They do better on hivemind
#assassination
rigid mango
modest tendon
Like I compete with people as outlaw regardless
rigid mango
Add damage on vex is irrelevant
Carapace yeah, maybe.
Not really any fights were outlaw is a better pick than sin is
modest tendon
But outlaw has some nice utility for a lot of fights like grappling for shadhar, killing adds faster for xanesh
It does a bit less ST but meh
dusky birch
I would argue that its only hivemind and maybe carapace too but that arguement only holds if your raid leadership looks at prio dmg and not overall numbers
rigid mango
Yeah well I wouldn't wanna raid w people who value pad
That's a backwards way of thinking for prog so
dusky birch
I guess that's true
vast forum
being able to pad on small adds on vexiona and hivemind is irrelevant for progress
dusky birch
And there's alot of trash dmg in our raid. Like some damaging drest while not with a buff etc.
rigid mango
Havn't played otl entire tier and probs wont be either
modest tendon
Well there are priority adds on hive mind and vexiona it’s not just padding
dusky birch
Yeah I woule say so too Yoppa
vast forum
you can do 0 add dmg on vexiona as a rogue and be perfectly useful to your raid
long portal
As many have said, it just depends on your comp. Other classes can easily kill adds and still do good boss damage.
dusky birch
There's one on hivemind that should concern sin rogues. And the adhd ones that fly around should be ranged problems
jaunty arrow
Ads will always die coz warrs, dhs, monk and ranged
long portal
Outlaw is only stronger on Cara, imo
rigid mango
Nah it's not really down to comp tbh
long portal
Otherwise, just depends on your raid needs
rigid mango
During healphase if you attack thr boss it's semi troll
vast forum
i'm talking in general, if you have fire mages, bringing extra aoe is literally pointless
rigid mango
And other way round for when it's not
Give or take
But ye, outlaw isn't better so no reason to play it :)
dusky birch
We killed the adds and had nothing to do for a few seconds. So there were alot of trash dmg and I just filled up my cp and waited so I had full energy
rigid mango
Sin is more wanted from a raid team and generally better, on a tier to tier average. Knowing outlaw and/or sub wont hurt, but being a sin rogur primarily is better.
dusky birch
Yeah, as I said. I enjoy sin alot more
Outlaw I keep up to date to do some m+ pugs
Atleast until I can find the aoe azerite trait for my chest piece
crimson palm
tbh I feel like we're outclassed this tier
little incentive to bring rogues in
bosses need more deadly soaks >.>
shrewd night
dusky birch
What are you guys thoughts on the alchemy 470 trinket?
digital zodiac
what you guys think about 465 boon? its simming higher than my dice and plumage but dunno if worth using
dusky birch
I bet it might be better if you can pop it on cd and be guaranteed to stand in it for the full durqtion
potent raft
going for vex mythic progress tonight
i was wondering if Sub might pull more boss dmg due to funnelling
or just stick sin?
lethal heart
most likely not worth unless your guild does some really 5head shit
where you phase boss right as adds spawn
but even then they're probably better if warlocks can spam their w/e stuff
so assa is safer choice imo
potent raft
we have 0 pulls so idk what to expect, but fair 1 vote for sin 😄
rigid mango
Just go sin
lethal heart
the only part that matters in this fight is from 40% to 0%
lethal heart
so pretty convinced assa does best there even tho you get only 1 vendetta
potent raft
👍 thanks
potent raft
that'd also align with CLF
rigid mango
no one cares about u getting another vend
lethal heart
thats troll
rigid mango
ye
potent raft
gucci
potent raft
logs are private so it doesnt matter
potent raft
afaik there were too many log padders so they put private logs so they get cucked and be more progress oriented instead 😄
lethal heart
ye many guilds do that
rigid mango
ours didn't change
lethal heart
but yea this tier so many bosses are troll
and you can pad damage so much for no reason
potent raft
iirc ghuun had healing mechanic like drest and it was getting excluded from logs
but i guess it's harder to implement with the nature of the buff now, instead of just phase
wispy marsh
Is mastery any good for sin?
rigid mango
yes mastery is fine
quasi pewter
just gem full mastery now
potent raft
rigid mango
ye
fast nacelle
😒
idle ember
trying to find a minimal stat deficit for 2k patchwerk difference is simcity
39 corruption - 9% crit boots and vita vs
46 corruption - 12% haste belt and dragonscale
cobalt pelican
h uh
idle ember
just trying to have gems/enchants that function for either set one is progression one is farm
cobalt pelican
i still gem crit with my expedient boots on beause reasons
idle ember
because I'm bad and cant manage thing from beyond
subtle tundra
kicked for playing assa once again 
quasi pewter
latent gazelle
Don’t let them see your sin till after they start key
“Wanna boot me for playing the king of rogue? Ha there goes your key!”
royal lantern
eh
if they kick you for beeing sin, be happy they are out
or just ask them why X is not meta class 
modest tendon
Yep ask them why and laugh at their answer
latent gazelle
Tank for my usual group likes when I go sin over outlaw
royal lantern
why is the healer not a druid, kick him, why are the other 2 dps not a dh and firemage, kick both etc....
latent gazelle
You mean why is healer not hpaly?
modest tendon
My group hates me playing sin lol
lethal heart
@fast nacelle 
latent gazelle
I do comparable damage in either spec. Usually depends on key which I go tho but with my 3 TD I usually go outlaw now
Well 2 TD and 1 r3 deadly
tired galleon
I have td in both specs ez
sacred flax
Ppl who only care for meta classes are sad ppl who prob lost all fun with the game.
modest tendon
Well in pugs I always try to get meta classes
Like dh, rdruid/hpala, etc
But assa is a meta spec
sacred flax
Ppl who have high score with not meta classes I would pick em over any meta class, cuz they prolly know in pugs what they're doing
modest tendon
I agree I’d take a 3k enhancement shaman over a 2k dh for example
sacred flax
Even with the same score
rigid mango
daring dagger
how do you sim for m+? is dungeon slice good for assassination?
storm perch
dslice is bad for sin, you can't properly sim sin for m+
the best advice i got in this chat was stack crit/mastery, use 3x ss + as much eb as it possible. If you are going for dungeons like kr, tos, siege etc, pick less eb, get some ttk or bbi
daring dagger
k thx
hollow stone
You can try some custom sims like 5 targets 30-40 sec as a pseudo trash pull combined w a single target sim thats like 2mins-ish. And then put more weight on the trash pull and decide that way. Its far from ideal, but its more accurate for sin than dslice
fast nacelle
@lethal heart 
rough creek
I have 2x racing pulse rings, they stack right?
