#assassination

1 messages · Page 3889 of 1

balmy condor
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the dpet from ambush is higher

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like it's double

rapid lance
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is there any factor of animation time? lol

balmy condor
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animation time wouldn't change anything

rapid lance
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k

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just throwing out ideas

balmy condor
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unless it's like a 2 second animation and you're missing a cast because of it

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but its an instant cast

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so you would just override the animation anyway

rapid lance
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in talents is it master assassin or subt?

balmy condor
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ma for raw single target

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but subt is very closely behind

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the moment you have cleave, you would take subt

rapid lance
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gotcha

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have you mained sin this whole time?

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or expac I guess as you call it

balmy condor
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nah

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tonight was the first night I brought sin into anything other than torg

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I've played sub all expansion

umbral rapids
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ew

rapid lance
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trying to decide which spec to play, it's hard lol

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basically a fresh 60

fallow otter
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What level of content do you do and where is it focused? Like mainly casual m plus for example

rapid lance
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yeah, m+ casual is the current goal plus PvP

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I have a decent idea how to play sub and outlaw, haven't touched sin before

fallow otter
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Outlaw for m plus and sub for pvp

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If it's casual you can use both for both sets of content

frigid kestrel
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Played Sin tonight in raid.... lowest DPS in raid, 97 Parse

fallow otter
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So you can pick your favourite

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And focus that first

frigid kestrel
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There is some good news in there somewhere i guess.... right?

rapid lance
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hmm, think sub felt more fun to me

balmy condor
fallow otter
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If you want to do pvp and m+ sub I suggest crafting master assassin legend

balmy condor
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but I beat my sub damage

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on some fights

mortal tartan
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im even with my groups mark hunter and afflic lock rn

frigid kestrel
sly hound
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do you have a r4 leggo for sin alrdy @balmy condor ?

fallow otter
mortal tartan
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yeah ik

balmy condor
south umbra
sly hound
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haha

frigid kestrel
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Shit felt... idk like its missing something. I didnt enjoy it at all felt clunky. I have been playing nothing but sin for 15 years (maybe its because ive been playing sub and forgot how sin felt) and sin feels wrong to me right now

mortal tartan
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feels good to me

raw tusk
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I have a hard time with aoe

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Single target isn't bad

fallow otter
balmy condor
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felt good to me too

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blindside was nice

mortal tartan
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its just a different playstyle

balmy condor
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energy was fine too tbh

raw tusk
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Yeah and pooling is kinda new to me

mortal tartan
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its not all about burst windows like sub i think people just forgot about the spec

fallow otter
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But it's still really basic, there is no way around that

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Sadly

frigid kestrel
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ye ive been changed by what is the ass end of BFA and Sub it seems

balmy condor
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pooling really doesn't matter

raw tusk
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Are you supposed to pool before every other envebom to make sure you get a second in the window?

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Or just for shiv

south umbra
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i dont pool ever really

raw tusk
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Do you just shiv on cd?

balmy condor
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on cd

south umbra
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yeah

balmy condor
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pooling was a thing like, 10 years ago

raw tusk
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Bout the last time I mained assassin lol

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Played a bit in bfa but have basically been outlaw since it was combat

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So no need to pool, shiv on cd. Anything else that I should know? I've looked at the guides but they seem off from what I see here

south umbra
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dot uptimes, envenom timer

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EP uptime if running that

balmy condor
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there's been a few shake ups with ambush vs mut

south umbra
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vanish on cd

plush oasis
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Vanish with vendetta.

balmy condor
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but we're still a little Hmmmm on the ambush stuff

raw tusk
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Mutilate is slightly better right?

south umbra
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i ambush whenever pos personally

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after sepsis and in stealth window

raw tusk
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And do you use vendetta after you've got dots and snd going?

south umbra
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yep

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sometimes a bit earlier if energy feels sluggish on opener

balmy condor
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but concerning as to why

raw tusk
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Cool. I think not pooling gonna make it smoother since I felt like I'd try to pool and end up delaying stuff to much refreshing dots

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Thought it was mainly the extra cp no?

south umbra
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the only waiting you'd be doing is if you're going to envenom and the timer is still ticking

raw tusk
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The previous envenom timer?

south umbra
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yup

raw tusk
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You don't want to envenom in that?

south umbra
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nah

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just affects poison application chance

raw tusk
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Okay cool
Thanks for the help btw guys I know questions get repeatedly asked in these disc but appreciate the help

balmy condor
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yeah np

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you get used to it

south umbra
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whispyr is always happy to help :^)

balmy condor
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I'm just happy the channel's comfy

plush oasis
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[this spec channel is nicer than the other ones. shhhhh]

raw tusk
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I'll be sure to message you about every single thing whispyr lol

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It is tho lol

rapid lance
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is kyrian viable for sin?

raw tusk
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That's what I am and ivr had some good envenom slams

eternal totem
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wait question regarding the whole mut > ambush thing again... so when sepsis expires... we basically ignore it and keep muting?

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the whole buff goes ignored?

south umbra
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i mean i ambush but idk what the gigabrains have decided

rapid lance
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lol, whispyr sim'd and mut was doing better than ambush

eternal totem
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yeh exactly hahah

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so if i only ambush when blindside procs

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during sepsis i just.... ignore it? hahaha

raw tusk
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He had it set to ambush after sep

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No NVR mind

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Just the free one from blindside

dense cedar
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im gonna start pouring gravel into the channel

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so it becomes less comfy

rapid lance
eternal totem
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can anyone tell me opener for MA then without ambush?

