I dont quite grasp why you provide such ironic replies.
#assassination
ember rover
tropic ocean
I actually enjoyslice n dice
fallow estuary
Navigaton > Gale Force for M+ i guess? Even tho Gale is pretty strong right now Navigations should still outshine em in M+
balmy condor
gale is pretty strong in m+ as well
ember rover
Fact is, we're in pre-patch and people come here to get to know what to play right now. If you cant answer with anything useful, it would be nice if you would not answer at all.
fallow estuary
But AA's should get less important the more targets you have and crit is esp. valueable for us
balmy condor
ember rover
100% correct on that one
drifting cosmos
that 'you cant answer with anything useful' is like a slap on your face @balmy condor
balmy condor
If you cant answer with anything useful, it would be nice if you would not answer at all.
huh. What a concept
mossy cargo
drifting cosmos
idk i feel the concept of snd feels borning
but it doesn bring some changes to the spec which is welcome
ember rover
It does seem to be boring right now, but from what we can see with some conduits, they want to make it some super powered buff you want uptime on
balmy condor
I've always enjoyed snd personally
ember rover
Right now it's just a boring attack speed buff
balmy condor
what conduits make it "some super powered buff"
I am unfamiliar with these conduits
drifting cosmos
if the atk can trigger something thatd be nice, atm just like another passive
balmy condor
perhaps I missed some patch notes
ember rover
No, right now, from what I can see, it's just the healing conduit for it
You didnt miss anything
ember rover
Right now, yep.
frigid kestrel
OK so i have a stupid question that i should know the anser to
ember rover
I do, which is why I said that it is indeed boooooring right now, but it can change.
frigid kestrel
Why doesn't SnD regen energy? and why did i think it did? and if it does..... well.... idk
shrewd night
AtS doesnt do anything for any sin passives
balmy condor
sin is just attack speed, and none of our passives make that regen any more than normal
yup
ember rover
Sad times eh?
balmy condor
I don't mind it
ember rover
They should give sin same passive as subt, where some autos grant combos
That would fix a lot of issues
balmy condor
I don't see what issue that would fix
throwing more cp at an energy limited spec doesn't make it less energy limited
ember rover
You'd spend energy on harder hitting things, as opposed to weaker ones
worldly iron
fewer mut casts, i suppose?
balmy condor
frigid kestrel
I mean they could make it act as haste
ember rover
Wouldnt that tank all haste rating for all rogues?
balmy condor
well the concept would be to make the haste portion replace the current rank 2
ember rover
Since secondaries have huge diminishing returns
shrewd night
Imagine rogues. Getting corruptions removed. Solving the issue by getting 30% passive haste from snd and talents
balmy condor
yeah
frigid kestrel
ye
balmy condor
I don't personally see a better way tbh
shrewd night
bruh
go back to hfc days
when deadly has max stacks or whatever it was, it ticks energy
shrewd night
Nothing will make snd less boring
balmy condor
true 
shrewd night
Changing it to haste doesnt make it less boring, just make it a chore instead of a fun button to press. Although kek, fun. Terrible wordchoice.
balmy condor
some big brain dev needs to think of some new sin stuff
shrewd night
Idk man, sin has a really solid kit. Thinking of new complimenting passives and abilities.. I wouldnt want that job.
ember rover
I wouldnt mind blindside being considerably the best on first tier
balmy condor
good thing it is
ember rover
Makes you press more buttons and more engaged in your rotation
Isn't EP competitive?
frigid kestrel
^
ember rover
Eh, from what I could see in the very limited data we have on wclogs, most people still use EP
ember rover
Ye, I imagine heavy execute fights will make Blindside must have
balmy condor
@fiery flower can we do that thing again
proper sage
LMAO
fiery flower
grizzled ruin
it sims 137 dps less
balmy condor
good thing we aren't talking about prepatch then
crimson palm
blindside barerly does anything on execute
ur EP uptime is too high atm for bs to be competitive
ember rover
I dunno, that's why I said it would be super nice if BS would be like super clear that it's best, by far.
grizzled ruin
yea but according to blizz they dont want to have a clear choice-they want u to choose kekw
ember rover
Ye, but EP barely does anything to the playstyle, so it's booring, right?
Whilst, BS can be more engaging.
balmy condor
okay?
verbal mantle
crimson palm
well if ur playing sin properly u want to minmax ep uptime
that usually means u need to think whether u can press a finisher or not
limber dagger
Guys im super not up to date with the SL / Prepatch changes. Are we happy? 🤔
balmy condor
most people are not
limber dagger
How so?
balmy condor
snd is just attack speed and more maintenance
limber dagger
Understandable, what about the talent changes?
balmy condor
alacrity is fine
shy radish
hi boys, do we have a macro for the ambush / muti or does this still need an addon?
balmy condor
still needs an addon
limber dagger
Ambush muti?
balmy condor
ambush/mutilate from blindside macroing isn't supported in the base game
shy radish
k, thnk u
limber dagger
Are we still using the same build for m+?
balmy condor
yup
limber dagger
Alacrity in place of TB i guess and MP in first row?
limber dagger
is blindside any vailable?
balmy condor
nop
limber dagger
😦
balmy condor
too much uptime on EP
limber dagger
Do you have an idea how it looks for the other speccs by any chance?
