seems like sin still terrible with that miserable 5% "buff"
#assassination
tough skiff
wind umbra
Hello! Sin having a hard time with Torghast? I just get completely wrecked past layer 4 lol. Any tips? 185 ilvl with wet noodles for daggers
balmy condor
Leeching poison, grab a bunch of defensives and pray
fleet whale
internal bleeding, leeching poison, and master poisoner
mandatory for torghast imo, hope you get red ink
outer lodge
Its brutal i did both layer 8's, but I did it with an arcane mage. Took us a long time
fleet whale
red ink didn't get nerfed, that was a wowhead error
dire spoke
@strange python
cunning vector
Why is there a sin pin in the sub chanel lol
balmy condor
Which one is a sin pin
cunning vector
Oh shit nvm im just dumv 😭
real bay
cunning vector
;c
stuck tartan
Came here looking for hope, but I see now there's none :(
deft vault
for pvp
strange python
d'oh
digital crystal
Came here looking for hope, but I see now there's none :(
Who needs hope? Learn to weaponize despair 
At the very least we can coat our weapons in salty poison and make it hurt for everyone else too
stuck tartan
If I'm salty everyone is gotta be
Man, and I was getting bored of sub already, rip me I guess
dry atlas
How does sin not bore you
stuck tartan
I press more than 2 buttons, and I like the dot stuff
And my problem with sub comes from WoD tbh
dry atlas
Didn't play wod so I wouldn't know if it felt bad
stuck tartan
one word to describe wod's sub: ambush
Too much damage with two buttons, I started to hate it
tepid grove
yo guys, does the trinket with poison stacks like, on "stacking" poison for legendary or mastery
sorry if I'm not clear
I don't know how to express myself xd
balmy condor
trinkets don't interact with mastery
balmy condor
not sure what you mean
tepid grove
it buff the nature damage
balmy condor
there is no interaction between trinkets and spec mechanics for sin
outside of shiv
dry atlas
It can say whatever, it's just a trinket damage proc dot with the word poison in the tooltip
tepid grove
okay okay
but shiv buff the nature damage and the trinket is nature damage so it should work isn't it
stuck tartan
that works If I remember correctly yeah
tepid grove
ooookay thanks
gray fjord
None of the nature damage trinkets are affected by shiv, correct. Was something I tested before beta went down/talked to Whispyr about a couple months back.
balmy condor
yeah usually trinkets aren't whitelisted
gray fjord
Also I'm dumb and realized why (at least I think I know why) the skulker wing is less DPS than the dreadfire vessel
Physical damage vs Fire damage (which I assume is not affected by damage resistance, unlike physical)
gray fjord
❤️
But yeah I realized it after looking back and forth for a bit.. xD
Idk how much % damage is lost from physical resistance, but obviously enough that even with a noticeably higher listed damaging hit that it is still less damage than the vessel
quiet junco
So I got the heroic skulker wing... from quest, is it legit or na
Imma look in 📌
balmy condor
its legit
quiet junco
Cool, wowhead shows it pretty low but imma sim an play wit it an see
strange python
wtf you got skulker from quest?
i still want putrid vial for pve over skulker right?
seems like more dmg output
then i want skulker for on demand dmg in arena i think
dark arrow
anyone able to solo Torghast?
plain thistle
yes, did "left wing" layer 7
and almost did layer 8 on the right one
right = upper reaches
dark arrow
wow... I haven't been able to get past lvl 5 first floor without dying
plain thistle
yeah, layer 8 last boss from upper reaches is just stupid, he cast for 10k and his melee does 14-16k 😦
need better offensive to kill it super fast or god tier defensives
dark arrow
whats your ilvl?
plain thistle
they buffed our defensives anima powers, go for it, we have a couple really good ones now
dark arrow
i'll give it a try. for lvl 1-4 I beat by taking my time and waiting for cd after every 2 pulls. took me 2-3 hours each time
nocturne orchid
we still in the gutter?
balmy condor
yes
nocturne orchid
welp at least i'm pulling decent dps on sub
amber egret
what layer are you talking about?
nocturne orchid
i think next raid might make things viable, hopefully
buoyant mauve
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
fleet whale
well i just replaced my crappy 171 gloves
with 213 gloves from the dungeon event lol
warm gulch
Assassination can be in the dumpster for ages, I'll still prefer it's kit over sub 
nocturne herald
I tried going sub but other than for random ganks it's just not fun
Though I will give it that the Shadow Duel talent for Subs is kinda awesome
nocturne herald
Yeah I ended up switching to combat > sub, especially after the pvp nerfs
lavish isle
you feeling the %5 buff? how do you as a mere mortal like me compare to sub st for example?
mortal = not a top 100 player/100% parser
balmy condor
the 5% buff does nothing
balmy condor
need another 10% for that
lavish isle
fakk, stuck with sub then even though assassination is oldschool love
stoic needle
Sub has too many moments that don't feel good as a normal part of the rota. As outlaw probably the worst feeling is pressing rtb and only getting buried treasure. It's way more bearable than the deadzone between dances as sub
lavish isle
true that but it needing another 10% to be st viable, thats alot
balmy condor
well
10% to be roughly equal
5-7% would probably be enough to give it a niche as an execute type thing
anything higher than 10% and it would be overbearing more likely
stoic needle
How likely do you think it is that we'll get the other 5%?
lavish isle
plus for denathrius its super good to have short burst cds for platform adds, reason i cant really go assass for castle, we lack ranged atm
balmy condor
not very
stoic needle
Like.... Ever? Or just no time soon?
balmy condor
not this tier
stoic needle
Yeah I figured as much
lavish isle
id say end of xpac
stoic needle
Wake me up when 9.1 comes 
lavish isle
last tier
stoic needle
Why do you say that?