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should i get a garrote in there during MA buff?

stoic needle
dense cedar
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Sin with outlaw gear transfers pretty well

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Except weapons of course

raw tusk
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Yeah I'm outlaw main and been playin sin and it's not a bad switch

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Could use more vers but it is what it is

eternal totem
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icy veins recommends ambush, snd, mut, garrote, rupture.... but if we're not ambushing do i just replace ambush with mut

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or should i change order of garrote

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to get it in MA buff window

plush oasis
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Maybe mut > garrote > snd or rupture?

raw tusk
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Does garrotes bleed do more if you crit on application

dense cedar
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No

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its best not to waste MA on things that aren't mut if u can help it

eternal totem
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ah i see

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thank you

raw tusk
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So double mut first

dense cedar
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not garetee

eternal totem
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mute, snd, mut?

dense cedar
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ye

eternal totem
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noise

dense cedar
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im not exactly sure if no crit mut is worth double muting on

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i'd assume so

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but i'd check with someone with a brain first

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@balmy condor

balmy condor
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in key

dense cedar
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sry

eternal totem
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yeh good questions

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also sepsis feels so... odd now that you just waste the stealth buff

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but hey... if it's better to mut

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then ill mut lol

robust pine
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pepe_thinking should I take 207 denathrius trinket or keep my 200 phial of putrefaction

plush oasis
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Sim it.

main forge
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sometimes the difference is how you like to play and how they feel to you.

topaz saffron
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Another Week without a weapon in the vault

main forge
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I ran two on proc trinkets because I preferred that for awhile.

raw tusk
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Is memory of past sins a bad trinket? I've got a 213 and a 203 flayed toxin and I've heard people say memory is bad but it still sims better. Is it just the ilvl coming into play?

fallow otter
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It's not bad

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Sim it

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For your answer

safe barn
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HOLD UP

fallow otter
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The main stat def plays a role

safe barn
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i can't gouge in the back anymore?

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wrong chat i guess

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but still

fallow otter
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Since when could you

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Lol

main forge
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I think gouge always worked like that

safe barn
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i swear i remember using gouge in the back in legion

sinful island
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what weapon enchants are optimal and why?

primal zinc
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!bis

prisma monolithBOT
main forge
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sinful/celestial, but sim them

robust pine
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207 dreadfire vessel will give me
F O U R DPS

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BiS

plush oasis
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aw yiss

robust pine
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but i think i will take 220 ring with 120 haste and 84 crit

raw tusk
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I simmed it and it's better but wasn't sure if it was one of the trinks then simmed weird

robust pine
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is there some easy way to sim items from the vault?

raw tusk
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Top gear

plush oasis
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If you didn't know, if you copy simc with your vault open you can sim the best reward from it all in one go.

main forge
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while vault is open /simc

raw tusk
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Open your vault and simc

eternal totem
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thats blown my mind hahah

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didnt know you could do that

robust pine
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Oh, really, thanks

raw tusk
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Deff helps lol

fallow otter
plush oasis
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That's a strangely teal name you got there.

fallow otter
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Yup

raw tusk
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Yeah I don't have to much verse right now. Still sims better so I guess that solves it

robust pine
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teal is almost green and green is color of poison

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so it almost fits

hallow summit
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Do you guys think assassination going to be a great dps in the raid?

fallow otter
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No

robust pine
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But if i sim with GV items, will it realise to not sim with several items from the vault equipped?

plush oasis
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Yep

fallow otter
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Not that anyone wants my opinion but I'd be shocked if sin got anymore aura buffs because it can be played now but it ain't setting any dps meters on fire

raw tusk
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I think if anything it'll get specific ability changes

eternal totem
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yeh i agree stunkei

stoic needle
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I hope so

plain spruce
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what lego do you guys use for sin pvp?

iron orchid
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For pvp, I see a lot of Master Assassin getting recommended here

past bramble
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MA yeah

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Works for the 3 specs as well

iron orchid
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You could maybe also ask in #pvp for more info

plain spruce
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so you would prob take Subterfuge with MA lego?

iron orchid
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Nightstalker

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I think meta is getting One huge envenom out of stealth

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to ensure almost oneshotting someone

plain spruce
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makes sense plus dont your dots tick harder when sitting in stealth too

past bramble
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Yeah

plain spruce
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50% dmg and 100% crit

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vanish evn mfd evn

past bramble
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Right, you get 80% damage on the Subterfuge but I don't really see the talent being that useful rather than in 3s

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And most of your damage comes from Envenoms as Dei mentioned

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Plus MA is great for Sub as well as Outlaw, m+ as well, very useful and flexible legendary

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But most of the people here didn't recommend crafting a high level one, unless you are extremely into PvP

plain spruce
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yeah im sitting on a 190 one, so ill prob just upgrade that

past bramble
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Yup, I wouldn't go past 210 though

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But if you're a hardcore Pvper, that's most likely your go to max upgrade

tardy steppe
balmy condor
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@dense cedar what was the thing

dense cedar
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no crit mut for first gcd of MA talent opener

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u mut again right?

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u don't 2cp snd?

balmy condor
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yes

dense cedar
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do u consume blindside procs inside of ma?

balmy condor
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yes

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well

dense cedar
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okay

balmy condor
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kinda

dense cedar
balmy condor
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you would consume blindside procs if you can't get a mut off obviously

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but you wouldn't replace a finisher for it or anything

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blindside procs in ma are fine though

plain spruce
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so if you dont have energy for mut you blindside right

balmy condor
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well you would blindside if the alternative is mut

dense cedar
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im guessing that's waht whispyr means

balmy condor
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otherwise no

dense cedar
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wait

balmy condor
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I know that seems really 3head

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but it's a distinction in my head

dense cedar
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don't ur two points contradict?

rotund oak
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hey hey ma dudes,gonna craft zoldycks legs rank 4 since im about 5.2k soul ash,was wondering what stats should i go with,haste/vers?

