guide
Who gives a shit about those
dense cedar
I wish Sin was better
loud niche
lets all hope for sin to get more buffs next week or another 2 weeks from now
and in the mean time ill just play it for funsies in H
dense cedar
its next buff will be 9.1 borrowed power
where using our cov ability grants crit that stacks every time a dot ticks
or some shit
loud niche
9.1 would be out in like 2-3 months from now tho, sooooo
lets just hope for another % buff or something in 2 weeks :3
tight sparrow
Dont think thats going to happen, sin is playable now but the ranking didnt change. And thats exactly what they wanted
loud niche
is it playable tho? i mean it's not in a great spot...
tight sparrow
It is. You can clear normal CN with it and thats all it needs to do
wise robin
What numbers do you pull in CN @tight sparrow and what lego you using?
loud niche
lol
ill be doing H CN with it tonight, and ill let you know how it goes. most likely not well
cunning pier
Im sitting at 28% crit 3% haste 33% mastery and 14% versa, how fucked am i with that haste?
211 ilvl
strange python
and every day we answer it to inform those that dont know :3
tight sparrow
What numbers do you pull in CN <@!222490563557982208> and what lego you using?
I was referring to the logs we saw earlier on this channel. I dont think i will try it myself cause i dont want to waste the soul ash on a spec i wont play. Going to stick with outlaw and hope for the best in 9.1
rich yew
I'm pretty sure you have to create a new rogue @cunning pier
rich yew
No way to recover from that stat distribution
maybe in 10.0 they re-introduce reforging + valor system
feral basin
I was referring to the logs we saw earlier on this channel. I dont think i will ...
Guess the 8% buffs haven't really done it justice ?
rich yew
😄
cunning pier
I mean i will keep playing sub but want to be able to switch for specific bosses and not suck cause stats
tulip fern
Far Travellers shoulderpad
rich yew
Give it a try, and see how it goes I guess 😄
tulip fern
oops wrong chat lmao
cunning pier
Give it a try, and see how it goes I guess 😄
Yeah i guess 😄 thanks
lament dove
I will try assa in m+ from now on
I'm also necro and maghar ololol
feral basin
I mean I'm still farming for the celerity legendary recipe on my Rogue (only switched last week) trying to get him up on prep to switch over from my Ret pally.
Was hyped for sin but looks like it'll just be a dungeon spec for now 🤨
dense cedar
Sin for dungeons
obsidian willow
I feel like outlaw still does better dps than sin even on ST
tight sparrow
Sin is for if you like the playstyle of sin
everything else there is outlaw for XD
Maybe sub in some fights
dense cedar
as said earlier but i can imagine switching in raid between sub and sin for certain fights
i can't really see being bothered to switch between outlaw and sin tho lol
crisp edge
what legendary you rocking for m+ ? master assass ?
lament dove
how do you even use MA as assa in m+?
crisp edge
wdym ? garrote a bunch of shet then vanish
lament dove
so you use MA as a 2 min wonder?
crisp edge
its not bad you have it every pack
lament dove
its strength is in being available on every pull
well if every pack takes 2 mins then I guess
crisp edge
no i wasnt talking about vanish i was talking about the re stealth you get on every pack but its not like the other legendaries are gonna do anything intresting anyway doomblade is ok
lament dove
yeah but I mean what do you get out of restealth+MA as assa, crit garrotes? with sub you get a lot of burst due to crit shuriken and secret teq or black powder, but with assa not much...
dense cedar
Zoldyck is best for M+ iirc
lament dove
since you want to garrote on pulls anyway
torn hinge
guys Zoldyck on legs or feet?
crisp edge
why would zoldyck be good for m+ ? it makes 0 sense to me you wanna burst down a pack in m+ how long are they gonna stay below 30 % for that thing to deliver any valid results
daring pecan
pants, magic pants
lament aurora
the way you use MA in m+ is high cp generation with FoK, you don't actually want to subt garrote each mob if u have MA
wise robin
@crisp edge That's like saying kill shot and execute is trash abilities.