grizzled jay
Sin will get another aura buff in 9.1, Blizzard just didn't want to pull a Legion and make your crafted Legendaries feel irrelevant if Sin suddenly became the best
balmy condor
ah yes, one spec gets ignored for an expansion
and is now the standard for all balancing
my favorite
stoic needle
The entire expansion jesus
fleet whale
and i would really hope for more than an aura buff in 9.1, like blizz should look at our level 45 and 50 talents
lavish isle
so the 16 years comment, irrelevant, we was talking bfa, old devs gone, they remember the short past, not 16 years of wow
balmy condor
fleet whale
blizz didn't want to go crazy with buffs and nerfs
balmy condor
you know what
you have a point
if you just ignore everything
cherry pick the part that works for your argument
and claim "history"
then I guess it works
lavish isle
we live now, not then
balmy condor
can't argue with that logic
lavish isle
bfa short history
balmy condor
or non-logic I guess
lavish isle
ofc its logic or u wanna mix in vanilla, lol what
obsidian willow
Is assassination doing better?
fleet whale
it's doing better
balmy condor
no
fleet whale
but not great by any means
strange python
easy rotation tho
fleet whale
but i will say
just about every dungeon i've entered this week
i've been number 1 or 2 through the whole dungeon
so either i'm an assassination god
or i'm with bad players
strange python
Zoldyck?
stoic needle
What kind of keys have you been doing
fleet whale
were timing the keys
low levels, i left my guild last week
so i've been scrapping whatever i can get
lavish isle
u know what, ill test it, cant be THAT bad
fleet whale
and these are against hunters and aff locks too
grizzled jay
the devs definitely want to mix in Classic
lavish isle
u got my assassination daggers tingling
fleet whale
and ele shammans lol
grizzled jay
this entire expansion is just Classic mechanics throwbacks
fleet whale
yeah, and i don't think it's a good thing tbh
balmy condor
lavish isle
true
stoic needle
They've been a thing?
grizzled jay
not as a raid consume
stoic needle
Were they like an enchant before?
grizzled jay
yas
fleet whale
it was a leg enchant
grizzled jay
well first they were an enchant on chest/hands/legs/boots, then they became the "free LWr enchant" like how Tailors got cloak and JC got ring gem slots, then they were removed
and now they are a required chest stam buff
(on the whole raid)
stoic needle
I agree this expansion has a lot of classic throwbacks but like
grizzled jay
I think it's like 8400 desolate leather for 3 raid days
stoic needle
Making arbitrary changes is blizzard's MO from day one
stoic needle
Yeah I don't really understand how they are required
Maybe if you're pushing mythic prog?
fleet whale
yeah for that
stoic needle
I think it's an effort to make professions matter again
Alongside the legendary base items
dark arrow
Torghast is crazy. Tried lvl 6 and failed on first floor. tried duo with a prot pally and failed on 4th floor.
balmy condor
yeh, I failed on 4th floor layer 7
had to get a group together
then it was pretty managable
dark arrow
a full 5 man group makes it easier?
stoic needle
Hmm
I tried it with 2 others and still got obliterated
No healer though
I guess it might be easier with a full grp
lavish isle
healer and me, was nice and rather fast imo
stoic needle
I think a healer is definitely mandatory now after the buffs
fallow otter
Mate and I 2manned layer 7 as 2sub rogues, it was pretty spicey haha
deft vault
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
north pewter
@balmy condor great spreadsheet man, thank you
balmy condor
I stole the entire layout and just ran like 5 hours of sims :P
I'm gonna fix the DS stuff tonight tho
north pewter
You know how a repost works. you get credit lol
balmy condor
true, gotta farm that internet clout
north pewter
the only thing i hate about it is how much drops off denathrius.
fallow otter
Whats the tldr, how far behind are we
north pewter
It's not too bad honestly. I raided tonight, and my ilvl even being pretty low, I was in the middle of the pack
balmy condor
after simming, and accounting for the couple gems
north pewter
still better than a warrior
fallow otter
My sub sim broke 5k st
Huntsman... Generals and maybe dance boss
Sire maybe even, outlaw gonna be better
Hopefully Red boi gets back up
gritty yoke
lmao that assa dot kek
scenic thunder
I'm still waiting for the pick pocket "system" to upgrade our vials
balmy condor
gonna be waiting a long time for that
scenic thunder
Maybe it was a bait?:c
balmy condor
I think it's pretty safe to assume that got scrapped
robust pine
Is this power works as intended? It only increases immediate damage which is useless
balmy condor
that's how that is intended to work, yes
balmy condor
I would be a little weary about those logs
considering we're 2 days in, and most of the top guilds are class stacking the meta specs
robust pine
layer 7, killed all enemies, collected all powers, even got jack of all trades, still can't kill second floor door guardian
balmy condor
yeah, I wasn't having any troubles in layer 6
but layer 7 destroyed me
the new floors seem incredibly overtuned
robust pine
i did layer 6 last week, but it was buffed this week, don't know if i can complete it now
balmy condor
yeah no clue what's going on honestly
it was already not really easy
and then got buffed?
really weird choice
bold ice
I did a 7 very easy with a dk tank friend....went to a 7 upper reaches and I left feeling like my out of shape ass just went into a boxing match against prime Tyson
We got rekt
Upper reaches can eff off
balmy condor
yeah I've been soloing every floor since release and today had to actually get a 5 man and run it
and even then, it was a little challenging sometimes with a couple rares
robust pine
if there is npc fight between prisoners, you can throw necrolord's infinite bleed and then vanish. And then they will very-very-very-very-very-very slowly die
cursive cipher
So to craft direct a legendary on Rank 2 i need 3250 Soulash right?
