assassination

[balmy condor]

yup

[grizzled jay]

i hate that change but i know everyone on forums will praise it

[fleet whale]

i mean it's a good change imo

[balmy condor]

why do you hate it

[grizzled jay]

i liked the idea of attacking very fast compared to the other 2 specs

especially as it relates to synergies with poisons

Doomblade buff

[fleet whale]

all legos got buffed lol

[balmy condor]

doomblade

[fleet whale]

and check out toxic blade

[marble hemlock]

TB will still

suck

[balmy condor]

ye

[fleet whale]

probably

[marble hemlock]

😦

[surreal solar]

^ i can't see 350% of 50 being good

[marble hemlock]

its the d3 treatment

make the numbers bigger until they matter

eventually its gonna be

"toxic blade deals 50000% increase damage"

and still hits for

2% of your dmg

[fleet whale]

i like the "new" snd cause it affects gameplay more

[grizzled jay]

Shiv buff was nice

maybe meaningless

but at least they are listening

[marble hemlock]

i was really hoping theyd double down on the "tb spready our poisons/bleeds" instead

and make it functional on all targets

[balmy condor]

yeah same

something aoe

and new

[marble hemlock]

yeah

even just aoe wouldve been fine

[low girder]

yeah disappointing to see them give up on it

[marble hemlock]

probably too good for aoe, even

[grizzled jay]

Tiny Toxic change LOL

they legit couldnt fix the bug

[fleet whale]

you guys laugh but

[grizzled jay]

"fuck it, rework it"

[marble hemlock]

but its a step in the right direction

[fleet whale]

cold heart was the best leggo for frost dks

so good it was made into a talent

[fleet anchor]

@fleet whale IP R2 has the same problem SnD R2 did

[marble hemlock]

also not a big fan of just

[fleet whale]

and the idea is kind of similar

[fleet anchor]

It has a modify effect

But doesn't modify any spells

[marble hemlock]

global energy regen increase

[grizzled jay]

that tiny toxic change is so funny

[balmy condor]

duskwalker at 50 might be something

[fleet whale]

hmm

[balmy condor]

tbh

[grizzled jay]

they tried for 6+ months to fix 1 bug

couldnt do it

so just reworked it

[fleet whale]

it still shows on the tooltip buff though

[low girder]

idr what duskwalker was in legion

was it also 65

[marble hemlock]

yes

[balmy condor]

yeah

[low girder]

hmm

[marble hemlock]

but it was on a base of ~90sec

[grizzled jay]

Bloodfang getting nerfed is cringe though

[low girder]

yeah true

[grizzled jay]

It needs a damage buff

[marble hemlock]

due to having 4 MAss traits in the weapon

[low girder]

'cause artifact

[fleet whale]

that's actually really bad news if that's the case koji

[grizzled jay]

Zoldyck getting buffed when it was already the best in M+

[fleet whale]

cause it shows the energy regen on the buff descriptions

[fleet anchor]

I mean the new passive should work fine

[marble hemlock]

dashing might overtake zoldyck again tho

15% crit on poison procs is fairly big

[fleet anchor]

Talking about the Haste buff

Before this patch

[surreal solar]

dashing was barely better than zoldyck before

[balmy condor]

dashing was worse

[fleet whale]

oh crap

[balmy condor]

after nerf, zoldyck was better

[fleet whale]

i thought you were talking about the new snd rank 2 lol

not the poisons

[grizzled jay]

I don't think 7% crit is better than +10% damage in execute phase

[balmy condor]

and now zoldyck and dashing got buffed

[fleet anchor]

Every legendary got buffed

[grizzled jay]

not bloodfang

[fleet whale]

watch toxic blade become good

[fleet anchor]

Other than the 1000% buff it got?

lol

Accidentally

[surreal solar]

which one was the one that did healing? did its proc go up to compensate the healing cut?

[grizzled jay]

Bloodfang

[fleet anchor]

Was only the heal portion of Bloodfang that was nerfed, the coefficient was increased from 7.7% to 9.5%

Except 95%

because extra zero

[low girder]

rofl

[marble hemlock]

numbers are hard okay?

cut them some slack 😦

[fleet whale]

give blizz employees cocaine

then they won't make any of these mistakes

[marble hemlock]

good direction though

[fleet anchor]

Literally every legendary was buffed. All sims will have to be updated to figure out a new pecking order. 😛

[marble hemlock]

hopefully more changes

and hopefully

[low girder]

yeah these are all good

[fleet whale]

flag kind of works but kind of doesn't

[low girder]

other than the shiv leggo

[marble hemlock]

someone reads my TTB/Shiv suggestions and reworks them, cause id really love that :<

[fleet whale]

you actually get a haste buff but it acts weird

i think a blizz dev wants to turn shiv/toxic blade into cold heart

you know the frost dk leggo that made chains of ice deal damage

[marble hemlock]

also

make venomous wounds available at like

lv15

not 37 :<

[balmy condor]

so on sims atm, 23 energy/s, and duskwalker makes 1 second reduction ever 50

[marble hemlock]

imagine leveling assa rogue and not getting VW until lv37

:<

[balmy condor]

so we're almost at reducing enough for 1 second every 2

[fleet whale]

most rogues chose sub to level

[fleet anchor]

Most of the legendary updates shouldn't require code changes

[low girder]

23/s jesus

[balmy condor]

with raid gear

[fleet anchor]

But I don't think Duskwalker changes really fixes the issue

[balmy condor]

I feel like 25 is achievable

[marble hemlock]

most rogues chose sub to level
@fleet whale i mean leveling from lv1

if youre new to the game and think assa sounds cool

[fleet anchor]

