it was something like that lol
#assassination
fleet whale
mortal scaffold
if they add another class i pray its not some tinker class that ppl have dreamed up
seems like a disaster
dense cedar
i mean it'd give them room to make engi as insignificant as possible
But yeah I mean survival kinda fits that tinker-esque thing kinda well
mortal scaffold
i wanna be a warden and compete with 10 other people for the name Mäíëvv
royal lantern
how is engineering insignificant
its the only prof that has uses OUTSIDE of "you can get some gold out of it"
dense cedar
Maiev is cool c:
mortal scaffold
when do i get 2 b her 😔
royal lantern
play hots
dense cedar
@royal lantern fixed what i wrote
fleet whale
i would still say jewelcrafting is the worst prof
dense cedar
whenever i played hots i played garrosh
fleet whale
useful but horrible for making gold
dense cedar
i mean im not talking about current version of professions
royal lantern
i would still say jewelcrafting is the worst prof
scribe imo
and leatherworking pre SL
dense cedar
Vantus runes don't sell well?
fleet whale
scribe has nice utility at least, but it does suck for gold
i would say inscription is useful but not very profitable
if that makes sense
dense cedar
ye
fleet whale
plus darkmoon cards can make bank at any expansion launch
dense cedar
im always an alch cos i don't like buying pots
dense cedar
2h flask is bae
fleet whale
speaking of alch... why does the deathly fixation potion exist
like phantom fire is so much better lol
royal lantern
alch doesnt really generate money cus so many people are alch
dense cedar
Widowbloom prices tho
royal lantern
it is
fleet whale
alchemy makes consistent gold throughout an expansion
dense cedar
i don't like gold farming
fleet whale
maybe not the highest, but pots are always useful
royal lantern
the best "passive income" prof is enchanting
dense cedar
so i'll take any excuse not to bother interacting with the player economy when i can
royal lantern
simply cus of disenchanting for mats and sell them
royal lantern
DISGUSTING
mortal scaffold
💸
dense cedar
@fleet whale i know guilds that do that for their guild bank
They should bring back Potion of the Old War's animation
fleet whale
i really just do it so i can supply myself with mats and consumables
fleet whale
i don't really like taking out the guild bank even if i'm allowed too
fleet whale
i guess me cause i buy tokens sometimes lol
royal lantern
balmy condor
fleet whale
$20 to me is easier to make than 120k gold
fleet whale
yeah i don't buy from cheapwowgold.com
royal lantern
*rouge
royal lantern
if the website you buy wow gold from
isnt telling you that there are hot singles nearby
is it even legit?
fleet whale
also wtf blizz why is it 5 widowbloom to make the agi pots in sl, while other primary stat pots use other herbs
widowblooms is by far the most expensive herb on my server
royal lantern
its expensive
cus everyone and their mom rolled mm huntard
wich is a agility class
fleet whale
if that's the case shouldn't phantom fire be really expensive too
phantom fires are quite a bit cheaper
also i'm sick of brainless mm hunters
doing horrible but still doing a lot of damage
royal lantern
you dont like not getting into groups cus everyone wants mm hunters
and then the mm huntards do 2,9k overall dps
fleet whale
so many brainless mm hunters
royal lantern
cus they do 0 outside of wild spirits?
fleet whale
just taking a ton of damage
royal lantern
reminder that this happend after i asked a hunter when the key was over, why he only did 2,6k dps
fleet whale
at least unholy dks take some skill to do some damage
fleet whale
i mean that's the general wow community
dense cedar
rogue can be bottom tier
fleet whale
they still think cloak of shadows is the most broken thing ever
dense cedar
and people wil ltreat it like it needs to be nerfed
royal lantern
no shit lol
fleet whale
rogues are rarely even top tier dps for raids
royal lantern
rogue could do less dps then healers, and people would complain cus they got ganked by one
everyone knows
when a rogue comes from stealth and kills you in a cc lock
its a shit class and needs too be nerfed NOW
when a paladin does bubble->judgment->wake and kills you its ok, they are COOL EPIC CRUSADERS
mortal scaffold
LMAO dragonslayers love complaining about rogues bc they don't know how to trinket a kidney
fleet whale
they trinket the sap
mortal scaffold
LMAO
fleet whale
or even worse, they are running adapt against a rogue lol
royal lantern
i dont gank people, i just sometimes randomly sap somone
but man
everytime i see somone sap->trinket
i wanna cry
royal lantern
they deserve too be ganked lel
mortal scaffold
i gank when im angsty. gankgsty
alpine garden
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
dense cedar
i don't often kill people in the world
my fav activity as a rogue is to go to summoning stones
and sap people trying to summon
fleet whale
a few years ago i would sneak into org
and if someone was flagged in the ah, i would gank them, lol
signal kayak
is sin really underperforming in m+???
fleet whale
yes, i've done well in the runs i've done
but eventually your skill won't be able to eclipse stronger specs
signal kayak
aight
low girder
Any reason why dashing loses dps in 5+ targets vs no leggo at all in fuu's sheet?
stoic needle
the best prof is currently skinning druid
balmy condor
margin of error
stoic needle
for making gold
deft locust
hello fellow sins, as the pvp channel is 98% sub (I am one too), I am hoping I might get a better answer here
What talents do y'all take for arena?
low girder
Ah ok, thought margin of error was like 6 dps
low girder
yeah figured -1.1% was pretty significant, at least for leggo comparison
lmao
could be
magic vine
from earlier: widowbloom is expensive because it doesn't harvest in as big of a stack (like the raw number you find) and it spawns in a pretty restrictive area in revendreth. meanwhile all the other herbs spawn in a pretty good mix of safe/dangerous areas and in more of the map
stoic needle
i'm upset at myself for not taking advantage of farming elethium and nightshade in the maw before they nerfed it
marble bear
is it really that bad?
balmy condor
It’s about 10% behind in single target, and closer to 25% in aoe
marble bear
guess ill learn sub
drifting cosmos
Outlul still better than sub in m+ right?