cursive cipher
Rank 1 I Need 1250 and Rank 2 2000 so i think i needed 3250 if I haven’t craft a legendary yet and would to craft directly Rank 2
balmy condor
rank 2 is more soul ash efficient technically
cursive cipher
Thanks - so I think is start with Rank 1 Zoldyck and think about if I upgraded it or craft another Rank 1 
stoic needle
layer 7, killed all enemies, collected all powers, even got jack of all trades, ...
you basically need a tank and healer to clear torghast now. good luck killing the final boss lol
ornate dawn
Such low numbers of recorded parses on Huntsman HC, wtf - wheres my sin mains at?
stoic needle
ornate dawn
When you compare it to the 36k hunter parses T_T
balmy condor
Sin is one of the worst specs in the game right now
And a lot of rogues went sub and outlaw
So if you’re looking for sin rogues
They’re playing literally anything else
warped junco
I'm sin and playing torhgast and soloed layer 7 last night XD
balmy condor
Not to mention that it’s pretty much unplayable in m+ compared to the other 2 specs
Torg is the only place I think sin can shine
Especially on higher floors you can just kite with dots
Most of the damage in there is melee hits
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
proper sage
Torg is the only place I think sin can shine
bis torghast spec and bis spec in pvp
sin needs to be nerfed tbh
warped junco
if you could get enough energy to get combo points to do that envenom sure XD
proper sage
echo gust
So sin is not bis pvp?
Im lost here. I want to play sin again in pvp. What leggo is good in pvp?
balmy condor
MA is pretty good, as is doomblade
balmy condor
They have the capability of critting yes
Most of sins gameplay in pvp atm though is vanishing into an envenom and hoping they just fucking die
vocal cloud
i also play bait
echo gust
Vanishing into envenom? What?
vocal cloud
stack CP, shiv -> vanish -> envenom
echo gust
Oh
balmy condor
Run nightstalker
vocal cloud
aye
balmy condor
Hit all your buttons
echo gust
Thats a weird combo
vocal cloud
that describes assass
weird combo 😔
but i kinda like it just for the memes
was doing some arenas for fun (im not a pro pvper so dont judge) and it was MM, balance and me
i was mostly the bait cos ppl freak out at rogues
echo gust
I think if they give sin another 7.5% aura buff wed be ok
balmy condor
Correct
echo gust
I doubt they aura buff us again
vocal cloud
we can hope...
echo gust
I really wanted to sin. :(. Sub is trash.
vocal cloud
i dont like sub at all but i did get a 190 poxstorm yesterday in case sin dies
thorn crater
i mean it could be they keep the relative sin power low because of what is prolly coming in next patches. i assume the higher secondaries will make it stronger no?
balmy condor
That’s called scaling, and it’s omega bait
We don’t use that talking point here
Stat scaling like that doesn’t really exist. If a borrowed power system comes into play that makes the spec really strong, then it’ll be good
But the stats alone won’t fix anything
cold rampart
single target kyrian or night fae?
vestal wren
they are close but kyrian should be atm slighlty higher
kyrian is more damage win for outlaw/sub (where the diffrence should be ~1-2%)
mossy hazel
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
strange python
fuck me took around 25 hours to get my phial
never ever ever ever doing that dungeon again
stoic needle
Dude plaguefall is fucking cursed
strange python
ya it was so bad
took like 22 wins and with pugs probs lost about 30
finally had to drop down to m2
stoic needle
2 runs last night complete failures
strange python
haha ya
stoic needle
Even at m2
strange python
yep had a bunch of m2 fails too
and now tanks keep going crazy ass ways and we always come up short on %
stoic needle
I didn't even know it was possible to call a m2
strange python
haha ikr
strange python
ya its rough
that dungeon is fucked
at m5 mobs were hitting for 25k with tyranical at last boss
stoic needle
Fuck tryrranical
Once I have more gear I'm just not doing any keys on tyrr weeks
It's not even worth it
strange python
haha yaa never again
vale current
assa is alright long as you're not in some CE guild I assume yeah?\
strange python
I hope so
stoic needle
If your guild isn't strict about performance and let's you play what you want, have at it
vale current
zoldyck i assume is the only reason we gucci-ish in raids?
High key think that's a HxH reference
strange python
gucci haha dunno about that
stoic needle
It 100% is lol
spice spire
It is an HxH reference
vale current
'mazin
spice spire
Dashing scoundrel is also really good in raid for many fights.
stoic needle
We aren't gucci in raids
It's just a matter of whether your guild minds carrying you or not
vale current
15% dmg increase when
spice spire
I’m getting oranges while the unholy dk 200 dps below me is getting greens :^)
main forge
I don't know... I see gucci stuff and I think trash so... we gucci
spice spire
So no, we’re not okay
stoic needle
Honestly
I don't want just another aura buff
Cuz our aoe rotation is kinda complete ass
main forge
Our AOE isn't the problem when we are falling behind in ST
stoic needle
They'll be like "+7% damage. See you in the next expansion!"
+X% of shit is still shit
main forge
idk trying to play outlaw and sub.... and they have much more depth and intricacies to them... where ours doesn't have much RNG to it
spice spire
I’d suck someone’s toes for +7%.