dense cedar
well for most enemies u spend more time in the latter part of their hp than the start of it
lament dove
since everyone is bursting for max hp mobs, I think you would be surprised how long that last 30% lasts compared to other %s
or even if it didn't last more, it needs to be done more quickly because of some mechanics that f*ck you over if not
crisp edge
@wise robin what you said is one of the most laughable things i ever heard execute nad killshot are instant dmg you dont do instant dmg as rogue you do bleeds and poisons which both are periodic dmg not instant
dense cedar
rogue poison does instant dmg also
wise robin
yeah you clearly don't understand it. You'd be spamming FOk and hopefulyl having alot of uptime on your ruptures. So clearly you need to get out of your tunnelvision
dense cedar
FoK is 100% insant dmg change also iirc
wise robin
Your deadlypoison deals insta dmg + adds a DoT.
wise robin
In addition you will be able to get 30% more value from your already applied rupture
crisp edge
yea but why should fan of knives have anything to do with your bleeds ? your only applying poisons
lament dove
every tick of the dot is instant dmg 😛
strange python
yeah but I mean what do you get out of restealth+MA as assa, crit garrotes? with...
depending on packs and affix you might want to open with fok and CT if the mobs won't last the full duration of garrote
wise robin
So laugh away all you want, I pity you, for judging me, when you clearly have no idea.
lament dove
and when you FoK, you can apply instant poison dmg, plus your dots are already on the targets which get extra dmg under 30%
strange python
MA ensures 5 cp on fok
lament dove
no it doesn't
crisp edge
everything you guys are talking about ! it all depends on how long that pack stays alive below 30 % hp
lament dove
did you try it?
crisp edge
and so far from what i see packs dont last that long specially in tyrra weeks and lower keys
strange python
obviously
strange python
I prefer MA specially in Tyrannical
lament dove
I prefer MA specially in Tyrannical
but you don't FoK on bosses, so what does MA do as assa there?
crisp edge
is envenom considered a poison dmg to ?
lament dove
then why do you prefer it on tyrannical, what does that have to do with anything:P
strange python
so I prefer to ramp up faster on packs
because packs die faster
so ramping up on packs becomes more important
lament dove
alright, I tried MA with opening FoK and it seemed a disaster to me
although I didn't play much assa lately, for obvious reasons...
strange python
nonono - don't always do that
specially on fortified
only open with fok-CT on adds with low hp
but if you take 2 cp from previous packs you can 3xgar+ct and everything crits
dense cedar
@crisp edge Shiv treats Envenom as a poison, so I belive so
plus envenom causes u to proc deadly more often
wise robin
@crisp edge envenom is nature dmg, so yes poison
lament dove
I get that, but compare that with a sub rogue who opens with a shuriken+secret combo...
crisp edge
the action of envenom itself is a finisher not a poison ! atleast base on what im reading of the thing
but he might be right idk
dense cedar
wise robin
strange python
I get that, but compare that with a sub rogue who opens with a shuriken+secret c...
I mean if you consider fortified weeks assa has good aoe on high keys
the issue is that both sub and assa are inferior to outlaw lol
vivid hearth
Do we run m+ with CT or PB ?
strange python
I normally use CT
crisp edge
thing with MA is that you only get a huge value of it every vanish thats what i hate about it
wish vanish had lower cd
lament dove
ok, but I'm talking about how useful MA is for assa compared to other legos
I don't think that MA is so good for assa especially for m+ as is is for the other 2 specs
dense cedar
MA is either equal or barely behind zoldyck afaik
its not bad
NW its best tho
hehe
crisp edge
i like doom blades for single targeting a target on top of a bunch
strange python
MA is also very nice for cross-spec use
vivid hearth
NW?
