honestly next week I might go back to fonting at 15 on pull timer so font is up for first delirium >.>
#assassination
deep solstice
rigid mango
deep solstice
Fire mage opener ftw
polar crater
why do most logs tb after vanish rather than before so u can get 2 envenoms in the ma window?
polar crater
really?
deep solstice
it's probably just sever lag on the timer. People TB and immediately vanish
ideally you'd want to TB then vanish just before the GCD cooldown is up,.....but very minor difference
polar crater
rerolling to rogue and was wonderingt why i cant get above purples, thats a good reason then
deep solstice
Well if he is TB after vanish that is actually a massive dps loss
polar crater
its missing the last envenom in the MA window
deep solstice
ya
deep solstice
It murders your opener, and vanish CD dps
deep solstice
I am starting to think Zine is here literally just to troll
rigid mango
You have litearlly
ashen solar
polar crater
oof
deep solstice
Tell that to my logs
quasi pewter
rigid mango
But you don't know what you're talking about
deep solstice
Saying fucking up the burst phase our spec is built around is not a big dps loss is hilarous
rigid mango
But correct
deep solstice
just look me up, Metzlì-Stormragte
rigid mango
Like
You think pooling matters more than it does
You think that matters moer than it does
quasi pewter
we used to vanish tb mut env back in BoD and im pretty sure it was actually bbetter back then
deep solstice
No I was against pooling
rigid mango
But it really doesn't
quasi pewter
it cant have changed THAT much
rigid mango
both are v insignificant
deep solstice
Well according to you literally nothing in the rotation matters
rigid mango
No.
quasi pewter
you said it murders ur opener
rigid mango
According to me small rotational changes are a minor loss
hidden bay
what is that opener @deep solstice https://gyazo.com/e2cbc2ca2bf3094e5ef9eb234913b90f
rigid mango
that's not noticable
quasi pewter
how does it murder ur opener
shy dust
deep solstice
ya I have been fucking my opener up for a while . Kinda illustrates zine's point. good logs with a shit opener
rigid mango
Exactly.
quasi pewter
quasi pewter
but
rigid mango
are you a living example
quasi pewter
ur logs arent good tho
rigid mango
of my point
shy dust
When something is such a minimal gain or loss it doesnt matter that much
quasi pewter
pretty avg imo
shy dust
which is what TB in vanish is
and constantly messing up the opener when you say "Look at my logs" is ayikes.
deep solstice
because he is acting like I am a gray parser who is completely lost in the sauce. Not because I am especially great this tier
rigid mango
No
I'm acting like you don't understand the TC behind it
I said you're probs good
Doesn't mean you understand the logic behind it
Nor how much of a diff thigns are
deep solstice
The logic is a Second near guarenteed crit is a lot more damage than a crit TB and 1 envenom
rigid mango
And the diff is still
shy dust
and what if you get 3 CP from your MUT?
rigid mango
Very small.
shy dust
its not a noticable difference dude
deep solstice
If you get 3 CP you just dont envenom a second time. It is very noticible on shorter fights. Longer it averages out.
one of the reasons BB procs are such a massive change in our opener dps. They virtually guarentee 4 CP from the MA mutilate
deep solstice
And we have 5 different things that are individually negligible, but add up to a few % dps. Everyone is too sad about the RNG meta to worry about actually optimizing the rotation
quasi pewter
you literally said it murders his opener
when you've been murdering ur opener for god knows how long urself consciously
deep solstice
it removes the possibility for him to have an amazing opener.
civic palm
❌
rigid mango
It doens't
deep solstice
the same way I have been wasting a vendetta GCD for a long time
civic palm
NOTICABLE DIFFERENCES.
Either way, math it out otherwise it's just your idea of it being better.
If you are unwilling to do that then post a synopsis of what you feel is more optimal play in #tc-research and see if someone is willing to do the changes for you.
So we can see whether or not your ideas hold water over 10k iterations.
ashen solar
He doesnt know the correct opener as his logs show
Dont expect him to math it properly
civic palm
That's why I gave him the option to let someone better at it do it for him.
ashen solar
b
deep solstice
I have literally been arguing to use the currently implemented build against people who are saying it doesnt matter if you deviate from it, regardless of errors in my personal play
civic palm
That's nice but no one here is going to do the math to prove you wrong since you didn't do the math to prove yourself right.
civic palm
The TCer's will do the math if they feel there could be a marginal improvement with the trait.
rigid mango
I'm saying you think it's worth a lot more than it is
It's not nothing
It's just a lot less than you think it is.
civic palm
Do make sure to present your findings in such a way that could actually interest them though otherwise you will continue to spin your wheels.
deep solstice
I dont think it's a lot. A few tenths of a percent for each thing. But several tenths of a percent add up.
rigid mango
The way you worded it seemed a lot diff.
deep solstice
Top players literally regem/enchant for 30 dps gain if the sim says they should. That's not even a tenth
rigid mango
What has that got to do with it?
civic palm
A few tenths isn't worth your time, and gems will push you over 1% differences.
If they are regemming for less they're also wasting their time.
deep solstice
Ya, not having gems at all will, but the difference in crit vs haste gems is not that significant
but no one questions the importance of that
civic palm
There are substantial differences to be had in regards to whether or not a fight makes better use of long bleeds, or short terms of burst.
civic palm
or whether or not a fight has a periods of modified damage.
and yeah, not all of them SIM and not all of them know what they are doing.
deep solstice
When I say top I generally mean parsers. I have watched enough streams to know that a lot of players in top guilds are bad rotationally.
subtle kiln
Yet, they’re in a top guild
deep solstice
because mechanics and consistancy matter more than orange logs
subtle kiln
So consistently bad rotationally?
deep solstice
As in even if they are fucking up they are consistantly at the bar they need to meet for their prog
rigid mango
I don't know of a lot of top rogues that are really that bad.
arctic walrus
Tune in next tier for us 2nd prog bad rotation 
quasi pewter
what is a top guild here?
quasi pewter
i dont know of anyone in top 20 guild thats not playing close to optimally
deep solstice
this tier you have to basically be afk to make a big enough error to really gib your rotation, as you have been saying zine
quasi pewter
at least rotationally
quasi pewter
civic palm
Vel clearly poop, hasn't even played Rogue for a decade @arctic walrus
rigid mango
You're valuing these mistakes way too highly.
subtle kiln
Do folks just not want to hear that assn is forgiving?
rigid mango
Repeatidly playing suboptimally in raid will show
Assa is simple to manage
And simple to play during prog
Sure, adds some complexity on multi target
subtle kiln
not hard to spec swap to outlaw
rigid mango
But I don't think any of the players I would count as "top players" play anything but as optimal as they can.
