and in m+
#assassination
obsidian willow
the target cap sucks
if the mobs die really fast, sub rogue can do better cleave with just SS + BP spam lol
obsidian willow
nahh there are times when we clear raid trash where a sub rogue can out-dps me
frmo just SS + BP
all cuz the mobs died too fast after i pressed BF
balmy condor
That doesn’t really change the fact that sub gets curb stomped on 2-4 target cleave
It’s slightly ahead of outlaw single target, and then loses hard till 6 target, where outlaw caps out
fallow otter
all cuz the mobs died too fast after i pressed BF
hahaha wow
obsidian willow
yeah on fights that last longer than 5 seconds
main forge
It's great to a see a 7k burst with sub... but like my sex life its over in 5 seconds
balmy condor
You raid trash takes 5 seconds?
balmy condor
Well that’s what I’m thinking
balmy condor
Sub can win in 5 seconds, but trash lasts 20
obsidian willow
less than 10 seconds
balmy condor
So it’s gg
main forge
Then I see Arms and Fire popping up to 10-15k
main forge
FoK + DP would pump long term though
obsidian willow
trash will die asap
main forge
I loved that combo... The longer the trash lasted, the longer my DPS pulled away from others.
Doesn't help on the raid encounters with AoE....
Well we only have one that really needs mass AoE this tier it seems
Blizz is obviously on Christmas vacay... no blue posts for 6 days.
stoic needle
my great vault offers me 3 pairs of legs the week I'm crafting zoldyck -_- thanks a lot blizzard
supple compass
hmm 223 ring crit vers socket
to replace 184 haste mastery with socket
or 220 boots to replace 184
the second obvi right
balmy condor
Sim it
placid dawn
Man, there are 30 sin logs, these are truly dark times 😫
stoic needle
i'll be #31 then this week 😛
distant plaza
How do y'all feel about Master Assassin in m+? I feel like it's getting to the point around +12 that you have to chain pull and you rarely get to restealth
balmy condor
Master assassin kinda isn’t great for sin to begin with
But on sub it’s okay
If you can’t restealth, finality for sub
But honestly should just build zoldyck and call it a day
distant plaza
I started with Master Assassin cus I wanted a legendary going into heroic raid the first week, and I've had decent success with it using vanish for the shiv burst window
I have it at 225 rn, thinking about pushing it to 235 and saving for zoldyck or another after that instead of rushing it rn
balmy condor
Do you pvp?
distant plaza
Not often, but I got Skulker's this week, which means I can cheese some burst
balmy condor
Then I would forget MA exists and craft zoldyck
sand otter
The vault blessed me this week
gleaming eagle
i crafted zoldyck
for sin
because it has uses in pvp
and its good for m+ and raids
best overall
MA is only good for pvp
sand otter
MA is second best in M+
distant plaza
Although it may not be as good as zoldyck, I heavily disagree that MA is only good for pvp
balmy condor
MA might be second best on paper
distant plaza
Especially as kyrian, being able to guarantee crits on 3-4 envenoms during shiv buff is huge burst
balmy condor
but its really not that great
heavy trout
i crafted MA due to its flexibility. it's great to get your open world daily chores out of the way. otherwise, meh. especially if you know how great it was back then
in M+ it is a fun killer, definitely
cant really do fok spam like in legion with cloak and subterfuge with MA feels bad
so i wouldnt recommend it outside of pvp and open world stuff
or if you need a filler legendary if you are new to rogue and can't decide what to play yet
somber thistle
I found the bis dungeon gear link. Is there one for raid gear
balmy condor
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
somber thistle
oh , thanks >.<
balmy condor
np
stoic needle
this game is so fucking troll
i get a 200 charm of eternal winter necklace from my weekly quest cache and i already have one equipped
real bay
tw box?
stoic needle
yeah
they have done a really good job at making gearing fucking annoying this expansion
i get more duplicates than anything else
steep obsidian
ummm its better then last expac for that...
if you actually fill out your vault anyway
stoic needle
eh, not really, i got mostly bracers out of my weekly chest last expansion and the same trend continues this one
just because its slightly better than before doesn't mean it couldn't still be better
it shouldnt be possible to get a piece of gear you literally have equipped out of the weekly event box thats just fuckign stupid
echo cargo
I also thought in one of the dev statements that your Vault would correspond with the # of dungeons you ran of a certain type
which I could be misinformed about- but it's also completely not true lmao
balmy condor
it does
need 10 dungeons to get 3 pieces
and it calculates from your highest runs for each threshold
honest lake
How much do u guys are simming?
balmy condor
4600 in sin
stoic needle
4200
real bay
4300 or something
stoic needle
The ilvl of the stuff in the vault is fine, but there doesn't seem to be any protection from getting the same shit items over and over
balmy condor
the protection is getting more choices
stoic needle
The vault isn't really the problem, it's the weekly cache things
stoic needle
Like I said you shouldn't be able to get the exact same item you have equipped out of the cache
I have a 200 cn normal necklace and got the literal same item again
stoic needle
I mean the same thing can happen with a heroic one
It just feels like my time is being wasted
stoic needle
I effectively did 5 timewalking dungeons for an eternal crystal 
balmy condor
those weekly quests haven't given good shit for a long time
I don't remember the last time I did a timewalking
:P
stoic needle
It's just annoying to have the prospect of an upgrade dangled in front of your face and get literally nothing instead
I still have sub 200 ilvl gear in several slots
And I can't get any loot from actual m+ or raids so
royal lantern
I don't remember the last time I did a timewalking
i do
im still farming the mount
drifting cloud
2k isnt even that much on it
in 5 years
I know people who gave up above 10k years ago
stoic needle
what mount?
