Idk. On wowhead it looks very mediocre, but from what people who've been on PTR are saying it's really good
#assassination
rigid mango
Either way, sin is fucked for m+ but probably best tier ever for raiding
Azerite wise
frail sand
sin for m+ Omegalul
rigid mango
bright axle
Sin is fine for mplus only becomes relevant for outlaw like 20 and above
rigid mango
Sin works in every key in every level
frail sand
Guess it depends on comp, but gouge is kinda nice. In some dungs the silence from assasin might be better
rigid mango
Yes, outlaw's utility is dope
But still the 5th rogue in the world is a sin otp
so obviously it's not enough of a dealbreaker to make sin un-viable
dreamy imp
hi, I have azshara trink coral and ink pod which would be best for ST
rigid mango
Font + coral
dreamy imp
thx
oblique moon
Yeah I’m really curious about the new raid trait since it seems like everyone’s fav but is 320 stat which isn’t even better than loyal to the end
hasty vale
Just wondering do we know what armor pieces we want in next raid tier?
arctic walrus
No we don't
rigid mango
Probably dd np op help and two from last two since they're 10 ilvls above
But maybe there's funkiness with the new raid trait and or scaling for some traits.
frigid pilot
Is sin worth it in mythic plus?
frigid pilot
What gear do I need
arctic walrus
3ss traits and 1-3 eb
frigid pilot
Eb?
arctic walrus
echoing blades
frigid pilot
Isn’t ss only improving stealthed garrote?
How does that make the spec viable
You only do 3 no?
drifting cloud
because it does shitloads of dmg
arctic walrus
It front loads a lot of your damage, then with the eb lets you not fall off
frigid pilot
How much ilvl is each trait worth to lose out on for them
And what type of sim do you guys do for mythic plus? Hectic add cleave?
honest vessel
Not really a great sim, dungeon slice is ok but not everyone likes it. You can also just do patchwerk and change the number of targets...as to ilvl each trait is worth, that's not really knowable
slate terrace
Traits + stats > iLvl almost always
For instance, a Harran's loaded dice at 420 item level can potentially produce more damage than a different 440 trinket.
Just because there's a higher number on it doesn't mean it's always better.
It's easy to get caught up in the item level push instead of what will actually make you perform better.
short pivot
Isnt mythic coral> dice these days?
clear dagger
Is 3x shrouded suffocation necessary to run sins in m+?
terse orchid
Not necessary, but deifnitely advisable
dark crag
magic thorn
No more ttk?
tropic ocean
u can use combinations based on the pieces you have
behemoth chest perfectly fine too
stoic crow
When all bleeds are up and we are use Envenom do we want to Envenom again inside EP window for the 10% dmg or do we wait until the Envenom buff is about to fall of?(before we can energy ofc) And do we pull energy before we use the first Envenom?
tropic ocean
the latter
unless inside of toxic blade
and you only pool before toxic blade so u can fit in 3 envenom
stoic crow
hmm been doing it wrong then. Thanks for the quick and clear answer!
tropic ocean
basically you dont need to worry about anything besides keeping dots up close to 100%
pooling before toxic blade etc are minor gains (which are good to do) but just pressing it on cd and not worrying about anything will not make or break your log
🙂
stoic crow
Rerolling rogue for 8.3 and since I am going to compete against 2 other rogues its good to know about all the small things you can improve on. 🙂 Thanks again
ivory shore
Outlaw vs assa for raiding? Im struggeling singel targ with outlaw dps. Im ilvl 435 should do around 30k singel targ as outlaw do like 27. I have never done assa tho i have No traits
modest tendon
Assa is better for prog
But if your asking you don’t play at a level where it matters
So just do whatever you find most fun
And maybe what your guild wants?
distant lava
if u do 27k and you should do 30k you're playing pretty good (assuming the 30k is from sims), you just have bad gear. I'm not sure as sin you will do much better in that case
echo oak
@ivory shore a tip I find useful that folks forget/aren't aware of, is you can sim in raidbots for "target dummy" and select "no buffs" (meaning no raid buffs like flasks, prepot, runes, auras etc). Then you can practise your rotation against a dummy. Note you can also turn on combatlogging, and upload to warcraftlogs etc to view what you are doing against dummy. Note it may not be necessary to go to that trouble for simpler rotations but when learning a spec it's my general go to method.
ivory shore
i was looking for outlaw plaers on all bosses, but ist hard. only rly see them on orgozoa and za,qul.
i do sim with no buffs at all
cobalt pelican
assassination is easier to play closer to sim numbers than outlaw initially but realistically to actually perform well as either spec it's the same process of learning and refining gameplay
woven shoal
@echo oak thanks for the tip. Just learning to play assass and Im having fun. But want to get better in rotation and the spec. Will try this out.
woven vapor
Hello! I'm new here, after having played Rogue a lot (sin/outlaw) a few months ago then burning out due to hand strain issue, I'm looking to get back into my rogue on Assassination. I've hit something of a wall, though, in that my sim (run with Simulationcraft 829-01) indicates i should be doing roughly 37k dps on single target, yet when I try on a target dummy, I fall somewhere down in the 23-26k range, (though that is without pots, flask, food, augment), and I'm really confused and frustrated that I can't get even remotely close to what my simmed DPS is, anyone willing to look at what I'm doing / talk things over?
arctic walrus
go on raidbots and run a sim without any buffs and see how you match
woven vapor
Right... That makes more sense, Thank you (27.8k on raidbots without any buffs)
tropic ocean
😉
honest vessel
Wow buffs are 10k? That's nutty I never realized
woven vapor
That is also Warrior Battle shout (10%), Monk mystic touch (5%), those two alone would make a difference of about 3-3.5k if you would be doing 27k, I think
weak garnet
If I'm using BotE single target (M+ bosses), would I use it before or after toxic blade in my opener?
lost horizon
i do the latter, i'd check out what the APL uses
though idk if anyone bothered to optimize that particular usage
arctic walrus
I do bote first if I need 2cp from my tb
weak garnet
Okie, thanks much!
feral agate
heya guys, i wanna go for assa pvp, but to get some good gear need to do some m+, how do you guys do your m+ ? assa or outlaw ? i don't wanna maintain 2 gears for 2 specs...can assa do well in m+, like multi garrot several targets is hard...how do you deal with that ?
rotund mural
Question - Should i replace my 450 chest with a 420 cause a 420 one has my 3rd garrote... ?
for m+
rigid mango
Sounds bad
ashen solar
honestly if you're going to do m+ casually you can just do assa
it only becomes an issue in higher keys
lost horizon
even then i wouldn't call it an 'issue'
sin is still extremely good, and there's a bunch of rogues pushing insane keys as sin only
outlaw's just more popular, and strictly speaking a bit better in most situations
ashen solar
yea
arctic walrus
If you don’t want to maintain 2 sets of gear then you have to play outlaw for both. You will need 2 sets to play double sin, or one and the other
feral agate
outlaw for both ? in 2s pvp ? noooo wayyy 😄
but to be more accurate with assa in pvp, besides of the multi garrot after stealth how do you maintain them during big packs ? or do you just maintain 1 garrot and multiple ruptures ?
by that i mean funnel main target and building with fan ?
