What do pallys have? Our pally is only person who even comes close on venomtongue
#assassination
timber meadow
tropic ocean
wings
@plain moon problem with sin vs demo is that
the add usually dies in around 20sec
and there vendetta is just so good
plain moon
I’m down with a spriest and lock so I think they only have CDs for second split
tropic ocean
spriest is decent but cant compete with rogue on add dmg
however good talks today gonna head to bed
o/
plain moon
Goodnight man
strange python
raiding essences ?
arctic walrus
clf for 6/8, bote for zaq+azshara
arctic walrus
You sim patchwork and pick the highest, which will probably be flame
arctic walrus
lucid and iris
timber meadow
No clf 
marble hemlock
@vestal wren just had a chance to go over your sims/conversation last night, outstanding work, thank you for that
timber meadow
I second that - ton of work goes into that stuff and the quality is outstanding especially for rogues in general
marble hemlock
definitely gonna fiddle around with that a bit :p
one thing i noticed immediately is that the CT sim fuu did was running iris instead of blood
but yeah, one of the main issues is that bote is being used incredibly late
by the time bote gets used, most of the subterfuge garrotes have run full duration or are about to expire, and i have no idea how to fix it
vestal wren
yes, i messed up with copying the profile there
but iirc that was only for the very high target sims with the padding rotation
@timber meadow yes it does not necessarily care about the TB window when refreshing,
I did a sim for optimizing the TB window that was barely a win.
marble hemlock
yeah, right now im running a few non-prio profile sims with ct/pb and comparing a few trait options
surprised that bbi performs this badly
vestal wren
the entire 8t situation reflects last season more then current but took over the discussion to be fair
the 5 target one was more interessting
vestal wren
@timber meadow yes the sim prioritizes bleed refreshes, i did a sim a while ago to change the behavior but it was barely a win. And for garrote refreshing it early was a loss.
how many targets is the sim?
marble hemlock
5
theres one thing that works better in 5t over 8t tho
thats the fact that vanish isnt being used immediately to garrote on target 4/5/6
but is held until the first set of subter+ss garrotes run its course
so yeah
the 8target definitely has some issues due to the early vanish
and a late blood
whereas the 5target one, while still not optimal at all with the bote usage, atleast botes subter+ss garrotes
the first one is particularly problematic because the insta-vanish into more garrotes means it might not even be able to get off a 3rd garrote after vanish, as evidenced in the sample sequence i linked
vestal wren
@tropic ocean
dropping vendetta was ofc also a slight win ^^
sim:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/64LP6MwTZupYJBxP3tEf8n
bleak spoke
Not fitting blood on top of ss garrotes is a huge issue
vestal wren
i am not sure how optimized the more target use is for vanish, but i wounder why it would differ with 5/8 targets
marble hemlock
well thats fairly simple tho
marble hemlock
cause on a 5target sim, its not gonna vanish until it can apply 3 fresh garrotes to 3 targets that dont already have it
vestal wren
rtb has a good point, but that means using prio rotation the problem is gone
marble hemlock
yeah
id definitely go with the prio rotation
even with 3EB, fokspam on 5 or 6targets isnt worth it unless youre sitting at ~60% crit
bleak spoke
At how many targets is it still a win on overall to vendetta seli
marble hemlock
no clue
talking about optimizing the sim isnt really about making it as close to real-life situations as possible
bleak spoke
Also with ct do you still g g g ct fok to ruptures or do you rupture first for energy regen
marble hemlock
cause on a 5target fight with prio that would like
bleak spoke
Not sure how to play it anymore
marble hemlock
3garrote opener, ct, fok to 4+ rupture prio, vanish pandemic garrote prio, 2more garrote on target 4+5, fok pandemic rupture prio, vendetta bote
worldly iron
marble hemlock
perfect example of that is 2nd boss in motherlode
bleak spoke
5 target with prio
marble hemlock
where you garrote on 2adds + boss, ct all targets, get rupture up on boss, vanish for pandemic garrote on boss and on the remaining 2 adds
bleak spoke
Oh yeah I see it
marble hemlock
and then prio the shit out of the boss with bote hitting all adds
marble hemlock
ye
marble hemlock
definitely
twilit lantern
hey guys, pre-pull: i've !stealth in a macro with mut, now if i'm using font (font/stealth/pre-pot) while under the other rogues shroud and i don't get the first hit on the boss my stealth breaks and my macro casts stealth again. Is there a better way to enter stealth while under the shroud effect?