vivid hearth
aha
yeah
yeah MA can be used for both sin and sub
so pretty great value if testing out both
strange python
also very good for world content and casual pvp
vivid hearth
yeah
strange python
some people also use it in rated pvp
which makes sense for bgs, not su much for arenas
(from a assa perspective
crisp edge
problem with assa is that you need haste
other 2 specs are crit vers
pretty shitty state
lament aurora
outlaw uses plenty of haste too what
wise robin
outlaw requires haste too
strange python
haste is only meh in sub
wise robin
if you play outlaw without haste, you're doing it wrong tbh
strange python
and even in sub is a perfectly valid stat
crisp edge
does that necrotic wake trinket stack with master poisoner and zoldyck ?
and shiv obviously
lament dove
probably not
crisp edge
i mean its nture dmg
wise robin
TMK NW trinket rolled pretty high in value pre-raid trinkets
alongside phial of putrefaction
strange python
also with full stack alacrity (+21% base haste) I sometimes get to benefit from MA in 5 attacks
but I'll let other people comment on that
rich yew
Yes, assa now godtier. If you reverse the charts
old hamlet
lol
rich yew
No buff wasn't enough, but if you play better as sin you might perform better then other specs you play.
lament dove
btw, why is it that with full alacrity, running bleeds and everything I have to wait for energy while with outlaw I usually fighting to be able to spend all the energy... I mean how can there be so big difference in getting energy, seriously...
rich yew
I wouldn't be suprised if it's a bug tbh
some energy refunding coding going wrong
bleeds not stacking energy regen, somthing like that
covert solstice
sin is doing fine in castle logs
celest marlin
is assa best spec now?
real bay
you would see that in logs
wise robin
in legion there was talent that'd give you energy back on rupture tickcs @lament dove and since we suffer hard from energy regen, even with 10% energy regen increase from SnD it's better to pool energy. Else it's a slight dps loss afaik
dense cedar
@lament dove u spend less time using expensive builders as outlaw
lament aurora
yes assa is the best spec in the game swap now asap before nerfs
strange python
I'm at 21% haste and I do agree that energy still needs to be pooled for certain phases
dense cedar
garrote is a huge energy sink to maintain
plus sin doesn't have combat potency
which is very good
wise robin
combat potency is beast
Venomous wounds ain't bad, but it's subpar on ST compared to potency from outlaw
lament dove
then I don't get it:) as I sad, I spam my builder like crazy to get rid of energy as outlaw...
dense cedar
ye
strange python
a nice improvement would be to make CT baseline and give it's bleed like 1/2 energy via wounds
dense cedar
but u also generate more
the ratio is closer
while on sin it isn't
so that 50 energy for mut
wise robin
you have alot more energy regen in outlaw, than you do as assasination @limpid canyon .
dense cedar
is much bigger
lament dove
make energy sendable by mail to my other spec please...
dense cedar
1 point of energy on Sin is different to 1 point on outlaw
wise robin
If you read Combat Potency passive in outlaw you'll get why
dense cedar
rip whoever u pinged lol
lament dove
that's my point @wise robin why is there such a big difference between specs regarding this...
wise robin
Venomous wounds is 7 energy per TICK from Gar and Rup. Which is not "bad" but definetly not good, compared to Combat Potency
wise robin
My guess is, that because if you crit with mutilate, you can literally build 4 cps in 1 global.
And as outlaw you'd need RtB proc to do that
lament dove
yes but now we are arriving into scaling territory which doesn't exist as we know it...
dense cedar
energy regen usually doesn't scale
since haste doesn't make thaat big of a difference
strange python
Venthyr haste would smooth it out I think
dense cedar
it wouldn't matter
lament dove
the problem currently with assa is not really energy regen necessarily, but that we doesn't have CPs and cannot do shit
dense cedar
@strange python well u get stupid amounts of haste inside the window
Sin doesn't do dmg is the issue
more crit wouldn't solve that very well
crisp edge
haste is big guys dont be stupid your melee is most of your dmg and that scales with haste
dense cedar
cos u still wouldn't be getting a finisher off every 2nd gcd
Haste is good yes
haste doesn't equal big energy regen tho
crisp edge
the problem is assa is none of those things you guys said the problem with assa is that there aare to many shets to press and all of them are on GCD you have no room to breath
wise robin
Haste = more autoattacks, and we literally have highest value DPS from auto attacks. as @crisp edge mentioned. And Crit is ebtter for CP buliding.