drifting cloud
infinite timereaver
honest lake
What is the main problem of sin?
stuck tartan
Numbers
stuck tartan
It feels that way for me
They tried to buff it with a 5% aura buff, but... still not enough
The rotatio gets smooth once you get good haste
honest lake
So feral druid is a better sin rogue than a sin rogue
stuck tartan
Basically
strange python
What is the main problem of sin?
numbers.
honest lake
I was thinking about second spec it
strange python
sup gang im gonna try sin tonight
much excite
should i make an ambush/mut macro?
balmy condor
no
strange python
wouldnt it make blindside procs ez pz
balmy condor
yeah but it's also jank
stoic needle
Sin doesn't have enough buttons that giving ambush its own bind is too much
fleet whale
well i wouldn't necessarily say that sin lacks buttons but yeah i was able to fit ambush nicely in its own bind
strange python
Yeah I was able to squeeze it in. Rotation feels so weird compared to 8.3 lol
fleet whale
people still think quantum device is sim bait smh
misty holly
Are Master Poisoner and Blindside close? I just did a sim showing poisoner ahead which surprised me. That talent was behind even elaborate planning during bfa.
balmy condor
sounds like you're simming weird
poisoner is okay, but it shouldn't be ahead of blindside single target
misty holly
maybe stacking with zod giving it life?
balmy condor
and it shouldn't be ahead of elab in aoe
zold doesn't help it that much
can you link the sim?
misty holly
It was dungeon slice... oops. doing a patchwerk now.
even so, didnt realize it was that close
balmy condor
blindside is pretty bad in aoe
misty holly
heres the patchwerk: https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gthL8HwtPYbikzWxeRgypW
balmy condor
misty holly
think it might be worth it for one less button... its pretty close
balmy condor
that is definitely a sim
balmy condor
think it might be worth it for one less button... its pretty close
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/p7rCRUuzrTDXDQ9X5ZPGW3 actually grows even more
also why did you not take a potency conduit
misty holly
really want a self heal...
luckily I'll be able to switch soon as I finish the covenant quest as another toughness slot opens
dreamy jungle
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
versed canopy
Why is assassination so low on the charts? Is it that bad?
balmy condor
yes
fleet whale
it's tuned low
fleet whale
so i may be late on this but
i have noticed now in the last sepsis hit
it generates a cp
or maybe not, something is giving me an extra cp though
low girder
sin specifically?
fleet whale
sadly no one was running logs in this normal run i did. RL who would was celebrating her BD
fleet whale
nah, just zoldyck. And i swear this was happening but it only seemed to happen with sepsis
balmy condor
yeah idk
I've looked at 2 logs
and the combo point generation doesn't seem weird
oh wait
fleet whale
i don't have warmode on
balmy condor
fleet whale
nor do i even have that talent selected
fleet whale
hmm so i may not be going crazy lol
cause it happened in Artificer after a mut, i thought it was a like a delayed Seal fate
but then it happened again on trash
calm dome
Varolyn are you playing on Zul Jin ?
calm dome
LoL I misread the Whispyr picture lol
balmy condor
I'm just looking at random players
calm dome
Stigid is not random player .
He is number 1 Assasin rogue in Zul Jin Horde when I am number 2 lul
balmy condor
fleet whale
i wish someone did logs cause it def happened on the artificer kill
balmy condor
16.262, the sepsis crits and gives a cp
after the mut overcapped both cp
@fleet anchor
fleet whale
makes little difference in the long run i guess
but it would be maybe a very minor dps increase?
balmy condor
won't force an APL change, but its something to keep in mind I guess
its like
maybe 3 cp if they all crit
fleet whale
it's a free CP without casting a global, but it's RNG
balmy condor
which is super super minor
balmy condor
in 5 minutes, that's 4cp, if you consider they all crit
faint harness
As sin?
balmy condor
with current crit rates, that's like 1-2 cp
like it doesn't change anything
2 cp in a 5 minute fight
faint harness
Huge gains
fleet whale
yeah, i didn't think it would change anything
but i thought it was funny i was generating a cp
without pressing a button as sin
balmy condor
yeah, I assume there's something weird going on, since sepsis generates cp, so that last tick is getting whitelisted
fleet whale
it's like a delayed kingsbane in that way
cause KB generated 1 cp, both it could generate 3
if both of the initial hits crit
fleet whale
sadly this is unreliable
and a 1.5 min cd
but yeah, i think that's how seal fate works interally
if something generates a cp
balmy condor
I'm kinda sad though tbh
balmy condor
the final bonk yeah
fleet anchor
Funny
fleet whale
appears to be yeah
balmy condor
its consistent as well
not talent specific or anything
just if it crits, it procs
fleet whale
inc 34% crit memes returning for sepsis CP
balmy condor
depressing that I put in time with subt optimizations in single target and he tosses it out of the window though
double garrote on hungering
feelsbadman
balmy condor
no
fleet whale
when i look at how sepsis works now, the SF interaction actually isn't as weird as i first thought
the final hit isn't a part of a dot, and is in fact not a tick at all
it appears to be like a separate attack
balmy condor
Yes
That’s how it’s coded
That’s why we had weirdness during beta with shiv only affecting the dot and not the bonk
When you apply it, it’s basically a nature damage garrote, no instant damage, so it doesn’t seal fate
The final bonk is instant damage, so it procs
low girder
big gains
obtuse ruin
Any buffs yet?