balmy condor
dense cedar
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"you would consume blindside procs if you can't get a mut off obviously"

balmy condor
rotund oak
dense cedar
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"blindside procs in ma are fine though" "well you would blindside if the alternative is mut"

balmy condor
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yes

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well

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okay

dense cedar
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I think i have brain damage

balmy condor
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no

dense cedar
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cos i don't get it

balmy condor
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I just can't explain

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because there's dueling sides here

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sorta

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so you remember the APL line from earlier about ambush from stealth being 0.4%

dense cedar
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MA + 0 energy = Blindside
MA + 50 energy = Mut?

balmy condor
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that line is simply "ambush if you have blindside"

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otherwise you don't

dense cedar
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Okay so always Blindside proc

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As a builder

rotund oak
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which means blindside is higher on prio list

dense cedar
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just never naked ambush

balmy condor
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koji then simmed, and mentioned he found a gain with "ambush if you have blindside, or if you are not in MA"

rotund oak
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precious info thx

dense cedar
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Is that correct?

balmy condor
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uh

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yes

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with what we know right now

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you always consume blindside over a mutilate

rotund oak
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how about the opener

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do we ambush or muti form stealth

balmy condor
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if it's not blindside, you do not ambush

rotund oak
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or we go the regular bleed one

mortal tartan
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so if im not talented into blindside then i never press ambush

balmy condor
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not sure

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if you give me like

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3 hours of simming

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I will look into it

mortal tartan
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that seems kinda weird for a spec

balmy condor
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but that's what me and koji were trying to figure out kinda

dense cedar
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with ma u shouldn't garrote in the opener

mortal tartan
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having a baseline spell that you never use unless you have a talent for it

dense cedar
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cos it doesn't do anything

rotund oak
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why ma ;o

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but anyway ye

balmy condor
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well the thing is

dense cedar
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sims better

rotund oak
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soryr ive got zoldycks on ym mind

dense cedar
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no

balmy condor
#

ambush is double the dpet compared to mut

dense cedar
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the talent

balmy condor
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so the question is "why is mut simming higher"

rotund oak
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wait how is ma simming better

fallow otter
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Coz it sounds meaner

mortal tartan
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do you think it might be worth if you have lower crit?

fallow otter
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Mutilate

balmy condor
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I haven't found a big correlation between crit and the mut/ambush thing

fallow otter
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Baddd assss

dense cedar
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i have 20% crit so

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not exactly low

fallow otter
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14% low actually

balmy condor
#

basically think of mutilate

dense cedar
#

Stunkei

balmy condor
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as two attacks for the sake of argument

dense cedar
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u trying to get WWhispyr to attack u

balmy condor
#

you have a 1 cp + crit cp, and 1 cp + crit cp

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ambush is a 2cp + crit cp

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either way

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shits fucking confusing

fallow otter
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Mut has get area

dense cedar
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i think the sim just values matinence timers over the dmg ouput of ambush

fallow otter
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Grey

balmy condor
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well its not really what it values

dense cedar
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bad phrasing

balmy condor
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but I get what you mean

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hold on, I do more sims

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be back in a second

rotund oak
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Hmm @dense cedar u said ma sims better,sims say otherwise

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its kinda same,or ma kinda less

balmy condor
#

ma the talent does sim better

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ma the legendary does not

rotund oak
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i mean for the leggo..

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lul

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nvm missconception

dense cedar
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i said talent

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lmao

balmy condor
#

we need some new acronym for ma the talent

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someone get on that

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:P

rotund oak
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LMA

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for LeggoMA

dense cedar
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LMAO

stoic needle
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massass

rotund oak
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TMA for TalentMA

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cmon im throwing ideas here

dense cedar
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Mantle for the talent

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just call it mantle

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cos that's how my brain thinks about it

primal zinc
#

!bis

prisma monolithBOT
rotund oak
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lul if u type bis on the outlaw channel u get scolded

dense cedar
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More like

#

Whispyr's Piss list

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Gottem

balmy condor
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yeah, the outlaw guys don't believe in bis lists

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for valid reasons mind you

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I totally get where they're coming from

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and to some extent I agree

rotund oak
#

whispyr did some math work on that spreadsheet

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gj ma dude

mortal tartan
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all my bis gear sims lower

dense cedar
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ye

balmy condor
#

that reminds me I need to go back and changelog

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kek

dense cedar
#

bis gear will sim lower

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that's how it works

fallow otter
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Bis gear is much more relevent in certain slots like trinkets and weapons and items with special things going on like mage bracers from mechagon

dense cedar
#

I wish Sin simmed better

fallow otter
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And Azerite to some extent

balmy condor
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I got the hacks

dense cedar
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setting the encounter to 25 seconds doesn't count

balmy condor
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nah

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5 min patchwerk

dense cedar
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or the boss hp to 1%

balmy condor
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well I wouldn't do that

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I will not change the sim settings

fallow otter
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Talent="subtlety"

dense cedar
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i mean my sub probably sims worse than my outlaw

mortal tartan
#

i sin only sims like 125 behind my outlaw now

dense cedar
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i have about 500 dps low with similar weapons

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700 with current weapons

strange python
balmy condor
dense cedar
#

still worse dps than legion Sin

balmy condor
#

one perfectly normal

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no cheat

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patchwerk 5 min sim

strange python
#

i am going sin 😄 XD

dense cedar
#

i do wish there were fights i could also give a shit switching to sin for

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but im not big fuck raider this tier

brisk flicker
#

Is it officially good to go Assassination now? Please tell me yes so I can stop playing Outlaw

dense cedar
#

so doesn't matter i guess

mortal tartan
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it feels so much better in raids

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you dont get punished as much when you have to drop dps to do some mechanic

balmy condor
#

I wonder how high I can crank it before raidbots gives up

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I'm guessing until int overflow

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we keep going

dense cedar
#

now that's good dmg

mortal tartan
#

sin finally viable?