scarlet sequoia
yes
rough creek
thx
brave verge
Hi, anyone can help me with my trinkets??
strange python
just fought maut with 3eb 3ss and aoe gear
cause i didnt swap after clearing trash...
strange python
something with an R?
umbral mauve
What corruption should i use on raden, is or ta?
strange python
fairy after hitting the filter for the 15th time
though a lot of ppl have been hitting it when talking about maut
strange python
how were the xanesh timers?
is second soak/football grp right when 2nd vendetta comes up?
or way earlier
hollow stone
On mythic?
vagrant tapir
Someone just pointed out to me that the guide we have on
Raventholdt for sin does not have any information about the number of targets to start using CT at, how many targets to rupture on aoe, how many targets to stop using envenom on
usually i just direct people to ravenholdt for the guide, but im realising I havent looked at it in a while and there are some holes in it. Do we have a more complete rogue guide currently?
cobalt pelican
the wowhead guide is maintained by mystler i think
vague rock
is it better for m+ to take 3 eb or 3 ss
which has more value? i think ss because garrote is usually my top by a lot
vagrant tapir
ahh kk
cobalt pelican
ss is consistently valuable in every dungeon at every pull size as long as you're getting to stealth occassionally
vague rock
true
hard garnet
hello I have just ben messing around with my character a little but I am not sure why my dps is so low I am fairly new to the game so i don't fully know my class yet, I was wondering if someone could take a look at my sim and give me some guidance 🙂
cobalt pelican
it's just basic copies in advanced sim, you can just copy the bottom part of the 'raw input' section and put your simc in the top
cobalt pelican
your gear looks kinda like what would be expected of a new player, just lots of things to work on in lots of departments
why is your crucible of flame still rank 1
hard garnet
my crucible of flame?
cobalt pelican
yeah, the essence
you can reshuffle your essences around for sure
like this is just if you get crucible rank 3
hard garnet
the one I have in my major is worldvein
cobalt pelican
but you really ne ed to work on lucid, crucible of flame, worldvein, finish off conflict
crucible is 2 ~10 min quests to get rank 3
hard garnet
yeah I am currently doing the map thing for rank 2
oh is rank 3 really quick to get?
cobalt pelican
you need 60 neck
which used to be
what made it take a long time
but since you get 60 neck basically when you spawn in now
you just have to do short quests given in the chamber of heart
hard garnet
yeah I got a 60 neck when I lvl boosted
cobalt pelican
but yeah, that's like a ~5k gain just for moving the essences around, and a few small swaps
you'll keep gaining, make sure you do your lucid dailies every day in nazjatar
worldvein is weekly gated but you're working on it so it's fine
and then keep getting gear
hard garnet
yeah
I mean I have curve already
and I use raidbots for the droptimzer but heroic nya doesn't drop me much good things
only cara really who drops me the dagger
cobalt pelican
there are tons of upgrades for you in the raid s till
vex chest is likely an upgrade, nzoth shoulders definitely are, raden helm is
any corruptions are basically upgrades for you and they drop at a decent rate from the raid
hard garnet
yeah true
because I was looking at bloodmallet for the essences and things and I got a bit confused with the whole thing
torn bear
hod can get some value as well, if you only have raid pieces
hard garnet
yeah I did switch all the traits to hod recently as I saw that 3 of them caused more dmg output that 3 nothing personal
I think I know why my droptimizer doesn't say about the benefits, I think its because I don't have premium and the azerite stuff aint calculated
cobalt pelican
probably
hard garnet
yeah because I don't think free droptimzer users can see azerite drops unless they get premium
not sure though
vivid burrow
anyone able to look at a log and critique it?
is it more important to look at parse % or ilvl parse?
drifting cloud
Well ilvl parse are kinda useless but if you are undergeared your overall will be as well
dawn root
Yeah parses this tier seem pretty meh, since so much of your dps is influenced by the right corruptions which can't be controlled
vivid burrow
yeah, just wasnt sure
here is the log is anyone can look
i know a few things like using all toxic blades and WV but timing didnt allow it
wild edge
thin oyster
It's great to use with a constant stream of adds since it will be on low CD most of the time
rigid mango
Because melee are the fucken ooga booga squad
Hitting all the tentacles
The ranged-enablers, essentially.
distant lava
kill squad 
deep wedge
infinite sqtars is considered pretty bad against draest'agath I guess right ?
distant lava
yes
rigid mango
ooga booga squad signing in 
plain thistle
autumn slate
I want to sim this item without corruption # Footpads of Terrible Delusions (475)
feet=,id=175007,bonus_id=4824/6578/6579/6542/6515/1517/4786,context=6 what do I need to remove to do that
dark lily
use gear compare
honest vessel
theres also a button at the top of the top gear choices for removing corruption
deep wedge
does ilgynoth reset is stacks when he switch phases ?
rigid mango
Since coral doesn't I don't see why is would.
sturdy python
@autumn slate I believe it’s the 1517 bonus Id but top gear is definitely easier if that’s all you’re trying to do
Nope I was wrong, you can check here though
https://github.com/simulationcraft/simc/blob/bfa-dev/SpellDataDump/bonus_ids.txt
autumn slate
thanks friend
plush remnant
What corruptions should I be going for on fights like drest. Running IS rn but know it’s bad on non ST
rigid mango
Anything else, essentially.
proud salmon
does the new affix placement in a dungeon rotate weekly
or is it random everytime
ie. if i go into atal now will i be able to know beforehand where the spider is ?
plush remnant
It’s a two week rotation between 2 presets. MDT will have the placements each week if you have the addon
summer moon
someone can help me with my sim?
glacial steppe
I have a specific question about the Sin opener. You are supposed to open with Mut > Rup (if 4+ CP) > Mut > Garr, correct? I tend to end up with 5 CP at this point which would mean that if I TB soon afterwards Id waste CP. Does that matter or do I TB anyways?
dark token
https://i.imgur.com/A6NO1ua.png pog, finally
hollow stone
Should we tell him?