faint harness
Guesstimation: 2 weeks
mortal scaffold
just +2'd some 10 keys but i was lowest DPS each time 🙃
burnt kernel
Is sub beating out sin for dps in m+ and raiding? Never really was a fan of sub but most rogues I see are sub 😦
sleek umbra
sub = outlaw >>>>> sin
burnt kernel
so we are at the bottom for everything
balmy condor
Sin is unplayable in its current state if you’re looking to be competitive
burnt kernel
ffs
sleek umbra
sadly, yeah
main forge
We are capable of normal and heroic raid progression. There might be a handful of Sin rogues doing Mythic.
quaint lark
has anyone thought of a competitive haste stacking venthyr sin build? similar to NYA sin but obv nowhere near the haste levels
main forge
Sin rogues are straight dumpster trash in M+ right now. Sub and Outlaw do it better for many reasons.
balmy condor
has anyone thought of a competitive haste stacking venthyr sin build? similar to...
Not enough to make anything viable from that build
quaint lark
rip
balmy condor
The build worked cause corruption and shrouded suffocation
Not because of the haste directly
quaint lark
ah right, SS was huge
quaint lark
ive been thinking about it for a few weeks now but you're totally right..completely forgot about ss
balmy condor
It’s more like you need enough haste to make alacrity not worth
quaint lark
i just want to make my vampire bleed boi
balmy condor
And not really exsang good
I think it was somewhere around 75 or 80% haste baseline
quaint lark
they've got to change a bunch of venthyr things to even consider it tbh...door of shadows can also not even compete
might be too broken if you could use from stealth though
main forge
Soulshape is super mobile
but no damage either... and it really doesn't feel game breaking
stoic needle
Like
main forge
like they should give our sprint charges to be frank.
stoic needle
The night fae cov ability does more damage than flag
quaint lark
yeah was just considering soulshape since that can't be done while stealth as well
stoic needle
And soulshape is instant and has a speed boost attached
quaint lark
could be cool
stoic needle
Door of shadows being instant and usable in stealth wouldn't be gamebreaking at all
main forge
Yeah, it could very well be instant.
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
quaint lark
would be dope to get SS back in a conduit somehow
like mages and blaster master
feels so bad 😦
jade jewel
Can dream to see poison bomb at 6 % chance per cp. 8 would 👌🏻 and honestly bake in the toxic tiny dagger to assa its fantastic
Can dream hard
robust pine
can you really call yourself sin rogue, if you don't have two trinkets, applying poison to your enemies?
stoic needle
I got the Infinitely divisible ooze trinket, I love my ooze gang
balmy condor
Can dream hard
Don’t blame you for dreaming though, we all do it :P
fading wigeon
Whispyr are you good with log analysis?
balmy condor
Idk what you consider good
fading wigeon
I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Is there a guide out there that helps you look at logs better haha
balmy condor
Wowhead has a basic guide on how to read logs
They’re mostly logic puzzles, knowing what you’re looking for and where to find it
Comparing numbers and understanding why those are the way they are
robust pine
"Only puzzles I am fine with are "Connect the dots" with two dots"
dreamy jungle
jes need wait one more week till lazy blizzard buffs sin ...
balmy condor
Idk why people keep thinking buffs are coming this week or next week or this month
balmy condor
Frost mage is worse, yes
stoic needle
When do you think 9.1 is coming
balmy condor
Like March
dreamy jungle
becuase sin is undeperforming so hard in m+ that they have to, look at loogs its a 10+ point gap between the worst >frost dk
balmy condor
Would be a 3 month tier if you look past holiday shenanigans and short February
3 months seems pretty reasonable to me
jade jewel
It’s a solid raid love it - nothing wrong with getting to slap that smug vampire asshole around for a while.
dreamy jungle
y but not for pugs its cancer XD
fading wigeon
Wowhead has a basic guide on how to read logs
Thanks Whispyr
woeful wigeon
@balmy condor you dashing scoundrell is BIS single warcraftlogs sin rogue use all difrent once mostly always zoldyx/dooms and mark of master assasin in every difficulty
balmy condor
Correct
woeful wigeon
so less peeps using the dashing scoundr why then ?
balmy condor
Because BiS lists aren’t the bible
And most people just built zoldyck because it’s overall bis
Doomblade and dashing are both very close in single target
Zoldyck is closely behind
woeful wigeon
lets says whe can build exsanguinate again wud you go doomsblade then or dashing ?
wat i hope to be able to do in next patch tbh
balmy condor
We probably would go zoldyck
But exsang isn’t in the plan for this expansion
Unless they either buff it directly, or add something to increase bleed damage by a substantial amount
balmy condor
Exsang is the worst talent in that row
low girder
idk how they missed that lmao
balmy condor
It gets absolutely stomped on by alacrity
woeful wigeon
so more focus on poissn build mastery then or ? reall go for haste crit=versa mastery
balmy condor
Mastery is our worst stat
woeful wigeon
even with the poison conduits ?
balmy condor
Mastery is the worst stat
magic vine
does exanguate interact with bone spike?
pale dew
Yo heard mastery is good
balmy condor
It’s a good meme tbh
So many people are in some weird mindset
That poison damage will carry
And mastery is god
It doesn’t help that pvp had a cheese meta with vers/mast
sick scarab
super noob question.. for tyrannical .. still going CT or go full single targhet ?
obsidian willow
Is sin also bad in pvp?
vestal wren
covenants are in the pins
tardy furnace
Where can i see the pins? =D
vestal wren
either type !pins or press the ... on mobile and select pins or click on the 📌 icon if you are using the desktop or web version
prisma monolithBOT
tardy furnace
!sims
prisma monolithBOT
Simulations:
Herodamage: https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/
Bloodmallet: https://bloodmallet.com/index.html
alpine garden
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
primal terrace
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
stuck tartan
me getting mastery in all the items on the chest sad
real bay
yep
arctic cove
sup fellas, hows sin life going
vague coral
im sure this has been asked a million times. however i see no pinned post and not sure where to go. after a month i am finally ready on my rogue assassin to choose a convenant.
scenic jetty
pick the 5-th covenant
quaint solstice
Lol
solemn pier
im sure this has been asked a million times. however i see no pinned post and no...