Like unless you can literally get Vendetta to half Vanish cooldown or so

[low girder]

i'm gonna go double check what i'm at in retail

[marble hemlock]

not getting VW until 37 is awful

[fleet whale]

yeah it is really bad

[balmy condor]

well thats what I'm saying koji

[fleet anchor]

There's always gonna be issues

[balmy condor]

the possibility is there

[marble hemlock]

when most classes get their resource-improvements and stuff by lvl 20-25

[balmy condor]

we're close

[fleet whale]

sin is basically unplayable at lower levels

[marble hemlock]

yeah

[fleet whale]

but with it, it's decent enough

[marble hemlock]

they did some good leveling changes to assa

i.e. fok is lv19 now, used to be 63

mutilate at 12 instead of mid forties

ill also meme on them forever for this

[fleet whale]

so with the snd update

[marble hemlock]

until its changed

[fleet whale]

SL launch sin should def be "faster" than bfa launch

with alac and blindside thrown in

[fleet anchor]

But yeah Whispyr it does seem possible

[marble hemlock]

i mean i leveled assa in SL

and it wasnt bad or anything

[fleet anchor]

I did give this feedback to Blizzard so maybe it was tuned in a way to make it plausible

It doesn't have to be perfect

[fleet whale]

i've been leveling as sin in the beta

seems fine to me

[balmy condor]

yeah

[marble hemlock]

and that was without blindside

[fleet anchor]

Just close enough to get almost double use with minor delay

[fleet whale]

i took blindside though

[marble hemlock]

and most of the other stuff wasnt usable either

[fleet anchor]

Before it was only getting to around 90s

[marble hemlock]

so its really not that terrible imo

[balmy condor]

seems very doable this time around

[fleet whale]

since as i leveled ambush was dealing more damage than envenom

[fleet anchor]

which was awkward

[balmy condor]

cause we're looking at like 65ish

[marble hemlock]

gonna be like ~70sec vendetta cd with that i guess

~every 3rd shiv

[fleet whale]

wasn't duskwalkers also so good in legion

[balmy condor]

yeah

[fleet whale]

cause the artifact gave us a lower vendetta cd?

[marble hemlock]

yes

[balmy condor]

yup

[shut garnet]

isnt shiv 15s

[fleet whale]

like i think in nh

[balmy condor]

25

[fleet whale]

you could have 3 of those vendetta reduction traits

so a 1 min vend cd

[marble hemlock]

koji, suggest them my ttb/shiv changes please :X

[fleet whale]

with the boots, your vendetta and kingsbane basically lined up all the time

[marble hemlock]

7master assassin with duskwalkers was nice

[shut garnet]

has anyone done any sims w the new shiv leggo yet btw

guessing not

[marble hemlock]

although peopel were really sleeping on kingsbane helmet

which had crit+mastery

and was bis on ST for most people 😛

[balmy condor]

no one's run sims yet

[marble hemlock]

but no one bothered checking it 😦

[fleet whale]

i think it got nerfed somewhere down the line

but yeah it simmed really well

[marble hemlock]

it had bis secondaries compared to all the other items

[fleet whale]

and it had a lot of stats being a helm

[marble hemlock]

ye

and the energy was nice

[low girder]

32.9/s on live? obv i have essences and shit

[fleet whale]

both the shoulders and mantle had haste on them i think

for some reason

[low girder]

and a lot more gear than we'll get until later

[fleet whale]

i'm just glad sin got a little bit of attention this build

i feel like sub has been hogging up most of it, be it buffs or nerfs

[marble hemlock]

well, thats just always been the case yeah

sub being the favourite child of the rogue family

and the other 2 kids being ignored by the parents unless they fucked up

[fleet anchor]

@marble hemlock which changes? Too much scrolling today 😄

[marble hemlock]

Well, I'd love it if they redid Well placed steel to improve the damage bonus on r2 shiv, i.e. at r1 its 23% dmg increase, 3% per rank of the conduit or something

So lateron youd get like 50-60% dmg bonus during shiv on poisons

And then change ttb legendary to apply shiv to all targets in an aoe at like 30 or 50% effectiveness

for a nice little aoe poison cd boost

that synergizes with the conduit improvement

[ruby ibex]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3FXd8zegGvGGw81mnTGUFZ

I've run a few sims trying to figure out where I can get my gear to with Assassination (Sub just feels wrong) and this seems to be the highest I can get, but it seems counterintuitive, is this as high as I can get with what I have?

[balmy condor]

I gotchu hold on

[fleet anchor]

Ah so you mean Well-Placed Steel would buff the debuff instead of the ability damage?

[marble hemlock]

yeah exactly

[fleet anchor]

Yeah I could see that

[marble hemlock]

would also give pooling and getting 3envenoms into shiv much more value

[fleet anchor]

I'll mention that idea in our next feedback we send over

Honestly they might already be thinking that direction after the TTB change

[marble hemlock]

and if you then had the leggo apply shiv in aoe, that would be a nice boost to poison dmg in aoe for a short time, and give assa a small yet thematic aoe cd

[fleet anchor]

Since stacking Well-Placed Steel and TTB is kinda nuts atm seems like

[marble hemlock]

yeah, by the looks of it thats starting to be some strong synergy

[fleet anchor]

300% * 450% is a lot of percent

lol

[marble hemlock]

yeah

as i said

its like

d3 levels of multipliers 😄

to make an ability that hits for 50 dmg suddenly hit for 3k 😄

[fleet whale]

from what happened in bfa though... is sub really blizz's favorite child? lol

[fleet anchor]

What does that make it?

[strange python]

oO

[fleet anchor]

Like 900% AP?