But I think a bleed buff for assassination would do wonders
main forge
having garrote and rupture on a target buff our haste or something
stoic needle
I want more mechanical interactions between our abilities besides VW and shiv
Yeah
Literally any kind of synergy
main forge
having SnD give us.... something besides white hit faster?
stoic needle
Snd should increase the rate of our DoT ticks 
main forge
maybe a random bonus combo point... uhh remove time from shiv?
spice spire
main forge
IDK something
like I mash buttons and have no clue what i am doing as outlaw and sub.... and I easily do more dps
I know sin like the back of my hand... I should do better than them.
stoic needle
The way that OL flows together is really kinds amazing
It's like a perpetual motion machine... Doing your rotation makes your CDs lower, and your CDs improve your cp and energy gen, so you can make your CDs even lower... And so on
main forge
like getting the right RtB buff and I felt like I had to change my play style... same with sub has some sort of interaction like that too
stoic needle
Sin needs something like that, a gameplay loop with some depth
There's probably 2 dozen viable ideas they could use in this channel alone to fix sin
But we're just gonna get another aura buff and ignored
main forge
They did none of them. they literally gave us SnD, and did the Shiv thing, and was like "BAM" stickered it and was like "Ready to Ship"
you could see how bad we were in prepatch... and then losing BFA borrowed power destroyed us.... no expedient, essences, azerite....
neat basalt
dumb question but with zoldyck do bleed/poisons have to be reapplied once mob is at 30% hp
stoic needle
Nope, their damage is dynamic with all of your buffs. No need to snapshot
neat basalt
cool thanks
proper iris
Nerf sin
rigid mango
Go back to pvp
proper iris
Go back to pvp
Nerf it pver
rigid mango
I'll nerf your typing ablity 
glad scroll
I look at the conduits and legendaries and can’t help but think with the raid/dungeon design sim rogue should be doing better than it is? So many mechanics require you to get off your primary target that shouldn’t the DoTs help with them being viable?
Sin*
hollow bridge
Jayco the problem is most of sins damage is auto attacks. 50% or higher in some fights
Sin is a complete dumpster
spice spire
LMAO, no. They have no extra utility
untold spruce
i don't think sin even tops raid dps atm xD
but blizzard fucked up torghast tuning so hard,i can't even solo layer 6 anymore
spice spire
I think the question was “is there anything outside of raw damage that sin brings that other rogue classes can’t”
Yeah, very very minimal, almost nothing that matters in raid
There’s nothing. Sin is currently a middle man by design. “Fairly good ST and fair Cleave” but is so under tuned that it accomplishes neither
untold spruce
i recently switched to outlaw and even without legendary the dps is already better
thou i love sin more
strange python
ooo the putrification phial scales with haste
real bay
hopefully we see more tuning after mythic is done
untold spruce
i hope so too even thou i raid mostly Heroic and try to push M+ as high as i can it still feels sad to see my sin rogue at almost bottom in dps during raid xD
real bay
my sin sims with shit weapon like 4k, outlaw 4.4
strange python
not bad
pearl surge
I'm personally not making any spec-specific Legs until I feel like tuning has been settled
strange python
my sin is like 3600
outlaw 4350
sub 4200
glad we can dual spec
as we sit in teh sin waiting room
tier 1 leg isn't that bad
i just use my MA for all 3 specs, saving up for another one rn
spice spire
MA isn’t bad, currently at 5 minute, I’m simming 4400 sin rn
With Zoldyck’s rank 1 though.*
strange python
ya its a good leg, just now getting used to it
starting in stealth, then vanishing
big deeps
pseudo hamlet
I'm personally not making any spec-specific Legs until I feel like tuning has be...
Same here, don't want to waste gold and ashes on them.
lament dove
well since you will only make 2-3 legs anyway, it's not that big of a deal to craft a lvl1, although I regret crafting zoldyck since I don't use it^^
stuck tartan
I almost crafted zoldycks yesterday
stoic needle
I look at the conduits and legendaries and can’t help but think with the raid/du...
The problem is that all of sins dots do no fucking damage
stoic needle
I'm personally not making any spec-specific Legs until I feel like tuning has be...
You might be waiting a while
Kinda ridiculous that the 'dot spec''s top damage sources are......
Instant poison procs and auto attacks
drifting imp
yesterday i parsed purple on sin and had a green shadow right behind me with about the same dps
real bay
drifting imp
i mean, playing sin is fun, if you can keep up bleeds and stuff and don't get energy starved. but it stops beeing fun as soon as you look at the dps meter lol
glad scroll
I’m at the point I don’t trust sims compared to how classes play in the live environment. Do you think if “top” players would work with the spec it would be getting higher average parses?
real bay
best players dont play sin
strange python
oh there's a few
glad scroll
Ah, I see. When I see the sample size of players being so low compared to other specs it makes me wonder.
strange python
its simple: its so broken that it takes everything you have to perform marginally well
stoic needle
Not worth the effort
drifting imp
i mean even siming your character you get 500-700 dps more just by switching the spec
strange python
haah yep
glad scroll
What is the definition of marginally? Are we taking a 5% difference or 20%?
I’m trying to figure it out because I’m getting my butt handed to me by all the ground effects in mythic+. Tanks aren’t positioning.
lament dove
@glad scroll that's why I'm leveling my ele shaman and will check out how the ground effects feel from a ranged PoV...:)
stoic needle
Marginally well means "15%+ worse than the other specs"
lament dove
also cleave
stoic needle
And "the worst dps in the game by a solid margin"
lament dove
also CloS seems to work on a lot less things in Shadowlands
drifting imp
but CloS is still my best friend
lament dove
or they just gave physical attacks magic looking lol
glad scroll
@lament dove I’m so tempted. I wouldn’t say I’m a “great” player, but I’ve got experience. I can’t help but feel if I was on another class I’d be contributing more.