lost horizon
in big packs don't bother with non-subterfuge garrotes
small island
go on yotuube
harsh sphinx
feral agate
@small island thnx for your input ^^
@harsh sphinx thnx, the notes part helps a lot ^^
harsh sphinx
hazy geyser
so i am currently progging on azshara i managed to get a shoulder with DD NP so i can have azerite set with 3x DD 1x NP 1x Twist 1x Relational Normalization Gizmo OR 2x DD 2x twist 1x NP 1x loyal and maybe if i am lucky i can get a DD twist helm so i can have 3x DD 2x Twist 1x NP i feel like that's the strongest but its a bit annoying to sim if you dont have the pieces
so is 3x DD generally better than stacking 2xs and 1xs of multiple traits?
latent gazelle
Perfect setup is 2DD, 1 NP, 1bbi,1 TtK, 1 loyal. (Highest dimming pieces for raid atleast)
hazy geyser
bbi is fucking impossible to get i am 14 rolls in and i still dont have it
latent gazelle
Yeah I just got mine recently and I’m now back up for Azshara prog
hazy geyser
i am random rolling because i need 2 sets 1 for outlaw and 1 for assass yay azerite........
astral tiger
Hey could anyone look at some of our best pulls to try to see if I can do anything better? Any advice would be much appreciated! ❤️ https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/8zRkCXGTmbMJ1fNZ/
(Sneakyninya)
hazy geyser
you guys are dying to malee a lot so i am going to assume that you are hitting the enrage which sucks dick on that fight
astral tiger
Yeah we've got some low dps, but mine is also pretty low from what i've seen on logs
hazy geyser
your garrote and rupture uptime could be a lot better
rupture 65% 60% garrote 61% 58%
hazy geyser
i just looked at the last orange pull
in one of my kills i had around 80 75 on rupture
harsh sphinx
your TB casts have very long breaks 1 min+ in some cases
hazy geyser
the best thing you can do on that fight is to have high uptime on bleeds on both bosses
well also that you got 7 toxics i got 12 so thats a lot of damage right there
astral tiger
Damn, I think I may have been trying to keep it with cooldowns, should I just use it on cd regardless? unless I have a cd in like 2 seconds?
hazy geyser
well dont use it if you are going to switch target immediately or when you are going pashmer and going to silivaz for the bubble etc.. but yeah you need to use toxic almost on CD depending on what you are going to be doing the next 10 seconds
harsh sphinx
7 vs 11 uses is a big deal
astral tiger
alright, I getcha. I appreciate it a lot!
tropic ocean
@hazy geyser u only need to roll 2 pieces max
For assa bis helm and chest from raid
For outlaw bis chest and shoulder from raid
woven vapor
is it ever worth pooling energy 4-5 sec before TB is coming off cooldown if your bleeds are both >16 sec?
woven vapor
also, is it better to get to 3-4 cp and TB->Envenom or better to Envenom->TB
hazy geyser
well yeah except for the fact that BiS helm is from zaqul and it didnt drop @tropic ocean
tropic ocean
Yeah but ur bis shoulders for sin will never drop
So personally I see no point in gambling other slots
@woven vapor always tb envenom
strange python
can someone dm me an assa char that sims 50k+?
fallow cypress
How did/are yalls guild deal with stuns on the hulk for mythic azshara? My guild wants to binding and then kidney 2 seconds before the binding falls off but it seems like such a waste.
I was trying to suggest just using kidney on spawn and having full uptime of the debuff. But i guess kidney would be a 6 second stun while binding shot is 8?
rigid mango
We kidney'd on spawn and re-kidney'd directly after
at this point kidney shouldn't be needed though
fallow cypress
The issue isn't that it's not dying, it dies before he gets a slam off...i think the issue is the positioning of the hulk when cyranus' spear comes out that's causing problems for us. The hulk is near the console/pillar when he gets stunned by the binding, instead of directly in the middle.
rigid mango
You can use bind + hoj or something
Should probably start with the kidney to maximise full FoV damage
But 
fallow cypress
right, that's what i was thinking!
marble hemlock
we just used binding
And once it procs the root
you can kidney to apply PotW debuff
marble hemlock
the enrage with the cc-immunity only applies after the first cc on it runs out
so if you have a 8sec binding, apply a 2sec kidney, the kidney runs out but the mobs continues to be rooted until the binding runs out
and since potw always lasts 6seconds, regardless of how many CP you use on the kidney itself, thats imo the best way to do it
fallow cypress
ahh that makes sense!
strange python
what weapon enchant should i be putting on my weapons. im around level 25.
on retail?
yes
probably elemental force or dancing steel if you can apply them at that level
arctic walrus
You can’t unless you have heirlooms
strange python
in that case I guess mongoose? not sure how the enchanting scaling works now
using heirloom daggers yes
honest vessel
@fallow cypress u can drop a 1cp kidney the instant you see the binding applied. You'll get the full prey on the weak duration and the binding will last the whole duration
That's how I did it :)
tropic ocean
or just make all ur dps actually switch instead of padparty
(Healers n tanks can also greatly help in that fight with cyclo trinket)
queen berry
Sin best for pvp?
vivid hill
what are the top end sims #s at
vivid hill
thanks ❤
broken obsidian
So how does echoing blades change my rotation in m+ if at all? I only have one because i have loa and gorak tuls
arctic walrus
It doesn't you just do more damage
drifting cloud
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
raw shadow
That's wrong, it changes your rotation significantly. assuming 3x echoling and no twist traits, you replace mutilate with fan on 2 targets, and replace envenom with fan on 3 targets. maintain 4 dots or rupture snipe for permanent energy regen for more fan spam
rigid mango
You don't drop finishers at 3 targets
raw shadow
that's true for the most part
you reapply ruptures if they're wearing off, you need to maintain 4 dots or rupture snipe
rigid mango
Unless possibly during bote.
rigid mango
raw shadow
during blood of the enemy window
rigid mango
yes
raw shadow
massive dps loss
rigid mango
I mean
Depends what you're using it for essentially
But for the most part yeah.
Fok spamming outside of bote was at 3eb 6t 2eb 8t 1 eb 10t
Last time the sims were done
Assuming 42% crit ish, and don't think it had a single ttk in it at the time
Unless both targets should be dying at the same time, mutilating at 0-2 CP, fok at 3 and finish at 4+ is a more consistant way of playing 2t boss fights like captains
crisp hollow
is it padding to go SS build on queen's court or optimal?
we do the kill 1 at a time strat
rigid mango
Padding in that case
tough dome
for mythic plus is it worth taking a 430 over a 450 depending on how azerite traits stack up? I want to keep 3x SS but it drops my EB to only 1, to use the 450 pieces I rolled on (iron tide captains / pistoleers )
with the affix I figured it'd be better to have the eb stacked
arctic walrus
what's your full trait set up, for both items
pearl pagoda
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
zinc zealot
Have you guys seen any rogues run double divers folley as assassination?
i wanna know if its a valid build in m+
pearl pagoda
that sounds
idk if that sounds dogshit or not tbh
just sounds like a meme dream we could never achieve
cobalt gyro
rigid mango
It's got potential if you're doing boost keys or something
Pull mass trash w every boss
Never limit yourself to 1-2 targets so mut isn't a button
arctic socket
any good number for when to remove razor coral?