With max Conduit and TTB?

[marble hemlock]

ye

[fleet whale]

seems broken for pvp

[marble hemlock]

thats gnarly for sure

[low girder]

lmao

[fleet anchor]

Seems slightly much 🤣

[fleet whale]

nightstalker vanish

for an even bigger shiv

[fleet anchor]

haha there we go

Now you're thinkin'

[fleet whale]

make sure you have ep buff up too

[fleet anchor]

1350% AP

[fleet whale]

10% more damage

[marble hemlock]

and vendetta

[fleet anchor]

What could possibly go wrong

[fleet whale]

become a void elf

so you can get 5% more damage

[fleet anchor]

Basically just becomes like the Shuriken Toss/Poisoned Knife Azerite trait they axed

[marble hemlock]

go back to argus and find the mob thats nature vulnerable

[fleet anchor]

Only like

3x as frequent

lol

[crimson palm]

U don't need shiv, u can hit 25k crits with kyrian ability

If u wanna one shot ppl

[strange python]

shiv shiv

[fleet anchor]

ER is "only" 135% AP base though

This is like..

8x stronger lol

[marble hemlock]

yeah

but im still not a big fan imo

[fleet whale]

so assassin class fantasy

would be a big hit every 25 seconds?

[marble hemlock]

what i liked about TB was playing around it to boost your finisher/poison dmg as much as you could during its uptime

[crimson palm]

I'm just saying the tech already there

[fleet anchor]

But yeah I think something like Well-Placed making the debuff better sounds good

[crimson palm]

Ma ns vendetta trinket macro

[fleet anchor]

Gives some gameplay impact

[marble hemlock]

so im hoping for more emphasis on the bonusdmg portion of it

getting people to really pool and prep their shiv windows, which isnt all that simple anymore

with 3 maintenance spells that need to be sorted beforehand

[crimson palm]

It's simpler now actually

If you maintain all those 3 and pool

You don't hit random envenoms

You can adopt the hit before energy cap playstyle

And it works quite well

[fleet whale]

lol assassin is so forgotten now

[marble hemlock]

i dont like the notion of needing to stack multiple sources of massive more% multipliers to make an ability worth using

[fleet whale]

that people in sub think the snd change is for them

[marble hemlock]

cause with the current iteration, leggo is only worth with conduit, and vice versa. so if you wanna run execute leggo for a fight, then the conduit seems very lackluster still

[fleet whale]

it kind of feels like cold heart to me, where a random ability suddenly deals a lot of damage every 30 seconds or so

[marble hemlock]

but yeah, my SL wishlist for the most part would be those 2 things. shiv/ttb interaction with the debuff isntead of direct damage, and pushing venomous wounds to much lower levels so people actually have the option to level as assa

without wanting to kill themselves

[idle star]

Woooo DnD is doing something for Sin

[fleet whale]

wow were getting death and decay

that's big for sin

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/GDrQk/922ffee368.png

cause this sucks :<

[fleet whale]

blizz wants rogues to go sub obviously

[fleet anchor]

Yeah that is definitely quite late

Assassination is already slow af

[marble hemlock]

esp since you get mutilate at 12 now

[fleet anchor]

And without VW it's pretty horrific

[marble hemlock]

by level 17 you have rupture, snd, envenom, garrote

lots of cool abilities, no way to use them 😦

http://puu.sh/GDrRB/1f4b14cf0e.png

this is big though

for all rogues

no longer have to buy it

[fleet whale]

ER got a huge change too

doesn't require a weapon to use

so if your weapons break midfight, you can still do something

[marble hemlock]

means you can still burst when disarmed in pvp

most abilities that dont need a weapon to be cast

also cannot be dodged

[balmy condor]

but now we have to level unarmed again

fuck

@ruby ibex https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/m9npy8VCq91mVYC5QVcqVM

sorry it took so long

[young relic]

(if you already know this, sorry) For the people who want to level alts. Currently there is probably a mistake in the game that fastens your leveling by a lot. When your pick a new character, decide to choose the legion expansion route. In your class order hall you can buy a level 47 ilvl weapon with no level requirement. If you would want to level normally you would need around level 40 to get a similar weapon. So pretty BIG deal. Use it while you can

[strong oracle]

did assa get buffed?

[balmy condor]

Yes

[fleet whale]

yes and got good qol changes

[balmy condor]

Legendaries and shiv buff, snd now grants energy Regen

[humble socket]

ER requires a weapon, dont know where you got the idea from @fleet whale

[fleet whale]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/486284970806083584/766430308295770152/unknown.png

[humble socket]

Must be bad datamining becasue it totally required a weapon on beta

requires*

The energy regen on SnD is 10%

i know the datamining showed 0%

[grizzled jay]

no it didn't

its 0% for outlaw/sub

10% for sin

but they had to add 0% baseline so Sin could get a R2 that gives 10%

[humble socket]

Slice and Dice Assassination: Finishing move that consumes combo points to increase attack speed by 50% and Energy regeneration by 0%. Lasts longer per combo point. 1 point : 12 seconds 2 points: 18 seconds 3 points: 24 seconds 4 points: 30 seconds 5 points: 36 seconds 6 points: 42 seconds Outlaw, Subtlety, Initial: Finishing move that consumes combo points to increase attack speed by 50%. Lasts longer per combo point. 1 point : 12 seconds 2 points: 18 seconds 3 points: 24 seconds 4 points: 30 seconds 5 points: 36 seconds 6 points: 42 seconds 25 Energy. 100 yd range. Instant. 1 sec global cooldown.

