yea, and my tank doesn't like to let me stealth
#assassination
desert orchid
desert orchid
that tanks love to run out of too
desert orchid
they do anything in beta to help it out yet?
rancid bobcat
so wait what do you do if your opener mutilate puts you at 6 cp
do you just rupture and exsang and skip CT?
or do you still try to fit in CT before exsang
dusky oxide
CT = Crimson Tempest?
cobalt pelican
rupture exsang ct after
rancid bobcat
hmmst
fleet anchor
Correct
arctic walrus
@fleet anchor have you looked into using plumage/medallion earlier in the opener to get just a little bit of benefit on your opener garrote ticks, rather than pairing with vendetta a few seconds in
prime void
@drifting cosmos 60% base crit is really high
arctic acorn
So, how does the exsang build handles aoe ? I've been trying it, and yeah ST is bonkers but on AOE i'm being miserable
echo palm
Hello you fine gents. Does anyone have any tips for how to negate the blob slow on mythic Shad'har the Insatiable? Cloak and sprint are doing nothing.
vast forum
unless you have a prio target, you don't use exsg/tb in aoe
dusky oxide
make friends with a paladin
echo palm
That's the only solution I've heard so far RoguenJosh lol. Thanks though
arctic acorn
I mean the build in general, cause I don't run any EB for example
vast forum
still
arctic acorn
Past 3 targets I just fee like I'm fcked
prime void
It’s not about the talent
He’s stacking haste
Haste is devalued the more targets you add
It’s going to feel blah
drifting cloud
oh yeah well dont play 70% haste in most of the dungeons
prime void
It’s an st build
vast forum
i mean, if you wanna do aoe, run EB 
drifting cloud
its only good in what like 3 of them
drifting cloud
yoppa would know better I just do my weekly key then im outta there
minor thicket
So what happens if we’re unable to get the 480 raden helm
drifting cloud
I did do 100k in kr16 yesterday without even playing ct tho
prime void
You don’t use it?
drifting cloud
so pretty decent
prime void
Because you don’t have it
arctic acorn
Tried it out on a mm reclean, it was really good on the expected fights yeah
But I don't feel like changing all my azerite + essences
On every fight
vast forum
which fight do you not like using exsang on?
cobalt pelican
i see no reason it won't be very very good at low target cleave
like even in raid on single target it's not about having energy for mutilates anymore
mutilate is like 5% of your dam
it's literally just bleed damage
arctic acorn
Vex, Hive is where is was feeling subpar
vast forum
if you were hoping to compete with hunters or mages i have bad news for you
cobalt pelican
i'm actually pretty convinced
for all the dungeons i choose to go sin for (which granted are low target count to begin with)
my raid build is optimal
vast forum
i always run raid build in KR/ToS/workshop
cobalt pelican
incl 80% haste?
arctic acorn
Can't really compete on a comboost I wasn't expecting anything on that level, but it's just by the time i'm done stacking 3-4 garrote, well nothing's here anymore
glacial steppe
i hate playin sin
somehow tanks keep chaining
and im like "dude pls no, vanish is still on cd"
vast forum
i don't pug
glacial steppe
i only pug
vast forum
and all my tanks know i'll fuckin whine for 5 min if they chain like morons
sometimes, chaining is ok
but like
1 mob remaining in a pack at 20% and they go and pull more instead of waiting 3 sec and having like infinitely more damage
is just triggering
glacial steppe
if i ask to stop weird chaining
they usually be like "can you stop playing bad specs"
broken oriole
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/54KWEkL3EHZq2A7ZGW4YnS Should I roll for head, shoulders, or chest with residuum? I have a 465 Gorak Tul's and a 475 Fleshbeast as well
drifting cosmos
think you can get away with 2 in most cases
minor thicket
hey guys question - i am slowly moving to the Exsan build. If for some reason i cannot ge tthe Raden helm is it ok to use the 465 raden helm? If not what TR Helm will work?
drifting cosmos
should really just sim but i think 465 would work too
sweet rampart
how do you guys usually start on nzoth? adds die super fast for dots lol, are we just dumpster till we open on actual nzoth?
opal minnow
you can blow cds and have them for psychus or nzoth burn
sweet rampart
right at the very start?
opal minnow
yes on the basher/corrupter
sweet rampart
heroic btw
sweet rampart
vanish right off the bat since it pulls you out of stealth?
opal minnow
i just hold till burn tbh
besides you'd want to wait for a damage amp before you vanish anyways
heady aspen
What is considered the best way to farm Echoes?
rancid bobcat
rated arenas
fallen bone
Hello you fine gents. Does anyone have any tips for how to negate the blob slow on mythic Shad'har the Insatiable? Cloak and sprint are doing nothing.
@echo palm looking over old stuff, use a mouseover SS to a ranged player on the outside of the circle.
echo palm
@fallen bone If Possible I try, unfortunately it's usually when there is no ranged anywhere near our drop point. Ended up getting the pally to make a target macro when i call. Thanks
fallen bone
Np
arctic walrus
you either step or get a freedom/tigers lust
rancid bobcat
as much as you can
manic pebble
alright, thanks for the answer!
verbal sparrow
I'm currently at 46%-48% (depends which ring i'm wearing) and still I would need more
verbal sparrow
Do you have vita and plumage (or that versa useable trinket from pvp) ?
manic pebble
nope
arctic walrus
just go with top gear and your stats flow naturally
manic pebble
just killed Raden and he didn't drop it
verbal sparrow
you're going for SS Exsang build right ?
strange python
But where do I find top gear? @arctic walrus
manic pebble
you can call me dumb but what's that build? @verbal sparrow haha
sweet rampart
eventually exsang will overtake TB with enough haste
delicate bone
Even then it’s only like a 1-2% increase so don’t freak out about switching talents just yet if you like TB
verbal sparrow
I like exsang because with some haste + blood of the enemy that burst is quite insane
manic pebble
do you get energy back ultra fast when you hit the target with exsanguinate?