balmy condor
Yes
marble bear
i just hate how outlaw plays
stuck tartan
I'm learning outlaw cause I started to get bored of sub in M+
marble bear
i mean option two is play huntard and turn off my brain
inner lagoon
I have the 235 rank zoldyak I mean I am sticking with it. I did get booted from 2 mythics before start for being a sin rogue. I wasn't letting it get to me so I just am gonna stick it out
stoic needle
I was gonna craft a lvl 3 zoldyck today but I was short 30 soul ash because blizzard decided to make the soul ash missions impossible for venthyr
But my guildy spotted me a lvl 2 legs so I'm still gonna do the raid tonight as sin 
Still pretty pissed because I need all the ilvl I can get lmao
inner lagoon
What is your average dps overall as sin in mythic plus ? Usually I'm 198 ilvl
stoic needle
I wouldn't dare bring sin into m+
main forge
What is your average dps overall as sin in mythic plus ? Usually I'm 198 ilvl
I can't even recall because I haven't played since the first week or two since it doesn't do well at all when compared to Outlaw or Sub... And this is from a long time Sin player. I'd play sin if it was viable... but I know I was struggling doing keys
inner lagoon
I can't even recall because I haven't played since the first week or two since i...
Yeah highest I've done is a 9 haven't seen a 10 yet haha.
stoic needle
Keys are different than raids. There really isn't room to be doing 30% less aoe damage if you're trying to time keys
I'm not an insane player so doing 10s and up is a challenge, I flat out wouldn't time them if I tried to do them as sin
main forge
There isn't room to be doing 25% less damage in raids either. Which single target Sin really felt like at the start, still sort of does.
stoic needle
Sure it is when your guildies are there to make up the difference 
And raids don't have a time limit
Who cares if you kill the boss a little slower in a raid
It really matters in a key
dry atlas
Not always down to just one person doing 25% less damage if you can't time a key
stoic needle
Sure, but it can absolutely influence it
If you don't have the dps to down a prideful or another really dangerous mob and it wipes your group
In a key you're 1/3 of the major damage dealers, in a raid you're maybe 1 of 6 or even more so your individual contribution matters slightly less
sleek otter
Ok Im thearycrafting for pvp and was thinking of a build, tell me your thoughts
So this is renown 31(so weeks away) but using the Koryn Nightfae guy
with first strike and master assassin talent and doomblade legendary
So basiacally you have 90 percent crit for 3 seconds and about 40 depending on ur crit chance for 5 seconds
Not sure what opener would be
Maybe Marked Kidney, Garrote sepsis shiv envenom into mut rup?
Meh Im not good at this stuff, tell me if its horrible, seems like itd be ok opener damage and gives a little bit of burst on opener, guess gameplay would still be ok in pvp but we will have more stats by then
iron orchid
What is your average dps overall as sin in mythic plus ? Usually I'm 198 ilvl
I have done keys up to 14s as sin rogue, I'd say I do an average overall between 3.7k and 5k depending on keys, affixes and team composition. I never manage to put out impressively high dps on packs, but I'd say we can do rather well on bosses, and if you have the skill, you can still bring some utility and constant aoe damage to your team.
It is clearly not a good spec at all, but I like the challenge
Of course if you setup packs correctly and you know your teammates, you can even get some fairly high numbers.
olive shadow
what two stats should i be looking for assassin rogue.. i like the class and tend to play even tho sub is better!
balmy condor
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
balmy condor
is a good suggestion
you should top gear sim yourself with new gear as you acquire it though
it's always more accurate to sim yourself
steep badger
Is it weird that mast is so low overall with our best leggo being basically dependent on it?
stoic needle
Ok Im thearycrafting for pvp and was thinking of a build, tell me your thoughts
I think the playstyle of bursting people down in pvp is gonna die down soon. So you might wanna think about some kind of opener you can sort of fake people out with, to force them to blow their cooldowns so you can then actually burst them down later. Sin has an advantage with all of the dots for that kind of pressure thing, if they actually did a lot of damage I mean.
green peak
Does exsanguinate snapshot your dots?
balmy condor
exsang snapshots haste
green peak
Hmm the dance trinket from Council gives a ton of haste
balmy condor
Yeah, but exsang is an awful talent
green peak
Even in PvP?
probably okay in pvp
stoic needle
I wish exsang was good
Imagine if it refreshed + snapshotted
Line up anima battery, flagellation, and thrill seeker for giga haste exsang
What exactly is the problem with exsanguinate?
balmy condor
yeh
calm dome
Happy new Years to all my Assasins friends ! Have a good times , wosh you all the best
lost beacon
pshero played assa and it looked okeish but not good but its oke
fleet whale
pshero is also one of the best rogues in the world
past bramble
That's pretty normal actually 😄
gleaming eagle
well for m+ 1 thing sin brings more than sub is aoe
but then outlaw kinda beat us on both
balmy condor
stoic needle
Maybe if you only ever pull 3 enemies at a time
fleet whale
i think sin does actually preform better than sub in 3 target cleave
especially sustained
fleet whale
lol i just had a 115k envenom crit in torghast
and technically it's a 135k with a 20k vial of unseen poison hit added on lol
oblique copper
lol i just had a 115k envenom crit in torghast
Kyrian 20 cp finisher paired with 400% finisher damage from shadowstep?