Is what i saw

[balmy condor]

That’s rank 1

[grizzled jay]

yes

[balmy condor]

Rank 2 then adds 10%

[grizzled jay]

they had to make 0% baseline for all 3 specs

so that they can then add a rank 2 that gives just Sin 10% energy regen

as shown above

[humble socket]

well yes, they split rank 1 into 2 spec differentiating spells

with the assass version having 0%

[balmy condor]

That’s rank 1

[humble socket]

Right

[balmy condor]

Rank 2 adds 10%

[humble socket]

correct

[balmy condor]

?

[grizzled jay]

General is Baseline. Not assassination

[humble socket]

i didnt see any dataming for the rank 2 lines

[grizzled jay]

You just need to scroll up

literally half a page

[balmy condor]

It’s literally the first line

[humble socket]

lol yup im just blind

[grizzled jay]

@balmy condor now go be a good boy and sim 8 energy refund VR so it turns out being the best talent

[balmy condor]

We already simmed that

[manic harness]

Soooo whats the play on Sub legendary?

[balmy condor]

Last week

#subtlety

Wrong channel

[grizzled jay]

oh

how did it sim out

[balmy condor]

Not good enough

[grizzled jay]

is it ahead of Exsang at least

[balmy condor]

Bout equal iirc

[grizzled jay]

that's a start at least

[marble hemlock]

not really

[grizzled jay]

cements it as a good leveling/wq talent

[marble hemlock]

cause itll get worse over the course of the expac :p

[grizzled jay]

just making it slightly better for world content is good enough for me

rather than letting it rot

[marble hemlock]

or rather, not scale as well as alac does

[grizzled jay]

both are passive options so one will always be the best, but VR being not dumpster is nice for leveling

[cobalt gyro]

man sin is gonna be rolling in gcds huh

[balmy condor]

Not really

[marble hemlock]

[balmy condor]

41 apm to maybe 46

[cobalt gyro]

kinda silly to me they couldnt make SnD good for sin so they just

buffed the FUCK out of it

[grizzled jay]

8 energy VR actually feels really nice

[cobalt gyro]

shoulda just made it so instant poison procs with snd active generates 3 energy (half VW)

[marble hemlock]

would be

way too huge for aoe

[grizzled jay]

is 10% energy regen that huge

[balmy condor]

Not really

[cobalt gyro]

yea thats fine you get giga regen in aoe anyway

[balmy condor]

It’s something though

[ruby ibex]

Thanks Whispyr!

[grizzled jay]

VR + Blindside + SnD feels so crisp in open world.

Less downtime between pulls.

I like it

also the fact this trinket is op

[balmy condor]

Abusing unbalanced trinkets

[wooden sparrow]

Is it true sin rogues are trash tier atm?

[grizzled jay]

yes

[balmy condor]

Sin is fine

It’s behind on beta

It’s pretty good in prepatch

[wooden sparrow]

Sub feels so weird to me. Sin was always my fave 😬

[balmy condor]

It’ll be okay :)

Just needs some number help

[willow palm]

How much haste should you run if the new priority is vers crit?

[balmy condor]

Not a lot

[cobalt gyro]

as much as ur sim tells u to

[balmy condor]

We still don’t have breakpoints

[willow palm]

Ah kk

Wont you starve on energy o.o

[balmy condor]

Memory

Handles that

• alacrity

[idle star]

So new SnD 10% energy + Vigor 10% and venom ruahes 8 energy return? Seems legit

[cobalt gyro]

nah. venom rush sucks.

[balmy condor]

Venom rush is worse than alacrity

[cobalt gyro]

alacrity >

[idle star]

Oh yeh i forgot what it was competing with

[balmy condor]

It’s a fair amount behind as well

[cobalt gyro]

plus alacrity is another like

12% or someth

[strong oracle]

damn sin still feels awful on beta

[balmy condor]

10%

[cobalt gyro]

10% haste + more dot ticks

[balmy condor]

Ye

[cobalt gyro]

so its a bit more than just 10%

[balmy condor]

I guess

[grizzled jay]

VR is good for basically open world only

and levelin

pvp too i guess

[cobalt gyro]

might just take exsang for pvp

[quaint sequoia]

how much of a buff is this for sin?

[balmy condor]

Who knows

We haven’t run sims

[ancient rain]

Hey guys, anything strange about this sim? https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/v5JEYr3Vt7JaXcf6QaFovu

[balmy condor]

With legendaries? Probably like 5%ish

[cobalt gyro]

directly proportional to whatever dps you get per point of energy

[balmy condor]

@ancient rain nope seems fine

[cobalt gyro]

are u sure

nice trinket

[ancient rain]

Thank u sire

[balmy condor]

Yeah

[ancient rain]

That trinket went above every other 8.3 mythic trinket in my bags

[balmy condor]

Trinket is overtuned

[cobalt gyro]

10/10

[fleet whale]

so is highborne compendium of storms bis now?

cause i can make one easily lol

[balmy condor]

Dunno if BiS is the right word

But it’s definitely busted for no reason

[past moat]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[pallid notch]

Is Shiv something that should be included in the rotation?

[low girder]

not in prepatch

in SL yes

[tacit pilot]

nice change Rogue Slice and Dice now increases Energy regeneration.

[balmy condor]

welcome change for sure

[last root]

gonna be more relevant for sin too now

[fleet whale]

snd was always relevant to sin, as it was our highest damaging finisher

just now it does more for gameplay

[balmy condor]

yup

[last root]

more relevant

more

[frail birch]

I mean, idk how much more relevant 100% uptime can get

[mystic charm]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[main blaze]

Yeah was a little odd that it wasn't part of it in the first place with how outlaw and sub both have benefits other than white damage

[pallid notch]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bbt6gL95qVuifM7Jxp8n3h
anyone able to offer some guidance on what gear i could improve on?

