We don’t cast ambush from stealth
#assassination
balmy condor
balmy condor
Because mutilate is better
strange python
why ambush does more dps doesnt it
stoic needle
no it doesn't
balmy condor
Well if it did
stoic needle
and mut will give you more combo points
balmy condor
I would tell you to cast ambush
stoic needle
its very unintuitive
balmy condor
It’s a little more complicated than that
But yeah
It’s a slight gain to not ambush from stealth
strange python
any other good tips
balmy condor
Don’t do what the top sin rogue does
stoic needle
lmao
balmy condor
Someone linked a log from him on hungering
And it was like cutting an onion in front of me
stoic needle
this makes me want to get geared up and take that spot 😛
strange python
you dont play sin tho right
balmy condor
I do not
That doesn’t mean I’m illiterate at sin, I still look for APL gains fairly regularly
Just nothing worth
stoic needle
i'm lucky that my raid will let me play whatever spec i want
spice spire
And it was like cutting an onion in front of me
Peen has learned from the absolute opener GOD Navi himself.
strange python
peen lol what
balmy condor
That’s his name
balmy condor
He also gets power infusions sometimes
Dude is sick because he’s out gearing the other 30 sin rogues, not because he’s actually sick
strange python
im only 184
stuck tartan
191 cause ulduar gave me like 3 haste versa pieces lol
spice spire
I mean even with the scuffed opener, he’s fine. At least he didn’t put the wrong poison on for the prog kill 😌
long solar
ok interest peaked. What's the reason not to ambush in stealth and mut instead?
spice spire
More combo points possible and higher damage
stuck tartan
2-4 cp vs 2-3 cp
balmy condor
It’s more cp, and more potential damage
long solar
ahh. fair enough, yeah seal fate benefits a lot from MA
so mut can be used as an opener for the rotation then right?
long solar
understood. thank you very much
balmy condor
Np
strange python
that’s ok i’m bad anyways any my ilvl is low
i tried following sub guides and i was still bad lol
balmy condor
For openers?
eternal herald
yes
balmy condor
With subterfuge you go garrote mutilate slice, with ma you go mutilate slice mutilate
eternal herald
with blindside would you prioritize ambush or mutilate based on how many cp you need?
balmy condor
You only cast free ambushes
eternal herald
right, but if i have 3/5 cp's and blindside procs, wouldn't you ambush so you don't overcap with mutilate?
eternal herald
or if shiv is up, shiv envenom?
balmy condor
If you have a free ambush, you use it in place of your next mutilate
If shiv is up, you cast
Shiv is on cooldown
Regardless of cp
eternal herald
if i have 2/5 cp's, blindside procs, i could mutilate to go for 5 cp right?
balmy condor
If you have a free ambush, you use it in place of your next mutilate
So in that case
You ambush
eternal herald
i gotcha
balmy condor
Yeah but even then, you’re not trying to force 5cp
eternal herald
I use FoK for 4+ mobs, garrote up to 3 mobs, rupture up to 4. Am i doing that right?
balmy condor
Fok on 3
You want to garrote with subterfuge, and rupture/CT otherwise
If things are gonna die, you switch to envenom
eternal herald
kk ty
oblique kiln
How does your opener change on a cleave fight, something like huntsman? Are we dotting everything then going into Vendetta vanish etc?
stoic needle
you'd want to get 2/3 garottes up during subterfuge, then slice. rupture the first target, then vendetta, and rupture the 2nd one afterwards
then go into shiv + envenom and vanish and whatnot
I feel like it's a loss to hold vendetta too long but I could be wrong
real bay
you dont want to vanish too early due to subt
stoic needle
that's a good point. i guess you vanish after the first garotte starts to fall off then
stone locust
!Bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
strange python
you'd want to get 2/3 garottes up during subterfuge, then slice. rupture the fir...
are you talking about doing multiple short rotations on in group pulls
stoic needle
its pretty much the same for both. If you're talented into crimson tempest you'd CT immediately after the first 3 garottes
in aoe situations in general, your energy regeneration is directly linked to how many bleeds you can keep up on multiple targets. sadly CT doesn't give us energy through VE, but you want to rupture and garotte as much as you can
strange python
my game IQ is just not good for this level of strategy lol
stoic needle
practice makes perfect tbh
stoic needle
hahaha
idk, you'll just notice that you will be waiting on energy quite a bit if you don't dot up as many things as you can
if you don't already have a good set of nameplates set up to track the durations of your dots on multiple targets I recommend plater
strange python
so from stealth i do a combo on 1 target then start another combo on a new target then another and repeat
balmy condor
its pretty much the same for both. If you're talented into crimson tempest you'd...
3 garrotes, a fok, then a CT
stoic needle
ty whispyr 🙂 i always forget to write the fok in there
torpid spoke
stoic needle
so from stealth i do a combo on 1 target then start another combo on a new targe...
from stealth you want to open with garotte cuz of subterfuge. but after that yes, you want to rupture one target, then build cp with FoK, rupture a new target, and so on. some targets have low HP and won't live the full duration of rupture, so you want to save them for after you have a few ruptures up and envenom them instead
subtle imp
i miss fok meme
deft sparrow
how's assa doing after getting some gear?
stable stratus
better than outlaw at least
deft sparrow
maybe it d scaled better , oh well
balmy condor
sin doesn't scale better or worse than anything else
that's a very common bullshit misconception
balmy condor
better than outlaw at least
outlaw is the current best rogue spec in pve though 
stable stratus
outlaw is the current best rogue spec in pve though <:hmm:671849797119901710>
yeah but its bad with daggers
deft sparrow
i think he was sracastic about outlaw doing bad
balmy condor
......