marble hemlock
i loathed the eb fok spam we had in s2
so getttng to play CT again makes me a very happy man
bleak spoke
Yeah having an aoe finisher is so pleasant
Still probably pb in kr and temple
And siege
bleak spoke
But it was that way in s1
I think since push weeks are fort weeks any dps on st you can squeeze out in temple probably owns
marble hemlock
the problem with that is that ultimately its a drop in the ocean
bleak spoke
Yeah true
vestal wren
with 6 targts the fok spam seems to take over the default
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dStzZmvVtoTBSMkvTBNcsW
marble hemlock
thats still the ~36% crit one, right?
vestal wren
ye
bleak spoke
I think mastery builds are making a comeback
marble hemlock
interesting, i remember you doing a few fok-spam sims a few weeks back
with 1/2/3eb and at what point its more overall than doing a regular rotation
bleak spoke
Was like 4 6 and 8 right
marble hemlock
i seem to remember it was 8t for 3eb, 10 for 2 and 11 for 1?
but not 100% sure
been a while
mightve been 6/8/10 actually with higher crit
bleak spoke
Thought it was 8 for 1
vestal wren
the initial sims where with the standard profile iirc
marble hemlock
ye
vestal wren
with lower crit
vestal wren
iirc zine did tell me better stat distributions and afaik it was lowering the target count for fok spam
so ye its in line with what you have there
marble hemlock
imo 3eb talks are kinda redundant anyway because theres really no point in playing 3eb
but thats just my opinion
bleak spoke
hard to get 3 eb and also it's kinda degen
marble hemlock
(and i dont have an echo chest, so i cant even compare from gameplay)
bleak spoke
is raiment the only ss eb chest
vestal wren
why is there no point in playing 3eb?
bleak spoke
wait which pvp one
marble hemlock
idk, for this season i think id have my eye on this setup:
eb+ss fluid machinations
ss+bbi goraktuls
ttk+eb cepha
because theres not that many dungeons where you regularly do 6+ target pulls
vestal wren
if we jump back to this sim, it shows that 3ss 3eb is very compatitive
that is for 5 targets, so the regular pull size
bleak spoke
but it's also hard to find and the role powers kinda suck
i don't think any of htem have op on them except pistoleer's?
marble hemlock
its definitely not gonna make a big dent in either way
running less eb barely improves prio-damage
running more eb barely improves aoe
bleak spoke
especially since ct can cover it really nicely
marble hemlock
you only notice the difference in larger pulls where prio gets improved dramatically through ttk, which we could see in the 8t sims you did
due to the higher cp generation
and eb also scales into aoe way better at higher target counts
dark crag
Since m+ are never static and are unpredictable with pugs, i run 222
bleak spoke
i think i do want a 3 ss setup for sure this tier tho
marble hemlock
so with that in mind, the fact that 3EB is definitely inferior on smaller pulls and singletarget, thats an important consideration for trait-choice
the intersting thing is that from gameplay
i dont notice any difference in aoe when i run 3ss 1eb 1ttk 1bbi vs 3ss 2eb 1ttk
but in the sim bbi seems to underperform quite drastically
bleak spoke
because i think even in a 2 eb vs 1 eb setup you end up foking the same amount for prio seli
marble hemlock
mhhh true
i dont really see anyone playing 3ttk this season, its just not worth it due to the low target-counts
to me it was really only worth it because we were essentially able to play sub-esque with fok > envenom > fok > envenom spam
vestal wren
i mean i still wounder
bleak spoke
yeah even in a dungeon like motherlode atm you pull up to maybe 6 7 targets at a time
vestal wren
MA maintained a noticable lead even on 5 min 8 target sim, so if ttk was worth playing so was probably ma
vestal wren