[drifting cosmos]

left with around 60% overall crit now

after all corruption gone, so it was like 10-15% drop

[balmy condor]

idk why duskwalkers so low

don't mind that

but dashing buff seems pretty giga

APL seems to not be casting vendetta with the cooldown reduction

@fleet anchor

dunno if that's a bug with the lego itself or the actual apl

[strange python]

maybe conditions with vanish ? lining cds ..

[balmy condor]

yeah

[fleet anchor]

Not really matching what I'm seeing

[balmy condor]

weird

[balmy condor]

hm

I'll have to check my patch

[marble hemlock]

those numbers still make me sad

[balmy condor]

seems like I'm still on 36200

yeah

that's mb

[fleet anchor]

cropped

🤣

[balmy condor]

fkin koji pushing updates between my pull requests

[fleet anchor]

Presumably with an extra 0

We can assume Bloodfang will fall around 3.7%

[balmy condor]

fall by 3.6, or to 3.6

[fleet whale]

are those sims done without covenants?

[fleet anchor]

yes

With Kyrian

[gaunt aspen]

!talents

[balmy condor]

you're looking for !guide

[strange python]

wanna gief venthyr a shot, week²

[balmy condor]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[gaunt aspen]

ty

[fallow otter]

Level 50 with essences > level 60 with legends and conduits

This game sucks

Hahaha

[storm forum]

that's just how expansions go. BFA didn't launch with essences and going from legion artifacts + legendaries to just BFA azerite was god awful

[grizzled jay]

Doomblade

@fleet anchor I know it's a bad Covenant, but does SBS make Doomblade the best?

have to imagine +5% damage must be worth at least 0.16% dps

[fallow otter]

But we didn't get stuck in limbo where we could directly compare 110 to 120 in the same patch

[fleet whale]

that's because essences are broken af

and to a lesser degree azerite (in the case for rogues)

[fallow otter]

Like... With the same patch a 110 with legends doesn't out damage a 120 in blues

[fleet whale]

blizz really had to add shit in BFA to make classes feel better

so it greatly inflated our power levels

[fleet anchor]

@grizzled jay last I checked SBS doesn't count for Doomblade but maybe it does now? I'd need to test

If it did then it would be a decent bump up yes

[grizzled jay]

okay

[balmy condor]

@marble hemlock duskwalker seems to be putting vendetta down to 80sec

needs more energy

[low girder]

Just use lucid

[spiral hull]

Here in prepatch is it worth using 3 eb and 1 ss or 3 ss 1 eb in m+ since i dont have perfect gear

[balmy condor]

3 ss

big

[spiral hull]

Ok ty

[sand otter]

Thank you Blizzard

almost identical rotation to lich king lmao

that was our Nzoth kill tonight to test out our new raid group

[split grail]

Just did mythic Jaina...I was barely beating the tanks 😦

[sand otter]

T.T

[split grail]

Question: Will we be using subt or MA in SL?

[balmy condor]

ma for single target

[split grail]

Okay, and I'll be using ambush to open I assume?

[balmy condor]

in sl yeah

not right now

[split grail]

I don't care about right now tbh

[grizzled jay]

what happened to Subt

oh i guess going Ambush into ER with the +crit

is actually kinda op

over garrote damage increase

[split grail]

I'm guessing without ss subt isn't worth it?

[grizzled jay]

nvm that makes sense

No subt is still strong without SS

I think ER probably is what pushed MA over

[split grail]

ER?

[low girder]

echoing reprimand

kyrian ability

[split grail]

Ah, I havn't looked into the covenant stuff. It keeps changing too much

So with MA when I use vanish do I still use rupture with 5 cp or jsut ambush again?

[balmy condor]

with ma you env ambush/mut env

[split grail]

Sorry if I'm dumb, but I don't follow. I assume env is envenom?

[low girder]

yes

[split grail]

So env with 5, then vanish and ambush?

[low girder]

no, vanish then envenom

then mut then another env

[grizzled jay]

how can you envenom and ambush @balmy condor

[split grail]

Oh, so ambush is only gonna be used for the opener(assuming no blindside)

[grizzled jay]

or do you mean ambush then envenom

[low girder]

atm you don't ambush outside of blindside procs

[balmy condor]

oh

subt

yeh

ambush env

[grizzled jay]

talking with MA

[balmy condor]

yeh yeh

[grizzled jay]

do you not ER with MA? i feel like you have to right lol

Ambush ER SnD

[split grail]

Oh, I was only asking about SL stuff and I heard MA for SL

[grizzled jay]

Or Ambush SnD ER

[low girder]

oh in SL

[grizzled jay]

yes Balrund was only talking SL

[low girder]

yeah prolly ambush ER

[grizzled jay]

MA just makes the opener kinda weird cause you want to Garrote, Rup, and SnD in the opener but all those are bad in the MA window

I guess Ambush ER Rup -> Garrote Mut SnD

[low girder]

yeah prolly something like that

ambush is 3 on crit right

[grizzled jay]

yes

and er would be 4

[low girder]

yeah that one's fine, trying to figure out the vanish

'cause you'd want finishers

[grizzled jay]

you would want to vanish er 100% right

[low girder]

but ambush is only 3 CPs

[grizzled jay]

vanish er env

[low girder]

i mean there you're using in opener

it wouldn't be up yet

[grizzled jay]

oh you want to vanish as soon as you snd

i guess that makes sense

[low girder]

yeah i think

so you might have to mut there

to hit 4 CP for another env

idk, that's a sim question

ambush vs env dmg in the window

[grizzled jay]

once Reverberation ranks get high enough, unless they nerf it, you might actually get more DPS holding vanish until 2nd ER is up

[low girder]

yeah quite possible

[shell moss]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[sudden brook]

what are sin stats for prepatch?

