Yes
#assassination
stoic needle
pliant apex
lol
balmy condor
rigid wyvern
yes
balmy condor
Fuck
stoic needle
I would
pliant apex
whisp you troll you , dont even tell me you dont try to come across a pretty girl
stoic needle
Just because you're a guy doesn't mean you can't be pretty as fuck 
pliant apex
true that
daring pecan
that you're a beautiful egirl
rigid wyvern
Whats the threshold on popping vendetta vs refreshing snd/rupture
pliant apex
how did you guys know its a he tho lol
balmy condor
I mean
It’s very easy to find pictures and videos of me
Considering I’m a streamer
pliant apex
ohh lol haha
balmy condor
And there’s a pin of me in #off-topic from a drunk stream
Where you can literally just see me
rigid wyvern
obviously your a reverse vtuber, you're an anime girl using software to appear as a normal guy
stoic needle
They're evolving
daring pecan
every time
balmy condor
obviously your a reverse vtuber, you're an anime girl using software to appear a...
Shhh secrets
pliant apex
ohhh , actually not a bad looking guy hmm
daring pecan
Whispyr, you're in the target zone
balmy condor
If you’re savvy enough, you can find an actual picture of me all dressed up for prom
pliant apex
LOL
pliant apex
so you just cov ability on cd from then on?
stoic needle
Yep. I tried simming lining up flag and thrill seeker and it's a dps loss
Use it on CD
rigid wyvern
On a more serious note, should i be topping off snd / rupture prior to vendetta or should i just be vendetta on cd
woeful wigeon
shud i lvl up my dashing 225-235 boots next week or zoldyx legs 210-225 ?
balmy condor
On a more serious note, should i be topping off snd / rupture prior to vendetta ...
You’ll need to refresh once in vendetta anyway
Usually
Not a big loss
pliant apex
Yep. I tried simming lining up flag and thrill seeker and it's a dps loss
it also means the first rupture be at 3 points ?
stoic needle
So much of our damage is from Ip/melee which still happens while you refresh
rigid wyvern
fair
pliant apex
yea
stoic needle
it also means the first rupture be at 3 points ?
Yeah, you don't need to start with a 5cp rup even though it's nice
You can refresh it in pandemic
stoic needle
Yeah, try to refresh SnD and rup before shiv but don't sweat it if you can't
Don't hold shiv just to refresh
pliant apex
hmm
stoic needle
Also just ignore the fact that shiv gives cp, don't be afraid to use it with max
pliant apex
basically juse shiv on cd
stoic needle
Yeah
pliant apex
ahhh ic ic , thanks man !
stoic needle
Think about it this way, every time you delay shiv even by a few seconds adds up, eventually you'll miss a whole shiv cast by waiting for various things
That's a decent loss
mortal tartan
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
neat smelt
yo guys,thinking of trying out sin pvp with tommorow's buffs...any of you have a point of referance to check out...talents/pvp talents,lego,playstyle and so on?
thorn fjord
Hows sin looking with the 8% buff?
rugged dragon
Hmm, I simmed my dps of assassin with 210 legendary. I am an 215 outlaw right now, with 5.5k DPS
and the assassin sim had 5k DPS
500 dps loss, and thats without the 8%
thats actually not bad at all.
rigid wyvern
sim probably has the 8%
thorn fjord
yeah
stoic needle
Sin rising 
balmy condor
The buff has been in raidbots since sunday
thorn fjord
i'm simming 5551 at 211 in Sub
rugged dragon
Oh damn, my bad then.
thorn fjord
If sin is that close might be time to try it
mortal tartan
its only around 300 behind my outlaw
grim wolf
my outlaw sim is 5704 vs my Assa sim at 5397
thorn fjord
any idea what it looked like prior to the buff?
fleet whale
just today i went from 200 ilvl to 204
rugged dragon
4992 my sin, and 5552 outlaw
fleet whale
and like 400 dps less before buff
balmy condor
any idea what it looked like prior to the buff?
Take the number you have now, remove 6%
fleet whale
the higher your ilvl, the more the gain will be
balmy condor
It’s like 350-400 dps depending on person
mossy willow
Yea raidbots havd already updated their shit so if u simmer ur sin rogue it is what is says
Simmed *
pliant apex
do i want to hold a shiv for second vendetta? or dont matter?
balmy condor
Bis is also updated for single target
balmy condor
do i want to hold a shiv for second vendetta? or dont matter?
Just on cooldown
Will line up naturally
pliant apex
ah
woeful wigeon
@balmy condor as dealy poisen gets buffed by * mastery will get benifit right ?
deadly
woeful wigeon
deadly poisen is buffed by 8% also ?
stoic needle
You get 6 shivs between vendettas
balmy condor
deadly poisen is buffed by 8% also ?
Yes, all abilities
stoic needle
The 6th comes off cd right as vendetta does
eternal totem
whats higher priority for Multi target... CT or rupture? Im hearing conflicting reports. some say keep 4 ruptures up before CT, others say crimson tempest more important and should be used first
balmy condor
whats higher priority for Multi target... CT or rupture? Im hearing conflicting ...
CT
woeful wigeon
i got 22% crit 16% haste +2 haste trinks on use 27% mastery 11% versa so deadly will go quite big then is zoldys better then or dashing ?
balmy condor
But that kinda depends on your target count as well
stoic needle
Our cp gen in aoe is so bad they'll all be dead before you CT if you put up 4 ruptures first
balmy condor
i got 22% crit 16% haste +2 haste trinks on use 27% mastery 11% versa ...
