how does perma haste not impact your gearing choice?
#assassination
vast forum
that's almost entirely false
grizzled jay
You don't start stacking Vers because Alac exists
vast forum
there's no way you can know what stat we'll need
it will always depend on tuning
and damage distribution by abilities
grizzled jay
Has zero to do with damage distribution of abilities. we get energy based on bleed ticks, so high haste increases how much damage we can do per minute by increasing our resource.
grizzled jay
none of those increase resource generation
haste increase damage and resource generation
it increases damage twice, if you want to think of it that way
vast forum
but not all damage
it only increases bleed damage and how often you can use other abilities
grizzled jay
bleed and DP, but yes
vast forum
but if we end up being tuned to only do relevant damage in vend/shiv windows, haste is useless
because we can be global capped in those windows anyway
grizzled jay
has that ever happened outside of DD in EP, where our only relevant damage is in Vendetta lol
wasn't that the case in Legion and we still stacked Haste
where a lot of our dam was in vendetta or kingsbane windows
grizzled jay
i wonder if the vanish rupture legion playstyle will come back in SL or if Subt is still just too strong
Ambush being back probably means Subt is king again
tender garden
How close is Sin to Sub On the beta
honest vessel
kinda close, but it doesnt really matter til tuning
which we are still waiting for
tender garden
Does that apply to m+ as well or meh
topaz axle
Not close at all lol, sin and outlaw are severly undertuned when compared to Sub. About 600-700 dps behind in single target, which is about 25% of overall DPS
icy ember
wits 
fleet whale
i'm still not a fan of shadow vault being added in the game
icy ember
isn't that the ability that locks you to the ground for half a sec
fleet whale
yeah, but the locking part is part of the issue
icy ember
what is the other issue w/it?
fleet whale
it's a powerful aoe finisher for sub, when sub already has two aoe talent options
fleet whale
it's basically another tool that sub has
so sub ends up being good at everything
while diluting the other two specs
charred ermine
Shadow vaults just like whirling dragon punch
near pilot
Not close at all lol, sin and outlaw are severly undertuned when compared to Sub. About 600-700 dps behind in single target, which is about 25% of overall DPS
@topaz axle this taking the 50% leggo nerf?
delicate bone
yes
fleet whale
sub is still significantly more powerful
so either sin and outlaw are undertuned
or sub is overtuned
near pilot
has sepsis overtaken bonespike?
topaz axle
probably a bit of both as outlaw and sin are simming slightly below average and sub is simming as the best melee spec atm
normal olive
Who has awaken the ancient one
void pecan
He's not awake yet
quaint sequoia
really hope they buff sin, dont want to play sub
bleak spoke
Would ideally be the case that it’s well balanced so everyone can play what they feel like on any given pull/preferential damage profiles
Like if I’m play subtlety on 2t cleave cuz it’s better than sin even in its most awkward target count then I’m mad
surreal solar
im just gonna play the specs i like, if the class i choose is meh, ill grab the next char i have, and repeat if that spec is bleh
strange python
Could someone please advise me on what essences and stats to focus on for 20+ keys as assassination?
Corruption too.
strange python
TYVM
balmy condor
np
quaint sequoia
Gonna miss ss in SL
quaint sequoia
Could have been a leggo tbh
strange python
@balmy condor What weapon enchants should I run?
balmy condor
deadly/vers nav
balmy condor
sorry, kitava's annoying
CT usually
PB is okay on tyran weeks
especially if you run a TTK
doesn't really matter too much tbh
prepatch in 2ish weeks
I wouldn't bother
strange python
@balmy condor TYVM again. Sorry for bugging you so much but there is so much conflicting information in the guides and the sim addons.
balmy condor
sin fine
balmy condor
its 8pm
green basalt
Ah
balmy condor
but also lowkey 24h stream lul
green basalt
4 in de morming here
surreal solar
11pm here
green basalt
Will keep my beloved rogue as an alt 👐
grizzled jay
@balmy condor love you buddy
balmy condor
muted cove
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
lunar wave
@balmy condor how’s assassination looking for m+?
balmy condor
not great
balmy condor
does less damage than sub, is bound to vanish more, and doesn't have gouge like outlaw
if slaughter poison gets buffed there's a possibility that it'll scale with conduits and stuff really nice for the fok/poison dream
but we don't know that yet
lunar wave
It doesn’t currently spread with fok, right?
balmy condor
well it does
but its identical to deadly atm
so there's no point
they changed the wording on it to "an empowered lethal poison"
which is ominous if they tune it to be better than deadly
minor pendant
real quick question... im rolling to rogue for sl is it ok to use Mutilate on 3 cps ?
or use rapture or evenum instead then to not overcap on cp?
balmy condor
yes
you mut on 3 with vigor
and mut on 4 with deeper
finish at 4 with vigor, 5 with deeper
minor pendant
Oh okay thank you
grizzled jay
@balmy condor idk if you heard but Slaughter poison DoT + application damage no longer scales with Slaughter Scars
balmy condor
yeah I thought so
grizzled jay
but FoK conduit is still nice
minor pendant
oh and whats whit toxic blade ? do i use it on cd or wait for energy and cp for evenom ?