80 cp finishers here we go
serene elbow
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
stoic needle
I had a 180k one during my week's runs it was incredible lol
Probably a silly question but does zoldyck benefit envenom? It's nature damage but not technically a poison right
quasi ledge
The best is the blob boss that splits and both Sepsis powers. For some reason it spreads to the splits before it even has so after 10 seconds it instantly dies, think I crit for 500k and the total damage was just over 1m
bold jetty
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
sand otter
going to pvp casually
what legendary would you recommend just for derping around in BGs or arenas, nothing serious
i was thinking about Mark, because i can just replace my current legendary using the same slot.
daring pecan
mark
restive bluff
inc sin buff?
sick scarab
i start to hate these conduits cd thing..
have to swap conduits for m+.. from well placed stell to katar..
if i set up dreamweaver it give m e less dps.. ffs
and it sucks
balmy condor
I wouldn’t use Katar
balmy condor
Aight
balmy condor
I’ve never seen it sim higher than margin compared to poison/wps
sick scarab
i may ingnore katar and gg
17 dps more !! lol
it can be also good running MA + hidden blased for burst aoe
but it will fall off i suppose
balmy condor
You’d still gar x3 and then the last second, you’d get the burst I guess
Might be worth if you go mfd
Hm
Idk
Don’t really like it
sick scarab
the thing is going 3 garr etc is slow as fuck
bursting maybe be good on non super hight key dunno
balmy condor
Well that’s just how sin works though
Mfd speeds it up, that’s why it sims higher
But we have a lot of ramp time, and not a lot of combo points
obtuse ruin
balmy condor
The fuck is “score”
iron orchid
Totally arbitrary score from warcraftlogs website, ranking your total damage done throughout the dungeon, not taking into account key level
If you narrow the filters down to 95 percentile, you get to a more normal graph i guess
vestal wren
score is a aggregation to have less impact from fights with high dps i assume
but best is to ask on the wcl discord
points is a interessting metric but it probably just means how many allstar points specs gathered
iron orchid
I misunderstood
balmy condor
Wcl’s whole internal points system has never really been a favorite of mine
vestal wren
i think transparency would be nice
iron orchid
score is a aggregation to have less impact from fights with high dps i assume
I think that's just it
iron orchid
i think transparency would be nice
You get no info unless you go look for it by yourself on the wcl discord, that's sad
stoic needle
Even on the wcl discord it's not very clear
vestal wren
r.io is more transparent, you don't have a hard time reading the score even without knowlage of the calculation
iron orchid
Even on the wcl discord it's not very clear
If you go throughevery discussion, you may find your answers, but the announcements are not very clear yeah
Logs for MM+ make no sense imo
Unless you just want to check back your runs as a team
balmy condor
It just always makes little sense to me, because if you to a +5, all the scores are in the mid 80’s now instead of low 90’s
vestal wren
logs for mythic plus make a lot of sense
vestal wren
using dps as a metric is probably not super relevant tho
drowsy needle
What is a good Coven for assassination?
vestal wren
thats why they used points
balmy condor
Yeah m+ logs are fine, just a pain to read
balmy condor
What is a good Coven for assassination?
All are fine
stoic needle
What would be a better metric to use besides dps, or alongside dps? How much you beat the timer by? Damage taken? Kicks/stuns/interrupts?
balmy condor
Too many variables imo
iron orchid
Is that a reflection of players doing more damage?
I think so ^^ I am not sure it takes DPS into account, but total damage, so the higher the key the most damage you have to pull out, the higher score ? I am not sure
balmy condor
The problem is, how do you quantify the player
R.io does it based on the best runs by the player
But they don’t have a way of determining say, the best player out of the 3 dps
And that’s a problem everywhere
Raid logs are just did you do the most damage
Dungeon logs can’t be that obviously
vestal wren
m+ is group content, so you only measure the performance of the group
vestal wren
it was also not uncommon that timing a key could actually be easier with lower dps
balmy condor
No real way to measure each player individually outside of that
vestal wren
the very obvious affix for that was reaping
the mdi did show us very well that "skipping" the adds with shadowmelt did outperform doing it.
And doing raging would increase your overall dps significantly
strange python
D
brazen pine
m+ is group content, so you only measure the performance of the group
@vestal wren r.io doesn't base the score on grp setup too, tho, right? So if you're running with friends in a non-ideal setup (read, all melee, for ex) you won't be "rated" compared to a similar group.
brazen pine
Oh, that goes for class intern rating too? Thought ilvl/dps might come in there somewhere but come to think of it, that would actually be weird without logs. Just realized that, really. So something new I learned in the new year xD
stoic needle
Got an ilvl 200 dagger from the timewalking ulduar raid pog
I'm mad this thing gives more loot than CN
strange python
Just checking in. How you guys doing? Keeping your spirits high despite blizzard clearly hating you?
#buffsin
daring imp
playing outlaw .... 😦
gusty mirage
Same 
real bay
echo cargo
real bay
no loot allowed
balmy condor
cause that wouldn't help
and would force crimson tempest to be the go to single target talent most likely
stoic needle
more energy wouldn't help us in AOE?
uncut schooner
Remember when you could play Sin?
balmy condor
more energy wouldn't help us in AOE?
no, because we're already energy capped in aoe
stoic needle
i must not be rupturing enough then or something
fleet whale
yeah energy isn't the issue for sin aoe
it's fok not doing damage
and crit levels still being low
balmy condor
the crit thing isn't really so much of an issue as much as fok just not generating cp
crit helps with that
but even with higher crit, it's not enough
fleet whale
idk i didn't really find it to be that much of an issue in bfa
or legion for that matter
main forge
or there being an AoE instant damage finisher like black powder
balmy condor
you didn't find it an issue in bfa because SS existed
and that got the ball rolling much faster
fleet whale
in that case just have Garrote generate 2 cps from stealth or subter and black powder is overrated
main forge
it is... but Sin doesn't have a single instant damage finisher
main forge
its pretty much combo to 4-5, rupture, and at 3 targets what envenom?
fleet whale
Sin's aoe can be solved without having a baseline aoe finisher, they need to add more interactions with FoK and stuff like envenom
main forge
have FoK empower the combo points to get an AoE Envenom?
fleet whale
they could maybe try something like that, or have it so that when you have the envenom buff up
your fok hits deal bonus nature damage
and if blizz wants snd to stay, they could add a talent for sin that gives snd a cleave property
main forge
that isn't going to help much when we are energy starved right now, but i guess we aren't in AoE
I rather SnD be another cooldown instead of a finisher for Sin, maybe make it IDK a blade flurry? maybe a cleave finisher?