I'm lost
they need a slow mainhand to cast spells, yes
and they use a dagger offhand
who was talking about daggers in the first place though
royal lantern
The line bettwen sarcasm and people that really spread missinformation is really really thin
deft sparrow
well then, let me confirm that outlaw is pretty suberb in pve atm
royal lantern
It is
balmy condor
its a good spec, yeah
royal lantern
If you want too just play 1spec, its outlaw atm
stable stratus
well then, let me confirm that outlaw is pretty suberb in pve atm
too many buttons assasin is simpler and its better if u have 2 daggers
balmy condor
WHO IS TALKING ABOUT DAGGERS
royal lantern
Better for the far majority if fights this tier, and sub only does slightly more pure st
deft sparrow
too many buttons assasin is simpler and its better if u have 2 daggers
you're married with a dagger? 😄
stable stratus
you're married with a dagger? 😄
no but i have 2
balmy condor
cool
stable stratus
and no slow hand
deft sparrow
yeah but its only one click to switch weapon in main hand?
stable stratus
so sub or assasin is better but sub have too many buttons
balmy condor
no one cares about the buttons
its just statistically better
your inability to hit buttons doesn't change that fact
stable stratus
your inability to hit buttons doesn't change that fact
how is that if u didnt hit a shadowstrike u dps dont fall ? Oo
balmy condor
there's a difference between a spec being bad
and a player being bad at a spec
I can't play fire mage
that doesn't mean fire mage is bad
fire mage is a great spec
similarly, outlaw and sub are much better specs than assassination
but if you can't play those specs, you obviously will do bad
strange python
i was good at outlaw in bfa but i dont have 2 swords
balmy condor
good thing you only need 1
sleek otter
stable stratus
wtf
stable stratus
how did u do that lol
balmy condor
stable stratus
never did torghast on ass
balmy condor
also sub evisc's are doing like 5-6mil easily
sleek otter
I didnt get vein rippers
balmy condor
sad life
sleek otter
that a specific covenant?
sleek otter
Ohhhhhhhhhhh o.O
drifting cloud
wait how do you get evisc up to 5mil no way
I had everything and it only crit for like 1.5
balmy condor
get good
drifting cloud
20cp, shadowstep, dark shadows, nightstalker, 150%mastery and like 4 traits
balmy condor
ask hacha
somber fjord
should i be running Dreamweaver over Niya this week because she has two potency conduits available to her
balmy condor
no
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
strange python
!bis
cosmic trail
Question, how do yall go about getting gear once you hit 60? Like do you get full m0 gear before going up in keys or how should I go about it
stoic needle
you can do rbgs to get a full set of 184 pvp gear, also you can do your covenant campaign and then upgrade those items with anima to ilvl 197
pvp is good for getting some decent ilvl weapons and trinkets quickly
stoic needle
you can buy it again from a vendor for 100 anima each or item restore
strange python
i did rbgs to 171 and then m0 and m2
still do rbgs and use the honor and conquest
stoic needle
yeah conquest gear is rly good
sin does solid burst in low rank 2v2s so dont be afraid of arenas either
light kestrel
Anyone else having problems with the macabre trinket? Sometimes the ghosts just... don't spawn
stoic needle
does the bonus mutilate damage from the maim mangle conduit make doomblade's dot also do more damage?
balmy condor
does the bonus mutilate damage from the maim mangle conduit make doomblade's dot...
Not sure tbh, does the damage from main mangle show up on its own? Or is it just an increased mut damage. If it’s the later, might be worth checking. If it’s the former, no. Regardless maim suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks
stoic needle
it seems to be just flat increased mut damage
balmy condor
Then it might yeh
cosmic trail
Do yall have energy issues in pve?
balmy condor
Yes, that’s the life of sin
You drown in energy, but can’t generate cp when you’re in aoe
But in single target you could drown in cp if you had energy
cosmic trail
cosmic trail
In the talents pin when it says 0 that means its free to choose whatever?
robust pine
yes, it's usually for survival abilities that doesn' affect your DPS
cosmic trail
2-2-3-0-0-2-1 (2 with higher ranks in Poisoned Katar, 3 in more aoe heavy dungeons) - M+
2-2-2-0-0-2-3 - Sustained AoE
for this part whats the diff
I choose part 3 with more aoe dungeons and 2 with higher conduit rank?
I'm not understanding the M+ talents. Which talent do i swap out if I have poisoned katar and more aoe dungeons?
robust pine
don't really understand you. For more aoe dungeone you take CT, because it's pure AOE talent
iron orchid
You switch between the three talents in the last row, the "2 with higher ranks in Poisoned Katar" is there to tell you to go for the talent that boosts your FoK, because it may synergize well with the Poisoned Katar conduit. Anyways, I consider CT or poison bomb to be more viable than this combination in almost every dungeon situation.
little sparrow
Not sure if this is helpful, but since I personally found Twisting Corridors Layer 1 challenging as Assassination, I thought the following details screen capture might be useful for folks as I tried to focus on boss based Oberlon anima powers (of course mileage will vary based on drop RNG).
Key Oberlon Armanents which dropped for me: Jack of All Trades, First Steps, The Last Blade and the key defensives were Restless Onyx Geodes and Scroll of Forewarning. I was surprised to see that Red Ink did very little.