And succeed.
Because it's not hard not to press CLF within vend and TB.
cobalt pelican
it is if you're me
subtle kiln
Me too
rigid mango
but even doing that, you can log well because of how crit rng and kill timers are a thing.
subtle kiln
Progression logs are the best logs
tropic ocean
tl:dr
it doesn't matter how good or bad you log to come up with correct statements about what is an improvement or not
and the other way around too
theres plenty of top tier players not following "logic" and rather play feels you can see it regularly in high keys for example
rigid mango
Can you not re-ignite this conversation.
quasi pewter
ashen solar
Did any of you test sin on the raid in the recent ptr
How did it feel
Havent been active in raiding since mop so want to get back into it 
tropic ocean
for me it feels good
quasi pewter
some fights good some it feels like outlaw but idk
im just clowning around on ptr tests
quartz fox
how do u use razor coral in st fights? do u just press it in opener then re activate for 2nd vendetta?
rigid mango
Pins
dark crag
strange python
Upheavel - Shadowstep to racing flag. Can we dodge it?
sand whale
UR?
strange python
TD
sand whale
never worked when I tried before I could just be bad lol see what the pro sin rogues say
strange python
I was able to successfully execute the Storm elemental skip in shrine so dodging TD boss is my next goal.
mighty crown
im pretty sure its possible, but it is a SUPER precise timing
tough fable
you can for sure dodge it
strange python
I mean if outlaw rogues can dodge that easily, we should be able to dodge as well 🙂
inner sonnet
Outlaw is easier because GH moves you over a gcd, so there’s a larger window for the boss to upheaval and miss.
Shadowstep you’d have to time it to the millisecond and risk killing the person you step to on high keys
Also, storm ele skip in shrine is super easy as long as you kill the mini boss before it to be able to LoS, just run and vanish when it casts storm
gusty kestrel
u dont have to kill the mini boss and its still easy :p
worldly fable
!Essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
wanton bolt
should i stick to inkpod at azshara (dont have font) or shall i take spyglass (my only other trinket)
fleet slate
any recommendations on trinkets for Mythic +10 and higher?
tropic ocean
from m+ solely
spy glass from boralus
dice from freehold
or the trinket from motherlode if it forges/sockets
hasty fiber
from raids prob font coral or inkpod coral
left peak
Hey guys feel free to bump this or whatever if not allowed but i was wondering if you guys could look at my https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cPEHnEQNJbRQsjkTTxisAV ive been getting gear but my dps stays between 20k-25k with most of the damage being the azerite beam i know my rotation is probably why im performing so low but i wanted to see if you guys could pry at my toon be brutual! i can't learn if you give it to me nicely lol thanks
arctic walrus
switch cuz worldvein suck
Also you need to go and get higher ranks of crucible
This should be your damage on a dummy, so yes rotationally you could use some work. Quick sim will show you a breakdown of rotation if you need help
left peak
@arctic walrus thanks for taking a look! i will defintely try out the quick sim to see what it shows and ill see what i need to do to get a higher crucible!
arctic walrus
Go to that heart chamber in silithus and you should have a quest there
rank 2 is at 54, rank 3 at 60
left peak
oh my heart is already at 60 wow thanks for the quick tip!
hopefully i see improvement
arctic walrus
Once you get rank 3 flame, put it in your major
left peak
@arctic walrus oh thanks! did they recently update the quick sim to show that? yeah i didnt know you get 4 combo points if you mutilate out of stealth or vanish yeah i defintely want to hit the target dummy but dang you already gave me a awesome tool !
arctic walrus
- Didn't pop coral with 2nd set of cds
- Slight overcap with mut/gar (aim for 0 you had 2)
- Pool slightly higher for TB windows, you go in basically starving
- Biggest thing you do is TB->Mut instead of TB->Env
Depending on luck, this can chance you out of a whole envenom outside of TB window
eager river
yea the pooling thing is weird to me still, whats a good number to shoot for or how many seconds before its off cd should i pool i guess? and its better to tb with no/low cp then?
and coral not being popped with cds is just my outlaw brain lining it up for ink still
also 
fuckin discord didnt delay those messages this time
arctic walrus
It's minimal but a good habit to get into, maybe like 50-75 as a baseline before each tb
crude cargo
My understanding is you pool energy unless you're gonna cap it / need to refresh bleeds
arctic walrus
and no, so for tb you basically hold on to 4/5 cp (without capping) rather than expend your env then tb
and if you're at 4/5, you can tb just fine
the cp wasted is fine
arctic walrus
Ty
steep dome
my apologies for askiing this but im new to rogue and bad at maths, what are the pandemic times for garrote and rupture when it's safe to refresh?
arctic walrus
Just get a weak aura that highlights when either are inside their ranges
It’s 5.4 for garrote, and 7.2 for a 5 cp rupture
steep dome
any in particular that you would suggest?
fallow otter
! Wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
fallow otter
I personally use afenar slightly edited
steep dome
tyvm
fallow otter
Anyone got pink parse for org?
tropic ocean
as of right now u wont get a pink parse without playing pad build and having roster with lower add dmg
aka your guild needs to either let you log or just dont have good cleave dps
fallow otter
Ill settle for purple tho
You're right though I think it has more to do with most of the raid cleaving
fallow otter
Need to spawn extra summoners on zaq probably
arctic walrus
zaq parses nowadays are moreso concerned with 1 echo phase, and getting high delirium uptime
Or u can just pad with pp on adds
fallow otter
Yeh that's what I do atm
tropic ocean
Nah
For zaq 99 u can just go multiple delirium pp minor and do burnstrat
no need for eb or more summoners
arctic walrus
wow so what I said das crazy
fallow otter
Maybe this is the week we don't have carries can do burn
tropic ocean
with longer kill you have more aoe as well so
Unless you need to go in both echoes should be fine
wary thicket
does someone care to check out my parses from my raid tonight and tell me what i can do to improve?