balmy condor
right now, tb on cd
pool for it if you can in single target
in prepatch we don't use shiv at all
minor pendant
okay
balmy condor
and in shadowlands it'll just on cooldown probably just like now
minor pendant
ok thank you c:
balmy condor
gotchu
grizzled jay
you think so? with low haste i figured pooling would be more common
balmy condor
probably will be more relevant
but apm seems similar to beginning of the tier
and shiv itself is worse than tb
grizzled jay
also depends on your legendary too
you'd want to pool when using Scoundrel for sure
balmy condor
well yeah
grizzled jay
Since it got fixed and doesn't guarantee 100% crit anymore lol
balmy condor
minmaxing envenom uptime is basically the only thing we could do now as well
lunar wave
Oh blizzard can’t you just let us have fun
gray warren
Kingsbane 
placid dawn
kingsbane should be a talent 😦
balmy condor
true
amber quail
in the early game we suffer for regen and right now dmgs are not tuned yet but: we need something anyomore to be competitive. i whish a CT that spread dots as the legendary shiv, them can redux initial dmg moving it as a fully aoe talents. Also i whish more regen by passive(about 2ep more). personally i think that with this few things sin will be good. ofc a reconsideration of shiv/DS legos but don't really need it at that point.
we are exacty the same class with no stuructural changing in SL
this ofc IMHO
cannot be proud to be a class that consider BEST LEGO which one that increase regen instead of dmg....this mean blizzard knows wht to do, but lazy to do
oh...last thing: VENDETTA as personal buff instead of "on target debuff"
pure mauve
hello im lvling a rogue for SL and i gout a doubt about this legendary: Dashing Scoundrel Envenom also increases the critical strike chance of your poisons by 30%, and their critical strikes generate 2 Energy. How much time increse the critical strike chance?? 
amber quail
in beta i see poison as sin doing same dmg as sub. not so logic thing
@pure mauve your crit +30%
balmy condor
it increases your crit as tied to envenom
so its linked to your envenom uptime
deadly poison is doing quite a bit more than instant poison on the other specs as well
balmy condor
without conduits, yes
pure mauve
so for example if u do enevenom with 5 combo points the extra +30% crits on poisons is for 6 seconds?
balmy condor
correct bigboy
normal olive
Henlo Bongstyr what does crit do
pure mauve
surreal solar
oh thats neat, so the dashing scoundrel is just "more envenom's plz"
pure mauve
anyone knows how we upgrade conduit lvls?
pure mauve
hope im not force to pvp
balmy condor
probably will
surreal solar
blizz likes to make everyone do everything
gusty mirage
blizz likes to make everyone do everything
@surreal solar
pure mauve
which lvl of conduit venthyr outscales necrolord?
balmy condor
N/A
gusty mirage
@pure mauve it’s beta brother, no one knows exact details yet of how things will go live. Check back in like 3 weeks and there might be some answers
olive lotus
rogue friends, when should I be fitting toxic blade into my rotation?
balmy condor
on live, prepatch, or beta
On live and beta, cast on cd, pool energy in advance for it, on prepatch, don’t cast it at all
The r2 effect doesn’t unlock until lvl 56
pure mauve
always renew rupture and garrote b4 toxic blade?
lost sentinel
blindside looks much improved in SL, any chance its viable?
oh, pin says its used, for ST only of course
is there anything like shrouded suffocation in SL?
surreal solar
nope
lost sentinel
dashing scoundrel seems hot, always like the ton of energy generation with sin
amber quail
@lost sentinel not so much regen in SL right now
ionic hemlock
has anyone else noticed exsang doesn't show up on details? I was curious to see what it did dmg wise
delicate bone
I mean it just makes current bleeds tick faster/stronger, you shouldn’t see it on details
ionic hemlock
Ah for some reason I was expecting some kinda aura or buff , but yeah common sense shoulda prevailed there lol
I was trying to find out how much more I was getting with it to see if I could bother with it while leveling
olive lotus
will assassin die in SL cuz sub is so strong?
grizzled jay
No.
timber laurel
Akrololz was destroying people in arena yesterday with slaugher as assa
tardy mantle
Didnt sub just get a nerf like a day or two ago?
tardy mantle
Ahhh
grim jay
I recently heard that there are many people feeling sin with slaughter might be better than sub in pvp, obviously depending on setup aswell
not only akrololz being good
timber laurel
yeah
grim jay
really tempting to go venthyr tho
but who knows how theyll balance out stuff in the next weeks
:_D
timber laurel
I hope they buff assa because I heard the conquest vendor has lots of haste+versa gear
easy gearing
iron valve
wouldn't venthyr be worse than wound poison for assassination pvp?
fleet whale
wound is kind of weak sauce atm
iron valve
I guess you're getting deadly damage plus partial MS plus healing on yourself
grizzled jay
Slaughter both reduces and steals the healing
So it's strictly better than Wound now
iron valve
but it's like 15% or 7% MS vs wound's 20%
subtle drift
I heard that slaughter is better with conduit rank 15 or so
How long does it take to get rank 15?
Really want to play venthyr and not necro
grim jay
^ same
but I'm fine with necro aswell if I need to play it
I just dont see myself liking the other 2 covenants theme-wise
subtle drift
Being a vampire rogue just feels right
grizzled jay
MS is reduced in half in PvP so it's 7.5% of Slaughter vs. 12% of Wound but with Slaughter you get the healing as well.
iron valve
wound is 20%
grizzled jay
Wound is 24% reduced in half to 12%
iron valve
wound is 40% reduced in half to 20%
grizzled jay
grizzled jay
iron valve
so it's 12% for sub and outlaw and 20% for assassination
fleet whale
i think it's 12% for sub
timber laurel
does master poisoner work on slaughter poison
iron valve
yup
subtle drift
Okay i just read the conduit got nerfed so it's not BiS anymore i guess.
