weaving moonkin form into the rotation
#assassination
balmy condor
static glacier
you shift out of catform into moonkin for starsurge / sunfire
static glacier
legit sin has always been one of my favourite specs, sad to see it in this state
it's why when I mained resto druid I gravitated towards feral and not balance
tribal marlin
No really I do think that Assa is rising in the shadow rn
fleet anchor
I think it's gonna take another buff tbh
It's getting closer, but still gonna be enough off
To be noticable
static glacier
issue is it's damage profile isn't special by any means, if it doesn't do strong ST damage it brings very little to the table
fleet anchor
Yeah but it's not really 8%
static glacier
melee swings are like 15% of sim damage
little basalt
Too much white swing
loud niche
well yeah, 25% less overall dmg done in a ST fight than sub at similar gearing. and that's going off a flat 8% to overall dmg
fleet anchor
Once you subtract out AAs and procs and trinkets
static glacier
why is sin's sim dps so much better relative to it's actual performance?
faint harness
Why is subs
loud niche
subs isnt far as ive seen
tribal marlin
why is sin's sim dps so much better relative to it's actual performance?
Not a single end game geared rogue play assa.
loud niche
@tribal marlin peen
little basalt
Who?
fleet anchor
I would drop in another 5% buff in the next patch
faint harness
Claws out
fleet anchor
And it'll be good 😛
faint harness
Buff all rogue covenants
static glacier
218-220 sims in M CN has 4 sin logs
little basalt
Give us Shrouded suff as a legendary
tribal marlin
If Assa is too close to standards sims it will become too strong later in the expac
loud niche
"hes clowning" but he's the #1 sin rog io and raid...
fleet anchor
Although at some point
fleet whale
shrouded suff would be a really lame leggo
fleet anchor
Blizzard should probably ask themselves
wide bolt
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
balmy condor
"hes clowning" but he's the #1 sin rog io and raid...
yes, that's because no one plays sin
strange python
@loud niche Being rank 1 out of 5 ppl
little basalt
And cut to the chase
strange python
needs some skills i think 😄
fleet anchor
Why Assassination has a +44% class passive and is still 10% behind 🤣
faint harness
No koji
fleet whale
cause sin needs a revamp
faint harness
That would require them to do their job
static glacier
imagine rank 1 parsing and losing to blue mage
faint harness
Instead of pretending
loud niche
yes, that's because no one plays sin
I'll play sin for a bit to prove myself right i suppose, then would you believe me? and i'm only 1/10m :C
tribal marlin
As I said, Assa is that kind of spec you can look at simc and say "ok this is the expected DPS from an Assa Rogue".
Aside of this, when you look at Subtle spec you have to tell you "ok yes but the guy might only do 60% of that number if the fight goes bad etc..."
faint harness
Get frequent mechanics as sub and watch dps suffer
little basalt
shrouded suff would be a really lame leggo
It may be, but so are all of the best rogue leggos honestly
balmy condor
I'll play sin for a bit to prove myself right i suppose, then would you believe ...
sure, get 2 power infusions every pull, and stomp on that guy
please do
it would be great
static glacier
tbh sin isn't a bad target for PI is it
2 min main cd, benefits heavily from haste
faint harness
The best rogue spec for it
balmy condor
so I have to stop answer questions like "why #1 sin rogue doing gar ambush gar in opener"
faint harness
Dont say much
static glacier
is he on this discord / talks english?
tribal marlin
Wait that Peen guy is getting PI aswell ?
little basalt
that its literally the worst way to open with subt
How do you open?
balmy condor
gar mut snd
faint harness
Did you save ash like a good boi whispyr
static glacier
on this hungering destroyer kill he didn't get PI
stone epoch
are they just trying to pandemic lengthen out the garrote by a bit? what's the idea behind it?
balmy condor
Did you save ash like a good boi whispyr
no kekw
stone epoch
or is it just, no clue
faint harness
Unforch
fleet whale
so is Peen turning into the new 34% crit?
balmy condor
are they just trying to pandemic lengthen out the garrote by a bit? what's the i...
probably a mixture of "we did double garrote in bfa cause garrote pumps and ambush is a stealth ability so lets hit that too"
stone epoch
not saying it's good and I wanna try it, just wondering where they might be coming from
ah fair
loud niche
peen didnt get PI for 1/10m, and he's 94 parsing average in mythic nyalotha
fleet whale
well 94 to like 99
balmy condor
30?
static glacier
balance druid and arcane mage got the PI in the kill I sent the wcl from
tribal marlin
I can't wait to play Sin Rogue with PI later in the expac
loud niche
99 avg most of bfa, peen
tribal marlin
Imagine that god damn TB Sepsis with PI + BL 
balmy condor
peen should write a guide or something
loud niche
idc all that much who it is that's on top not sucking any peens yknow, just trying to get a feel of what the expected dps would be from a top end standpoint ¯_(ツ)_/¯
fleet whale
i mean you can do a lot of things "wrong" as assassin and still parse high, this was even the case in bfa
static glacier
it's a whole 1% dps loss?
fleet anchor
I mean everyone makes mistakes
loud niche
You said it but then didn't explain how or why, and then someone asked what his parses were in bfa, so i gave them
static glacier
fair enough, did he rank 1 parse as much in BfA?
loud niche
no
balmy condor
its infuriating cause I was the one that spent time simming that
and now I have to answer questions daily
why the top rogue
isn't doing what's optimal
loud niche
he was avg of 99 parse in bfa across the xpac, but in nya only like 94
tribal marlin
haha @balmy condor I don't believe he's loosing 1% overall dps because he's doing the wrong 3 firsts globals ^^
static glacier
people legit ask questions about sin opener?
fleet anchor
R1 guy for Outlaw has R1s across like 8 fights but he still uses his on-use trinket in his opener macro'd with his AR instead of waiting for BtE debuff (which affects trinkets)
People do silly things all the time 🙂
balmy condor
haha <@!167090536602140682> I don't believe he's loosing 1% overall dps because ...
its wrong from every vanish
tribal marlin
oh I see
static glacier
I'm impressed, considering how few sin parses there are
fleet whale
Peen and Infexious can co write a SL sin guide
loud niche
KEKW
balmy condor
people legit ask questions about sin opener?