If you're looking for a suggestion id advise pick the one you want/ like
Afaik they are all fairly close numbers wise
vague coral
If you're looking for a suggestion id advise pick the one you want/ like
are they that close? its more so i want to prep for raiding and mythics. this is and always has been my main. i only took so long because im "deployed" and been on and off the game out of depression so im really trying to catch up
vague coral
hmm ok. thank you. and thanks for not being dicks about it. i know its been asked a lot on the wow fb pages. ive looked it up before i came here and it seemed pretty close so i just wanted to make sure the info was accurate
solemn pier
^ that
Personally i really dig soulshape ( Night fae utility ability) and dislike the kyrian mini game of an ability
And ofc they might tune them in like 9.1 or whenever so the "best one" might change should the blizzard will it
stuck tartan
^ that
Personally i really dig soulshape ( Night fae utility ability) and dislik...
Same
And as sin I like night's fae more too because its a poison
So hey, more class fantasy
quaint solstice
Sepsis doesn’t stack with the mastery correct ?
iron orchid
hmm ok. thank you. and thanks for not being dicks about it. i know its been aske...
Personnally, i use night fae for soulshape, and the class spelle can be useful too. In M+ dungeons Niya soulbind allows you to get some mastery (eventhough it is our worse stat) to add more damage to poisons and bleed on multitarget. Also you can get one use of an ability normally only usable while stealth, which means with right timing you can get another silence from garrote or cheap shot one mob.
vague coral
see that was what i was affraid of is with updates the "best" would change. which is why i dont get why (i could be wrong) its also locked behind rep? like i know i read some things about how its going to be difficult to just switch back and forth. i think this should be as easy as talen switching tbh. but again i dont want to add to the ease of a game that ive watched become super easy over time
solemn pier
see that was what i was affraid of is with updates the "best" would change. whic...
ive heard its not that difficult to swap to a different one its switching back to one you already did thats a bit of a pain
vague coral
not talent switching but spec switching
yea thats a bit more of what i heard. but see where the problem lies with that? im sure this will be out a good two years and so more then likely the best will switch a good few times including back to one we already choose
solemn pier
Personnally, i use night fae for soulshape, and the class spelle can be useful t...
you dont get stealth synergies from using sep with garrote ( it doesnt silence or benifit from subterfuge)
iron orchid
Yeah no subterfuge, but i am pretty sure you can get the silence
solemn pier
not in my expereince i've retained sep buff as far as i can tell if i use garrote during that window
iron orchid
You benefit from your passive abilities as a rogue but not from talents or other game mechanics i think
I mostly use cheap shot anyways
solemn pier
well at least you dont Vanish and reset combat if solo anymore
iron orchid
I'm gonna try to get some footage of the interaction between sepsis and garrote to make everything clear
solemn pier
yea thats a bit more of what i heard. but see where the problem lies with that? ...
i mean we will see how Blizzzard adds to it over the course of the xpax for now just pick whichever one you like the best and run with it
vague coral
well at least you dont Vanish and reset combat if solo anymore
i never followed that rotation. i came up with my own and always have after looking at the "best" rotation. ive pulled some nasty numbers doing this and being lower ilvl
solemn pier
i mean as long a whatever youre fighting dies before you , how you accomplish that really isnt so important
stoic needle
It's not hard to switch to a new covenant and it's not hard to switch back either. It literally takes 3 dungeons in 2 weeks or 6 in one week if you prepare beforehand. The only problem is catching up on your renown but even that isn't that bad
stoic needle
well at least you dont Vanish and reset combat if solo anymore
Huh? Vanish still resets combat when solo
It's not worth switching covenants for a 1%-3% damage difference in my opinion. The level of raiding where that amount of damage will actually matter is only really mythic progression, and it doesn't consider the covenant bonuses in dungeons which are way more than 3%
solemn pier
Huh? Vanish still resets combat when solo
beta Sepsis would effectively cast Vanish and reset combat when the dot ran out
stoic needle
Oof
solemn pier
which was problematic
stoic needle
That's scuffed lol
solemn pier
yea i may not have expressed that clearly , my bad
stoic needle
All good :)
stuck tartan
fuck beta sepsis tbh
slim wagon
Does Sin require double Dagger or can it do like them Sub bois?
slim wagon
Thanks
balmy condor
Sepsis doesn’t stack with the mastery correct ?