That’s not really how that works, you should still build zoldyck, regardless
thorn fjord
im excited to mess with sin with the buffs
eternal totem
Thank you Whispyr 🙂
thorn fjord
I MISSED IT SO MUCH
balmy condor
I’m good, but I’m not good enough to do poison damage calculations in my head using just stats
The only thing that changes the swing from dashing to zoldyck
median aurora
wait so its been in since sunday, the sim looks the same difference that it did just after the 5% for me 
thorn fjord
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
woeful wigeon
shud i lvl up my dashing 225-235 boots next week or zoldyx legs 210-225 ? as you saying better go for zoldyx legs
thorn fjord
my haste is only at about 11 right now =/
stoic needle
wait so its been in since sunday, the sim looks the same difference that it did ...
The sim buffs have been live since Sunday
balmy condor
You should never build dashing over zoldyck
balmy condor
Depends on what a huge gap is I guess
median aurora
~400
balmy condor
And if you have like 0 haste cause you’re crit/Vers stacking
400 is fairly reasonable
median aurora
might be the haste thing
median aurora
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oxwetmgtM3mgMAV2DhQsJQ is about as high as I can get with the sin in current gear, and swapping 235>235
subbing out 100ish dps for just using a 190
balmy condor
Yeh
fleet whale
sin is viable now though imo
balmy condor
We’re not going to outsim anything
That’s not what this buff does
If all you care about is big throbbing simdps
median aurora
i was looking at the damage profile in the raid
balmy condor
You’re not gonna see it
fleet whale
sin might be nice for sire
median aurora
and execute dmg
balmy condor
We’re better than sub on p3 sire
I ran a sim that sorta emulates that
Slg also feels pretty reasonable for sin
median aurora
comparing to outlaw honestly
green elk
Sin is better than Sub on Huntsman as well I'm assuming
balmy condor
Well sub is better p3 sire than outlaw
fleet whale
if sin ever outsims sub, you basically kill sub in pve
balmy condor
Sin is better than Sub on Huntsman as well I'm assuming
Yes, but huntsman is a whatever
pliant apex
im curious as to why the first envenom is only at 1 cp? from shiv
storm nymph
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
balmy condor
im curious as to why the first envenom is only at 1 cp? from shiv
That shouldn’t happen
Unless I’m forgetting some weird APL line
Envenom is never cast under 4
woeful wigeon
@balmy condor https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/pb4TMo4YPmSobb9TKSRPEG can you linkme yours to compaire
balmy condor
I haven’t even made zoldyck
stoic needle
Looks pretty good to me
balmy condor
Yeh seems fine
stoic needle
But you should use vigor instead of DS
woeful wigeon
you advice every one to go zoldyxck while you have not got it yet ?
wish one you us ethen
balmy condor
Yes
daring pecan
Whispyr doesn't even play Sin 
balmy condor
I literally haven’t touched sin all expansion
fleet whale
i thought you play it in torghast
stoic needle
you advice every one to go zoldyxck while you have not got it yet ?
Numbers don't lie
loud niche
:KEKW:
balmy condor
Well yeah but it’s not content that matters
mortal pike
anyone do some ass rogueing yet?
dense cedar
Got the real question for u @balmy condor
dense cedar
Are you gonna bother touching Sin now?
balmy condor
Varo why are you arguing with me
fleet whale
i don't think whisp has sin leggos
craggy crater
and money 😦 240k gold for my leather rank 3 shoulders
balmy condor
You can do torg with your eyes closed and your hands tied behind your back
stoic needle
and money 😦 240k gold for my leather rank 3 shoulders
Dude just farm the leather
balmy condor
It doesn’t matter
fleet whale
like you're not gonna be seeing many sin rogues even post buff
pliant apex
is this opener correect; mut-venthyr-slice-mut-garr-rupture-vendetta-shiv-vanish-envenom?
deft vault
Crit haste or hast vers for zzoldyck?
balmy condor
is this opener correect; mut-venthyr-slice-mut-garr-rupture-vendetta-shiv-vanish...
Yeah that’s fine
grim canopy
You can do torg with your eyes closed and your hands tied behind your back
Kinky
balmy condor
Crit haste or hast vers for zzoldyck?
Both fine
fleet whale
barely any rogues bothered to spend ash for a high ilvl sin leggo
oblique kiln
sim-craft tells me to use one legendary while pawn (in game) tells me to use a different one, I thought the two were connected?
fleet whale
in 9.1 you'll maybe see more
pliant apex
Yeah that’s fine
so isnt that envenom going to be at 1 cp?
stoic needle
barely any rogues bothered to spend ash for a high ilvl sin leggo
Only the real ones
grim canopy
more buffs in 9.1?
balmy condor
Are you gonna bother touching Sin now?