crisp edge
its like feral issue back in legion before they changed it
dense cedar
Legion feral is icky
crisp edge
you have to SND garrote rapture shiv stuff so many of them
wise robin
Tbh I feel there's more shit to click in outlaw, than assa
crisp edge
you bearly have enough time to press envenom just like feral had that issue with bite
agile phoenix
Yikes
crisp edge
they need to make some sort of premonition talent for assa like they have one for sub to bypass pressing SnD that would make assa life 10 times better
wise robin
outlaw has nice QoL on SnD as well.
dense cedar
@wise robin wdym?
stuck tartan
yeah
dense cedar
u don't want to have it
wise robin
I sometimes sit on 2minute SnDs in outlaw
stuck tartan
only if u have one of the better ones lmao
lament aurora
you bearly have enough time to press envenom just like feral had that issue with...
ive never had that issue unless im running CT idk
dense cedar
Or very very good luck
u on average get like
2 envenoms inside shiv
which is basically almsot as good as it gets without perfect rng
strange python
2 envenoms inside shiv
kyrian normally allows you to get 3
dense cedar
it depends
strange python
it's a cheaper mut + anima point
dense cedar
it doesn't always align for u
trail moss
so, how's actually going mfd/subterfuge with ma leggo compared to the usual build for st ? seeing some good logs with em here and there
barren forge
wait. was there the argument that sin has too many buttons to press? 😄 rly?
strange python
even if it doesn't align it's a 10 energy 2 cp (3 if you crit)
dense cedar
no i don't think anyone was going on about too many buttons
i think people were mentioning it more as gcd bloat
which i don't think is a real issue
Sin seems fine except for its actual dmg output
only change i would really like gameplay wise is splitting Shiv and TB
dense cedar
every iirc
strange python
Sin seems fine except for its actual dmg output
I would just buff envenom damage
fallen canyon
how does assa feel after buff guys ?
crisp edge
i would change their talent rows like i would basically remove nightstalker and hidden blades you will never ever pick any of those their pointless
dense cedar
especially in an expansion with 1000000 enrage effects
crisp edge
specially nighstalker
dense cedar
like imagine if Sin's kidney shot lasted 3 less seconds for no reason
lament aurora
so, how's actually going mfd/subterfuge with ma leggo compared to the usual bui...
its great, feels very nice to use, but never did the other build so no idea on comparison
lament dove
meanwhile they gave back standalone kidney to outlaw
strange python
meanwhile they gave back standalone kidney to outlaw
that felt like a nerf for pvp outlaw
lament dove
that's what bothers me most tbh, assa has less from everything, less dmg, less movement, less utility, etc.
lament dove
I don't even know if I want to come back to assa after I tasted sub selfheal, double shadowstep, all the stuns and all the everything... only thing I hate is the zero dmg outside of shadowdance, but you can almost shadowdance constantly
crisp edge
dude Night elf is nastyyyyyyy with MA
its nastyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
fuck i wanna be a night elf so bad
stuck tartan
but night elf's with dagger are so ugly
spice spire
No need to go sin if you’re enjoying sub, sub is the better spec lol
dense cedar
@stuck tartan >:(
crisp edge
specially in arena
stuck tartan
<@!189009693308354560> >:(
:( tbh I hate the way night elf dudes move with any weapon so dont worry
stuck tartan
good shit
dense cedar
it only costs gold to swap
stuck tartan
night elf male only exist for druids
crisp edge
they have the sexiest female race of all time
dense cedar
"Something's not quite right..."
strange python
imagine creating a night elf male
as a male orc I lowkey wished I was a male NE
... go ahead bring on the hate
karmic flame
Honestly female night elf customization especially for demon hunters is amazing.