(slaughter conduit)
grizzled jay
not nerfed, bugfixed
rough breach
Any suggestions for assassination rogue streamer to watch?
fleet whale
I think Seli streams sometimes
frigid kestrel
M+ Keys : I watch Ryfie
Raid I watch : ?????? A lot of people lol
rough breach
I’ll check out those names, thanks.
strange python
gonna be good times when shadowlands comes out. planning to go venthhyr. fuck the necrolords lol
grizzled jay
Trill didn't save any of his WF vods =[
balmy condor
@pure mauve Just refresh rupture and garrote normally, don’t refresh them in Tb, and utilize pandemic
@subtle drift @grim jay venthyr is still weaker with max conduits atm. You’re thinking of sub
@timber laurel yes mp works with slaughter
@subtle drift r1 is rupture yes (also the conduit will still be bis because there’s multiple conduit slots)
Don’t mind me just catching up
subtle drift
Oh, nice.
verbal mantle
crimson palm
@balmy condor can u pls ask someone to ask koffing what race is best in shadowlands
grizzled jay
it's Human
balmy condor
balmy condor
grizzled jay
Did a Necrotic Wake with Bloodfang, just to see how it did now that FoK can proc it. And...
It needs a little numerical help lol
But it did heal me as much as Fleshcraft did over the dungeon
Here's my damage breakdown. Below Oil was Ambush, Bloodfang, Internal Bleeding, and Shiv.
I wasn't using Katar Conduit so that impacted my AoE DPS. On bosses though I slapped
grizzled jay
Breakdown of a single boss fight with the Mut/Envenom leggo
But over the whole dungeon, Mutilated Flesh did about as much damage as Bloodfang, but that's expected of a ST leggo.
@ me if anyone wants me to use a specific Leggo
surreal rivet
@grizzled jay how does assa compare to sub? is assa worth playing?
surreal solar
tuning's still not done tho, so that might shift a bit
balmy condor
ye
balmy condor
I'm taking all those numbers with a pretty big grain of salt
grizzled jay
It's just a nice baseline imo
surreal rivet
aight
grizzled jay
It's an X.0 patch so there will very likely be a 'best' DPS spec for every class that has more than 1 DPS spec, but you can still get CE as whatever spec you wanna play.
surreal rivet
kk
grizzled jay
dank ring
shrewd ether
hi boys, I'm new to discord, haha I had no idea it existed.
I already tried the surrogate in the beta, now I am with the assassin (it is my main), I am testing it with the legendary of the tier antorus, but I would like to ask you about the second statistics 😄
balmy condor
what?
shrewd ether
i am asking about secondary stats for rogue Assassin in beta
balmy condor
they're all pretty close
balmy condor
probably not
grizzled jay
haste is the place
balmy condor
ye haste is first prio usually
there might be some janky with m+
but even there, haste seems pretty good
grizzled jay
im going haste/mast with MP for M+, it feels good
Blindside probably the play in ST raid for the energy conservation
balmy condor
that.... doesn't seem great
grizzled jay
Well both DP proc and tick are in my top 5 damage profile
The other two are Melee and SBS lol
But I was using Zoldyck's
grizzled jay
I think it'd be fine with Scoundrel's too
balmy condor
with how much melee and sbs are doing
grizzled jay
I think the uptime on EP might be too low to out-do +30% dam on DP
that and the +20% boost on Numbing in M+ is very strong
balmy condor
idk I'm too lazy to do napkin math
grizzled jay
lol
balmy condor
but the uptime doesn't seem like a problem
you get a really high uptime currently running 0 haste on your gear
grizzled jay
well that's with lucid right
and then the 4 other people in your party using Vitas lol
balmy condor
well lucid really only helps uptime single target
grizzled jay
on a sidenote, the two PvP trinkets are both +haste 
i hope that's not our two best trinkets
balmy condor
and 4 people running vitas seems kinda sketch
grizzled jay
lol
there is one that looks good for us
i think i posted it in here
oh its the Darkmoon card
that + the on-use pvp trinket
err, proc*
balmy condor
that seems arguably worse than the other 2
grizzled jay
are you memeing because it says 0-0 lol
balmy condor
no
balmy condor
I'm serious because secondary stats are actually tragic
I did a couple stat plots for funsies
and agi starts higher, stays higher, and the difference between them gets bigger
grizzled jay
they made main stat matter a lot yah
balmy condor
I pushed it by like 1000 stat just to see what it'll be like after a couple patches
and it was comically bad
agi was legit like 2x+ on every other stat
add on that there's more agi on an item than stat
and its kinda omegalul
balmy condor
well ye it's to be expected that it gets worse and worse
but I couldn't find any place where agi wasn't on top of every secondary
so the pvp trinkets with on use agi and some stat
grizzled jay
well the darkmoon card is base agi with an on-use haste wouldn't you want that
balmy condor
probably fine
grizzled jay
or are you saying base haste with on-use agi would be better
grizzled jay
we can't escape being forced to do BGs 
balmy condor
but if you're popping a trinket thats supposed to give you X haste
and its just hitting the DR zones
that's kinda yucky
flat ocean
its not
balmy condor
and usually with placeholder numbers
flat ocean
i was just adding that on
balmy condor
they're pretty solid about % vs number
flat ocean
so people dont think secondary stat trinkets are perma bad
there may be some good ones
just unlikely
balmy condor
well yeah
grizzled jay
do any trinkets give flat %?
