assassination

[winter gale]

So with these 5% we need like another 5%?

Or?

[trail mica]

We need 5% every week until blizzcon

[winter gale]

Shit.

Assa is my favorite.

[trail mica]

It still plays similarly, just a bit slower. If you disable your dps meters you can pretend you are doing well and have lots of fun

[balmy condor]

5% more would be good

yeah

[trail mica]

Hopefully they add some aoe fix for sin like shrouded suff or echoing blades by 9.1

[strange python]

Wont be enough. 5% is like +125dps, and we are still the only spec that is sub 3k dps.

[steep hamlet]

can they buff assa

cant stand outlaw/sub

pepehands

[scenic shale]

Assasination buffed?

[balmy condor]

5%

yes

[scenic shale]

Xd

20% to go

[balmy condor]

more like 5-8% to go

but yeah

not enough

[finite oxide]

whispyr, how much of your total DPS tends to be your auto attack?

[balmy condor]

in sin should be like 20-22%

[finite oxide]

ok. just faffing around and making a few mistakes for a vague comparison I got 40%. lol

[balmy condor]

[finite oxide]

but I did sin once and sub like 5 times

[balmy condor]

I think anything over like

25%

you're doing something wrong

[finite oxide]

🤔

I'll check again

[balmy condor]

quick sims from raidbots

also give a breakdown

as a rough guide

[finite oxide]

...oh I read wrong it was 25.8%

with a few opener mistakes

[balmy condor]

yep

seems pretty okay

probably some errors still

[finite oxide]

40% would be like, if I had an aneurysm and flopped on my keyboard for a bit after finishing my opener

yeah garrote falls off

getting the hang of the nightstalker opener is tough, it's against what I'm used to

the space between vendetta and vanish trips me up

[balmy condor]

nightstalker?

[finite oxide]

I keep calling it nightstalker, I mean master assassin :P

I average 2744 DPS on a dummy...though I noticed my poison bomb was hitting the other target next to it. got my auto attack % down to 15% but it's still my #1 source of damage

[versed mica]

The fact that sin still has a master assassin talent while the leggo has returned just boggles my mind

[frosty bridge]

How are we looking with the 5% buff?

I suppose still below sub by a few percent?

[balmy condor]

yes

there's a pin

[frosty bridge]

Ah, sick. If we see buffs on wednesday it might still be good I guess

Gonna hold on crafting a legendary until then

[finite oxide]

ok yeah I just tested it on dummy thoroughly now. without a second one next to it. I did...fine. auto attack was 23%. averaged 2412, slowing down then stopping a few seconds after the second vendetta fell off. before that I had been tooling around as sub without really knowing what I was doing and in not-great gear for it and no leggo and pulled between 2600 and 2865

[strange python]

I believe the 5% was our buff.

[finite oxide]

I don't think I can spend another week not knowing if sin is going to get back to a place where if I'm pumping and everything's going right I at least break the top 10 DPS

so I guess I'm going sub

[frosty bridge]

Well, there is always hotfixes on mythic week

They might add another 5% or something

[balmy condor]

I wouldn't hold my breath

[finite oxide]

I feel like I want security with my spec, at least

and it feels like if I pick sub I won't have to move it around much this tier

whereas I have no fucking clue what's going on with sin

and that makes it harder to enjoy

I sort of don't understand sin's spec identity or class fantasy at this point either, since other specs get poisons and the utility that came with them

[dawn merlin]

are these balance passes already live guys?

[finite oxide]

the goal I guess is to power up our poisons with envenom but auto attack still makes up way too much of our DPS

not until tuesday reset

[balmy condor]

not until server restarts for each region

15th for NA, 16th for EU

[dawn merlin]

alright, cheers

[strange python]

Still wont be enough to make Sin competitive tho. 2500dps vs 2750 dps is still shit.

The spec is super fun to play tho

[balmy condor]

2500 to 2750 is 10% btw

[frosty bridge]

Zoldyck looks really good tho

[balmy condor]

and also would be good enough

[frosty bridge]

Yeah, I mean

[strong oracle]

5% buff doesnt look enough

even 10% is meh

[balmy condor]

10% would bring us to about mid pack

little under it

[strong oracle]

yeah exactly

5% wouldnt change anything

[balmy condor]

I think me and seli agreed, 5% is not enough, 10% would be playable for most people, 15% would be too much

[versed mica]

Really wanting to play sin tbh, not really feeling outlaw this expack. It sucks that it's so behind

[strange python]

Yeah. Meant if we get another 5% buff shit still aint fixed.

[balmy condor]

another 5% would be playable

[versed mica]

I still don't understand why I don't like sub in comparison to sin

[balmy condor]

wouldn't be BiS play on everything go go go build zoldyck fuck sub

but it would be "good enough"

[strange python]

Am I remembering the dps chart wrong then. Thought most of the specs were 3k+

Question Mark, not period 😅

[frosty bridge]

Still holding on building Finality

if sin gets anotehr buff on wednesday it's zoldyck

[balmy condor]

my sub is currently simming 4300

my sin is at almost 3600

[frosty bridge]

What covenant?

[balmy condor]

(not optimized for haste at all obviously)

fae

so 10% buff

probably would bring that to ~4k

maybe little over 4k with optimizations

and like 4k-ish vs 4.3k

that's pretty playable

considering sin is easier and less punishing of the two

[frosty bridge]

Does Sin scale good with stats?

As in, going later into the expac

[balmy condor]

you said the bad thing

we don't use those kinds of words around here

[frosty bridge]

I just asked 👀

[balmy condor]

ye

so "scaling"

[hollow zephyr]

How is sin looking after there 5% buff to everything. I really love sin sub is good I just loved the flow of sin

[balmy condor]

or the community perspective of "sin bad early expac, good later"

[frosty bridge]

Scaling is the forbiden word?

[balmy condor]

whichever you prefer

is omega bait

and not how the game works

[frosty bridge]

Well, some specs certainly are better with more stats than others

So I don't see how the game doesn't work like that

[balmy condor]

not really though

there aren't more scaling with stats so much as interactions with systems

[frosty bridge]

In that case some covenants will censored than others

Wlth renown levels

[hollow zephyr]

Thanks to who ever told me to check the pins that’s my bad I don’t come on discord that much so still all kinda new

[balmy condor]

sin since legion has actually been really good early in the expac as well

[frosty bridge]

Or are they close even with renown 30

[balmy condor]

they're close

the covenants also don't really have much interaction in that way

8.3 was a great example of it imo

having 70% haste out of combat on sin sounds cool

but realistically, that only worked cause SS was strong

and corruptions + haste trinkets pushed that build into exsang into viability

the moment SS left, exsang turned into a dead talent

and no amount of gear will fix that

[strange python]

@balmy condor ok so the specs are a lot closer than what I have previously seen 🤔

[balmy condor]

correct

if you're comparing bis list to bis list btw

sin will look worse cause my list doesn't include gems/stones

and miki's had stones and I think 5 sockets?

so that's not really a fair 1:1 comparison either

[storm perch]

Are you playing sin, Whysper?