Just as a quick rundown, are people generally happy?
balmy condor
yeah sub players are vibing
ember rover
Once again, this is for prepatch. Dunno how it will be in SLands
balmy condor
outlaw players are chilling
limber dagger
I mean it seems strong but doesnt it play exactly the same'
limber dagger
Just from the looks of it
balmy condor
feast me thinks
I was looking at it
but couldn't pin it down
too lazy to figure it out
low girder
bit more vers on the gear but yeah idk
austere grove
hows sin feeling in m+ now? really slow?
balmy condor
faster than before
austere grove
than before? you mean on beta?
balmy condor
than 8.3
balmy condor
same as before for m+
austere grove
cool so i dont have to change much then
balmy condor
yup
austere grove
stat prio still crit/mastery?
austere grove
i thought mastery was good for m+? maybe ive been reading some shitty guides
balmy condor
not with crit eb
austere grove
i see, thanks
sick oyster
@grizzled ruin CT simming higher than pb for you still?
austere grove
sorry one last question - is CT now better to take?
candid jasper
Looks like sub has dropped down again
balmy condor
Pb is pretty underwhelming
drifting cosmos
i miss pb god
low girder
i don't, i enjoy having control over my dmg
balmy condor
Yeah I don’t miss Pb god
But I do miss not having to cast ct single target all the time because the rest of the row is dog shit
low girder
yeah whole row sucks
low girder
for ST*
balmy condor
Yeah
quasi scroll
What's the ST opener now? ambush ambush envenom?
balmy condor
With ss and sub it’s gar snd gar rup
grizzled ruin
@sick oyster the 2 sim between 12dps of each other
sick oyster
thanks!
grizzled ruin
the same is for vigor with ds-np
royal lantern
not even there lel
low girder
yeah the nature dmg amp is at 58 and then the enrage dispel needs numbing poison which is lvl 54
royal lantern
enrage dispell is only with mindnumbing poison, and you get that one at 54^^
shiv right now is....a slow.....
halcyon grail
Depends on your item level
low girder
yeah that's gonna vary drastically
drifting cosmos
how many targets
quasi scroll
ok
drifting cosmos
seemed low
halcyon grail
See your stay weights for gear, alter essences traits, gems chants
halcyon grail
At 130 it's not unusual to be breaking 4.5
quasi scroll
is SS + sub viable for single target?
low girder
most of the top sims run one on the carapace chest
quasi scroll
my ST build used to be MA
drifting cosmos
ye
royal lantern
sub with ss was the thing you played in 8.3 for st
low girder
and on any multi-target ss will still be best more than likely
which is a lot of fights in nya
royal lantern
but tbh, right now its prepatch, stuff is wonky anyway
low girder
ye
drifting cosmos
actually 2-2.5k might be alright depends on your gears
quasi scroll
topgear is up to date?
low girder
long as you feed it your simc output yeah
drifting cosmos
did anyone else get a bug where your deadly poison suddenly turns into wound poison without you pressing anything?
sand whale
yep
manic igloo
anyone got a macro for dispatch talent? or would it be simpler to have a shift mod?
vestal wren
not possible without 3rd party addon iirc
ember rover
That is correct
But you can use modifier key
#showtooltip
/use [nomod] Mutilate
/use [mod:alt] Ambush
/cast [nomod] Mutilate
/cast [mod:alt] Ambush
vestal wren
that or download gnome sequencer
manic igloo
ty
lament aurora
mfw accidently had an echoing blades piece on when maut pulled 
iron valve
fwiw that macro can be condensed to
#showtooltip
/use [mod:alt] Ambush; Mutilate
drifting light
fwiw that macro can be condensed to
#showtooltip /use [mod:alt] Ambush; Mutilate
@iron valve
marble hemlock
Prepatch Information
Single Target Talents: 221xx21
AoE/M+ Talents: 221xx23
-Blindside can be played instead of EP on encounters where the execute would be helpful
-MP instead of EP if you want/need the 60% slow
Single Target Essences: Breath of the Dying or Crucible Major, Lucid Dreams, CnS and Breath of the Dying or Crucible Minor (depending on what you picked for Major)
Aoe/M+ Essences: Blood Major (when running multiple EB), Lucid, CnS, PP minor
-Can run Worldvein Major for ST if most of the raid are running it and you don't have to move often
-Can replace PP minor for m+ with Crucible or Breath for more prio/st damage
ST Azerite: Doubledose, Heart of Darkness, Clockwork Heart, Nothing Personal
M+ Azerite: Echoing Blades, Shrouded Suffocation, Heart of Darkness, Blightborne, Clockwork
**Stats ST:**Vers > Crit > Haste > Mastery
**Stats M+:**Crit > Vers > Mastery > Haste
Old 3xSS/Haste Build is still playable, just not as good anymore. Run with Alacrity and Crucible or Breath Major.