From the L1F18 final Boss Arch Suppressor Laguas
cosmic trail
Question if a boss cant be stunned by kidney, if you're using internal bleeding do you still get the bleed for it even tho the boss isnt stunned?
daring pecan
no
cosmic trail
Is it possible to put MoD and kidney all on 1 macro?
quasi ledge
Yes, wouldn't recommend it though. Very rare situation it'll be useful, unless you have your normal binds and then a 3rd for the macro
cosmic trail
Yeah It'll be a seperate bind
#showtooltip Marked for Death
/cast [@target] Marked for Death
/cast [@target] kidney Shot
this is how I have it set is that right?
quasi ledge
You don't need the [@target] part at all, but it should work yeah
daring pecan
you absolutely don't need to put [@target] damn, too slow
cosmic trail
for it to cast it right after another do I have to double press it or hold it?
daring pecan
double press, which is why a macro like that is utterly pointless
just press your keybinds
quasi ledge
MfD is off global, assumed it'll be a single click but maybe it doesn't work that way. Never tried or used the macro before
daring pecan
I just wouldn't make macros like that anyway, there's no situations where that is better over having mfd and kidney bound separately
cosmic trail
Is there any useful mutilate macros? Just curious cuz I seen one on youtube back in bfa days but idk if it stills works for SL
vivid bone
there's no such thing
quasi ledge
The only Mutilate macro I have is when doing arena and pressing Mutilate will instantly target the Night Fae pod :p
daring pecan
I can't wait for the day where that will fuck you over because you can't finish someone else with pod nearby 
quasi ledge
I take it off outside of arena. But I did forget on Xy'mox and a Mage died and I kept targeting his pod accidently 😂
cosmic trail
daring pecan
lmaooo
"sorry, can't damage boss atm, need to open spellbook real quick"
I'd just put it on poisoned knife or some shit that doesn't matter
quasi ledge
Definitely a stay quiet moment
daring pecan
gentle gyro
aight, after abandoning my rogue 2 weeks in because finding groups was a pain i dusted him off a bit. i get it right that ilvl is king?
as in, i don't need to equip lower ilvl pieces to push haste up, yes?
pin only says "prio haste", so i wasn't quite sure
spice spire
Prio haste on secondary, but agility is king atm. So overall, yeah prio ilvl, but just sim stuff as it gets higher up. You’ll randomly have a 184 piece outdo a 200.
stoic needle
I've never seen a 184 sim higher then a 200 but yeah
spice spire
Trinkets 
iron orchid
It's kinda good, but may not always reach the values it sims
gentle gyro
was about to remark that it sims high but in practice it apparently isn't as good
iron orchid
Because the sim doesn't take into account when the trinket procs something that is not a stat or damage proc i think, so if you happen to regenerate the mana of your healer, you are kinda fucked up
gentle gyro
actually went in DoS for a conduit, and got the trinket i ran that place 10 times for on my hunter
sad life
dense cedar
i mean
it giving ur healer mana isn't a bad thing tbh
the only bad procs are threat and healing
gentle gyro
when does it generate threat, when your tank is low?
dense cedar
can't remember exactly
i recall reading thato ne of the procs is some weird threat thing
south drum
I used the healing to save my ass more than once so that isn't too bad either
gentle gyro
does it share a cd with medallion?
south drum
No but there is the 30 sec CD between "on use" trinket
gentle gyro
yes sure but having two medallions is actually pretty nuts, no?
south drum
I'm not totally sure on the logic on it but you could easily proc on of the other effects instead of the CC
gentle gyro
the trinket uses an effect based on what conditions are met
pretty sure it gives you the medallion effect 100% of the time if you are cc'd
south drum
Yeah but in what order
daring pecan
pretty sure the order is listed on wowhead
might not be 100% accurate but accurate enough
south drum
In that case it would heal and give mana before it would break CC
daring pecan
just know that literally no other conditions have to be met for you to gain stats
gentle gyro
gotta win a brawl anyways, I'll try to test it
gentle gyro
k, using it as a cleanse puts the medallion also on a 2min cd
toxic tusk
Question for you guys. How does the damage from Crimson Tempest compare to poison pool? Venom pool? I can’t remember.
I think the pool does less damage but is available more often making it more viable, but I wasn’t sure in terms of raiding. An extra bleed sounds nice.
toxic tusk
There it is. Pool’s closed.
toxic tusk
Yeah. I feel like CT on trash pulls in highnmyrhic would be decent eh?
stuck tartan
poison bomb is so nerfed its just like 1k and its RNG
yeah, CT on 3+ pulls is better
toxic tusk
It’s 2.4 or something over 2 seconds, but procs from rupture and envenom which get used a ton.
Another question, and this is totally me looking for either pity or praise, but I’ve recently started looking at parse information to try and figure it out.
My parses are usually blue or purple which I know is decent, but I’m being out dps’d by people that are sometimes hitting green/gray. Is that me messing up, a class problem or?
toxic tusk
I know as well that certain fights are obviously built towards aoe, but I’m a bit discouraged to be honest.
stuck tartan
Sin is decent at best on raids right now, but M+ is trash
too small numbers on our bleeds
toxic tusk
That makes it a bit better at least.
It has to be noticed eh? Rogues are a dead class by the looks of trade chat and groups I join.
I don’t know much about the technical parts of the game, like how they balance stuff.
stuck tartan
outlaw and sub is fine tbh
toxic tusk
Yeah. I’ve got the legendary for outlaw as well... but my character has been an assassin for years now.
And a part of me doesn’t want to change him to fit the Meta. But then I can’t really complain.
stuck tartan
Kinda same, only in some tiers I change to outlaw or sub (depends if I hate how they're played that tier)
but I've been sin since start of Legion till now
Cause Draenor made me go sub on last tier
toxic tusk
I get attached to the idea of a character I find.
Yeah, it’s been a while for me. I think BC.
But I never bothered to like, learn. If that makes sense.
stuck tartan
BC is when i started too
toxic tusk
I always pulled good numbers and new my rotation, so I didn’t bother trying to get more in depth. And now I’m getting rocked.
Knew my rotation*
I’ve got ADHD out the ass so I worry about little dumb stuff. Like, if I have 5 combo points and shiv is ready, is it better to shiv anyway for the five point envenom, or envenom first and then shiv, so a combo point isn’t wasted.
stuck tartan
better to shiv anyway
The more envenoms u get on shiv window, the better
i just wait to use it after refreshing snd or rupture, before a envenom
or sepsis-shiv cause im NF
tender folio
Make assa great again
strange python
Yeah sin is just in a bad spot. Whole spec needs a rework
Build is awful in pvp too unless you go the MA envelop cheese build, which is meme tier itself
Envenom
tender folio
They should just make a leggo with that SS trait from BFA
And we should be in a decent place then
ornate dawn
Or just make that baseline when you Garotte from stealth
spice spire
Or they could make it a talent on a pretty weak row .