I’ve maimed rogue since 08
strange python
haha ya we're all sin lifers p much
stoic needle
Join us in the outlaw/sub sin waiting room
stoic needle
Ye my first character was assasination rogue back in tbc
strange python
haha dual specing is actually p fun
still getting good sub ganks and OL is a nice change of pace with a crazy high skill cieling
slowly collecting sin gear as we wait too
untold spruce
i'm thinking of just staying sin since i don't do any high end mythic anyway
drifting imp
my hopes were shattered with those 5%
untold spruce
but i keep outlaw geared just in case
drifting imp
but i'll keep playing sin and suffer to the point where i might switch
stoic needle
My raid group doesn't care and would take me as sin, but I don't like feeling like a dead weight in raids
strange python
ya i have my outlaw to gear my sin
glad scroll
That makes sense. I got a sin memory for the legendary and a poison focused conduit and couldn’t help but think there has to be a way to make it work.
strange python
people get pisssssy in higher M+ and will kick you to spite themselves
if i tried busting my sin out they would be on me for my dps so fast
stoic needle
Yeah
drifting imp
getting the feral treatment feelsbadman
strange python
haha ya but then we burst down bosses like champs
OL when i'm on top of my game can keep up with with MM
but thats hard i have to be so focused
glad scroll
Even with Feral in BFA you had one person who was able to make it viable in higher keys.
I watched them on stream, it was impressive.
stoic needle
That's because the numbers were there to back it up
That just aren't for sin
Like, none of our abilities do any damage
We actually lose more from having to move for mechanics because most of our damage is from melee + IP procs atm
glad scroll
What’s the solution without breaking it in certain content? I imagine they’re worried if it becomes too good then it’ll force players from sub/outlaw?
strange python
oo that would be cool
stoic needle
And one of our abilites should get some kind of bonus for hitting a target with all of the dots applied
strange python
i'm the fifth or so highest geared rogue on my server and I have trouble even getting into m2
glad scroll
Like SnD provide more haste?
stoic needle
Mut or env
strange python
there isn't really a good solution rn, just gotta spam dungeons and hope you can keep up
stoic needle
SnD provides attack speed, but it could provide haste for sin
strange python
ya that would be sweet
stoic needle
All of the abilities have small changes between spec
lament dove
or mastery should affect dot speed as well
stoic needle
Imagine snd + exsang for "dot burst"
strange python
yes
pearl surge
Honestly, I'd prefer an AoE buff and a buff to dmg across the board to haste. Faster ticks means more reapplication, and more energy competiton
stoic needle
Dot them up, dump the whole dot in 1/2 the time
stoic needle
We need an aoe rework
pearl surge
Poison Bomb having a 100% proc rate would be great for AoE
strange python
I could see that with a talent
stoic needle
Sin becomes the uncapped aoe spec, limited by dots
Ol is the cleave spec
Sub the st spec
pearl surge
Nah, 10% buff across the board, Poison Bomb made base for Assassin, 50%+ proc rate. Done.
pearl surge
Lazy is what they do
stoic needle
strange python
haha
pearl surge
But it would fix the AoE, and fix the damage issue
lament dove
no aura buffs, make our dots do more dmg, that's what the spec should be about
not auto attacks
stoic needle
Agreed
strange python
tru
pearl surge
10% across the board includes dots
glad scroll
It would be more engaging for sure
stoic needle
But aura buffs don't affect AA
strange python
ambush was a step in the right direciton, just need our dots to do something and we have a cool littlte kit
pearl surge
Add AoE from PB and we'll go a lot higher in Mythics
stoic needle
It's only abilities
strange python
dot them down then spam ambush and finish them off
how it was for me in prepatch was aweseome
strange python
ya that would be sweet
stoic needle
We don't need an AA buff tho
5pt might be a bit too strong
But I would love to use ambush procs to spread dots
Sub gets premed
glad scroll
most content creators I watch online suggest that it’ll get better after the WFR, as people unlock soulbinds and better gear.
pearl surge
As far behind we are in damage, 'might be too strong' should not be a phrase we use right now
stoic needle
We deserve a way to apply a dot that isn't a cp spenders or fok/aa
glad scroll
Do you think adjustments to conduits could do the trick?
pearl surge
I don't see how DoT spreading fits the Rogue theme, though. DK, sure, but not Rogue
stoic needle
Scaling is fake news, and ignores the fundamental issues with the kit
pearl surge
And don't the players that give Icy Veins data have max-everything?
strange python
can't even get our dots off without zeroing out on energy forever
thats realllly fuckin awkward
untold spruce
i said before i wish we had a finisher that applies rupture in AoE
stoic needle
I don't see how DoT spreading fits the Rogue theme, though. DK, sure, but not Ro...
Fair point. I was mostly thinking from a usability perspective because our aoe is currently so scuffed
glad scroll
Dot spreading with garrote was the dominate style end of BFA wasn’t it? I know a guy I ran with did that on packs and did great multi target
untold spruce
like ferals have with rip in a talent
pearl surge
I usually go Ambush, Ambush, Ambush, Garrote, Rupture, Shiv, SBS x3 and either KS or SnD based on if it's immune to stun or not
stoic needle
3x garotte with subterfuge yeah
strange python
i wouldn't mind some aoe stuff if there is still good single target paths
ya all that front laded dmg feels better for pvp
you can kinda dip around the downtimes
pearl surge
@stoic needle - If they make PB baseline and up the proc rate it'll give us the AoE we want, no effort on our part, and fit the theme. No cap
strange python
still feels fuckin awkward tho cuz our front loaded dmg is so far below even like fucking monks
and you can't really rupture a few mobs at a time
cuz of energy starving
pearl surge
I COULD see an AoE frontal-cone Rupture. Something like Serrated Blades or something
strange python
ya that sounds pretty assassin like
stoic needle
That's a fair point, I always forget poison bomb isn't capped
strange python
can't become rets tho and be good at evertything, you should have to spec into an aoe build
strange python
high risk high reward
pearl surge
I played my UH DK today, 10 ilvl below my Rogue, he was hitting 3.5k DPS in a heroic while I halfa%$ed it watching TV
stoic needle
Ct is kinda scuffed because of the duration and cp requirements
pearl surge
My Rogue? Tryhard as Outlaw or don't bother as Assassin for 3.5k
glad scroll
It’s easy to notice some classes are “better” DPS wise, but it makes me wonder the specifics on why?