Correct, only interacts with shiv
quasi ledge
Sepsis and perhaps Subterfuge combined are bugged, not checked without Subterfuge. But using Garrote during the Sepsis proc silences as if you used it from stealth, but also doesn't consume the buff - Obviously doesn't have the added damage benefit, but it's a decent bonus stopper
balmy condor
I don’t think it’s a bug
Garrote silences from itself no subterfuge
So it’s giving the silence effect, just no talent benefits
quasi ledge
It not consuming the Sepsis buff is the bug part
quasi ledge
But it's giving the "stealth" benefit of Garrote. Either way you look at it, it's bugged
balmy condor
I mean I guess
arctic cove
@balmy condor sin still trash tier 😦 ?
balmy condor
yes
arctic cove
should i expect next real buff in 8-9 months?
arctic cove
sad sad sad
real bay
would be hilarious if the garbage specs stay garbage for 6mnths
balmy condor
you mean sub in bfa?
balmy condor
sub in legion wasn't great either
real bay
only played it for mage tower
subtle imp
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
fleet whale
it was good in EN and Nighthold, just heavily leggo dependent while at the same time not bringing anything special
compared to the other two specs
ornate lake
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
ornate lake
39 assa parses in mythic CN, what madman is doing this? And doing much better than the sub rogues in mythic CN 😂
main forge
a complete beefcake
If my group had made it to mythic at this point, I'd totally be playing Sin on a farm boss or two lol
fleet whale
appears to be a Korean rogue named Peen that is just 100% dedicated in playing sin
inner lagoon
Hey quick question does the Doom blade lego , does serrated bone spike count towards that bleed item?
balmy condor
I don't believe so
inner lagoon
wow that is disheartening ok thanks
balmy condor
there are very few interactions, if any with specific covenant abilities and legendaries/specs
sepsis and shiv is about the biggest you'll find
stoic needle
appears to be a Korean rogue named Peen that is just 100% dedicated in playing s...
A hero to all of us
novel temple
anyone understand what this means? You may attune your Hearth Kidneystone to any resting location and return to it. 12 hour cooldown, reduced by 5 min every killing blow.
WTF is my heartlh kidneystone?
fleet whale
well, kidney stones aren't a pleasant thing to have
never had one myself... my father did though... he was in a lot of pain
novel temple
did he kill anyone, because if he did probably be in less pain
fleet whale
no, he eventually just peed it out
novel temple
I would rather kill someone
balmy condor
anyone understand what this means? You may attune your Hearth Kidneystone to any...
when you select that soulbind from emeni, it works basically just like the vulpera racial, you set the location, and then you can cast again to TP exactly back to that location
marble hemlock
mhye
fleet whale
how can you farm something that you can't even see?
dense cedar
Seal Fate should spawn a seal to fight for you for 5 seconds whenever it happens
only 1 seal per ability cast tho
balmy condor
balmy condor
not as cute as you
balmy condor
pulsar niche
hey guys, i m sorry for this question, but where i can find assassination guide here
dense cedar
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
pulsar niche
ow wow thanks alot
dense cedar
@gleaming eagle u read it
gleaming eagle
have you tried building vers gear and use iron wire
balmy condor
the dreams of a dead spec
gleaming eagle
15% reduced dmg is nothing to laugh at
dense cedar
If you say you wouldn't enjoy summoning combat seals when you crit
you're just lying
gleaming eagle
🦭
fleet whale
idk, i think the discovery of the big sepsis hit critting granting a cp
is huge for assassin, it's a top tier spec now
/s
magic vine
if they tweak sin up some more i think it'd be really good in some of the dungeons. like in sanguine there are a lot of casters, getting extended silences on those would be really nice if you weren't having to give up so much dmg to play sin
wicked fjord
just decided to look into leveling my rogue alt WTF DID THEY DO MY BABY ASSASSINATION??
balmy condor
Pretty much nothing except leave them undertuned
balmy condor
No ones playing sin xD
swift sky
pretty much
signal kayak
Im playing sin...dont care....Ill deal with undertune
wicked fjord
yea i'm being reemed this expansion so far
my main spec is a frost mage and my main alt is assa rogue
soooo
i do have a question however
some guides on icy-veins and wowhead isn't up to date, are the rogue's?
prisma monolithBOT
dense cedar
I found it weird they gave Sin rogue the ability to become a cat
balmy condor
I'm terrified of this upcoming punchline
dense cedar
dw there isn't one
im just happy with my nice bleeds
feels weird not using daggers tho
balmy condor
dense cedar
quaint solstice
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
quaint solstice
so..if the guides are up to date why do they say haste > crit > mastery > vers when the !stats says otherwise ? shrug
balmy condor
because stats are all very close
and haste > vers = crit = mast or haste > crit > vers > mast or haste > crit = vers = mast
quaint solstice
aahhh
balmy condor
is all pretty much just a generalized shorthand that's quick to give to people who don't know any better
stats change depending on the pieces you have
so if you pick 3 rogues at random, and see what their best stats are
you can get 3 different answers, very very easily
haste > everything else is pretty consistent
its the "everything else" part that shuffles and dances around a lot
obsidian willow
Is assassination bad for pvp?
balmy condor
its ok
shrewd pivot
is assassination competitive yet
am i missing out on anything
took a couple weeks off.
balmy condor
no
obsidian willow
But is it still better than outlaw for pvp
mortal scaffold
its ok
its not sub
hardest part is finding someone who wont tell you to go sub every chance they get
<--- 2.3k last season but can't find partners this season
but i wanna stick with assa to see how high it can go bc it's my favorite spec now
fleet whale
yes i would say that assassin is more viable than outlaw in pvp
internal bleeding is still a really good talent
it also still brings it's constant pressure that it always had
halcyon raptor
just poppin in rq, we viable yet?
fleet whale
fine enough in my raid
fleet whale
idk, we'll see for 9.1
raven egret
low hopes
halcyon grail
Me, being masochist at times, I began simming sin for shits and gigs. While waiting in queue for the sim, I hit the dummies a little, 1500 DPs behind sub, minimum, sim and on dummies with the same gear and both with BiS leggos.
fleet whale
blizz could still see saw the spec throughout the expansion
halcyon grail
And that's ignoring how AWFUL the rotation feels too.
fleet whale
the rotation really isn't that much of an issue once your crit goes up
halcyon grail
I do fine with sub. 80th percentile in my logs or more, was in 95th and 97th first week, BUT there's so much innate cleave padding that it's not ideal.