I get the "why double garrote" question like every 2 days at least
sometimes more
tribal marlin
Well anyway, I don't mean to be toxic, but as soon as Assa will be meta, we will forget about that Peen guy :/
fleet whale
unless if he still tops charts somehow
balmy condor
having to justify his subterfuge nonsense
fleet anchor
I'll get a 226 dagger in cache next week and go Assassination and show everyone!!
fleet whale
brah just pvp for weapons
fleet anchor
oops I need two daggers, nm 😛
static glacier
I remember in bfa we didn't even double garrote without SS iirc
balmy condor
correct
static glacier
😢
fleet anchor
brah just pvp for weapons
Like I'm wasting my conq on a dagger 🤣
static glacier
real question is, where do you think peen is getting his playstyle from
balmy condor
his ass
static glacier
do you reckon there's a really weird reason he double garrotes
fleet anchor
I mean let's be honest, even 1% is not that much tbh
tribal marlin
maybe Assa will be the go to spec for M denathrius xD
It was close to Sub dps in execute range
fleet anchor
People just do what they do
static glacier
like some preference of spell order in the opening 20 secs
fleet anchor
Nobody plays optimally all the time
tribal marlin
now it might do 6% more in Execute Range 
balmy condor
I mean let's be honest, even 1% is not that much tbh
we say that and then nit-pick about if an 8% buff is 7% or 8% or 6%
strange python
convince me to join the Assassination Spec! 😐
static glacier
thing is there's a difference between aspiring to optimal play and your execution coming up short
and consistently playing suboptimally
for a reason
fleet anchor
I mean unless he's claiming he's the best Assassination player in the universe
balmy condor
I honestly think he just doesn't know better
fleet anchor
I think he just happens to be the only geared one playing it seriously
And thus R1s
balmy condor
yup
static glacier
btw are there theorycrafters for specific specs
or are you just overall rogue CF / TC?
fleet anchor
When someone shows up and is beasting R1s in a crowded field using a different strat, then you start to get curious.. but in this situation, I think it just is what it is 😛
balmy condor
koji is a CF because he's a simcraft dev
tribal marlin
convince me to join the Assassination Spec! 😐
EAsy, you reset your details when entering Execute range, and then you'll feel like you do normal dps !
balmy condor
I was technically promoted to be the sin CF
static glacier
you've been found guilty
balmy condor
but it's not a hard role like "oh he's the X and that guy's the Y"
fleet whale
Pika is the best rogue in the world
static glacier
of not flying the sin flag in WCL 😦
fleet whale
for all three specs
fleet anchor
I do TC work for all 3 specs. I do tend to focus most on whatever the meta spec is just because it gets the most attention, but I played all 3 specs in BfA so I like working on all of them.
balmy condor
CF's are just basically "you can trust the info from this person, he's proven to be helpful and knowledgable"
and that's bout it
fuu theorycrafts
balmy condor
I ran a couple sims for sin
fleet anchor
Fuu and Mystler do largely like focusing on Sub but work on other stuff too
balmy condor
vel muted rae as a joke, but we can't unmute him cause moroes is broken
dense cedar
I find it weird that I haven't been made a CF yet
balmy condor
@shy dust react to me if you're alive in there, are you hanging in?
and now
we wait
strange python
How much dps should I be pulling as 210ilvl
strange python
On st fights
balmy condor
How much dps should I be pulling as 210ilvl
how much are you simming for
strange python
5.5
balmy condor
mortal pike
go to logs, sort by your class/spec for the fight you want to see
then sort by item level 🙂
balmy condor
5.5k in sin?
balmy condor
wrong channel bud 
tribal marlin
wait how dafuq did I ended up 8th on Mythic shriekwing >.<
balmy condor
more of a dom myself
strange python
I'm interchanga--- Imeanwut
balmy condor
wat
fleet whale
Do you think Gordon Ramsay would make a good raid leader?
balmy condor
probably not
tribal marlin
oh nvm I think we did only one phase 2
strange python
Yes.
dim yacht
has anyone noticed that using echoing reprimand in stealth in torghast applies find weakness?
balmy condor
I think ramsay doesn't have enough patience for raid leading
fleet anchor
It's everywhere
balmy condor
has anyone noticed that using echoing reprimand in stealth in torghast applies f...
yes, that's a known bug
fleet anchor
Has been reported
fleet anchor
I mean on the plus side, it's not like there are a lot of unknowns about Assassination in SL. The spec hardly changed at all. Especially when the best legendaries are passive. 😛
dim yacht
ah okay so torghast only i assume
fleet whale
rupturing spike torghast power made baseline passive for assassin in 9.1
blizz dev just emailed me that
balmy condor
I mean on the plus side, it's not like there are a lot of unknowns about Assassi...