I’m gonna touch it all over 
fleet whale
nah, it's just that by 9.1 more people will have decent sin leggos
pliant apex
ditto
grim canopy
true
fleet whale
and maybe they'll be more buffs who knows
pliant apex
nah, it's just that by 9.1 more people will have decent sin leggos
theyre addin new legos?
fleet whale
idk about new leggos
pliant apex
you sure?
stoic needle
No way to know for sure
pliant apex
kk
fleet whale
but i guarantee you most rogues right now did not craft a high ilvl zoldyck
pliant apex
the guy's guide i follow said vanish and envenom
stoic needle
Unless you have an uncle who works for blizzard
pliant apex
vanish,shiv-envenom
balmy condor
That sounds like a pvp thing
pliant apex
ahh then his guide is wrong, its a pve rotation from a week ago
grim canopy
sounds like when legion had the shoulders, vanish envenom
pliant apex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtuj_vytNOU if you have time, at 10:10
fleet whale
yeah that was mainly a legion thing although i did the same thing in bfa too
using MA talent
grim canopy
lol
pliant apex
hmm
viscid locust
recommendation on second stat for legs leggo?
dense cedar
i read that dude's name as Tomcuck
amber berry
did the buff today make assassination much better?
fleet whale
it made it better yes,
balmy condor
i read that dude's name as Tomcuck
Honestly might as well be
fleet whale
it's viable for raid now
balmy condor
recommendation on second stat for legs leggo?
Haste + crit/Vers
fleet whale
you won't be a liabilty playing sin rogue in nathria
amber berry
haha, jokes on you, i'm a liability for everyone in my raid regardless of what i play!
loud niche
not a liability =/= viable
fleet whale
i mean it's also viable too
loud niche
we will see when i craft this leggo
balmy condor
Are we back to arguing about sin viability again
loud niche
lol
oblique kiln
oh pawn and simc are just taking in stats and not the actual lego power huh
balmy condor
We need a wa for the lap counter on wether or not sin is viable
balmy condor
oh pawn and simc are just taking in stats and not the actual lego power huh
Uninstall pawn and never mention it again please and thanks
stoic needle
oh pawn and simc are just taking in stats and not the actual lego power huh
Simc does, pawn doesn't
mortal pike
ill never understand people who u se pawn
fleet whale
what is worse pawn or Ask MR robot?
mortal pike
in this day and age
balmy condor
Honestly, pawn is probably worse than amr
distant cypress
b-but muh Pawn is so good, i just update the string every time i get an upgrade ( simmed by top gear raidbots) because i like that juicy information about 2-5% higher item value!
daring pecan
b-but muh Pawn is so good, i just update the string every time i get an upgrade ...
this is LITERALLY the unholy DK of my guild
and I'm just...
fleet whale
well, at the very least pawn didn't have devs going into class discords promoting their own product
while trying to trash raidbots at the same time
balmy condor
You see, the main complaint about pawn is that you need to top gear, and then stat weight sim, and that’s just two sims for no reason.
I am however better than all of you, and I enable stat scaling DURING a top gear sim, by creating the permutations by hand and doing it all in an advanced sim
distant cypress
ofc i was joking there
pliant apex
if shiv cannot line up with second vanish, is that a big dps loss ?
balmy condor
No
pliant apex
ty ty
fleet whale
lol worrying about shiv
balmy condor
Literally just slam the button on cooldown
pliant apex
... why embarass
fleet whale
i'm just messing with ya
pliant apex
gotcha dude
fleet whale
no hard feelings
distant cypress
whispyr literally 400 IQ simmer
fleet whale
but i think it was determined that if you don't cast shiv at all during a boss fight
like the dps loss isn't as big as you think
pliant apex
i literally thought whisp looks exactly like the anime pic smh
lilac prism
What haste percentage should I be aiming for?
pliant apex
but i think it was determined that if you don't cast shiv at all during a boss f...
ah ic
thanks for letting me know, i can stress less about it
distant cypress
i have people in my guild that just install pawn and call it a day
and judge upgrades by what it tells them
fleet whale
i mean i still use skada, that prolly makes me the biggest heretic here
balmy condor
and judge upgrades by what it tells them
Sounds like a great guild
distant cypress
Yea man, wanna join ?
distant cypress
you could tell them about stat scalling while top gearing
i think their brains would just shut down tho
distant cypress
and other addons
swift sky
yea which i am not using
balmy condor
I use pawn as a way to laugh when I’m feeling down
Sometimes I feel like shit, but I remember it could be worse, I could be pawn
distant cypress
damn Whispyr, there is nothing else going on there for you that your only way to feel better is to laugh at pawn ?
obsidian willow
do you think we need the mastery buff from Niya or should I just go DW to get the double potency conduit for WPS and LP?
pliant apex
I use pawn as a way to laugh when I’m feeling down
which guild and where, illcome join 😄
balmy condor
which guild and where, illcome join 😄
Secrets
pliant apex
oh kk i understand
balmy condor
do you think we need the mastery buff from Niya or should I just go DW to get th...
Niya is stronger usually, but you can sim
distant cypress
Niya is bae
fleet whale
Ysera is hot
distant cypress
why would you choose a fairy when you can have a hoofie gf
fleet whale
i wish Ysera was a soulbind
pliant apex
jaina is hottest
distant cypress
maybe she will in 9.1 or 9.2
obsidian willow
so, if I had to choose between LP and WPS, which one should I go with?
pliant apex
she said she owes me everything after i rescued her ass from tor, wonder what she meant
distant cypress
E V E R Y T H I N G
balmy condor
so, if I had to choose between LP and WPS, which one should I go with?
Either are fine, lethal is slightly better aoe
pliant apex
like she aint gun say no to sex now is she
balmy condor
Wps usually a little ahead single target
fleet whale
you don't know what she went through in torghast though
pliant apex
lol
cloud siren
trains?
pliant apex
man i wouldnt mind a girl irl saying she owed me everything tbh LOL
fleet whale
when we get renown 25 we can get 2 potency with niya
distant cypress
wait ysera was in torghast? i dont remember
pliant apex
ahh right, girls never say that nvm
obsidian willow
Either are fine, lethal is slightly better aoe
I see. so for fights that have cleave, better to take LP?
distant cypress
jaina was, yea
balmy condor
I see. so for fights that have cleave, better to take LP?