And the cheese has already begun in world of logs so it's even harder to get parses.
Literally every spec should still be aiming for their 33-35% Crit soft cap.
Sub feels like ass too without enough Crit to even gain it's FW outside dance and stealth
raven egret
i swapped to outlaw cause of how horrible sub feels outside dance
literally worst thing ever
halcyon grail
i swapped to outlaw cause of how horrible sub feels outside dance
But how much time do you spend not in dance though? Realistically it should be almost never..
raven egret
eh you have time to do 2 finishers outside of dance per rotation
balmy condor
The parse cheese is actually awful for sin
raven egret
it's just way too inconsistent i prefer sin for sure
balmy condor
You power infusion, you win, you don’t, you’re not getting 100
halcyon grail
LOL power infusion..
balmy condor
Yeah Idk why they added it back
halcyon grail
I had a hunter beg for it to beat me on Inerva
hybrid tide
So what does sin need to be raid viable these days? upfront burst is a sub thing, cleave is outlaw--an execute mechanic? buffed/contagious poisons? just another overall % increase? i just don't see anything likely to happen, which sucks.
halcyon grail
BEG. He was offering the priest gold lol
balmy condor
So what does sin need to be raid viable these days? upfront burst is a sub thing...
Pins
halcyon grail
Raid viable ? A complete.spec overhaul
balmy condor
That’s not true at all lmao
raven egret
assa speciality was 3 target council bosses
balmy condor
If it gets a 10% aura it would be the best progression rogue spec very easily
If it gets 5%
It would be viable
halcyon grail
Sure it is. There are still so many worthless talents, it's under tuned, cut to the chase should come back for starters
hybrid tide
it definitely feels the smoothest to play. rotation makes most sense, energy management is much more streamlined
balmy condor
That doesn’t mean it’s not viable without a rework though
That means you don’t like it
halcyon grail
Cut to the chase is a huge change.
balmy condor
It’s not really a huge change
halcyon grail
And in optimal use. Only have to apply SnD once
balmy condor
It would remove the button, yes
drifting cloud
pLEaSe i dONt wANNA Press SND
halcyon grail
lol right?
halcyon grail
blizz unprunes SnD.
Rouges; 'WHAT'S THIS NEW BUTTON IT FEELS WEIRD.'
Rogues; 'Welcome back, old friend.'
halcyon grail
Cats we still had cut to the chase though,
And wotlk
I want to say it was MoP/WoD sinnstarted feeling gross to play, and then it got better, and now it's gross again,
And I'll say it, antorus FoK single target sin was a stupid build that should never have existed. lol
shy dust
Bfa sin was fine
hybrid tide
i want deadly poison stacks/charged envenom back
(i also miss carrying around poisons and vanishing powder in my bag, so i'm not the best person to suggest things)
balmy condor
I wrote a Google doc out of boredom on what I would do with the spec if I could
On the topic of day dreaming
balmy condor
Want to see poison/bleed to be different mainly
I don’t think vanishing powder should come back tho
hybrid tide
lol, yeah.... probably not.
halcyon grail
Deadly poison stacks would.more than make up for us NOT having instant anymore.
For the supposed poison/bleed spec
Me when I saw we were getting instant poison back for all rogues; 'YESS!'
Me when I found out Sin only gets deadly and we don't get to double up; 'Fffffffffff~'
balmy condor
Why would you want instant when you have deadly
daring pecan
it's in the name, it's deadly 
balmy condor
Deadly is just a better instant poison
halcyon grail
I'm still about that WoTLK sin life okay?
Outlaws already using offhand daggers I want my instant and deadly combo back lol
daring pecan
good old blade flurry and instant poison on offhand for ridiculous aoe damage
halcyon grail
Bruh. The days.