verbal sparrow
well... you usually have ventetta on while bursting but yea
tbh I never had any problems with energy any pull
sweet rampart
i cap when i have vendetta + exsang and i go to use Blood of the enemy
verbal sparrow
there is a guide in pinned messages for exact rotation
it quite helped me to find out alternative items when I can't kill raden on myth
arctic walrus
The build excels when you're already at a really high level of haste, so those problems wouldn't be problems
orchid solstice
Exaguinate is a 45s cd lining up with blood and also lining up with other 1:30 trinkets
But our vendetta and vanish is 2:00 - do we run VoP minor to reduce vend to 1:30 and line up with every other exsanguinate or do we ever hold exsan to line up with vendetta like we do with blood in TB build
arctic walrus
You hold vanish and vend for exsang
after that those 2 cds will always be lined up, use exsang on cd
blood goes with vend
fallow otter
@fallen bone If Possible I try, unfortunately it's usually when there is no ranged anywhere near our drop point. Ended up getting the pally to make a target macro when i call. Thanks
@echo palm we put a warlock pet to sstep to
white tide
hey guys, i have a question, i searched the logs yesterday and saw that most of the tops ranks on ST fights in nyalotha are using shrouded + exsang, since when did the meta change? as far as i understand, the exsang build needs as much haste as you can get, is this right? I tried to stack haste, but currently at ca. 2500 haste points, should i stick to double dose, vigor and toxic blade? what do you think?
arctic walrus
The bleed build got better with higher haste yes, usually this was exclusive to people with extreme luck but now with the vendor it's a bit more widespread
The build will end up simming better for you if you have the required haste, usually you'll need a few expedients though, and the correct azerite pieces
white tide
is there a minimum haste amount?
arctic walrus
no it's not really quantifiable
white tide
ok, i will experiment a little bit with sims, thank you for you answer
i think i need more expedient corruptions, i got only 1 rank3 expedient
arctic walrus
yes you'll need more
sonic iris
is it alright to use envenom and rupture on any number of cp?
arctic walrus
no you always try and finish at 4/5
sonic iris
alright and should you always try to enter toxic blade after pressing envenom
arctic walrus
otherway around
tb then envenom
it's okay to cap cp when using tb, so you'll always have an envenom ready for it
sonic iris
alright so during tb still try for 4/5 envenoms or 3 cp ok?
sonic iris
oh i mean while tb buff is up, is it ok to 3cp envenom
arctic walrus
then no, still finish the same
sonic iris
righto
waxen socket
Hey guys
I've been looking at the exsang expedient build and was wondering if anyone who already plays it has some stream footage from the raid
Right now i only got 1 expedient piece so its not worth it yet but im farming echoes to instantly buy 5-6 pieces when it comes on the vendor again
arctic walrus
probably raz or saryero
waxen socket
Alright gonna look them up on twitch if i can find them
drifting cloud
Raz streamed raid yest think he has vods
arctic walrus
raztvx
waxen socket
Ah
Ye right now myc orruptions are so fucked that i play rank 5 expedient and rank 5 void ritual
Since it sims higher for me then rank 5 mind flay
can't wait to try out something new
hollow cloak
@arctic walrus how much haste u have?
hollow cloak
@arctic walrus soon 73% pog
arctic walrus
damn you're a gamer
waxen socket
next expedient 3 is 2/2.5 weeks?
hollow cloak
@arctic walrus haha, my wow motivation is low atm.. just loggin raid and sometimes i just afk at orgrimmar
arctic walrus
think everyone is like that
hollow cloak
@waxen socket i guess yea
glacial jasper
Running DD one should still go after expedient?
arctic walrus
yes expedient is best regardless what st build you go for
prime void
yeah exsang is big effort
strange python
Yo, can everyone Check my Logs? I do not know what I'm doing wrong with the Haste Build. https://de.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wCk3qpDbvLYcAKhN
1-10 Bosses
arctic walrus
You overwrite your empowered garrotes a lot on the opener
you should exsang before you blood
save vanish for vendetta always
fallow estuary
Is stacking severe / striketroughs a viable singletarget option or complete garbage for everything but M+?
arctic walrus
83
shell atlas
another noob question: i currently have mind flay 7, it sims 270dps higher than 7x exp 3
should i make the change to remove rn jesus damage?
pseudo finch
Hi guys, kind of come back to the game around a month or so ago and find my self behind, the only content i mainly do is M+.
Atm i don't have great azerite pieces, and the ones i have are only 465. I am not sure which i should run and how to sim for an optimal answer.
I have -
3 x Shroud / Echo @ 465
1 x Shroud / HoD @ 475 (Chest)
1 x Shroud /TTK @ 480 (Shoulders)
I am note sure if i should run double shroud /echo and whether to use the chest or the shoulders.
Ingame unbuffed i have - 55% crit, 20% Haste, 33% Mastery and 6% vers
keen dome
@shell atlas it's up to you, but you may want to look at your gems/enchants/talents. Tentacles procs are not influenced by haste so it favors crit and may sim higher for your specific gear.
@strange python : sim yourself, but BBI is generally favored
shell atlas
almoast every gem is vers, it's what sims higher
but i want to know if its worth to change to full exp3 to do more consistent dps without rellying on mind flay procs
arctic walrus
dont sim light movement
I would go for expedients if tendies are that close
it's completely down to rng, so even a slightly less than average pull on tendie is gonna be worse than if you ran with expedients
you can also look into the ss/exsang build if you have that many expedients
shell atlas
i dont have them
but i have the echoes to buy them, just waiting
i have looked to the build, but i think i will do better with dd tb since im used to it
mystic crest
would it be worth playing 3ss exsan for keys this week?
broken goblet
I have so many questions about Sin single target. can someone pop in voice and help?
arctic walrus
have you read a guide
mystic crest
what are u struggling to understand?
faint harness
its a dot
broken goblet
why garrote rupture then garrote?
faint harness
to extend the dot
check the duration on garrote after doing 1
and then after 2nd
feral creek
Because of the talent 10% more dmg and the longerbduratiin
broken goblet
hmm
then why does it say vanish when garrote runs out, then garrote twice
I thought garrote shouldnt fall off?