just the current state I don't like as a maintenance buff
fleet whale
snd is just especially awkward to use in like 3-4 target situations
since you still want to keep it up
but it like at the same time... does nothing for actual cleave/aoe
past bramble
For M+ and PvP should I just craft MA as my first lego? I'm kinda rotating between the 3 specs at the moment, since Assa is under-performing
fleet whale
yeah that's a good idea
main forge
Yeah thats what I did. its working out okay...
although I might recommend not crafting it rank 4 unless you are heavy into PvP
past bramble
Thanks, would you rather have a different lego now?
fleet whale
rank 4 is hella expensive
frozen forge
You guys think sin will come around later?
fleet whale
maybe
main forge
I usually play sin, but would probably prefer two rank 2s
past bramble
I wouldn't invest to a rank 4 really, I was thinking more of a rank 2 at least
fleet whale
depends on what blizz does with the spec
main forge
R4 was 70k gold for me
fleet whale
what server and what piece are you talking about
fleet whale
i guess rings are cheap, pants are very expensive
past bramble
You guys think sin will come around later?
In a few months hopefully, when the new raid comes
main forge
Leather and Mail is expensive as fuck though
fleet whale
cause on sarg us, rank 4 pants are extremely expensive
main forge
like 100-300k for rank 2-4
fleet whale
and even rank 2 pants are like 55k if you are lucky
main forge
I made like 500k on herbs for that first week or two so I made bank
but yeah I don't recommend R4 unless you are really committed to a spec
I almost want to craft 3 R1's for each spec
I want to play sin, but trying to learn sub.... and looks like I may have to take up Outlaw if I want to compete on DPS meters
past bramble
I'm exactly in the exact same boat as you, jumping between the 3 specs
It would be unfortunate if they do nothing for the spec when the changes come
rugged dragon
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
main forge
I am just mad that we got completely passed over completely. Feeling like survival hunter normally does isn't cool.
blizz slaps SnD and shiv on Sin Just look at the DPS you can do now Blizz pencils in some talents and legendaries and then just runs with them
past bramble
The opportunities are there, look at the Torghast abilities, you can easily implement a fun poison or bleed mechanic into the mix..
I personally don't agree with the minimal changes, SnD just makes everything awkward
stoic needle
stats are looking a bit better after this timewalking raid, getting less and less yucky mastery
if i could just trade all my mastery for vers
misty holly
red ink talent pls
main forge
it would be the only talent we got
stoic needle
Red ink and vein rippers
they could even make it conditional so that you need to have a poison and bleed on the target before red ink activated if they were worried about balance or whatever
main forge
Red Ink would make a nice cooldown say on 1:30 you could activate it
stoic needle
make vein rippers uncapped and then vanish becomes sin's flamestrike
but with more setup
stoic needle
i know you hate it whispyr but i disagree
what else are we gonna use it for
we cant avoid mechanics with it
it literally just sits there doing nothing
balmy condor
stoic needle
at least with vein rippers it would be useful
balmy condor
but you have been able to avoid mechanics with it
stoic needle
but blizzard doesn't like that anymore
given the choice between the two, I would choose us being able to avoid mechanics with it. but blizzard obviously hates that rogues can skip their preciously designed mechanics, so vanish needs to do SOMETHING other than just letting us refresh subt garrote and get a weak ass ambush
balmy condor
i mean
idk where you got that notion
bfa was one of the most vanish skip heavy expacs
in a long time
stoic needle
the precedent set so far in SL
where you can vanish a grand total of 1 mechanic i think? ember blast?
and them nerfing the shit out of cloak
it seems obvious to me
And that all of the dungeons can be done without shroud
balmy condor
shroud is definitely nice to have
stoic needle
I haven't seen many situations where it just wouldn't make me miss count but maybe I'm just a scrub
HoA is like the only one with a skip that I know of
You can do a skip completely without shroud in spires
Maybe in plaguefall to kill the skeletons at the end separate from the miniboss
balmy condor
you also shroud the start of theatre sometimes
and the big necromancer pack in necrotic
main forge
I don't like vanish as a DPS cooldown either. Feign Death and Invis aren't are they? Why does our drop threat and combat have to be?
I haven't done anything either than a 9 yet, but haven't seen a good "we need shroud here" that can't be handled by good stuns, interrupts and doing mechanics
balmy condor
The necromancer pack in wake is actually huge
marble hemlock
can just invis them
dps potions are so useless
that the difference between using shroud and having pot, vs just using invis pot/enchant
is pretty negligible
balmy condor
yeah I guess
inner lagoon
How hard was the ulduar time walk
stoic needle
It was very easy
inner lagoon
I saw it.drops 200 stuff
stoic needle
Only yogg and general whatever were any challenge
I got a dagger, shoulders, cape with a socket, and a trinket that I traded because it wasn't an upgrade
Fucked up that I got more loot from that one raid than all of my CN clears combined
inner lagoon
I need daggers bad I got 184s
stoic needle
Idk I don't mind using vanish in our rotation to use more of our stealth abilities
daring pecan
Is the problem that vanish can be used that way or is the problem that our talents are made in such a way that it encourages it? 
balmy condor
I would be okay if it were either or
If it’s supposed to be utility, let it be utility, if it’s supposed to be a damage cd, let it be a damage cd
daring pecan
(I think that the stealth talents are the problem but that might just be me)
but I also made my stance on our talents quite clear fairly often
balmy condor
Historically it’s been either a weird half-ling
And I don’t like that
Or it’s been almost damage, but in a really weird way
past bramble
We just need the 400% damage Shadowstep and we will be viable again 😂
inner lagoon
Ya my time walking ulduar went as expected. No one knowing vehicles and wiping over and over to stuff lol
mortal scaffold
why does garrote have a cd
daring pecan
ask blizzard
patent garden
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
main forge
Ya my time walking ulduar went as expected. No one knowing vehicles and wiping o...