I wish I could optimize APL some more but nothing I look into is a gain cause its all already optimized to the bone
tribal marlin
https://i.imgur.com/i72rDpe.png look at da boy blasting xymog
balmy condor
I'll get to work coding a functional torghast sim
reuse top gear to select powers as you go
it sims in real time
fleet anchor
😮
balmy condor
seems very useful
tribal marlin
Gotta work on that TorghastSlice APL
If they release a competitive version of Torghast, you gotta bet that'll happens xD
fleet anchor
Some of the more ambitious SimC devs are tempted to support it
But it's a lot of work for a novelty project atm lol
If it gets more serious for some reason, we'll probably do it
loud niche
hey guys, how much dps should i be getting? i sim 3.8k dps with oils no buffs
balmy condor
then you should get roughly that
tribal marlin
Then you make an addon that use a raidbot dedicated tier-App to send informations to raidbot servers, and the add-on will tell you what anima to choose
in real time
fleet anchor
lol
strange python
Need someone who's good at math. 8% of 4.9k?
balmy condor
1.08 * 4.9
tribal marlin
you just need to press /run print(0.08*4900) in wow
balmy condor
True
strange python
Huh. That's neat, lol.
balmy condor
I pay my sub every month for a fancy 3D calculator
strange python
Simmed Assassination for giggles. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/b27a3wYahF3U8i3jFGznz9
tribal marlin
when you could have just abuse of the WoW servers to do your maths 😮
fleet anchor
I will update SimC tomorrow with a manual hotfix
tribal marlin
You won't exactly see 8% more damage as said Koji earlier
loud niche
do it again without any buffs tho
fleet anchor
I didn't have time tonight, but will do in the afternoon
tribal marlin
Melee / Trinket / Potion and Enchants won't see 8% increase
strange python
I know, it's why I wanted to know 8% of that, or is that not how it works?
Right, derp.
balmy condor
I will update SimC tomorrow with a manual hotfix
Sneak it into the nightly ;)
fleet anchor
I'll just ask Seri to do a rebuild tomorrow when it's in 😛
balmy condor
fleet anchor
We can get nightly rebuilds as needed if it's something major
strange python
Banned Pog.
tribal marlin
I wasn't able to get into raid yesterday btw
balmy condor
tribal marlin
but i'm 99% sure the shadowmeld thing is effectivement counting as a stealth ambush xD
balmy condor
Koji urgent
fleet anchor
I put that in
balmy condor
Major sin change
fleet anchor
The stealth Ambush thingy
tribal marlin
Ok I'll still double check next time I get in raid just to be sure
I wonder how much increase it is for ne xD
tribal marlin
haha
fleet anchor
(I was Alliance for years :D)
tribal marlin
I love my shadowmeld, never i'll go horde xD
fleet anchor
Alright, bed for me. But I'll put in the hotfix relatively early tomorrow morning and update in tc-updates when it's available on raidbots.
Then people can stop pestering Whispyr about how to use calc.exe
tribal marlin
glossy galleon
is assassination going to be better than sub with the 8% buff?
balmy condor
is assassination going to be better than sub with the 8% buff?
Probably not
glossy galleon
dang, in heroic 95% parses its like 13% off, dont think better players potentially playing it make up the other 5%?
balmy condor
It’ll be better than sub in cleave and aoe tho
loud niche
if you're alli and you're not playing mechagnome for rogue you're trolling your friends
balmy condor
dang, in heroic 95% parses its like 13% off, dont think better players potential...
Might be 2-3%
Not major
fleet anchor
Friends don't let friends play diapergnomes
tribal marlin
imagine an entiere raid of mechgnome
strange python
apes if they were playing SL 😄
balmy condor
i dont want play sub anymore
I mean, sin won’t be troll anymore. It’s just slightly weaker. If you can’t play sub well, sin is honestly a good alternative. Also has execute from blindside/zoldyck, which can be useful
loud niche
any melee alli should be mechagnome. 40 agi just for existing PogU
tribal marlin
haa idk dude
I want to see how that meld ambush thing is affecting outlaw
can be good actually
glossy galleon
i can paly sub well i just like sin more 😛 i was sin for like 5 expansions straight before i decided to just play what was best, then they made outlaw and i decided to just play what was best other than outlaw because no
balmy condor
I want to see how that meld ambush thing is affecting outlaw
Already in simc
tribal marlin
nah the actual build doesn't count meld ambush as a stealth ambush
which sounds logic
but it seems like in game behaviour do count meld ambush as stealth ambush
tribal marlin
oooh
no it should be good
Hero damage probably not up to date but the change should be in if Koji changed it yesterday
thanks to Vaugn I wasn't able to get in raid yesterday
tribal marlin
ye I saw
strange python
But KT Rogue man.
balmy condor
Might be mut gar enven or something
loud niche
even with MA leggo? since it's abush 1st with MA talent
balmy condor
You don’t ambush from stealth
valid ruin
Why isnt shiv showing up as a cast in logs? The answer is probably here some were but i cant find it.
balmy condor
Because it’s jank
strange python
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/h5jNZc5vgMT24ysdtVzZDa i guess i am flyiing 😄
valid ruin
jank?
manic fossil
question how bad is necrolord for sin? im currently leveling with it and like the idea of it but i dont wanna be that much lower because of cov choice.
loud niche
96 parsed N sludge as sin with subterfuge + ma ring 190. i feel qualified to be a CF now.
plain spruce
@manic fossil worst cov for sin/all specs in most environments
mossy sable
Not sure if I wann craft Scoundrel or Zoldyck
balmy condor
If you aren’t sure, craft zoldyck
mossy sable
I plan to mostly raid
balmy condor
Then craft zoldyck
balmy condor
The only reason imo
To not craft zoldyck
Is if you are playing outlaw on every fight except like sludge/hungering/shriek/xymox
mossy sable
Is the energy from Scoundrel even that impactful?
Also I might swap back and forth from Sin to Law
balmy condor
It’s kinda impactful
If your main hate on sin is energy regen
Might be worth to lessen the pain
mossy sable
That really is my issue XD
balmy condor
Wouldn’t recommend playing sin on sire and stuff if you do that though
mossy sable
Hmmm
cosmic trail
Why does it seem like leeching poison isnt healing me?
loud niche
the heal is 10% of your poison dmg isnt it?
balmy condor
whispyr, are you in a raid team?