rigid mango
But realistically it's not a feasible thing for actual keys
You use coral w vend
That simple
arctic socket
ah kk
So start pull with coral then once it resets is when you take out coral basically?
rigid mango
Yeh
On pull > with vend > reapply after vend > with vend
Rinse repeat
Added complexity with font too but it's not hard
arctic socket
Kk ty
bitter sentinel
would i ideally line up memory of lucid dreams with vendetta or would i be better off stagger them?
rigid mango
There're better majors kicking around now, but the pins simply describe lucid major usage 😄
fossil halo
so whats the ideal last row talent ? is poison bomb good?
rigid mango
For what content
fossil halo
m+
rigid mango
Pb for kr/tos/siege, ct for rest
raw oasis
My logs for Abyssall Commander and Ashvane, even with almost identical gear, show my agility changes from 12.7k down to 9.7k. Is there something that could explain this?
worn basin
Font?
jade minnow
So guys what do you think about daggers in nyalotha, are they gonna add some daggur with corruption or did they forgot assa still exist?
jade minnow
Im scared of tentacles 👀
sinful latch
I mean couldn't you at least have checked if there were a dagger before asking
worn basin
Why Google when you can ask someone to Google for you 🤷
sinful latch
I guess 
Seems like a lot of people think that is the smarter thing to do at least
harsh sphinx
jade minnow
havent really looked into it yet cuz im busy lately, but friend told me that its only int dagger... Im gonna kill him :) ty guys
woven vapor
I read someone say that the Kul Tiran Cannonballrunner trinket is really bad despite showing good on sims?
scarlet sequoia
nice
woven vapor
How bad is it :o
woven vapor
I got it430 socketed and i think my best alternative is 410 punchcards
scarlet sequoia
prolly use it then bro
honest vessel
Cyclotronic, if that's ur punch card , is def better than cannon garbo
rotund mural
do people use deeper stratagem for m+?
modest tendon
Nope
Vigor always better
Although seli was messing around with a DS+3ttk+2eb+1ss build at the start of the season
Everyone agrees 3ss+vigor is better
cobalt pelican
when you hit points in your play that you're not even using finishers deeper is just a non talent
but i can't imagine it being bad overall
probably just slightly worse
tropic ocean
or slightly better on aoe 😉
modest tendon
For CT?
tropic ocean
for example yes(ct will also get better the bigger you pull (if the mobs survive the duration))
jade minnow
So for this week is crimson more useful? @zine
strange python
sorry for this dumb question but what does the "G1" "G2" etc. mean in the pinned message for the M+ openers?
modest tendon
Garrote 1 garrote 2?
strange python
oh lol thanks man 😄
bright axle
What’s our general go to for azerite for raid? DD stack or?
Seems quite a lot of them are good and I spose it’s pretty interchangeable depending on fights?
modest tendon
2BBI?
stuck knoll
He meant 1 that’s 7 traits
pure moth
Sims are telling me to go bbi, without the np. Im baffled as everyone else is using 1 np.
So im running 3 dd, 2 ttk, 1 bbi 1 loyal
I even just downgraded to a 435 for the combo.
@modest tendon its blightborne infusion
small island
i think he meant u cant have 2 bbi
pure moth
Oh oops
cobalt pelican
bbi is a very good trait
latent gazelle
Could have 1 bbi and one swirling
jade minnow
Swirling sands on the head of loa isnt bad either imo
latent gazelle
Tho bbi and NP would prolly still be better
fathom wyvern
you need 1 np
latent gazelle
Yeah that’s the reason I’m running NP over BBi on my goruk shoulders. I don’t have another piece with NP 😭😭
cobalt pelican
you don't need 1 np at all
fathom wyvern
i cant run my goraks untill i get zaqul helmet
cobalt pelican
like, it's heavily dependant on how valuable crit is for your character
fathom wyvern
or i can but its a 50 dps increase in sims
cobalt pelican
but it's super normal for 1st np and bbi to be close, with bbi being better by a bit
latent gazelle
Yeah that’s true I guess. Guild recleared this week and working on Zaq tonight. Here’s hoping I get i for the kill
small island
ive gambled for goraks since start and still havent got them 😛 saving for 200k atm
jade minnow
I dont get why blizz choose NP as nyalotha go to trait
fathom wyvern
i mean next season im not even gonna gamble, gonna buy the pieces right away
latent gazelle
Stacking NP tho
latent gazelle
Are we looking at a VoP build next tier?!?!
cobalt pelican
probably not no
jade minnow
@freexz you cant buy them right away
fathom wyvern
nono i mean
cobalt pelican
and 3x np on good pieces of gear is 100% ideal for progress if the sim distance isn't miles
which it isn't
fathom wyvern
i save up from the start instead ofgabmle
jade minnow
Oh i see... Hm
fathom wyvern
my rng is dog
cobalt pelican
being able to shuffle more damage into one window is a huge benefit
jade minnow
Let see the calculations first
latent gazelle
Is there a corrupted equip that resduces cooldown per x spent?
Auto correct in iPhone likes to mess with me
strange python
does garrotte/rapture snapshot crit chance when applied?
cobalt pelican
n o
fathom wyvern
what do you mean? @strange python
strange python
just wondering why everyone runs master assassin, or is the tier 2 talents on ST only a minimal difference?
latent gazelle
MA is for the juicie envenom/DD Crits
fathom wyvern
dots are adaptive to your stats so if you get a procc dots will adapt to it
but its for the DD / envenom you can hit in that window
and if you have 25% crit youll have 100% crit chance during your BotE usage if you run it
strange python
I see
cobalt pelican
it's just a negligible row in general, you choose to crit 3 spells or have a slightly more powerful garrote
for most characters the crit 3 spells is better by like a tiny bit
fathom wyvern
for me its a 1.1% upgrade
cobalt pelican
like 500+? that sounds odd
for me and most other gearsets i've looked at it's like
0.2-0.4%
fathom wyvern
i might remember wrong on those numbers
fathom wyvern
was a while since i ran that sim, can do when i get home
cobalt pelican
it can vary quite a bit though
for sure
so it's ok to check out but either way it's really not that big of a deal what you take on that row
fathom wyvern
depends too on what youre doing
if youre on zaqul for example it might be arguable to run MA due to burst needed for add
jade minnow
What do you think about essences in next tier? Meaning minors for m+ since i dont think they are strong enough to replace clf/bote
cobalt pelican
no idea really, started slowpoking my way to pp just incase but that's about all i'm doing
for the ones that aren't obtainable yet it's easier just to wait for preliminary sims
latent gazelle
SS burst isn’t to far behind MA. Atleast doesn’t feel like it. And tbh it lasts a little longer. A SS empowered garrote would probably still have a second or 2 left when the Zaq add dies
strange python
wouldn't pp be completely overpowered for havoc/get nerfed if it's ever a good minor for assa?
royal lantern
why would pp be op for havoc.........?
fathom wyvern
havoc as in demo hunter?