That's how mine went... lucky it was a guild group so after we spent the first 45 minutes clearing and getting the right people in vehicles(its pretty much all demos just having a good blue goo bonus) we finally got past FL. The rest of the bosses beside Yogg-0 is a cakewalk... I'll admit to forgeting many of the encounters mechanics.... like shadowstepping on the hands boss... I may have leapt off the edge
main forge
How do you get into the ulduar raid
Have to go to Wrath Dalaran... there is a time walking queue next to the vendor for timewalking stuff
azure fox
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
jagged axle
sin buffs coming soon
stuck tartan
sin buffs coming soon
0,5% aura buff
west tiger
how do you deal with the pasive damge in soulforgeP
magic vine
from earlier chat: the necro pull in necrotic is skippable if you have a priest (mind soothe the miniboss), or if you have a couple CCs you can cc the not-boss guys and skirt around the edge. not sure if you need 2 or 3 haven't messed with it much.
alternatively, you grab the orb and leverage the just silly amount of damage and the constant 8 seconds of interrupts to just blow all the guys up and then its a super easy miniboss guy alone
inner lagoon
how do you deal with the pasive damge in soulforgeP
Can use the slice and dice endurance conduit.
west tiger
okay ty
past bramble
What's the optimal slot for the MA legendary?
Or it varies depending on PvE/Pvp/Spec?
stoic needle
how do you deal with the pasive damge in soulforgeP
Ravenous anima cell, then respec to sub or play with a healer
stoic needle
What's the optimal slot for the MA legendary?
Ring
stoic needle
@balmy condor hey, do you mind helping me figure out how to sim a few things? I'd like to generate my own custom APL but I'm not sure where to go to find the string syntax for referencing certain buffs(namely stacks of thrill seeker. i'd like to add a conditional to the usage of flagellation to hold it until it lines up with your thrill seeker stacks so the haste buffs activate simultaneously) and how to generate the strings for items I don't have( I'd like to sim a few different combinations of 2 legendaries)
I've got the simc client downloaded and I have a decent idea of how to use it, I'm just not quite sure how to format the edits i want to make properly
cold rampart
phantom fire or agility?
stoic needle
Phantom fire ST agility AOE, swapping stones and oil accordingly
lethal coral
What talents would you recommend me, and how can I sustain 3.5k-4k dps in a dungeon?
I’m https://raider.io/characters/us/stormrage/Fáora
Garrote, garrote, garrote, fan of knives, crimson tempest, fan, fan, fan, fan, fan, vanish, fan of knives, crimson tempest
Am I doing something wrong
I’m usually at 2.5k-3k
stoic needle
You still should try to keep SnD up til about 5 targets, so you should run MfD so you can get SnD up pre pull
lethal coral
I know that I shouldn’t be playing assassination this expansion, but I love the class
iron orchid
Depends on what team comp you are playing with
stoic needle
After the first CT you want to spread ruptures on anything beefy enough to live the full duration
And try to snipe resets with MfD for envenoms
You have to keep up Ruptures and garottes as much as you can for energy if you're dropping vigor
I admire the spirit though I'm too scared to play sin in keys lol
iron orchid
On less than 4 targets, don't prioritize FoK over Mut, that works fine for me. Keep bleeds up on targets that will last in combat, use crimson tempest to keep it up in multitarget.
stoic needle
Also I think you want to try to refresh garottes with vanish
lethal coral
Ty! Yeah, I have a friend Tomiklol-Trollbane who is just always top dps in Mythic+ and keeps up with subs which is nuts
stoic needle
Yeah fan of knives is garbage it's such a damn shame
iron orchid
This week in high keys i don't even play with ct beacause its damage doesn't ramp up cos i play with fire mage and mm hunt in most keys
stoic needle
You just want it to apply poisons
lethal coral
Coo coo
iron orchid
Like 13/14 atm, i may run some more tonight
Doesn't feel bad not having CT this week as far as I have played it, but i must admit i have not done much dungeon runs since reset
The nice part is, packs get deleted by my mates and I. I keep nice aoe damage through dots, but ct benefits less than poison bomb on ST, which is a big part of the damage output you have to deal with cos of tyrannical
stoic needle
I'm never gonna be a high key pusher tbh
Y'all are inspiring me to just git gud and play sin anyway heh
lethal coral
I have 2 sets of gear, 1 for aoe, and my st, since i’ll be pushing dots more, should I just run my st gear set?
stoic needle
i think it depends on the affixes of the week i guess. on tyrranical week you'd want to run your ST set
and vice versa
lethal coral
Thanks!
stoic needle
@iron orchid what dps do you usually average in your keys?
iron orchid
In 10+ i would say between 3.8k and 5k overall dps depending on key
stoic needle
that's pretty solid
iron orchid
I guess, yet it feels sad not being able to burst packs like some specs do. Certain affixes also feel like a pain the ass for sin rogues, as did malevolent from past week.
pure heron
main forge
I'd even be fine with it, if we brought utility and were useful.
And gave us a reason to bring a Sin rogue to any content
robust pine
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
sharp briar
do you guys think we will see a buff in a near future?
balmy condor
depends on your definition of near
sharp briar
3-4 weeks
balmy condor
no
sharp briar
rip
frail fossil
Pain
drifting cloud
I think theres a chance you see another sin buff, its definetly a small one
but not like anyone has been working during the last 10 days
since alot of people were also expecting SLG mythic nerfs which didnt come this week
vestal wren
another 5% could be enough but hard to say
gleaming eagle
near future is next expansion @sharp briar
velvet mason
sad but true
stoic needle
we running mfd or vigor on sire?
balmy condor
vigor
stoic needle
ty 🙂 gonna kill sire for the first time with my guild and i want to pull my weight as much as i can
what are your thoughts for simming 5 target PW vs dslice for evaluating aoe? 5 target PW says that going with theotar over nadjia is a pretty large dps increase in aoe
i'm worried about actually being able to make use of the umbrella though
balmy condor
if you're trying to evaluate aoe, you would sim aoe
lucid ruin
Has Sin improved at all with legos/gear or is it still bottom of the barrel?