I mean any of it works. SS was a decent bit of borrowed power
wicked current
Venoumous Wounds gives energy only for the bleeds and poisons in the tooltip or gives energy also from Internal Bleeding talent and the bleed from the legendary Doomblade ?
quasi ledge
You get energy from Internal Bleeding. If you change to it then the tooltip updates, nothing else is affected though
stoic needle
https://i.imgur.com/ubjMmmx.png
It's not a meme trinket at all if you know what it's gonna do before you press the button!
Also sin is barely playable in keys. You have to work your ass off and play pretty much perfectly to keep up
While sub just presses 2 buttons and does 6k on aoe smh
vestal wren
i don't think complaining about subtlety in aoe is any relevant
stoic needle
The effort to reward ratio is off
We should be doing similar amounts of damage for multidotting everything
vestal wren
one of the reasons sub is so bad on wcl is that the aoe/cleave is terribly weak. So complaining about it is rly questionable
stoic needle
And yet it's still better than sin's
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
stoic needle
What changed in the last 3 weeks to get these numbers because I swear they were very different at the start of the expansion
vestal wren
there was no change
sin was stronger on cleave even before the 5% buff
subtlety is rly only strong on sustained high target aoe
and thats a situation that you almost never have
vestal wren
and with strong i mean more "its on par or slightly ahead of outlaw"
the main problam with sin is tuning, it just does not do enough pure st
this is why its below sub/outlaw in dungeon slice and on patchwork
stoic needle
Oh I didn't realize the single target was bringing down the dungeon Slice sim
vestal wren
~ 1/3 of the dungeon slice sim is a single target fight
stoic needle
Then where did the "10% behind in ST, roughly 25% behind in AOE" thing come from? Or was that in comparison to OL
sick kestrel
Is poison bomb best for aoe?
balmy condor
That was in comparison to outlaw and dungeonslice
balmy condor
Is poison bomb best for aoe?
CT usually
vestal wren
to be fair
i think outlaw is one of the (if not) highest simming specs in dungeon slice
so i am not sure if saying "my aoe is terrible because its not on par with outlaw" is the most reliable comparison
but opinions differ, i think seli is also saying that assassinations aoe is lacking
halcyon grail
Is there anything of Sin that ISNT lacking?
balmy condor
Cleave isn’t all that bad
stoic needle
That was in comparison to outlaw and dungeonslice
I see, I guess I misinterpreted that then
vestal wren
Is there anything of Sin that ISNT lacking?
people usually try to find issues elsewhere when the problem often just comes down to pure number tuning
stoic needle
But yeah it kinda tracks with the results I've been having doing m+, doing way more damage than I thought I was supposed to be doing
vestal wren
ofc you could always "be better"
any spec in the game would be better with higher burst damage, a insane execte, more immunities, ....
halcyon grail
For sure, @vestal wren though, it also just feels kinds gross to play even compared to legion Sin and early BFA.
vestal wren
the only diffrence is that you don't have lucid or corruption
balmy condor
That’s because legion sin and early bfa was much stronger xD
vestal wren
there is no big rotational change or anything
halcyon grail
Which is a shame because I adore blood and poison over UwU purple shurikens.
gentle gyro
i mean, i play sin since like wrath and Legion was the height of the spec
it's not always a numbers thing
vestal wren
the biggest diffrence is that assassination was for 2 xpacs now always the best tuned rogue spec
and thats not the case now
gentle gyro
SnD can go to hell, give me back my enegery regen talent and work more with the theme of poisons
sick kestrel
Hey guys what are your go to level 50 talents for m+?
vestal wren
i don't like assassination being undertuned like it is rn tho. I wish it would get another buff
balmy condor
Hey guys what are your go to level 50 talents for m+?
CT still
stoic needle
I personally would like to see the damage profile shifted to be more about dots and less about melee but the spec feels okay to play
sick kestrel
Cool, do you always use it at 5 combo points? And do you leave it for the duration of the bleed rather than spam it
stoic needle
Especially with a decent amount of haste
balmy condor
4-5 like every other finisher
And yes, you leave it for the bleed
The bleed is a very short duration
So it’s still kinda spam-able
halcyon grail
@sick kestrel you're still gonna wanna prioritize multi dotting rupture and garrote
And CT/envenom when you have nothing else to do
(rare as that is there's always lots to do.)
balmy condor
CT takes a higher priority than rupture in aoe
halcyon grail
Greater than 4 targets yes?
balmy condor
On 3 as well
halcyon grail
Even in still 3?
balmy condor
You CT > rup in 3
vestal wren
I personally would like to see the damage profile shifted to be more about dots ...
melee attacks become less important over time it was the same in bfa
its the same with secondary stats, they will get up in impact over the course of the xpac
stoic needle
Ya I was just thinking about how mastery might become more valuable over time
balmy condor
Not sure about that one
vestal wren
there are just thinks people tent to forget
stoic needle
Maybe more valuable is the wrong word, but it'll get the damage spread more like how I want to see
vestal wren
e.g. to go further into stats that stats you don't use/have a lot a lot become a lot stronger
obsidian willow
Is there a BIS to put zoldycks in?
balmy condor
Legs
obsidian willow
How much haste is “good enough” for sin this patch?
sick kestrel
Thanks for the advice. For multi dotting ect is it good to just tab target/click or are there any helpful addons or frames
stoic needle
Until your sims tell you that other stats are better
balmy condor
^
stoic needle
My sims told me to gem for haste until I got to 19% now they tell me to gem for crit
But it could be different if you have more crit
balmy condor
Thanks for the advice. For multi dotting ect is it good to just tab target/click...