[balmy condor]

I'm dabbling

mostly just doing the sim stuff though

sin wasn't good enough to play in raids (I'll try it next week though)

and in keys, we don't even talk about it

so I've been a sub gamer

[slender zephyr]

I reckon with legendary and covenant you'll do the same as sub

and sub is ganna get nerfed anyways ;-;

[balmy condor]

sub seems fine where it is

[slender zephyr]

yep, but people are destroying the forums about it. so they will nerf something

[balmy condor]

pvp nerf is likely

blizzard doesn't blindly follow forums though

[stable plinth]

Sub definitely getting nerfed in pvp

[balmy condor]

forums are a cesspool

and they know that

[lone oxide]

What else except ma and shiv conduit i need for that 20k envenom?

[balmy condor]

higher ilvl gear, mastery, and nightstalker

[slender zephyr]

i reckon when people get gear and sub will fall off

[lone oxide]

Is it works like cs shiv mark envenom?

Also what's the best cov for sin?

Fae?

[balmy condor]

sub doesn't fall off with gear though

no specs do that

[balmy condor]

all very close

[slender zephyr]

idk if its too early to switch :/

I really like assassination playstyle over subs

but dont wanna disadvantage myself

[foggy maple]

MM opening week should decide

Or 2-3weeks after with final tuning and raid data

[real bay]

there will be no assa data from mythic XD

[muted elbow]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery

[arctic cove]

Im doing last 5 bosses on normal this sunday, im thinking i should do it as sin so i get legendary? Should i

[lament dove]

I just got bored of sub, I couldn't wait for the dungeon to be over and get out
so I guess I'm bored of my 14 year old main
not sure what to do now

[balmy condor]

Not sure why you would go sin to get a legendary

[strange python]

Try to stop playing for a few days and see how you feel after that 🤷🏼‍♂️

[versed mica]

Goddamnit, I've been following guides, and forcing myself to practice sub, but I just can't do it. I do fine numbers wise, but ffs I hate the playstyle so much. I hope they buff sin more. Might just play sin anyway, assuming I'll probably just do better bc I know it and actually enjoy it

[bold folio]

Same. The only thing I love is Soothing Darkness and Black Powder

[frail fossil]

actually, haste amped sin played like shit

imo

[round rover]

Hmm wowhead giving different opinion to the pinned messages. any input?

[quaint sequoia]

Is 5% aura buff enough?

[edgy notch]

@frail fossil actually, no

[frail fossil]

i hated it

i much preferred playing with crit

i did play most of the time with haste but like

[stoic needle]

Right there with you. I don't want to try to find another main and gear up another character...

[mystic mirage]

helo

do u have any idea about talent of assa

[runic cloak]

still trash with buff ?

[vocal cloud]

[tawny barn]

after months of no changes and we get a 5% buff, are you fecking kidding me

[mint kindle]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[real bay]

blizz being careful to not buff assa too much

[tawny barn]

im legit fuming

[real bay]

late april fools joke

[tawny barn]

guess i have to play sub than fml

and unholy got 15 % nerf to mastery, i odnt even know what to say

[tropic jackal]

Sub is way cooler anyway. Shadowstrike animation makes me feel so cool 8^)

[tawny barn]

nah

sub is fun at start then gets really boring really fast

like havoc

imo ;0#

[low fossil]

agree

[tawny barn]

I feel blindside should be baseline, this would fix the ridiculously slow energy starved single target rotation

[tropic jackal]

I personally feel like theyre the same imo

After awhile they both get boring

Only thing I don't like about sub is when you get a mechanic that randomly targets you and completely wastes your dance

Huge rip

[strange python]

well sin might be good for pvp again since theyre nerfing sub this week

[tropic jackal]

Where are you seeing sub nerfs coming up?

[strange python]

blue posted about pvp tuning and "adjusting specs with high burst conditions"

[tropic jackal]

Ah I see. Damn.

[strange python]

a 3 rogue 3s team is top 12 in EU right now lol

sub gonna get nuked

[tropic jackal]

LOL

That's so stupid

[arctic cove]

@balmy condor are legendary drops for rogues not spec dependent in raid_

[tropic jackal]

You can be in any spec and get all the legends

[arctic cove]

oh ok

are people gonna give sin a try after the "buff" ?

[tropic jackal]

Pins says 5% is not enough to make it competitive with other specs

[random fossil]

where do you see this?

[arctic cove]

[strange python]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/class-tuning-in-progress-dec-15/771191/6

[slender zephyr]

Anyone got the deets on the 20k envenom trick ?

[random fossil]

i meant the team ladders for arena

[frail fossil]

oofers

like just

buff envenom

if they dont wanna buff dots

buff envenoms and mutilate

[patent ridge]

So 5% buff, but it still won’t be viable right ?

[frail fossil]

dont think so

[patent ridge]

Think assa need more haste atm

[strange python]

you almost have to take vigor for smooth play

[frail fossil]

literally buf mutilate and envenom dmg

sin plays fine with vigor

imo

[patent ridge]

That talent is there for some reason

[frail fossil]

buff energy regen and ST only spells

and like

sin is chilling

cuz it's possible they dont wanna make sin too good

cuz multi dotting would be so strong in castle

like it's a possibility of why sin is actual shit

[patent ridge]

Next raid tier I believe it ll be viable until then I’m removing rust from sub

[frail fossil]

i dont believe in the scaling thing

[patent ridge]

It’s been like that for fire mages since wotlk

They only play with a certain amount of crit

That is only reachable at the end

[frail fossil]

sin will not be better

than sub

cuz of scaling

[low girder]

Are we on the scaling meme again

[drifting cloud]

hello mata how do I scale

[low girder]

Oh boy

Lol

[frail fossil]

like

sin will be better

if it gets buffed

unless there's some like degenerate items/trinket interaction later on like mage with bracers and double on use trinket and shit on 8.3

[tawny barn]

dude have u seen shadow preists

they ranged and multidotters

come on that logic doesnt make sence

[frail fossil]

what do u mean ?