stuck tartan
as a male orc I lowkey wished I was a male NE
... go ahead bring on the hate
atleast you're not mecagnome
spice spire
Male trolls are the best obvi. Good luck finding a transmog tho
stuck tartan
I made a female night elf dk just cause of the new stuff, true true
dense cedar
excited for next week's patch which is replacing Master Assassin with Agonizing Poison for some reason
crisp edge
i mean alliances are like the pretty queens compare to horde litearlly every horde race is ugly AF except blood elf but i hate blood elf even
just compare human/nightelf to every horde race its not even compareable
stuck tartan
female orcs are great tho
karmic flame
@dense cedar. Wait whaaa? Whats agonizing poison even?
dense cedar
@karmic flame was joke
strange python
the idea about horde is to embrace your uglyness
stuck tartan
<@77690417230917632>. Wait whaaa? Whats agonizing poison even?
Old talent
karmic flame
Oh. I was about to commit seppuku.
stuck tartan
Tbh, if they bring back agonizing poison, u take that shit
stuck tartan
Yeah, thats true
karmic flame
It would remove what little cognitive thought I already use.
dense cedar
a poison that's just a dmg buff to everything isn't good design
swift sky
please no ap again
stuck tartan
I did enjoy it yeah
karmic flame
Assassin rogue needs a gun.
dense cedar
I mean that was during the age of the like
stuck tartan
ToS wasnt it
karmic flame
Give them a gun. Call the talent modern assassin.
dense cedar
barely more than a minute CD Vendetta
stuck tartan
cause of the legendary boots, feels good
dense cedar
Nighthold
stuck tartan
truee
dense cedar
cos trinket
swift sky
it had a stupid bug where it would double kingsbane damage
karmic flame
Then we become ranged and itll be funnt.
karmic flame
They have a shitty flintlock pistol. Not a .50 cal of pure go fuck yourself lol.
karmic flame
Assassin rogues just be in the back critting raid bosses for 100k while everyones wondering why the melee with daggers has a .50 cal sniper lol.
stoic needle
so, how's actually going mfd/subterfuge with ma leggo compared to the usual bui...
I don't think this is an actual build, I think it was just some dude who usually plays other specs trying out sin
MA is just purely worse than zoldyck
And MFD is not as good as vigor for st
Subt is fine
karmic flame
I thought the fun build was using zoldyck. Then using the talent with 50% crit and using vanish and envenom.
stoic needle
What
stoic needle
what about running MA and zoldyck together <@!502859708504342538>
It's too early in the morning for this
dense cedar
stoic needle
People need to take the first week of logs from sin with a grain of salt
Anybody who is a good player in a decent guild can get a 99/100 this week
lament dove
btw, if you run finality as assa does it buff your rupture? lol
stoic needle
Doesn't mean their build is actually good
stoic needle
Celerity doesn't work 
dense cedar
CTO works in Sin
lament aurora
I don't think this is an actual build, I think it was just some dude who usually...
wat
stoic needle
But like none of the buffs work
dense cedar
@stoic needle ?
karmic flame
I use blindside master ass vigor alacrity and poison bomb -shrug- i have a lot of crit mastery though. Thats just what rng gave me.
dense cedar
that's the normal build @karmic flame
stoic needle
And all of the nathria gear has mastery on it lol
karmic flame
Its a lot of fun honestly.
dense cedar
Sin is fun
stoic needle
<@!502859708504342538> ?
dense cedar
but i enjoy outlaw too much to ever consider swapping lol
karmic flame
The vanish envenom crits are kinda spicy.
dense cedar
outlaw is good and fun
perfect combo
iirc vanish is used for CP generation in the APL @karmic flame
when runnign ma talent
better off asking a TC or checking urself tho
stoic needle
Yeah vanish envenom is kind of a pvp thing
karmic flame
So fun fact. I cant be outlaw cause i have yet to get a single 1h weapon
lament aurora
?
thats what sims the highest of all the talents, not like i'm trolling or something
stoic needle
thats what sims the highest of all the talents, not like i'm trolling or somethi...