If it’s a tuning issue, couldn’t they easily fix that?
stoic needle
They could easily fix it, but they don't because blizzard
glad scroll
If they don’t fix it, why? To force players into a certain play style? I don’t know.
pearl surge
UH DK is better because it's uncapped brainless DoT spreading
stoic needle
Because no one at blizzard plays sin and they genuinely don't know how to fix it
glad scroll
@stoic needle I think you’re totally right
pearl surge
I seriously hit 4 buttons most of the time. 6, 4, 3, 1, 3, 1, 3, 3
stoic needle
This is what's so frustrating about being a blizzard fan, their development process is so fucking opaque, and so fucking arbitrary that you feel like you're in some prank'd tv show half the time
Nothing they do makes any sense and they never explain it
pearl surge
I don't want CT baseline. It eats energy, and we have crap that depends on Envenom. PB baseline would require no energy changes, no cap, and no chance of pulling add packs
glad scroll
I can’t remember which developer it was, but they said something to the effect of “I enjoy playing mage, so let’s work on it so other people have fun too.”
stoic needle
If they would just sit down and explain their goals for each spec, where they are currently and how they plan to get to that goal
That would do so much
strange python
ya i think they are just now starting to think about class identity srsly
pearl surge
I'm a manager by profession and, no joke, I'd start canning devs that tunnelvisioned on specs like Blizzard does
strange python
haha ya
there was a game that had a head in charge of each spec
was it guildwars?
stoic needle
It feels disrespectful to their customers tbh
pearl surge
Even if you don't play it, sit down with a handful of players and get constructive feedback
strange python
then they would always fight and make sure their classes didn't get fucked
pearl surge
GW2 was awesome
stoic needle
If a blizzard dev read through this channel they could fix sin by the next tier
pearl surge
TBH, if it was more raid-ish and less 'LOL, you're 80 so no gear creep' and boring, I'd still play
stoic needle
But they evaluate spec performance by warcraftlogs
Instead of talking to the community
pearl surge
They could hotfix Assassin by Sunday if they spent 5 minutes in here
Yeah, but if WarcraftLogs says we're s&%t, then why aren't we getting love?
pearl surge
Then they shouldn't be devs. Full stop
stoic needle
They just see low number and think slapping an aura on it will fix it
I agree with you
stoic needle
It's sad that players could do their jobs better than they could
strange python
what a meme
pearl surge
I've done programming, management and recruitment and can tell you Blizzard does not manage well, and their recruitment process has GOT to suck
drifting imp
someone posted this a while ago but i forgot who it was https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/752102824757952532/787220310725885962/37ot8s.png
stoic needle
Like what 'playtesting' are they doing of these changes
strange python
haha ya that cracked me up
stoic needle
Lmaoo
pearl surge
Sorry, the job is the job. You aren't paid to con others to play YOUR game. You're there to run THEIR game
plain thistle
yeah, thats not really us, sin works just fine
strange python
i mean i kind of get it, it seems like they dumped a lot into this epxansion and there is only so much they cann do
but like they did all 3 pally specs
stoic needle
In what universe does sin work fine
strange python
fuckers
pearl surge
My ONE hope is that the 5% bit was a little bump they are watching and planning on adding to in stages
plain thistle
we just dont have the numbers, everything else is fine, you are free to not like it
strange python
ya adding new functions is a bit of work
plain thistle
yes, they could make somethings better, but our core is fine
stoic needle
You are objectively wrong but okay
pearl surge
All Rogues are is numbers. We literally serve no purpose other than DPS
strange python
a quick % bandaid is all they can do until making new code
pearl surge
I hit FoK every once in a while
If I remember
And have energy
And have more than 3 mobs
untold spruce
just apply dots on AoE and be done with it i guess
plain thistle
you can complain about FoK cap and crit CP generation, but our AoE rotation is the same as BfA
drifting imp
and you still get only 1 cp lol
stoic needle
But without the borrowed power that made it good???
pearl surge
Yeah, WTF do Subs get 1 PER HIT for Shuriken Storm and we get 1 TOTAL for FoK?
stoic needle
That can't be fixed with just numbers
drifting imp
exactly
untold spruce
yep
stoic needle
When a spec has to have borrowed power to be functional, it is fundamentally broken
plain thistle
you talking about SS or EB here?
pearl surge
I can, and have, seriously done a 2-button rotation on Sub before....
SS, Evisc
That's all I do! SS, Evisc, SS, Evisc, SS, Evisc
stoic needle
Why does sub even have black powder
It's supposed to be the ST spec
But ya I'm talking about EB
pearl surge
I have no clue. Evisc is a DPS increase over BP
untold spruce
AoE finisher ofcourse
stoic needle
But it has sectech
plain thistle
But ya I'm talking about EB
thats just damage, how you say we cant be fixed with just numbers then talk about a trait that doesnt change anything expect give us more damage?
I played last patch without EB just fine, SS was more important
pearl surge
Well, I'm headed to bed. Maybe I'll wake up to an announcement for more Assassin buffs. Doubt it, but one can hope
untold spruce
One can only dream
stoic needle
I just mentioned EB because it was the more fun of the two. The main point is that our kit does not function without those borrowed power bonuses on top
Not in aoe at least
glad scroll
@plain thistle the entire game is just numbers. The point I think they’re trying to make is that the damage source right now for sin is fundamentally flawed compared to the other specs that do it better.
plain thistle
which can be fixed with what we have now, they could just increase FoK damage, garrote-rupture damage or buff our AoE conduit
glad scroll
That’s what I’m thinking but their argument is to increase the DoT damage because instant poison is the main source of damage right now.