I’m a raid lead, but I’m not a giga player
My book-knowledge is much higher than my raid progress
If that’s the question
loud niche
i always wonder with ppl who TC if they're out here in the front lines w me
fighting off these dks and monks for raid spots
balmy condor
Lmao
Usually, yes
But kinda no
Lok, guy, tisu, seli are all very very good
The rest are a mixed bag
drifting cloud
drifting imp
This channel was so dead a while ago lmao
fallow solar
Is WW actually good single target or they just padding the adds?
balmy condor
They’re good
sour gorge
+8% damage on the spec. Do you think it will be viable for pve ?
balmy condor
Pins
sour gorge
Just saw. Thanks !
lucid stirrup
viable spot for raids.. what about m+?
loud niche
+8% damage on the spec. Do you think it will be viable for pve ?
no, but you wont be hard trolling to play it anymore
balmy condor
viable spot for raids.. what about m+?
Have to see, probably will be fine
lucid stirrup
hope so! dont like outlaw 😄
balmy condor
The other specs will be better
sour gorge
But strong in m+
balmy condor
But sin is gonna be fine
loud niche
1 more 5% buff and its competitive
sour gorge
Yeah
cosmic trail
What aura buff are they talking about?
loud niche
the one coming 12th
cosmic trail
I meant like is it a passive or something we're getting or just a buff to the class in general
balmy condor
Each spec in the game has a hidden passive that increases their damage done (not counting autos/trinkets/etc)
That’s the aura
So an aura buff is all of that
cosmic trail
ah
loud niche
if they increased dmg done by autos for sin 😍
ornate gazelle
Probably been asked a million times, but is raidbots updated with the 8% buff?
loud niche
dont think so
balmy condor
Will be tomorrow night
stark heart
You can update it for your sim, just override spelldata
stark heart
Just 2 lines, it's pretty simple
balmy condor
Would never have “go sim it” questions ever again
stark heart
Imagine if everyone knew how to override spelldata
I believe there is a wiki page
balmy condor
I know
The problem is
Even with a wiki
90% of the people here
Will not understand how to do any of that
Most people have never coded a day in their life, and have no interest in doing so or understanding it
stark heart
Sadly I know you are right
I mean you don't need coding to plug two lines in advanced
balmy condor
For the average player, Hitting advanced = coding
stark heart
It's literally using publicly available info and rb
zenith mesa
If you subtract the non-buffed skills from our dmg (melee,trinkets,enchants,pots) then only 60% from our dps will get a 8% buff which means all in all we get a 4,8% buff to our dps which is quite underwhelming
marble magnet
balmy condor
Yes
fossil slate
Gonna be quite fun to get to use sin in some fights 🥳
stark heart
I expect them to "fix" spec via tier bonuses and prob new lego. Can see cut to the chase being one of those 
cursive cipher
Does the 8% Buff mean i can Play Assa now in M+ without trolling my mates? 😅
main wharf
whispyr's dark rituals paid off 🙄
dense cedar
next patch: 15% dmg nerf
balmy condor
whispyr's dark rituals paid off 🙄
And people still ungrateful
main wharf
I just can't get into sin, not my cup of tea glad for yall tho
cursive cipher
Don’t get really warm with outlaw so maybe I try sin in m+ after the buff
placid moss
/g hello
main wharf
hi?
tribal marlin
I believe assa should be in line with bottom tier spec now
probably simming for 6300+ with bis profile
it's not enough, but deffo a good start. And as I said multiple time, Assa isn't suffering from Downtime/Displacement as much as top tier spec on simc charts are
mossy sable
Most people have never coded a day in their life, and have no interest in doing ...
The most I know how to do is write some custom lua code
stark heart
That's giga already
balmy condor
Yeh that’s huge
strange python
Sooo maybe i craft my lvl 4 leggo for sin
glass root
should we be like congrating each other for getting buffed ? xD
stark heart
Yeah, open champagne
glass root
yay i get blamed les
mossy sable
Pins just say haste mostly, what stat should I also put on my Sin leggo
strange python
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
strange python
Versa haste
strange python
Dashing Scoundrel or Zoldyck?
And both at the feet slot?
Or do u think we can wear 2 leggos one time?
mossy sable
Maybe someday
strange python
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
balmy condor
Zoldyck on legs
strange python
I see
balmy condor
Yeh, probably will be fine
mossy sable
balmy condor
Sounds about right
rustic thunder
It’s crazy that it’s so much harder to craft leather & mail legggos
Along with increased demand because so many classes use it
mossy sable
balmy condor
The skins are a bitch
vestal wren
125k seems expensive
celest ruin
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
pastel notch
I would have thought an 8% buff would take sin above sub at least for raiding no? Especially with how much less reliant it is on physical uptime
balmy condor
It’s not actually 8% is the issue
Autos/trinkets/etc aren’t counted in that
8% even then, wouldn’t be enough
This is enough to get sin to not be a troll spec
And actually be usable
And sorta have that execute niche
unborn flint
how much % would actually be enough then ?
tall basalt
i dont think its a matter of %
i think he's trying to say the issue is in the spec's abilities/talents/etc
balmy condor
That’s not quite what I’m saying
Although 44% to an aura and still not being enoigh
Is concerning
I think sin has a serious problem with its multipliers
But that’s a math puzzle for another time
The point is that if you want it to outsim something like outlaw or sub
It’s not gonna be enough
But if you want to play sin
It’s gonna be enough
jaunty arrow
Its like not great not terible 
pine grove
Better than we were before, at least.
jaunty arrow
But playable
balmy condor
We’re below average compared to every other spec in the game
It’s just not trash to the point of “lul don’t play this”
It’s more like “oh a sin rogue, that’s odd”
tall basalt
you can probably play prot pally and sim higher than a sin rogue
low girder
Like finding a frost mage in the wild
tall basalt
that was mostly a joke but
pine grove
One of the things I do like about sin is the relatively low punishment for loss of contact compared to the other two specs.
tall basalt
yeah, even if you get cced you can still do quite a bit of damage
balmy condor
that was mostly a joke but
I can’t tell the difference between pepega and joke anymore after a year or so of spec channels skullfucking my brain to a pulp
pine grove
That's a good sentence.
tall basalt
yeah my bad, my humor is really dry and often comes off as me being genuine
balmy condor
That’s honestly a mood
tall basalt
lmao
balmy condor
My humor is fairly dry as well, so I come off as a cunt constantly
low girder
Spent too much time in sub
pastel notch
One of the things I do like about sin is the relatively low punishment for loss ...