faint harness
you dont refresh it
boreal maple
its cos empowered garrote
faint harness
until it has dropped
boreal maple
from subtefudge
broken goblet
oh snap
boreal maple
u let that one fall off
faint harness
this should all be said in the guide
boreal maple
be4 vanish
broken goblet
so what about a regular garrote, would you ever let that fall off?
faint harness
you can refresh "regular" garrote
when its in pandemic
but never refresh after you have used vanish or in the opener
let it drop and then instantly re-apply
cus you're losing a fuckton of dmg
broken goblet
damn. been shooting myself in the foot it sounds like lmao
broken goblet
well. I would re garrote, I would never let it fall off even after a vanish or subterfuge.
im understanding it now. ty guys
modern cedar
hey i'm gonna be trying an exsang build for the first time but i was wondering if CT is really needed as part of it?
faint harness
depends on ur CP luck in opener
modern cedar
how so?
rancid bobcat
CT sims higher than PB so
modern cedar
ya thats what i was wondering
rancid bobcat
If you want to do more damage, then yes you "need" it
Well sim it just to make sure, idk if it does more damage at all levels of haste
broken goblet
Another question. Do I spam Crimson tempest? or wait till the last 2 seconds to resfresh it
broken goblet
tyty
trim isle
is the exsang build viable w/o expedient or should i wait for the next time it pops up on the vendor to start playing it?
crimson palm
just as we get a free spell we can pad with, they change the log rules 
glacial jasper
Logs have been long pointless this tier have they not
rancid bobcat
You use it if it sims better but that usually takes a number of expedients
faint harness
ppl have to realize (in regards to the expedient-exsang question) that most of us don't force a build, rather play the one that is actually simming the best. So all the questions about "is this enough" etc will always end up with "sim it".
glacial jasper
Like I don’t bother much with building an aoe sets becuase at bear we are mediocre aoe, I focus on what I can do well and pump those boss’s “raid environment or mid level keys”
primal turret
What is the best strategy in Psycus? keep the Psycus dotted and then mutilate envenenom the synapsis or does it worth to make the synapsis bleed?
paper kelp
today is a good day
tropic ocean
@young meteor not really worth they die too fast
Keep dots on psychus and mut env synapse
dense blaze
What is Crimson Tempest pandemic time?
arctic walrus
30% of whatever u applied
spice peak
Why is sim telling me to stack vers
wet ruin
grave trail
What changed with logs
scarlet sequoia
damage is weighted differently on a couple of bosses
silver musk
scarlet sequoia
should be fixed today
carapace and nzoth logs from before the change have also been weighted and changed to be appropriate
sand whale
honed mind based on ilvl?
or just per rank lol haven't had a lot of these to play with
faint harness
ranks
sand whale
alright soooon I shall have all the bleedy goodness
now to try and convice the other rogue to play vision minor for carapace and nzoth XD
scarlet sequoia
why
sand whale
just our raid set up no other way 4 rogues, 2 of us go visions minor for those
scarlet sequoia
sounds like fun
sand whale
tho I'm thinking our dps is blasting surely things will die in time SURELY
need more fire mages so I can turn off my brain
crimson palm
they should now make another change to logs where they count only damage from class abilities
and delete these ching chong mofos with their tentacles
crimson palm
paper kelp
you know 15mil in a 4 min fight is fine
sullen pagoda
and next step remove crits
plain warren
hey guys, i'm new in the sim population. And i was wondering how can i put corruption on item i have to sim and try the exsanguinate build ^^ anyone can help ?
main forge
Can anyone have a go and see where I can improve? I hit 120 in Mid March and have been struggling with getting higher sim dps. And still just parse green or grey on warcraft logs. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/d9a1nLkQAinCyFDNLXKgYw
thin gate
guys is there any1 who can work well with simc and can help me for 1 sec?
main forge
oh derp... I do have BotD, just was doing visions which is why I ran purification derp.
thin gate
@plain warren theres a option at top gear when u scroll down, where u can pick the corruption u want and the amount u want to stack
plain warren
Ok going to try thanks
thin gate
playing 60-70% haste rn, with 3 x ss, but it says 3 x double dose 2 x dark heart and 1 x ss is better 4 me
exsang build works just well with carapace chest
tribal obsidian
So since the amp corruptions don't add thst much corruption, has anyone looked into what you would add to the current expedient BiS list if you wanted to run high corruption (90+)
quasi pewter
propably more honed mind
quasi pewter
well you would have to remove some expedient and put honed mind instead
shrewd night
With full cloak, all your pieces will be varying ranks of expedient, and yet be under 59.. Question is rather what would you replace at what expense to make that work.
quasi pewter
but where would you even run high corruption apart from shadhar and wrathion
and there you could play stars theoretically
tribal obsidian
Or just fooling around with heroic parses
hollow escarp
do you guys full clear visions or just do objectives?
I don't like clearing all as a rogue 😦
quasi pewter
i skip everything that i dont have to kill
hollow escarp
how many mementos do you lose?
quasi pewter
but all crystals/chests ofc
hollow escarp
yeah
quasi pewter
not sure
waxen socket
I almost kill everything including mail box things and get around 2500-2600 per run objective chests excluded naturally
So around 4.8/4.9k per run
quasi pewter
og or sw?
hollow escarp
I need to check on my next run
waxen socket
Thats Sw
quasi pewter
yea so like 300 more
glacial jasper
5m?
crimson palm
you lose around 500 on average per run
quasi pewter
think in sw i have 2300 or so usually
hollow escarp
ahh, 300 is not worth killing all, for me at least
waxen socket
Ye org is like 2400-2500
crimson palm
if you skip stuff in org, it's usually 1.9-2k, SW's 2.1k ish
hollow escarp
I have 80k visions 
waxen socket
Like with all the extra moments from raid etc I can buy a socket each week
hollow escarp
I need to gear an alt to farm mementos for mount
wanted to do that on main but now I want sockets
crimson palm
they'll probably buff memento drops before shadowlands
i wouldn't worry about the mount now
hollow escarp
yeah, less than 1% of playerbase has that mount
crimson palm
cuz its a fkin reskin xD
hollow escarp
is it?
weak hearth
And there is a rare drop in uldum with the same model
tribal obsidian
All 10 crystals is like 425 mementos
crystal blaze
full clean in OG is around 2500 mementos, in ST it is around 2700
glacial jasper
That at 5 mask? And chests and crystals and end reward?
white wyvern
Yes.
rancid obsidian
How often does the Rio Addon refresh?
rancid obsidian
Thx
void pecan
Haste is good. Fullstop.
prisma monolithBOT
Its very hard to make statements about stat trends in the current patch.