balmy condor
no
grizzled jay
didn't think so lol
flat ocean
Some have in the past I think?
balmy condor
there might be some janky ass trinket from like wrath
flat ocean
Not positive
balmy condor
yeah
atm anyway
it looks like damage trinkets are poppin
agi trinkets are pretty good
grizzled jay
imagine they re-make Rune of Reorigination after adding DR caps on secondaires
balmy condor
and secondary stat trinkets are kinda painschamp
grizzled jay
flat ocean
Honestly hope this is the expansion we get soul capacitor 2.0
grizzled jay
DBW 2.0
'Your attacks have a chance to evoke one of the four Shadowland Covenants'
Necro = Crit
Night Fae = Mastery
Revendreth = Versatility
Bastion = Haste
flat ocean
would be cool too see if its not complete trash with secondary changes
balmy condor
tbh I have no clue why blizzard even decided on it
not the channel to rant about it, but its just blizzard fixes problems that don't exist
flat ocean
I'd consider it on topic because it affects sin too
balmy condor
secondaries are only crazy because they decided to double our stats
in a single patch
flat ocean
Like its a shit change and no one wants it
grizzled jay
if i had to guess it's so they can create insane trinkets and not worry about scaling getting out of control
grizzled jay
like a trinket could give you 10000 haste and all it does it make you hit haste cap
balmy condor
would still be insane at 400 haste though
flat ocean
same kinda thing with aoe target cap
balmy condor
so whats the fucking point
flat ocean
Why not just lower the soft cap to like 5-10
grizzled jay
is the secondary cap on beta yet or is it still ptr only?
flat ocean
Soft cap is when your abilities stop dealing 100% of damage and starts splitting because of to many targets
balmy condor
target caps weren't an issue either
you saw giga pulls in m+ from experienced groups who knew how to control pulls
the more chill players never pulled more than 8 at a time anyway
and in high keys, pulling off a pull like that is risky and rewarding
I feel like that's the gameplay they would want to create
but apparently not
flat ocean
Yeah i dno what the change is really supposed to do
Like is it just so range can be more relevant in M+?
flat ocean
Even though they've always had more spots in raid since forever?
They're just better at both now?
balmy condor
the change doesn't even change that
balmy condor
aff locks in legion weren't busted in m+ because of target caps for example
destro locks right now are still pumping
hunters are meta
every high key needs a fire mage
flat ocean
I guess it's just the GCD change all over again
Makes no sense to anyone and feels awful but Blizzard will insist it's a great idea
balmy condor
its trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist
they think that giga pulls are unhealthy for the game
so this is their solution
they think secondary stats are too strong, so they add a progressive tax on it
and it'll backfire, and we'll all say "told you so"
and the cycle will repeat
idk if they're cocky or what
but it sure seems like it
flat ocean
It really does
balmy condor
they act like only they have the solutions and the improvements the game needs, fly against the player base, and then are slow to react when it hits the fan
flat ocean
It's all so bizzare
Like you'd think they would care about the semi-dwindling player base
balmy condor
saw it with legion legendary acquisition, then you saw it with artifact power being tied to each spec, then tier set removal, with azerite armor, with pvp stats/templates, you saw it with essences, gcd changes, secondary changes, target caps
flat ocean
Holy shit I forgot about how painful it was having AP on a spec by spec basis
Jesus fucking christ was that painful
balmy condor
it's almost infuriating to watch them jump off a bridge over and over again
flat ocean
It is man
Esp since we all just love this game and want it to be fun
And blizz is like nah fuck fun man here have this way less fun version of what you were doing
balmy condor
sin is actually probably better off with secondary stats than a lot of other specs
because our secondaries are all kind of okay
imagine if crit and vers were just dead stats
you'd be forced to stack haste/mast cause of your class
and the game would be telling you to stop
flat ocean
I feel like that's rogue in general though
Most secondary stats are decent for all our specs
balmy condor
haste is kinda yucky for sub
flat ocean
But yeah it will suck for those that aren't like that
Haste will gain a little more value later on for sub
Or if legion/bfa are anything to go off it should
astral sundial
in bfa haste started as good for sub and then became bad again
single target I mean
because early on you were resource starved and then you didn't need it anymore
balmy condor
yup
flat ocean
True
I thought after you moved to DS over vigor that haste would have a little more value like in legion but I haven't touched it since uldir in BFA
astral sundial
no one touched sub after uldir 
flat ocean
lmao
balmy condor
sub also always uses DS
flat ocean
I swear it was vigor in uldir but I can't remember too well
astral sundial
at the start you only used DS in m+
flat ocean
DS on zul vigor for the rest
astral sundial
ye and zul
balmy condor
idk
if you look up logs for sub in uldir
its overwhelmingly everything except vigor
balmy condor
taloc is 61% mfd 38% ds
mother is 91% ds 9% mfd
fetid id 52% mfd 47% ds
these are 8.0 logs
you took shadow focus
astral sundial
goes against my memeory but I guess I can't argue with that
balmy condor
same color as vigor
but I'm hard pressed to find a single log on any fight that used vigor atm
oh nvm
there's a single sub log on mythic ghuun that used vigor
anyways
vital haven
flat ocean
lmao
no lie
I picked blue cause I like the colour more
But mained sin since legion cause everything else sucked
I just play fotm
flat ocean
lmao
low girder
Whispyr hates me confirmed
fleet whale
i still think the sub color should be darker
purple would fit it best but that's already taken
sick scarab
so guys are you goignt to stikc to assa of switch to sub ?
shut garnet
depends what the dmg diff will be
frigid kestrel
I will more then likely stay Sin and dabble in Sub when I’m bored
I typically don’t chase the damage
sick scarab
i will stick to sin i think
i have faith 😛
and i will go night fae also i think ..i trust in sepsis!!