hybrid tide
back when you searched and searched for a 1.6 speed dagger offhand
(more vanilla than wrath, but same energy)
balmy condor
But isn’t wrath deadly + instant = today’s deadly
balmy condor
Wrath deadly was dot, and it applied the other hands poison after like 3 stacks or some jank shit
And then instant poison, was well, instant poison
And now it’s just dot, and damage on reapplication
daring pecan
iirc it was 5 stacks and if it was at max stacks it applied other poison
steep badger
which is constant enough to say its basically the same thing just with higher instant damage and a dot, minus one application dmg but we're talking less than 0.01 overall
balmy condor
Yeah something like that
daring pecan
new version still better because you can run a non-lethal poison now
hybrid tide
dot was also consumed and then reapplied with envenom
steep badger
but dmg profiles
daring pecan
and also really old version was omega cringe with in-fight weapon swapping
steep badger
33.3 😐
when basically 1 of 3 muts was worth 4 combo points
and we somehow werent energy starved
spice spire
Less than 34 crit is actually trash 
steep badger
Totally, that's why we never got cthun pre nerf
just needed that dayum 1%, haunts me to this day
steep badger
nice, only expac i didn't touch
daring pecan
my favorite expansion
spice spire
Cata and mists
steep badger
was def there when i came back in mists
daring pecan
sub in cata 
steep badger
I've heard things
daring pecan
it was beautiful
spice spire
Combat rogue in dragon soul
steep badger
I tried sub when i came back to mists but wanted to vomit, quickly came back to sin
daring pecan
sub in mists, lmfao
steep badger
felt like keyboard GCD DDR
spice spire
“Here is some neat legendary daggers, but combat is brain dead and top dps until you’re full heroic plus these daggers”
steep badger
thats a set bonus, tricks did give you a boost in overall dmg
daring pecan
basically shadow focus
steep badger
TBC combat mace spec rogue rogue comps for 2's yo
hit 1800 in 2 hrs wearing t6, no pvp trinks lmao
which back then was more like 2200 now
was abrasively rude and actually felt bad to do after winning like 10 in a row
but two rogues spamming adren+bf+mace spec stun+normal stuns while still having blinds
daring pecan
what's worse, getting perma CC'd or getting one-shot by half the specs
steep badger
pom pyros fucking hurt but we had cloak, prob perma cc'd honestly
because you kinda feel like you could amost do something
where as oneshots you're like yeah that's fucked
care less
oneshots usually get fixes some way or another
ala kyrian sub (not RLY oneshot but almost kinda enough for bliz to do bliz things and ruin our fun)
steep badger
honestly think akkari's could use a tiny buff but can't complain in this chan :x
30 instead of 25 but that's a too long won't complain here where my bretheren are actually burning.
speaking of, whisp seems too chill tonight
whisp, we'll be ok right? sin SCALES well right?
should get his blood boiling a bit
balmy condor
:P
I’ve been having a good time
Pretty quiet days
Always nice
Got some chill music while I catch up on log reviews
steep badger
sounds lax
balmy condor
Yeah it’s a comfy vibe
hollow bridge
Hey whispyr where is your rework/changes document?
balmy condor
Uh, if you search in here for “from:whispyr#0001 in:assassination has:link”
Should be a Google doc
I don’t have the link on me atm
hollow bridge
Thanks
balmy condor
Discord search is hella sick tbh
hollow bridge
Yes, thanks for telling me what to search though
daring pecan
it's a nice piece of work
definitely going more in the direction I would like to see sin at
balmy condor
daring pecan
but then again, I would rework like 80% of our talents at least
I look at other classes and think "damn, our talents are fucking dry "
steep badger
I leveled sub planning on coming back to sin, ran like 5 mythics as sin then caved to the darkside
hollow bridge
I would remove all talents in WoW to be honest
talents should be utlity and flavour not dps choices 🙂
daring pecan
yeah, that's not happening for a long while at least
hollow bridge
I know, WoW designers love to go back and forth like pendulums between design. MORE LOOT! LESS LOOT! WOD even though it was panned as an expansion cos lack of content, somehow the design team figured that meant remove improvements
steep badger
cant task a small indie company with that kinda balance
hollow bridge
WOD had AA never missing for combat
lmao, good one synapse
WOD had so many things correct for rogues that I rerolled one from main paladin for years
They had extra CP space
so you could always use 5 CP finishers
it was 8 CP bankable
similar to paladins with HP and nothing using over 3 HP
I remember they also increased base energy for all rogues
so it was 120 120 and then 170 for sin
Sub was the most complex because you had to upkeep rupture SND and spam evi during dance
many players found it hard, in pre patch it was busted
hollow bridge
I think for me Sin got Mutilate as a talent way back when and for the longest time I have found pressing that button not very enjoyable, I want design to somehow make pressing CP generators fun
you can flame all you like, but people found Sub hard to play in WoD
it was combat or Sin
that were easy mode
daring pecan
playing cata sub makes everything else seem tame
hollow bridge
ah cata, my most favourite xpac
yeah very true
cata was the substantial rework into talents though
vanilla, tbc and wrath all expanded upon talents and introduced dual spec
but cata locked it so if u entered into a talent tree u had to get the final talent before being able to talent into other trees
anyways
balmy condor
correct
river bloom
is assassin good yet? Can i return?
main forge
It is pulling ahead of frost mage, but I am betting that is on the quality of the few last rogue bastions playing better than the frost mages
finite ridge
any assa pvpers here?
What do we think about Exsanguinate
At the end he reveals that the druid basically oneshot himself with mindgames tho so not sure
rose condor
Looks fun! 🙂
finite ridge
Does this work with Doomblade bleed?
balmy condor
doomblade does not exsang
finite ridge
hm ok
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
marble hemlock
its clearly cause hes necrolord
rose condor
necro bis
red edge
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
night swift
I'm choosing night fae, how should I use sepsis? Just set it and forget it? Or are any of the stealth only moves a dps increase?
loud mason
assasin been buffed yet?
stuck tartan
Nope
balmy condor
I did 1 key as sin, cried, and then went back to sub
stoic needle
i'm gonna take sin into HC i think
balmy condor
I was thinking about sin in heroic
But I’m parsing pretty high on sub, and sin just won’t keep up
loud mason
was it like this in bfa too, or is it just horrific in shadowlands?
loud mason
sin beeing horrific everywhere
balmy condor
Sin has been the best rogue spec since the start of legion
stuck tartan
till now
balmy condor
I’d argue m+ is bordering on unplayabl
loud mason
so il have to wait for next raid to see if some difference will come to it ?
balmy condor
Fine in raids though
stuck tartan
Yeah, m+ sucks bad
balmy condor
so il have to wait for next raid to see if some difference will come to it ?