Please use a simulation to generate results for your personal gear situation.
fervent jasper
Jesus
twin bay
corruption happened my dude
fervent jasper
So, haste was bad for sin in AoE because bleeds give energy regen making it redundant
how does corruption change this
twin bay
u can have so much haste that it has become good even for aoe
but that does not mean crit builds are bad
patent topaz
its not even saying that in pins
fervent jasper
But thats at the expense of crit because you have to sacrifice severe for expedient right? WIthout expedient you dont want haste on your gear
right?
patent topaz
after your shrouded garrotes run out haste does nothing on aoe
tender folio
Between 14% to 20%
fervent jasper
And when are you supposed to run exang?
tender folio
Depends how you like it
fervent jasper
Is that with or without expedient?
white wyvern
On big pulls Crit + EB is still gunna be better.
On smaller pulls SS with a lot of haste can carry especially on short fight timers.
fervent jasper
I have a 23 AD in my bags rn which build would be better to run it on
and dont say outlaw
fervent jasper
ok but even with the crit build having ~15% haste is still a good thing
white wyvern
AD Tyr is a bitch. If your other DPS can handle the AOE I would go ST which would be haste.
fervent jasper
If youre not running expedient whats the BiS corruption? I have 4 Strikethrough's and 2 severe's
i can get another severe right now
white wyvern
Severe + Strikethru.
tender folio
Those two mixed together but you'll have to sim , strikethrough takes over when you have 60% crit passive
white wyvern
^
fervent jasper
When do i run exang
white wyvern
Sim.
tender folio
nop
fervent jasper
Ok so
with my severe
i have 63% crit
unbuffed
But the pins say exang is only good at high haste
thin gate
the point of exsang is to make ur ss more viable
white wyvern
It works with crit too. Run some sims do some exploration.
thin gate
bcs high haste = high gcd = many ticks of garrote
and exsang doubles it
100% haste = 0.75 ticks per second
with exsang 0.375
correct me if wrong
fervent jasper
Do you have some sims you could recommend?
One last question btw, how do y'all deal with your think from beyond without vanish and gouge
crimson palm
you let the healers deal with it
fervent jasper
i usually just gouge it and run away
white wyvern
I personally just run a bunch of scenarios that replicate M+.
tribal obsidian
Gouge as assassin?
white wyvern
I run under 40 in keys above 20ish.
@tribal obsidian obviously he means when he plays Outlaw.
tender folio
Yeah at high keys there is no point going over 39 since it can mess you up badly
fervent jasper
Big rip
i only have 30% mastery
all the gear i corrupted was crit/vers
Maybe I buy another severe and corrupt a crit/mastery ring...
What trinket should I run besides spyglss
tender folio
Dice or Vita
fervent jasper
I have 475 dice and 475 vita
fervent jasper
so whats a good sim then like 5 targets 2 minutes patchwerk?
fervent jasper
I just did 5 targets
60 seconds
it says my mechagon bike trinket is my best trinket
white wyvern
Why do you think that's the case?
white wyvern
That's not the end all be all.
You run like 10 sims with varying targets/fight lengths to replicate a dungeon environment then use your brain and some 
to digest all that.
swift timber
Is this a mistake in the simc apl?
Crimson Tempest on ST if in pandemic and it will do less damage than Envenom due to TB/MA/TtK
actions.dot+=/crimson_tempest,if=spell_targets=1&combo_points>=(cp_max_spend-1)&refreshable&!exsanguinated&!debuff.toxic_blade.up&master_assassin_remains=0&!azerite.twist_the_knife.enabled&target.time_to_die-remains>4
if I run with a custom APL with the line removed on seliathans armory it's just an increase in ST
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/aDms9NwvVZGCLFs2eo3vKd
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2Vmyei6nZkwyCLgNJXMktk
vestal wren
thats weird, i remember seli using it on st
ct on st is dependent on your gear, so could be some conflict there
swift timber
yeah wouldn't wanna run ct in raid 
faint harness
why are you using seli's armory tho
i dont even think CT would win for him in that gear with exsang
it was specifically stated that CT wins on ST due to haste
he runs an m+ (low haste) build
swift timber
first armory that came to mind with proper gear tbh
faint harness
in ur sims
fathom swift
why even use ct over pb if its not even an increase to use it when talented with your gear
or if its the dudes m+ set why sim some random guys aoe gear
faint harness
i mean, look at his gear, 27 corruption, strikethroughs, vop minor, triple SS/EB azerites
"is the APL wrong?"
no your sim is ridiculous
faint harness
CT is not even a win on ST with low haste
what part of that
is hard to understand
ur simming all these random ppl with low haste builds
fathom swift
like these sims have 16% haste ofc its not a gain
arctic venture
Hello guys.
arctic venture
Guys I have 2 dagger Shards of the Back Empire (with Twisted Appendage), it worth change one of these corruption for Stars level 3?
faint harness
wouldnt spend 15 000 echoes on stars 3
faint harness
yea well i wouldnt do that in the first place so its hard to answer your question
i would not buy the stars 3
arctic venture
Why not?
faint harness
because its very niche
white wyvern
^ and if you do buy it don't put on a piece you will for all content.