😛
subtle drift
😋
astral sundial
you forgot to @ again
tardy mantle
I'm learning sub now and we will see what happens with dmg numbers.
lost summit
Does exsanguinate work with gushing wounds?
outer estuary
I wonder, how big is the dmg diff between bone spike and sepsis?
quick obsidian
I assume that's ST, how is cleave (2-3)?
vestal wren
probably mroe in favour of bone spike
night fae needs a legendary item to be relevant
crimson palm
@balmy condor https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vXipoogKH6iy7M8s9aA5v1 find 800 dps
outer estuary
wonder if theyre gonna buff the other covenant abilities
or if they are just gonna kick bonespikes teeth in
tawny flicker
Holy shit slaugther poison needs a buff xD
halcyon roost
That sim is without the slaughter conduit though, which would bump it up a bit
surreal solar
slaughter conduit got jabbed tho
halcyon roost
Nah, was just a wording change
The end result is the same
Previous was chance increased by 100%, the new one is chance increased from 12 to 24%
Which is still 100% extra
surreal solar
i mean, yeah its 100% more from 12% to 24% but the way i read it was it will always crit before to now, 12-24% crit
was probs reading wrong tho
subtle drift
@crimson palm sim 3 minutes instead of 5. Problem solved.
crimson palm
vapid scarab
is there a macro that will cast ambush if usable with blindside, else mutilate?
vast forum
@crimson palm galecaller clf not simming better?
vast forum
actually, clf is simming best for you but it's 21 dps 😄
crimson palm
error margin >.>
crimson palm
ye it's around 300 dps
i need to do the shenanigans with the fkin gale
but really CBAAAAA
vast forum
ah that's the issue 😛
i wish i could motivate myself to do 10 visions so i can actually do pvp fully socketed 😦
vast forum
i grinded 3 gearsets for rogue + full masterful for mage
balmy condor
@lost summit no, GW can’t be exsang’d
@crimson palm sorry im retired
@surreal solar slaughter conduit was a wording change. It used to be for example 12% crit, and the effect was increased by 100%, to 24%, now it explicitly states the 24%
surreal solar
aight, so i was reading it wrong, shank you
grizzled jay
i'd totally shank Whispyr
grizzled jay
I wonder if Assassination will get a R3 of Shiv that increases its damage by like... 1000% lmao
grizzled jay
the Conduit?
balmy condor
grizzled jay
It only increases the damage by 100% which makes it go from 20% AP to 40% AP. it's actually a nerf from the raw +100 dam the old version gave us
balmy condor
Just call it a rank 3
grizzled jay
i guess the idea is it will 'scale' now, but like idk if it can scale high enough lmao
balmy condor
:D
celest mountain
full haste gear going to be viable at all for prepatch?
i assume exsang will be dropped for TB without expeds
versed mica
Toxic blade won't exist in prepatch
It's getting baked into shiv, and you won't get the TB part of it till shadowlands leveling
balmy condor
Exsang still good if you’re geared to the tits
celest mountain
errr right forgot new talents are coming prepatch
also are you the @versed mica in modern?
tired cipher
do y'all find AMR or raidbots more accurate? I'm seeing AMR recommend one set of gear and say it's like a 2% upgrade, but when I sim it in raidbots, it says it's a 10% downgrade
tired cipher
kinda what i thought
it's so much easier to use but I have no idea how it actually makes the calculations
I don't suppose there's a direct equivalent of best in bags for raidbots?
balmy condor
top gear and brain power
versed mica
Wym
balmy condor
the brain power part is the important part
tired cipher
I mean that'll be a lot easier once corruption is gone lol
inner latch
does anyone know if the assassination talents for more poison damage affect Sepsis, or Niya's Tools: Poison? I assume the Toxic Blade works on them since theyre nature damage. but i wondered about the talent. does that only affect the lethal poisons you can put on your daggers?
minor pendant
Did they announce when the pre patch is coming?
balmy condor
@inner latch its modified by shiv, because nature damage, but it's not considered a rogue poison, so master poisoner doesn't work
master assassin works with it
as does elaborate planning and vendetta
inner latch
Which is master assassin, the mastery?
balmy condor
@minor pendant no they haven't, best guess is 2 weeks
inner latch
and oh yeah, Shiv* not toxic blade, good call
balmy condor
master assassin is the talent on the right in the second row, as well as the legendary obviously
inner latch
master assassin is the crit one
balmy condor
yes
inner latch
What do you think about the Mastery, does that increase the damage of sepsis/niya's?
looks like it doesnt on wowhead
grizzled jay
Mastery does not but Shiv does.