rigid mango
dark token
...my titanshard is better omegalul
hollow stone
He found out
hollow stone
Yea. Unfortunately my 475 socketed gcb sits in the bank 😦
drifting cloud
galecallers wasnt good even in 2019
hollow stone
Truth
hollow stone
Sure was
deep wedge
titanshard sims much lower for me tho for static fights
dark token
@vestal wren i see you
glacial willow
Hey, quick question, is ineffable truth worth keeping? have a pretty good ring with it but its 30 corruption
hollow stone
Keep it. Who knows what the next wave of corruption tuning brings us
dense parcel
Hi all, in m+ are people running triple fan of knives trait + triple SS? Or is it worth put a envenom trait in to?
subtle tundra
depends from dungeon to dungeon, affix to affix
vestal wren
i thought people already commented enough on GC, so i stopped typing
dark token
@dense parcel shrouded >> blightborne > echoing blades = ttk/hod i think
everything else trash
hollow stone
Cookie cutter, yea, 3ss, 3eb. Bbi is good, hod is good, ttk is ok
rigid mango
eb >bbi
dark token
if you pull big yah
subtle tundra
this week if all about the big pulls
dense parcel
Okay I'm running 3 ss 2 eb and 1 ttk
rigid mango
If you play normally in most dungeons*
hollow stone
Idk how this 1np for m+ would work with this vop minor dealeo. Zine??
dense parcel
Seems strong but wanted to see if I can make improvements
rigid mango
Dunno how good it is
idk last week I had 0 issues with any overall, this week I've only done 1 key since we're pushing this weekend
hollow stone
3ss 2eb 1ttk is a pretty nice setup
rigid mango
dense parcel
Feel like ttk just adds some dps to bosses
subtle tundra
you also envenom in aoe
hollow stone
Ehhh. Its ok
subtle tundra
sometimes
dense parcel
Alright cheers guys
8 saw seliathan was running 2ss 1ttk and 3 eb
Didn't know the 3rd as was worth losing
Ss*
rigid mango
About ilvl too
Ask him yourself 😄
He's using all kinds of stuff can't say for certain what's the best, tbh.
Depends on your pulls etc
hollow stone
Yea. He’d have to explain himself... but ilvl is absolutely a factor this early in the season
dark token
mfw u can change talents and neck but not azerite in raids 
hollow stone
You dont have 4 sets of az for every situation? Casual
dense parcel
^ 😂
dark token
of 430 azerite sure
hollow stone
Im just busting your balls cause i havent seen you in here for so long and assumed you were just starting back up :p
dark crag
any tips for drestagath?
hollow stone
Im not proging it yet. But from what ive seen in here so far, botd major, and then youre just add duty to feed into your casters, basically
So use botd mj intelligently for the resets
dark crag
and every 2 min cds into boss?
hollow stone
Havent seen anyone talk cd usage; gonna have to wait for somebody more prog’d for that
I would assume yes, but idk the tendy situation, you might need to vend on tendies
hallow kraken
Mastery/crit for m+ right?
weary marten
Hey guys i'm playing with worldvein major essence, what the opener should look like ?
can't find this info
rigid mango
@hallow kraken y
@weary marten replace CLF with WV in the opener
@dark crag breath major, goon squad on tentacles try to pickup orbs around vend timer
weary marten
my game is not in english, which one is CLF ?
oh condensed life force
ok
thanks
deep wedge
damn I just got carapace dagger and it looks like i'm supposed to purify it, according to my sim my haste proc is higher up
surprised
hollow stone
Til blizz decides to nerf other corruptions without warning 
hollow stone
No. But i wouldnt be surprised if they did another pass
So, personally, i dont cleanse shit
deep wedge
indeed yeah, they nerfed ev pretty hard I believe is and gw might be on their list too
gusty mirage
that's the play when you implement a system with little to no testing, aka the entire expansion
hollow stone
Its pure speculation
Right, lol
It sucks, man. Im keeping trash ass corruptions just in case of nerf/buffs
Great system
gusty mirage
it feels bad though, because corruption had such an upside but jesus it was implemented like shit
modest raptor
Is it normal to be energy caped during ST opener with SS+subterfuge ?
dark token
@hollow stone holy, you remember my name? amazing
uldir killed my motivation to play for 2 years but im back baby
hollow stone
Sure do. We had some good chats
@modest raptor i wouldnt necessarily say its “normal” but its def not unheard of to be energy capped during your opener w vend and lust running
tropic surge
is galecallers boon shit/sim bait? my pvp medallion(450) is simming higher than boon 440 on ST
hollow stone
Yea. Gcb is pretty shit now
tropic surge
thought so, thx
hollow stone
430 font + 440 socketed coral or 445 inkpod + 440 socketed coral both sim better than any of those combo’d w my 475 socketed gcb
hollow stone
It really is
tacit wing
soulcap was fun
dark token
soulkappa was simultaneously super troll and super fun
i remember in world pvp putting down a target dummy and stacking it on it then shadowstepping on someone and insta popping it
tbh wod would have been the best expac if they added m+
it was so chill just logging in and raiding and all the raids were sick af
none of this grind shit
tacit wing
hfc was so fucking good
dark token
blackhand was amazing
tacit wing
is echoing void trash now? doing like 3% of dmg in m+
rigid mango
Big time.
sweet inlet
so in an ideal world i would have 3x SS and 3x EB right? but if i can only 3stack one or the other it would be 3x SS > 3x EB?
For M+
clever niche
a single nothing personal is nice for boss dmg
rigid mango
I'd rate the traits somewhere along the line of
SS > EB > TTK > BBI/HoD/Swirl > NP
Probs.
deep wedge
according to what I see in terms of corruption it's IS on wrathion, maut xanesh skitra and shad'har, and the rest mind flay is better ? (except for aoe heavy fight I believe)
scarlet sequoia
do u want consistent damage or rng damage
deep wedge
yeah it feels like both are rng but TA seems less rng no ? :p
I mean IS seems less rng
i'm asking that because I actually have one T3 IS and one T2 TA thanks to carapace weapon
I can't wear both since raidbots is telling me my haste proc is much better than the TA, which I can understand, however on some fight IS seems not that good ("only" did 7% on ilgy for example when it does 11-14% on maut, doggy, wrathion etc) that's why maybe TA could take the lead here ? I also have 2 TA gloves, T1 and T2 so maybe I could try to get 2 TA but since raidbots doesn't take into account boss uptime on boss(or does it ?) simming doesn't feel 100% accurate
but also feelycrafting is even shittier :p
harsh sphinx
viral aurora
how valid / good is Bloodmallet guys?
where do I look for general guidance when it comes to essences, azerites and corruption. Yeah i know, sim etc. talking general
deep wedge
wowhead guide is pretty good
glacial steppe
yo, could anyone check our last doggo kill and tell me what i could improve one? my dps seems a bit low tho https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/NYMah3cq1mK8XbPd#fight=28&type=damage-done&source=14
idle lily
EB or DD for Mythic plus
shy dust
idle lily
Really CT?
rigid mango
PB works everywhere, but is the best choice in dungeons that are more focused on bosses and small packs, the likes of kr/ws/siege/tyr temple
CT/HB are valid choices too, outside of these cases.