[balmy condor]

vers crit

[sudden brook]

is every spec legit just vers crit

[balmy condor]

sub boys are vers mast me thinks

[sudden brook]

no

its vers crit

lol

[balmy condor]

kek

then yeah

[versed mica]

sin snd change good?

[balmy condor]

for gameplay, yes

I think numerically its worse

[marble hemlock]

i think they just screwed up the scaling on haste/crit/mastery a bit

in terms of how much % you get per rating

[balmy condor]

its possible

my baseline sims are all lower than they were last build

[fallow otter]

5k dream over

[balmy condor]

this is beta

[fallow otter]

It's dumb that we do less dmg

50 to 60

[balmy condor]

its always like that

you lose systems

you lose damage

[fallow otter]

But it's never like this

You can't be on a 110 now with legion legends

And do more dmg

[balmy condor]

prepatch bfa was more damage than uldir

[low girder]

not quite, i went to go look and i have prepatch logs doing around 6k in antorus

uldir i did around 9k in heroic week

[balmy condor]

really?

[low girder]

yeah

[fallow otter]

But I can be lvl 50 on beta bro

[balmy condor]

I remember is higher

[low girder]

i'm not too fussed though

[fallow otter]

Do more dmg than 60

[low girder]

6k on garothi at least

which was like a 90

6.4k

[balmy condor]

yeah idk

I don't really care too much

I play for the content

[low girder]

it's kinda dumb but so was having your leggos randomly turn off at 115, so i'm not too fussed

yeah

[balmy condor]

not the numbers

[fallow otter]

If you didn't have essences and Azerite you couldnt come kill mythic nzoth at 60

But we can go stomp nighthold

Solo

[low girder]

unless it's gul'dan

well at 60 we prolly can, idk

[grizzled jay]

Illidan is harder than Gul'dan

perma stuns you

[low girder]

rip

[fallow otter]

How? We do half the dmg

[low girder]

legacy buff

it might already be active in legion though in prepatch

and i don't think it scales

[fallow otter]

It's not the same as usual xpac though right

Im not crazy here

[low girder]

nah it's not quite the same

usually the difference isn't this stark

[balmy condor]

old content is crushing us because of the leveling changes right

[low girder]

everything i tried pre-legion seemed fine, if a little bit longer

legion raids dmg taken seems about appropriate, we just have way less dmg

so everything takes longer, and gul'dan makes you healing immune in the last mythic phase if you're solo so rip

[tropic jackal]

has anyone done a 5 mask carry yet? i just got thru my first one and it was a friggin' doozy

before prepatch i'd pick up my carry with 3 orbs left

i was sweating for sanity that whole run and didn't think i was going to make it for the majority of the run

just curious what you guys are running to clear them?

[balmy condor]

probably would be the same thing you ran before

just without corruptions carrying you

[grizzled jay]

ive done lots of 5mask carries with max corruption

[tropic jackal]

yeah it was way tougher with the same setup i was using before. those big faceless trash mobs would almost die with a single garrote before but now they feel like bosses lol

[balmy condor]

losing corruption will do that

[tropic jackal]

yep i was just curious how others are doing

[strange python]

Am i losing it, or didnt we have deadly and instant as Mut? Or is my brain living in the past?

[balmy condor]

just deadly

[strange python]

when was the last time we used instant? legion?

[balmy condor]

uh

as assassination, probably never

I can't think back far enough to remember when deadly wasn't deadly

[strange python]

def used to be deadly main and instant off at some stage lol

But good def just losing it and living in the past 😩

[balmy condor]

now that I think about it

I think instant poison mustve been mop

or maybe cata?

it's been a LONG time

[grizzled jay]

last time we used instant was classic

it was around in tbc/wrath/cata but not as good as deadly

then instant was deleted and the instant proc of deadly was added

in mop

[strange python]

That is slightly concerning lol, i played mut all through Bfa to forget that 😆

[grizzled jay]

wod combat got instant again

Swift Poison replaced Deadly with Instant for Combat

[radiant sorrel]

Confused about the slice n dice changes for assassination

Are we losing the attack speed for energy regen?

Or gaining both

[balmy condor]

losing atk speed gaining energy regen

[radiant sorrel]

Is that a nerf or a buff? Like energy regeneration is nice but isn’t AS even better for Sin?

[halcyon falcon]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide

[balmy condor]

buff to gameplay, nerf to damage as it stands atm from what we're seeing

but the sims aren't final

[shy dust]

Like Whispyr sims are accurate

[balmy condor]

usually are

this time around, my CLI updated, but my GUI didn't

and when I run GUI with a covenant, it crashes

my simc is cursed as fuck

I do have my moments though

for sure

[low girder]

if it makes people stop complaining about "omg sin so slow" then i'm all for it, they can tune our dmg

(and will have to as things stand )

[balmy condor]

yeah I'm starting to feel like a boomer

telling people about the olden days

before 8.3

where sin was slow

[low girder]

yeah idgi, shit's faster than EP sin

this is still fast in my book

[balmy condor]

yeah sin in prepatch is giga fast compared to 'normal'

antorus sin

[worldly iron]

i still stand by that people have weird obsessions with apm

[balmy condor]

they 100% do

[low girder]

there's like at most 2 seconds where you can't hit a button on retail rn

and people go nuts

do not understand

[balmy condor]

according to half the community, apm is a direct measure of fun

[worldly iron]

💯

[balmy condor]

yep

zoomer warrior main: "hey hows sin in prepatch"
me: "I like it, its pretty fast actually"
zoomer: "what? its not even 55apm"

[low girder]

it's like they didn't play crit build in M+ on bosses

that's real sin

[balmy condor]

yeah honestly

[low girder]

MUT, fuck didn't crit, 2... 3... 4... MUT

yeah

[balmy condor]

giving up is for omega pussies

[low girder]

i thought antorus sin wasn't even that slow

maybe i'm getting old

oh def

maybe they're all fury warriors, hard to get used to not always being MUST. HIT. BUTTON.