As always, try to sim yourself for more individualized and accurate results.
burnt dome
Anyone who has a sim for m+ with echoing blades? None of my pieces have EB but I could gamble a few, just wondering what the diff would be
tender folio
Well if you have full crit gear it can make a huge difference
marble hemlock
It's a pretty massive one if you get your hands on 2-3 EB pieces
Especially when the other pieces don't have useful aoe traits at all.
strange python
"Crucible of Breath Major" nice, my BotD now leaves a DoT
marble hemlock
I've just tried to combine the two since it doesn't really matter which one you choose 😄
The difference in sims for me was like 20dps
wary ice
My mind legit just made "of" into "or"
tender folio
So would we consider putting that big Agility gem on our gear now ?
mossy mulch
Which is better, +7 Versatility Runes or +7 Critical Runes?
Xen
tender folio
Oh nice we can put that +18 agi and also +12 agi from Legion together
minor thicket
void pecan
My sim window doesn't show the right gems 😐
marble hemlock
So it might depend on the individual gear-setup etc.
gray fjord
The results seem to vary a lot, from the stuff I've been trying, Jneu. Definitely worth looking into
marble hemlock
With CLF it generally depends a bit more on fight duration
i.e. anything >6m30 will be big for CLF compared to less than that
cause youd get another clf vendetta overlap
breath will most likely pull ahead on any fight where you can make good use of frequent resets on the other hand
or where execute matters more
vestal wren
clf is a good option if you don't like using wv
marble hemlock
think clf might also be better the more SS pieces you still run
marble hemlock
fleet whale
BoTE for ST simmed higher for me when compared to CLF
only by a couple of dps but it was higher
opaque mauve
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
opaque mauve
are any of these updated with SnD etc ?
royal lantern
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
royal lantern
afenar is updated
fleet whale
so my sim just dropped by about 250 dps overnight? And i'm wearing the same gear everything
opaque mauve
ty
grim skiff
Is sub much better than assa?
balmy condor
Outlaw still m+ kings
Sub will be strong in shadowlands
But they’re currently missing their rank2’s and conduit stuff that makes them strong
terse plaza
I see, Outlaw it is than, cheers
fleet whale
it's a minor change, but i think they updated poison graphics in pre-patch/sl
terse plaza
Holyshit dude i cant even solo Arachnoid now? feelsbadman
balmy condor
Scaling is wonky yeh
fleet whale
who's arachnoid?
terse plaza
Mechagon rare
celest sundial
How exactly does shiv work? Seems to only do a giant slow when I have crippling on and cant really make out what it does if I use deadly (or instant when in another spec)
balmy condor
Correct
nimble tinsel
Because that's all it does currently, we don't get Rank 2 of it until Shadowlands which adds the toxic blade mechanic, and we will also have Mind Numbing poison which it will amplify I believe
balmy condor
That’s all it does
fleet whale
it doesn't do much now
royal lantern
it is supposed too be toxic blade, but you unlock that at lvl 58
fleet whale
a nerfed toxic blade at that
celest sundial
ahaaaa, it all makes sense now
royal lantern
and for the enrage dispell you need mindnumbing, wich is lvl54
soooo...right now its just the slow^^
celest sundial
I was so sure I read we were gonna be able to sooth with it and assa use it as a offensive cd, just couldnt get it to work when I tested
but if its because we get that in the next rank then it makes sense
royal lantern
ye need mindnumbing for that
vital haven
yo assa is pretty fast
nimble tinsel
Soon TM
royal lantern
assa is fast because you have lucid and high stats
cant wait for people too realise that sub and assa slow down quite a bit in sl 
fleet whale
depending on your blindside procs sin has a pretty active pace in SL
but there are gonna be moments of 5 mutilates in a row and no procs
and it will feel bad
fleet whale
imagine making a talent that only gives you 50% crit for 3 seconds
royal lantern
imagine leaving that talent in the game when there is an item for all 3 specs that gives 100% for 5sec
🙂
fleet whale
it's 2 seconds now though
nimble tinsel
They should just make it so that if you go over 100% crit, anything used does Chaos Bolt style scaling 🙂
With the additional %
royal lantern
bruh
fleet whale
blindside makes things better
final saffron
I can start qqing now already if it makes you feel better
fleet whale
i do see myself getting frustrated with blindside rng though
royal lantern
cus this channel will be like the bfa sub channel then
fleet whale
and i can see people qqing about it on here too lol
fleet whale
ambush hits hard in SL
frigid kestrel
Roflmao people qqing now about sin are in for a huge surprise
royal lantern
bruh
im sure that most people that "complain" about that stuff are FotM sub rollers that try out all 3 specs lol
vestal wren
wdym, sin best spec due to wcl:
royal lantern
ye,like MY complaint about assassination in SL is that i dont like the more "passive dmg" gameplay
tropic ocean
i dont give a shit about wcl
frigid kestrel
Everything is weaksauce in comparison to that juicy white melee damage 
royal lantern
i liked the legion/bfa 50/50 dot/burst window playstyle it had
tropic ocean
dunno about raid as we cant raid yesterday and today cuz 50% of guild cant login
but
from playing 2 days m+
royal lantern
but like,thats a personal opinion
fleet whale
i did the first three bosses on heroic in NYA
royal lantern
we did a full hc clear
fleet whale
most people were heroic/mythic geared, did pretty well
royal lantern
played some bosses on sin and some as sub
fleet whale
BM hunter usually was on top
tropic ocean
so for m+ absolutely no problem in prepatch as sin
fleet whale
but that isn't surprising
royal lantern
and like, for me sin with SnD was way harder then sub
fleet whale
lol, i had moments of forgetting about snd
not in the opener
but sometimes in the middle of the fight
vestal wren
sub will not compete in aoe heavy content in pre patch
royal lantern
like, you need too watchout for quite some stuff and keeping it up all the time