Generally picking one of the latter in other dungeons will yield better damage 🙂
dapper zodiac
can someone post some valid dps raidbots sim
of rogue
anyone plays subterfuge also?
rigid mango
wdym valid dps
potent pond
For m+ as assassination, would you rather prefer using 450 chest with echoing/shrouding - or 475 chest with shrouded and either heart of darkness, or nothing personal? ❤️
rigid mango
475
potent pond
And how come if i may ask, since echoing is really strong in m+ (afaik). and i see ppl doing +20s with 450 azerites
rigid mango
Because ilvl matters a lot and the other traits are great
rigid mango
HoD Probably better overall.
rigid mango
Idk if there's a direct cutoff, but that diff seems appropriate atleast
potent pond
okay ^_^
subtle tundra
i mean i have the same choice to make and i feel like when dropping eb when we giga pull i lose so much
subtle tundra
depends on the dungeons i guess
subtle tundra
when we do fh/shrine going 3 eb is so giga
rigid mango
shrine N fh/ml y
glacial vessel
how much haste do i want as an assass rogue?
rigid mango
as much as sims tell you
strange python
Do you get tired of telling people to sim? Do rogues not have a macro to post that? I swear there was one in the DH discord when people asked those questions.
drifting cloud
dmg
glacial vessel
ahh ok ty
honest needle
can some 1 help me how do u parse better on wrathion ? i dont know what im doing wrong https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/yBbYcXa8jFtP1CWf/#fight=last&type=damage-done
warm parcel
random feints here and there
no clue what youre doing when pillars come up
toxic blading in vanish
instead of before
poison knifing when you could just mut
dont really know why no bote with vop
even cloak was useless as the slow was about to drop anyway
this is not the way either
and Id not be surprised if subter/blood beat your current setup
mighty torrent
hey guys, there is currently a 400 dps difference for me between CLF and BOTE on PW sims, is that enough of a difference to still use CLF? BOTE feels so much nicer to use and covers fights that last less than the standard 5 min sim.
naive cypress
If you like it, why not
worn pilot
how do u boys sim which essences are the best
naive cypress
Top Gear
worn pilot
ill need more than that i dont have the addon 😄
mighty torrent
download the simulationcraft addon and then in game type /simc copy the string that pops up and paste it into the top gear section of the following website - raidbots.com then you can select essences near the bottom to sim
guide there^
woven pine
anybody tried the titanshard set? got both and one with a socket - been using vita in place of font tonight and other than missing my seal fates with the extra crit from Font stats it was about the sameish, got more casts off but felt i had to work and pool more to maximise Elaborate and use more GCDs just to get a finisher off. sitting around 30% haste (2k) and 32% crit (1743)
just worried it might be less consistent with the 1RPPM
woven pine
yeah i think that's what i like about font coral pairing
like my damage was a little lower tonight and i rarely noticed when i had vita up
if im being honest but its simming higher
tropic ocean
im currently not using vita even tho it sims better as the uptime is so poorly
woven pine
also felt like i played pretty well
woven pine
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mZGjhBqz6tJpgnTD#fight=14&type=damage-done like i did a bit higher than my previous parse and I think I played pretty spot on, only dropped like 2 combo points total and that was with TB but, I've also had a few minor upgrades since then, felt like if i was using them again i'd have better results - working well for you? I just like having higher crit over haste because of the consistency of getting them big chunks of CP every mutilate finisher, like I was consistently getting a envenom/Rupture off nearly every mutilate 4-5CP but then vers and mast drop and top gear sims start prioritising them pieces of gear.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/mZGjhBqz6tJpgnTD#fight=last&type=summary&source=3 Then shad'har which i did worse using them - think i might skip using vita until crit % is higher off flat gear
vague rock
when do you stop spamming fok in 6+ mob pulls? like i apply garrotes, ct, ruptures, bote then fok
ashen solar
dont forget exsanguinate
vague rock
is it just fok permanently until mbos are dead while reapplying bleeds
ashen solar
And OMG 40K
woven pine
pretty much
vague rock
it's 200k now
stable isle
@ashen solar fourty k dude it's fuckin ova
vague rock
where do i find the assa apl for sims?
vague rock
did i do this right? wanted to test if you use CT on 5+ targets to maintain elaborate planning
cobalt pelican
not quite, it's finishing with ct at any cp value above 0
even if you wanted to consider elaborate planning clipping ct for cast damage would be a very bad idea vs just pressing envenom
crisp hollow
is an SS build on M raden padding or is add damage actually relevant
next solar
so essentially the only way to parse is pray to rng gods for stars/tendril proc for shad T.T
cobalt pelican
if you're talking about r1 ya p much
the entire patch is more or less like that, every specs variance is through the roof
next solar
yup.
ionic cave
Yo guys is it troll for me to play assasination rogue in m+ ?
void pecan
No
vague rock
no it probably has one of the highest aoe damage
crisp hollow
its not as good as outlaw but is still extremely good when executed correctly
and the gap is less due to any damage reasons, moreso because gouge is nuts and not needing vanish for dps is really good
vague rock
ye I would recommend outlaw if you are serious about m+ because assa can be so restrictive sometimes
chain pulling ruins your damage, kidney shot is a long cd, you kinda need vanish to do competitive damage
silent parcel
Since dungeonslice sims are a bit scuffed, would you guys replace coral with spyglass for m+?
next solar
also, that face when stars does nearly 13% of the raids overall dmg to shadhar LOL
corruption is so dumb
quasi pewter
coral is alot better than spyglass for m+
silent parcel
Running coral + torment in a jar
wispy chasm
is it possible to sim corruptions? like on picked items?