[shrewd night]

Antorus sin didn't care what button you pressed or what you did wrong either. Pb would fix it kek.

[vestal wren]

legendary powers:

[low girder]

lol

any idea how bloodfang would look assuming it was 9.5% instead of 95%?

[balmy condor]

koji was saying something 3.7

[low girder]

ah ok so in the middle roughly

[vestal wren]

yes bloodfang did get a buff from 7% ap to 9.5% ap but they fucked up a ,

so its 95% ap

enjoy while you can

[potent bone]

anyone know how tf to get to draenor rn

[balmy condor]

garrison hearth?

[sick scarab]

lol

from 7 to 95% LOL

[vestal wren]

it was on accident

[sick scarab]

y y LOL

[potent bone]

what if i dont have a garrison tho lol

[sick scarab]

but it is funny... the quality testing LOL

go to the dark portal

[vestal wren]

its easy to make the mistake

[balmy condor]

yeah

you'd have to dark portal

[errant hull]

is SnD worth using on sin?

[vestal wren]

look:

[balmy condor]

yes

SND is our strongest finsiher

[vestal wren]

just forgot a 0

[lament dove]

@potent bone isn't there a portal to Ashran (maybe they moved it to another level, like a sub-level in Orgrimmar)

[sick scarab]

lol

[balmy condor]

there's also that

[errant hull]

ashran port got moved downstairs

[shrewd night]

Whispyr smh

[potent bone]

they deleted it lmao

now i cant get to draenor

[balmy condor]

how'd I fuck up now

[shrewd night]

Didn't even remember the portal to ashran

[balmy condor]

tru

me and my inefficient draenor pathing

[errant hull]

can you explain why SnD is our strongest finisher? im still kinda new to sin and it seems like autos arent really a large source of damage

[balmy condor]

autos and instant poison damage

is huge

[potent bone]

so if we dont got a garrison, we cant go to draenor?

[shrewd night]

..portal

[errant hull]

o

[shrewd night]

Like we've said

[low girder]

autos are our top damaging "ability" atm

[balmy condor]

yeah

[lament dove]

autos are my second highest in dungeon

[sick scarab]

we got also a VENOM RUSH buff!!

[low girder]

on ST*

missed that part

[sick scarab]

lol

[balmy condor]

auto attacks are huge

that venom rush buff was the same as last week

just came up again in the datamining for some reason

[low girder]

yeah it's just added to beta now

the buff was ptr only

[balmy condor]

yeah was just ptr right

yeah

[potent bone]

so we go venom rush, alcrity, or the bleedy one?

[balmy condor]

alacrity

[low girder]

alacrity always

[potent bone]

bet

[balmy condor]

venom rush and exsang are both bad

even after buff

venom rush need another buff

and exsang is just

idk

idk what you can do to exsang tbh

[low girder]

buff the bleeds

[errant hull]

exsang only worked when we had stupid high levels of haste

[low girder]

lol

[balmy condor]

yeah

buff the bleeds baseline

[low girder]

actually idk if that would even work, haste is good there too

[balmy condor]

but then alacrity

so you're in the same spot

would've worked back when we had tb

[low girder]

we'd need some sort of borrowed power thing

along the lines of SS

[balmy condor]

I think exsang 30sec cd

[low girder]

that too

[balmy condor]

would help a lot

[low girder]

that would prolly make it fairly competitive

[errant hull]

are there training dummies in silvermoon

[low girder]

uh

[balmy condor]

probably?

wouldn't suggest it though

[low girder]

yeah, near the spire

[balmy condor]

no idea if they're scaled

probably are

[low girder]

idk

[balmy condor]

but silvermoon is like

really old

[errant hull]

i really hope they revamp eversong ghostlands and silvermoon sometime soon

[balmy condor]

you'll be waiting a long time for that probably

[sick scarab]

one thing i like... is no more pvp scaling..

yesterday i did a bg.. it tasted like old time vanilla..

did a 3 vs 1 LOL

[pseudo hamlet]

Damn, ganking up one person with 2 other players is really classic experience.

[dusk moat]

guys im using ss eb x3 for dungs

any use for ambush atm?

or shuld i switch out some eb or what snew xD

[low girder]

SS + EB are both good, ambush you don't use at all

[balmy condor]

you can still do the classic 2x eb + something

that's fine too

[dusk moat]

oki thanks trying it on

slice and dice might be usefull to have up right

[balmy condor]

maintain always

[dusk moat]

damn i hate new shit i suck at new shit 😄

[balmy condor]

just a matter of learning

[dusk moat]

true

[low girder]

i recommend a noise for when SND hits pandemic also

for now

[dusk moat]

but im gonna mis 72% crit with 5 striktrughs

:/

[balmy condor]

72?

jesus

[dusk moat]

was sick

[balmy condor]

you mustve been overcapped constantly

that's kinda unlucky

[dusk moat]

i gusess but was doing very well on high keys

spec only shined with huge pulls

[balmy condor]

yeh

should've replaced severes with strikes to get back under 60%

but no use crying over spilled milk

[dusk moat]

haha true 🙂

u guys stil use ct?