This is why I think it could end up being meta
low girder
jaunty arrow
what if they brought exang back
God pls no
tall basalt
except it doesnt decrease the timer
hollow escarp
exsang is fun
pastel notch
like if 8% damage is enough to make it on par with Outlaw say, then it's immediately better because of not needing to be in melee necessarily
balmy condor
I actually like exsang
pastel notch
I liked Exsang
tall basalt
i liked exsang
low girder
Exsang is fun, it's just bad
hollow escarp
that's a different issue
pine grove
This is why I think it could end up being meta
It will certainly help it, at the very least. It should perform closer to the sims than sub. Particularly if you're on P3 Sire and you've got so little contact with the boss. At least that's what it feels like in my guild.
tall basalt
i think if they made it a finisher that reduces the time between ticks for all your bleeds (meaning there are more ticks of dmg over the same duration)
it might not be hated
hollow escarp
I guess I'm not upgrading rank 4 celerity now, will craft a rank 2 assa legendary 
pastel notch
I'm just gonna yolo it, I'm gonna make Zoldyck next week and turn up to Mythic, see what happens 
balmy condor
like if 8% damage is enough to make it on par with Outlaw say, then it's immedia...
Yep. Me and seli were talking about this actually. If sin and sub simmed close to equal, sub would be a dead spec basically. So we agreed that like -5% on sin would be “balanced” so to speak. We’re nearing like 7-8% with these buffs if the napkin math is accurate
hollow escarp
I did a +10 as outlaw with Finality equipped, nobody noticed 
hollow escarp
Could probably use 2-3% more
that's where player skills comes to close the gap 
pine grove
I'm just gonna yolo it, I'm gonna make Zoldyck next week and turn up to Mythic, ...
Yeah. That's my plan. I'm hoping my massively increased experience with sin and the low punishment will let me get some higher numbers.
low girder
Buff it more and gimme my dust back 
celest ruin
buffs to assa are not enough, honestly just buff assa more and sub too
balmy condor
that's where player skills comes to close the gap <:Kapp:660749987675766825>
Yeh I actually kinda think so
celest ruin
i hate outlaw with a passion
hollow escarp
I like outlaw more than sub right now
buoyant mauve
yeah I miss combat
pastel notch
I like Outlaw with the RtB changes
tall basalt
lets just get blizz to make rogue a mail class 
hollow escarp
lets just get blizz to make rogue a mail class <:Kappa:675691839881216001>
at least the sets would look good
pastel notch
Ranged rogue spec when? 
hollow escarp
death coil, death coil
celest ruin
didnt rogue get a talent or something at mop
where you throw a shuriken and all your attacks become ranged at that target
buoyant mauve
shuriken throw
hollow escarp
aren't most rogues playing dk now?
buoyant mauve
nerfed in 5.2 iirc
buoyant mauve
aren't most rogues playing dk now? <:PEPW:691791304723660841>
actually I'm lvling a ww atm :p
surreal hawk
i was actually asked by my guild if i wanna roll dk 
hollow escarp
actually I'm lvling a ww atm :p
I had a depression trip and leveled a dk, but stopped at level 30
buoyant mauve
mine made it to lvl 14 considering I despise unh
buoyant mauve
I dislike pet classes
stuck tartan
sin buffs and there's fuck tons of snow in my city, feelsgoodman
buoyant mauve
considering how long it's taking me to get to renown 21 with kyrian, I'm wondering if I should just start now to work toward 30 with nf
surreal hawk
also u get to do both campaigns 
stuck tartan
content
buoyant mauve
I know it's 3 per week but what I'm saying is with as long as it's taking for me to catch up to 21, I may as well start catching up with nf
stuck tartan
u'll do even more then lmao, but yeah i understand
hollow escarp
I think if you've done or the current weekly content that gives renown, you will start getting renown from other sources randomly
sweet pecan
i hear we getting a 9% buff
hollow escarp
8%
sweet pecan
does this mean ass is as good as sub now?
hollow escarp
sweet pecan
whats the difference now? give or take
hollow escarp
just make sure to change spec to assa before every key starts and you can easily do M+
jaunty arrow
Sub/outlaw still stronger
I guess assa will now can be competetiv, but still there is more issue than %dmg buff.
pure ingot
i hear we getting a 9% buff
about 6.5% damage overall I believe
sweet pecan
youa re likely a better source then me, i got hearsay only
wind canopy
I'm just gonna yolo it, I'm gonna make Zoldyck next week and turn up to Mythic, ...
Me too 😂 we can hit the bench together
sinful island
does 8% aura buff affect melee attack?
lost sentinel
says ability damage
sinful island
considering that frost was even to us at raid, they will outrun us hard having 9% more at all their damage, am I right?
young veldt
are the sin changes live?
stuck tartan
they're not live
young veldt
thanks
tiny imp
Is this specc after the buff now viable?
stuck tartan
timber oak
I'm just like "screw it all, gonna play sin." realy
tiny imp
Thanks
rigid tartan
The class tunings come on reset. The difference will be more than 8% (in comparison to other two specs) on real bosses because of downtimes and cleave I think. It will perform better on sire most probably if you also soak in p3
teal geyser
if its almost even in pure dps with sub / outlaw i think assa will be ahead when it comes to fights like sludgefist where your bleeds still ticking while having downtime on the boss
but this is just me
stuck tartan
sludgefist is a shitshow
rigid tartan
I believe it as well 
teal geyser
true story
stuck tartan
so still, anything that isnt melee is going to be better
real bay
how's ass in torghast
stuck tartan
its great
rigid tartan
Good
real bay
i will never step in as outlaw again, twisting layer1 was pain
lost sentinel
it seemed ok, I think I like sub more though
stuck tartan
outlaw is the worst of the three in torghast
lost sentinel
TC felt like they made it for groups, or I guess maybe tanks, my veng. DH did great in layer 2 but last boss was close to 1 shot
stuck tartan
i feel like its fucking random
same level twice, first the boss literally dealt 80k per autoattack to me
had to try again, differente boss, floor 18 as before, I didnt even go below 90% hp
with even less hp
cause the revendreth trait
jagged elk
hey!