silent parcel
Might be because I dont run high enough keys that it feels like I rarely get use out of coral. Bosses dont live long enough for 2 vendetta even with vision and trash dies in like 30s per pull so cant reactivate there either
shut garnet
instead of optimising for low keys that you’re clearly smashing the shit out of
quasi pewter
you dont reactivate coral on trash
silent parcel
Trying ^^
But why not reactivate on trash? To save crit for next pack with garrotes?
shut garnet
if your target with coral applied dies, you get the crit buff
and you can insta reapply coral to something else without it being put on a 20sec cd
fair relic
what is the best way to sim sin for m+? dungeon slice?
strange python
unless you know what you're doing just copy top players, it's pretty hard to sim assa m+
fair relic
kk ty
strange python
at a basic level just run 3x SS, 1-3x EB, 1-3HoD/TTK, stack crit+mastery
bote major, vision lucid breath minor
wintry nymph
Is it better to just spam fok in mtyhic + with 1 EB or should I be rupturing targets too?
onyx hedge
I see heaps of people running 1x Np It doing well for itself atm?
drifting cloud
yeah its decent also might just be on azerite thats most available to people
onyx hedge
Ye
drifting cloud
since theres no eb/ss from raid and gonna take a while for people to gamble and stuff
so you just take 480 azerite slightly worse traits because of ilvl
drifting cloud
oh NP was always good on st
its just we had loyal in EP so people never ran more than 1 if even 1
onyx hedge
Yeah but mainly been things like 3x dd 1x heart 1x ttk, blightborn
Been seeing more so np take over from ttk
cobalt pelican
the only people even playing ttk are the carapace chest players no?
doubt anyone is gambling for ceph in current year
cobalt pelican
not really sure i follow
onyx hedge
Nvm its fine
cobalt pelican
1np has always been on every tiers ideal gear set
stormwall helm, zaqul helm, whatever
ttk is a throwaway trait and always has been
that only got onto sets cause of ceph
and is only on sets now because of carapace
people will just instantly delete it forever when they get vex
(or maybe carapace mythic might be better by a tiny%)
honest needle
should i go for helm https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ea71HxVqgtiexq99yT5qSh
onyx hedge
Ik that, wasnt what i was asking. Was saying everyonr starting to use np now we getting some decent gear
cobalt pelican
only if you don't plan on getting engineering/killing maut mythic
honest needle
we have mythic maut on farm
so what should i do save for specific or go for soemthing else ?
cobalt pelican
lol
honest needle
@cobalt pelican so what should i go for from vendor or should i go for specific?
cobalt pelican
if you think you'll get maut mythic sometime soon it's better than probably all of those besides loa
honest needle
no i got the 2nd best
cobalt pelican
and in 8.2 barely anyone was playing loyal on zaq helm because nobody was log cheesing and it was only better in very specific gear
honest needle
i got the tentacle laced
which are 2nd best
so what do u guys think i should do ?
cobalt pelican
ehh how far from vex are you
onyx hedge
Gorak tuls is best then tentacle laced for single target
We cleared first 3 in first night then had someone leave guild on shad cause of healing argument
So abit off
cobalt pelican
probably still shoulders tbh
there's realistic upgrade paths for helm and chest kinda early in the raid
arctic walrus
nothing will replace goraks until you get nzoth shoulders
onyx hedge
Shoulders ye
arctic walrus
vex is plausible, and maut is there as well
onyx hedge
I got my goraks first try on mythic ilvl i give u my luck
honest needle
so maybe i should go for chest then according to my sim
onyx hedge
Up to you
honest needle
i cant see going for shoulders when i alrdy have 2nd best. the chances are rare. in that case i should save for specific then right ?
drifting cloud
yeah and theres 1 chest that is more than 400 dps upgrade
and its still worse than vex
quasi pewter
just save for goraks or roll for m+ pieces
cobalt pelican
goraks is like.. significantly better than the dps indicated in droptimizer once you move np around to maut helm or something
and it's also the only piece you'll keep
on your gear
idk do whatever you want dud it's a free world
roll 445 pieces and get them all
honest needle
i have them at 445
but in my situation we have maut on farm should i rooll chest shoulders or save for specific shoulders
what would u do personally ?
cobalt pelican
if you care about your guilds end raid progress i'd probably save for goraks specific since you'll likely buy them around ilgynoth or something
if you don't then i mean, idk, whatever
honest needle
ight ill save
ashen urchin
seems a lot of rogues using BotE again. it still sims lower for me atm but does it just work out better for fights?
cobalt pelican
it's a tossup between bote and clf simming better depending on gear and stats if you're not playing wv
drifting cloud
yo dont forget breath
atleast for me they were all within like 0.5% or even less
so I just stick to bote
cobalt pelican
i kinda neglect to even put breath in my sim as a major tbh
ashen urchin
i hadnt realized it was even in the running except on like drest
harsh anchor
A 300 dps increase for taking a SoB over a NP isn't worth it long term, right - I'm not about to be okay with that :|}
Granted the ilvl of SoB helm is 480 and NP is 465 so, maybe idk
lone smelt
when its available after the on use cooldown is done
fading wigeon
Thank you! @lone smelt
tribal granite
what else could i do to match my raidbots dps aside from warcraft analyzer?
plush remnant
Whats the best way to sim for fights like drest and vexiona?
tribal marlin
Ok I found out something great boys
3xSS + 3xNP > Umbric.
Even alleria is kneeling the hell, I poped her with lust on a 4mask solo run, she started doing her shits, she died before I reach melee again xD
I actually seriously believe 5 mask SW is easy as assasination because of this
Like ... it was a 4 mask run, but I litterally used my 1st orb before umbric, and then I just came back to zone already completed to grab more memento because I had like 2 orb and 900+ sanity and only alleria remaining
plush remnant
What pathing do you do in SW?
tribal marlin
I did dwarve => Shaw => tp => trade => mage
but I miss a lust here so I dunno maybe there exists a better pathing
tribal marlin
I almost killed it only with dots
pretty sure he just die with dots if I lust him
you did 5 mask scarfdeath ?
solar temple
Do demon hunters increase the nature damage we deal? from like poisons and envenom?