mellow pier
fathom swift
could spend 15k on a rank 3 stars or could buy 3 rank 3 expedient when it comes up next
faint harness
at best good for 2.5 bosses in the raid and even for those its worth is going to be less and less with the fights becoming shorter
glacial steppe
blood/vision/lucid/breath still the to go m+ essences or did something change? see a lot of sins not playing vision at all in m+
fathom swift
if you want corruptions for raid content save for next time expedient 3s up instead of spending now
faint harness
We dont know what content you do and how much it matters
arctic venture
Im much more raiding.
faint harness
Yea but what difficulty
arctic venture
Mythic.
fathom swift
you can pretty much just stack expedient
cobalt pelican
idk if there could be a haste check added to the ct st thing, not sure if that's even a supported thing in simc
but yeah it was just added blanket cause in almost every high gear set that's not intentionally <10% haste it's equal to pb
fathom swift
I think it's reasonable to assume anybody trying to sim ct in st situations has it sim above pb
raven mica
Wait sin’s haste is getting so clowny that y’all are taking CT in ST
shrewd night
@arctic venture You can start by working on better rings and better azerite
glacial steppe
arctic venture
@shrewd night well rings I can do it, now azerites i´m limited to the 480s I have
raven mica
What the fuck
arctic venture
Well i do have some good ones 465 but simc tells me is a loss in dps.
shrewd night
Theyll be a loss for now, but some of those azerites are pretty 
glacial steppe
well, hes actually fine if he gets maut head on mythic
until he reaches vexiona etc
scarlet sequoia
is that bis for assa m+?
raven mica
3x SS 3x EB
shrewd night
Man, Id run my sim to see if CT is big huge. But didnt save my /simc after applying some corruptions to gear 
raven mica
Yea
glacial steppe
idk what corruptions to fill with as sin in m+
tdev feels weird because we lack haste big time
odd belfry
why crismson tempest sims more in single target?
raven mica
Only with absurd expedient
vast forum
@glacial steppe strikethrough and severe
faint harness
I do wonder where the breakpoint for CT ST is
glacial steppe
@vast forum nothing else? I only have 2x sev/st so far, and lots of budget to fill
faint harness
i have 86% rn i think
raven mica
OF
faint harness
40% is not absurd
vast forum
@glacial steppe generally try to stack those 2
faint harness
råz has absurd expedient
fathom swift
@arctic venture didn't check most of ur gear but this is a 2k increase just to use different enchant, essence and cleanse bracers
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cuUJX6R8cBrrguW3z4wV8e
shrewd night
Its not a gain for me at 40%, but lemme get home and check what gain it is at 56
glacial steppe
im at 67% i think
devout mirage
the plumage is very important?
fathom swift
not especially
faint harness
disgusting
vestal wren
wasn't it even higher without blood major?
raven mica
There’s No way CLF doesn’t sim higher in that setup
scarlet sequoia
its 112k with clf
faint harness
does CLF beat bote on 3 min fights too?
glacial steppe
and then you have hunter simming 115k with sub 40c
faint harness
hunters play a different game
raven mica
Yea no that class is just dumb
glacial steppe
nah, actually its mages tghat play a different game. they are so overpowered that they are bad for everything thats not a 28+ key
faint harness
sub is gonna be the king of torghast
fyi
look at all these shadowstep interactions
sub has 2
what you say now sin
raven mica
Dude bm hunter was keeping up with me in M+ when the character is like 3 weeks old
He had full 465 azerite
I was like WHAT THE FUCK
vestal wren
well the shadowstep power is a epic one so you need to be lucky to get it
pine badger
What’s the shadowstep power?
vestal wren
also i think the tower still has the first floors as the hardest ones
devout mirage
do you have one better trinket wich plumage or pvp ?
vestal wren
faint harness
its more than just that one
theres one that gives evasion, cloak and vial on step
as well
raven mica
Next finisher.....
vestal wren
well this one too
raven mica
Get hachadino in here
vestal wren
whos that
faint harness
any 400% + 50% shadow dmg double dippers
vestal wren
well he will def. have tons of fun in thorgast
arctic venture
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6X1JMqJS8sBjN5tUtG5JAA
@scarlet sequoia But here u using a bleeding gear
scarlet sequoia
a bleeding gear yes
arctic venture
I need to tell I´dont know how to play with a bleed gear
hahaha never learn that good.
devout mirage
hey haz, I havent versa trinket, wich better?
cobalt pelican
lmao
oblique smelt
Was just doing some simming, and while looking through the rotation the sim used i stumbled upon this
Why does it Garrote > Muti > Garrote
Wouldn't that Mutilate just completely waste CP's
or is there actually some reason for it
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2uMkXCGvoYrRGHmwSQLWaE There's the sim if anyone is interested
timber furnace
Whats the perfect opener? in st fight
strange python
It depends on ur talents and traits just check the guide on ravenholdt
It covers everything
oblique smelt
Depends on what gear you're playing, but there is a guide for all different setups and a more specific one for Exsang in pins
delicate bone
ST is good for outlaw, you want expedient for sin though
timber furnace
so i better play outlaw with my strikehtoruhgs then assa ?
strange python
Depends on how much u sim withboth and what ur raid group needs
hoary apex
for what? in M+ strikethrough stacking is one of if not the best sin corruption
wispy mesa
every1 says I need to sim my gear for assa... but I have sooooo much gear in the bank that I cant sim
does some1 have raidbots premium and would sim assa for me?? usually I just copy Lektrah but now I cant 😦
gleaming viper
patent topaz
thats statistics
strange python
the mean is the average
bleak dune
Can somebody explain , how Crit is still better then Haste for me ?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/7qifJhvAzoxT84QqKJxPRz
patent topaz
it does more damage
kindred temple
how much corruption are you guys running
strange python
@bleak dune i'm pretty sure appendages can crit but aren't hasted, and you only have 3 expedients
cobalt pelican
@oblique smelt it's just the only course of action, the only other alternatives are to finish at 3, not get the garrote gcd and finish at 6, or garrote garrote finisher instead all of which are kinda just meh
garrote garrote finisher loses a garrote tick (or more at current haste?)
plain warren
any tips for nzoth vision ?