I'd like to see that because it doesn't sim that way for anyone else
dense cedar
but virtually impossible to be traded a dagger
stoic needle
Didn't say you were trolling and there's nothing wrong with trying out new stuff either, don't get me wrong
karmic flame
Ive had people just disenchant weapons in front of me to be fair lol.
stoic needle
But people are just blindly copying what they see in top logs and uhhh that's not the play
dense cedar
i mean u should probs ask for the weapon
if they are just on the spot disenchanting end of dungeon upgrades
fucking blacklist them
lmao
actually hyper toxicity
spice spire
Have I been trolling or was the 8% buff that significant? Subterfuge is simming way less than MA for me now
dense cedar
its significant to the overall dmg of sin
stoic needle
Whispyr posted something last night where MA was +15 dps over subt
karmic flame
@dense cedar. So what would the rotation be? I thought vengeance when low on energy + shiv and seps into vanish into amb into 5 cp combo was a thing? Or is there a better thing.
dense cedar
but not to its overall dmg against other specs
spice spire
It’s even more than that for me, it’s like 40ish
karmic flame
Im not an assassin guru. Its my funsie spec.
stoic needle
Shit now I gotta check
dense cedar
so its good when its better
dense cedar
subt fun on aoe
ye
but st its just stronger dot
very not exciting
compared to super crito 4cp opener
spice spire
I like sub as well
karmic flame
So you just end up getting more dps with mutilate crits instead of envenom crits even with zoldycks execute thing?
spice spire
Im trolling, it’s way less of a diff. I still had EP on instead of blindside. I know I’ve been trolling with EP tho
dense cedar
@karmic flame its not just the dmg
its the fact u get more cp per energy and gcds spent
when using mut
karmic flame
Hm. I'll give it a try next time im by my computer and not looking for a job since we all lost ours iver congress arguing about statues hah.
Thanks for tip :)
cinder crater
is assasination better now than sub?
dense cedar
sometimes
manic forge
I've read the pinned paragraph but does anyone have first hand experience how the buff makes Assas, specifically in M+ keys compared to outlaw? I barely raid so more interested in high key dungeons
spice spire
is assasination better now than sub?
No on a raw number point
cinder crater
in pvp is it good?
sleek otter
@cinder crater sub is still the go to but I consistently do more damage than a warrior in 2s
cinder crater
wow
karmic flame
I dont think assassin ever competes with outlaw in myth +. Celerity and its aoe is just too . . . uh . . . impressive and its single target isnt even awful. On top of that it has more interrupts.
dense cedar
So this must be how survival hunters feel
manic forge
Survi...? No never heard of them :p
karmic flame
Its really hard to justify asss to elitists imho but thats just me.
dense cedar
i don't think its elitism to not want a sin rogue
since they don't really
do anything
stoic needle
they do damage
which is our job
you doing 400 dps less than outlaw isnt gonna prevent you from timing a key
stoic needle
the only argument against sin is the one less interrupt/less cc
stoic needle
still doesnt make or break a group imo
dense cedar
if it did more dmg but had less utility
real bay
nobody brings rogue to "high" key for damage when theres classes that burst x3 higher
dense cedar
i could see that
earnest gyro
Ints matter in a double range meta.
coral imp
it will in higher keys
karmic flame
One less interrupt. One less CC thats better than everyone elses cc. Less aoe.