You really won’t notice a difference either way
obsidian willow
i see
distant cypress
i wonder if she would hang out with her horde rescuer after torghast
obsidian willow
i just need one more 220 dagger and imma finally live my assassination fantasy again
just got a 223 dagger from the vault this week and im so happy
distant cypress
dem hoes
pliant apex
LOL
distant cypress
i might be crossing some TOS stuff here, i better get back to promoting pawn
pliant apex
man sin isnt just better spec, sin channel is better too
oh right right , ill shut up too
obsidian willow
which missives did you guys go with for zoldycks? haste and?
rigid wyvern
haste vers for me
heavy skiff
!BIS
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
pliant apex
hehe im simming at dummy on sub, 2950, sin 2850, all i needed to know
im a simple man
serene basin
which missives did you guys go with for zoldycks? haste and?
i got haste and crit here, tho i have a LOT of verst
pliant apex
100 dps diff on dummy works !
bye bye sub, dont let the door hit you on the way out, actually i hope it does
rigid wyvern
lol
pliant apex
heheh
rigid wyvern
welcome to the sin camp please enjoy your stay
spice sable
is assa comparable to at least sub in M+ now or not really lol
pliant apex
oh i will i will muahahhahaah
grim canopy
damn i been gearing up my WW monk, shits insane
pliant apex
m+ idk but who cares, communitys toxic as f anyway
grim canopy
its kinda like sin but no dots, except if u count mark of crane stacking
heavy skiff
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
pliant apex
jokes apart, can sin work for m+? or thats like a big no?
balmy condor
Yeah sin m+ is okay
rigid wyvern
i do it
serene basin
but if you can outlaw it, i'd be better
rigid wyvern
that requires me to own swords
mental wing
Did all keys on 15 timed with sub, dunno how sin performs. I think sin doesnt have the utility
mental wing
CS with Shd is just a nice Tool dunno. If assa gets Suffi back 🤔
balmy condor
Sin cleaves harder and has more aoe
obsidian willow
so Shriekwing, being a ST boss, will there be a big diff I choose to do the fight with subterfuge instead of MA in my talents? Just wondering cuz sometimes I feel too lazy to go back and change talents and come back lol
balmy condor
so Shriekwing, being a ST boss, will there be a big diff I choose to do the figh...
No
You can play the whole raid with subt if you’d like
obsidian willow
yay thank the lord
balmy condor
And it would actually probably be preferred
strange python
So how is sin lookin vs sub?
mental wing
More aoe no. More cleave yes
balmy condor
ok2 cuz it said in the pins to get MA for ST
Subt is like 0.2-0.4% behind, very close
obsidian willow
ok2 noted! thank you!
balmy condor
More aoe no. More cleave yes
? More aoe yes
Why does everything think sub aoe is good
mental wing
Sub has more aoe in my opinion. But no 3 target cleave
obsidian willow
Why does everything think sub aoe is good
cuz people thought that black powder was gamebreaking lmao
pine aurora
Whats the best slot for dashing scoundrel?
balmy condor
I can have an opinion that a gallon of milk is 15 dollars
But that doesn’t make it true
mental wing
Want to see aoe of an assa in higher+ tho
balmy condor
Whats the best slot for dashing scoundrel?
Feet
obsidian willow
do you guys know when we'll get Korayn for NF?
rigid wyvern
today
mental wing
I think for someone how plays on 99 logs and high keys I can have an opinion. But well what ever
daring pecan
today is such a nuclear day, goddamn
mental wing
Might be. But I’ll have to wait to see prove I guess
obsidian willow
ive never seen the assassination channel so active lmao
mental wing
Might watch the incoming logs this week 🙂
pliant apex
ive never seen the assassination channel so active lmao
get hyped brother, ITS BACKKKKKK
karmic nymph
should you pool energy for envenom?
obsidian willow
get hyped brother, ITS BACKKKKKK
i know! i feel like assassination might really do good now but i dont wanna jinx it
pliant apex
YEAH brother , who cares just play and stop looking at parses now
know its not shit no more, not even close
just compare your parse to sin rogues, not the no on skada
mental wing
We will see, I kinda would like to see some talent changes
pliant apex
if you want to compare at all that is, that stuff toxic imo
bye bye for now boys n girls , now i watch netflix
slender urchin
Is raidbots updated with the 8%?
mental wing
Yes
slender urchin
Thanks 🙂
obsidian willow
is it a MUST as well to get blindside on ST boss fights?
frigid kestrel
I want to go back, but god this energy shit is bad and rotation still feels ... off
balmy condor
EP is about 1% behind
obsidian willow
EP is about 1% behind
a 1% dps loss is big, right?
balmy condor
its 1%
dreamy elk
Just a playstyle thing (not necessarily related to numbers), but I'm really not enjoying the way Sin plays on ST. At least from a DPS "pressing buttons" feel.
dreamy elk
It's not the slower pace for me. The energy situation + just the constant maintenance aspect (SnD/Garrote/Rupture) doesn't feel great. Having two maintenance finishers + garrote to manage with short cooldown shiv just feels a bit ick.
karmic nymph
is Master Poisoner stronger with Zoldyck's that the other options?
fleet whale
yeah if you're not a fan of debuff/buff management
you likely aren't going to like sin
tidal gorge
I'm going to make like a sin rogue and take my time swapping to the spec (not enough ash to get a decent leggo yet 
)
rigid wyvern
master poisoner exists for wound poision in pvp and leeching poison in torghast
fleet whale
it's the utility talent on that row
but it used to be really good in legion
cause it buffed envenom damag
balmy condor
it was competitive and very good in aoe back in beta
and then they nuked conduits from orbit
stoic needle
I want to go back, but god this energy shit is bad and rotation still feels ... ...