pastel hatch
Hey, I've been thinking to get up to speed on my rogue for M+, playing assa. But Im kinda drawn back by the lack of echoing blades. Is it just rolling TR and getting lucky? or are there any other pieces with echoing as well?
cobalt pelican
just roll p much
pastel hatch
Yikes
bleak dune
okay , thanks @strange python
pastel hatch
I guess I can just pray to rngesus that ill be lucky. Which slot has highest chance aka would be best to aim for?
cobalt pelican
@gleaming viper it literally just is what it reads as, the minimum dps the sim reached in a single iteration was 78k, the max was 108k, the average is 91.6k and the standard deviation is 3.7k
generally with a ta set std dev will go up to like 5.8k or something stupid
which more or less just means the dps varies more
3.7k is pretty low as far as current tier wow specs go
but it still just highlights that wow is still rng fiesta game regardless of ta or not :)
sweet rampart
What do you guys do opener wise on nzoth? We get pulled out of stealth, and i have been popping vend +vanish and double garotting the first psych. Are most of you waiting to do that till you can hit nzoth himself? Heroic btw
cobalt pelican
what are your goals for the fight, parsing? is this a new fight for you?
sweet rampart
not new to the raid but yest slightly new to me, just got AOTC last night on it, so i guess the goal is parsing
the raid had gotten AOTC about 3 weeks ago, then my group came in, so we are a little bit lower geared, and mostly my goals are just parsing since it isn't progression for them
cobalt pelican
mm ok, if that's the case your best bet is probably holding vanish and vend till the 4th or 5th synapse dies and then popping both on psychus
which synapse you wait for kinda depends on how fast your raid kills them and psychus
but just make sure you get the majority of your vend burst on him before he dies which usually means using it at like 60% health or something
sweet rampart
are the synapse the tentalces you kill while dragging the psychus around?
cobalt pelican
yes
actually i guess what i'm saying
doesn't even make sense after the log change
uhhh
hm
at this point i think i would just hold everything till nzoth is hittable
strange python
Ye, any Vendetta is same value in terms of parses on Nzoth now as long as you get full uptime
vast forum
no more psychus pad 
sweet rampart
gotcha, i did a few attempts doing that, i struggled a lot more dps wise, jsut seems like my burst coming out of the first psyhcus stage couldn't didn't result super well. That's probably just gear wise though, but then i switched to vend +vanish garrote garrote on the very first psychus and the burst was much better. Those synapses dies just sooo dang quick, there is almost no point in me putting any rupture up on them
but i am probably just padding numbers basically on the psychus to start when i do that
leaden lichen
Just fuck around until nzoth is vulnerable then go nuts
And still lose to a fire mage
verbal sparrow
true 
sweet rampart
haha ok so rotationally though that is the best bet coming out to hit nzoth? Vendetta > Vanish > Garrote x2 > Rupture > exsang? Not having stealth available in the opener is awkward lol
leaden lichen
Vanish then do the opener
sweet rampart
....yeah after i typed that i am not having any empowered garrotes if i do that order lol
strange python
Double garrote in a row is never the Play.
With 1 or more SS you gar rup gar
sweet rampart
So vanish, then just go with standard opener. Yup
raw oasis
Is double dose affected by mastery?
sweet rampart
thanks guys! I will try that next week
strange python
He doesnt have rupture running
sweet rampart
I wouldn't have rupture running
strange python
He comes out of psychus Phase
quartz depot
i didnt read that part
delicate bone
double garrote is bad because you miss out on a tick of dmg from the first garrote if you do it that way.
sweet rampart
Does wowanalyzer kinda rip you guys up to on yuor up times with nzoth and stuff? Seems like there is a lot of down times for not having bleeds up, i assume that is normal
Or maybe i should assume if wowanalyzer says i am fucking up on my uptimes, i am fucking up lol
white wyvern
Pretty sure WowAnalyzer's suggestions are mostly shit.
strange python
Wowanalyzer isnt well maintained for all Specs
sweet rampart
ahh really? Perhaps i should not focus on that then
strange python
For some probably yes, but Last I checked it isn't good for assa
Been months though
Learn to analyze your logs yourself
Once you get used to wcl Interface and functions, it's easy
sweet rampart
roger roger
warm hazel
Hello, is the build 3x SS without EB viable in M+. I would like to see what is the tipping point to go for 3x EB + HB talent rather than CT + 3x HoD + 3x SS for instance?
crimson palm
unless u specify key levels anything is viable
warm hazel
Ok let's switch viable for most damage output then ^^
crimson palm
and the response is still the same
warm hazel
Ok I am talking 18+
mighty elm
https://gyazo.com/8cbb75304eb35a6d1ca4d3a49ab6f077 is this actually the optimal thing to do for 2nd vendetta
crimson palm
In some dungeons where you pull big you need eb, but on low keys shit will just die to 6x garrote bote anyway
warm hazel
The reasoning is that in M+ going for HB + 3x EB is like heavy on AoE and mostly shines imo when you have big pulls. Where there might be an edge to go for CT + 3x HoD + 3 SS in order to keep a reasonable damage output on bosses too. Like this week, Tyrannical without anything preventing big pulls except brains to manage Bursting. Investing a lot on the AoE part of the build is trading off the ST part for bosses.
untold garnet
@warm hazel I’ve been thinking the same thing. The higher you go the smaller the pulls which devalues EB. Right?
onyx crane
I know it's not the end all and be all but I did statweight on my rogue and haste had low value
I am sitting at 35% atm
modern heart
are people running crimson tempest now cause of poison bomb rng?
lean marten
CT is another bleed :^)
modern heart
so the more haste the better it becomes
onyx crane
anyone can chime in on why haste was valued so low, it was below versi even
strange python
Not because of RNG, it simply deals more damage at extreme haste Levels
And bonus Points for having a Talent which actually allows AoE at that point
modern heart
im hardstuck at expedient 11 and infin 3
strange python
@onyx crane because of your gear
onyx crane
yeah but is there a point in game where haste just becomes less valuable or
modern heart
finally broke the 100k sim
strange python
Im hardstuck at expedient 0 because I never dropped one and I missed expedient 3 week.