Clicking nameplates is pretty good
obsidian willow
My sims told me to gem for haste until I got to 19% now they tell me to gem for ...
How much haste is that?
stoic needle
Mouseover on nameplates is nice
Idk the rating but I can tell you soon I'm about to get on my computer
balmy condor
When I was simming gear combinations, it usually wanted haste in every slot until like 210 ilvl, and then it picked up some crit/vers
Obviously super rough
dense cedar
i think rogue is cool
obsidian willow
Visually boring but yes, cool
dense cedar
:(
all the fun specs have mostly no real visuals
- all rogues
- aff lock
all of them
stoic needle
They made all of these new blood particle effects for the venthyr raid and we don't get any of them for our bleeds 
obsidian willow
And all of our covenants abilities are visually ehh
stoic needle
Meanwhile: faeline stomp exists
dense cedar
tbh i kidna zone out the middle of my screen
so kinda forget what anything looks like
stoic needle
During a raid sure but out in solo content it would be cool
high wagon
is there a way to Sim sin dps without having legendaries and stuff but adding that into the sim on raidbots?
balmy condor
Yes, you can add legendaries using a button at the top of top gear
high wagon
ty
dense cedar
Whispyr always helpful
dense cedar
easy solution: pretend they don't exist
topaz saffron
Sin main holding on for dear life rn
dense cedar
it can be fun to play other things
topaz saffron
I'm dipping my toes back into outlaw as a backup
daring pecan
daring pecan
Whisp is rolling enh to pad his rogue friends 
topaz saffron
I'm holding out hope for the buffs we deserve (Who am I kidding 🙃)
dense cedar
the chance of buffs in the next patch are like
50/50
there will be buffs
or there won't
dense cedar
Whispyr is sub
daring pecan
I went off enough about design in the sub channel today, not gonna do more today
oh my 
dense cedar
they gonna rework Sin into Bleed Pirate next patch
shrewd pivot
whats wrong with sin
dense cedar
ur bleed ticks have a change of giving u a random buff for .5 of a second
Undertuned @shrewd pivot
shrewd pivot
no ramp up?
dense cedar
balmy condor
Yeah, it’s still the same old sin
dense cedar
i think it'd be better if there was something fundementaly broken with it
cos then it'd get more attention lol
balmy condor
It just is one of the weakest tuned specs in the game right now
Gameplay wise it’s fine
dense cedar
it just being subpar dmg means Blizz can ignore it for free
winged basin
was assass slow at the end of bfa when we had expendient, dudes try to tell me we were 39 apm and slower then dirt
I do not remember being slow
winged basin
I just meant if anyone knew what the actual apm was, cause I played the fuck outta sin and barely had downtime
This tank just joined our guild telling me sin was way too slow last xpac lmao
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
halcyon grail
98% haste unbuffed is super slow.
topaz saffron
Fortunately my raid team doesn't care at all what spec you play which is a saving grace
winged basin
Can’t tell if that’s sarcasm or not lol
halcyon grail
It's sarcasm, nyalotha sin was ludicrous.
main forge
The haste really just made our dots tick faster and gave us insane amounts of energy.... but without expedient it was definitely more "methodical"... I wouldn't call it slow, but it wasn't high APM
winged basin
I never felt slow, felt like I was consistently always casting
halcyon grail
I think there where moments my haste broke 250% sans lust
winged basin
Idk, tired of arguing with people who think they know what they are talking about lol
main forge
especially if you had less than 18-20% haste naturally
balmy condor
@winged basin sin was 61apm with expedients, and dropped to 40 in prepatch without blindside, 45 with blindside
halcyon grail
Everyone thinks they know what they're talking about they watched the limit echo world first race and lived vicariously through them.
Their opinions are facts bro
strange python
I like how sin has a great value master assassin talent
stoic needle
Poison bomb is so disappointing lol
stoic needle
I mean you got a 69 parse that's not really sin's fault lol
You're ilvl 189 tho
You're fighting an uphill battle from the beginning
gentle gyro
was more about ilvl parse
not overall parse
i know I will never beat him in "normal" dps
balmy condor
well a 93 in ilvl parse means your probably top 2
such is the way of sin
ilvl parse is already meaningless as fuck
but when a spec is so underplayed as sin
that number is actually meaningless
gentle gyro
that was the point
i have complete versa / crit gear and master assassin legy and still get such high ilvl parses
aka no one plays this
balmy condor
ye
marble bear
does that mean we're winning?
balmy condor
no that means no one plays sin cause its a bad spec
fleet whale
it's good in torghast though
high wagon
so based on pins Zoldyak better if doing M+ and raiding compared to dashing only good in raids?
gentle gyro
at least i can craft dashing on something that doesn't cost 20k rank 1
meanwhile i can buy rank 4 cloth legys for my priest for less
stuck tartan
im afraid to see leather legys in my server's ah
stoic needle
I mean it takes like 3 hours tops to skin the mats for a lvl 4
Including leveling skinning 1-150
stuck tartan
how much are u willing to pay for a rank 4
stuck tartan
makes sense
stoic needle
Druid is the play
stuck tartan
something tank that pulls everything and doesnt care lol
stoic needle
Park em at lvl 50 and abuse the low level scaling
Literally pull 25 butterflies at a time
stuck tartan
is it worth it? at lvl 50 u still farm the good leather?
stoic needle
Moonfire to pull, swipe to keep in combat, convoke to kill
Yup
The only thing that changes the drop rates of leather is your skinning skill
stuck tartan
Then maybe I'll do that lol
stoic needle
And a lvl 50 can max it
stuck tartan
then by time its gonna be 150 so yeah
oh great
then im gonna do that for sure lmao
good thing I still have my druid at orgrimmar
just gotta block exp and go to shadowlands then
any good spot to do that?
bastion?