Most likely yeah
balmy condor
I mean, when you’re in a pack of 6
And you fok 3 times and still can’t finish
Somethings not right
stuck tartan
and then sub is like hehe shurikens go brrr
loud mason
whats better atm sub or outlaw? for m+/raids
balmy condor
Outlaw for pve in general atm
pliant apex
sin still shit whisp?
balmy condor
Yea
We haven’t gotten any changes since the 5% on the 11th, and we won’t get any more anytime soon probably
somber thistle
Ive done heroic as sin >.<
somber thistle
i mean, ive always found it fun. so
mortal scaffold
why is ambush worse than shadowstrike in every possible way
fleet whale
ambush has higher base damage than shadowstrike
mortal scaffold
that wasnt the case when i switched between the two specs yesterday
shadowstrike also has a built in damage buff
fleet whale
that's mainly due to spec auras, when slaughter was legit just a copy/paste of ambush
it did more damage than shadowstrike if you were sub
delicate bone
is a good sin rogue better than a shit outlaw/sub?
lament wyvern
i mean depends how big that difference is but probably
delicate bone
im not 100% but i think its pretty substantial lol
lament wyvern
if a shit sub is doing 60% or below of their potential, and a good sin is doing 90-95%
that sin probably beats out that sub in all but the worst situations
like imagine if they gave sin a 30% aura buff instead of the skill difference, it would overtake the other specs
stone epoch
I tried outlaw without a leggo and not the best conduit yesterday for raid, I parsed terribly but my damage was only a little below my usual sin numbers on most fights
so a good sin rogue probably does beat a shit other spec, but the other specs also aren't too bad to learn if you wanted to swap
balmy condor
like imagine if they gave sin a 30% aura buff instead of the skill difference, i...
30% 
Bruh
dense cedar
nah that sounds pretty sick ngl
lament wyvern
thats what im saying lol, itd be the same as skill difference
in terms of throughput
its a totally unrealistic buff
fleet whale
are you in stealth/dance when you hovered over ss tooltip
mortal scaffold
im stealthed in both of those
dense cedar
i mean shadowstrike is their mutilate
fleet whale
get out of stealth
stuck tartan
but our mutilate sucks even more
fleet whale
and hover over the tooltip
stuck tartan
lmao
dense cedar
well ye
dense cedar
but comparing it to ambush is silly
stuck tartan
i just ambush with blind side
balmy condor
as you should
fleet whale
baseline blindside
balmy condor
free is free
stuck tartan
basically
fleet whale
and make that anima power that applies rupture with ambuhs
stuck tartan
i ignore it on sepsis
fleet whale
baseline
mortal scaffold
backstab
stuck tartan
cause fuck that energy cost
mortal scaffold
mut
dense cedar
mutilate does a lot more than its tooltip says
still not great but the tooltip is misleading
fleet whale
another problem is that that not a single dev has prolly even touched assassin in all of SL development
mortal scaffold
@dense cedar expand
dense cedar
Mut intereacts with both envenom and seal fate
our stats are too low for that to matter tho lol
fleet whale
i love how were comparing sin and sub abilities, when sub itself right now is very mediocre
dense cedar
is that no longer the case? @balmy condor
fleet whale
poison procs imagine
night swift
what does sin come out of stealth with?
fleet whale
cause deadly poison can proc from mut
balmy condor
I mean, it interacts with poison applications
mortal scaffold
im talking about pvp strictly
balmy condor
okay
dense cedar
so the bonus app matters
balmy condor
then that's fine
fleet whale
in wod we did have a perk though
dense cedar
again who gives a shit really cos it doesn't matter
balmy condor
sounded like you were talking like double dose or something
fleet whale
that made mut deal more damage with envenom up
balmy condor
and I had big ?
dense cedar
But Mutilate is more than its tooltip
mortal scaffold
also backstab is 35 energy wtf...
balmy condor
the reason why we mutilate > ambush without blindside
is actually pretty complicated as well
because of what van said
mortal scaffold
i wanna meet the dev responsible for assa rogues
i bet theyre locked up in the custodial closet
dense cedar
back when i used MA in legion
mortal scaffold
let me free u
dense cedar
opener used mut cos it was fun to start combat with a 4cp rupture lmao
stoic needle
i mean doesn't shadowstrike proc poisons too?
or is it the "double chance" because it uses both weapons
stoic needle
20 extra energy for an extra chance to proc a poison and the same damage seems kinda lame lol i think mut could stand to do more damage
balmy condor
and there's a "hidden" dps gain from using mutilate, because there's a chance for a free ambush with blindside
and it can proc seal fate twice
restive bluff
upcoming sin buff?
dense cedar
Sin's state rn makes these not really seem impactful
but when Sin is tuned well these things are important to its dps output
stoic needle
make doomblade and blindside baseline 
balmy condor
make whispyr's sin rogue baseline 
stoic needle
you should apply for a job as game designer at blizzard and put that as your job application
even if you dont actually want to work there
then they'd see it at least
balmy condor
lmao
stoic needle
i could absolutely see them denying your application but just ripping the rework anyway rofl
fleet whale
the only thing i'm not a fan of is making envenom a talent
honestly, i think blizz should be heavy poison focus first, with bleeds being secondary
stoic needle
honestly I dont particularly care either way as long as it's something that makes melee AAs not our top damage dealing ability
dense cedar
@balmy condor I think it'd work