Gonna buy 7 though when it comes back up. And will have 8 or 9 Sockets available then, so ready to replace my whoooole gear
modern heart
yei replaced it all on wednesday, really like the build
frigid briar
modern heart
ill test it out tonight
strange python
Stats lose and gain value due to many different things.
In Singletarget haste has more value than AoE by Default because on AoE you have enough bleeds up to make the Energy regen Part of Haste useless.
And generally If you are wearing hella Stat Amps for Stat X, Stat X tends to become more valuable obviously.
Up to a certain Point though only. E.g. people with minmaxed Endgame Gear with expedient stacking and the SS build reach levels of haste where a non haste Item outperforms a Haste Item, simply because they have so much haste from other sources already.
Etc.
sinful island
We should use Toxic blade on CD, right? Even tho we can't cast as many env during the window?
never hold it i mean
strange python
On CD yes, but you should always get at least 3 env in it
No reason not to
Plan around it
sinful island
Alright, thanks!
strange python
Like, go into a TB window with 3 or 4 CP and high energy and you will always hit 3 env at least with current Gear.
It's easy to plan around
sinful island
Yeah I'll look into it!
devout shadow
Could anyone help me a bit with trinkets for the exsang raid build? i'm confused between 475 vita/475 galecaller's boon/455 coral/465 plumage. I'm currently using vita/boon as it feels better but am not too sure on the performance. Highest sim is boon/coral but I seem to be doing better with vita/boon. Also wondering about using hc cara chest instead of mythic vex chest for the extra SS, but it also sims lower.This is my sim for reference https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ayQqxmhjWGiXdCoBChND28
TLDR: Should I trust these sims or go with what people are doing and get 3x SS even w/ lower ilvl pieces and use vita/plumage?
warm hazel
@strange python would you say TB is mandatory even in M+ build where you play CT ? Like Exsang would be much more value for money when you play around bleeds rather than poisons.
strange python
No, it's not "mandatory". But I don't Play assa in m+ outside of KR/WS/sometimes siege and temple. And there I play exsang ye.
I don't really care about m+, ask seli or someone else
lean marten
that talent row is pretty much ST so doesn't matter much for aoe
dense blaze
Is there a benefit to stacking a group of 5 people with vita shard in a raid? For the party haste when it procs
warm hazel
@marble hemlock Hello , I looked into your rio profile and I see that around top 20, there is a go for 3x SS + some EBs (up to 3) but in the talent side there some going for Exsang and poison bombs and other for TB and CT or mix of it. Do you have some insights about how to solve that in order to perform best in M+ (around 18+) maybe there is a switch to be done based on affixes?
drifting light
U guys heard anything about testing on the sepsis covenant ability now that ardewald is out? Im digging the concept that it grants us vanish when target doesnt die, should spice rotation up a bit.
grizzled trail
On nzoth mythic when do you guys drop first vanish
2nd tentacles or psychus or just hold till nzoth?
I want vanish to line with thought harvesters ideally have never worked out my timings correctly
dense blaze
I just do N'zoth damage, we got three fire mages to take care of thots
tropic ocean
@warm hazel I’ve been thinking the same thing. The higher you go the smaller the pulls which devalues EB. Right?
@untold garnet the higher you go the bigger the pulls
dark token
^^^
tropic ocean
because how you gonna time the same dungeon but with more and more mob hp
correct, by pulling bigger
dark token
in higher keys people pull around cds and on how dangerous the trash is (how many things need kicks)?
its often like 4 pack -> 16 pack - > 4 pack -> 16 pack
tropic ocean
and especially the higher you go
your st will have less value than your aoe
due to trash being pulled into bosses
(depending on key obviously)
dark token
i would play echoing blades in every dungeon but KR/workshop which has limits on trash pulls because of large distance between packs, artificial timed events, or packs being very dangerous
even on KR it's prob worth to run it if you do giga pulls
tropic ocean
i play ss eb everywhere except tos/ws/kr/siege basically
siege imo not really much value due to spotter
so rather have more dmg on high hp trash mobs
which usually are 1-2
analog phoenix
I have a question for the exsang build: It's played with deeper strategem. We only play with deeper because of the 5% increased dmg of finishers, right? because I don't see in the opener nor the normal rotation that we ever go above 5 combo points. it's always just 2x mutilate + env. Or do I miss something?
vast forum
vigor has 0 value when you have so much haste and you finish on 6 A LOT
delicate bone
youre energy is impacted a good bit by your haste, giving the 1 cp a lot of value since you dont need the more energy when you regain is so fast
tropic ocean
@analog phoenix you go above 5, you just don't use mutilate when you are at 5
because the overcap of cp is a dps loss
analog phoenix
okay ty. i was checking logs and they only ever mutilated twice before using envenom again
prisma perch
i take too much dmg in mask runs...
tropic ocean
but did you check how much cp they got?
cuz 2x mut can potentially leave you with 8 cp
@prisma perch use leeching poison and ghastly ghoulash
gray crest
do i yolo to try and get the gorak tuls shoulder piece?
lone junco
I got it twice on druid.(450 and 480) Never on rogue.
grave trail
Killing ourselves our min max with this whole high haste build only to be outdpsed by decent rng tenddies 
cedar vessel
If I have 3 x SS, and 2 x EB, is it worth using in m+? Currently playing outlaw but lacking Crit, thought I’d try it out
Is the lack of a third EB that big?
crimson palm
@quasi pewter pretty cool Vanish delay on Wrath 😄
grave trail
delay for vop vend?
crimson palm
aye
candid jasper
quasi pewter
@crimson palm yes i know very 
innovation by me
uneven aspen
What do I do if (for example) garrote has 12 seconds left, and rupture 15 seconds, but Exsanguinate is coming off cooldown soon. Is it okay to refresh dots early to be able to cast Exsanguinate right away?