royal lantern
ye, havoc is dh dps spec
fathom wyvern
ah
thought it was a assa question at first since rogue discord but now it makes sense 😄
strange python
it scales with haste no? it's already really good on fort weeks
and the context was that nameless said he's farming for it
royal lantern
but dh doesnt really stack haste more then other people?
strange python
DHs have like 3k haste for free
royal lantern
and he is farming because thenext raidtier has 100000000aberrations as enemys/bosses, wich can probably make the minor proc good
the fuck has haste too do with it lol
rogue with dagger is probably still doing more melee hits
and sin is stacking haste for raiding too(atleast in st)
strange python
it procs off of spells but w/e dude, I don't think you understood my question
fathom wyvern
ye i thought so
jade minnow
Hope they wont do same mistake as **** nazjatar pearl rng bullshit :)
ruby wind
Hello, i'm looking on here at other rogues similiar spec and gear and they all seem to be quite a bit higher on the sim. i raid Mythic currently on gorgonzola. so was just wondering if i'm missing something
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/5F7vk1FrQHDv6v1rBd1d8h
any help or advice would be much appreciated. thanks all
fathom wyvern
for starters your azerites arent optimal, you want 3x DD, 1x BBI, 1x TTK and 1x NP (optimal)
keen dome
at first glance : - wrong trait on shoulders and chest : pick Loyal to the End in 2nd ring.
- with no SS trait, use Master Assassin talent.
ruby wind
that's great thanks alot.
young portal
Lack of benthic with socket, no font either
keen dome
finish upgrading your benthic pieces, fish for a benthic bracer with socket. You can use Droptimizer to sim with socketed benthic piece and have a look yourself, it's not negligible
ruby wind
thanks for the quick replies. i'l get on that as soon as possible.
hollow stone
Im late to the party, but yes, pp’s proc rate does increase w haste. So classes like dh and spriest get super high value from it due to free haste steroids in their class
Whereas, it may be good for us, but we dont get those crazy haste buffs they get so it would be on a per boss basis. Def think its a good idea to get r3 pp before next tier. Lots of time
strange python
guys, just a quick question, i see frequently 'get your benthic' upgraded type of answers here, but at a point they will become redundant by upgrades right? trusting sim that tells me my hands and waist are better is fine ? or do i miss something obvious?
hollow stone
Benthic + socket for gloves, belt, boots, and wrists will be better than their alternatives within ep
strange python
even sockets queens drops?
hollow stone
This late in the tier, personally, i think theyre a waste of time but
strange python
sim tells me not
hollow stone
Tough to say for sure. The gloves from queen sim higher than they do in practice according to zine. Not sure how competitive the belt is
Youd def want em for next tier tho, if you can manage that
strange python
i will want the benthics for next tier? why , sry for the silly question
hollow stone
No no. Sry. Misunderstood me, you will def want queen items for next tier
Benthic will be just 425 socket gear by then
Cause the affixes wont work
strange python
ok, cool, i was jsut lucky to get the hands and belt in 2 attempts , so my behtics there went redundant really quick, i havnt managed to drop the bracers yet,....still peraling
hollow stone
Yea, for the rest of the tier, unless you get a sweet ass socket/forge, benthic will be bis (with socket)
strange python
ah, cool, jsut thought i was missing something
on another direction, have spent a lot of weeks jsut 'trying' different sets of gear, with either high crit, or high haste builds, increasing mastery etc.. jsut to try and see if sim would give me anything really different (for a blue parsing casual raider;_) , but I dont seem to be able to get past a certain point where the 3 x DD combination , for me at least, equates a much more fun build of 2 xss, 2 x dd. similar dps around the 46K mark for ilvl 437/438, does that sounds about right? or would i need to drop the sim in here for you guys to rip me apart?
hollow stone
Posting sims would be best. But, feelycraft-wise, running ss subt isnt going to gimp your dmg THAT much (for a casual raider)
If you enjoy it more and can execute it well, youll be fine
Youll miss some pure st dps but who cares if youre not pushing super hard
strange python
yeah, as long as i am around 500 -1k dps sim, i tend to go with it, as i know i am goign to drop 25% at least in real world mechanics
anything you can tell me that is blatemtly obvious would be appreciated
hollow stone
Im on mobile so i cant really play around with it the way id want to but you do want to make sure you include both subt and MA in your sims when comparing a ss subt build to dd ma
strange python
yes, i do remember to do that 😉 mostly
mainly i just find it curious that i can do nearly completely different build, by exchanging crit for haste )in general..changing back to MA and 3xdd, with sims showing hardly any big difference. which is reassuring in one, but then, not being an expert, there's always that niggling doubt that i have completely missed something obvious 😉
thanks anyway for the answers
hollow stone
One thing i like to advocate for feelycraft crit vs other secondary that is comparable is that crit has higher highs and lower lowes vs other secondaries just due to its rng nature. So if you want more consistent dmg (its not going to be anything extreme) then i would lean toward not crit. This ONLY applies if your weights for the stats are almost equal
strange python
cool, thanks, reassured 🙂
arctic walrus
@strange python do you have loyal traits in your raid
worn geyser
Hello, I have one quick question regarding sin in high keys, would a 435 plumage, or 430 socketed dice be preferable with CT build 2xeb 3xss 1xttk
Also does TTK lose some value when going CT build in which in would be preferable to go for the 3rd eb trait ?
tropic ocean
@strange python crit gets worse the more you put into it due to diminishing returns 🙂 cant properly check sim but 2 ss 2dd should be a big dps loss over meta azerite
arctic walrus
Assuming 4 loyals
Assuming no loyals
Both are better than the amalgam you linked
strange python
sorry, ty v much 🙂 got called away for dinner
@arctic walrus no really organised yet with traits, but we are starting to look at that now, ty
arctic walrus
If you care about parsing better you can link them here as well
strange python
@arctic walrus l lol, no, casual raider, so i know what i should be doing, just dont get the time to invests in actually doing it properly.
Seeing you simming my gear at just over 46K compared to my amalgam actually makes me feel pretty good 😉 500 dps or so for me is nothing when I still cant get the movement right around the bosses 🙂
fresh cave
anyone have EP azerite peaces id for top gear sim? 
arctic walrus
Which do you want
fresh cave
nvm, i found already needed 
shy axle
jade minnow
Tfw u got mydas talisman 3 time in a row 
near apex
quick question, on azshara if I press the console,during p4, while I have cloak on I wont get the system shock debuff?
arctic walrus
Do console then cloak
near apex
lovely, thank you
fickle spruce
Hello guys
I have an issue running subterfuge when I attack a single target and I cheap shot>garrote>rupture my bar doesnt change of stealth bar immediately so I say try and cheap shot again and it tells me I must be in stealth to do this c.c also if I garrote it is no longer a stealth garrote even tho it's from my stealth bar
scarlet sequoia
u only get 3 globals while subterfuge is up
fickle spruce
Do I need to drop my haste to make it more fluid, or increase it to fit a 4th skill in?