yes, the only reason you would probably opt out of ma is for iron wire
bleak spoke
agree, but probably flipped around - i don't think you ever opt out of iron wire other than in extremely extenuating circumstances
marble hemlock
its also heavily tied to cooldowns
bleak spoke
none of which i can think of
marble hemlock
id expect quite different results if you removed vanish entirely
but youve definitely got a point fuu, 3ss 3eb, or atleast 3ss 2eb 1bbi might just be the best choice right now
our st is gonna suck either way
vestal wren
ss has quite decent value on st
marble hemlock
whether you have 1 or even 2 ttk traits barely makes a difference
marble hemlock
singletarget gets carried by vanish+vendetta
so any fight thats less than 2m40s
we just plain suck
i open 100k, then i drop down to 30-35k before 2nd vendetta
and shoot back up to 40-45k
with the 2nd set of CDs
i hate it
bleak spoke
in fights that are like 2:30 or so might be worth to use vanish separate from vendetta and just hold it for second v at 2 minutes
marble hemlock
probably
bleak spoke
like vanish on a big pull before a boss
and then go in with a raw vendetta on a boss
and vanish when it comes up again
marble hemlock
the issue with vendetta+vanish being the only way to deal decent singletarget
bleak spoke
something like that
bleak spoke
or rather vanish when vendetta comes up again*
vestal wren
not sure if its worth to drop vanish
marble hemlock
dunno
i think you wanna open, vanish after first garrotes run out
and if the fight is not gonna be >2m40
you vendetta on CD
and keep the vanish for trash after
bleak spoke
that's fair
marble hemlock
if you can stack both, you hold vendetta and stack them at ~2:20
vestal wren
just wait for vulpera racial, who knows might give horde a shadowmeld
marble hemlock
yeah
bleak spoke
filed under things i'm willing to be a furry for
bleak spoke
must be nice to have principles seli
tame basin
Hey guys, can you tell me what immunities helps with charge on Court? It's frost dmg so cloack should be fine right? Also Ice block, bubble, dispersion, Hand of Spellwarding?, DH Netherwalk, Turtle?
vestal wren
🤣
marble hemlock
hunters can just feign death the charge
bleak spoke
dispersion is not an immunity friend
worldly iron
tame basin
but still 90% dmg reduction
marble hemlock
block works, dispersion is enough to survive on mythic with a preshield, cloak works
turtle works
i think even WL survives with all defensives up
worldly iron
#wow-general question 
bleak spoke
wall dark pact yeah
marble hemlock
ultimately i feel that assa really is just an aoe class at this point
unless youre running a really st/3target cleave heavy setup
so for me right now it just looks to be either 3ss+np+ttk+bbi with PB for stuff like KR/temple/siege
bleak spoke
it does incredibly strong aoe yeah
marble hemlock
or 3ss 2eb 1ttk/3ss 1eb 1ttk 1bbi with CT for anything that invovles aoe
bleak spoke
and the non-cd non-proc nature of it is kinda unique
marble hemlock
so if i would be able to get my hands on 3eb 3ss
that would definitely be osmething id love to try out
vestal wren
CT is another pickt hat would mean you lose out quite noticable on st
marble hemlock
but i think id go with goraks over pistoleers
well, its not like PB makes up a huge chunk on st
if were being generous, were looking at a 5% loss on ST
tame basin
So CT would be better than HB?
vestal wren
going 1 ttk 2 EB 3 ss just means you got another dps trait for bossfights
tame basin
I thought HB with at least 2x EB is quite nice
bleak spoke
morning was also running double divers sin
marble hemlock
hes playing CT everywhere now 😄
vestal wren
as in prio it didnt rly make a diffrence
tame basin
On how many targets it's worth to use CT?
bleak spoke
2
unless you're in a window
and you play to refresh it
to spam ct i think 5?