i heard sin would be a nice pick for torghast.
which anima do we prefer to take there?
cheers
rose condor
stuck tartan
hey!
i heard sin would be a nice pick for torghast.
which anima do we prefer to...
sin IS a good pick for torghast
first step, vein ripper, envenom damage, chain to power up garrotes...
sick scarab
yes
tardy steppe
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
tardy steppe
oh shee if i want to switch from sub to sin i need to change a lot of items
got like 2% haste now
stuck tartan
yeah, u need a lot of haste on sin
sick scarab
buffs are comiiing
topaz saffron
Im so glad I geared completly for sin at this point
woeful wigeon
@vestal wren @balmy condor 8% still no changes from dashing scoundrell vs doomsblade then you sure ?
stuck tartan
i went outlaw for a while just cause similar stats
stuck tartan
<@!194804407706189824> <@!167090536602140682> 8% stil...
zoldyck better in general, dashing better in ST, still the same
woeful wigeon
any way i will test it out cause i dop way more dps with doomblade on bosses then the other 2 that not a joke
maby these powers are just blep at some point
as i got way to mutch mastery atm
stuck tartan
maybe that's why u deal more with doomsblade, idk if it's good with mastery
but mastery is pretty terrible at the moment
woeful wigeon
20%crit 12% haste 27%mastery 12-13% versa
th most gear is wioth mastery anyways atm hard to grind the right once
stuck tartan
yeah thats true, still, even with mastery some ilvl upgrades are worth
pearl canyon
vestal wren
<@!194804407706189824> <@!167090536602140682> 8% stil...
whats the question?
possible that legendary item choice changes, i can't say before re-running sims but its likely that they stay as they are
restive inlet
8% across the board, shouldn't change any legendary prio list. I might be an idiot, but I can't see any math that changes if everything increases at the same exogenous rate
velvet ridge
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
random raft
So is 8% going to bring sin in line? Just for raiding? Or will we get m+ too? What does everyone think?
earnest hedge
tardy steppe
When will coldheart interstitia be up again in thorghast?
cedar pilot
So is 8% going to bring sin in line? Just for raiding? Or will we get m+ too? W...
Think the outlaw kit is just too good in m+ tbh, but assa might be okayish
quaint sequoia
sin hype?
amber quail
not so much...
carmine flare
Unfortunately, sin's formerly butter smooth rotation has now been tarnished by snd, which is less of an annoyance with the other specs imo
stuck tartan
how so
amber quail
not enough buff, 13.4 total(5+8) is lower than needed IMHO
carmine flare
i feel it sits awkwardly beside sin's toolkit
we wont know until we see how it performs in action
amber quail
lower than other XD
carmine flare
i dont know about lower than sib
amber quail
as whyspir said: viable
vale marten
id say on fight like hungering destroyer sin is better
carmine flare
sub isnt exactly spectacular in the raid right now
in fact, i would equally use viable to describe sub
amber quail
i cannot love sub gameplay...my fail i know, but i really don't like
carmine flare
the go to is outlaw anyway
outlaw is more than viable
sub and now sin are viable
amber quail
but FEEL sin nowaday too slow and dependent on extra tool as conduilt etc to be competitive
in simple words: needs more than raw dmg
altought it will be insane 😄
velvet ridge
in vanish, im using ambush mostly yes?
halcyon grail
with master assassin yes, with subterfuge no, garrote.
or garote ambush snd garrote
velvet ridge
how often would you say you hit 3 envenoms
velvet ridge
okay
velvet ridge
1 out of 4 hm?, i feel like i might be doing more than that
i try to have an ambush up before i press shiv
velvet ridge
im not
tardy steppe
if i garrotte from stealth with Subterfuge does the 80% dmg increase count for the full duration or only the first so ticks when your still in "stealth"
shy dust
if i garrotte from stealth with Subterfuge does the 80% dmg increase count for t...
Full thing
Garrote from stealth with subterfuge is empowered till it runs out or you refresh it outside of subterfugue
velvet ridge
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
tough quest
Will assassination be viable with the 8% buff
halcyon grail
aaaand everybody drinks.
drifting light
Will assassination be viable with the 8% buff
north pewter
Will assassination be viable with the 8% buff
It's already viable, you just have to play it perfectly
tropic ocean
are there new sims
young flume
shell canopy
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
versed mica
Is it reasonable to play sin rogue to get 15's in time for m+?
After the buff I mean
stuck tartan
You're gonna have it easier in outlaw, but I dont think u cant on sin
loud mason
Are we allowed into m+ after the new buff on jan 12 ?
native turtle
player perception is a hell of a thing so i'm also leaning towards no
strange python
Here’s what you do. Hear me out.
royal lantern
if you pug m+, you will struggle too get into keys as rogue anyway 
strange python
Que as outlaw
Quietly swap once everyone walks into the instance
And you’re still outside
native turtle
strange python
Fail key by 2 minutes
loud mason
on of the top ferals in m+ told me a tactic to get rio easily
royal lantern
and dont take you cus there is a mm hunter with 700score applying for the same key
loud mason
enter dungeon as feral, go out change to balance, rio counts towards feral rio
fickle agate
crit/versa for m+??
stuck tartan
haste still better
fickle agate
than versa?
stuck tartan
Than both, u need both versa and crit too, yeah, but haste is still better
fickle agate
i see
stuck tartan
even if u get more crit for fok cps, u still lose the haste for making it worth
fickle agate
I have 30+ crit
velvet ridge
if i choose 1 legendary for raid, and raid only, what would it be. does zoldycks out perform in raid, since its not always single target
stuck tartan
zoldyck is better in general so yeah
strange python
Sim the pins
stoic needle
in vanish, im using ambush mostly yes?