scarlet sequoia
u cannot get 4
fickle spruce
Hmm so I should lower my haste to line up my global cd with the bar change or rearrange my bar and add mutilate somewhere on it 🤔
scarlet sequoia
or just calm down for half a second and wait
either works
only place u wanna run subterfuge is in m+ anyways
and u should do 3x garrote > rupture there so the bars changing shouldnt be an issue
fickle spruce
Hmm I use it on open world and and pvp, I feel like I never will use cheap shot without it cuz I have 1 ss azerite
scarlet sequoia
yeah idk then rearrange your bars a little, never heard of anyone having your problem not gonna lie
idle ember
confused... why the cheap shot over a longer empowered garrote + 3 point rupture
fickle spruce
10% more damage and no immediate reaction? Idk it my just my sub rogue quirks kicking in it's been wierd not really having access to cheap shit
jade minnow
Stealth pvp opener cs-garrote-rupture-mark-toxic-enve or you could double garrote for the full duration but thats only for exsanguinate which i almost forgot rogue had lol
fickle spruce
I just switched to toxic last week after I bought my first 445 shirt and it had dd instead of ss
I find it hard to pool energy for toxic>enve in pvp so far
Actually this I havent been using mark I'll have to swap to that next pvp
Thx guys, btw I saw yall talking about diminishing returns on crit, what point is that cuz I'm sitting at 39% atm
arctic walrus
We don’t know the sims do
fickle spruce
Oh
arctic walrus
That’s probably too high if I had to guess
jade minnow
You dont really use crit in pvp
jade minnow
See warcraftlogs and search through rogues, take time and elaborate then try out
fickle spruce
I was looking through the top rogues in m+ and they are all over the place one person actually has versatility socketed which I didnt expect
rigid mango
Might just be raid gear 😄
fickle spruce
I just downloaded io stuff yesterday I guess I'll need to get this sim stuff people speak of
I looked at the sim log once now that I think of it and they always double mutilate in rotation before a finisher, does it not sim seal of fate procs?
rigid mango
It just didn't crit 😄
fickle spruce
strange python
sinister strike and mutilate proc "seal fate" right
fickle spruce
Sinister strike is outlaw skill
From what I have seen mutilate, toxic blade and fan of knives can all proc seal fate
fickle spruce
Each spec has it's own filler, outlaw>sinister strike, sin>mutilate, sub>backstab/shadowstrike
Whenever you change spec most of your offensive abilities will be replaced with a respective one from the new spec but you keep most cc and defensive skills
fleet whale
assassin uses sinister strike for early leveling but it gets replaced by mutilate later on
It's a crap ability though, for early leveling i would probably go sub or outlaw
fickle spruce
Oh I apologize then I didnt know
fleet whale
yeah, you probably wouldn't know it unless if you created a new rogue semi recently
sometime during legion blizz did a "perk" thing for leveling
fickle spruce
I played sub only up till last month
When I finally decided it wasn't my fault for being so crappy
steady owl
What major essence do you use on Za’qul when going into delerium?
lost horizon
Blood of the enemy is ideal, especially if doing 2 echoes
steady owl
Ok thanks
ancient iron
Hi can some1 pls explain me the rotation I read the guides I Sim 37k dps but only do 20k in raid I'm doing something wrong :(
ashen solar
can you show a log
rigid mango
That log is like
mega scuffed
but also liike
I have no clue why you randomly kidney
Your entire opening sequence is wrong
You overcap with mutilate's a fuck ton
Your uptimes on bleeds are low
I can't actually see what your gear is
ancient iron
im gs 427 right now heart is 62
rigid mango
Still no clue about your azerite
fickle spruce
How do you read turn that web page into a readable log
rigid mango
huh?
crisp steppe
@fickle spruce remove the de. part in the link
wcl then offers you a translate option in topright
rigid mango
I mean all in all you've essentially not read the guide or not understood the guide
All of your mistakes are very baseline.
ancient iron
I´m new to melee and rogue in general ^^ what are my mistakes XD
rigid mango
Everything
ancient iron
Oh 😮
vernal flume
he just told you all the mistakes ><
rigid mango
Like
I have no clue why you randomly kidney
Your entire opening sequence is wrong
You overcap with mutilate's a fuck ton
Your uptimes on bleeds are low
Kidney on bosses = no.
ashen solar
maybe he thinks internal bleeding is applied
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
rigid mango
Yeah, I'd guess so.
ashen solar
Which it isnt ofc
rigid mango
Read the opener section, it's quite easy to follow
You use finishers at 4+ CP, you don't mut to full
I can't even see the amount of CP you're overcapping but I'm guessing the number is gross
ancient iron
hmm okay i check it though and will practice on dummies thanks
fickle spruce
Basically make sure you use envenom or rupture at 4 to 5 combo points always, never let the enemy not have rupture and garrote debuff, also dont use your cc on bosses it does nothing
ancient iron
it´s from a guild mate wasn´t logging myself
fickle spruce
And if you have shrouded suffocation azerite trait it changes your opener sequence
ancient iron
kk i´ll going to read and watch guides ty guys
rigid mango
Would only recommend icyveins/wowhead/ravenholdt guides
They all have nothing wrong in them atleast.
ancient iron
kk 😄
fickle spruce
Does anyone run crimson tempest? I cant tell if I like, it did decent damage but that's only cuz I spammed it not sure If it did "better" damage than whatever else I woulda been spending that time doing
rigid mango
CT in everything that isn't kr/tos/siege
fickle spruce
Oh why not tos
fickle spruce
How big of pulls are you talking 🤔
rigid mango
Bosses are much more of a pain in all o fthe bove
They're small for the most part and not that challenging
meanwhile the bosses are more impactful
You could use it during fort weeks there though, for sure.
fickle spruce
Sorry I meant how many mobs in a pull makes ct good, cuz I feel like tos has alot of packs you could pull together
Although I guess most of them are skipped anyways
rigid mango
You skip a lot ye
And the only ones you can effectivly pull together are snek room and the stuff between snek and galv I suppose
Since CT isn't used on ST at all and bosses are the make or break, PB functions better there.
Not that PB is necessarily that bad on aoe either
fickle spruce
Oh also I read info that ct bleeds work differently than other the bleed damage stacks with new applications is this correct info?
fickle spruce
Oh I thought that sounded too good to be true
rigid mango
Fok is what you rely on for your aoe
Past CT application
The openers are in the pins
stuck knoll
Apologies for this
stuck knoll
Frequently Asked Questions
-Type !Help for a list of all our bot commands
Azshara's Eternal Palace https://tinyurl.com/yxqp5vbn
Dungeon Azerite Drops https://goo.gl/4udfQ4
Essence Overview !Essence in the relative spec channel
Simple Opener Priority:
If first mut is 4cp: Mut rup mut gar
if first mut is <4cp: Mut mut rup gar mut
Finish both with CLF>Vend>Tb>Vanish or Vend>TB>Bote>Vanish dependant on major essence.
"But what Benthic gear should I get?"
Hands: Poen’s
Boots: Akana’s
Waist: Vim’s / Fathomstalker
Wrist: Ori’s / Fathomstalker
How to use Razer Coral trinket?
- For Assa, apply it as soon as possible and consume stacks with each Vendetta, reapply after.
Font & Coral Usage
- Read the paragraph about it in #tc-updates
Misc
-The damage part of all traits stacks, for example SS doesn't grant an extra combo point after the first trait but grants more damage for every stack.