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200m dps

strange python
#

if @balmy condor keeps going its gonna be :d

balmy condor
#

aight boys

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take your bets now

strange python
#

1 bil

balmy condor
#

does seriallos use 64 bit

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or 32 bit like a pleb

fallow otter
#

Easy

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Lol

balmy condor
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well

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that's higher than 32 bit

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so I guess 64 bit it is

dense cedar
#

Sin feels good

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i wish it did dmg

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tho like

brisk flicker
#

So was the 8% buff not significant enough?

dense cedar
#

1% chance of changes now

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Not to bother switching

fallow otter
#

Does it feel good coz you can fall asleep and still do sin dmg

dense cedar
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for fights

balmy condor
#

sounds good to me

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giga buff

strange python
fallow otter
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Not much goin on, I like it but after Gcd lock St CT expedient sin is gibbon boring now

fallow otter
balmy condor
#

o

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it broke

mortal tartan
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damn bro

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sin is trash

balmy condor
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I pushed it too hard

dense cedar
#

hyper bleed Sin was less fun than AP envenomtown Sin

brisk flicker
#

I'm 213 Outlaw with only 200 weps and 235 leggo. I also have a 207 dagger just sitting in my bags though and Soul Ash for rank 3 leggo of my choosing

I could stay Outlaw, or I can make a hard switch to Assassination since it still is my preferred playstyle. Just wasn't sure if it's viable now.

balmy condor
#

viable yes, better than outlaw, not by a fair bit

stoic needle
#

Do it

balmy condor
#

its still like 5-8% behind outlaw and sub

stoic needle
fallow otter
dense cedar
#

better but behind

balmy condor
#

@vestal wren

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shhhh

#

secrets

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I'm uh

dense cedar
#

bleeds aren't very fun

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fucked up poison is more fun

balmy condor
#

testing the bits

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on seriallos's ram

stoic needle
stoic needle
balmy condor
#

aight whatever back to blindside gjank

stoic needle
#

I don't get the whole poisons vs bleeds thing

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Why not both

dense cedar
#

Exsang KB sounds like dogshit to play

stoic needle
#

I never played with either so I can't really comment

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Vansolo if u don't play sin you have to change your avatar

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I don't make the rules I just enforce em

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Killua zoldyck.... Not playing sin... FeelsWeird

misty hemlock
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hows sin now with the 8% buff

balmy condor
#

its playable

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hungering was a better fight timing to be clear

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but like

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is not THAT bad

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my sub sim is about 450 under my sin sim

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and that's pretty much what I get

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(don't look at the parses, those are meaningless for sin)

stoic needle
#

That's what I was expecting tbh

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I find it a lot easier to get close to my sim dps as sin vs sub or ol

dense cedar
#

i currently don't see a point with current weapons to play sin over law

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but maybe with double 226

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the dream will live

balmy condor
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yeh

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but I don't play law

stoic needle
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For fun

dense cedar
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looking like im not trying isn't very fun

stoic needle
#

Oh come on

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Sin isn't that bad

dense cedar
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700dps loss st

surreal phoenix
#

@balmy condor I would like a dm with the rotation for both specs xD seems like my fingers don't work the correct way :p

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I'm thinking about changing from sub to assa .

stoic needle
#

How is it 700

balmy condor
#

probably bad daggers

stoic needle
#

Are your replacement weapons just that bad

balmy condor
dense cedar
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203 mh

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even 226 is still like 500

stoic needle
#

I wish I had a weapon over 200 SucksMan

surreal phoenix
balmy condor
prisma monolithBOT
surreal phoenix
#

Thanks for that Toxic

balmy condor
#

the opener parts

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are actually the ones that we're struggling with atm

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cause this exists

dense cedar
#

Only Whispyr struggling

balmy condor
#

and idk what the fuck I'm supposed to think anymore

dense cedar
#

My TC brain has already figured it out

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With SUper Math

surreal phoenix
#

I sim around 4,6 with assa and 5.1 with sub

brisk flicker
#

We still on the execute leggo or dashing? Like if you were to craft first

surreal phoenix
#

But on dummy I get 3k on assa and 3.7 - 4.2 with sub including shadow dance and symbols.

balmy condor
brisk flicker
#

Thank the lawd

dense cedar
#

execute leggo has a dumb name

balmy condor
#

sounds pretty reasonable though

surreal phoenix
#

But sublety....I swear I can't do shit to top my dps. I struggle a lot

balmy condor
#

I'm like 3.3 in sin, 4 in sub

#

on a dummy

surreal phoenix
#

I can't even end fights at 4+dps.

brisk flicker
#

There really should exist dummies that sit at 1hp

balmy condor
#

at least last time I simmed it

surreal phoenix
#

4k*

dense cedar
#

Ronny

#

i wanna see those dummy warrior numbers

brisk flicker
#

O.o

balmy condor
#

@dense cedar did you know that the buff you get from sepsis

#

is literally called "sepsis_buff" in sims

dense cedar
#

no

#

im krian so i don't really think about sepsis

balmy condor
#

oh

#

that sounds pretty dumb

dense cedar
#

:(

zinc sentinel
#

How is assassination after the buffs? Is it still dogshit?

tardy steppe
#

its 8% less dogshit i guess

balmy condor
#

is aight

tardy steppe
#

i dont know if i should craft zoldycks for sin or celerity for outla

#

w

barren forge
#

depends on what you want to do. more raid, more m+ or both

tardy steppe
#

well i mean i got MA 210 and i think thats alright for m+

ancient quail
#

How is assa all-round like raid and m+ I really wanna switch to assa I hate sub playstyle and not loving the rng of outlaw

misty hemlock
#

lol my sin sims are 1k lower than my sub sims

tardy steppe
#

so why is my count the odds working on sin?