How much haste do you have
stoic needle
Yup I have 18% and my sims tell me no more haste and it feels fine
mortal tartan
feels good to me and i only have 14%
i have more haste gear but it doesnt sim as high
stoic needle
I'm not gonna lie, every single time I feel energy starved it's because I let dots or snd fall off
strange python
Anyone summed themselves yet let me know how Assa is looking?
agile geode
How much behind is compared to sub in st ?
strange python
Bare in mind your gear will be optimised for sub
mortal tartan
its only like 200 - 300 behind my outlaw
strange python
If you get the right gear then the difference will be less
fleet whale
it depends on the person
strange python
And tbh makes sense to go OL and Sin as the stats are haste verse for both specs
And haste is pretty useless for sub
dreamy elk
With my sub optimized gear, it's about 500DPS behind for me on ST (assuming equivalent 225 lego + appropriate equivalent gear swaps for those slots).
stoic needle
One thing to remember is that unless you're a god you will rarely hit your sim dps in a single target fight as sub whereas it's mch more feasible as sin because it's easier and more dot focused
fleet whale
yeah, sims are just a tool, not a bible
they don't reflect real life results, like look at how MM sims
fleet whale
poor havoc demon hunter's though
mortal tartan
isnt that spec made to be played on a controller
pale dagger
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
mental wing
isnt that spec made to be played on a controller
It’s for wow immortal
strange python
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
cerulean kernel
lilac prism
deadly poison is the way to go correct?
balmy condor
in all pve, yes
dense cedar
@balmy condor prove it
real marsh
any sims out for legendary options with the buff?
balmy condor
fuu's sheet and my bis list (the single target part) are both updated
real marsh
awesome thank you
obsidian willow
My assassination already simming better for ST than my OW
tame junco
would it be worth do not use a skill 1-2 second if garrote needs to be renewed and i would get a 6th CP then? or should i envenom at 5 and renew garrote with the next gcd?
real marsh
i'm trying so hard to get rid of mast but it's all i have haha
knotty heron
raiding as assassin tonight - its going well
good parses so far, damage feels smooth
eternal totem
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
eternal totem
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
lilac prism
if I have both weapon enchants, does it matter which is in MH vs OH?
daring pecan
no
wary pawn
frozen jasper
Just a quick question, why mut on opener and not ambush?
mortal tartan
mut gives more cp
obsidian willow
i can confirm that assassination > outlaw
How?
lament aurora
just memeing
obsidian willow
What do you guys think about haste-mastery for zoldycks legs?
frozen jasper
Oh well makes sense, ty ! Always thought ambush gives also 2 lol im dumb
mortal tartan
@frozen jasper ambush gives 2 cp but mut can give up to 4 especially with master assassin talent
low girder
it does but mut can give up to 4
lament aurora
ambush does also give 2 but mut gives 4 because of Seal Fate
frozen jasper
K thanks, nice to know
Another thing, do you guys double use garrote on ST with subt for longer empowered uptime ? Or does it make no difference?
balmy condor
don't double gar
frozen jasper
Energy waste? Or another reason?
balmy condor
just not worth
obsidian willow
Is haste-mastery ok for zoldycks? Or should i really haste-crit?
balmy condor
double garrote was a thing with SS
balmy condor
Is haste-mastery ok for zoldycks? Or should i really haste-crit?
mastery is our worst stat
obsidian willow
Ahhh i see
frozen jasper
Alright thanks, helped me very much!
rich dawn
lament aurora
it feels pretty good
been playing it in raid tn
doing similar dam to our marks/uh dks/etc
mortal tartan
the 3 spriests in my group will always be no.1
echo cargo
double garrote was a thing with SS
I thought it was to extend the duration of your empowered Gar, does that not work / not worth?
lament aurora
it still extends it but the empowered garrote isnt nearly as powerful
balmy condor
its not worth without shrouded suffocation
lament aurora
so its just not worth the energy
balmy condor
which doesn't exist
faint harness
its not worth without shrouded suffocation
And we still mourn the loss
split veldt
swift sky
good yes, better on certain fights that’s about it
anyone here believed since day 1 and has a rank 4 zoldy already
grim canopy
Any assassin streamers now
swift sky
i wonder if the 40% crit thing will apply to sin as well 
balmy condor
Any assassin streamers now
none
fair cobalt
Why is mastery the worst stat 😩 ?
grim canopy
oh lol
loud niche
zold or MA for rbg pvp?
full tendon
So can we play assassin now?
tame junco
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
wooden silo
is zoldy the play or dashing scoundrel?
obsidian willow
My sim told me to go Niya with WPS for patchwerk, should i follow?