-Pandemic relates to reapplying buffs/debuffs. When a debuff is refreshed, its remaining time (up to a cap of 30% max duration) will be added to the new buff. Primarily used to give leeway to reapply bleeds, however can also be used to make bleeds last longer.
-Pooling is the act of letting your energy replenish to give you better damage windows without losing any potential damage. Do so after building to 4+ and await high energy to finish.
Please utilise the pinned messages as well as the resources and information in #rules-and-guides before moving your questions to the appropriate channel
hollow stone
Ronkles for president
rigid mango
bruh my other pin then
fickle spruce
If it's just a regular bleed it should work for energy regen that's sad
stuck knoll
Essence Usage
Condensed Life-Force:
In the opener, after MA/Subt window, before vendetta and then on cooldown as it's not buffed by any of your other Rogue abilities. Minor gain in some situations holding for 3rd Vendetta (providing you don't miss a cast) due to the stacking haste..
Accompanied with lucid + iris for regular raid fights, strife if you have it rank 3 for multi target fights.
Blood of the Enemy:
For ST with MA and BotE use Blood into Vanish+Finisher after TB within Vendetta
For AoE, It provides more EB procs (still only up to 5). Best used either after applying 3 garrotes and a rupture, before spamming fan/prio.
Accompanied with lucid + iris for regular raid fights, strife if you have it rank 3 for multi target fights or lucid + strife for m+.
rigid mango
There we go
hollow stone
Oh no. He has too much POWER
Oh nvm, i thought you were pinning ronkles’ love for you @rigid mango
rigid mango
If anyone has any questions/see anything that needs adding/fixing in the recently added pins by ronkles 
please don't hesitate to ping me or dm me
Nah was just pinning shit in order again 😄
hollow stone
When did ct make its comeback?
fickle spruce
Woah that says strife > iris in m+
fickle spruce
Vers>haste cuz the more aoe situations?
rigid mango
Haste sucks
hollow stone
Ahhh ok. That was my next question lol
rigid mango
For aoe
hollow stone
Rip ttk. Too young
rigid mango
TTK kinda mediocre nowadays
Pullsizes not big enough
Rn the main use is just going full mongo and being a 3t+ king really
hollow stone
Yea. It really only felt good when it was fok env fok env. If pulls are smaller and its more fok fok env, i could see that
rigid mango
Vers scales with EB, which is a big chunk of your damage
Exactly that.
Vers is fine, not the best
Crit > mast > vers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> haste
You get enough haste on every pack from bote minor to make 4 bleeds inf energy reg instead of 5 bleeds
So that's pretty handy
hollow stone
Makes sense. Vers was already creeping up last time i actually played rug
fickle spruce
Could you get away with no haste or would the boss fights feel abyssmal?
rigid mango
Does kinda feel abysmal on bosses yeah
But that's kinda the deal
Sin will never be able to do both really
You just rely on OP/other haste procs
Like bote minor/lucid
it feels way better this season w 0 hate than it did last 😄
hollow stone
Thats why i liked 2/2/2 w crit mast focus but rip that it sounds
rigid mango
I mean it still works by any means
But going full mongo 3 eb ss just pumps real high
Just like it did last season too, tbf.
fickle spruce
What's eb
rigid mango
Echoing Blades
hollow stone
The meme dream has become reality. Where’s dayvanie?? 😞
hollow stone
Hoooo boi
fickle spruce
Hmm I'll have to re-evaluate my life choices I tried to build to be decent in both areas
rigid mango
He's rocking VoP minor nowadays for a lot of stuffs I think
hollow stone
I dont like being that guy, but im gonna be that guy. OL is probably a better bet if you want something decent in both areas
rigid mango
Yep
It entirely is, which blows
But by no means is sin miles behind/not useful at all
fickle spruce
I did not like playing ol
hollow stone
Always good. Too bad gouge >>>>>>>>>>> crip poison
rigid mango
hollow stone
I will be heh
rigid mango
Less of a choice deal more of a residumm rng kinda deal
1/6 in both helm and chest
fickle spruce
Not that I have options but I've been running 2 np 2 dd 1ss and 1envenom trait
hollow stone
Hidden blades cant compete w ct?
rigid mango
It can
There's a lot of discourse about it
Some people prefer it over CT
On sims it wasn't as good iirc, and I've already had this fight a million times.
hollow stone
I guess it comes down to how you use either
drifting cloud
our last row doesnt make or break the spec so whatever 😛
rigid mango
CT and HB are very close
I just think CT gives a more engaging gameplay nowadays
The diff is marginal
Wont matter for keys, the 3 tbh,
hollow stone
Yea, i mean, its that extra button to push, typically speaking thats more fun than just something passive like pb or hb
hollow stone
Tis true
rigid mango
Idk, I just use CT and PB and be done with it
hollow stone
Yea, i havent used anything other than pb since s1
fickle spruce
Depending on which one you use does that push mastery vs vers on way or the other?
Between ct and hb
fathom wyvern
so on azshara when is it most worth using 3rd vendetta, on cd to push boss into p3 or on first add?
rigid mango
You shouldn't really need any damage on azshara in that phase
It's more about 1 shielding first two
And then using controlled damage to maximise the value of the third one
wooden orchid
anyone's weak auras stop working
mine saying its for classic only
?!
just updated today
rigid mango
fathom wyvern
So just use first vendetta start of p2 and then next on first add at 68% boss hp?
or, after 2nd intermission
drifting cloud
well 1st or 2nd add, depends where you will assign them
drifting cloud
I think we have only 3 people using on 1st
rigid mango
Your RL should be the one assigning them
tough dome
should you prioritize 3xSS for M+? I was wondering if setting up my traits for this week with 2xSS 2xEB 2x TTK might be better than 3xSS 1xEB 2xTTK?
strange python
should i be using envenom to apply venemous wounds. or just use poison knife
cobalt pelican
yeah, i don't know if you're misunderstanding the passive or asking for a certain situation
but you just need deadly poison on the target
while your bleeds are ticking
strange python
yeah i was wondering if i should use poison knife to directly apply my poison. or does envenom do it
strange python
isn't it a % chance to apply
ashen solar
Envenom only increases the rate
cobalt pelican
yeah it's a chance to apply but like
strange python
and poison knife is a sure thing every time
ashen solar
You have 50% base chance per hit
cobalt pelican
you attack once every second, you won't have any issues getting 100% deadly poison up time just doing your normal rotation
strange python
oh ok
cobalt pelican
(which envenom is a part of anyway)
strange python
i was thinking since poison knife is a sure thing i could start with it. not risk not applying a poison before i garrote
cobalt pelican
nah never
strange python
good to know
fickle spruce
I was doing some thinking, with my 40%crit rate and master assassin should I drop all ss and open with 4cp mut?
rigid mango
You should never really have SS for raid anymore.
There's no fight that uses it
SS + Subt shines for cleave/super short kill timers. We'll see about next tier.
modest tendon
Going for boss damage on add fights like zaqul and orga, how often should you be putting ruptures onto the adds? And on what way? Fok or muti?
rigid mango
I never dotted anything
modest tendon
Just pure st?
rigid mango
Yep
rigid mango
For boss damage that's not a gain
modest tendon
I seem to do roughly the same st in outlaw and assa, rendering assa a bit pointless, it’s occurred to me that I’m likely playing assa very wrong haha
versed mica
I see a lot of sin m+ rogues use bote major instead of hose, but I sim higher with hose. Both are rank 3. What do I pick?
rigid mango
I can't member if sims have been done for that this tier
Bote.