arctic walrus
Ye
wanton bolt
If somebody would be so kind to look at this and tell me if its my gear or Rotation that needs to improve and what? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/3tWK4rBPMkZhvd2C#fight=21&type=damage-done&source=18
inner sonnet
well, for one, the aberration dmg waistband is only really ideal against Orgo & Za'Qul
gonna assume you've simmed better with vers gems.... and that's why you have more vers than haste
also, a simple one is maximise your good casts in you MA window, you only had 2 after your first vanish for example
brisk frost
you get way more dmg out from bote if you use it on pull, 2nd hulk, devoted adds and ward add. also you're using bote at 6:40 which means it wont be up with detta if you lust when p4 starts
wanton bolt
I get your first and second hint but whats that about the Vers thing? There was a time i simmed better with vers gems but low im back at 2x crit 2x haste
brisk frost
you also seems to have quite low uptime/casts at p3, you can keep bleeds on boss, myrmi and ward add
wanton bolt
I did use bote like you mentioned in all Tries except for 6:40 which is indeed bad
I did not put casts on anything other Than the naga adds because we barely Manage to get them Down before shield up
inner sonnet
ah, on the log you have 2 haste gems 3 vers
wanton bolt
Right i changed it After raid. So your point is i should never take vers when sim tells me its better?
inner sonnet
nah, wasn't really a point but haste/crit usually outweigh vers, BUT if you've simmed and such, you should probably follow the sims
wanton bolt
I dont know how to sim azshara anyway. Its not like i can Trust Patchwork 5 min
exotic rose
Does cloak immune the beam that divides the azshara encounter on mythic?
Shadowstep is safe I believe?
vapid pawn
@exotic rose yes and yes
exotic rose
thanks guys
lethal heart
inner sonnet
Does anyone know the % chances for DD to proc (with both muti's applying poison) inside/outside the Env window?
uneven summit
Do we have a build/setup guide/tips for Azshara Mythic and Assa play?
rigid mango
No.
Lucid never moves
If you have r3 blood it's better than clf
If not, stick to standard setup
uneven summit
aa i thought you were saying blood, condensed, iris equip, which threw me off
so yeah Blood + Memory + Iris then nothing changes
rigid mango
Yeah exactly
umbral folio
@lethal heart not double with envenom, 60% of 60% is 36%)
oblique moon
It’s 64% within window and 9% outside right?
quiet forge
Hey guys why is Cephalohide Jacket chest bis (DoubleD and TtK) and not some DD + NP chest for example?
rigid mango
It's BiS outside of 4 loyal blackwater chest
brisk frost
Behemoth chest is bis, cepha is 2nd
rigid mango
It'll probably be BiS come next tier when people start dropping their loyal pieces
As a piece from this tier
Might not be BiS in the end, though.
quiet forge
I mean if Im not mythic raiding regularly this tier and im not in any mythic guild atm I probably wouldnt want loyal to the end right?
rigid mango
Then cepha will probs be BiS yeah.
quiet forge
Alright thank you
unborn rampart
Why those essence swaps for Azshara?
rigid mango
Because bote gives the damage when you need it
And strife since you're changing targets in p3 (aka only actual phase) and you also lose value of haste by multi dotting
rigid mango
Zaq is bote + lucid + vop if you're doing echoes
Not a sin question
-> #wow-general
wanton bolt
another question for azshara i asked yesterday but got no answer to. i assume inkpod is trash tier in this encounter so can spyglass/harlems be better?
wanton bolt
until p3 it really does any dmg compared to the overall dmg of my assa comrade with font
rigid mango
Inkpod popping there is really good
wanton bolt
we arent at p4 yet :C
rigid mango
Still no reason not to play for it
wanton bolt
shall i apply the same rules for outlaw in like popping coral at 31% with adds?
or shall i only cast it on azshara until p4
uncut burrow
Think coral use is in pins
wanton bolt
but not in conjunction with inkpod i thought i could be different then
wanton bolt
kk thx for your time
glacial flare
Hello. Anyone here with xp on Azshara mythic ? We're having some problems on the transition from P2.
rigid mango
doesn't sound entirely sin related, but sup?
glacial flare
well, here's the log from one of our tries
we only have 1 lock and 1 pala
so the transition is being PIA
i think we scatter the devoted too much to be effective tbh but
we seem to come out on par with others
glacial flare
i do but ive been asked to go more ST and so ive been using CLF+Lucid+Strife
yeah, what im wearing atm is what raidbots sims higher : https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/eu/argent-dawn/kenshyn
glacial flare
ive also tried with font.
the problem is, we're having issues that i find hard to understand to meet the dps check in order to avoid the indomitable
this is the last one i did https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bkBzxEKD22sdWcJbS4Tjuf
rigid mango
Font is for sure better for that
ashen solar
your fire mage is a bit questionable
glacial flare
how so @ashen solar , can you elaborate ?
ashen solar
yeah
pretty much
even when you put it to before he died
he has like
0 dps for a fire mage
rigid mango
You should really not just sim 7 min for no reasno
glacial flare
well, i tried to find what were the better parameters to sim it but couldnt so, 7m patchwerk seemed like a fair enough approximation
rigid mango
Just sim 5 min
glacial flare
Ok.
Is there any particular timer in the transition we need to looking out for so that we dont get the indomitable ?
we're aiming at 68.5% but it seems you can prevent the indomitable add to spawn a bit before that percentage ?
ornate gazelle
It can be beneficial to sim different fight lengths based on what you're trying to figure out. If you wanna know if you're hitting your sim dps; sim according to whatever boss you're on. 5 min is just a baseline/average fight length.