At least that’s what I’ve taken away from the discussion this morning.
plain thistle
last tier I almost never played with EB and played with full haste corruption, doing really good damage, yes SS was really nice but SS was just a buff to garrote
strange python
SS helped a ton cuz you could get your dots down fast
glad scroll
That’s not even what they’re talking about needing
strange python
instead of having to build cp
its a free rupture
or snd or whatever
helps a ton
woven summit
Does Sin look better now in comparison to sub?
gaunt tree
Does Sin look better now in comparison to sub?
better? yes. comparatively good? nope
strange python
now we have to put down garrote/rupture/snd
with that huge awkard pause in between
then wait for our dmg to sink in
by that time we're toast
or you blew your entire load
woven summit
@gaunt tree Alright, thanks for info, will continue with Outlaw for the time being
glad scroll
I think it’s the “comparative” part that is difficult. Also depending on the type and level of content a person is playing.
stuck tartan
Everything sin can do, sub can do it easier
woven summit
Judging by previous expansions, assassination always started slow and then it somehow became the only viable raiding spec lmao
stuck tartan
Because the moment sub and sin are on par on dps, sin gets picked just cause you dont have to be on the target at all times
woven summit
but it's easier to make mistakes with sub right?
I don't know as I'm alternating to Outlaw now
plain thistle
Judging by previous expansions, assassination always started slow and then it so...
thats just not true
real bay
its the scaling meme
strange python
outlaw is the least forgiving
strange python
if you fuck up 1 part of your rotation your dps goes down to nothing
sub you dance and spam and have to be good at managing your defensives
woven summit
that intermission period before season 1 assassination was bad
but yeah they fixed it quick
and nerfed sub bad
glad scroll
Sin just felt bad to play to me in BFA until I had more haste.
strange python
and in your downtime putting on your rupture/snd is np
in sins downtime there is nothing to do at all
woven summit
@strange python yeah sub is considerably harder to manage, feels like juggling all the time, one mistake and entire dps falls down
glad scroll
“I can’t do that” “you don’t have enough energy”
strange python
you have opprutunity + rolls + between the eyes
- dispatch
all have to go in the right order or you boned
stuck tartan
“I can’t do that” “you don’t have enough energy”
Pro tip for playing sin: remove those sounds
strange python
like if you don't do your between the eyes first your dps drops
not managing rolls, dps drops
oppruntity is huge too
strange python
then you have all your defensives on top of that
and dodging
haha try hitting 4-5k dmg consistently
woven summit
you really need to track your stuff well
strange python
skill ceiling is high af
even your fucking charge you have to time
with yoru blade rush
ignore that and your dmg is down at least 1000
glad scroll
Key binds make sub so much easier in my opinion. It’s another spec where to function and flow properly you need a certain level of gear.
That way you can hit your CDs all around the same time. My issue with sub is tanks who don’t watch ground mechanics.
strange python
ya sub was actually tough to pick up at first
now its cakewalk fo rme
just have to really wrap your head around shadowstrike
stuck tartan
Sub its where most of my macros are tbh
glad scroll
Some fights I spend more time trying to position. That’s why I feel sin could have a great spot if they can work out the build.
strange python
ya thats how melee is getting fucked
twice as many mechanics but our dmg isn't boosted to match our downtime while dodging
while MM is hitting their target the entire time
stuck tartan
Sin can make position mistakes, but rotation wise with the energy cost feels shit. Sub can make rotation errors, but if u miss position you're fucked
glad scroll
I can’t decide I they need o reduce the mechanics for melee or just make it tougher for ranged.
strange python
i think the toughest part is the low hp pool
you have no margin for error in that regard
everyone else can kinda tank a few fuckups
or stand way back
liek plaguefall
glad scroll
Of course there’s a reason why right now in mythic raids you have 4 locks, 3 mm, and 2 fire mages in the WF groups
strange python
holly shit your apm goe through the roof with all the dodging
glad scroll
They can all cast on the move.
The first boss in plaguefall if you stand in the pool for half a second you can lose +10% of your health. If the tank doesn’t move it correct you can’t do anything.
strange python
yep and the mushrooms wil gib your ass in a second
you have to be wayyyy on top of it
weaving in an dout
gets so damn fast paced
stuck tartan
while the hunters go brrr
glad scroll
I don’t think sin should be “top” DPS but there is room for that playstyle in my opinion
strange python
i dont mind a hard class at all
stuck tartan
Too many hunters standing in the middle island doing "top" dps while not moving
strange python
just we're p broken rn
rogue is the genji class, you need to put in time to get good, and that's a good design philosphy for the class
most rogues have yeaarsss of experience
which is badass
stuck tartan
rogue main since tbc xd
stuck tartan
Tbh, if a game has a rogue class, Im all for it
stuck tartan
Too many people right now playing sub cause they see someone oneshot with it
strange python
those fomo subs dropped like flies with our last buff haha
ya but they suck
its hillarious
then they quit
haha
stuck tartan
And here I am playing sub suffering cause I dont see the 4 button of all the spam
my keyboard is suffering send help
strange python
ya the opener is easy now, it is known, but everything else is hard
but even then, its hard fr new players to juggle stuns
and keeped them locked down
so they get a few ez ganks then the shit hits the fan
stuck tartan
Yeah that's true
strange python
usually when they go up against someone with gear and everyone bursts now
so they get a few ungeared kills then get fucked
strange python
haha ya undergeared peeps are easy pickens
no matter what class you play
still fun tho haha
stuck tartan
cant argue with that
strange python
to keep it interesting i like to take on packs of undergeared peeps
like 4-5 at once
i can sometimes pull it off
they like to travel in packs for safety
serene glen
any1 playing if assassin and enjoy it?
fossil slate
I think the only people playing Sin are the ones who enjoy it
stuck tartan
I enjoy the gameplay of it, but I dont wanna see how my rupture makes the boss giggle
stone epoch
I’m in a pretty laid back guild so I still play it
stuck tartan
I would play it, but right now im doing mostly mythics so... its kinda sad
iron orchid
I'm playing assa in all content possible, farming the best M+ i can, raiding Nm and HM, but for now my guild and I are still pushing Hm raid, so I cannot go MM raiding. I have a lot of fun but I feel like I have to work harder than anyone else just to get very average dps
wanton comet
Hey, how is the 5% buff? Or doesn't feel any different?
heavy vessel
What if we had a talent like the anima power that consumes all dots for insta damage? Set up a big burst window then reapply everything. Too op in pvp?
stuck tartan
does shiv work on night fae's sepsis?
heavy vessel
Vanish consumes all dots*
stuck tartan
What if we had a talent like the anima power that consumes all dots for insta da...