On a fight like zaq per example
I never fok'd or spread bleeds outside of necessary targets when called for
Irrelevant damage if other people can do it without losing boss damage
versed mica
is hose just sim bait then?
modest tendon
Ye, it’s zaq progress that I was inferring actually, having a lot more success playing outlaw
What is hose btw?
rigid mango
Atleast I assume so through stupid shit
modest tendon
Bote a bit better
rigid mango
Bote scales with EB like a monster
Whilst also being one of our most potent essences for ST
Sin also has very little downtime during aoe and only sacrificing 1 GCD with bote feels a lot better too
worthy cave
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
rigid mango
That one, IV and wowhead are all good, the other two being better
fickle spruce
Does Toxic work on inkpod trinket
drifting cloud
nope
fickle spruce
rigid mango
Bote does tho iirc.
fickle spruce
I need to find a pvp island team
rigid mango
Both TB and Vend are whitelisted tho, so anything that isn't a rogue spell isn't affected
fickle spruce
That's really sad
rigid mango
I mean, it'd be insanely broken stuff if it did
fickle spruce
It would be so cool to find special things that work for you cuz of your class
rigid mango
Imagine inkpod hitting for 60%+ bonus damage and even more if you add bote there
Inkpod wouldn't even be a thing available for the class in that case
Spec, rather.
fickle spruce
What do u mean, I'm saying like if it did shadow damage shadow priest would be all over it or something because I think they have shadow damage modifiers?
rigid mango
Yeah but those modifiers are most likely also whitelisted
I mean if you think about it, you'd be playing your entire CD's around it
Rn inkpod hits atleast for like, 1 mil on a crit
fickle spruce
That's what I mean I think the game would be more fun if you could truly incorporate items into your kit
rigid mango
That's another 600k dmg from aligning CD's to it
Nah it'd be so limited in the balancing
And design
Specs with effects like vendetta that's a % damage increase
Would be insanely dependant on stupid, broken, damage trinks/effects
meanwhile outlaw would be fucked because they have no % increase modifiers
Sounds very unhealthy for the game
And the design options available for blizzard at hand
fickle spruce
I guess it would favor specific people too much?
rigid mango
Specific specs for sure.
And maybe even make huge meta swings everytime something like per say, inkpod game out
Would also probably mean we'd be playing inkpod + cyclo atm 😄
fickle spruce
I'm just remembering when gear had things like +fire damage
rigid mango
I mean, flat out
fickle spruce
Is cyclo nature damage?
fickle spruce
I mean vendetta aside cuz specs like ret and sub can increase all damage done vs our single target damage taken debuff
Actually how does that compare in damage formulas cuz I've been wondering for awhile if vendetta gave a 30% damage increase instead of damage taken debuff would it be better?
rigid mango
You mean, if we got a global 30% damage increase over a single target one?
fickle spruce
Does it math out the same way against a single target?
rigid mango
30% should still be 30% ?
fickle spruce
Ok
marble hemlock
ultimately depends on how the damage is calculated in the background
and whether having multiple multipliers that affect the same target are additive or multiplicative
crystal vault
On zaqul zerg strat (cds on pull and only 1 delerium) Guardian or blood of the enemy?
rigid mango
Do you know if you have enough damage without blood?
crystal vault
for add? yes
rigid mango
Then there's essentially no reason to us eit
I think I still used VoP last time I was there because it aligned the CD's better
crystal vault
would be one usage more, and 1 usage in vendetta + punctured
hm
2min is like, pull - around ~2min + punctured - p4 after add
rigid mango
I mean clf is just better for the fight 100% if you don't need the bote damage on the add
crystal vault
then i dont estimate enough the power of clf ^^
rigid mango
I mean if you think about it like this
2 uses of bote still doesn't win over CLF
😄
That's how stupidly broken CLF is, and even more so it scales off of haste
so using CLF downstairs gives it even more power
crystal vault
yeah simmed it, was just wondering about the one where boss takes more dmg in punctured, where i wouldnt had clf ^^
rigid mango
If you use CLF whilst downstairs that should still be more damage
crystal vault
Fine, thank you
drifting cosmos
Do we use CT on 2 targets as well?
crude cargo
Hey all, I main Outlaw but for M Azshara I'll be playing Sin. I've seen on the logs that most people run Blood major, with Font and Coral for trinkets but there're quite a few running CLF essence and Inkpod trinket. Is this just personal preference? Choosing between priority burst and overall damage?
crude cargo
Ok, thanks. And what about them using C&S minor on that fight? What's up with that
rigid mango
Multi target = iris loses value
= strife better
Iris and strife are nearly equal on ST anyways
crude cargo
True! Forgot that the iris stacks reset when you target switch. Tyvm!
rigid mango
They don't actually iirc, you can attack the target within 3 secs again and keep it up
but haste on its own loses value on MT
arctic walrus
still not the greatest in p3
rigid mango
That iris or strife?
ocean torrent
anyone know why Blightborne would SIM over Nothing Personal for my friend, but Nothing Personal SIMs higher than Blightborne for myself? Almost identical gear, both triple Double Dose, but my SIMs say 1 Twist and 1 Nothing Personal whereas hers say 2 Twist and 0 Nothing Personal
rigid mango
Link them both
ocean torrent
the SIM reports?
rigid mango
Did you use raidbots?
ocean torrent
yea
rigid mango
Yeah, link both
edgy pawn
If youre running CT in M+, do you just keep up the bleed? Or is there a point at which you start spamming it, even with tb and 1 ttk?
edgy pawn
Alright, thanks
wet ruin
what is the reason behind fok envenom before bote for opener without ct in m+
is it because of poisons?
rigid mango
env + ep buff, ask the man himself tho
tiny finch
i know its waaaay too early but, is there a overall opinion or guesses on what COULD be our best ST essence with CLF nerf? if it changes at all.
for assa
rigid mango
No.
tiny finch
i really enjoyed lucid dreams major play tho
ocean torrent
lol @rigid mango uses Dingus Khan, I have that as my iPhone game center name xD
ocean torrent
ok @rigid mango SIMs are done
mine
hers
and last night it actually had Ori's listed on her for being better than the 445s
for wrists
pure moth
I sim 50k... damn.