misty hemlock
#

no leggo tho maybe that's the reason

tardy steppe
ancient quail
#

I have enough soul ash for a rank 3

balmy condor
ancient quail
#

Not gonna spend 100k + for a rank 4 on outlaw anyways

misty hemlock
#

I should make a Dashing Scoundrel if i already have an MA, right?

tardy steppe
#

says its an outlaw conduit only

outer lodge
#

Korayn showing a slight dps upgrade over Niya - wonder if its worth swapping over, that first power seems pretty situational

balmy condor
#

yeh it's bugged afaik

iron orchid
#

Got a 226 Phial this reset

#

made me jump 220 simDPS

cedar pilot
#

Sitting on my r1 celerity with 6k+ Soulash, waiting for sth to happen haha,
guess its assa time

shrewd copper
#

Legs or Foots for Zoldyck ?

iron orchid
balmy condor
#

legs

shrewd copper
#

thanks

iron orchid
#

Hey @balmy condor do you have a link to your logs from your HM raid ?

balmy condor
#

sure

iron orchid
#

Ty !

balmy condor
#

my pleasure

iron orchid
#

Damn, those daggers you've got x)

balmy condor
#

yeh got the 226 from vault today

#

pretty nice

iron orchid
#

Nice one

real bay
#

phial is insane bro got one too xd

balmy condor
#

I wish I had phial

#

but I'm happy with memory/chain

naive trellis
#

What difference will this buff make

storm perch
#

sry for dumb question, but why we aren't using ambush in the opener with subt talent?

balmy condor
#

more cp/poison application

#

that's really bout it

storm perch
#

like way more better?

#

ah

balmy condor
#

like marginally better

#

let me find the sim

storm perch
#

but if we proc ambush (blindside) - we wait for a good opportunity to use it

balmy condor
#

makes more of a difference with MA

storm perch
#

?

balmy condor
#

if you get a blindside, you replace the next mutilate you would cast

subtle relic
#

Guys how’s assassi (US people whove been playing it all day)

storm perch
#

so the opener - garrote - mut till 4+cp - snd - mut till 4+ cp - rupture - vendetta - covenant(echo) - shiv - mut - env?

balmy condor
balmy condor
subtle relic
#

Felt a difference or meh?

balmy condor
#

I didn't play sin before the buff

#

but it seems close enough to sub

#

its still worse

#

but if you're not good at sub, or don't like it, or whatever

#

its definitely okay

subtle relic
#

I came on here to check because Pshero just said its great for PvP

balmy condor
#

yeah could be

subtle relic
#

Idk if he played it post buff

balmy condor
#

#pvp would know better probably

storm perch
#

when fok becomes better then mutilate?

subtle relic
#

Hes playing sub atm

balmy condor
storm perch
#

on how many targets?

#

kk

balmy condor
#

let me double check just to be sure

storm perch
#

do we wait until empowered garrote from subt will go down or overwrite it with not empowered with pandemic?

balmy condor
#

yeah its 3 target

#

you can overwrite empowered with empowered in pandemic

#

but you should not overwrite empowered with not empowered

misty hemlock
#

where do we put Dashing Scoundrel?

balmy condor
#

in the trash

storm perch
balmy condor
#

nah you craft it on your feet

misty hemlock
#

😮

balmy condor
#

really would suggest zoldyck though

misty hemlock
#

but it says scoundrel in the pins lol

balmy condor
#

for single target, yes

misty hemlock
#

hmm

balmy condor
#

pure single target

misty hemlock
#

i mean

balmy condor
#

and nothing else

#

also the current reason why you would play sin is for execute phases

#

so if you go dashing

#

you're literally just a worse sub rogue

vivid hearth
#

is sin somewhat viable if you dont wanna play roll the outlaw

misty hemlock
#

hmm true

#

guess i'll get zoldy then

vivid hearth
#

for m+ mostly

misty hemlock
#

where do we put that then? :p

tardy steppe
#

how far is sin behind outlaw for st

balmy condor
vivid hearth
#

im not getting any good dps in m+ as sub, prolly cause i fuck up rotation

balmy condor
tardy steppe
#

thats not too bad

balmy condor
misty hemlock
#

ty

tardy steppe
#

im at 4% haste now (came from sub), how much better does it feel at 15% ish?

#

feels a bit rough rn

balmy condor
#

I'm at uhhhh

#

16%?

#

feels okay

#

you still have downtime obviously, it's sin

#

but idk, doesn't seem that bad

pearl canyon
#

nope

#

at 4%

balmy condor
#

really picks up when you start cleaving

pearl canyon
#

subs try to avoid haste at all afaik

#

so this dude is literally at 4% xd

balmy condor
#

?

#

yeah, that's what he said

#

but sub also doesn't avoid haste

tardy steppe
#

i had 2% but i got a lil bit of haste

balmy condor
#

idk what you're responding to tbh

tardy steppe
#

to nothing rn

balmy condor
#

but yeh

#

haste is nice

#

I don't think it'll change your mind all that much

#

like if its way too slow at 5%, it won't be much faster at 15%

iron orchid
#

I have around 18-19% depending on night or day (night elf buff), and Haste still weighs 1.45 vs crit 1.30 in pure ST, but once you get to two targets, or Cleave, it evens out pretty nicely, and feels great to play.

balmy condor
#

but if it's a little groggy, that might make a difference

vivid hearth
#

Is it a big diff with gear for sin vs sub?