Going with lethal poison says it’s a 0.4% dps loss
loud niche
well if you check pin, WPS is bis
and i'd imagine niya > korayn, but im not an expert on that so ill defer
fleet whale
WPS and LP are basically equal
WPS is slightly better in ST
and LP is slightly better in aoe
runic escarp
With vigor, do we cast envenom at 5CP always? or when is it viable to use it at 4
strange python
How's hotfixed sin looking relative to sub? It already seemed close in logs
balmy condor
you finish at max - 1
runic escarp
my brain had to think for a sec lol but got it.
hazy geyser
so how are the assa buffs looking?
versed mica
for me it still sims 400 dps less than outlaw
runic escarp
yeah same h ere.
versed mica
Hey Whispyr, because well-placed steel is st only, would it be better to run lethal poisons instead, seeing how it's only a small dps loss for st, and a dps boost for aoe?
runic escarp
using outlaw build with my 2 sub daggers, hovering 5.1kish on heroic rn, about to do sunking lmaoo
or gear*
14% haste tho
balmy condor
Hey Whispyr, because well-placed steel is st only, would it be better to run let...
really about the same
versed mica
well-placed steel is really about the same for aoe or?
I'm confused by the vague response lmao
strange python
only sims a few hundred lower than outlaw
Is it pulling into sub range yet? Sub has always simmed well
mortal tartan
i think my sub is like 600 above sin
lilac prism
is there a level of haste that below which I should stick with Sub?
split grail
Does vendeta affect trinkets?
balmy condor
no
split grail
So I should just use dreadfire on cd
balmy condor
yes
grim wolf
pog sire ring with leech
proven ferry
is Niya better than Koryan ? 😮
misty holly
anyone here believed since day 1 and has a rank 4 zoldy already
Heck yeah, I crafted it the moment it was available. Even pre buff assassination seemed good enough to complete +15s which is the only "endgame" content I'm trying to do.
versed mica
I keep hearing different things, with MA talent, do I open with ambush or mut?
misty holly
I keep hearing different things, with MA talent, do I open with ambush or mut?
is this for pvp? I thought subterfuge was by far the best in pve
versed mica
MA sims better for me
misty holly
Do you mutilate 3 times, or mutilate, finisher, mutilate?
versed mica
Why do guides all say to use ambush? What makes mut better?
balmy condor
all guides shouldn't say to use ambush
plush oasis
Related - if mut is better than ambush, does that mean we should basically ignore the sepsis proc?
misty holly
i think it has to do with combo point generation
so without the +50% crit chance things are different?
misty holly
mut can crit twice, which happens a lot at +50%
misty holly
but for sepsis you don't get that, so Im not sure
stoic needle
Ambush still isn't worth casting with sepsis
Only with blindside
You ignore the sepsis proc except for a free cheap shot in m+
plush oasis
oof
versed mica
don't know why sepsis ambush isn't worth it...?
blindside and sepsis ambush are both free
fiery shell
Both mutilate attacks proc their hits where ambush is one packet of damage iirc?
misty holly
That's the kind of thing that makes me think Blizzard didn't test these skills enough. Like how can a designer sit down to work on the rogue class and create a system where the stealth opener is less effective than the combo builder...
I wonder what happened along the way
plush oasis
Well it's been that way for a while.
Garrote was the old stealth opener but it hasn't been a stealth ability in some time.
misty holly
Sure but ambush was brought back this expansion
plush oasis
Yeah that's def fucky
fiery shell
Ambush has pvp application
misty holly
so someone did work on rogues just for shadowlands and decided that balancing ambush lower than mutilate was the right call.
stoic needle
I'm pretty sure the sepsis ambush is not free
plush oasis
Nah I don't think so.
stoic needle
There's nothing in the ability description or the wowhead page about the stealth ability being free
runic escarp
Assass seems fun and fine now, maybe with more haste it will be better and a legendary.
Was keeping up with the sub/outlaws
fiery shell
are you confusing blindside with sepsisis?
stoic needle
That's the kind of thing that makes me think Blizzard didn't test these skills e...
None of the wow dev team actually plays rogue and it shows
grim wolf
can rogues immune the sinseeker for mythic huntsman? not sure if u can just pop evasion and stay in the line just curious
grim wolf
that's what i thought just wanted to amek sure
sand otter
obsidian willow
Why couldnt blizz jud round up the increased damage to 15% all in all lol
swift sky
15% would probably kill the other specs
vapid patrol
Surprised we can't immune the dot, DKs can immune the sinseeker dot
vapid patrol
or is that mythic specifically it can't be immuned
plush oasis
Yeah it feels normal for sin imo
Just a little more annoying to open up vendetta windows with snd.
By the way, is there anything tied to snd besides attack speed in the current iteration?
dense cedar
it gives bonus energy regen
plush oasis
Is that a passive?
dense cedar
i believe it was added almost specifically for people on the forums whing abut how SnD doesn't do anything for sin
low girder
i don't think they've touched this version of venemous outside of the venom rush change/nerf in bfa
obsidian willow
Is it mandatory to get CT for M+ instead of PB?
limber lion
In BFA I ran Poison Bomb during tyrannical weeks and ST-heavy dungeons (King's Rest, Temple of Sethralis) on fortified, otherwise CT.
I imagine it'll be similar this time around.
pure heron
what dps conduits we using for pvp?
placid dawn
so, how much lower is your sin sim than outlaw now?
balmy condor
I'm about 560-600 down
but that's 235 vs 190 legendary with a 200 chest vs 213 legs as off pieces
and I'm not really statted
placid dawn
mine is about 500 below still, with same ilvl daggers i would be about 300 down, also im at 400 haste only, maybe it will get better
placid dawn
might go sin just for fun
so, for zoldyck, should i got feet or legs?
sim says feet but its probably just ilvl difference
plush oasis
In the long run you get more stats from the legs.