@AxeL#3614 you should use mutilate instead of ambush. Only ambush with blindside
tropic ocean
its already not super easy to get into 15s as outlaw despite ilvl/progress/score/last season score @loud mason
with shaman heal being meta currently most pugs want hunter/mage +monk/boomer
assassination will lower your chances, as you lack the control that makes you good for keys
rapid harbor
drifting cosmos
aka still bad ish
velvet ridge
im reading the opener on ravenholdyt, for masterassassin, and it just seems wrong, or can someone explain why
2 questions
why am i mutilated before i apply garrote
and second, why am i not envemoning right after shiv, it says shiv, then build cp then envemon, shouldnt shiv essentially be the last cp you generate
kindred wind
I’m interested to see if @marble hemlock will pick up Sin for m+ with the upcoming buff.
velvet ridge
does shiv increase sepsis dmg, or is that another thing that doesnt apply
subtle tundra
pretty sure assa m+ dmg is lackluster
kindred wind
That’s what we all said in BFA as well and he was hyper competitive with it
subtle tundra
thats cause they were close on dmg
its not close now
give assa shrouded suffocation again, and then its gonna be good
subtle tundra
i only played assa in bfa, so now playing outlaw isnt that bad for me xd
kindred wind
I went from OL back to Sin and loved it
proven ferry
Why ?
kindred wind
No, would not do that right now
proven ferry
I will wait 5 more days before switching from sin to OL
And then probably stick with OL rest of the xpac
manic canopy
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
empty cradle
And then probably stick with OL rest of the xpac
not really a bad choice
if conduits dont get adjusted outlaw has some of the best ones for rogue
humble socket
I think Assass will be better than viable after their buff. I think their damge profile is just better than sub for raiding, and with Zoldyks they have more priority dps
knotty heron
Question - I want to try assassin now with buffa
Is Zoldyck really better than Dashing Scoundrel?
Scoundrel feels like the energy regen would feel very nice?
rigid wyvern
execute on adds / in general for progress is worth the slight dps loss vs scoundrel on pure single target
knotty heron
Im talking purely raid
rigid wyvern
ya in raid, you do much more damage in multi-target situations with zoldycks, and the execute is better for progress on bosses that are pure single target
knotty heron
Okay i will go that route then!
gusty ledge
I might sound heretical here but can I finally (not really been that long but still) come back to sin and dump sub for pve?
Sitting on 4k ash atm was gonna craft celerity but if sin just got buffed 👀
spice spire
Sim is finally a non-troll class, yes
Sin* it’s not going to outpump but it’s not in a bad spot anymore
gusty ledge
Word, guess I'll do some research on covs/conduits/leggos then. Cheers!
pastel notch
could honestly see sin being better; if the sim dps is close then sin will be the better spec for progress at least
Worst part for me is I'm so well itemised for Sub rn 
got like zero haste lol
gusty ledge
Honestly my sub sims showed my stats as all being so close to equal ive just been throwing on highest ilvl piece
pastel notch
Yah it's same for me, I've just been super lucky with Vers / Crit pieces
spice spire
While agility is king >15% haste feels better
bleak glacier
does anyone else feel like sin is energy starved?
spice spire
For sin*
pastel notch
I have 4% rn 
spice spire
I do not. I have 769 haste and am doing an action almost on GCD.
bleak glacier
like sub just spams black powder and shurikens
gusty ledge
Oh so sin uses korayn from nf?
bleak glacier
i gotta wait to get energy to do damage lol
spice spire
Sin is much faster right now than it is most expansions in tier 1
sharp pivot
I really love the sin spec, but I'm outlaw this early patch, but the buff make me in trouble, I want to play sin, but i'm doing mythic with my guild, do you think it will be worth ? :/
spice spire
Give it a week or so before you decide. Luckily for you, the stats on sin and outlaw are pretty similar. So it’s just weapons you’d need
velvet ridge
i just dont know what legendary to go, its a diifciult choice, for pure raiding
sharp pivot
Ok
spice spire
For pure raiding it’s still Zoldyck’s
Dashing is bis for pure single target, if you have to swap at all, or have any amount of cleave, Zoldyck’s over takes
rigid wyvern
sin is niya for night fae
gusty ledge
Word, I'm niya atm renown cap so that's nice
rigid wyvern
korayn might be better in m+ but im pretty sure its niya for raid
question for yall on multi target, is it worth it to overwrite subterfuge garrote to avoid garrote downtime?
uneven hamlet
The haste from nadja venthyr, wouldn't be good too?
balmy condor
question for yall on multi target, is it worth it to overwrite subterfuge garrot...
Depends on the downtime, but no
balmy condor
The haste from nadja venthyr, wouldn't be good too?