iron orchid
#

Still feels kinda slow in pure ST, but that's acceptable compared to early BfA

balmy condor
#

you need a lot more haste for sin

#

but otherwise no

#

you take your sub gear, and then try and get more haste

#

and it's pretty much fine

vivid hearth
#

ah ok

iron orchid
#

Note that if you play Venthyr you may feel less of a difference because you get some haste from flag

balmy condor
#

well that's a multiplier

vivid hearth
#

pity you cant change specc on raidbots without pulling string from game

balmy condor
#

so it should actually feel more impactful with more haste

iron orchid
#

Oh

balmy condor
iron orchid
#

didn't know it was

vivid hearth
#

yeah, finally some upside to sticking with ventyr 🙂

#

how?

balmy condor
#

just gotta edit the line that says spec

iron orchid
#

Thought it was additionnal haste

vivid hearth
#

aha ok

balmy condor
royal cloak
iron orchid
#

Sometimes it just adds 20% haste directly to your Haste %

#

i got the tooltip wrong

balmy condor
# 
spec="assassination"
talents="3312321"

so you got that for example, all you need to do, is edit it to something like this:

spec="subtlety"
talents="1322331"
vivid hearth
#

ah still got the finality equipped so wont say anyhing good anyway

balmy condor
#

and it'll just switch over

vivid hearth
#

ah thanks @balmy condor

#

where can i find the item id for MA? cause gessing i can change gear the same way

balmy condor
#

yeah that's a bit more advanced

rigid tartan
#

are sims updated with the buff on raidbots?

balmy condor
#

the simc wiki has all that stuff

balmy condor
rigid tartan
#

hm so i still sim 600 dps below my sub 😦

balmy condor
#

seems reasonable

#

probably bad legendary and low haste

vivid hearth
#

im guessing i will be to, however i think ill nail the rotation for sin better than sub

balmy condor
#

my sim currently is ~450 lower than sub

ornate raptor
#

What conduits would be great for Sin? Lethal poisons, maim, mangle or well placed steel

balmy condor
#

and with equal legendary/offpiece ilvl

#

it's like 280

rigid tartan
balmy condor
vivid hearth
#

Do you notice a big difference ingame whispyr?

ornate raptor
#

Alrighth thank you

vivid hearth
#

or mostly on isms

balmy condor
#

It was noticeably worse on good sub fights

#

like I could tell the difference

#

on shriek for example

#

but then when you got cleave and stuff it definitely felt fine

rigid tartan
#

im really wondering how it performs on sire in comparison

balmy condor
#

I did better on inerva/hungering this week for example

#

I parsed an 86 in heroic for sub on hungering, and I did better tonight as sin

#

I'm in no ways a good player btw

#

so take that with a grain of salt

storm perch
#

is it ok using CT on cleave (2 target fight)?

balmy condor
#

I think you would CT on 3?

#

its been a while

#

hold on

storm perch
#

just tried to figure out, what ravenholdt guide says

balmy condor
#

yeah looks like APL is on 2

balmy condor
#

also might be value on SLG

inland umbra
#

is assa viable now, even more subtle for its ease of play?

#

I'm curious

#

👀

balmy condor
#

if you play both well, sub will still win on the sub fights

#

it'll be even or better on the cleave/outlaw fights

inland umbra
#

I don't know, I have a lot of trouble getting the most out of rogue subtlety in raid fights

#

:S
I was thinking of reroll, but I'm not sure

balmy condor
#

sin is definitely more idk, "casual"? friendly

#

not sure how you would put it

#

sin with equal gear is about 5-8% behind depending on person from what I've seen

inland umbra
#

I am not exactly casual, but I do not know, it gives me the feeling that either you are god with subtlety or you are nobody

balmy condor
#

yeh

#

if you can't execute sub properly, sin is fine

inland umbra
#

I don't know if I reroll outlaw or still subtlety, but the truth, I miss sin xd

ornate lake
#

5-8%? On my ST sims i have about 10% difference. Same ilvl leggo :/

balmy condor
#

link it

ornate lake
#

and for dungeon slice the diffference is slightly bigger even :/

balmy condor
#

hm

#

might be a kyrian thing for that

north basin
#

Lol how do u sim for 5600 with so low itemlevel

storm perch
#

what if he change everything to haste and take subt talent?

balmy condor
#

subt is worse single target

#

that would make the difference larger

ornate lake
#

Only worth taking in cleave

ornate lake
hollow escarp
#

4966 assa compared to 5244 outlaw NotLikeThis

north basin
#

Yep 223 weapon plays huge role

rigid tartan
balmy condor
hollow escarp
north basin
#

230 dps difference on p3? Its negligible

#

Sad

rigid tartan
#

but its without downtimes

#

id imagine in reality assa is stronger when you count in downtimes?

balmy condor
#

3.3% is negligible apparently

#

today I learned

rigid tartan
#

3.3% is a lot

balmy condor
#

3.3% is like 200 daggers vs 233 daggers iirc

rigid tartan
#

its a dealbreaker for a kill because of the dps check

north basin
#

Iam still in bfa mindset maybe

#

200 dps when we do 7k))

balmy condor
#

that's why you use %

#

like this sim earlier

#

its 1.7mil dps

#

but its only 0.6%

north basin
#

I feel like one lucky trinket proc during cd and thats will be more impactfull than these 200 dps(

balmy condor
#

DEFINITELY not

#

but your logic is actually fried

#

we're taking sims here

north basin
#

Need to see how it will play out in real enviroment

balmy condor
#

and saying on average its 200 ahead

#

you can't just negate that by saying "oh but a trinket proc"

north basin
#

Agree

#

Lets see real mythic fights, iam waiting for more logs

balmy condor
#

sure

#

gonna have to wait like 6 weeks to get accurate data though

#

but you do you

north basin
#

Need to separate feelcraft vs real data

#

I agree

balmy condor
#

I mean, it's not really feelcraft, you can see the numbers for yourself, sin is better in cleave, and it is better in execute