sub on the otherhand more or less has the same gameplay loop over and over
tropic ocean
idk
royal lantern
i had 0 problems getting into it again
tropic ocean
snd is just a worse ct that we used in st before prepatch
with longer duration
so pretty easy imo
vestal wren
sin probably needs a update for snd to get energy regeneration on rank 2 instead of as
would make the pacing/use a lot more valuable
royal lantern
i still hate snd and the guy at blizzard that thought brining that ability back should be executed by a guilotine 🙂
fleet whale
it's iconic
royal lantern
royal lantern
iconic<--------------->good
tropic ocean
any button more to press is good
fleet whale
so would i
royal lantern
just look at hunters mark
fleet whale
but Kingsbane has a mixed response in this discord
vestal wren
snd does increase damage
royal lantern
yes,its "iconic"
vestal wren
so its not "irrelevant"
royal lantern
and people complained for such a long time that they want it back
tropic ocean
playstyle before corruption was shit
vestal wren
but without a energy component or similar it won't feel good to use
royal lantern
and now its more or less gone again
tropic ocean
so I kinda like having to do something more
only further hope is that they buff dashing scoundrel
vestal wren
but i would wait some beta iterations its possible that rank 2 changes
tropic ocean
cuz dashing scoundrel gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>>> doomblade
vestal wren
legendary items will likely see some changes too, they don't seem super balanced atm
its likely varolyn
not sure how much beta work is done this week given pre patch
fleet whale
most of the team is probably trying to fix pre patch issues
royal lantern
and yes fuu,i know that you can see snd as a long "dot" you place on yourself etc.....
doesnt change the fact that i think the ability is simply so boring :/
vestal wren
again, the issue atm is that it does not improve pacing, its just "passive damage"
energy regeneration should solve this issue
royal lantern
ye like i said, i dont like the more passive dmg assassination we get in SL
vestal wren
i don't like snd in general, but i think its fine on all 3 specs once assassinations rank 2 is fixed/changed
none of the specs need it
vestal wren
they had energy regeneration on snd before
arctic venture
Hero rotarion is not working?
vestal wren
it should work
tropic ocean
think if r2 gives energy rec
it will be good in first tier or 2nd
and after that useless
arctic venture
My hero is telling me Im missing some dependecy
royal lantern
i mean, you are balanced around keeping it up all the time
baseline ability and stuff
vestal wren
and after that useless
why?
tropic ocean
cuz you wont need the energy rec?
vestal wren
i am not sure what you expect
but if its the same amount of haste we had with corruption, that won't happen
royal lantern
we are litearlly balanced around that ability right now
like, our melee attack dmg is tuned around that 50%more attackspeed
would you not use SnD, you will do 50%less melee dmg then all other melee classes by default
tropic ocean
@vestal wren im talking about when u can wear 2nd legendary
with the dashing scoundrel legendary (former tier set in antorus)
you wont really struggle energy
vestal wren
i mean...
tropic ocean
so if snd will give energy rec paired with dashing scoundrel
you'll most likely overcap
vestal wren
playing deeper might be a option
tropic ocean
maybe
vestal wren
also you probably won't stack haste then
i don't think its black/white and dashing does not need to end up as the best choice
2 legendary items sound atm like it could create a lot of issues
but i would not rly make a argument around it right now
tropic ocean
it should end up as the best choice
but sadly atm its not
even though its the 1 legendary that makes your gameplay better
royal lantern
sadly most fun is not always best numbers^^
vestal wren
all dashing does is increase pacing
so in essence the same thing snd would do if you get energy regeneration
vestal wren
hard to say if that something i would argue creates "better gameplay"
tropic ocean
if it ends up overcapping
well its one of the few that actually enhances or differs your gameplay
using doomblade wont really change anything
rotationwise or apm-wise
despite being the best legendary atm
vestal wren
as corruption stacking sin would probably end up as the "best gameplay iteration" if that's the argument
tropic ocean
well personally only heard positive things about the haste stack gameplay
royal lantern
eeeeeeeehhhhhhhh
tropic ocean
and really enjoyed it as well
compared to ep sin
with pooling, pooling and more pooling
fleet whale
Antorus sin was my favorite iteration
royal lantern
you didnt do anything different with the 13515%haste assassination
tropic ocean
yeah but it didnt feel as boring
tropic ocean
pooling 40% of the time
vestal wren
but isn't that the argument here that higher energy income = good gameplay?
tropic ocean
doing something > doing nothing imo
vestal wren
i might misunderstood that else
tropic ocean
more energy = more apm = better gameplay as sin is super slow
giving energy rec to snd will either make
dashing scoundrel redundant
or snd
vestal wren
yes, this makes the argument right
tropic ocean
depending on numbers
so I personally think it will be a good idea until u can wear 2nd leggy
vestal wren
corruption = more apm = more energy (to a point where energy bar is useless) = better gameplay
tropic ocean
but I'd rather have an effect that is beneficial whole expansion
vestal wren
i disagree on that 
tropic ocean
and since theres already a rogue item that increase energy gain (which most likely will be used once you can wear 2) they could also do something else with snd
cuz I doubt if snd will give energy
you will run both
but thats also a general issue within the design of the items
no point to use any other legendary besides x
vestal wren
i don't think having a super high pacing is good gameplay esp. not for sin
tropic ocean
think even in antorus the only time i didnt use master assassin + zoldyck was in kingaroth where I used boots
to have vendetta for every add spawn or so
frigid kestrel
I mean, doesn’t that mean you have a buffet different option for your second Lego?