tribal marlin
dunno
I'm starting to believe that SW is easier for assa
because of cheesing alleria/umbric/shaw with 3xNP/3xSS mastery build
chilly marsh
well true
tribal marlin
I used my 3xEB/2xSS build for trash and then just swapped for bosses
chilly marsh
might really farm gearfor it
tribal marlin
well I just swapped my usual raid gear with DD to NP/SS
and still had my M+ gear for trashs
patent topaz
I spec switch to assa on umbric + alleria
but its mostly my STraid spec gear
with clf for interrupting umbric
patent topaz
yea
patent topaz
I got lucky once and bursted him while he was casting missiles and he died to dots on 1st teleport but that was 0 masks
tribal marlin
I really think he can die only from opener + dots if I lust it, cloaking its 1st cast to get 1 or 2 envenom more
patent topaz
I almost got fucked on alleria, my pc froze and I ate the explosion which is giga sanity with the mask
chilly marsh
yea
patent topaz
I go from left to right
patent topaz
got the last 2 masks so im going 4 mask during the weekend
tribal marlin
might not always be there but it worth to check it first
patent topaz
umbric with the slow debuff and alleria are annoying as fuck
drifting cloud
next week you need 1
tribal marlin
nest is 1
patent topaz
ill do one 4 mask and call it for the week I think
chilly marsh
with 50% i did 3 easy
tribal marlin
I fear rexxar a lot
chilly marsh
with 65% could prob do 4
patent topaz
ill do all masks but the 50% one
chilly marsh
rexxar you burst him
drowsy snow
The cloak sheet as been right so far. Not sure why it would change to 5 randomly
chilly marsh
and cloc first boar cast
tribal marlin
well I shouldn't fear it anymore now that I have the cheat death I probably can cheese him the same way of umbric with just killing him with dots but ...
patent topaz
going to get some sanity food and try 5 mask next week
tribal marlin
still a nasty boss
chilly marsh
kill him before more boar casts @_@
patent topaz
I just slow play rexxar and kill / interrupt boars. Pretty safe
learned that the hard way on my guardian druid
tribal marlin
problem are the bump into personnality split
tribal marlin
xD
chilly marsh
use it anr melts boss
patent topaz
I could go for font, just wasnt necessary on a 2 mask
chilly marsh
dont like font you wast a lot of time casting it
patent topaz
65% cloak is giga
tribal marlin
ye
chilly marsh
visions is more about quick burn
tribal marlin
5 masks are much easier than it was last week
I'm pretty sure I can do it this week
patent topaz
avoiding x4 sanity nukes drains the most
I dont have any more vessels and 8500 coalesced thingies
chilly marsh
i had a run with many good pots
patent topaz
so idk
chilly marsh
pots rng is huge too
tribal marlin
like really nothing was scary
well I got lucky with Gift maybe
I had it for most elites
patent topaz
I did 2 mask with 65% cloak and the first orb I used was before umbric who was my last boss. And that was just safety because I had 60% sanity left still
tribal marlin
ye same for me with the 4 mask run actually
patent topaz
couple of sanity pots, maybe 3-4
tribal marlin
I got unlucky with theim even
my dps on alleria
with 10% dmg buff and 7% versa buff
she litterally melted while I was chilling behind pillar
patent topaz
I had 27k, didnt have cds up from killing umbric and then I got fucked by the freeze and was tilted
my uptime was like 40%
patent topaz
when I tried to drag her towards me she started casting poly in fire traps
tribal marlin
even without the SS/NP cheese they die from dots
patent topaz
shie died to dots / clf
maiden raptor
To purify or not to purify EV r2 for 1,4k st dps increase 
patent topaz
but I was annoyed
tribal marlin
xD I kept my EV pieces "just in case they revert"
strange python
Dd np cheese?
patent topaz
think I have 5 ev on 3 chars now
maiden raptor
idk i doubt they'll revert it but still
patent topaz
from my experience it has never done more than 4% of my damage
havent used it in m+ though, just ST raid
tribal marlin
@strange python Swap your gear to a 3xSS/3xNP for alleria/umbric and it just melt while you chillin dodging shit
maiden raptor
btw can TD procc from dot ticks?
tribal marlin
I wich caparace dagger will drop FAST
patent topaz
it was like 10% of my damage on her
maiden raptor
@tribal marlin same here
strange python
Ty @tribal marlin
tribal marlin
well I dont have warlock so I just bench ...
but since I really need that dagger and might do nzoth I hope they will give me a spot for 2nd kill
patent topaz
My raid team is a bunch of guys that mainly play classic and cancel raids in favor of classic. So we raid like once per week
maiden raptor
what's RP?
patent topaz
we are at 10/12 because we never actually raid
maiden raptor
i should've known that
tribal marlin
like insane dmg
patent topaz
fuming
maiden raptor
You both raid mythic?
patent topaz
from CE to a shitter, the tale of BFA
tribal marlin
xD find a new guild (me yes @maiden raptor )
patent topaz
cant even get a guild group for m+ let alone mythic
maiden raptor
@tribal marlin well got some tips for not losing much dps between bursts? i sim for like 60-62k and in my burst phase that maybe right. Yet i stll only pull off 56k on ra-den on my last kill
tribal marlin
dunno seems fine with all the displacement
maiden raptor
well hero ra-den that is
tribal marlin
pooling energy before doing envenom while outside of TB/Vendetta if you don't already do that can make you get a bit more dmg overall
maiden raptor
you do that to get the most out of EP right?
tribal marlin
to get the most of DD to be exact
sage coral
This pinned sentence for blood of the enemy is hard to understand, as someone who is playing with a german client and new to the rogue class: "For ST with MA and BotE use Blood into Vanish+Finisher after TB within Vendetta
For AoE, It provides more EB"
I've basically have to check another guide where i can see all the names of the abilities and talents (MA, TB, EB).
tribal marlin
basically, if your 2 next finishers are Envenom then Rupture
maiden raptor
Master assasin, toxic blade and echoing blades
drowsy snow
Yes, you should read the class guide first?
tribal marlin
if you pool energy before doing that envenom, you will be able to fit 4 mutilate inside Envenom buff.