oh like they dont wanna buffs dot thing

[tawny barn]

buffing dots if fine in raids

coz we are melee

[frail fossil]

like it's just pointless speculation, but like, buffing dots wont mean it's the best dps spec right, it'll just be the best rogue spec

but those are just speculations so it's kinda pointless, mb on that

[ripe gulch]

5% to everything

is it really enough

[frail fossil]

no

it is not

[ripe gulch]

figured

[frail fossil]

buff envenom

pls

like why does melee is my most dmg on st

by a large margin

sin feels better on 2 targets tho

[real bay]

snd

[frail fossil]

yeah i know it's cuz of snd

but it just feels awful to see

[tawny barn]

doing bosses without blindside is just so bad imo, constantly starved just trying your best to keep up the dots lol

for mythic plus this gonna be so painful if they dont fix that

[weak tulip]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery

[jagged axle]

wonder if this 5% damage increase buff is gonna do anything lol

ah fuck i didnt read previous

[pseudo hamlet]

No. I mean... It's like 150-200 DPS more

[jagged axle]

maybe another buff and we're gucci

[fiery mauve]

yeah if that buff is big

[real bay]

it won't do

[charred wind]

Should i switch to sub to do torghast or is assassination good?

[plain onyx]

I did it with Assassination perfectly, but don't pull too much trash imo.

[main forge]

I heard Sub is harder in Torghast... but I haven't played it

Outlaw might be the better one out of all 3 to roll in Torghast, but I am running assassination with no issues.... Well besides layer 5 taking me over an hour to do the other day...

Getting crap anima powers sucks too... Best one was two back to back 15% agility and like 500 hp epic buff or whatever. so i had 30% more agility and 1k health per whatever it was

[forest swallow]

can confirm sub is hard in torg

hasvent tried assassin

sub has some dogshit powers

[main forge]

I think rogues do in general

[royal lantern]

rogue has dogshit powers period

all specs suck for it

[main forge]

like honestly after hearing some of the powers other classes get... I can't recall a single one that we get that is like "OH THATS REALLY COOL"

I mean we only got 10+ buffs to our anima powers since release

[strange python]

5% Sin buff incoming?

Lol I read the patch notes. Was just expressing excite

[main forge]

Don't be excited

But according to blizzard words, we won't see the buff until Maintenance on Tuesday.

oh nevermind... I saw a December 15th on the one... but the current hotfix notes say "On regional restarts"

I hope they hit 5 twice when they input the buff and we are actually getting a 55% buff :p

[bold ice]

I like the distract time bomb power

[dapper cairn]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[charred wind]

Is there a way to disable stealth stance bar in default blizz ui?

[urban marsh]

maybe there's a hidden multiplier for that 5% that could actually make a difference for Sin?

Nope, can't disable it with blizz ui

[teal mountain]

Icy veins is telling me to enchant my main daguer with Celestial guidance my off with sinful revelation, but I droped a better weapon and I already enchant it with sinful , should I put it in main and the other in off with guidance ?

[marble hemlock]

It doesnt matter what enchant goes on what weapon

[teal mountain]

alright so the best in main hand all time

[hollow charm]

How far should a 160 gear score be able able to solo Torghast?....i couldn't get the layer 3 final boss and highly dissapointed

[strange python]

1 try or several? Should be doable, but usually it's rather rough.

[hollow charm]

1st try....

ill try again at 170 lol

[upbeat osprey]

Getting good anima powers is v important too

[hollow charm]

ya ive noticed that..kinda luck of the draw

[untold spruce]

i've been able to clear both 6 layer at 186 ilvl so far

got quite lucky with the powers

[outer kernel]

guys u think the 5 % buff will help assa?

[proven ferry]

No shot !

[shrewd pivot]

5% is a lot

think of like 5% vers lmao

[fringe kraken]

5% should be enough to make it not so far behind the other specs

probably not enough to bring it on par though

[bright path]

guys can u be more specific?5% overall dmg buff?

sorry havent dug into it yet.

[outer kernel]

ye overall 5%

[real bay]

its still gonna be lowest spec

[distant sable]

Guess i should decide which way to go - stay assass or go outlaw since i've got the legendary recipes for both at this point

[fringe kraken]

fuck outlaw go sub at least you get to have daggers and swap back over when assa gets buffed

[distant sable]

ugh i hate Sub

i have shit gear right now as it is only ilvl 160

[real bay]

0 daggers ayy lmao

[fallen crypt]

I prefer assass playstyle, maybe im bad or slow but i dont really enjoy sub over a longer fight and i dont perform that well with it either, like how far behind is assass? I have crafted Master Assassin lego and i can make another one soon, thinking of making Zoldyck for assass raid.. Buuuuut i dont want to be a hinderence to my team just cuz i wanna roll assass 😐

[dry atlas]

Just like you said it, it's double ass

[summer horizon]

I said screw it and switched to outlaw for now

[fallen crypt]

How far apart is sub 'n outlaw then?

[dry atlas]

Close

[normal olive]

!bis

[prisma monolith]

Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz

[finite barn]

flat 5% buff is not enough

[summer horizon]

Nope

[hollow escarp]

are we excited for the new 5% damage buff?

[summer horizon]

I mean, any extra damage is good, but it's not enough to make Sin competitive in raid.

[main forge]

Might be enough for M+ without making it OP.

[drifting cloud]

[steep badger]

won't be enough for anything, and its not 5% overall when 25% of our dmg is white dmg

closer to just under 4%

[hollow escarp]

even with a 184 sin conduit, my character sims 18% more dps as sub than sin

[livid temple]

I mean I don't think it comes down to sin just needing a damage buff.. have 20%+ of the playstyle being you waiting for energy isn't great

[hollow escarp]

that was a thing in the beginning of BfA as well

and managing energy pool was always a core mechanic of the spec

sometimes we got away with it because of high haste

[rancid turtle]

EVERYONE GO ASSASS!!!

[sharp pivot]

Do you think it will help a lot ? x)

[vocal cloud]

[drifting hare]

is there any reason why almost non of the rogues in top 10 guilds havent got their leggy yet? are they waiting for number tuning?

just curious

[hollow escarp]

[pastel sandal]

@sharp pivot unfortunately not. the main problem with assa right now is the energy starvation, you just cant play your rotation properly. we need either way more haste or a better energy regeneration. a plain dmg buff wont fix that problem FeelsBadMan

[uneven summit]

if i was to craft zoldycks, what woud i craft it on

[sharp pivot]

ok 😦

[deep badge]

damn still not viable 😦

[hollow escarp]

legs is probably the best

https://www.herodamage.com/rogue/legendaries/1t-t26-assassination

[shell canopy]

Right now i'm playing Outlaw, because Sin is so undertuned right now, but i always preferred Sin. Should i wait with spending my Soul Ash? I could craft my Celerity Ring

[balmy condor]

This honestly made me chuckle, thanks

[balmy condor]

That depends entirely on how you play and how you want to play

[manic pond]

is assa better than outlaw for raid?