balmy condor
Still bad
We don’t magically scale with gear
The gap actually widens a little more
lucid ruin
rip
lament dove
what I don't get is why they can't just tune classes/specs more frequently? if they have aura buffs/nerfs, I just don't get it... they just let people who play underperforming specs not enjoy the game, I mean wtf, seriously...?
balmy condor
they don't want to disrupt the balance constantly
balmy condor
the balance that currently exists
balmy condor
lament dove
I guess the joke is on me for staying subscribed just to do dailies and try to keep my char in shape in the hopes that I will again enjoy playing it someday...
lament dove
the fact that I do more dps with my other specs that I'm not even know that much... and that I don't like to pull my team down with subpar dmg
but sure, I could be baby yoda in the team
but tbh I'm not impressed by rogue overall, not sure why I'm even invited to m+ pugs as a melee and as a rogue...
balmy condor
because rogues are a great class to have in m+
light kestrel
Rogues would be in a super solid spot if they'd give us back smoke bomb baseline
lament dove
yeah, well not long ago it was a great class as well and assa was a great spec before, while I also did good dmg
balmy condor
sin has literally been a top tier spec for the last 5 years homie
sometimes you're not the best
balmy condor
I actually don't understand why you're so angry
there has to be specs that are worse than others
you play a class with 3 dps specs
frail fossil
mfw sin is not the top rogue spec it has been for years for like one tier 
balmy condor
there will be times where 1 of those is good, and 1 isn't
that's how numbers work
you can't just make everything balanced, because that's not reality
sub and outlaw on single target are close
but do you play sub? no, you don't
because it gets smashed in cleave
what's the point we're balancing around?
lament dove
well, I never felt weak as assa (and as rogue) for 14 years, this is new to me, that's why I guess:)
balmy condor
sub and sin equal in sims? then no one would play sub
within 5%? 10%? in what context?
like you're malding over being the weakest of 3 options
for the first time
in years
that doesn't mean you can't play it
hell, if you're doing your weekly 15, and heroic raiding
play sin
its a god damn game
@light kestrel yes, the internet is full of idiots who chase meta for no good reason
lament dove
if I would chase meta I would have rerolled to a hunter or dk...
light kestrel
I'm still doing decent, but the stigma is there. I just wish our AoE wasn't so rough.
unborn smelt
I am curious , I thought Exsanguinate will cause ALL Bleed effects on the target to apply faster and not only my Rupture 
unborn smelt
not at my dummy
unborn smelt
hmm I guess I found the problem
eternal totem
heya, im guessing night fae sepsis doesn't trigger empowered garrote if you have subterfuge?
balmy condor
it does not trigger any stealth effects
eternal totem
thank you 🙂
molten harbor
How bad is assasination with the buff? I can't stand Sub Rogue
balmy condor
It’s still one of the worst specs in the game
But if you’re not pushing anything major, it’s good enough
molten harbor
Sadge
mellow owl
I don't mind being an underdog, but you know it's pure meme when you're (actually) bullied in an rbg for playing sin xd.
daring imp
the problem is the "reward" for effort you put in being trumped by another spec available, i'm managing 300~400 extra DPS over what, ~4min of dummy-destroying just by being outlaw and barely knowing the full optimization behind sub ç_ç
mental igloo
leggos scare me wrt flavor of the month bullshit
like if sin gets some stupid OP buff on the PVE front, which don't put that past blizzard, i have to craft all new shit
and change a lot of stat priority from my Sub build
which sorta blows?
but that's WoW
lapis falcon
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
lapis falcon
is doomblade what people are using for pvp?
balmy condor
Ma I’m pretty sure
dense cedar
Remember old Venom Rush
grim mason
other than those, may I present to you ...
seems rings form random bg has a chance to have main stat, which is unusual
stuck tartan
At max level?
grim mason
dunno i got that at 58 while farming for Honor before 60
grim mason
do non max level rings have mainstat?
stuck tartan
some do
grim mason
ohh makes sense
hmm as a lvl 58 none of the rings in the guide has mainstat
from this xpac
stuck tartan
They removed mainstats from rings by...Legion I think?
so anythin after that doesnt have it
grim mason
still interesting to see this one tho, and maybe tru to what you said about those boxes having items from other xpac
oblique kiln
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
misty holly
It looks like ulduar timewalking has some agility, crit, and haste rings... that might be interesting
for someone who doesn't do mythic raiding and is rolling 226 gear anyways
misty holly
can wowhead show the stats scaled to ilevel 200?
stoic needle
how's ulduar timewalking in terms of difficulty
Like lfr level
stoic needle
If you do them on non 60 characters do you get loot scaled to their level? I wonder
stuck tartan
can u do timewalking raids on non 60? cause dungeons loot get scaled for sure if I remember
daring imp
how's ulduar timewalking in terms of difficulty
stomping through
doing the minimal mechanics on a few bosses
like the snow guy
glass meadow
Are there any legos performing well for pvp sin besides the cross-spec legos (MA/Shadowdust)?
balmy condor
doomblade seems to be okay
misty holly
Just finished Ulduar... seems they removed the rings from loot tables lol. Did get a trinket tho.
grim canopy
When does Blizzard come off vacation
first thing he does better be u know what
+5% to asassin skills. and another +10% to FOK . Also an apology letter
sleek otter
So as assassination, how come ppls dont run Blindside? Its low dmg but energy is so low its a free 2-3 combo points
in pvp
balmy condor
because master poisoner buffs wound poison
and that's pretty neat
also some chance to rng some damage, usually worse than consistent, reliable damage
especially when you're only looking at a 10-15 second fight
fallow otter
The dream is that the damage profile is what is changed imo, make our dots actually do dmg I want aff lock kinda dot dmg filler and CP gen can hit like wet blankets for all I care
faint harness
Dmg profile gon be execute spec when its good again
And we will all play sin or be inting our raids
dense cedar
At least Sin is fun
stoic needle
I for one welcome the return of our sin overlords
dense cedar
So Satan?