stoic needle
There's one in every zone
Etherwyrms next to aspirant's rest in bastion
For the world quest drought conditions
Gorm and butterflies all over ardenweald
The neonatal bonedflayers(2 headed flying bony things) next to ToP in maldraxxus'
Literally anywhere with beasts
That's why it's so good
topaz saffron
During Subterfuge Windows after I cast Garrote, do I want to be casting Ambush or Mutilate?
stoic needle
If you're too lazy to do that I have no sympathy for you when you whine about ah prices lol
Mutilate
stuck tartan
During Subterfuge Windows after I cast Garrote, do I want to be casting Ambush o...
mutilate
topaz saffron
Ambush only for blindside procs?
stuck tartan
Exactly
topaz saffron
Ty x
gentle gyro
wait really? why?
stoic needle
Cuz ambush sucks
Mutilate out of stealth gives you more combo points because of seal fate
And an extra chance to proc poison
stuck tartan
Same energy, extra chance to proc poison, and extra CP if u're lucky enough
gentle gyro
seal fate doesn't apply to ambush?
stoic needle
Seal fate is one extra cp per crit
gentle gyro
ah ok, i see
stoic needle
Mutilate is 2 hits because it hits with both weapons
gentle gyro
just surprised cause ambush deals double the base damage
stoic needle
Yep but the tooltip for mutilate is slightly misleading
It's 900 something x 2 for both weapons
Ambush only uses your MH
stuck tartan
and ambush is like...90% ap or something like that
balmy condor
mutilate tooltip is 35% ap + (35% ap *0.5)
stoic needle
Yeah you're right
balmy condor
and that's congealed into one number
hollow hawk
all damage increased by 8% poggers
eternal vortex
stuck tartan
8% wow
spice spire
Proggers
stuck tartan
stoic needle
WHAT
rustic thunder
that's a lot
spice spire
We’ve done it boys
stuck tartan
IT'S HAPPENING
spice spire
We sandbagged to become the OP class
eternal vortex
are we back? 
spice spire
We’re probably just going to be in line with middle, with a much higher upside, in all seriousness
raw tusk
is this the time lol
balmy condor
With the 8% aura buff we're getting coming this reset (Jan 12th for NA), this puts sin into a viable spot for raids/m+. Outlaw/Sub will still be preferred most likely, but sin will be viable. Our niche of execute with zoldyck/blindside, cleave, ease of play, and damage during downtime makes us playable.
This culminates to 13%, which was the sweet spot most TC's and CF's have been pushing for.
Edit: This does not change our stat weights in a major way, nor the legendary, conduit, covenant, or gear choices you will make. This is simply more damage.
spice spire
W
heavy vessel
8% aura buff omg!
timber pawn
Hhhmmmm could 8% buff make sin competitive?
fresh ginkgo
stuck tartan
it makes him a viable spot for sure
stone epoch
fuckin’ nut
strange python
how does aura buff effect sin
vocal cloud
B U F F E D
stuck tartan
we deal more damage
balmy condor
guys
stuck tartan
the end
balmy condor
cmon
stone epoch
Just means we do a flat 8% more
balmy condor
I literally wrote a pin as fast as I could
spice spire
It wasn’t even check the pin, it was check two posts above you
strange python
Just means we do a flat 8% more
but what about sin has anything to do with auras
spice spire
It wasn’t even check the pin, it was check two posts above you
balmy condor
but what about sin has anything to do with auras
aura buff is all damage the spec does
stoic needle
Imagine not having lvl 3 zoldyck already 
balmy condor
each spec has a hidden number that buffs the damage it does
stone epoch
Nothing, just a term they use. Nothing like the spell type “aura”
fleet whale
so is it just 3 to 8
spice spire
but what about sin has anything to do with auras
An aura buff is for all damage output on a spec. It’s a blanketing 8% dps buff
fleet whale
or is it another 8 added on?
vital haven
its 13 total
stuck tartan
well time to make zoldyck 3
timber pawn
It's not an Aura it's a broad 8% dmg buff
stuck tartan
or is it another 8 added on?
another 8
vital haven
at least thats how i understand it
fleet whale
oh shit
strange python
so sin is getting an 8% buff overall
fleet whale
Sin rising
lucid ruin
Oh shit sin buffs
fleet whale
sub is dead
stuck tartan
Long live the SinKing
lucid ruin
I can play my rogue again
half fable
Sin > Outlaw now?
stoic needle
No
halcyon zealot
no
half fable
pog
fleet whale
prolly over sub though
balmy condor
read
half fable
thank god
hollow hawk
no
balmy condor
read pins
fleet whale
for progress anyway, unless if you love sub
limber lion
That's fucking PogChamp
fleet whale
i think sin could be preferred
grizzled trail
I highly doubt it will be above either sub or outlaw. But viable is good
spice spire
stoic needle
It was already above sub in aoe/cleace
eternal vortex
i might be dumb but can anyone tell me what TC and CF means please
lucid ruin
Playable is fine enough idgaf if it's not the top
balmy condor
theorycrafters/community figures @eternal vortex
timber pawn
I don't think 8% gonna put sin over sub but might make it competitive
eternal vortex
thank you sir!
royal lantern
WHISPR
royal lantern
WHATS THE BEST COVENANT LEGENDARY RACE AND CREDITCARD NUMBER FOR SIN????
full tide
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
vital haven
sin channel rn 📈
tawny shell
It happened 
lucid ruin
stoic needle
Is a raw % damage buff enough to change the bis list?
carmine dawn
hey guys im here for the sin buffs?