[sinful island]

what setup of consumables do you use in raid?

[stoic needle]

Not in any way

[sinful island]

?

[manic pond]

i figured assa scales nice with longer fights, like raid bosses

outlaw being superior in m+ cus cleave

[stoic needle]

Sorry, replied to the wrong comment, meant to reply to Joor

[stoic needle]

It would, except our dots do no damage

[manic pond]

so then outlaw is better

[balmy condor]

Stones, feast, agi pot, flask

[balmy condor]

Outlaw is the current best rogue spec by a decent margin imo, yes

[manic pond]

okay thanks

[loud mason]

i was gona make zoldyck legendary, feet or legs ?

[balmy condor]

Legs

[sinful island]

Legs

[loud mason]

and what stats do i want there 😛 ?

[sinful island]

haste/vers

[loud mason]

aight thanks for quick answers ^^

[summer horizon]

You need a ton of haste to make our energy regen good enough. I've only switch to outlaw in the last 12hrs and I feel like this plays so much better than Sin currently.

[balmy condor]

I think single target sin plays pretty good

It’s about as fast as it was in ep

[cold rampart]

!rotation

[balmy condor]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[cold rampart]

@balmy condor people in logs start by mutilate all sites says start ambush

so

[balmy condor]

You can read about it here: #tc-research message

[cold rampart]

cba

[balmy condor]

Aight then that’s your problem

Literally just need to read the first sentence

But if that’s too much then sorry I guess

[umbral rapids]

OMG WHISPYR

CONGRATS

[balmy condor]

What I do

[umbral rapids]

didn't see you were community figure till now

[balmy condor]

Oh

Thank you :)

[umbral rapids]

[calm verge]

have there been any changes to assassination recently

[balmy condor]

5% buff coming on tuesday/wednesday

[calm verge]

ive been playing outlaw and it feels like theres been a nerf to it atm am i wrong?

[balmy condor]

yup

only change so far has been sin aura buff, which isn't even live yet

[summer horizon]

Buff is already live IIRC

[balmy condor]

it is not

[summer horizon]

They did maintenance this morning, that was a hotfix

So unless we're getting another 5%?

[balmy condor]

no

[knotty bear]

The notes literally have a date on them

[balmy condor]

the 5% is on tuesday/wednesday

the blue post even says

that's on weekly reset

on tues/weds

the hotfixes are quest/npc, and mostly raid changes

[summer horizon]

Generally with the 1hr maintenance they do server restarts is what made me think it's live already

[balmy condor]

yeah those aren't the ones they're talking about here

it says 15th of december everywhere

to line up with NA restarts

[summer horizon]

Alright well it's been a long week and I'm confused. When I see hotfixes that need realm restarts and they did maintenance today I figured it rebooted the realms and the stuff was live. My bad

[primal zinc]

!bis

[prisma monolith]

Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz

[balmy condor]

:P no worries, you're not the only one confused

that's why I'm trying to be clear about it

[summer horizon]

I was really hoping we were getting another 5% on top of that lol

I went outlaw and holy crap is the damage significantly better. 😦

[balmy condor]

yup

[real bay]

blizz when theres no assa still in raids

after 5%

lol

[versed mica]

When using MA leggo, should I pick nightstalker or subterfuge?

[balmy condor]

subt usually

[versed mica]

Figured, thought I'd ask

[balmy condor]

nightstalker for the envenom cheese in pvp

if you're into that

[merry adder]

just 5%... tragique

i switched to subt with the MA leggo yeah, but not sure about the opener
should i rupture first or slice and dice?

[proven ferry]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery

[past mauve]

!guides

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
RH: https://www.ravenholdt.net/guides/assassination-rogue-guide-shadowlands-raid-dps/
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[flint pier]

hey guys

is assa still rly rly shit?

[knotty bear]

Yup

[bold hearth]

Has anyone done 2/3 target sims vs outlaw?

[flint pier]

is sub good for m+?

idk why i rly dislike outlaw and im coming back to shadowlands

and idk whether to play rogue, i mained assa rogue in bfa

[knotty bear]

Sub does well enough in M+ imo. Not as strong as outlaw, but not a troll pick

[balmy condor]

fuu's spreadsheet has the baselines

but the 5% buff isn't live, so there's no sims with that

[flint pier]

idk how the like azerite traits replacements wokr

[knotty bear]

Sin is dead in M+ and probably will be until it gets a rework

[flint pier]

i know in bfa u had to use different traits for m+ and raid

so do u have to have 2 sets of gear in shadowlands too?

[balmy condor]

not on sin

[bold hearth]

I'll take a look and probably do some sims on raidbots. I know the 5% doesn't make sin competitive in a ST situation, but curious if it puts it in a good place for 2/3 targets.

[balmy condor]

the tldr is that it competes with sub in 2-3 target

and outlaw stomps both

[bold hearth]

Good to know.

Thanks!

[balmy condor]

np

[fading coyote]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[pliant apex]

Is sin getting buff??

Oh still doesn’t compete with sub in raids 😦

[balmy condor]

5%

[pliant apex]

That good enough whisp?

[balmy condor]

nop

[pliant apex]

Oh

[real bay]

sin doesnt compete with anything p much

maybe fury war

[vestal wren]

sin would need at least another 5% buff to be even considered

[balmy condor]

^

[vestal wren]

idk how much the dk nerf impacts dps

but blizz could basically buff the bottom 4 by another 5% and nerf the top 3 by 10% and the balance would be somewhat reasonable

[balmy condor]

dk people saying ~5% overall

[vestal wren]

well ye

5% overall means they are still #1

blizz is way to carefull with nerfs and buffs

only creates the perception that chasing the op is the best call

[misty hemlock]

Member when assa was good? Miss that time

Now it's literally at the bottom. Feels bad

I hope they overbuff it so i can go back to playing sin

[merry adder]

i really don't like current sub and never liked outlaw so scraping the bottom of the barrel it is...

[soft shale]

you can go giga mastery/haste and zoldyck to become a ghetto warr

[misty hemlock]

I don't wanna be a warr in this state of balance either

[balmy condor]

mastery just isn't good enough with zoldyck tho

even then

[vestal wren]

basically the last 4 years ?