@glacial flare You just want to be careful not to push the boss without Beckons being dealt with first. Or if you have the dps, beat the Beckon altogether.
glacial flare
Cheers guys, appreciate it 🙂
@rigid mango ive used bote+lucid+strife before and it did felt better tbh. Will take your recommendation to heart come next raid 🙂
rigid mango
You shouldn't take strife if it aint r3
glacial flare
yeah, ive got it this past weds(finally) 🙂
crystal vault
is there anything special why most top parses on azshara use c&s but not on the earlier bosses? For me it simm worse dont matter what gear etc i use
drifting cloud
target swapping in p3
vast forum
vers is also good when your hp pool is low entire fight
strange python
am i tripping or is wowanalyzer not picking up vanish casts
rigid mango
WowA sucks
strange python
best way to see why i suck as assass without wowanalyzer?
rigid mango
Link your logs here
rigid mango
You overcap CP with mut
aka you mutilated at 4+ CP
Which is when you should be finishing.
strange python
yeah, been watching that, adjusted my weak aura to screech at me if i hit 4 cp or higher
rigid mango
Your opener is wrong in all kinds of ways
I'd recommend looking at the opener in the rotations section in
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
arctic walrus
subterfuge with no SS traits, spend your energy, you're sitting above 100 so much of the fight
don't use blood minor, don't use lucid major, sim your shit in top gear
arctic walrus
not even full bleed uptime on a single target
should be 99%+
i doubt it, so resim
strange python
which fight? i know once or twice i got cucked
arctic walrus
or link your top gear here
strange python
and i died on fish
arctic walrus
sivara
strange python
oh that fight was a fucking disaster, people dropping shit everywhere. and we were all drunk
arctic walrus
not using toxic blade on cd
ashen solar
undulating tides isnt good either
strange python
yeah, i changed a piece out of undulating.... around court
or i got a piece around there, can't quite remember. i have no undulating anymore however
so opener, toxic blade, bleed uptime
arctic walrus
Still, every other flaw pointied out is evident throughtout every fight
strange python
toxic blade - use immediately, or should i hold for say 4cp then toxic blade envenom?
used to playing boomie, got bored since im overgeared and working this rogue - different than i am used to
ashen solar
you just always use it on cd
arctic walrus
You look at the cooldown and if it's soon gonna be up you should be sitting at 4/5 cp (it's fine to overcap points)
strange python
alright, ill watch my cp around that cd timing. id post my top gear thing but im not home to get to it
thanks much! hope to come back in a couple weeks much improved
unborn rampart
essences for m-za'qul?
rigid mango
Are you doing echoes?
arctic walrus
bote, lucid/strife (vision if you're doingdouble echos)
unborn rampart
ty
crisp hollow
regarding TB on cooldown, if I plan incorrectly, do I hold it to refresh bleeds or refresh bleeds during its duration
stark wasp
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > vers => mastery > haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
arctic walrus
You're fine to refresh bleeds at (pandemic + 2s) worth of time, before tb is off cd
crisp hollow
okay cool!
a big problem i’m finding is TB expiring with 1/2s left on bleeds and being out of energy
usually leads to dropping garrote because I value rupture higher
ashen solar
normally if you have to you would refresh bleeds before TB
strange python
is it normal to feel so energy starved on ST fights using m+'s stat weights?
rigid mango
Yes
strange python
I like the spec alot but i constantly feel so energy starved that i dont know if im doing something wrong.
strange python
i guess id probably take too large of a hit if i took a ST stat weight build into M+ wouldnt i.
arctic walrus
Your single target damage shouldn't largely be hindered in a m+ boss fight
rigid mango
You're more reliant on kill timer to get 2nd vend in there and kill right after
strange python
i wouldnt say its hindered i just feel like im pooling alot.
rigid mango
You should be
strange python
i guess thats weird to me, from other classes ive just gotten so used to having some sort of filler.
rigid mango
Sin is rather the opposite.
strange python
for m+ the 3x garrote trait is the way to go correct?
rigid mango
Shrouded suffocation, yeah.
strange python
think im something along the lines of 3x garrote, 1 envenom, 1 vendetta, one fan
rigid mango
As many EB (fan of knives) traits as you can whilst holding 3 SS is optimal
Essentially.
strange python
ah okay
rigid mango
Although in for example KR, I wouldn't run more than 1 EB.
You'd rather have 1 NP/TTK's
or bbi
strange python
Do you use crimson tempest on ST if u take it?
rigid mango
No
arctic walrus
no
strange python
night elf racial works with SS, right?
steep dome
to my understanding smeld will drop you out of combat allowing you to cast stealth in keys but wont work in raid
rigid mango
In a boss fight it'll grant shrouded suff if you meld > garrote
Even if you never stealth
not subterfuge, but just shrouded
rigid mango
Yeah bec SS is pretty meh for st 😄
steep dome
how much energy should one be pooling to before using finishers?
arctic walrus
Until you have to
If bleeds are active, look at your envenom buff uptime, and wait till the end of it before finishing
hollow bridge
also longer EP uptime is good too. things to note, during TB window, dont worry about clipping EP, just get as many 4-5 point Envenoms out
outside of TB window, the more you can spread out your EP/Envenom uptime the better, however you don't want to optimise that at the cost of better TB windows. IE, refreshing rupt and garrote before u go into TB window is better and then maximising Envenom in TB window will provide overall better dps than higher average uptime of EP or Envenom buff.
steep dome
thnx for the advice will keep it in mind
crystal vault
where can i check Envenom uptime, damage done envenom or debuffs?
arctic walrus
buffs
steep dome
apologies have another question, when ruptures about to run out do you refresh as soon as its in the pandemic window or is it better to pool energy when you have 5cps and let it run out before reapplying?
just so you have more energy during the EP window
vast forum
don't let it run out but you can pool during pandemic window
drifting cloud
you dont want it to run out
vast forum
and refresh at 0.01 if you feel like it 😛
drifting cloud
but how early you refresh doesnt matter as long as its in pandemic
or well I guess it mostly depends where your tb cd is
since you want 4-5 cps and as much energy as you can when you press tb
vast forum
well yea
but the question was more general
there's no benefit to reapplying rupture at different points within the pandemic window other than preparing better for your next TB
arctic walrus
@rigid mango pretty alright innit
drifting cloud
you cloak doesnt have a hole
arctic walrus
⭕
drifting cloud
oh I guess its the crit mast zaqul one
arctic walrus
wait it does haVE a hole
drifting cloud
❓
drifting cloud
arctic walrus
rigid mango
Vers 
arctic walrus
It’s either vers or Christmas tree for 12 dps
worthy moon
So
This is going to sound super duper dumb
But assuming your being brought in to trial on M Azshara.... And you don't have BotE... What essence would you major?