#

its actually better in 5 target as well

north basin
#

Maybe it will be better in ST too. Coz regular joe can manage sin rotation with almost no mistakes compared to precise timings and execution of sub spec

balmy condor
#

usually those timing issues handle themselves out during progression

#

but yeah

#

that argument could be made

main mirage
#

I mean then its not better

balmy condor
#

yeah, sin is still the worst single target spec

#

it has a niche for cleave, and for execute damage

#

but it's in no way going to smash sub or something

hollow escarp
balmy condor
north basin
#

In 4 weeks we will see best sin rogues vs best sub rogues in worldwide logs, time will tell whats up in realworld mythics vs simcraft)

balmy condor
#

well in 4 weeks people will get 235 zoldycks if they're committing to sin

#

but logs are still the previous 2 weeks

#

so you're waiting 4 weeks for those sin rogues to gear

#

and then you're waiting 2 weeks for the logs to stabilize

north basin
iron orchid
#

Did they do sth to torghast powers when equipped with daggers ?

#

I feel like scaling changed

#

For powers such as elchavers lens

balmy condor
#

nop

iron orchid
#

tooltip and effective damage are approximately 3x higher than last week

#

i didn't change weapon or gained vers

#

quite weird

balmy condor
#

there's no mining on stealth fixes or something

tardy steppe
#

on what fights in CN does sin pull ahead of sub? and is there a fight were they pull ahead of outlaw or no way?

balmy condor
#

it pulls ahead on altimor, sun king probably, wouldn't be surprised to see it pull ahead on inerva and slg, and there's a good chance you'll see it played on sire

#

we don't really know by how much

#

it's probably not going to pull ahead on slude, also not gonna pull ahead on hungering or xymox, and shriek/council probably not either

tardy steppe
#

would it be good on sire just because it can dot the adds or is there another reason?

balmy condor
#

mostly the execute

tardy steppe
#

execute phase maybe?

#

aah yeah

balmy condor
#

since p3 is the only phase that really matters

tardy steppe
#

if you were to start a fight in the execute phase as sin rogue how much more dps would you do? is there a way to sim that

balmy condor
tardy steppe
#

thanks

north basin
#

I want this sim with all other classes included )))) doable?

daring pecan
#

bruh

north basin
#

To see who is the real king on p3

balmy condor
#

the real king is dk

north basin
#

I guess so but, like 9k))

#

?

#

Compared to ours 7k

daring pecan
#

soul reaper kekw

balmy condor
#

if you find me accurate gear profiles of similar power for each spec you want compared, I would happily run that sim for you

#

but I ain't gonna go out and make those myself

#

cause I literally cannot be fucked

north basin
#

÷))))

#

Iam not familiar with other classes sim, i barely can do my char sim)

balmy condor
#

guess we'll never know

tardy steppe
#

haha

north basin
#

But iam sure somewhere exist crazy log/sim nerd who is all about numbers and not game itself who already did it))

#

Mb in diferent class discord

balmy condor
#

(I mean, that crazy nerd is me)

#

but something like that simply doesn't exist

#

because half the class discords don't do bis lists

north basin
#

Iam interested by these number myself but lack of knowledge))

balmy condor
#

hell, we don't even do bis lists for 1 out of 3 specs

#

if you want to sim it for yourself, the process is quite easy, but very tedious

north basin
#

I guess so

balmy condor
#

you would get 1 sim from every spec (probably from the t26 results posted online)

#

and then you would import all the gear from the raid/dungeon drops, at 226 ilvl

#

you'd then find their bis for each spec

north basin
#

But sometimes i dig into the logs for hours, but with sims its kinda difficult

balmy condor
#

and then slam them together

#

and you can use the custom lines I used in my sim

#

ez pz

#

you got yourself an execute sim

north basin
#

Custom line u mean sub 30%hp of boss?

balmy condor
#

yep

north basin
#

Kk i will try when i get home

balmy condor
#

good luck kekw

north basin
#

😫

balmy condor
#

took me like 4 hours of simming to get sin's list and document everything

#

just do that like 20 times, and while you're at it, help out the warlock guys with their APL

#

I heard they're struggling

north basin
#

Hahah

balmy condor
#

and make sure the shadow priest guys figure out their legendary situation

#

and also say hi to the shamans, their stuff is a little sketch too

north basin
#

Wow easy please))

balmy condor
#

but once you got everything figured out

#

and you've fixed the simulations for every spec in the game

#

and created bis lists

#

then it's easy

north basin
#

So theoretically bis list exist somewhere but still not in the realworld

balmy condor
#

well in order to accurately check who's the king of anything

#

you need to give them all an even playing field right

north basin
#

Agree

balmy condor
#

so you would need comparable gear sets

#

for each spec

#

but each spec wants different stats

#

so you gotta optimize the gear of X item level, for that spec

north basin
#

Well we just pick best 5min solo target gear with maximum level availible at this stage of game

balmy condor
#

the best solo target gear for who?

north basin
#

Or there is a more of it

#

For everyspec

balmy condor
#

well yeah

#

how you gonna get that

#

that's a different list for each spec

#

and at least half of the specs don't have such a list

#

so you'd have to make it by hand

north basin
#

Many variation but possible to brutforce?