[merry adder]

you’d think a spec named after swiftly killing targets would be better at. swiftly killing targets

[verbal peak]

Lol, did I make a mistake when starting yesterday? XD

[balmy condor]

assassination has been the go to for 2 expansions straight

and now its weak

[vestal wren]

and now its weak
before the end of the first balance round

possible that blizz does more tuning before mythic opens

[balmy condor]

yeah of course

just atm

not too hot

[merry adder]

I’m stubborn so I’m sticking to it. we’ve got a bunch of fury warrs in my guild too so at least the suffering is shared somewhat

[fleet whale]

while it may have been the go to two expansions straight... assassination was also the worst rogue spec all of SoO

and pretty much all of wod

[finite oxide]

Is sub likely to stay on top for a while? Assuming there's no fights like Zul that make them spike them into the ground

[fleet whale]

well, sub isn't on top

[balmy condor]

sub isn't even on top

[finite oxide]

🤔

[fleet whale]

in fact, it's below average for raid

[finite oxide]

outlaw is higher in raid?

[balmy condor]

its on top for pure single target kinda

[fleet whale]

yes

[balmy condor]

but outlaw beats it pretty easily

on most fights

[fleet whale]

outlaw overall is stronger for the fights in this raid

[finite oxide]

ffs lol

[balmy condor]

definitely an outlaw game atm

[finite oxide]

guess I need an outlaw weap

[fleet whale]

sire esp

is outlaw

also, if sin wasn't so undertuned

this raid would be decent for sin as well

[vestal wren]

i mean due to our guilds hunter (i think we have somewhere between 5-8 hunters now, we had 1 or 2 mid bfa) they are only mediocre and rogue is op

[finite oxide]

argh, I can't decide whether or not to stick with sin or not

I'm trying sub and it's decent, playstyle-wise

[vestal wren]

i would wait for tuning

[fleet whale]

depends on what level you raid in

[finite oxide]

and doing heroic sin was VERY stressful because of how getting good parses still stuck me at the bottom

I'm in a...mid-tier guild I guess you could say? like probably not getting CE but getting as close as possible and intending on mythic

[fleet whale]

i'm surprised hunter isn't being nerfed

[finite oxide]

the most influential officer has a soft spot for sin and might be patient with me except on tight dps checks on mythic lol

[fleet whale]

and unholy dk nerf was not enough imo

[verbal peak]

Would you say Assassination is a decent class for a beginner to get the hang of? Or is it literally just a matter of learning the rotations and getting used to the class no matter which one?

Yes, noob here lol

[fleet whale]

it's def an easy spec to pick up

does a good job of teaching rogue fundamentals too

it absolutely sucks at leveling though until like level 40, cause the perk path it has is scuffed AF

[verbal peak]

I'm only at lvl. 15 so I guess I got a load of fun ahead of me

I got a month off work so thought I'd finally get into it as I've been wanting to for quite a few years so might as well get the membership to

[finite oxide]

sin is a slower spec so yes I'd recommend it. I think it might be less good than other specs for soloing elite mobs but that's just my personal experience

outlaw might also be a good beginner spec

outlaw's the one based on the original vanilla 2-button rotation at its core lol

...but it also has roll the bones so nm

[verbal peak]

I'll probably give it a go at some point to then, btw is the Sprite Darter wings just a cosmetic sort of thing?

[finite oxide]

yep

[stoic needle]

!bis

[prisma monolith]

Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz

[teal mountain]

why the bis leg is feet and not legs ?

[balmy condor]

you can't craft dashing on legs

zoldyck goes on legs though

[teal mountain]

ok ok I have zoldyck on legs so

[manic igloo]

Man that 5% buff that'll fix assas nice

[teal mountain]

you know a good assa who still play assa in sl and stream from I can learn ?

[balmy condor]

all the good sin rogues have switched

[fleet whale]

give assassin red ink baseline

and then it will be good

[teal mountain]

so true xD

[manic igloo]

lets hope more get made before reset

changes that is

[outer lodge]

This is gonna be a dumb question.... but the 5% buff is coming on 'regional restart' it says. Is that tomorrow with the normal daily reset, or the Tuesday rest?

[teal mountain]

tuesday

[outer lodge]

Ok thx, I jeep hearing different things

[main forge]

they reset the servers this morning.... and wondering if that was it

[outer lodge]

keep* -_-

[main forge]

but their original post seemed to point towards tuesday

5% is such a small buff that we likely won't even notice it.

[fleet whale]

especially with the squish, and the gaps we currently

5% will be like... 180 more dps.. not enough when sin is like 700 dps behind sub in sims

[stoic needle]

any madlads crafting lvl 2 zoldyck on tuesday

[main forge]

and sub is what at the bottom of the top 1/3 of dps too?

[honest rain]

hi why does my doomblade does like 2& overall dmg and ticks for 50 😄

2%

is it bugged?

[strange python]

nah sin is just ass rn

😦

[honest rain]

yeah but 50 dmg all few secs

from a legendary

what a wate of soulash

[strange python]

come back closer to the end of expansion

sin is gonna be good

reason im playing dk

[quaint dragon]

Quick question do I use CT instead of envenom at 3+targets?

[stoic needle]

Try doing a sim of your current setup and comparing the damage of doomblade there vs yours on a dummy if you think something isn't right

[honest rain]

mutilate does 830 dmg

so its rigth i think

[fleet whale]

well doomblade essentially makes mut deal 30% more damage (maybe a little less)

[stoic needle]

I haven't simmed with ilvl 200 gear yet, but in my current m0/pvp gear crit and haste are > vers which is interesting because the bis list suggests otherwise

[gleaming eagle]

sin ROGUE IS SOOOO WEAAKK

[real bay]

[balmy condor]

you maintain CT on 2+ targets if you take it, and don't use it single target. If CT is already up, you don't recast

[balmy condor]

stat weights pretty bait, and simming upgrades in relation to a set of current gear often does not reflect actual stat tendencies

[finite oxide]

I know "don't hold your breath," but given past adjustments in early tier, would a second sin buff be possible before the end of the tier or would they most likely wait until the next raid to slap on another aura buff?

[real bay]

5% is probably not final.. unless blizz has lost their sense

[lilac prism]

so 5% isn't enough then is the consensus?