lament aurora
was just showing him why i go these talents
crisp edge
idk why but since the buff my sepsis is doing like 30k ish
with vendetta and everything
karmic flame
I wish i was 221 ilvl haha
lament aurora
if i go blindside I have to go vigor and i really like MFD
dense cedar
idk how the sim treats it
lament aurora
mfd feels better for a lot of these raid fights
stoic needle
calling that simming best is a bit of a stretch but its cool that it's a sidegrade
spice spire
Vigor is simming +4
stoic needle
and you need some ridiculous gear to get to that point lol
spice spire
So it’s by no means best bar none. But it’s a side grade and that’s neat
dense cedar
but i think there are some fights where the 35% and less portion would be better to have the dmg
spice spire
Didn’t think I’d see the day tbh
dense cedar
blindside seems better for prog
stoic needle
execute is our niche atm
blindside is more execute
i can definitely see MFD on some of these fights with adds
dense cedar
@lament aurora u have ur daggers on backwards btw
Sidearm should be offhand
makes more sense
namewise
plain thistle
stoic needle
ya like that's definitely a gear thing, i simmed the same talents and it's 100dps worse for me lmao
MA is 17dps over subt for me for ST though that's pretty decent
wind zenith
is sin still far behind 😦
mortal tartan
if you have no groups and all you do is pug then i can see a problem with sin
other than that its fine if you already have a guild that you raid with/do mythics with
stoic needle
sire denathrius
mortal tartan
it felt good on denathrius
stoic needle
or any prog in general
mortal tartan
last night for me
dense cedar
next time i raid is chilltimes heroic
so
i don't really have a prog to worry about
SD really it?
that's uh
better than before I suppose
dense cedar
why would anything multitarget be better lol
mortal tartan
im talking about anything where you can utilize your legendary well
dense cedar
i mean
with spec swapping again being my thing
idk why going sin on multitarget would be the call
dense cedar
it doesn't show to be better than not swapping is my point tho
even if i had better weapons
dense cedar
i mean i started the convo
its about whatever i think lol
so rn seems like first 7 outlaw (sludge maybe sin?) outlaw for generals and then sin for SD I guess
mortal tartan
i mean i don't think its really that important if you spec swap to sin on those fights
if you are just doing chill heroics
your spec shouldn't be the 1 thing holding your team back warranting a swap
dense cedar
i want to spec swap if its worth doing
because doing more dmg is fun
its not because i'd have to its because i'd want to
strange python
I’d be surprised if an equally geared sin rogue didn’t do more damage on sludge
Especially if execute window lust and charge all line up
mortal tartan
i mean outlaw to sin isn't that bad because they both have the same stat prio
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
mortal tartan
outlaw is haste/vers isn't it?
stoic needle
it is
mortal tartan
yeah so like that swap doesn't sound too bad
but like if you run the same build and you are switching sub - sin then i don't see the point
fallen canyon
yeah
wind zenith
the weapons bit is frustrating tho
mortal tartan
haste on sub is like last isn't it
strange python
That’s fair
strange python
On sludge?
dense cedar
so i think maybe sludge and SD is the way to go for it
strange python
Or do you mean overall
dense cedar
Sludge i can't tell about in a vacuum
fallen canyon
what are your guys thoughts about assasination on m+ with the buff
strange python
Substantially worse than outlaw in m+
Well overall sin was never going to keep up with outlaw
onyx flame
so assa still worst rogue spec?
mortal tartan
i don't think its better than outlaw or sub but its not completely awful anymore
onyx flame
ah kk
strange python
The real question is whether rogue is even considered a dps class anymore
ornate dawn
Sin - not completely awful, thats our tagline for this xpac
spice spire
so assa still worst rogue spec?
Yes but it’s playable unlike before.
mortal tartan
i feel like rogue in general is just useless now
dense cedar
I think for a spec to be "fine"
delicate bone
yea were just super useless, just dont play rogue
dense cedar
it should be truly competitive on at least one fight
with its other specs
not even against other classes
spice spire
I’ve been relegated to mechanics Bitch
strange python
Rogue is by no means useless. But the class fantasy has been shifted
strange python
Somewhere around legion they decided rogues were mechanics bitches in raids and trash damage gods on one spec
Which is weird because my class fantasy has always been topping the meter on sludgefist esque fights
spice spire
“Hey, Quake, you’re on seed duty” “also soak traps, also in case range miss a seed, you’re on that as well”
mortal tartan
how often do you use rogues utility in CN
stuck tartan
Tbh I'm the mechanic bitch because my last guild only had half the brain active
ornate dawn
“Hey, Quake, you’re on seed duty” “also soak traps, also in case range miss a se...