dense cedar
clockwatching is fun
strange python
I wouldn't mind being the melee aff at all
You can do that already, it's called feral
stoic needle
paper fulcrum
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
balmy condor
I cba trying to keep them on topic
went to raid, came back to 400 messages and like 50 of them were about sub
stoic needle
poor whisp
they naturally get back on topic anyway
all it takes is someone to come in and ask a sub question
balmy condor
aight now go back in there before this channel goes too deep down the offtopic rabbit hole
stoic needle
fiiiine
eternal totem
so im following the opener from icy veins, i assume it's correct (i've noticed weird contradictions with icy veins in their priorites/openers before)
but when in the opener is best to use my dps pot
balmy condor
with vendetta
eternal totem
thank you!
also, in my sims... well placed-steel is only simming 0.4% higher than lethal poisons... i think here lethal poisons would still be better in a real life scenario due to no down time?
am i correct in that train of thought
- better uptime in mythic +
balmy condor
the difference in downtime makes no gain or loss either way honestly
they're roughly the same regardless
eternal totem
alright, thank you 🙂
grim valley
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
lapis falcon
am i still supposed to use ambush with Doomblade?
stoic needle
only with blindside procs, like usual
lapis falcon
any chance sin becomes competitive without buffs? (ie. once haste and crit levels become high enough)
grizzled jay
Well that's a weird way to put it. By the time stats becomes so high, we would've gotten buffed again maybe, maybe wear 2 leggos and have tier gear and conduit/soul bind changes.
By then you never know.
stoic needle
no
that's scaling, scaling is fake news
all the other classes will also be 'scaling' at the same time sin is, the gap will probably get wider if anything
lapis falcon
some classes don't scale too much with secondary's
warrior typically ramps up pretty hard with secondary's since rage generation is a problem early in expansions
monks typically fall off because they don't scale with secondary's
stoic needle
scaling isn't going to bridge the gap for us sadly
lapis falcon
sad
side note, SBS is really nice for proccing system shock and not having to overcap
stoic needle
i could see necrolord sin pvp being very strong
I really hate that they dont want covenant abilities to interact with class ones
errant hull
why necrolord sin? the dot doesnt get applied in pvp i thought
deft vault
lapis falcon
it's just a combo point generator really
really nice for sub, gives them some cleave damage and really helps with combo points in between dances
north pewter
I see the bis gear list, but I'm not having any great luck with finding some resources on the memories
north pewter
oh wow, yeah. I forgot all about pins. thanks man
sick kestrel
Hi guys! Am new to assasination and am loving it. I know people say its not best spot yada yada but I love it an want to try my best at it.
My question is, how do you use vanish optimally?
(For PVE)
stuck tartan
to apply garrote if you're playing subterfuge, or use envenom-mutilate-envenom if you're playing master assassin
stoic needle
The cooldown of vanish lines up with vendetta nicely so I like to vanish to refresh a subterfuge garotte and then go into vendetta with shiv
The garotte will get the subterfuge bonus and the vendetta bonus for the duration of the buff
Depends on the fight as well. Vanishing right as you enter phase 2 of denathrius to drop 3 subterfuge garottes on denathrius, remornia and an add for example
gusty mirage
I miss my fellow bleedy stabby bois. Stay strong we may see another buff come your way ❤️
stoic needle
Every Tuesday I get my hopes up a little bit when I read the patch notes... And every Tuesday I am disappointed 
fleet whale
Blizz rarely does more than one tuning pass in one tier
have to wait until 9.1 to see if they actually do anything
sick kestrel
Thanks for the advice guys 😄 loving the spec
sick kestrel
well why arent you! you can do it i believe in you
real bay
sick kestrel
bold trail
I think my rotation is a bit screwy and need to retrain a bit... what's the best rotation manager for assassin?
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
sick kestrel
Luxthos is also very good
bold trail
Cool... thanks.
mild lintel
🙏🏿 for buff
grim mason
hey, I am on a alt and stuck at 14 renown with [Blood from a Bone] which says reach renown 17,
Necro by the way, but I don't see any quest to further my renown
balmy condor
need to do callings/dungeons/raids to catch up
versed mica
thought dashing scound was better than zold?
feral pewter
Have you guys been lucky finding groups?
Cus damn, if I dont run my own keys, I just cant join groups.
balmy condor
Lot of factors go into that, spec is usually the least of those tbh
95% People don’t know what spec you are until they invite you
They just see rogue
feral pewter
And too few tanks.. yesterday I spent 1 hour finding a tank.. even dropped the ilvl requirement a bit, and nothing.
balmy condor
Just for cc and shroud and shit
Most people worth a shit have guild groups and m+ groups set up as well
spice spire
Sometimes you go on vacation and miss a week 
feral pewter
Most people worth a shit have guild groups and m+ groups set up as well
lol
Good thing for them right?
balmy condor
Yeh
feral pewter
Indeed worth a shit.
balmy condor
I mean it’s either get io and ilvl and pray for pugs or play with people you know
feral pewter
Nah, not going to get on your level.
main forge
I was thinking today about what rogue could get for utility... and the only thing I could think of was Blind being able to put a debuff on a mob to reduce damage dealt or decrease chance to hit for a period of time. Would at least give us SOMETHING already fits with what we have on hand... besides bringing smokebomb back
strange python
do any of y’all ever top your dps meters in m+
karmic flame
Maybe single target but thats debatable
dusty flame
do any of y’all ever top your dps meters in m+
what shit do you smoke
strange python
cat litter
karmic flame
Only way i see it is if you have bis and ilvl adv vs joe bob
stoic needle
maybe in a m2
karmic flame
Fire maged hunters and warriors all get pretty gross in execute phase so i imagine even where when the ass shines they just dont.