[balmy condor]

yes

[misty holly]

Is it mainly an aoe problem? is 5% enough to make purely single target acceptable?

maybe they will do a seperate aoe fix

[balmy condor]

neither

5% isn't enough to make single target acceptable

and 20% wouldn't be enough to make aoe acceptable

I think what me and @marble hemlock agreed on (feel free to call me out bruder :P), was that somewhere between like 11-13% aura buff would make sin have its niche with zoldyck as an execute, and would be playable. Higher than 15% and it would be a little overbearing in raids. The problem with aoe/m+ is a more deep-rooted problem with the design of the spec itself, and it's reliance on borrowed power (poison bomb aoe/poisoned knives in legion, echoing blades/shrouded suffocation + a little bit of scent of blood in bfa)

without meaningful, direct, targeted changes, or a borrowed power system that creates that gain in aoe/cleave, sin is kinda shit out of luck in regards to m+ viability

it still has vanish reliance through the second row of talents, which sub and outlaw don't have to deal with, it doesn't have the poison niche that it used to (numbing + shiv dispel is a baseline interaction, and assassination actually suffers from it since shiv is a damage spell), it doesn't have gouge like outlaw, and provides no utility that the others don't, outside of iron wire and cleave silences, which while nice, are not enough to outweigh the massive disparity in every other regard

[marble hemlock]

fully agree

well, outlaw kinda needs vanish these days

cause of CTO

but ye

[balmy condor]

yeah, its sorta coming back

but they also push the cooldown of vanish way down

so kinda makes it a little irrelevant again

much easier to plan ahead for a vanish skip or something when vanish is a 50 sec cd and not a 2min that enables a spec to function

[misty holly]

The odds of Blizzard giving sin a new spell this expansion is basically zero... what could they even conceivably buff to help.

FoK could be buffed to almost mutilate damage, but I suspect even that wouldnt be enough.

and it couldnt go higher than mut

[balmy condor]

well they could bring in something like EB, and make it ridiculous

we didn't think much would happen in bfa after azerite traits

but then corruptions came in

and we were all of a sudden with blood, essences, corruptions

staring at crit cap

and having to actually get rid of severe corruptions, to maintain under crit cap

we don't know what blizzard has planned for 9.1 or 9.2

there could very well be a system, like essences, like azerite, like tier sets (which they've all but confirmed at this point)

which could bring something in

[misty holly]

I suppose there is hope for 9.1 then. Wasn't sub good in 8.0 but nerfed too hard in 8.1?

[balmy condor]

the game in recent years is made and broken in the systems of an exapansion, not the actual spec most of the time

rogue for example doesn't suck in torghast, but rogue powers in torghast suck

the same way exsanguinate sucks, really hard (its like 6% down compared to other talents), but with SS and haste corruptions, it was relevant

sub was good through legion and into uldir because of a passive they had

that increased eviscerate damage depending on targets hit by fok

it was added originally since they didn't really have any meaningful aoe or cleave

as a way to give them a niche of the "funnel" spec

build a ton of resources off of the trash around you

and just funnel all that into a boss

uldir then had zul, which was an add fight with a boss

a wet dream for that passive

and it was so overbearingly strong, that the entire fight devolved into a "feed the sub rogues more souls for the funnel" strategy

[misty holly]

lol

[balmy condor]

so blizzard didn't really have a choice, and removed the passive entirely

and then ignored sub for most of the rest of the expansion

[frail fossil]

[balmy condor]

this was 90 percentile zul on mythic

at the end of the tier

sub comfortably 10% ahead of unholy

[frail fossil]

ngl i wish i had to play sub during zul

shit must've been so fucking funny

[balmy condor]

the strat was literally "grab like 5 sub rogues, sit them on the boss, and just make sure the adds go into the meat grinder"

and you would tell the rest of the dps to try and avoid cleaving the adds unless necessary

[frail fossil]

lmfao

[balmy condor]

because you had to keep them alive for the rogue

to fok

[frail fossil]

literally a whole raid grp simping for rogues

i wish i was there to see it

tbf

if they had capped the shuriken combo passive

[balmy condor]

it was capped

that's the worst part

it was already capped at I think 5 stacks

look at this shit

and tell me that this is intended

45% of the damage is sub rogues lmao

[frail fossil]

hahahahaahah

[balmy condor]

like, I don't blame blizzard for getting rid of the passive

[frail fossil]

and like the dmg breakdown

[balmy condor]

its what they had to do

[frail fossil]

is 2 spells

right

evisc and shuriken storm

[balmy condor]

yep

[frail fossil]

lmfaooooooo

[balmy condor]

the crawgs were the fuel for the engine

[frail fossil]

nah man i want a bfa classic

just to play sub rogue on zul

[balmy condor]

actually took shuriken tornado as well btw

shuriken tornado into all your cooldowns, and then just hit the evisc button

unimaginably high burst dps

was super silly

[frail fossil]

omggg

that must be so nutty

[fleet whale]

shuriken tornado is still a terrible talent that needs to be removed

[balmy condor]

I think shuriken tornado is actually one of the more interesting talents on a rogue

[fleet whale]

idk, i think it's trash, a talent that just auto casts storm

is not interesting to me

[balmy condor]

its a burst aoe cooldown that still has the funnel mentality and breaks the gcd

and it has a slight delay

[frail fossil]

i mean it's funny

[balmy condor]

it requires a bit of thought

[frail fossil]

but also it will never be used

[balmy condor]

not a lot

[frail fossil]

unless super niche case

[balmy condor]

but its definitely more interesting than like

dark shadow

[frail fossil]

yeah

MOS is like kinda zzzz

[fleet whale]

i mean i actually like dark shadow, it needs to do more

[frail fossil]

sec tech is fine tho

[balmy condor]

yeah

[fleet whale]

Enveloping shadows just turns sub easy mode

with pretty much no drawback

[balmy condor]

in my ideal world

in terms of aoe

[frail fossil]

i think like bfa post zul nerf, with black powder

was fine

and remove the gcd issues

cuz like i agree with fuu

[balmy condor]

sub would do the least aoe, but funnel again
outlaw would do the most aoe, but bursty
sin would do the most cleave, and given the chance, could ramp up to big aoe

that's my dream

of niches

[frail fossil]

yeah

what if sin get a malefic rupture kind of thing

like imagine

[fleet whale]

that would require the devs giving rogues a good amount of attention though

which is very unlikely

[quaint dragon]

!stats

[prisma monolith]

**Shadowlands: ** Haste > Versatility => Critical Strike => Mastery

[balmy condor]

there was actually a beta version of exsanguinate

that basically made your bleeds explode

in aoe

[frail fossil]

yeaah dude

this is what i want

[fleet whale]

i think a legion artifact trait did something like that too in legion beta

[frail fossil]

exsanguinate feels fucking bad man

[balmy condor]

then it was scrapped for aoe exsang, and then scrapped for the current iteration

[fleet whale]

like Blood of the Assassinated trait did something like that at first

[frail fossil]

[fleet whale]

before they changed it

[balmy condor]

I also think they can bring back subs multistrike concept from wod

[quaint dragon]

I put zoldyck on legs?