kind matrix
balmy condor
most people try to target the items
which isn't what that's for
bis lists show trends in stats
and theoretical limits
stoic needle
I see
stuck tartan
still haste right
weak ore
balmy condor
HEY GUYS IM A DH MAIN BUT IVE BEEN PLAYING SUB CAUSE ITS OP AND NOW SIN BUFF DO WE PLAY SIN IS SIN GOOD CAN YOU PLAY SIN CAN YOU REVIEW MY SIN LOG CAN YOU SIM MY CHAR CAN YOU TELL ME IF WE AMBUSH CAN YOU COOK MY RAMEN CAN YOU VACUUM MY HOUSE CAN YOU WALK MY DOG CAN YOU
stoic needle
Where I come from. The dark places. The 'classic'.... Bis lists are just lists of items with no dps numbers attached
hollow hawk
nah we go intellect now
stuck tartan
HEY GUYS IM A DH MAIN BUT IVE BEEN PLAYING SUB CAUSE ITS OP AND NOW SIN BUFF DO ...
can you cook my ramen
frigid kestrel
IM Back What I Miss??? 
stuck tartan
8% buff
mortal pike
are we gamin now?
tawny shell
Anyone else have full crit vers and only 4% haste 
balmy condor
exact reason
real bay
bois we back
stuck tartan
real bay
xxxd
balmy condor
this reason specifically
balmy condor
THIS REASON
flint cove
balmy condor
THIS IS WHY
royal lantern
@balmy condor
balmy condor
PINS EXIST
stoic needle
You can go ahead on back to the outlaw channel with that nonsense
frigid kestrel
I was legit joking cause this the most i seen Sin active since Pre-Patch
carmine dawn
8% will put it above sub for sure. ive already done the math
stuck tartan
the math of "fuck sub i wanna play sin"?
royal lantern
Anyone else have full crit vers and only 4% haste <:KEKW:624467585488125952>
i mean
outlaws where stacking haste and vers
fleet thorn
maff!
royal lantern
so its no big switch lel
real bay
just when i got a fucking 226 wep for outlaw
stuck tartan
Understandable, have a nice day
steep hamlet
is that 8% putting assa on the map?
stoic needle
🙏
carmine dawn
bring back red whispyr
tiny ember
can assa use a dagger main hand and axe in offhand?
carmine dawn
we need the community to know
stuck tartan
can assa use a dagger main hand and axe in offhand?
never
balmy condor
can assa use a dagger main hand and axe in offhand?
no
real bay
2 daggers only
steep hamlet
pin this
tiny ember
FUCK me
hollow hawk
When will blizzard do the chad move and just turn sub into a healing spec and let sin be the chad single target and outlaw be the chad aoe
tawny barn
assa buff boys, we did it
nimble tartan
hey outlaw main here, should i swap sin now
true rapids
outlaw needs to be dodge tank
old thistle
time for all the sub fotms to reroll
obtuse anvil
Sin chat is moving at warp speed now
balmy condor
@shrewd night wtb demotion so I can be with my red brethren once again 
digital sonnet
Sub main ready to swap to Sin howdy boys
hollow hawk
wait like atleast an hour before deciding to re-roll anything
tawny barn
8% still not enough to make it viable for mythic plus
ornate raptor
What Lego to craft for sin coming buffs now for raiding st
meager yacht
Nothing like crafting a 3rd legendary to 225....
balmy condor
this is what pins are guides are for guys
fleet whale
eh, it will be better in M+ now though depending on how much you pull
tiny ember
When will blizzard do the chad move and just turn sub into a healing spec and le...
maybe I'm a healer at heart
stoic needle
Sub main ready to swap to Sin howdy boys
WHERE WERE YOU WEEKS AGO WHEN WE WERE THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL
main tundra
blizzard always buff this spec to be the best rogue spec its so boring
stoic needle
8% still not enough to make it viable for mythic plus
Wrong
royal lantern
WHERE WERE YOU WEEKS AGO WHEN WE WERE THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL
i was doing progress raiding allright, same as whisp
fickle spindle
i played sin in wotlk naxx so im an OG sin player
main tundra
sub good for a few weeks just like bfa now it's just gonna get dumpstered by assa buffs after assa buffs
royal lantern
TIME TOO GET A DAGGER AGAIN
verbal mantle
protect swamp 
shut garnet
assa good again? 
tawny barn
i was hoping some talent rework
real bay
atleast i got 213 and 207 daggors
knotty bear
RIP comfy chat 
rustic thunder
hey guys what's the stat priority and best slot for leggo for assassination? 
storm forum
tfw you have rank 3 of 2 sub legos and nothing for sin cause you thought sin wouldn't get buffed until the next tier 
true rapids
time to start re-gearing all my vers/crit gear is useless now!
frail fossil
so hmm
balmy condor
vers/crit is not useless
ornate raptor
How much haste you reckon we will need?
balmy condor
and you will still want ilvl
balmy condor
I will beat all your asses
true rapids
im mostly memeing
rustic thunder
shut garnet
yo @balmy condor is assa new best melee now
true rapids
just my current gear has very little haste
shut garnet
rustic thunder
how is sin m+ compared to sub????
cerulean walrus
@balmy condor Sin best spec now? 
sweet zealot
is 8% to everything such a big deal?
balmy condor
how is sin m+ compared to sub????
we don't know yet
frail fossil
BRO THIS CHAT
balmy condor
is 8% to everything such a big deal?
yes, that's like 500 dps lmao
rustic thunder
the rogues have exploded
balmy condor
at least on bis lists
raw tusk
ive been an outlaw main but always like sin so looks like it time for farm some daggers lol
harsh sphinx
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
tiny ember
I have awoken and crave violance
obtuse anvil
Whispyr should I take uh... fuck, whatever the sin equivalent of vigor is?
nimble tartan
sin best spec sludgefist now
digital sonnet
WHERE WERE YOU WEEKS AGO WHEN WE WERE THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL
STARTED FROM THE SUB NOW WE HERE
vivid shuttle
theres a lot of sub colors in here...