tropic ocean
not really no?
vestal wren
gcd capped gameplay seems to go against the design ideas behind the spec
frigid kestrel
Doesn’t mean SnD will be useless
tropic ocean
it will just remove one more legendary from your pool
fleet whale
yeah we have great options such as tiny toxic blades
vestal wren
yes nullfox, i assume you just run other legendary items if it becomes this extreme
tropic ocean
cuz with current tuning doomblade is #1
2nd could be dashing scoundrel (which also changes gameplay)
vestal wren
tuning will happen on legendary items
tropic ocean
but if ur energy rec is covered with snd
u will just use zoldyck+doomblade
which has 0 impact on your gameplay
because its just passive dmg
frigid kestrel
As I said earlier this morning giving SnD some regen would be ideal.
But opinions
vestal wren
will come down to how big the energy generaiton from snd is
tropic ocean
and no clue why they reduced zoldyck from 30% to 20%
vestal wren
it does not mean that its a huge boost
frigid kestrel
I think %20 is fair
vestal wren
idk how much it was in earlier xpacs
strange python
I know it's just prepatch, but going through heroic and mythic nya so far has been kinda fun
vestal wren
30% seems high
tropic ocean
seemed pretty fine in legion
strange python
Haven't really been running into any energy problems.... snd feels nice
frigid kestrel
Ye, it feels clunky af in Beta but %30 might just make it haste corruption stacked high
tropic ocean
??
frigid kestrel
As soon as you hit the Maw all that is gone
tropic ocean
how do u not run into energy problems
strange python
I don't know?
tropic ocean
and how is not slow compared to before prepatch
strange python
It is slow compared to before patch, but it's not THAT much slower
strange python
?
vestal wren
it is if you stacked corruption
tropic ocean
or more
strange python
I can still pretty much spam my abilities without issue for the most part
tropic ocean
what
strange python
What are you not getting lol
frigid kestrel
Honestly I don’t feel big energy issues in pre-patch neither. I just don’t have an unlimited amount of energy anymore ...... which is how it’s supposed to be.
strange python
^
tropic ocean
you must do something wrong rotation-wise then
strange python
Definitely not
vestal wren
lucid makes the pacing in pre patch nice
strange python
It's very nice right now
tropic ocean
u still starve
vestal wren
it was a bit absurd with ahste stacking and corruption before pre patch
strange python
"starve"
tropic ocean
yes
royal lantern
people forget how HUGE the impact of lucid actually is
strange python
I think your definition of starve is a bit extreme
tropic ocean
starve as in you dont have energy to press an ability
royal lantern
on rogue/feral
tropic ocean
which you didnt have before prepatch
royal lantern
like, a lucid proc on mut is 25energy for free
tropic ocean
with haste stack
frigid kestrel
None of what it feels like currently matters though, because it will in fact be energy starved once you hit the maw
So if you think it’s energy starved now ...... you ain’t seen nothing yet
strange python
Yes
strange python
Right now it feels completely fine imo
tropic ocean
theres no difference besides how often you starve
tropic ocean
its not an opinion
though
starving is you dont have energy to use an ability
which in current gameplay you have
the only thing that will change with sl release
you have more time where you cant do anything
compared to now
tropic ocean
which is a huge step backwards from a spec that was gcd capped a week ago
strange python
Just wait a half a second and boom you get your ability
frigid kestrel
How long have you been playing rogue? Because the way it’s playing now has been the state for a while
Only changes with corruption
tropic ocean
since release of the game
"it isn't that bad"
heres your pooling time
so no clue what you are doing
strange python
Playing the game? idk
In raid it feels fine
Can't speak for m+
but raid feels a-okay right now
frigid kestrel
How much haste do you have? Maybe I have to much and that’s the issue. I have no clue how you are waiting that much
ripe cairn
i just noticed that we lost that one skill i get from the talents near the higher lvls 🤔
vestal wren
again, i don't think assassination is designed to have "no downtime"
quasi scroll
simbot says 3216 dps and I just ran normal wrathion and got 2912
tropic ocean
whatever you had with max ilvl before prepatch
-haste corruptions
and gems switched to versa
vestal wren
i think a lot of ppl think that it should be gcd caped
frigid kestrel
Ye, I have %47 and with procs I’m steady around 80 - 90
quasi scroll
this sound decent?