If you do that consistantly it's a noticable gain over the course of a fight, this is relevant only outisde of TB/Vendetta buf, during theese you don't pool energy.
maiden raptor
but u do pool energy when tb is coming up right?
sage coral
@drowsy snow i've read a guide but i needed some information about blood of the enemy use ... thank you all ;)
tribal marlin
if you pool energy before doing enevenom outisde of TB windows. You don't need to manage energy for TB, you will naturally pool energy for that.
maiden raptor
@sage coral i could explain it to you in german but not here
well i never thought about pooling energy before env tbh but i think that's something i can improve on
thanks
tribal marlin
Well basically you get to 4+ cp and pool energy before doing envenom
after your envenom, you quickly get back to 4cp and pool again etc... This ensure you that, when you refresh rupture, you will fit all mutilate inside envenom buff and this way you take the best of DD azerite trait 🙂
maiden raptor
okay and how much energy do you normally pool. i used to pool until i'm at like 3/4 of full energy
tribal marlin
ye it's something like that
just make sure you don't overcap energy
around 120-130 I guess
higher you might overcap energy with poisoned bleed/natural regen
tribal marlin
well I hope it will reflect on your parses !
maiden raptor
gonna see that next id
tribal marlin
If you want, the idea is to not waste ressources
overcapping energy is a waste obviously, but using Mutilate out of Env / EP / TB etc... windows is also a waste.
so when you are down of all this buff, you just spend the minimum amount of energy so you dont waste energy.
patent topaz
mostly people make the mistake of pressing buttons too much, you dont lose anything if you dont press mutilate as soon as you get the energy for it
tribal marlin
This is why Assa is so good in raid
maiden raptor
so basically patience is key
tribal marlin
Pooling is part of your dps cycle. During an encounter you can pool while dealing with mechanics, so that if you play it correctly you don't loose too many dps while dealing with mecanics
maiden raptor
Yea playing sin is hella fun in raids. Still kinda struggle in m+ tho. But i guess my gear plays a huge role in that
storm perch
what are some good tips for caparace of n'zoth being as assa? should i get some eb traits? or it's just pure st, no matter the adds?
zenith wren
Well do you want irrelevant numbers and lower boss damage, or good boss damage and mediocre add damage
storm perch
where do you even find EB traits , azerite casino?
@potent raft found some for titan residuum.
I would like to ask the same question, are there any other ways to get them?
potent raft
i have leftover 450 from previous tier but i'd rather go 480 outlaw than 450 eb sin 😦 saving up for GT shoulders so no casino for EB in sight
storm perch
at mythic+ tab from wowhead guide, there are three dungeons with azerite pieces with eb/ss
patent topaz
the answer is still residuum lottery
night vale
i just spent my first 2 weeks residuum on buying the 900 cost pieces so i had 3xEB 3xSS @ 465\
it perfectly fine even with 450s though if that all you can afford atm
tacit wing
Residuum is only way I believe cos you can't get azerite pieces from m+
Someone said there was a PvP drop
storm perch
did 15+ key every week?
tacit wing
Ah ok
storm perch
is it possible to get azerite piece from weekly chest?
tacit wing
I got super lucky and got 3 ss/eb pieces this week from residuum
night vale
@storm perch nope just residuum
potent raft
but 3x 450 as sin is probably worse than a decent outlul 3x 480 build, no?
patent topaz
no azerite in cache since residuum has been added
faint harness
Not to mention that raid pieces have good outlaw traits
But its always been easier to gear
patent topaz
outlaw azerite is definitely easier to get this patch
onyx hedge
Accidentally pressed pass on a GW peice....
night vale
yeah i mean idk, i just main sin, i was running 3x450 for the first week and was fine.
Im running this now and im pumping atm
scarlet sequoia
dmg just stacks
night vale
Shoulders are really easy to get EB SS on, cause i think theirs 3/4 EB SS shoulders
night vale
well, they added the mechagon EB/SS shoulders to the loot table now, so 3 chances for good m+ shoulders :D
So hopefully you'll get them soon 🙂
night vale
i didnt mind gambling the 460 pieces, having full EB SS at 460 would still be giga
I rolled 6 sanguine monstrostity shoulders in a row last season.... waiting 2 weeks to roll each one
xD
potent raft
oof
too bad dslice sim is unreliable
wish i could gear-compare my outlaw set vs 465 sin
worldly ledge
Hello. Guys, what do u think about 3dd 3np with VoP in major slot? Does anybody tried that before?
And I am speaking about ST fights, not M+.
night vale
I've not tried it personally, you'd have to sim it.
VoP tends to be not great cause it desyncs vendetta and vanish.
But as always, try simming it
and VoP is good on Wrathion cause of the way the phases line up
vestal wren
it still desyncs on wrathion what makes it questionable if the benefit is there
night vale
@vestal wren just mean you can vendetta on CD and then line it back up with vanish on 3 mins when the intermission bit ends
or thats what i do anyway
vestal wren
you mean when running subterfuge only?
as ma sync is quite powerfull and you forgot to specify that you refer to running with subterfuge to reduce the impact of desync
but then again, majority is running ma
ancient cradle
worldvein resonance actually sims higher than anything i have by like 1.5k
but the range is so short it never feels like its actually as good as lets say focusing iris in a boss fight
or maybe im just bad at using it?
faint harness
@vestal wren You dont lose out on any vanish/vendetta combos
you just gain a vendetta
storm perch
bote can outshine wv
faint harness
cus of the intermission
you cant use vanish before intermission anyway
it comes up mid intermission
and vendetta is back up when he lands
storm perch
but it's all depends on boss fight
faint harness
voila
night vale
TRUE, all lines up super nicely on wrathion mythic
storm perch
someone said wv for dog is great one
ancient cradle
also what's the recommended corruption level i should be at?
storm perch
39
faint harness
39-59 is fine
vestal wren
depends on the fight
faint harness
depending on boss
storm perch
but it's all up to you
i've seen ppl with 80
and they were ok
not sure about healers)
ancient cradle
was watching pikaboo run 101 corruption last night just to get 3x tentacles was pretty funny
i try to be below 40
was wondering if i shouldn't worry about it as much
vestal wren
corruption ressistance helps
ancient cradle
but yeah
faint harness
i go above 39 on some fights
i stay below 39 on drestagath mythic and.. thats about it
i think
vexiona too
night vale
i just run below 40 in raids and m+ to be fair
If i had better corrupted gear id maybe consider going about, but its not worth for the gear i have
faint harness
i can run t4 tentacle and be at 58 corruption
vestal wren
lego cloak helps a lot when dealing with higher corruption
i saw a lot of ppl forget they got the use effect
faint harness
any fights with constant ticking dmg (except for dog boss) is scary
scarlet sequoia
u can easily run 59 in m+
night vale
yeah, i mean for me the thing from beyond gets the headlines, but the slow is the thing that messes me up on higher corruption
scarlet sequoia
considering u can avoid 90% of dmg
faint harness
havent found a good way to deal with thing from beyond yet
ancient cradle
5 days for bonus bg event
faint harness
just eating it
ancient cradle
guess im ranking up bote
night vale
yeah agreed, on higher corruption it makes you even slower though right?