#

Or too much data

#

For single pc to compute

hollow escarp
balmy condor
#

sure, you brute force it like you would any other bis list

#

that's time you have to spend doing it

balmy condor
hollow escarp
north basin
#

U will shape the logs now!

balmy condor
#

well you can't use log gear

#

cause that's too different

#

so

#

yeah

#

it's a lot of fucking work

#

just for 1 sim

#

that really no one but you cares about

north basin
#

=(

#

I love data sometimes more than game itself

ornate dawn
#

What kinda sim numbers are people getting post-buff?

balmy condor
#

bout 7% higher than they were last week

#

its still 5-8% lower with equal-ish gear

#

compared to sub

ornate dawn
#

Did a quick generals and Sire normal this morning certainly higher up the meters, feelsgoodman

#

@balmy condor I dont suppose you know what the proc chance is on Hateful chain?

balmy condor
#

10 rppm

leaden plinth
#

how is sin compared to outlaw on ST now?

balmy condor
#

prolly bout 5% behind if optimized equally

leaden plinth
#

obviously the nuances are different with adds and sin having rly good execute

#

but could an argument ever be made for sin pulling ahead of the other specs given the recent buffs?

balmy condor
#

yeh

#

it'll pull ahead of sub on some of sub's bad fights most likely

ornate dawn
#

Huntsman is a good example where you can pull ahead easily

balmy condor
#

and it has execute

#

which is basically all of sire

leaden plinth
#

yeah huntsman sire and occasionally council i guess

keen dome
#

Sludge maybe, you spend a lot of time not hitting the boss as sub

balmy condor
#

probably not sludge

ornate dawn
#

Yeah although its fairly minor on sludge

leaden plinth
#

nah not sludge

balmy condor
#

sub burst on sludge is way higher

leaden plinth
#

u would rather have the burst on sludge

balmy condor
#

I would be very very very surprised if sin goes higher

ornate dawn
#

not a huge downtime, as you can run in and out pretty fast from the slams

leaden plinth
#

sin requires uptime more than sub

balmy condor
#

that's simply not true

daring pecan
#

mmm, the spec with more dots needs more uptime

#

flawless. logic.

balmy condor
leaden plinth
#

simple

#

play zoldyck

#

lul

fossil slate
#

@balmy condor Is there some shenanigans with opening from stealth with Sepsis

balmy condor
#

no

fossil slate
ornate dawn
#

Should you not shiv then sepsis, since it buffs it

fossil slate
#

Well you're not going to open with Shiv

ornate dawn
#

No of course not 🙂

fossil slate
#

My question is that sims are showing opening with Sepsis

balmy condor
#

okay

#

and whats wrong with that

fossil slate
#

Well I don't know if there is haha

#

That's why I was curious haha

balmy condor
#

nothing wrong with that

fossil slate
#

I know I saw you saying something about ambush out of stealth so wasn't sure if there was some rotational thing going on

#

But thank you 🙂

vivid hearth
#

im getting confused regarding soulbinds for venthyr

#

pic in pin says nadja but herodamage says draven

fossil slate
#

You can sim them Nelson

#

If you go into top gear 🙂

vivid hearth
#

ah great thansk

fossil slate
#

No worries

vivid hearth
#

cause haste seems to be good, and thrill seeker gives that, so guess ill sim and see

fossil slate
#

The pins also take into account full renown

#

so that's often why it can seem somewhat misleading

vivid hearth
#

thats it, im gonna try some sin again 🙂 Sub is fun but really missed Sin tbh

umbral pine
#

I guess sin is a viable option now compared to outlaw with the execute leg for m+ right ? Could it even be better on some weeks ?

fallow notch
#

Isnt Zoldyck BiS in every scenario? Also wondering how Assa would compare tho!

potent raft
#

i seriously doubt Sin is better than outlaw in m+

raven egret
#

nah it never will be

fallow notch
#

Feel like its hurting my overall performance if i try to swap to Sin again. Plenty of time still tho. But gold and soul ash wise its not really preferable. Have build 3 leggos now, would be 4 if i decide to try Sin

tired condor
#

Hi new rogue here. Sorry if this is a very bland and generic question. But although I’ve learnt to play sub , I am liking sin a lot more. I know it’s not going to smash sub on single target burst but is it atleast viable compared to other dps specs now ?
Don’t wanna focus on gearing it only to find it’s the worst spec

vivid hearth
#

no, im aware of this, but i dont wanna touch outlaw

potent raft
#

@tired condor it's the worst of the 3 spec dmg wise

#

still is

dense cedar
#

so i switched to Sin and my computer shit the bed and gave me 7fps during fights the rest of the night

fallow notch
#

Thats a sign

balmy condor
#

a sign that you don't need fps to play sin

tired condor
dense cedar
#

lucky it was normal i guess

balmy condor
#

there's some niche to be had with sin

#

but generally it won't beat outlaw

#

and it struggles to beat sub

dense cedar
#

i think playing sub gives a reason to play sin

#

on certain fights

balmy condor
#

also valid

dense cedar
#

but playing outlaw on all fights seems fine

potent raft
gleaming fable
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So do you guys legit think Assassin is a viable alternative to Outlaw on cleave fights? Sub player who fucking hates outlaw here.

balmy condor
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depends on the definition I guess

raven egret
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it's viable if you like playing it

gleaming fable
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I definitely prefer it to outlaw, and sub just isn't good on certain fights even though I enjoy it the most

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Sims making me real tempted to craft zoldyck, I'm just not sure how close it is to Outlaw

leaden plinth
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if u dont like outlaw play sin

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if u main sub u dont have to farm different weapons every time u get an upgrade

potent raft
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unpopular opinion probably, but right now i really like outlaw 😄 sub moved from most to least favourite since the beginning of SL

frail fossil
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i think this is not unpopular at all

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and also why is this on sin channel

dry rover
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it pisses me off that because the 13% buff makes the buff "viable", theyll likely not buff it for the rest of the expansion

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like its still the worst spec lol

ornate dawn
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@gleaming fable At 210 ilvl with a 235 zoldyck im simming just over 5kdps

sand dirge
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simming 5562 as sub vs 5216 as assassination. looks good