frigid kestrel
That’s the diff
vestal wren
esp. those who played it with corruption
strange python
frigid kestrel
Ye, I never changed anything from corruptions
strange python
My stats from last night
vestal wren
i don't think gcd capped is "fluid"
frigid kestrel
^
vestal wren
the spec has even with lower pacing a quite good gameplay flow
snd maybe puts the maintainance effort a bit to high
tropic ocean
how is gcd capped not fluid
when u have no downtime
compared to spending 1/3 of the fight auto-attacking
vestal wren
this is why a change to rank 2 snd is expected, it would make sense to "make up" this pacing change by increasing the energy generation
and it would make pressing snd feel a lot better
frigid kestrel
I always thought that strategically pooling for optimal bursts was always a sin thing to do, and GCD capping makes that moot.
strange python
tropic ocean
it was "ok" in ep
but we currently spend 1/3 of the fight doing nothing
literally
strange python
It's Cara so not purely ST but I honestly felt fine the entire fight
tropic ocean
carapace is a bad example
with downtime
and cleave
@loud light thats pooling
but we dont pool as much
doing nothing =//= pooling
strange python
I mean the only cleave really is in phase 1.... I don't cleave anything after tha
that*
tropic ocean
from your own log
lots of starving
even during bl
if you check the same thing on your rogue companion
you'll see the difference
strange python
Right, and I'm not saying it's not there, but I'm saying that the spec still feels somewhat fast paced to play. I wouldn't say it's slow by any means and I certainly didn't feel like there was ever really a moment where I felt like I was dicked by not having energy
vestal wren
i think it feels slow on beta
strange python
Yeah?
tropic ocean
so you know the difference?
strange python
Yes
tropic ocean
between "can press anything always" to
vestal wren
and as explained earlier snd contributes to that
tropic ocean
cant press anything for x amount of time
strange python
Ye
tropic ocean
yeah
im not arguing if you like it or not
thats to each individual
but the apm heavily reduced
strange python
x amount of time being maybe half a second every now and then
tropic ocean
and will even more in sl
its not maybe half a second
I linked it to you straight from raidbots
you spend around 20% of your fight time
waiting
to be able to press something
not sure how much it will rise in sl launch
maybe to 30 or 35%
marble hemlock
Not sure how you can look at that graph and with a straight face say "youre spending 20% of your time doing nothing".
You'd have to filter for time spent below 50 energy to do that.
vestal wren
the argument is that you should have the 50 energy every gcd thats not a finisher 😉
so that the spec feels fluid
marble hemlock
I disagree with that, strongly.
marble hemlock
As someone else said, Assa has always been a spec where pooling for TB windows felt like the optimal way to play. Hitting 45-50energy/second and having a gcd-filled gameplay would make that moot.
tropic ocean
but having conditions if cp = x then y if not z
marble hemlock
Between TB, EP and Envenom clipping, Having ~40-45apm on Assa is more than enough to feel good
frigid kestrel
^
fleet whale
yeah 45 is the ideal spot imo
frigid kestrel
Thats exactly what i have been trying to explain
fleet whale
maybe 50 max with end of expansion gear
marble hemlock
Ehh
I'd rather stick to 45 and have more powerful TB windows instead
By stacking mastery or crit instead of haste
tropic ocean
Thats exactly what i have been trying to explain
@frigid kestrel you don't need to explain to me what you feel or not, thats your own thing
but its not an argument against starving energy
when the spec does
🤷
fleet whale
idk, while it was a nice novelty, 8.3 corruption pretty much deleted energy as a resource
marble hemlock
8.3 Assa was awful
It pushed the spec from a high sustained DPS spec even further into a 2min burst CD spec
fleet whale
energy based classes should not be global capped imo
marble hemlock
That had low sustained-DPS despite having much higher APM
grizzled jay
@fleet whale Yah but they also shouldn't end up like WW either
tropic ocean
thats 3 dd 3 hod 484 ilvl + lucid
marble hemlock
Whats your point?
tropic ocean
as above
marble hemlock
I feel like an axios reporter being handed some graphs right now.
fleet whale
i'm also not in the crowd that a spec has to be global locked to be considered well designed
marble hemlock
With no context or point behind it.
fleet whale
in that case havoc would be the best designed spec in the history of wow
marble hemlock
Thats not a filter?
tropic ocean
it shows you < 50 energy
marble hemlock
I was saying that you cannot tell based on the energy-graph in warcraftlogs, how often he was actually sitting on GCDs. You just threw out a blanket "20%" with no actual data or filters to base that on.
marble hemlock
Well if you dont mention doing a sim for it anywhere, it is not clear that thats what youre talking about.
marble hemlock
I'd say thats
tropic ocean
which is not necessarily bad but 1) a huge step back from before prepatch gameplay where you had 0 waiting time
marble hemlock
Right where it should be
tropic ocean
but it will get significantly worse
with sl release
probably worse than bfa release
fleet whale
blindside will help matters
marble hemlock
Blindside will make up for some of that, so could MfD. Or dashing, depending on where the tuning ends up.
fleet whale
and alac will make up for it
tropic ocean
im already thinking about if its not super far behind
fleet whale
we didn't have alac in bfa launch
marble hemlock
You'll also "feel" better about that pooling or spending time, due to having Shiv burst windows back
tropic ocean
I'll just play dashing even if doomblade is better
summer marten
You also didnt have snd to keep up at bfa launch
fleet whale
SnD won't do anything to effect apm
tropic ocean
and we'll also lose a lot more stats
fleet whale
it doesn't add or subtract from it
tropic ocean
with sl launch
fleet whale
Whisp was saying we would end up around 45 APM with nathria gear and blindside
but that may have been speculation
tropic ocean
will see when game released
but that should be better than bfa launch
I think bfa release was 38?