balmy condor
yeah mastery doesn't increase it
shiv does
crit effects do
master poisoner does not
etc etc
grizzled jay
it might get whitelisted later, who knows
Mythic Nathria daggers are Crit/Mast or Haste/Vers 😩
fleet whale
meh, we don't have any terrible secondary stat and stat budgets on weapons are usually low anyway
mystic osprey
How long does a mob need to live to make it worth rupturing (with haste build)?
surreal solar
thought it was 4seconds? @balmy condor
balmy condor
something like that
I was thinking about an answer
but honestly it depends on your haste as well
surreal solar
i just remember someone saying the dmg from a full envenom loses to rupture after X seconds
mystic osprey
I think I rupture shit too often when it’s going to die soon.
balmy condor
yeah I mean you can do the math
but from experience, a 3cp rupture is usually better
limber lion
You do get energy back from it as well, so there's that
limber lion
Yup
balmy condor
if you don't need the energy regen, just hit is with a 3cp rupture or something
5 seconds, 4 seconds
probably fine
mystic osprey
Probably why when I look at logs my ruptures are typically lower damage then better logs and I’m behind on Envenom damage.
grizzled jay
nice bis
fleet whale
Honestly that's actually one thing that deters me from beta
getting really good gear in beta, that you may not get in live lol
strange python
totally fine with it
void pecan
What's it like to even get beta 
topaz axle
What's stat prio looking like so far?
balmy condor
haste > stuff
topaz axle
With scoundrel?
balmy condor
still haste > stuff
low girder
haste gud
balmy condor
haste gud
balmy condor
covenants and legendaries and conduits will stop you from that
no worries there
stats are fine :)
topaz axle
Covenants look same same across the board and soulbinds are based on spec
balmy condor
ye just wait till tuning
balmy condor
if they tune venthyr higher, good chance sub wins, outlaw still goes necro, sin plays night fae etc etc
they're all pretty close
we're expecting a nerf to bone spike
and then it gets hairy
topaz axle
Then we're all sepsis MA slaves
topaz axle
Kyrian needs a reweork ASAP. Can't let pelagos go to waste
low girder
!sl
prisma monolithBOT
Shadowlands release: 35 days 20 hours 54 minutes 52 seconds
low girder
don't think there's gonna be a rework with that timer
they'll slap a dmg boost on it and call it a day
topaz axle
No, probably not. But it'll be a 9.1+ thing
fallow otter
Then we're all sepsis MA slaves
@topaz axle yep maybe then switch to venth once we level up conduit
Which sounds boring af to me
Im over the vanish for dps shit
Just in terms of gameplay, I know fae mixes it up a bit ofc but still
surreal solar
I ain't boutta be a fairy slave
Venthyr (even tho i hate parties) or Bonespike till i die
fallow otter
Sadly I'm a slave to the best raid dps
surreal solar
I'll just reroll class if my guild wants that, aint bout'ta hate playing if i have to play a way i dont like... MA gimmicks aren't fun for me
main warren
I like it when someone asks me to play something else. Is that weird
royal lantern
jokes on you, kinkshaming is my kink
balmy condor
royal lantern
slow tulip
from what i've seen in drjay's steam sub excels in m+ by a mile
balmy condor
correct
slow tulip
but i'll prio the raid so that's what i've been wondering
since sub feels 1 nerf away from being 2nd best in raids
assa always feels so nerf resistant
balmy condor
we won't know for sure until after the heroic week
balmy condor
any time frendo
lunar wave
Ughhhh I’m not a fan of sub play style at all but I’m also not a fan of MA play style D:
I like having banish as a defensive CD
Fuckin blizzard
fallow otter
I like having banish as a defensive CD
@lunar wave warlock time?
balmy condor
vanish wouldn't ever be used in raids then
cause its an open world defensive, and a dungeon utility spell
but its worthless in raids aside from the damage
vestal wren
assassination is the spec that has the highest dps dependency on vanish
vestal wren
play outlaw 
vestal wren
but outlaw does not rely on the use of vanish for dps
winter moss
hol up
outlaw did depend on vanish aswell
at the start to the xpac you vanished on cd for the 1 extra cp + ambush dmg
balmy condor
that's a drop in the pond
winter moss
still counts
balmy condor
meh
winter moss
pure mauve
Hello, anyone knows if conduits loot is specif or pure rng?
pure mauve
Thx! It works like relics in legion?
minor needle
It's a seperate loot drop, you can get both a conduit and a piece of loot from the boss,
But yeah, you just socket it into your soulbind and it works
balmy condor
it drops separate from normal drops, similar to how mounts would drop for example
and its a library system similar to essences
worldly iron
just because outlaw doesn't rely on vanish for dps as much as assassination does, doesn't make the ENTIRE outlaw spec more fun or preferable over assassination
"you dislike this one thing about assassination, go play outlaw where that one thing doesn't exist but also no other similarity that you do like exists"
steep obsidian
For M+ it’s kJnd of big or can be
pure mauve
Is subterfuge the BEST talent for single target??
balmy condor
currently yes
steep obsidian
the openers are prio are in the pin
pure mauve
Where can i see pins in the mobile cell?
steep obsidian
neat frost
Yeah, swipe from right edge to the left. Pins are up top in the extra tab
pulsar hazel
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
scenic thunder
Guys, the status priority for raiding/bossing its always "haste > crit = mastery > versa > agi" right? (with expedition III corrup)
Raid bots is telling me weird status weights right now, i just ignore it?Or do i need to make a custom scale to pawn?