I feel like in pvp that would be even balanced, cause right now the moment you go against a dwarf you're fucked too because of that window with no dots in your target, so no energy regen
heavy vessel
And the trade off of losing your defensive vanish.
Dot damage gets to s point you reapply everything then exsang. Then we have gameplay beyond “keep everything ticking”
fleet whale
i know for a fact that shiv does work on the final big hit on sepsis
i'm not sure if it works for the full dot though
stuck tartan
ok, thanks!
balmy condor
Shiv works on the full dot
drifting imp
dashing scoundrel on feet or back?
balmy condor
Feet
drifting imp
i see
balmy condor
You do you
drifting imp
i will keep that in mind
balmy condor
Difference between the two is pretty minimal
stuck tartan
doesnt the boots give more stats than the cloak?
balmy condor
Honestly don’t really remember
I just know the feet simmed better
But legendary slots in general
Are pretty toss up
stuck tartan
my 171 boots give 3 more agility than my 190 cloak so im gonna assume
stuck tartan
If I remember, its head/chest/legs > shoulders/boots/gloves/belt > bracers/cloak
right?
balmy condor
Yeah something like that
quiet junco
Can anyone tell me the cost, atm, of umbrahide leggings rank 3 which is ilvl 225
dry atlas
Head shoulders chest give the most stats
stuck tartan
isnt shoulder lower than legs
balmy condor
Can anyone tell me the cost, atm, of umbrahide leggings rank 3 which is ilvl 225
Entirely depends on your server
drifting imp
on my server rank 4 is currently at 450k lol
stuck tartan
Yeah, I suppose thats why its confusing
random fossil
hey guys, what are the raidbots settings to sim for m+?
dry atlas
Dungeon slice
random fossil
thanks!
stoic needle
on my server rank 4 is currently at 450k lol
Do the mats add up to 450k too? Oof
stuck tartan
in my server its more easy to buy than craft it
cause enchanters are smoking some crack or something
stoic needle
This is why I crafted MA week one
Now I'm always gonna be one level behind for my main leggo, so I can wait until the base item is cheap or a guildie can craft it 
primal zinc
!bis
prisma monolithBOT
Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz
split veldt
with subterfuge do we spam ambush at the start?
like garrote into amush
or just gorrote into normal roation
balmy condor
garrote into mutilate snd
balmy condor
correct
mystic charm
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery
stuck tartan
versatility = crit?
split veldt
im going crazy, what is this again
magic light
alacrity
balmy condor
versatility = crit?
yep
mystic charm
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
woven summit
damn
daring stirrup
I'm surprised my guild hasnt kicked me yet for bringing a sin to M+
woven summit
yeah in BFA the azerite traits helped
dim mirage
assassin is pretty 
balmy condor
the azerite traits didn't just help, they made the spec playable
woven summit
ah how I miss them, the knifes, the garrote trait
desert swallow
What kind of sorcery is this? lol
dim mirage
looks like a debuff hex
icy isle
What am I seeing? @desert swallow
stuck tartan
is this real life?
stuck tartan
true true
icy isle
I don't get it
fleet whale
that's why it's ranked "higher"
balmy condor
we're literally 3 days into world first race
judging mythic parses atm
is super troll
fleet whale
when a spec barely has any parses
it's screws with wclogs aggregate rankings
so it makes those specs look a lot better than what they are
stuck tartan
and mutilate sound
fleet whale
people unironically think sin is still good cause of vendetta
stuck tartan
he said vendetta's sound, not vendetta
fleet whale
but i do prefer assassin's animations and sound effects over the other two
stuck tartan
always
fleet whale
like i hate the shadow strike sound
stuck tartan
i like its animation
the sound i dont care
but whenever I ahve to use backstab i cringe myself
did outlaw's sinister strike changed animation for shadowlands?
stuck tartan
big oof then
in some races its fine, in others i feel like that animation sucks so bad
fleet whale
i think since legion a lot of animations are universal
dense cedar
Vendetta sound unbeatable
balmy condor
assassination is good because it feels good
pliant grail
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
lean marten
sub got clapped in pvp prolly assa is the way now
harsh sphinx
velvet terrace
sub got clapped in pvp prolly assa is the way now
still no
stuck tartan
sub got clapped in pvp prolly assa is the way now
how much did it get clapped
lean marten
delicate bone
assassination got a pvp nerf essentially as well
lean marten
hard. mostly kyrian rogues tho
delicate bone
envenom one shots were a thing
but now theyre not
so theres like next to no reason to play sin, most people were playing it in pvp for that reason
stuck tartan
wod envenoms did hurt like a truck
low girder
jk they never did update the note, but that nerf didn't apply in pve, anyway
not that anyone would take it lol
stuck tartan
who takes nightstalker as sin??? wtf
low girder
like he said, in pvp you did for a sorta cheesy build
balmy condor
pvp players
low girder
it worked though
rain peak
gleaming eagle
sinful island
!bis