Unless you think you'll get 235 legs elsewhere.
placid dawn
allright, makes sense
obsidian willow
Do you think getting BS instead of EB for tyrannical week is a good idea?
spice spire
BS sims higher
obsidian willow
Ok2
lament aurora
EB beats BS for me
serene basin
Feels good and weird to play sin after so long as outlaw
Follow your rotation, life finds a way
dense cedar
at 4 animacharge u can't really avoid it as sin
3 or 2 i'd say avoid using on rupture
since it gains zero dmg
dense cedar
as in the main one u'd play?
green karma
Ye
dense cedar
No
green karma
Crap
Don’t enjoy outlaw that much tought I could swap for m’s
Can’t even try assa yet since I’m EU
dense cedar
i think sin can do more cleave dmg than sub in M+
but i don't think i'd say its better to run
SO even with same ilvl weapons
Sin is still significantly behind outlaw in st for me
tough trail
I lost 800 singletarget sub vs sin
full tendon
Fuark
balmy condor
I'm about 450 down from sub to sin
rapid lance
so assassination any good now? lol
balmy condor
shrinks to about 280 if I would have 235 zold and a 213 chest off piece
(which is what I have on sub
rapid lance
learning rogue and trying to decide on spec
fallow otter
@balmy condor do you know how far down the tree is unlocked for soul bind 3?
Kyrian pref
knotty bear
get all but last two rows
north basin
Zero sin rogues after us resets in top 100 rogue logs
balmy condor
so you get 1 potency, 1 finesse, 1 endurance in mikanikos
north basin
N i c e buff
fallow otter
Ok ta
balmy condor
Zero sin rogues after us resets in top 100 rogue logs
were you expecting sin to be topping logs?
north basin
Just maybe maybe i thought someone will enter top 100 shriek..
balmy condor
I mean
north basin
I even checked hc logs. Well saw 1 sin with 4800 dps
balmy condor
that's definitely not the fight to be checking
if anything you would expect to see sins pumping on like alitmor
north basin
Well maybe all top rogues who wanted to try sin were short of orange dust. Coz they wasted on sub outlaw and pvp legs.
north basin
Also do we have sims of new covenant ? 10% more damage above 75%?
balmy condor
that's not active
north basin
Its said he is availible at 22 renown
balmy condor
well yeah
he's available just not great
the reason everyone wants him is because of first strike
which isn't available yet
north basin
More like world pvp or pvp
I just thought sin will do better til 75% then 45% at average and last 30% again with buff
So on fast mythic kills we will shine more, with better gear or somthn
balmy condor
yeh hate to burst your bubble on that
probably not this tier
and maybe not next tier either if nothing special happens
balmy condor
It got 6% better
granite copper
still trash on the dmg pack
balmy condor
you realize its been like 12 hours
and the stats count the last 2 weeks
right
also most people probably don't have a 235 zold just hanging around
tough trail
you sound like a believer atleast, I think imma wait for some more insight before crafting any assas leggys
even tho im tempted
balmy condor
I mean
I'm not saying sin will be the new OP rogue spec swap now gogogogo
but its definitely not giga trash anymore
echo cargo
Also hard to judge in practice cause most people are swapping to 190 / 210 leggos
and aren't giga-hasted up
north basin
I only topped outlaw leg, also need sub for solo fights and MA for arenas, now this zoldyk too, dayyum sounds like 6-7 weeks to go.
But iam kinda eager to try it out anyway
north basin
Need to earn slot in raid u know..
eternal totem
but does >190 leggos make that much of a diff?
umbral rapids
thought you meant leg piece
eternal totem
my sim is like 1% more
umbral rapids
i was very confused
eternal totem
with higher leggos
north basin
Everything counts)
north basin
200-->207 weapon gives 17 dps for me. So everything counts
balmy condor
if you don't think 45 ilvl on something matters
then idk what to tell you
I lost 3.5 ilvl tonight going from sub to sin
overall ilvl
north basin
Lewl
balmy condor
that's quite a bit
eternal totem
never said it doesnt count
north basin
U wont see +1k dps ofc
stoic needle
Or you could pay 0
balmy condor
20 ilvl is well worth the gold
stoic needle
Farm the mats yourself
It literally takes 2 hours tops to farm the leather for a leggo of any level
Or do a heroic boe farm and get one boe
eternal totem
yep yep, this is true too
balmy condor
the whole "upgrading legendaries isn't worth" concept is super weird to me
stoic needle
I just don't understand why people complain about the costs of things in this expansion when gold and the mats are both literally trivial to get
balmy condor
like in every other circumstance, benthic, etc, people were foaming at the mouth for 5 ilvl
and now all of a sudden they have to farm some mats or something
and its a huge deal
that you need to upgrade
stoic needle
Spend as much time as you do in Torghast doing any of the gold farms and you have enough for nearly any legendary
eternal totem
i mean you cannot say that cause everyone value's there time differently
but i get what you're saying
but to not understand why is naive
xmog isn't my thing but i totally understand why people chase it
stoic needle
I get if people just don't know that it's that easy to farm it up
balmy condor
well you're in here for damage right
stoic needle
But if you're in here asking about how to optimize your character
balmy condor
if you weren't interested in doing damage
you wouldn't be in the discord
so I assume you would care about 20 ilvl
but not just you
eternal totem
hahah come on now
balmy condor
a ton of people
stoic needle
But you don't wanna put in 3 hours to farm up your legendary base. Does not compute
balmy condor
just are super against upgrade
stoic needle
Not you specifically but the general you
balmy condor
for no reason
eternal totem
imo, cause i dont value that upgrade for 60k yes
balmy condor
?