halcyon roost
Simming top gear is usually a better choice than stat weights
Stat weights can change a lot when swapping even one piece of gear
delicate bone
yea going off stat weights can be scuffed
top gear is where you should be spending most time
balmy condor
Yep yep
Also @scenic thunder I would try and sim some talents/essences/azerite. Vigor and exsang never go together, and I have my doubts that CT actually sims higher for you as well, Iris isn’t used single target, probably better off using breath Major, not sure if you have bote or not
Something to double check
scenic thunder
Yeah, right now i dont have enough haste to remove vigor, so i'm using it just to cover the energy recover, crimson tempest just to aoe fights like vexiona, hivemind etc, but i don't use in boss or something like that because envenom hits harder, and azerite, i'm using iris for mythic+, i still dont have the blood of the enemy :c
balmy condor
Well if you don’t have enough haste to get rid of vigor, you shouldn’t run exsang either is the point
Deeper/exsang always show up together in sims
You can also change talents and stuff for raids and m+
Simming in m+ stuff and crimson tempest etc will change your stat weights and also change what pieces sim higher
scenic thunder
I mean, exsang helps with the opener, so even with low haste it helps a lot with the rotation, i'm not using toxic blade since legion so idk how it is right now, but i like exsang
Deeper Strat. i'll try to use again, whenever I try to use it gives me the feeling that I'm more "limited", i cant use 3 / 4 garrotes in the opening because i don't have enough energy and stuff, but i know that deeper its better in dps cenario
balmy condor
Wait you haven’t used Tb since legion?
This tier was the first time exsang was viable 
scenic thunder
I only played in Uldir, now I'm back in 8.3 and i'm kinda lost
balmy condor
Aha, that makes more sense
balmy condor
So without the right azerite, and at least like 30-35% haste, exsang is worse than tb
scenic thunder
Right now i'm with 41% haste with no buffs (3 expedition)
And im using 3 shrouded suffocation, as always
balmy condor
Then it might be okay
scenic thunder
3 shrouded, 3 overwhelming etc
balmy condor
But you should still not use vigor
scenic thunder
Yeah, i'll try to use deeper instead
balmy condor
You also should swap into PB for single target and bursty aoe fights
scenic thunder
But even with vigor I have a problem of not being able to use the energy at the speed that it regenerates, but i'm using 1 nothing personal too
balmy condor
Well that’s normal
scenic thunder
Using deeper that problem get worse right?
balmy condor
No that gets better
scenic thunder
Our pool gets smaller
balmy condor
That’s irrelevant
Vigor adds energy Regen
Deeper doesnt
If you had 700 maximum energy it wouldn’t really change much
You’re still either gcd capped or waiting for energy to regen
Lot of people right now running around with 70-80% haste, they can’t spend the energy fast enough even with deeper strat
And it doesn’t matter if that’s 100 maximum energy, 200, or a million
If they can’t spend it fast enough, they can’t spend it fast enough
fleet whale
buff assassination for SL
hollow ether
@scenic thunder your gear/corruption still too low for the 'meta' build right now. you might not even want SS right now with your gear, and want DD instead. unless you are planning on doing a crazy amount of grinding in the next 2 weeks, just play TB build and don't worry about stacking expedient. your stat prio will be more fluid and you'll improve your character more by simply improving ilvl/socket than anything else. it also depends on if you're going to be doing M+ or raiding...
balmy condor
Well he was mentioning iris and m+ earlier
So the SS seems fine
Undergeared and whatever
grizzled jay
SS is bis for M+ no matter what gear level atm
balmy condor
Yeah, and he’s not min-maxed for raids from the sounds of it either
So I hard disagree with the DD stuff
SS is fine
grizzled jay
3xSS, 3xEchoing
hollow ether
"it also depends on if you're going to be doing M+ or raiding.."
shut garnet
2 weeks and its all over 
ripe zinc
Guys i'm not been very into the latest news from the covenants nor trying to get a bit of info about covenants. Which one do you think is going to sim higher on M+ and Raid? Or if there are any must pick for smth
zenith plume
There's a ranking in the pins. It appears that Necrolord is the best for at least raiding and PvP. Idk about m+
balmy condor
necrolord in m+ atm as well
ripe zinc
Kay, ty 😄
quaint sequoia
sucks that dashing recipe is from raid
grizzled jay
just kill it on normal when it drops
jolly spoke
heady pollen
It's in the pins, but yeah necro atm
shrewd night
Heavy emphasis on
"at the moment"
Rogue has not been through any tuning pass yet.
balmy condor
^^^
strange lichen
does anybody run 40 corruption during m+ or raids? or should i still stay below it?
balmy condor
most people run sub 60
strange lichen
thanks
obtuse acorn
is Vulpera bis?
obtuse acorn
Wait, so I need to race change??
balmy condor
not sure if you're trolling me or not
races matter very little to overall performance
if you want to play a vulpera, play a vulpera
sudden mauve
hey guys really dumb question but i'm a new rogue in a dungeon so i can't look
but if we're playing without deeper strat do we mutilate on 3 points?
balmy condor
yes
balmy condor
envenom on 4
sudden mauve
perfect, thank you
obtuse acorn
@balmy condor the little rats are pretty cute aren't they?
balmy condor
opaque tree
I have a question about the Dashing Scoundrel legendary if anyone has seen this in action. Do the crits also generate energy outside of the envenom window?