Not as good as other things like kyrian or night fae
The difference between venthyr/kyrian/fae is like 1.5% though
So really doesn’t matter
grim canopy
i guess thats the one good thing about having crappy covs
stuck tartan
why's niya better than dreamweaver at this renown
tired falcon
I’m assuming that’s because of gi
stuck tartan
is the mastery buff that good in comparison to potency conduits?
balmy condor
Because grove invig is better than conduits
stuck tartan
oh ok
stuck tartan
ok ok, good to know
balmy condor
Like 13 ilvl on a conduit is less than a socket
stuck tartan
then i'll change back to niya yeah lmao
ebon oar
What’s the consensus on legendary stats? Haste + mastery?
stuck tartan
haste+versa/crit
worn path
Sim
ebon oar
Mmk
grim canopy
whats the dps diff btwn EP and Blindside for ST
rigid wyvern
Blindside feels so much better to play imo
stuck tartan
is korayn good enough to change to him when we get him?
balmy condor
For m+ 100%
stuck tartan
good enough then, ok
pulsar sluice
conduits are a huge gain ... if you're outlaw
balmy condor
Well even then it’s just cto
tired falcon
Not sure why conduits aren’t spec specific 😦
balmy condor
And still not that giga
balmy condor
Not sure why conduits aren’t spec specific 😦
They are?
tired falcon
If you switch specs, it doesn’t reset
balmy condor
Oh
tired falcon
So you have to spend whatever currency they are called to switch
balmy condor
It’ll change soulbind trees
pulsar sluice
cause time gates 
rigid wyvern
That's because it's a "meaningful choice"
stuck tartan
tbh i just had niya for one, and dreamweaver for the other lmao
tired falcon
It’s just that when I’m trying to multi spec, I spend 2 -3(crystals?) when re speccing, and before I know it, it’s all gone
rigid wyvern
Pins mention fok talent + katar for m+ at higher ranks, when is that?
balmy condor
It’s just that when I’m trying to multi spec, I spend 2 -3(crystals?) when re sp...
Why not just use 2 soulbind trees?
Sub wants niya, outlaw wants Dreamweaver atm
tired falcon
Outlaw stills goes dw
All potency sucks for outlaw so gi wins out
Except for crow
Cto*
balmy condor
pulsar sluice
what if you're kyrian 
tired falcon
That’s what my sims have been saying :/
balmy condor
what if you're kyrian <:pepeSus:783598759183122453>
Idk, I’m sure the soulbinds aren’t that far apart either for you guys
stuck tartan
i had dreamweaver for outlaw and niya for sin, but then I changed for some stupid reason lul
tired falcon
And when you get the trap thing from niya, it becomes a lot better
pulsar sluice
i mean pelagos mastery buff is good, kleia is more of a support
stuck tartan
i mean pelagos mastery buff is good, kleia is more of a support
change pelagos for niya, and kleia for dreamweaver and u have the same thing
does kleia give 2 potency dconduits?
shell canopy
Is there any preferred slot for our legendary? I have some Soul Ash over and want to switch over from Outlaw again. Didn't find it in the sticky.
pulsar sluice
at 28 kleia unlocks the second one
balmy condor
Is there any preferred slot for our legendary? I have some Soul Ash over and wan...
Legs for zoldyck
shell canopy
Legs for zoldyck
Thanks!
knotty shell
Sorry if this was asked before, do we think the 9% will put us where we need to be? =o
green belfry
check pins
knotty shell
Ty
green belfry
np
cosmic mica
oof what major conduits we dont wanna miss?
balmy condor
Wps/lethal
young hawk
green belfry
decent, yes.
sinful sentinel
Going to go sin for raid Tuesday for funsies
Still not a super huge fan of outlaw these days
Reliance on rtb procs just bugs the crap out of me
mental igloo
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
balmy condor
Not sure how much a reliance it really is when reroll logic is like 1%
But I also dislike it
mental igloo
I tend to tunnel vision my rtb more than anything else
Even like sub buff cool downs are easier to check and mentally keep track of
Rtb just fucks with my brain
candid shuttle
It's 1 button
fair storm
candid shuttle
And 1 wa
fair storm
Why didnt whispyr wrote this
candid shuttle
EZ
pulsar sluice
cause mystler the wow head dude
green belfry
^
balmy condor
But you should definitely trust mystler more than me
fair storm
So who copied who
balmy condor
Mystler is a giga theorycrafter
green belfry
2 people arrive at the same conclusion.
fair storm
But u spend 16 hours a day theorycrafting on discord
balmy condor
I theorycraft the fastest way to type “read the pins”
fair storm
But u wrote pins didnt u
balmy condor
I changed my keyboard layout specifically so I can just drag my finger across a row
fair storm
Lmao
balmy condor
Like a piano gliss
fair storm
Smart
green belfry
sadly read the pins contains 11 letters. Otherwise I would have said use all 10 fingers and press nearly simultaneously
green belfry
🧐 so much more to uncover
obtuse ruin
I read that it might be viable for raids but what about m+ after the buffs? any chance it can compete with outlaw?
onyx hemlock
Is that the secret to accessing more keybinds? 10 whole diguts ive neglected to use all this time . . .
distant cypress
prisma monolithBOT
balmy condor
Is that the secret to accessing more keybinds? 10 whole diguts ive neglected to ...
Shift helps
sinful sentinel
Which slot for zoldyacks? Wowhead says legs but I'm curious if there's nuch difference going with feet.
dapper marten
balmy condor
Which slot for zoldyacks? Wowhead says legs but I'm curious if there's nuch diff...
Legs generally but if your legs are good then there’s an argument for boots
balmy condor
True
sinful sentinel
Legs generally but if your legs are good then there’s an argument for boots
Got some 223 crit mastery legs and 190 boots. So prob going with boots then.
balmy condor
Yeh sounds reasonable
stuck tartan
imma end up remaking boots cause of that, i have no good boots yet
sinful sentinel
Yeah, I mainspec outlaw and am still using the damn world boe 190s
main forge
I got a 200 ilvl dagger out of ulduar... this 190 dagger has kept me going since week 1 though
not lucky one weapon drops at all
best 180k i ever spent on a BoE
sinful sentinel
Same. Damn bad luck with weapons. 2 200s for outlaw and the 190 boe still going strong for sub/sin
hollow escarp
I got a 200 ilvl dagger out of ulduar... this 190 dagger has kept me going since...
get 1400 and upgrade weapons to 207 🙂
in pvp that is
sinful island
do you use Vigor or Deeper Stratagem in raid encounters?
stuck tartan
stuck tartan
"Outlaw/Sub will still be preferred most likely, but sin will be viable"
kind cliff
"most likely" bro im asking for opinions here of my fellow ass players