[balmy condor]

multistrikes used to advance rupture/garrote ticks

[balmy condor]

yes

[fleet whale]

why do spriests and balance druids

hog up so much dev attention though

[balmy condor]

idk

but like, could do something with rupture on sub now

like if you crit with storm, and the target suffers from find weakness and rupture

it advances rupture 2 seconds

or some shit

would be a lot more interesting imo than fok bp fok bp fok bp

you'd have to actually sort of plan your ruptures a little

would also get rid of all the "you don't rupture on sub kekw lulululul" idiots

[frail fossil]

those are some goodass ideas man

like ngl one of my main grip is that rupture in m+ when mobs dies long is quite like

annoying to maintain

cuz it's a finisher

so being able to extend it

means u can rupture

and do other shit

[fleet whale]

there are a ton of good ideas for assassin

[frail fossil]

after

[fleet whale]

but sadly blizz just ignores the spec

[frail fossil]

but like i want sin to be that cool multidot spec

cuz multidotting actually owns

like they nailed it with affli lock

[fleet whale]

blizz prolly saw that envenom one shot vid that pika posted

and went like "assassin is good"

[balmy condor]

ngl, the shiv legendary that spread bleeds

I don't like how it functions, but I like the idea

[frail fossil]

sin legendary are the best

imo

like they're kinda fun ?

when i read the tooltip i actually wanna craft them kinda

[balmy condor]

there's a lot of idea though

like seli has had his ideas

I've thrown mine out

random people come in and come up with ideas

some good, some uh, less thought out

but there's just nothing showing that blizzard wants to iterate on the spec

which is disappointing

[frail fossil]

yeah like

they literally did nothing on SL

when it was the perfect moment to do it

like, u loose all that weird azerite which fills out ur aoe damage etc

just do a proper rework

[balmy condor]

did nothing in bfa either

[frail fossil]

they basically used azerite to fix sin lacks

[balmy condor]

they just got rid of the artifact, and replaced it with azerite stuff

[frail fossil]

but like they took off azerite of sin

and gave it nothing

[balmy condor]

yup

[frail fossil]

so u're just out here

[balmy condor]

and thats why we're here

[frail fossil]

with half a kit

[balmy condor]

sin, since the legion "redesign"

has been a spec deeply reliant on borrowed power

[undone pasture]

Thats unfair to blizz. They renamed toxic blade to shiv

[balmy condor]

true

[shy dust]

Lots of specs

Have been reliant on borrowed power

[balmy condor]

mb random blizz employee reading this

[shy dust]

It’s not unique to assassination

[balmy condor]

its not unique in any way

[shy dust]

Nor do I see an issue

With borrowed power

[balmy condor]

but I don't know of things that break quite as much as sin without borrowed power

[shy dust]

Given assassination was strong most of bfa

[frail fossil]

shiv animation

is so bad

like give me back toxic blade wtf

[balmy condor]

like sin aoe is actually just non-existant without it

[frail fossil]

that shit looked cool

[undone pasture]

Just add kings bane, there i fixed assa

[wet condor]

is assa viable after buff?

[drifting cloud]

depends how you define viable

[wet condor]

can compete with sub and outlol

[drifting cloud]

then no

[magic light]

pins

[balmy condor]

yeah, pins exist

[finite oxide]

you might not get kicked out of heroic but I can't see you being competitive for a spot on mythic, I guess is one way to put it

unless your guild is chillmythic

[balmy condor]

the 5% buff is basically your guild going from laughing at you, to "man I'm sorry that your spec is shit"

[wet condor]

I didn’t except an is assa viable pin, sorry lol

hahah

[balmy condor]

that's the difference

[wet condor]

I mean I only play sub, but I like assa. But the gameplay feels shit

like hitting 3 buttons in one minute

[round fern]

anyone know the best legendary to craft?

!guide

[balmy condor]

!bis

[round fern]

oops meant to post in subtlety

[balmy condor]

why did moroes ignore me

[prisma monolith]

Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz

[loud mason]

with zoldyck insignia do i pick master poisoner?

[balmy condor]

no

[loud mason]

do u have an short note on how to use elaborate planning ?

[balmy condor]

you don't have to think about it

play your rotation normally

and it just provides passive damage

[loud mason]

shoudnt i like have combo points ready high energy for 2 finishers or something

[balmy condor]

nop

[loud mason]

alrighty :> thanks

[balmy condor]

my pleasure

[peak jungle]

Any idea what is the disparity in dps is between sin and sub when it comes to M+, taking into consideration the 5 percent buff?

[balmy condor]

maybe 25%

[peak jungle]

eesh

[balmy condor]

actually might be closer to 20%

not entirely sure

either way, its bad

[rustic juniper]

sin vs outlaw or sub in mythic plus is prob the worst comparison

single target is what sin does well mechanically, numbers wise its still bad

[halcyon raptor]

assass viable now?

[balmy condor]

no, there's a pin

[halcyon raptor]

damn word, ty

[split grail]

Did they add the thing where you can pickpocket ingrediants to augment crimson vial? Cause I've never gotten anything

[balmy condor]

nope

they mentioned it at the start of alpha

and then never did anything with it

[split grail]

Dang, so they nerfed CV for nothing 😦

[frigid kestrel]

I see people using double Lightless Force. I was under the impression that double of the same enchants don’t work.

[balmy condor]

no, they work

[frigid kestrel]

O shit

[balmy condor]

double lightless is the preferred

for m+

[frigid kestrel]

They proc more often I’m guessing?

[balmy condor]

the reason we didn't double in bfa was because the uptime was so high

[frigid kestrel]

Ahhh ok I get it then

[balmy condor]

so double enchant just overwrote the other

and wasn't good

now the uptime isn't really that high

so double celest is kinda fine too (its a little down)

[frigid kestrel]

@balmy condor you are the literally best, thanks

[balmy condor]

[sinful cypress]

Been assassination since wrath.
Now that it is on such a bad state, I was wondering what I could recicle into.
Toyed around with the other two here and there. Sub was too clunky, and combat was too fast, to me. Suggestions?

[balmy condor]

well if you don't mind being behind

you can still play sin

[sinful cypress]

I don't plan on anything super-competitive... but it just doesn't feel right

[frigid kestrel]

Sub (to me) didn’t seem like a Huge change from sin so it was an easy adjust. I been playing pure sin since BC myself and the second Sin become something even halfway decent im swapping back. I just think if I swap back now imma get sat sometime during Mythic Prog.

[crisp zinc]

quick question: Is it intended that you can refresh a rupture to a lower duration ? (when you use it with lower combo points then the one that is already on the target)
I'm asking because on the case of slice and dice it doesn't allow it, it says 'a more powerful spell is already active' and I think this was the case for rupture too when I played rogue a long time ago but I'm not so sure...