[balmy condor]

yep

[dusk moat]

aiit

[balmy condor]

its also not bad single target

got a 30% buff

and now its pulling even with PB

[dusk moat]

sweeet

[cobalt siren]

is sin or par with sub atm?

[bright lintel]

tiny toxic blade still bad?

[balmy condor]

sin is better in m+ and worse single target atm

tiny toxic is still bad

yes

[bright lintel]

cheers

[low girder]

i just noticed it wasn't in that sim

rip

[balmy condor]

yeah

I think it needs to be changed in the code

not sure

[low girder]

more than likely

[balmy condor]

koji's quick

but not that quick

XD

[errant hull]

assa will still be really good in raiding in SL right? ive been seeing people say that outlaw and sub are both kings of rogue atm

[balmy condor]

it'll be fine probably

but as of current tuning

it won't be used

sin on beta sims is well behind sub

[errant hull]

inb4 sub stomps castle nathria and gets kneecapped just like in bfa

[low girder]

more than likely sin will just get a buff

[balmy condor]

the last couple tuning passes have been very pointed, and very accurate

so I actually have a lot of faith

the legendary tuning pass we got

put like 5 legendaries withing 1% of each other

[low girder]

yeah idk how it is for other classes but the rogue tuning (outside of actual spec vs spec tuning) has been extremely on point

[balmy condor]

yup

like impressively on point

[errant hull]

thats good to hear

[low girder]

i have complaints but they're all more based in design rather than numbers

[balmy condor]

typical

[low girder]

lol

[storm perch]

I wish them to fix problems of the prepatch, I don't even think about sin's tuning. I can't log in and play the game normally for two days.

[balmy condor]

happens with every prepatch/expansion launch

such is life

most of the big problems get fixed within hours

[storm perch]

I honestly don't understand why this is considered normal. If this happens every patch, addon...

[balmy condor]

its normal because it happens every major patch

that's what makes it normal

like I said, most problems get fixed within hours

my entire friends list had their UI's fixed and were able to log in by the end of the night

if you bugged for longer, sorry to hear it

but its honestly not that big a deal

addons are also not blizzards problem

they provide their API for addon creators, but at the end of the day, the addon working or not working is up to the creator

[storm perch]

sry, meant expansion

[balmy condor]

usually the prepatches are the ones that break things as well

like ptr is 9.0.1, shadowlands release will be 9.0.2

so there shouldn't be any major addon breaking stuff happening when the expansion actually releases

cause all the background stuff is already implemented

[fallow estuary]

How is CT simming close to PB if the API doesn't use CT singletarget

PB just THAT bad that its close to nothing

[balmy condor]

APL*

and it does use CT single target

[fallow estuary]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/21uzAHVENzSAyxh62fZdF3/simc

[balmy condor]

crimson_tempest,if=spell_targets=1&combo_points>=(cp_max_spend-1)&refreshable&!exsanguinated&!debuff.shiv.up&master_assassin_remains=0&!azerite.twist_the_knife.enabled&target.time_to_die-remains>4

[fallow estuary]

i can't find a single CT use in my sample sequenzes

[balmy condor]

this is the line

[low girder]

you're running TTK

[balmy condor]

if you're interested

yeah

TTK disables it

[low girder]

stop running TTK and it'll use it

[fallow estuary]

Ohhhh

thanks :)

[balmy condor]

the reasoning for it btw is that TTK makes envenom stronger, and since envenom is competing with CT for cp

TTK makes envenom strictly better use of cp

[dusk moat]

u guys going crit versen now or?

saw assa rouge doing fine with vers

[fallow estuary]

Crit is still to go if you run EB's (if you are talking m+)

[balmy condor]

yes

crit > vers for m+

[low girder]

Vers>Crit is still the priority in raid

so it's not that different

atm

[balmy condor]

all 3 specs are vers > crit btw

so you can use the same gearset

[dusk moat]

ah okey so fuck haste xD

sweeeet

finally we get that

[balmy condor]

for the next month and a half

XD

yes

[dusk moat]

how much crit u guysa on now?

[low girder]

idk i still have like 30% haste because i only socketed one set lol

so my stats are wild

[balmy condor]

my m+ set is 44%

but my gear is trash

if you had actual gear, you'd be around 50%

[dusk moat]

got 48

might switch some shit tho

for verse

if i can have some crit verse in bank xD

[fallow estuary]

Do i want 100% uptime on CT singletarget?

[balmy condor]

if you're using it, yes

[fallow estuary]

Ye, got rid of TTK and runnin 3xEB and 3xSS again

Thanks <3

[balmy condor]

np

[fallow estuary]

Holy fuck that feels awfull to play

[balmy condor]

welcome to the entire patch of 8.3

[fallow estuary]

i press envenom once every 2 centuries

[balmy condor]

[fallow estuary]

i was a toxic bomb boy

[balmy condor]

CT in single target in raids

was cancer

[fallow estuary]

oh yea i believe that

[balmy condor]

the fact that CT is usable single target is just so depressing

for that whole row

[fallow estuary]

kinda glad now that this is the first content i didn't acutally raid

even tho gcd cap rogue sounds fun on paper

[low girder]

was fine as a change of pace

wouldn't want to keep it though

luckily wwe're not

[royal lantern]

i mean

gcd cap rogue is outlaw

[low girder]

i read it as sin lol

[royal lantern]

assassination is desinged too be slow

[balmy condor]

yeah and people still complain

[royal lantern]

if it isnt gcd capped its bad gameplay

yes i play warrior and dh, why do you ask????

[outer estuary]

arms gcd kapped kekw

[short quarry]

!wa