Feel you bro
spice spire
how often do you use rogues utility in CN
All the time actually. You can cloak the dot off altimeter, feint for aoe damage. There’s a bit of utility involved
mortal tartan
im talking about like actually using it to help your team
not survive
like isn't the point of our class to be this utility god or something
like stuns and stuff
spice spire
Oh, cloak soak every fight possible
stoic needle
that was probably the height of my rogue skills
ornate dawn
Yeah but if you cloak the add you cant cleave it for more dps 😉
stoic needle
idk how but something just told me "you should cloak now"
obtuse garnet
@stoic needle dks can do it on every addwave
spice spire
Hungering, altimor, artificer on heroic. Evasion tanking and shit is also useful
stoic needle
<@502859708504342538> dks can do it on every addwave <:SucksMan:5862054620100034...
every wave wtf
spice spire
Prog I’ve used it a bit, on farm lmao never
stuck tartan
idk how but something just told me "you should cloak now"
anime rogue powers, or oshosi's tingle
obtuse garnet
every wave wtf
only 1min cooldown on AMS
mortal tartan
shroud is like useless now isn't it?
spice spire
I use it as a meme before every fight
stoic needle
nop
stuck tartan
same
spice spire
But in raid? Ye
stuck tartan
"to get closer" lmao
ornate dawn
They could make shroud useful in raids, make it a magic dmg reduction chance or something, since you slip into the shadows
spice spire
“They’ll never see us coming”
Yeah but skipping some shitty trash can be a use, but if you’re wiping on trash, yikes
stuck tartan
"Wow, 20 guys were right in front of me and now they're gone, weeeird man"
stoic needle
i use shroud in HoA, plaguefall, NW, DoS, and spires
mortal tartan
if you absolutely need to shroud over trash because its too hard
i think its already doomed
ornate dawn
bloodlust trash and reset the boss ezclap
spice spire
That’s why I specifically said raid. Fuck the mini boss in necrotic wake before the bridge. All my homies hate him
mortal tartan
oh true fuck that kid
agile phoenix
pvp chats abit dead, what leggo would you use for arena if u wanted to go assa?
stuck tartan
MA for burst with nightstalker
spice spire
pvp chats abit dead, what leggo would you use for arena if u wanted to go assa?
MA more than likely. Doomblade also worth considering apparently
stuck tartan
or zoldyck for pressure sometimes
agile phoenix
ok gna try it out
ornate dawn
Good luck soldier
agile phoenix
any sims btw? how high have people got with sin compared to other specs
strange python
So... is assa back in the game?
dense cedar
No
thorn echo
I think so tbh Boss uptime is so important in so many of the fight it really isn't quite as bad as everyone says
its not quite there
spice spire
For reference, our boomy at 204 was 5414. So no, it’s not really there
thorn echo
but its closer
spice spire
5200 is Deece tho
spice spire
And yeah our bleeds and poison damage are also vastly over estimated
thorn echo
don't get me wrong
thorn echo
so correct it still sucks seeing melee dmg as the highest
ornate dawn
5000 @ around 210
spice spire
Buff puts them in the “good enough” category
thorn echo
agreed ^ well said
brisk flicker
I'm curious to see how Assass does in M+ now
grim wolf
assa prolly does...ok, for m+? you still have most of the rogue toolkit, but compared to outlaw which doesn't have to really sacrifice talents to go aoe/ST its hard to play assa in m+. i'd like to see some good high end rogues play assa in m+ i'd really love to see how it performs tho
robust pine
is nature damage from trinkets buffed by shiv?
dense cedar
No iirc
weary marten
is haste still best stat for assa ?
iron orchid
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
honest silo
So with mutilate being better to cast than ambush from stealth do we just ignore the second part of sepsis?
spice spire
Yes