balmy condor
yes
opaque tree
Thanks 🙂
balmy condor
opaque tree
I see that blindside is the strongest on ST as of now. Do you know how close behind either Master Poisoner are or Elaborate on ST? Kind of curious...
balmy condor
with or without conduits, what covenant
balmy condor
well the pins are wide ranging and followed a lot of different sims
opaque tree
ahh okay
balmy condor
bonespike with best conduits I can do
opaque tree
I guess with Dashing Scoundrel Legendary and Lethal Poisons Conduit, I thought Master Poisoner would be closer Blindside than Elaborate for ST, but I don't know
grizzled jay
The strength of Blindside isn't strictly the damage
It's the fact that it costs 0 Energy.
balmy condor
this is the standard PR profile at 183 ilvl with dashing equipped and necro taken, 5 min patchwerk 20% variance (which is the raidbots default). MP is Master poisoner, EP is elaborate planning, BS is blindside. WPS is well-placed steel, the shiv conduit, which in the notated sims are in place of the bone spike conduit, SF. The number notates the rank of lethal/maim/x, where x is either WPS or SF. Margin is about 15dps. So you can see that without any lethal, BS clearly wins, and even EP is better. As you gain levels on the conduits, WPS, as well as MP start to scale harder. At rank 15's, MP and BS are within margin of error of each other, both with SF, as well as WPS.
grizzled jay
the chance of actually using WPS would be surprising. I feel like Plaguey's Preemptive Strike is stronger than WPS, at least early.
or does everyone sim with the crit from Heirmir
well that would still be 2 potency anyways
and surely Lethal Poisons and Main, Mangle are better than WPS
grizzled jay
well "WPS conduits" with bonespike would mean 3 potency, which means not taking the crit on Heirmir, no?
so does WPS sim higher than the crit from Heirmir?
oh 15 is rank. so rank 15 WPS is simming higher than the crit from Heirmir 🤔 that still seems sus
balmy condor
I didn't factor soulbind paths into the sims
grizzled jay
oh
balmy condor
that sim would be a cvs receipt long
grizzled jay
well you don't need to factor in soulbind path. it'd literally just be WPS vs. Marrowed Gemstone
balmy condor
ye I didn't look into it
grizzled jay
np
vestal wren
so, whats your conclusion whispyr?
grizzled jay
im 99% Marileth would sim higher than Heirmir but you would need a dead humanoid + beast every single encounter which isn't feasible
so Heirmir will be the best raid Soulbind
unless you can cheese some CC mechanic with Marileth
balmy condor
no real conclusion, just showing the difference between MP/BS in single target. MP could be a viable alternative with higher conduit ranks as it stands atm. BS seems like the general all around and early prog "feels good" pick, but I personally am curious about how MP would scale with more haste/mastery as heroic and mythic raid gear becomes the raid gear compared to the PR profile
MP could also be a fine alternative for smooth brain no need to press the flashy button
grizzled jay
MP would be better in AoE anyways
balmy condor
sure, but in aoe EP would take over for the cleave
I assume @vestal wren did that research for the pins, so I won't bother
grizzled jay
can you DM me the Necro opener
balmy condor
sure
grizzled jay
i think i got it, but i could also be scuffing it
vestal wren
i did some basic simulations
balmy condor
vestal wren
i could def. have missed some things
red pagoda
Does MP increase the effectiveness of numbing poison?
balmy condor
yes
grizzled jay
oh is it not using Subt?
balmy condor
it is
grizzled jay
hm
balmy condor
that's why it garrotes directly out of stealth
vestal wren
ah, thats how the bone spike condition plays out, haven't looked at the sample sequence ^^
balmy condor
I'll repost all this stuff in #tc-research as well later
before it gets buried deep in the bowels of the spec channel
grizzled jay
shame Main, Mangle needs Garrote, kinda kills MA tbh
i guess you can ambush snd ambush with MA
fallow otter
Have you tried popping vend a bit later?
low girder
snd after the shiv, oof. prolly no better way though
grizzled jay
well the apl is unoptimized
grizzled jay
also heavily dependent on what ranks we can get on conduits i assume too
balmy condor
and probably koji/mystler
vestal wren
well the apl is unoptimized
most things did stay the same as in bfa, so i would not say its unoptimized
balmy condor
yeah
it's "optimized" in the way that all the normal rules still apply
the unoptimized part is that it might not be perfectly tuned to account for bone spike and snd
grizzled jay
with vendetta off the GCD i wonder if its better to vendetta with the SBS and not the shiv
balmy condor
generally speaking I'd say it's pretty solid though
obviously we might be missing stuff
vestal wren
i did also add ct from stealth for NS combinations because seli did say it could be a win
balmy condor
yeah I saw that
grizzled jay
it means that mutilate after ambush (on first vanish) gets ven instead of shiv
grizzled jay
that seems worth IMO
vestal wren
(well he did rather say the sim is bad because it does not do it, the win was rather minor)
balmy condor
can't say that for sure
I think its likely
but remember that we're also getting tier sets in following tiers
that will shake up things a bit
low girder
(maybe)
vestal wren
i haven't looked into combinations that could make MP better
balmy condor
well there aren't that many
night fae could be a possibility
I'm thinking about setting up a giga sim with different covenants and letting it just rip overnight
vestal wren
i am happy that MfD works well for m+ on sin/outlaw