polar cape
condense
dark crag
It's critmas soon
haughty temple
When should I spec for CT (M+)?
fathom wyvern
think you normally play it now in any key unless you really need st dmg but i might be misstaken
edgy pawn
you can take it everywhere except for kings rest and temple of sethralis
haughty temple
Even on Tyrannical weeks?
edgy pawn
yes
haughty temple
Thanks!
haughty temple
It feels like PB accounts for such a small % of my overall dmg when I'm running it. Haven't even tried CT yet 😄
rigid mango
Add siege onto that list
edgy pawn
tall narwhal
From what i see its pretty bad both for outlaw and assa (m+) wise
honest iris
yes turban is garbo
tall narwhal
Maybe its any good for sub ? 🤔
edgy pawn
the worst sin piece in the game does probably more damage than the best sub gear
tall narwhal
well ive had pvp in mind but ye
trail scarab
is assa very gear dependant in m+?
tall narwhal
well as i understand it you should aim for 3ss and 3 eb traits
so i would say yeah it kinda is
but then again, which spec isnt ?
if you play outlaw in keyes with snake eyes and the other shitty trait
you won't do well either
trail scarab
alright, trying to make a rogue to play with some friends but i just dont understand outlaw for some reason. i feel assa is more comfy spec
edgy pawn
assa is way harder to get good azerites than as outlaw
distant lava
yep, outlaw you can go with the azerite from the first 3 bosses and do pretty good, mechagon hardmode helm is really good too.
as sin iirc you need 3 items from the vendor
crystal vault
Anyone tested ptr? What’s your thoughts, good fights for assa?
crystal notch
Guys, how do you manage going into stealth when tank is pull chaining. This is a serious issue if you go full SS
modest tendon
The tank should let you restealth
It’s his problem
You can sometimes hang back ye
But tank can’t repot by constant chain pulling
azure gate
is outlaw just objectively better in m+ than sin? Or are they both very competitive and it comes down to preference and gear?
candid anvil
i would say just objectively better
if you compare full bis equiped assa and outlaw, outlaw should deal more
can I ask, does mastery affect SS dmg?
magic fossil
we have any info about sin in 8.3 raid?
warm parcel
like what
magic fossil
good, bad, i saw we will have a lot of cleave, do u think sin rogue will be ok with that?
crystal notch
ranged is always better option for raiding
magic fossil
no, heavy friend with melee next raid pal
crystal notch
lol
warm parcel
First boss is just kill boss nothing else
Maut again kill boss nothing else
Prophet has some prio targets that need nuking, may like assas burst
Inquisitor again just kill boss
Hivemind is a meme of the tier, so kill boss
Wound poison might be okay
Dog yet again kill boss nothing else
Drestagath ins an interesting one. maybe well just sit boss
Vexiona again kill boss
Raden is just kill boss and cleave the adds
Ilgy is nice for assa cds for bursting prio
Carapace is up in the air imo and nzoth havent seen really
And what does assa do best? Kill boss
magic fossil
thank you mate, that was awesome.
cobalt pelican
i love killing the boss
magic fossil
yeap, i just don't like playing outlul and some ppl in my guild start trying to put ideas for me that sin would suck for next raid. Thank you so muc
rigid mango
Insanely consistant spec
cobalt pelican
at least in the current iteration of the game yeah, being able to refactor your damage how you choose is like
rigid mango
Unless there's a specific fight like orgo I see no reason to change
cobalt pelican
big++
warm parcel
But there is an argument for possibly using OL for carapace
Gotta see how mythic works after their small rework
And like if sub didnt just do subpar damage
It could see play as theres a lot of small adds that live for a very short period
None of which are instawipe deadly territory that need insane optimal nuking dps
cobalt pelican
10% damage buff to sub coming on heroic week balance pass frogger
warm parcel
And even then you can have DH swap to whatever small that spawns and obliterate it
soft bluff
Question: if you’re capped at 5 CP and toxic is up, do you just toxic and envenom or do you hold toxic?
soft bluff
Okay, thank you for clarifying!
rigid mango
heavy haven
how much stronger is frost dmg benthic wrist compared to pufferfish?
strange python
rigid mango
bigger in game though
nocturne gate
idk but i dont think that even ingame the difference is really noticable
strange python
it's completely irrelevant difference, no matter what content you play.
rigid mango
Myeh it normally does about 150% of puffer but that damage gain isn't a lot.
Still significant diff if you're talking % gain.
plush remnant
When is it good to run crimson tempest for m+?
rigid mango
When you're not in a kr/siege/tos tyr key
uncut burrow
I tried running CT for low keys (my group struggles on 13s) but it seemed to underperform. My guess is user error combined with small health pools vs actual power though. How aggressively should I use it?
cobalt pelican
you just.. keep it up?
uncut burrow
Eh, fair enough. I think I'm trying to overcomplicate it.
cobalt pelican
probably
in super low keys you won't really get to the point you're maintaining ct for prolonged periods of time but as long as the packs live long enough for it to run its course once the value doesn't change super drasticallly
it's just slightly worse as other things take priority in the opener
uncut burrow
Ah, gotcha. Makes sense.
iron plover
am I supposed to running purification protocol on za'qul ?
Raid leader has asked me to prioritize single target and make sure that the echo dies. (I'm not running even running eb)
arctic walrus
bote, lucid/strife (replace with vision if you're doing double echos)
iron plover
cool thanks
where do you slap bote in the burst rotation?
is that a bit clunky or is that just me?
arctic walrus
are you lusting on pull or doing the wait strat
arctic walrus
so are you doing echo 1 or 2
iron plover
first one
arctic walrus
pull > 2 minute (dmg amp) > echo 1 > on cd/echo 2 (outside)
vernal flume
what's everyone using generally for minor essences now for M+? For lets say 17s and higher
vernal flume
ah ok cool, I assumed lucid strife but not vision
tropic ocean
vision is really strong in tyrannical or kings rest tos and stuff that has a lot of prio dmg/hard bosses
in kr i ran 3x ss 1x np 1x bbi 1x ttk with vision minor and it was super good
vernal flume
makes sense
tropic ocean
depending on key height you basically solo voids or zerker
iron plover
ah, yes. I was asking with regard to vendetta / vanish. I think maybe I'm too hung up on getting 3 envenoms in the BOTE / TB window
tropic ocean
and really strong for room after 1st boss too
bleak spoke
i'm still a big fan of exsang in kr
vernal flume
thanks!