fallow otter
Dk also execute
fallow otter
Perfectodk
strange python
i wanted to try sin in m+ but i’m very comfortable with sub. if you took two players with same gear and one was good with sub and the other good with sin would the sub always out dps the sin
strange python
so all things constant sub is better
fallow otter
Rogue has 2 dps specs atm
strange python
that’s disappointing i wanted to try something new
even as sub i’m almost never top dps in my m+
but re rolling is such a massive pain in the ass
fallow otter
Outlaw is very good after playing both alot and wanting sub to be better just for a change, outlaw is better in all content imo
obsidian willow
Is assassination better now?
balmy condor
no
low girder
if you read it's going up on mythic because of huntsman
all of the parses are shriekwing and huntsman
balmy condor
that's the effect of the 5% buff from 3-4 weeks ago
and huntsman
that doesn't mean sin is better
violet wasp
Wowhead says it’s going up in logs
Reed the note down and cry.
gusty mirage
The 5% added was like getting a Christmas present but you open the present and it’s just a pile of shit
strange python
what’s huntsman
fallow otter
A nightmare in the shower
balmy condor
what’s huntsman
second boss nathria
sterile jackal
some ppl in my guild say that today/tomorrow we will get massive balance patch- it took so long because of holiday break- what do you think? Is it possible?
rich yew
low girder
possible but unlikely, think it's more likely they don't want to rock the boat too much rn
sterile jackal
also i'd love to see some lvl 50 talents rework. Almost all other classes have sth powerfull in their last row while rogues have shit.
sterile jackal
possible but unlikely, think it's more likely they don't want to rock the boat t...
i have simple needs, just buff 15% sin dmg
balmy condor
15% would be way too much
sterile jackal
the point is, i'd like a buff :p
also it would be hard to swap from sub to sin
i have like 3 pscs of gear with haste
and 3-4 pvp items, new way of gearing is not nice
balmy condor
you don't take dashing in m+
glass root
i dont know if Poison bomb works for it but loooks decent if it does
i just feel like Zoldyck is a wate for m+ since it only works below 30%
dont know thou havnt tried or sim neither
south drum
Poison bomb doesn't work with dashing
balmy condor
i just feel like Zoldyck is a wate for m+ since it only works below 30%
how is that a waste
glass root
its not gonna last long on mobs
balmy condor
it lasts for the last 30%
unless your group pumps the last 30% of mobs for some strange reason
it's going to be literally 30% of the dungeon
probably more, because most of the time you're pushing cds into the start of packs, or the start of bosses
glass root
ye but not in low keys
DOT based classes require time to do damage and that " time " is not given to you in M+ with hunters pumping 30k
south drum
Or you could just sim it and see what it does
past jolt
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
fervent kettle
do you guys do torgast as assa or go outlaw for ez route ?
fervent kettle
oh eally? thats pog
stuck tartan
and you'll feel great playing it
fervent kettle
i mean i dont care if ppl say its weaker iam gonna stuck with it
stuck tartan
same tbh
robust pine
If crit chance is higher than 100% does it make crit damage higher?
robust pine
So crit legendary jusst replaces crit talent?
balmy condor
yes
we had the crit legendary in legion
the legendary then got added as the talent
and now we have the legendary again
robust pine
Yeah i know
fervent kettle
rip no weapon on time walk
fervent kettle
well i got 5 items so i cant complain i guess
just weird i lvld this rogue dungeon only 50-60.. now time walk 😄 i havnt seen a single weap drop
strange python
i just feel like Zoldyck is a wate for m+ since it only works below 30%
take MA if the affix allows for a re-stealth between packs - for example MA was horrible with Spiteful but is going to be great this past week and this reset
sick kestrel
Hey guys, new to sin rogue and loving it. what's our optimal oipener when running both subterfuge and prey on the weak (pve)?
ocean bear
Basically garrote and get a 5pt tempest out as soon as possible
Single target just switch specs :P
balmy condor
Other way around, single target and in raid we keep up
It’s dungeons where we should change specs xD
ocean bear
Change specs both until further notice haha
ocean bear
Assassination under repair "we will be back" blizzard
sick kestrel
Thanks, sorry for being a brainlet but what is snd abbreviated? 😛
ocean bear
SliceNdice
ocean bear
No you want to garrote up to 3 ppl, but reach 5 combo pointa before crimson tempest
sick kestrel
so we dont Cheap shot with opener for the 10% with prey on the werak, we insstead kidney shot as part of the rotation to get the damage buff
ocean bear
Usually it takes just 3 garrotes from trash to trash pull
balmy condor
No
Prey on the weak doesn’t add either cheap shot
Nor kidney into the rotation
It’s just some extra damage when you happen to use kidney in keys pretty much
balmy condor
Using cheap shot as sin is pretty much never a good idea in pve
If you can use cheap shot, you’re in stealth, and if you’re in stealth, you have better options
sick kestrel
yeah i guess that empowered garrote and ambush is better
balmy condor
Ambush also trash yeah
Although with Non-blindside and subterfuge, on single target specifically, gar ambush snd is equal to gar mut snd
But uhh
Just don’t ambush from stealth
Easier that way
stuck tartan
u trade some damage for some combo points
south drum
On single target I would do gar/ambush/gar for the add time
balmy condor
Definitely shouldn’t do that
That’s pretty much the worst thing you could do actually
Any combination of double garrote from stealth is a noticeable loss
south drum
Over 1 sec of snd?
stuck tartan
on bfa it was something, cause atleast u got 3 cp
as garrote-rupture-garrote
but now its just...meh
balmy condor
Over 1 sec of snd?
That’s not the loss
Well it is “a” loss
But the main loss is that you’re just giving up a global for an extra 6 seconds of garrote
balmy condor
on bfa it was something, cause atleast u got 3 cp
The reason you double garroted in bfa was because of the damage from SS more than the cp tbh
south drum
But the main loss is that you’re just giving up a global for an extra 6 seconds ...
I'll take you word for it, but when I dummy tested it (havn't simmed it) it was a stronger opener