or so
marble hemlock
Downtime isnt a bad thing, and its actually required to make talents like EP or abilities like Shadowtechniques more than just a glorified DPS increase.
fleet whale
EP was basically a passive 10% damage increase in 8.3 lol
marble hemlock
If you didnt have windows of downtime to play around short-term buffs like EP/Envenom, youd also have no ability to pool before TB to have some dynamic gameplay in your rotation
marble hemlock
No downtime for sub would mean constnatly overcapping CP without you being able to play around that/play efficiently
tropic ocean
personally somewhat between 50~60apm would be great
little more wouldnt be bad also
vestal wren
subtlety has downtime too
marble hemlock
I mean
50-60 means
You'd literally be gcd capped
On singletarget
With no downtime
No pooling
How is that good?
fleet whale
you can't get much higher than 60 apm as assassination
fleet whale
our gcd is hard locked at 1.0
i think Seli's argument is that
if assassin is global locked
marble hemlock
You would lose something thats always been part of a rogues way to play their class at maximum efficiency - pooling energy around burst windows/CDs to get more DPS out of your spec
fleet whale
things like envenom buff and ep matter less and less
tropic ocean
true
fleet whale
since you'll very easily maintain it's duration
summer marten
"always"
marble hemlock
Whats the problem with having a few seconds of downtime once in a while?
tropic ocean
Whats the problem with having not?
I really enjoyed 8.3 playstyle
playing around exsang and vendetta
without lots of downtime
marble hemlock
Ill say it for a fourth time
marble hemlock
You would lose something thats been key to the spec and class
FOR 15 FUCKING YEARS
loud light
have you played assn in past expansions? 8.3 is like a different spec
vestal wren
warrior and dh are gcd capped. If being gcd capped is a concern its probably better to switch class
marble hemlock
Just cause you cant handle a non-spammy gameplay and feel bored, doesnt mean I want someone with your proclivities to ruin something thats been absolute core to the spec for over a decade.
tropic ocean
because something that has been for x years
marble hemlock
Why do you want Rogue to play exactly like DH/Warr then?
tropic ocean
must be the correct thing right
its not "exactly" like dh or warr
I just really enjoyed the exsang playstyle way more
summer marten
Its not even true though
tropic ocean
than the early bfa, shadowlands playstyle
loud light
just play outlaw 
fleet whale
I'm probably going to get flamed, but i would actually axe exsang from the talent tree
marble hemlock
Yes. It creates interesting opportunities like pooling before TB windwos to get 3 Envenoms in there instead of 2. It allows you to clip EPs for 20-25seconds and then sit around for 5-10seconds to get longer windows of high EP uptime
fleet whale
and have sin go all in on the poison theme
tropic ocean
which it was in legion
marble hemlock
Thats meaningful min-maxing of the spec
marble hemlock
It wasnt?
marble hemlock
You had 2 completely different builds with different stat prios, gear prios, talents etc.
Poison and Bleed
tropic ocean
🤔
marble hemlock
Did you even play Legion Assa?
vestal wren
i did predict this conversation.
I think there are a lot of people who rly liked the gcd capped iteration even if the gameplay is not intended.
There will always be 2 opinions.
tropic ocean
and as said earlier think iirc the only thing I ever changd was
boots leggy for kingaroth
vestal wren
it makes no sense to have a iteration that removes a core concept of the spec (energy) from the equation.
tropic ocean
it doesn't necessarily has to remove it
marble hemlock
You could play a bleed build or a poison build, with different stats. The alacrity/exsang memes came in later, but it wasnt that far behind poison builds that were more heavily into mastery stacking for example.
If you want the spec to have 50-60 apm, it will remove that.
fleet whale
I have the opinion that i don't think it's a good idea to have 2 "specs" within one (bleed vs poison)
marble hemlock
Unless you lower the GCD
frigid kestrel
I don’t get it, he says he’s played sin sin the game released..... but now has a problem with it not being GCD capped
vestal wren
but people who come from dh/warrior are used to this concept so i can relate that those prefer that
fleet whale
Frost dks have been going through this issue for years and that's at the core of it
tropic ocean
@frigid kestrel who says I have a problem with it
but is it a sin to like something that was there in the past more?
marble hemlock
If its pronounced enough Varo I think it can work, like it did in Legion
But they mixed poison and bleed and without any clear purpose
Bleeds only serve as a way to generate energy, meaning multidotting bleeds has become almost pointless
Because the amount of energy generate doesnt justify the resources spent on them for prio dmg for example
fleet whale
they could make venomous wounds deal damage again
marble hemlock
So you dont multibleed for priodmg, cause the bonus is barely noticeable. We've been through this countless times during Jaina progression when people wondered if it was worth multidotting ballistas or the tide elemental in P3
Only damage gain on ST from multidotting is if you do it while you have forced downtime on the boss
Like you had in Jaina P1 or Uunat
tropic ocean
from my pov the design was broken since going into bfa
fleet whale
i think blizz tried to make bleed build more viable by adding bleed damage to our mastery
fleet whale
but i guess that just made things messier
frigid kestrel
Either way, I’m flabbergasted that you are just now having this issue that has been a things since I can remember
marble hemlock
I like the fact that Assa isnt as spammy a spec, I only wish it would be more punishing (or offer greater reward) for pooling properly, which right now it kinda doesnt.