[frigid kestrel]

If your just playing casual and shooting for AOTC only or less you will be fine as sin

[balmy condor]

yes

[crisp zinc]

humm why would you do that for? (aside from accidently click on it)

[balmy condor]

you wouldn't

[sinful cypress]

thanks! I'll try sub see how it feels

[sinful cypress]

You wouldn't.
It's the same case as with empowered rupture/garrote. The game lets you overwrite them, but you'd want them to run the full duration

[crisp zinc]

that doesn't make sense that you can overwrite rupture with a weaker one and not slice and dice...

[spice spire]

!bis

[prisma monolith]

Whispyrs Bis list: http://tiny.cc/76r5tz

[balmy condor]

slice is actually the weird one

[fleet whale]

well i just got a 200 lethal poisons conduit

[dusty vault]

is there a channel or pin for weak auras?

[balmy condor]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[dusty vault]

ty

[fleet whale]

generous of blizz to have the conquest vendor sell a 200 lethal poisons conduit

for just 200 conquest lol

[finite oxide]

so sub is the spec of setting up the perfect burst windows - the "attack from stealth" fantasy. outlaw is the rolling dice and "playing fast"rogue fantasy to reduce the main CD. what is the fantasy / gameplay focus of sin supposed to be? I feel like that hasn't been clear since like Legion

every spec has poisons again so it's not about poison utility, poisons aren't that big of a part of our DPS esp since we don't stack mastery anymore

[main forge]

Its our biggest part of our DPS. Mutilate doesn't hit for much, envenom is just as weak... and deadly poison and white hits are our biggest contributions to damage

[stone epoch]

I always felt like subtlety as a name fit the whole bleeding a guy up and using poisons to get an advantage. Where sub's leaping out of shadows and big one shots fit the assassin name better.

I guess death by a thousand cuts is supposed to be sin's fantasy though

[main forge]

They really had someone that has never played rogue design our anima powers didn't they?

just got two vanish ones, and then got one.... that gave a +15% bonus to my finishers, if the finish is "behind" them... I got this solo

[finite oxide]

you can vanish and stay in combat if you attack IMMEDIATELY without being on a GCD, or apparently blind

[balmy condor]

Correct

[frigid kestrel]

%15 extra damage on a single finisher every minute is op af. It’s anima powers like this that make Torghast easy af for rogues to clear solo

All jokes and trolling aside, the distract anima power is super legit.

[finite oxide]

the one that gives us all 3 spec CD's at once is an exciting one

[balmy condor]

its hilarious having 6 cp and 200 energy as sub when you get the vigor talent as well

weird sight for sure

[finite oxide]

is torghast easier as sub? I simply couldn't beat the golem boss as sin at 185 ilvl with zoldyck

at level 5

[balmy condor]

yes, sub is the spec of choice

[stoic needle]

this is what i've been saying for weeks

[fiery mauve]

Does serrated bone spike count as a bleed for doomblade

[balmy condor]

no

[fiery mauve]

Sadge

[stoic needle]

I just did sun king and xy'mox as sin. Sun king was so fucking scuffed. Sin feels awful in a hectic aoe fight like that. We really need some kind of way to spread our dots or they need to do way more damage or give us way more energy regeneration to correspond with the effort required to get a lot of dots up

[plush oasis]

I'm just here to say I miss assassination.

[stoic needle]

xy'mox was fine i guess. the ST rotation is fun enough

[fleet whale]

at 180 ilvl i destroy things in torghast as sin

[stoic needle]

kiting is really effective in torghast as sin. I did a 6 solo easy today

what if.... poison and bleed DoT crits exploded in a small aoe for 50% of the damage

[nocturne orchid]

DUDE

5%

LMAO

[balmy condor]

we're past that already :P

[nocturne orchid]

sorry i just read it

[balmy condor]

yeh I'm just memeing

[nocturne orchid]

i just want my comfy dot stacking

[upper spear]

sooo, anyone still playing this spec?

[balmy condor]

Nop

[finite oxide]

96 parse on Darkvein normal, 13th place, I quit LOL

[shell ivy]

I miss assassination 😔

[balmy condor]

We all do

[plain onyx]

[calm dome]

1st time in Castle mode Normal
20 players
6/10 down in one run
Made it in the Top 5 Dps Overall and top 4 on all the bosses ( died nearly after pull on one of them )
Spec Sin and proud of if !
We are not dead yet :)

[swift sky]

you do realize this just says you had underperforming dpses and not sin being good

[finite oxide]

I got sat on artificer, a single target fight, despite parsing well, because I was on the low end of DPS

I'm done with this spec <_>

[balmy condor]

He didn’t realize it when he posted a dungeon meter where everyone was at 2-2.3k overall

So I don’t think he’ll realize it now

[finite oxide]

I literally won't get to raid progression if I stick to sin rn so I'm scrambling for a slow main hand atm

it was fun while it lasted bois

keep the dream alive

[swift sky]

dream was dead long ago

[calm dome]

I just want to say : we are not going to be the worst and bad DPS on every run .
Even if the sims say that.
You can still perfom well and reach top DpS

[swift sky]

that’s literally mathematically impossible?

[balmy condor]

Well yes

If you play with bad players

And you’re slightly better

You will do better

[swift sky]

i swear even bad players mashing keys could outdps a sin rogue if on the right class

[balmy condor]

But the comparison shouldn’t be from people who can’t play

[finite oxide]

I've parsed 74 and had 50 parses ahead of me

[swift sky]

[balmy condor]

Trust me, if sin weren’t dead

I’d have played it in raid

[echo gust]

is 5% enough is my question

[calm dome]

@swift sky not every thing is related to maths

[balmy condor]

No

[swift sky]

sure whatever u say

sin rogue good

[finite oxide]

sin rogue is very competetive against prot paladins

[balmy condor]

Actually true

[calm dome]

You understand my point ?
At least, try
If I listen to you . If I make more DpS than one player , with the same ilvl . Its juste because hes bad ?

[balmy condor]

I mean

Yeah

If I play against a sub rogue as a sin rogue

[calm dome]

You can still make good result with sin
That what I mean

[balmy condor]

And they don’t beat me

They’re bad

If I go into a key against an outlaw rogue

[calm dome]

Agree with we compare with Sub

[balmy condor]

And they don’t beat me

[finite oxide]

sin is going to be 100% untenable in mythic

[balmy condor]

They’re bad

Really bad

And that’s not just sub and outlaw

Because we’re arguably the worst spec in the game right now