rose sky
For this week would iris be better to run over bote?
rigid mango
No
rose sky
So bote 3xss 3x eb
rigid mango
Bingo
rose sky
Ty
zinc zodiac
Guys is it good to use razor coral every time it come back up to use?
or let it stack until vendeta is up again? with vanish
arctic walrus
as stated in the pins, pair with your vendetta
steep dome
also time both at 30%with inkpod
arctic walrus
no 🙂
rigid mango
Sin is so reliant on vendetta windows that it's straight up better to just use it with vend
ofc, if you can, you can try to muck about with aligning CD usage with inkpod proccing but not necessarily worth risking unless you're confident you don't lose anything from doing so,
vast forum
yea, lining up at 30% is fine if you don't lose a cast
also, most ppl don't use inkpod anyway
deft nymph
drifting cloud
lines up better
odd rampart
how much are sockets worth on pieces? like 10 ilvl? I have a 440 socketed parrotfeather cloak and was wondering if it would beat out my 455 Turncoat cape
both have the sameish stats i think
celest mirage
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
vast forum
@odd rampart usually on cloaks ~20-25 ilvl
iron slate
How we do do Orgozoa Mythic? spam FoK while adds are out as we do basic rotation
cobalt pelican
depends what your goal is really, if you want to do boss damage and you're playing your normal raid gear with double dose you don't fok no
you can fok occasionally to refresh poisons on the ads if you like but in general mutilate will remain your builder and the only change to the rotation is applying a few ruptures to the ads as they come down for energy income
if you want to do max overall and you're playing eb/sob yeah you fok
iron slate
Thanks. We've been just FoKing as doing rotation as usual. Numbers seem fine still but wasnt sure if there was a better clear cut
arctic socket
Is 10 dps worth switching to MA play style?
cobalt pelican
unless you're playing a fight where subterfuge can be used more than once, probably yeah
arctic socket
10 points just doesn’t seem worth switching to for ever fight but on some fights I would
Asking here for opinions from players of each play style
(1 ss)
cobalt pelican
are you sure switching to ma is 10 dps gained if you're playing ss
that doesn't sound right
but generally i prefer ma to subterfuge just because it means you don't have to delayed sync vanish with vendetta, though i doubt you'd do it with 0ss subter
azure gate
If I only have x3 ss and x1 EB, is it even worth trying sin in m+?
cobalt pelican
those are pretty good traits, so probably if you want to yeah
arctic socket
currently 3 DD 1 ss 1 ttk
azure gate
So x3 EB isn't a requirement?
cobalt pelican
no not really, most people don't play 3eb anyway
there are certainly benefits to it, and some people will play it sometimes, but it's definitely not required
azure gate
Nice. Good to hear. The rng of outlaw is starting to get old. Sin seems far more consistent.
arctic socket
If you have 3ss with 1 eb or 2 eb you should be fine
While running CT gives some nice deeps
I did a sim wrong... Ma 387 dps upgrade MA here i come .-. xD
cobalt pelican
replacing the ss with something i assume?
queen panther
watcha sim is watcha get
arctic socket
That's true
queen panther
crisp hollow
does TTK pull ahead of DD when you're running BOTE (like for Azshara)
quasi pewter
no
arctic walrus
I mean no not really, you only ever need 1
crisp hollow
feels like maximizing those few GCDs after hitting blood seems more important but thats obviously pure feelycraft
arctic walrus
why would those 2 things correlate
crisp hollow
BIG NUMBERS
exotic rose
Hi guys, any clues why most assa rogues run BoTE on Azshara mythic? Guardian usually seems higher for ST
Is that padding (or being assigned to) adds?
arctic walrus
lines up better, gives you damage when you need it, lets you take strife over iris minor
strange python
anyone have a fat sim i can look at
exotic rose
Thanks @arctic walrus
crisp hollow
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/cCCMgcZVDA72UCA8R9kRnu is under 52k even acceptable this late in the tier lol
queen panther
that's more than enough
obviously should still look to get those numbers higher but +50k is not disappointing
crisp hollow
kinda nuts that the difference between me and stunkei is 15ilvl on font, OH and coral, didn't think that'd comprise a 3k dps difference
crisp hollow
I know that lol, just didn't think the jump from H to M was THAT noticeable
i doubt my guild ever kills ashvane again tho
so lets hope for better luck next tier
queen panther
iirc needed like 45k min for Ashvane... either way if you have enough for her you're fine for the rest of the raid as long as you perform well in every other fight
crisp hollow
i mean that they’re only extending on azshara to get everyone CE
we’re never reclearing again lol
queen panther
tbh they're just doing that cuz they've been behind on things most of BFA
oh you meant your guild, not Blizzard, i misread, derp
rigid mango
If you've been active a majority of the time of this tier you should honestly be looking at 53~ tbh
queen panther
always be pumpin' those numbers up
crisp hollow
yeah i missed a good 2ish months of this tier due to a nomadic lifestyle from BFA-related guild turmoil lol
had three die before I found this one
tall narwhal
I dont RAID mythic, only pug heroic and m+
I have only benthic boots, and i sim 47k
However
Its kinda strange because in my outlaw setup i sim exactly the same 
worldly fable
Hello, I'm assuming the desired traits for SingleTarget fights would be 3xDouble Dose, 1xTwist the Knife, 1xShrouded Suffocation and 1xNothing Personal? I found the raveholdt.net info slighly lacking in that section
young portal
2 x double dose, 1 x NP, 1 x bbi, 1 x ttk and 1 loyal if your raid has a few members running loyal. If they're not or you're pugging or something then 3 x double dose, 1x NP, 1 x bbi, 1 x ttk. Those are about the best setups
worldly fable
And here I was thinking that ShroudedSuffocation was a must, I'll need to re-plan my gear then
Thanks a lot
vital haven
2xDD 2xloyal 1xNP 1xttk sims really good as well
ofc you need to have 4 loyals in the raid
worldly fable
I cannot commit to a retail guild until TBC release so I'm probably gonna stick to pugs or helping a friend's guild
So Loyals are out of the picture
vital haven
ye warrs like it
monks like
if you have exorsus raid tools @worldly fable yuo can check the azerite traits of the raid you are in
worldly fable
Fair enough, I can plan on getting a backup piece with Loyal to the End then
rigid mango
Blackwater chest is BiS and still beats a lot of chests even w lower loyal counts
tropic ocean
@crisp hollow shouldnt worry too much
Didnt even have 40k dps on ashvane and that was before 2 hp nerfs
old urchin
@rigid mango does Raidbot and Simulationcraft not take Loyal into account? Been siming my rogue but always en up with Spymaster's Wrap instead of Blackwater
strange python
is dagger in the back trait better than twist the knife?