tropic ocean
not just now, also from going from legion into bfa
because the legion playstyle wasnt super fast
but it also wasnt as garbage as first few months of bfa
fleet whale
legion we had a lot of crit
marble hemlock
Yeah, cause Antorus Assa had Dashing Scoundrel
fleet whale
and that artifact trait that made mut a higher chance to crit
marble hemlock
It was very slow, slower than BfA, in Tomb/NH
fleet whale
so you got a lot of 4 cp muts
tropic ocean
now we'll ahve dashing scoundrel again
tropic ocean
except its so badly tuned that you just take passive dmg legendary
that has 0 gameplay impact
marble hemlock
SL Dashing is like at 20% of the powerlevel that Legion dashing was
fleet whale
i wouldn't say doomblade has zero gameplay implications
marble hemlock
And that is fine. Having Assa at high APM is actually a problem because it creates aoe scaling issues for the spec
tropic ocean
atm it doesnt no?
you dont play around doomblade
but its passive from your natural rotation
marble hemlock
You would still try
fleet whale
since envenom will hit harder with it
tropic ocean
yeah
fleet whale
it will make shiv usage more valuable
tropic ocean
in an 8 sec window
marble hemlock
To pool around EP windows and get as many high-doomblade ticks into EP as you can
tropic ocean
so the rotation doesnt really differ
the dot will most likely be up at all times
and you'll pool before shiv window
errr
ep i mean
candid jasper
What is doomblade?
marble hemlock
The dot itself? Sure. How powerful the dot will be, will depend on if you play around it correctly or not.
tropic ocean
new leggy
candid jasper
Ahh
tropic ocean
that makes mutilate add a dot for 20% of the dmg
for 8 seconds
and buffs envenom by 5% per bleed on the target
fleet whale
wow bloodfang leggo got a big buff
9k bleed damage over 6 seconds
bloodfang new meta, forget doomblade, forget dashing scoundrel
when seli gets back, he's gonna love Tiny Toxic blade overhaul
so amazing... well placed steel build inc
fleet anchor
Will have to see how those stack
90% AP base isn't bad for Shiv
Although doubt that is competitive with other legendaries
fleet anchor
Yeah, that is what I had suggested for some time 😄
fleet whale
i wonder if ironically that's a nerf though
subtle tundra
its not about the meters, its about how it feels
fleet whale
true, i like this iteration more
subtle tundra
it absolutely did nothing to gameplay before
fleet anchor
I mean it's not about it being a nerf or buff at this point yes
It's about the fact that SnD had zero gameplay feel for Assassination compared to the others
And it was silly to have an additional special R2 passive just for Assassination
That didn't even address that
fleet whale
yes i know it think it's a good change
tame tangle
The gameplay feel it caused was making it feel worse
fleet whale
bracers got buffed too
lean marten
🔮
muted ridge
They wanna make Venom rush + Doomblade a viable build?
vestal wren
energy regeneration baby, we did just talk about it earlier
fleet whale
i know it was a big talking point like just 2 hours ago lol
the energy regen on this could potentially mean we don't have to be locked into vigor so much too
while also being good with vigor, to help give even more energy regen
vestal wren
i don't think it will change that
fleet whale
i mean i like vigor the most on that row anyway
vestal wren
but i think the rotation will be a bit smoother
not sure how much dps impact it has
its not as extreme as 30%
fleet whale
i said earlier it could potentially be a nerf compared to the attack speed
vestal wren
the attack speed never worked
fleet whale
but it will make gameplay better
vestal wren
^^
fleet whale
well if it did work, in theory
vestal wren
could find that out easy with spelldata overwrites, but won't do that now
fleet whale
yeah there isn't really a point to
i'm curious about the new shiv leggo and the conduit
along with baseline shiv being buffed
frigid kestrel
I wonder how %10 is gonna feel
fleet whale
well rogues generate 10 energy every second, and this is with no haste or anything
vigor gives 10% regen
SnD 10% regen
add in alacrity haste and whatever haste you have leftover, probably around 13-14 energy per second
just from your energy regenerating, i'm not counting vm procs
buoyant moat
what is everyones opinion on the new tiny toxic blade?
fleet whale
have to see some sims
not particularly exciting though, best case scenario it's just a big hit every 25 seconds
can't really see it beating the other leggos like doomblade or zoldyck
fleet anchor
Yeah the passive actually never worked
Because it didn't affect the spell 😛
So it's not really possible for it to be a DPS decrease haha
marble hemlock
Wonder if its additive/multiplicative with Vigor
And if it scales other sources of energy generation as well
Afaik Vigor applied to external sources of energy-generation at times
Increasing those by 10% as well
fleet whale
well i have some good news for you
it actually works in beta lol
unlike the old snd rank 2
low girder
nice
fleet whale
improved poisons rank 2 though still doesn't seem to work
idk, they should just remove that passive
surreal solar
Zoldyck Nerf Reverted... so happy, Doomblade still looks appealing regardless, so I might get that one second
fleet whale
yes