silent linden
Omg, are we viable again. I think I am gonna cry a little
hollow hawk
sin can finally stop having their top damage on warcraft logs be at fucking 500+ compared to the other specs
granite bramble
Im just here to watch everyone Lose their shit
frail fossil
WHICH SLOT ON ZOLDYCK I AM NEW TO THE GAME
digital sonnet
Im here for the memes
fleet whale
pants
tiny ember
I WAS HERE
real bay
legs brother
frail fossil
let's go zoldyck gamer
tawny barn
dude the slots for legos really doesnt matter
meager yacht
I saw the pin but for someone doing both raiding and M+, what’s the best legendary
raven egret
guys what button is shadow dance on sin?!!?!??!111
tawny barn
calm ur tits
stuck tartan
how did u remove roles
raw tusk
lmao @raven egret
raven egret
time to remove sub role
royal lantern
people that talk about stats
raven egret
thank bliz gods
jovial spear
Will assa become viable with the 8% boost?
ornate raptor
Zoldyck better then dashin for ST?
royal lantern
you realise that in this expac its ilvl>>>>>>>>>everythign else right?
stoic needle
Type !subtlety in #bot-spam to remove the subtlety role
balmy condor
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
royal lantern
like, you dont care if the 8ilvl upgrade is mastery vers or haste/crit
stuck tartan
lmaooo
stoic needle
Pin that
royal lantern
you still take the 8ilvl upgrade
tawny barn
so ur close to il 226 on all slots then?
earnest hedge
is this 8% buff enough to make us relevant again
royal lantern
love and strenght too whisp
stoic needle
let's go zoldyck gamer
Imagine not having lvl3 zoldyck already 
stuck tartan
from 2 to 1000 in 10 minutes
frail fossil
Imagine not having lvl3 zoldyck already <:omegalul:585734084777476096>
i'm sorry i'm not based
stoic needle
Do you want to know what to do?
shrewd pivot
lol
balmy condor
there's bot commands
shrewd pivot
i just noticed that too
obtuse anvil
idk what to do anymore man
let the tide wash over you
balmy condor
no one uses that
stoic needle
Use the moroes bot
rustic thunder
lmao subs is like abandon ship right now
sweet rampart
Shut the channel down for the next 6 hours and have the only message be read the pins
shrewd pivot
lmao subs is like abandon ship right now
yep, this is it
real bay
it said this would happen lmao
shrewd pivot
the talent that ruined the game
balmy condor
can I slow mode the channel
shrewd pivot
lmaooo
balmy condor
is that a thing I can do
stuck tartan
i wish
frail fossil
can I slow mode the channel
this is your come back
stoic needle
no one uses that
Use the bot more agressively, delete people's posts that are the same set of questions and dm them the answer
tight ravine
With the 8% aura buff we're getting coming this reset (Jan 12th for NA), this puts sin into a viable spot for raids.
hollow jungle
quick someone sim sin and ad 8% see if it's near 6k
balmy condor
Use the bot more agressively, delete people's posts that are the same set of que...
with what hands my dude
rustic thunder
but in all seriousness it seems like assa should be better in the raid, being able to dish almost full damage while doing most mechanics
obtuse anvil
permanent slow mode for sin chat to bring back the comfy
stoic needle
No hands, use the auto functions
tight ravine
for sin Prioritize Haste, other stats seem close
rustic thunder
not like all you can do is throw a shuriken
stoic needle
Like when someone types !macros in sub
frail fossil
just give me community figure role i will do it
tawny barn
assa in raids will fine but in mythic plus, i dont see it
stoic needle
But with 'what is the best slot for zoldyck?' instead of !macro
rose condor
@obtuse anvil man, before this boss you could read this chat once a day and stay up to date
stuck tartan
now its a full classic raid
true rapids
!legendary
rose condor
now its an inferno!!
true rapids
:^)
stuck tartan
classic raid, we still have people asking the same questions over and over again
balmy condor
okay
tight ravine
legs are the best slot for Zoldyck insignia
fleet whale
what i'm curious to see though
balmy condor
new idea, y'all get to vote
stoic needle
I'm not gonna name names but don't pm me with questions that you can answer in the pins 
balmy condor
what if I just write an FAQ, and spam that every 5 minutes or something
meager yacht
Oh you can put me on the spot @stoic needle idc
fleet whale
or the complaints of sin not being smooth
stuck tartan
Do it
shut garnet
@balmy condor u need a macro board?
royal lantern
is if the complaints of sins "low apm" disappear
you mean that suddenly the spec is fun again?
ornate raptor
@balmy condor zoldyck or dashing for raiding?
shut garnet
and get u one
royal lantern
and that sub is clunky?
fleet whale
ngl i'm excited to see some juicy ambush crits
obtuse anvil
gotta have automod for "8%", "sin" or "best"
fleet whale
and Whisp you knew this would happen someday
obtuse anvil
or "sub"
tight ravine
zoldyck is good all around dashing is best for single target
shrewd pivot
haste vers or crit vers
obtuse anvil
and have it just spam the faq
stuck tartan
the spec doesnt change, its just deals more damage lol
balmy condor
I did
stoic needle
Auto-mod for 'best slot'
tawny barn
ambust does less dmg then mutilate kappa
tight ravine
haste vers sims similar to crit vers
placid wharf
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
shrewd pivot
crit vers must be satisfying
ornate raptor
@tight ravine thanks but what would you recommend
true rapids
what slot does zolydck go on, feet?
stuck tartan
leeeeeeegs
royal lantern
make pins for that question^^
topaz saffron
I'm legit going to cry, I'm so happy right now
tight ravine
i've just been copying and pasting from the pins @ornate raptor
stoic needle
Pins
shut garnet
havent looked at wclogs charts in so long
topaz saffron
I mained this spec since launch and I knew it was right to stay x
ornate raptor
Guess its kinda checking u wanna execute phase or not
serene elbow
zoldycks 235 rdy LEGO
fleet whale
yeah i've saved up all my ash
mortal pike
man I dont want to go kyrian
fleet whale
i can make a 235 zoldyck