vast forum
yes
definitely reapply 6cp rupture in that case
idk what the treshold is for garrote tho
@candid jasper GW is still decent
but won't be the best in any case
tropic ocean
with latest thing I know from koji u will refresh garrote too
if its off cd
- Pre-Exsanguinate it will attempt to Garrote -> Max CP Rupture -> Exsanguinate regardless of existing Garrote duration, if Garrote is available in ST and adds won't spawn within 6 seconds (minor 0.4-0.6% gain for ST Exsanguinate to do this when it aligns)
this
vast forum
i thought it wouldn't just fully commit to it but i guess i was wrong 😄
tropic ocean
well minor gain but I guess
its very easy to memorize to just refresh dots before exsang
uneven aspen
You guys are talking about 6cp ruptures; Does that mean that I should aim for 6 combo points in that case, even if I would risk overcapping?
ebon forge
hey guys
uneven aspen
True, gotcha. Thanks!
ebon forge
i got a question, gearing up from PVP can be good to clear pve content ?
tropic ocean
@fleet anchor with clf on nzoth
do u just hold it for first boss dps phase?
but that will make 1 lose an usage?
ebon forge
cause atm im rival and was thinking to push it
tropic ocean
more the other way around sadly
theres a few good pieces u get from high rated pvp
but u rather gear up pve to be good in pvp sadly
tribal obsidian
Do you guys hold first vanish on raden for 3 targets empowered garrote
scarlet sequoia
yes
vast forum
@ebon forge you can get good gear from pvp but most of your bis stuff will come from pve this patch, seeing as hod and bbi are unavailable on pvp azerite pieces and the best daggers/trinket come from raid
tribal obsidian
Figured
woven knoll
Best dagger is carapace dagger, I assume?
strange python
I'm fairly new to rogue, was looking to pick it up for guild M+. We're mostly in the high teen keys, but I'm finding more and more I pref Assassination over Outlaw. How much worse is that than Outlaw at the right gear?
Data supports outlaw obv, but I'm having a tough time finding out by how much
white wyvern
@strange python Sin can be played in M+ to a very high level.
vast forum
the problem with assa is that your tank needs to know when it's ok to chainpull and when it's not
strange python
Let's assume my guild is casuals who will probably never pass 22-23 M+
And probably won't complete like carapice(dagger) on Mythic
vast forum
i'd say go all out on assa except maybe in SoB if you're doing spotter tactics and AD if you're doing tricks snaps
fleet anchor
@tropic ocean Yes I was just holding for first Shattered Ego
Don't really care about the start of the fight, shit just gets blasted nowadays lol
tropic ocean
is it worth to use over bote then if you lose 1 usage?
fleet anchor
Yes
fleet anchor
I mean if you think about it, considering CLF beats BotE on 3 minute fights 1 vs 2 usage...
vast forum
i mean, first bote is just padding if you use on first set of tentacles, those die in 5 sec anyway 😛
tropic ocean
im gonna maximize for boss dps anyway
tropic ocean
we gonna mc lust straight out of chamber so probably clf worth anyway
vast forum
@fleet anchor can you link a log?
fleet anchor
My kill pull was kinda meh though.. I did like 10k more on our low-% wipe a few pulls earlier.. RIP 😛
As we got further into the fight people got a lot more aggressive about padding shit earlier on the fight haha
It's crazy how much stuff just explodes now
First Bashers were dying in almost 10 seconds haha
fleet anchor
If you want to get some parse value I was having luck using Vendetta on 2nd adds
As long as you don't delay it at all, it's fine for first Shattered Ego
So you can Vendetta Vanish->Sprint and sometimes get Basher/Corrupter/Spike
But even that started to get iffy later into the night lol
We had a few wipes since we were bringing in a bunch of new people this week, plus the strat adjustment
fleet anchor
Early in the night I used to get full value on like the Corrupter
Later pulls it was just being blown up lol
strange python
Hey gang, guild will be doing Vex, cara, and nzoth for the first time tonight on heroic. Any tips? Things to cloak, etc?
I haven't done Vex at all
tropic ocean
yeah boss dmg seems big with clf
almost 20mil before chamber
ct is used in st now, so not its not pad on psychophages
@fleet anchor
😄 😄 😄 😄
fleet anchor
Exactly
It's not pad, just focusing on my priority Basher and Psychus damage
The Psychophages just HAPPEN to be there
Not my fault
🤣
Although I think my Psychopage damage was probably like the lowest in the raid almost
On the kill pull I think our tank decided to just obliterate the first set up top with triple TD procs
plucky shadow
Hi guys is there any guide on exsang build?
placid cloak
@strange python you can stack puddles if you go into an existing one with 2 secs left on your debuff. you should only drop to about 50% at the most. cloak breath if you screw up in phase 1, cloak darkness aoe if you want in phase 2
strange python
Thanks 🙂
placid cloak
stun the spinny dudes when they start spinning
strange python
This is on vex yeah?
placid cloak
yeah
strange python
kk. yeah never done her before so just wanted to see if i can skip some mechanics and all that jazz
placid cloak
people usually wipe to breath, or not killing adds fast enough.
puddle management is also a big deal, but i think the first two are more important
strange python
Recommend switching to bote for it? Or just stick with clf?
Probably wouldn't be able to swap after the fight
strange python
breath of the enemy
placid cloak
blood of the enemy or azerite beam would be good
and this fight is way easier if you’re outlaw
if you’re not outlaw i’d use beam
unless you have aoe traits for the other specs
strange python
i usually do okay with sin on hivemind, is it kind of similar?
placid cloak
gl
strange python
thanks! if all goes well we'll be trying cara and nzoth first time as well 🙂
shut garnet
is it normal for 475 socket vita to be 500dps below 445 socket font
shut garnet
so given how many ppl play vita id assume it's better regardless of what sim says?
vital haven
but vita scales better with expedient i assume and also it provides a buff to your grp
vital haven
@plucky shadow check the pins
paper ermine
@vital haven u exsang or norm
vital haven
exsang
plucky shadow
How do i check pins?
mystic crest
u click the pin
plucky shadow
got it , thanks!
vital haven
np
paper ermine
I wish I could buy corruption for pve but I have to buy it for pvp
shut garnet
paper ermine
Im exsang and I have exped 5 but I could do so much more