eternal totem
doesn't mean im unneccsarily against it at all
and that's a loaded statement and a half, assuming im in this discord to min max, come on lol
lilac prism
does the Sepsis proc provide the stealth enhanced Garrote?
lilac prism
like if I garrote after sepsis proc it will be th +80 from subt?
balmy condor
does the Sepsis proc provide the stealth enhanced Garrote?
only the silence, not anything else
lilac prism
damn
balmy condor
so that must be why im here
so then why are you here
lilac prism
or does but make garrote always do +80 percent?
eternal totem
community and general tips
lilac prism
subt*
eternal totem
but im not looking to min max to such a high degree
i also find this discord useful to keep track of general significant rogue changes/updates
balmy condor
I mean, that's fine
you're still looking for ways to improve though
and 20 ilvl on a legendary
is a pretty easy and sizable chunk
sly hound
Do we have a target haste threshold to shoot for? I'm sitting at 521 (16%)
balmy condor
or does but make garrote always do +80 percent?
not sure what the question is here
lilac prism
im trying to understand when the best time to use garrote + vanish + sepsis is
stoic needle
Sepsis doesn't give the 80% damage bonus from subterfuge
lilac prism
I was looking at your logs and you had several more garrote casts than me and it did more damage
could be just im not paying attention to when its avail
balmy condor
sepsis doesn't give anything
as long as you cast 1 garrote from stealth/vanish
you're chillin
lilac prism
so everytime vanish is up I should be looking to get a fresh garrote out?
eternal totem
ah
balmy condor
you don't want to garrote with MA obviously
stoic needle
Ideally you vanish at about 4 seconds left on garotte for the pandemic
eternal totem
k i was gonna ask, cause i saw conflicting advice earlier
stoic needle
It gets you a few extra seconds of the damage bonus
balmy condor
like in your opener?
if vanish is up, you fire it off for the garrote regardless of the garrote time
eternal totem
with MA, is Icyveins opener correct... ambush -> SnD... or should i ambush -> garrote -> SnD
balmy condor
was actually talking to seli about this
stoic needle
Yes, the opener, but if you refresh a regular garotte in pandemic from vanish the extra seconds get the damage bonus right?
balmy condor
we don't think ambush from stealth regardless of talent is worth
balmy condor
Yes, the opener, but if you refresh a regular garotte in pandemic from vanish th...
I mean, it's completely neutral
that's how pandemic works
stoic needle
You don't hold vanish for it but it's nice if it lines up
eternal totem
we don't think ambush from stealth regardless of talent is worth
wait didn't you just say you don't garrote with MA obviously? im confused now
is garrote always the way to go then?
balmy condor
if you have an 18 sec empowered garrote, and you refresh when it drops, for a new 18 sec empowered garrote, you have 36 seconds
dense cedar
Mut
balmy condor
if you have an 18 sec empowered garrote and you refresh with a new 18 sec, in a pandemic, you get 5 seconds extra on the new one
that's also 36 seconds
stoic needle
No what I mean is, if you have a 18 second normal garotte, and refresh it in pandemic with an empowered one
balmy condor
oh
stoic needle
Those extra 5 seconds are also empowered
stoic needle
Yeah
balmy condor
not holding vanish for that garrote to hit pandemic
lilac prism
always worth to replace it with a empowered one, even if not in pandemic?
balmy condor
yes
lilac prism
ok cool
balmy condor
wait didn't you just say you don't garrote with MA obviously? im confused now
how does what I said about garrote and what I said now with ambush conflict
with MA you would mut slice mut
with subt you would gar mut slice
eternal totem
whoah, that's news to me
balmy condor
koji was talking about it being worth to ambush from the sepsis proc
but I'm honestly not sure about that one either
eternal totem
good questioni
balmy condor
if we're not ambushing from subt, it doesn't make a lot of sense to ambush from sepsis imo
but I need to run more sims on that
eternal totem
so you could actually just remove ambush from your castbar if not for blindside
balmy condor
imo, yes
eternal totem
wow okay
thank you!
whats the reasoning behind mut > ambush btw?
out of curiosity
both same energy, and combo points
but ambush has more dmg
balmy condor
its a lot of factors together from what I understand
eternal totem
ah ok
balmy condor
like mut hits double hands, which is technically twice the chance for poison application
mut can give an extra cp
and with blindside, mut gives a chance for a free ambush
so that all has to be factored in
rapid lance
oh so you mut on initial out of stealth?
balmy condor
to be completely honest, I don't entirely understand why its better either
eternal totem
ohhh ok
balmy condor
but I'm guessing those reasons combine to make it worth
dense cedar
are we talking about MA talent from stealth?
balmy condor
ambush vs mut
eternal totem
^
balmy condor
oh so you mut on initial out of stealth?
correct
eternal totem
interesting
dense cedar
for cp
dense cedar
i am not sim
dense cedar
balmy condor
koji said he would look into it as well
but basically to pick up from what was happening in #tc-research
this is the sim
using my garbage ass geared night fae sin rogue
the baseline is obviously the named version
the fix is forcing ambush to only generate with blindside
balmy condor
0.4% is a pretty large gain all things considered
outlaw reroll logic changes are like 0.2%
balmy condor
and that's on top of a 0.3% gain I found early in the expac to force mutilates from stealth
dense cedar
its a big gain for literally zero work
rapid lance
so mut it is
rapid lance
didn't you answer that earlier?