rigid mango
No
old urchin
Ahh thanks @rigid mango
rigid mango
pearl pagoda
how is sin looking for next tier?
ive been hearing warriors and dks are going to be the go to melee D:
rigid mango
Cleave looks good but boss always needs to die.
pearl pagoda
wonder if the tier is going to spread our class out more
id love to see a zul fight for sub again lol
shut garnet
as long as the BoD 3ss 3np stuff stays out
rigid mango
Wouldn't be abused even nearly as hard but they'd be aight sure.
rigid mango
No
shut garnet
the current build rn is 3dd 1npb
rigid mango
They chose 1 trait
pearl pagoda
well triple stacking NP is wierd to stack sometimes
DD is just a clean easy trait to stack
rigid mango
to be the "bis trait" that's on every piece
shut garnet
triple stacking np just seems dumb 
rigid mango
I.e, NP for sin
pearl pagoda
NP is kinda a one hit wonder
shut garnet
isnt it ace for outlaw?
shut garnet
everyone plays 3ace + deeper in raid though wut?
im guessing what THEY want to be bis vs what ppl end up playing is different
but w.e
rigid mango
And who plays more than 1 NP or TFD?
shut garnet
exactly
shut garnet
so they should acknowledge that and stop clogging gear w stuff no one wants 7 times
rigid mango
It's whatever anyways
pearl pagoda
yeah theyre okay traits
pearl pagoda
but NP doesnt stack as well
rigid mango
odds are shoulder and chest pieces are locked anyways
shut garnet
yeaaaah
rigid mango
And that means slithering loa is probably BiS helm.
rigid mango
If you already have NP, swirl should outvalue the ones coming after
Like bbi on goraks
We'll see how scaling goes.
pearl pagoda
ah yeah if you can get goraks i guess youre right
rigid mango
no
You'll be picking the +10 ilvl shoulders anyways
Since shoulder + chest are +10 ilvl from last 2 bosses
They're probably BiS regardless of lacking OP.
pearl pagoda
insinuating im going to get those to drop 
rigid mango
There's a ttk np op shoulder iirc
Odds are that'll be used for the majority of the tier
rigid mango
And there's a good chest from vex(?)
DD something OP iirc
might be ss and then heart ofc
we'll see how good heart is
pearl pagoda
NP/DD dark heart/SS OP for tertiary
yeah im worried heart sounds weak
i feel like uldirs reorigination arrays traits were spoiling us
warm parcel
84 of all stats isnt weak
rigid mango
at 475
whilst a 450 loyal gives more overall stats
It's not horrible I don't think but it doesn't seem amazing either
warm parcel
450 loyal is 351
pearl pagoda
maybe with neck level it will be stronger (dont argue with logic it will hurt my feelings)
pearl pagoda
waiting so long for this patch is making me antsy whether i should dump my eggs in a warrior basket
pearl pagoda
but i love rogue too much T.T
arctic socket
I may have to go back to rng spec 🤷♂️
thorn galleon
how do you sim mythic azshara?
rigid mango
Just use your normal stuff but blood major if you have it and strife instead of iris if you have it r3
That's really just it
inner sonnet
I think most azerite for Assass next tier will come from Residuum, Gorak's etc still being the nuts
rigid mango
Gorak's is probs 2nd bis ye
inner sonnet
tbh I don't think people will want more than 1 raid piece of azerite, new stats trait is trash and NP... does anyone really want more than 1 when you can get DD, BbI, TtK off of different pieces? Unless a fight requires us to be more bursty, like Ashvane this tier... I don't see it happening
rigid mango
They're +10 ilvls though.
The chest and shoulders
There's a chance OP can win out, but 10 ilvls is a lot.
inner sonnet
That is true, especially with trait scaling
oblique moon
You think even the chest with np and ttk will be better than dd/ttk/op?
I guess chest is a loot of stats as well
rigid mango
np/dd wont be huge diff
It's essentially OP vs 10 ilvls in both slots
I've seen it happen before that goraks beats nearly everything because of OP, so we'll have to see
Can but only wait, really.
arctic walrus
Give me answers, now 
oblique moon
I thought that the new traits were supposed to have some corruption resistance on them as well
rigid mango
That'd be the essences
inner sonnet
it also depends which traits scale the best too, if DD pulls ahead of NP due to scaling (like, we're gonna have so much haste energy regen will be a null thing) then gear with DD on will be better, even if marginally
rigid mango
For sure but esp the shoulder slot you have DD NP ell whirl +10 ilvls vs DD NP/BBI OP
My guess is you run the two 10 ilvl bumps and slithering loa helm
instead of goraks
Since swirl's always been good
inner sonnet
True, it's a similar effect to BbI, and that helm's got TtK/DD for whatever you need in tier 1
tbf, Blizz should have taken 'putting each spec's best trait' on all pieces of gear to be OP on all gear for us, not NP... now that would be tasty
rigid mango
Should just be DD really
slate stone
Do i refresh bleeds during Toxic Blade windows if needed?
rigid mango
Yes
vast forum
fine print: "if needed" = you messed up earlier
exotic rose
By that you mean it’s better to refresh even outside of pandemic?
slate stone
okay so do i refresh them earlier if Toxic Blade is about to come up?
if there's like 8-9 Seconds on Rupture when Toxic Blade comes up is it better to refresh Rupture before Toxic Blade, pooling energy and use Toxic Blade?
rigid mango
Only if within 2~ seconds of pandemic
arctic walrus
was garrote worth dropping if inside tb
rigid mango
Don't think any bleed's ever really worth droppnig
arctic walrus
so it'll always end up being reapplied during tb
vast forum
unless the timing is such that you reapply it just before or just after, yea
inner sonnet
Assass is very much a planning spec, and that's something you have to take into account, it's usually best to refresh early, over it falling off or wasting a TB GCD
strange python
I'm gonna ask it because I have no idea and I probably will get some dumb answers but:..