harsh sphinx
helm and 3 more sockets stand out
ocean torrent
well the helm I just got yesterday, previously was the Engi helm, but this was saying the new helm was better, but didn't change the thing about the Blightborne
@harsh sphinx
harsh sphinx
it's a nice setup
ocean torrent
I have the helm she has, but it has always SIM'd lower for me
pure moth
And sims still show np for you and not me
rigid mango
Yeah but you have 2nd bis helm
drifting cloud
np and bbi on goraks have always been pretty close, and you have loa which has another crit proc
so thats probably the difference maker
rigid mango
You have bis outside of gettinh zaq helm, azerite wise
ocean torrent
@drifting cloud but I'm saying even when I ran Engi helm before yesterday, it still said NP over BBI
drifting cloud
and the difference was how much? less than 100 probably
rigid mango
Her goraks is also 435 not 445
sour wraith
You don't have another NP either so that boosts it a lot
rigid mango
Like, there's a lot of things that could be doing that to your sims
And you can't expect sim diffs to be similar when what you're wearing isn't similar
Diff helms, diff regular pieces
ocean torrent
yea I redid the SIM only using the helm from 1st boss and it swapped to BBI on shoulders too, dropped the NP
this game 🙄
rigid mango
Probably just ttk liking crit in that case
strange python
i just got this trinket here, is it any good? https://www.wowhead.com/item=169319/dribbling-inkpod&bonus=4798:1487
fallow estuary
I'm allways not 100% sure on when to FOK and when to Mut considering the amount of DD traits
Do you still FoK on 2x Targets with 3x DD?
jade minnow
Do i sim hecticadd or mythic beta for mythic+ , because i simmed 53k on hectic with assa 431 ilvl 😂
frosty talon
And whats the Best Major eseence to use in m+?
Dont have strife or blood my self
PvP hater
frosty talon
Ok ty Zine
shut garnet
worthy moon
Do after consistently getting cucked for 1.5 months, I finally got a raid trinket.... Ofc it's the font of trashfire. How do we use this thing, it feels beyond clunky. I'm on font + 455 spyglass, I mourn my shit trinkets
So**
rigid mango
Just use it before each vendetta
try to burn as low as possible on energy and pump the full cast
worthy moon
Makes sense, I'll do this!
rigid mango
Seemed to be an issue with the use not the effect
ornate gazelle
I’d add add Vanish > G4 > G5 > G6 after CT and maybe a Rupture into that M+ opener pin
Then BotE
rigid mango
No (:
ornate gazelle
Idk why you wouldn’t want SS on 6 adds going into BotE FoK spam
Rather than 3
But you can save your vanish for the boss 5 minutes later I guess lol
rigid mango
Save it for after first garrotes tick out
rigid mango
Maybe lower down ye
vast forum
6 garrotes on a 6-target pull is better than keeping them for later imo
ornate gazelle
It is
vast forum
you don't risk a garroted mob dying early
ornate gazelle
Yeah I think optimal opener is G1 > G2 > G3 > CT > Vanish > G4 > G5 > G6 > (Rupture?) > BotE > FoK x5
rigid mango
Shit's good
short pivot
Is that a shit idea?
short pivot
Y
rigid mango
Does effectivly mean
short pivot
Idk fuckin scared to try
short pivot
So no y think?
echo hornet
hey there. do i change my azerite depending on dungeon? like, i thought that echoing is a must in M+ but here, this young man dropped echo for KR. https://clip2net.com/s/44PDE1v
rigid mango
KR has v small pulls
Echo loses a lot of value, I wouldn't use more than 1 if you can.
echo hornet
but in normal dungeons 3 garrote 2 echo 1 twist is a solid comp, right ?
for forti weeks
rigid mango
Yep, solid for everything
echo hornet
i keep jumping from assa to outlaw from week to week depending on gear. i like assa more but outlaw gives so much dmg out of nowhere 😒
left moth
thoughts on getting rid of 3rd echoing blades for a blightborne infusion in m+ ?
hushed maple
I think the faq part in guide is written a bit poorly, isnt it?
"No. There is no magic number. There is no break point. There is just what sim tells you to get."
I woukd actually read that and think about stat weights as a sim and not top gear
rigid mango
Consistancy>inconsistancy
Then that's a you issue.
If you don't know that top gear is better than stat weights odds are it wont matter 
hushed maple
Well I also try to get into the mind of someone joining this discord and trying to git gud
I know that top gear is better. But I think only a small margin does know that
rigid mango
The guide isn't supposed to be an introduction for how to sim
If you understand how they both work then it makes complete sense.
hushed maple
Well yes but there is that big word IF
rigid mango
If you don't, it's not the guide's deal to help you understand simming
Raidbots has that.
hushed maple
I don't think that a guide should be written for "experts"
rigid mango
It's not.
And the guide isn't made to teach you how to sim
It's for assa.
If you don't understand how to sim properly I'd recommend reading stuff on raidbots
hushed maple
Just write "we don't recommend stat weights. We think using raidbots as your gearing option should be the only viable method"
So people know, what you mean in the first place
rigid mango
Or just, read the manual of the tools you're using?
We're not here to teach you how to use the tools, we're here to teach you how to play the spec
Raidbots has all of the info about simming on the website, even gives a disclaimer when simming stat weights iirc.
hushed maple
Well but its unlikely, that people get into simming before knowing their class, right? So they wont come across raidbots 
hushed maple
Well I cant read the word "disclaimer" in the guide but whatever I guess
Just wanted to inform you
rigid mango
I'm fully aware.
But you're seeking the question to an answer that should already be answered if you were to read when doing your sim. No one recommends stat weights, and if you use it for the first time read the fucking disclaimer. If you don't read that, why would you read what the guide says in the FAQ? Seems redundant and unnecessary.
tropic ocean
🤡
odd drum
What's the least bad option:
- Refreshing your dots before TB window, but lose some value (i.e. Garrote has 8+ secs left)
- Refreshing your dots during TB window if they were to fall off
- Applying the dots after TB window, but lose uptime on them
odd drum
that would be 7.4 secs or less on garrote, what about 8-10 secs?
rigid mango
Iirc sims showed a gain at 2 seconds
Can't remember if sims were even done above that, but that's what I'd go with if I were you.
Safe bet
ruby peak
when my mut crits and i got 4 cp, do i finish or do a sec mut
in the middle of the rotation, dont speaking of opener
ruby peak
ty
strange python
is it worth running VoP minor in m+ or do you mostly line up vendetta with vanish anyway?
desert kelp
at how many mobs should I use Fan of knives instead of Mutilate in terms of single target damage? to get combo points for envenoms
or is it ever worth it
strange python
would you guys recommend AV to farm hornor for bote?
or perhaps skirmish or BGs?
im 15k to R3 just wondering if there's a better way
desert kelp
last week farming Bgs was way more value on alliance atleast
Av is super slow honestly, normal bg spam is better
did 23k in one day with bg spam
strange python
wait for next week and spam the AB vs bots brawl @strange python
if you're not in a hurry
hexed meadow
I assume to not use 2 activatable trinkets. Is this correct? (Like Razer Coral and Font of Azshara)
lost horizon
Font+coral is insane for raid
hexed meadow
Really? ok. Which do you use first?
lost horizon
Font lasts 30sec, and puts coral on 20sec CD
hexed meadow
I assume one is for burst windows, the other for downtime
lost horizon
So you can overlap them if you use font first
Technically font has the channel component so you can overlap 14sec not just 10
hexed meadow
So font precombat. Coral when able. second burst window do font early, then coral the window? xD
hexed meadow
ok. Thanks
lost horizon
Or sorry, it's in #tc-updates
hexed meadow
Aaah thanks. I was looking at research and immediately was like uuuuuh squint
lost horizon
Yeah my bad! Technically it's in there too but gl finding it