faint harness
yea
ancient cradle
unless you make a blind macro for thing from below
faint harness
someone said you cant macro it
storm perch
throw a knife on thing from beyond)
faint harness
waste of dps throwing knives
ancient cradle
i step kidneyed thing once but idk if it was because of ping that i could do that
because havent been able to do it again yet
only tried a couple times
storm perch
if nothing bad happens - just absorb it)
faint harness
stepping AND kidney is a yuge dps loss
ancient cradle
yeah definitely not encouraging step kidney
just curious on how it actually works
ancient cradle
i feel like ping really changes when it hits you
storm perch
if you got asmongold WA on thing from beyond - you never miss it))
night vale
hitbox is so janky on it
ancient cradle
i'm on 33 corruption atm and my only other corrupted gear is +35 minimum
storm perch
sometimes it's scary asf
ancient cradle
and i really dont want to sit at 68 corruption
night vale
well i wouldnt go about 40 for progress raiding. Id consider it for farm content if i had better pieces
but im an average player and if i could actually click thing from beoynd and blind it, maybe id have a different opinion xD
ancient cradle
idk i dont feel like 40-50 corruption is even that bad, thing doesn't proc as often and it's only an extra 120k healers have to deal with
plus yeah you can blind on cd
i feel like it gets horrible after 50 though
night vale
there's not a lot in it tbh, run Blood if you want, plus, it may even be better on certain fight lengths were you could squeeze in a blood but not another CLF
onyx hedge
ye
grand hamlet
How does that stacking of Twisted Appendage work for you?
Is that two seperate Appandages spawning or is it just an added chance or dmg?
dark crag
Fun is drestagath prog with melees + 1 heal in tentacle radius and ranges dying to thing from beyond
onyx hedge
sec mid vex
young portal
@grand hamlet I believe it's the damage that's increased, not the proc rate
potent raft
currently i run 53 corruption for most encounters, sub 39 for initial progress on a boss to not burden healers too much til we get our mechanics right, then back at balls deep mode
grand hamlet
Alright, so it's like I + II
storm perch
I would sim myself: if 40+ corruption does not give me a strong DPS output (2-3k difference), then what's the point of wearing so much?
even if you are a master of cc on thing from beyond
potent raft
the thing is, you don't care for most of the things from beyond
you dont have to prevent even half of them (in my experience)
and when you are in danger you can CoS , lego cloak or blind
works out fine most of the time. I haven't died from thing from beyond (or it's damage with combination from something else) yet
(cheat death also helps)
running with 53 corruption , the eye and slow are more annoying
grand hamlet
I got 56 corruption and it's uncommon to die from the corruption related stuff.
One time though where I thought that "hmm... I might lower it for this fight" is the transition from phase 1 -> 2 för Ra-Den (heroic), where I got dmg from something, got slowed, thing from beyond and couldn't move from the purple shit on the floor, felt like a one-shot.
I might have thought "CLOAK!" but I was to slow on the button or it was on CD, can't remember.
potent raft
oh yea, CoS is the ultimate "oh shit" button 😄
frigid briar
Try doing M Ilgynoth with 40+ corruption. Its a pain in the ass if 20 people running from delusions and slows. Even the eyes of corruption . Cant cloak or raid dies either
lethal heart
if someone is playing more than 40 corruption on mythic ilgynoth he's griefing
if he's non tank
frigid briar
We wiped last night when our tank for 3 in a row when beam came.
Honestly from what we have experienced. Ever going over 39 corruption just doesnt make much of a difference. Week 1 or 2 sure to get damage checks but with the gear now. It just seems like the risk outweighs the reward
grand hamlet
I can understand that in mythic.
That reminds me; I felt that hc is much easier than before. I wonder if it has to do with the tunning of corruption and being able to take the risk with higher corruption in hc.
Gz 👍
onyx hedge
ye
dark crag
I have 2 475 with socket, 1 hc carapace and traded 1 hc carapace away
But my tentacles won't spawn
lethal heart
@frigid briar i think that seeing 'grand delusion' in death log is just beyond embarassing
and at least for us it happened 2-3 times where someone memed his way to death with grand delusion in last phase of ilgynoth
which is wasting ~8-9 minutes
on a good pull
oblique smelt
Let's say im in this situation: I have just cast envenom. I refresh garrote, Mutilate, it generates 4 CP i am now on 5 CP, TB is off cooldown, should i cast TB > Envenom or Envenom > TB > Mutilate > Envenom
basically what's worse for dps, holding TB for a couple seconds or wasting 1-2 CP
I have 3 double dose traits, playing MA and Elaborate Planning
night vale
@oblique smelt i cast TB when at 5 CP if in that situation. I remember looking a while back and the SimC APL will do the same if in that situation
could have changed since i looked tho
oblique smelt
Yea i was just looking at wowanalyzer to see if i was doing anything wrong
and i wasted like 2-3 CP on Maut and it put that as major
which can only be that i have been casting at 5CP because that's just always what i have done
Just looking at the guide since it got updated: It is also fine to cast Toxic Blade while you are already at maximum combo points.
So guess wowanalyzer is just a bit too "DONT WASTE STUFF REEE"
rigid mango
WowA isn't kept up to date by anyone on the rogue side and should probs be ignored for a lot of help @oblique smelt
if you need log help, feel free to drop it here/my dms and someone/me will help.
oblique smelt
Ah good to know
I don't think im doing too much stuff wrong, i'm a bit behind our other rogue (i'm also raidleading should be noted) - I didn't have a NP trait on our Maut kill (got it as a drop) But if someone sees something i'm doing massively wrong feel free to let me know https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hjqHKYCL14FNBk9p#type=damage-done&fight=14
rigid mango
Your opener is a bit off but nothing major
oblique smelt
Yea i just noticed that it got changed, gonna work on it in the weekend
night vale
anyone tried a 5 mask solo run of Stormwind as Assassination? If so how did you find it, i feel like Org would be waaaay easier
warm parcel
what is there to feint on maut
oblique smelt
i just pop it running in to a pool on pure instinct