How do you guys deal AoE Damage?
Fan of Knives I know but how do you spend your combo points?
rigid mango
Rupture to keep 4+ bleeds up or envenom
4-5 bleeds = enough energy regen to only be capped by GCD
You fok to build, spend on envenom/reapplying those bleeds when needed/crimson tempest
And then you can ignore CP when you reach higher target counts with enough EB traitws
strange python
So I basically play my normal ST rotation on multiple targets while generating with fok?
Is crimson tempest good in m+ where I have a lot of trash or is a poison bomb stronger (if it proccs)
rigid mango
CT is better for a majority of dungeons, the exceptions are KR/Siege/Tyr ToS
Because those are less trash centric dungeons
Or have smaller pull sizes
strange python
Do I spam CT then and ignore ruptures at some point or just as said above but THEN I CT?
rigid mango
CT functions as a bleed
You don't spam it
And it doesn't give you energy, rupture and buffed garrotes are your energy sources
strange python
Ok so I do it once to get the CT bleed on all enemies and then continue with keeping up my ruptures and garrotes
keeping all bleeds up afterwards ofcourse
rigid mango
There's a bit of an m+ opener guide in the pins
You essentially want to spread 3 garrotes, CT, build and then rupture
At that point you should have full energy reg and you're GCD locked
You then spam fok if you're in the blood window of extra crit etc, use envenoms, etc etc
You get used to how the flow of the spec is after you play it for a while
balmy stump
Why does the father of rng hate me
I’ve been rolling for a gorak tuls for months
I need blightborne
strange python
Ok thank you @rigid mango
strange python
But.. That all sounds to me like we are pretty much like every dot based specc in low m+
useless on trash if they die fast
strange python
Alright ^^
pallid void
Why only 3 garrotes in the opener? It's your top damage (outside of bosses) and you can squeeze out more
i realize you cap CP but to me it seems worth it... what am i missing?
rigid mango
You can't squeeze out more?
pallid void
assuming you have subterfuge
vagrant tapir
per GCD rupture is more damage and an um empowered garrote
so its better to start foking to get your rupture up than use that garrote
pallid void
rgr that, good to know
vagrant tapir
**un-empowered
pallid void
should we be taking CT even on tyran and/or non teeming weeks?
rigid mango
Take CT outside of KR/Siege/tyr ToS
pallid void
Is there a guide or resource you would recommend for more advanced M+ discussion/strategy, real min/maxing?
the pin guides dont even mention taking CT for AOE
pallid void
well RIP, icy veins also doesnt mention it
rigid mango
Or just this channel, his streams are normally quite informative and he'll try to answer your questions
queen panther
all the class guides are really just a very good in-depth read on teaching you a rough draft way of playing your class, you're expected to do some things on your own
sim literally everything to min-max stats, big brain plays coming from getting experienced and understanding "what does what best in this current situation"
rigid mango
queen panther
always be simmin'
pallid void
100% with you on figuring things out... just surprised in this age of monetizing that sort of information that no one is creating proper guides with the min/max info
would have expected someone to have a guide or youtube vid or something with that info looking for some clicks and views
which im happy to give
rigid mango
Might happen for this guide, might for Icy veins
Depends a bit on how much people can be arsed
queen panther
yeah basically lol
pallid void
ive gotten 90% of the way there and perform well enough, but looking to squeeze that last 10% out looking for the big brain strats
for ex. today i learned the 4th garrote isn't optimal... theres no amount of "figuring it out myself" that would have led to that conclusion
rigid mango
A lot of it does come from getting a feel for it though
Eh, if you're experienced you know how essentially useless it is to apply that garrote
in terms of value per GCD
pallid void
im experienced enough to know where to go to ask 🙂
rigid mango
queen panther
pallid void
As a simpleton I look at my DPS meter, see whats doing the big dam unhealable dam, and notice it's garrote... so obviously more garrote = more better? negative
i was duped
queen panther
a different tool for a different need
pallid void
the 4th garrote is a lie
this is why i prefer stabbing people in war mode and area... ideally some 4/8 mythic raider with a vantus rune rolling that's GM or Co-GM rank
rigid mango
The 3 are super high impact
The 4th one is essentially useless
From a dps standpoint
If you think about it, it gains you a very small amount compared to other things you can press
pallid void
do any of you swap to OL for teeming weeks? or stick assass
rigid mango
I play what I feel like, it's not really week dependant or anything alike
Mostly assa though, for every week really
pallid void
just wait... one day outlaw is going to be a ranged DPS or healing spec
just throw vials of weird shit at people for heals
arctic walrus
refreshing to see someone not say sub will be new ranged spec 🙂
queen panther
Demon Hunter Dual-Crossbow ranged DPS spec when?
pallid void
if I could have anything for christmas, it'd be Outlaw playing like a bow spec Thief in GW2
being able to teleport by shooting arrows, having ranged DPS and decent melee
queen panther
nah foo, guns only, pirates didn't ever use those lame bows
not the cool ones anyway
rigid mango
Oof we are not on topic now my sirs
queen panther
glacial crypt
How's Crimson Tempest looking in m+ now? Yay or nay?
rigid mango
Yay outside of kr/tyr tos/siege
jaunty arrow
Yo i know its superearly but test someone new trinkets?
echo parrot
are raidbots accurate for assa rogues? cause if i sim then "haste" is the best stat.. but is crit not better if i play with "master assasin"?
rigid mango
Why would crit get better with MA?
You do realise it increases by a flat 50% crit, not 50% of your crit, right?
jaunty arrow
@rigid mango thats true, i just look on them and that set ones looks cool
rigid mango
There'll be news on them as soon as they hit servers etc
echo parrot
oh ok... no i dont realise that..^^
rigid mango
So it's as if you had 50% crit and then just added your crit ontop of it
echo parrot
okay it means that i can trust the sims right? 😄
verbal knot
yesss
rigid mango
Yes
echo parrot
thank u very much !
trail scarab
is it echo blades or scent of blood you want for m+?