i don't remember
insofar as you "spam" it
tame basin
I was thinking when it's worth spamming and when its worth only to keep up dot
bleak spoke
given you have to refresh ruptures etc
vestal wren
changing from 1 ttk 2 eb 3 ss
to 3ss 3 eb is around 5% aoe damage win for ~1 % prio damage loss
marble hemlock
its usually not about at what point it becomes more valuable to spam it for overall, but whether you just want aoe or more targeted damage by using envenoms instead
vestal wren
(on 5 targets, with the downside that you lose a dps trait on pure st)
bleak spoke
that's probably net neutral on time in a dungeon
marble hemlock
depends on the dungeon and comp really
bleak spoke
generally speaking
in some dungeons for sure it's a win to have a bit more st
in others it'd be pointless yeah
marble hemlock
if youre running a boomy+dh that carry singletarget pretty hard, your singletarget as an assa just has less importance
when everyone is doing 40k st and you have to consider a 1k dps gain from a trait on st
thats more impactful then running with 2dps that deal 45-50k
bleak spoke
but in your outlaw/ww/sin comp probably the opposite is true yeah
bleak spoke
not that outlaw is actually bad in st
yeah
with just crit on pull you float at like 52-53 for a minute lol
marble hemlock
but singletarget/prio is less and less of a consideration for me, sadly
vestal wren
but it becomes even more win on bigger pulls
186,5k + 18%
34,5k
38,4k + 11%```eb scales somewhat exponentially with target-count until you hit the 5echo per fok cap
bleak spoke
like 10-15 targets i guess
wait what is the range on EB
cuz that could be part of the gain on "prio" too
cuz sim targets are hard stacked
all the eb damage will hit the main target
marble hemlock
will i get banned for having a keyboard macro that spams a /cancelaura blood-soaked macro during aoe? 😛
marble hemlock
thats droping 2eb tho, no?
vestal wren
also its 2eb not 1 XD
marble hemlock
ah kk
vestal wren
i just suck at labling
marble hemlock
can you run a 3min bloodlusted singletarget on both of those?
vestal wren
sure
bleak spoke
is the third trait blightbrone
in the second one
@marble hemlock if you cancel aura blood soaked would you just keep getting the crit buff lmao
bleak spoke
man
vestal wren
but it will very likely just reflet the diffrence in st trait
bleak spoke
macro that to fok
vestal wren
ye, its kinda "the st value of the trait"
marble hemlock
yeah, i didnt expect anything else
just wanted to see how big of an improvement it is
just having a single ttk
bleak spoke
hmmm 4% is a bit
marble hemlock
thats dd-levels in a raid-setup
marble hemlock
oh yeah, wanted to say something about that earlier
i was thinking about playing some exsang
if i get my hands on a galecallers
bleak spoke
i have a 440 galecaller's but idk if that's good enough 
marble hemlock
i remember playing 3ss+galecallers+ct as nelf on tournament realm
vestal wren
same with exsang:
sim:https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/nuP6wmvVGvLous31yJMp4J
bleak spoke
ah
vestal wren
suprisingly close
vestal wren
ye for both
bleak spoke
or just 1
marble hemlock
the interesting part isnt
the difference between those 2 gearsetups
but the higher st dps for exsang vs tb
vestal wren
^
marble hemlock
not surprising in a bloodlusted fight
bleak spoke
yeah i guess
vestal wren
then lets drop bl
marble hemlock
id expect tb to win out over exsang in a non BL fight
bleak spoke
likely the case yeah
but with a galecallers it could be different maybe
have you seen dratnos's sin setup from kr last season seli
marble hemlock
the thing about galecallers is that it works very well with 3ss+ct
bleak spoke
where to beat the fear raptor he went 3 ss bbi eb np and exsang
marble hemlock
i mean
marble hemlock
thats my kr setup
marble hemlock
😄
bleak spoke
did you not actually turn bl off >_>
vestal wren
na, i had vr instead of TB
marble hemlock
but they had twice the dmg on fluids
vestal wren
wrong number for talent row
marble hemlock
psure i had a 430 galecallers at some point, no idea if i wanna restore just for that
vestal wren
bleak spoke
this is w/o lust
bleak spoke
so it's like actually less behind without lust than it's ahead with lust
vestal wren
0.7% seems like not a lot
bleak spoke
but this is also a 3 minute kill timer which is pretty good for exsang
marble hemlock
thats why i wanted a 3min timer, cause its ideal situation for exsang
the fact that even in ideal circumstances its barely better than TB
makes me question its validity in more real-world scenarios
vestal wren
tb is easier to play out, so why bother 😛
bleak spoke
exsang to burst giga prio targets seems okay thugh
vestal wren
on big pulls def. but lowe pull sizes idk
marble hemlock
the problem with exsang on aoe is the fact that you dont pandemic garrote
bleak spoke
like i'm thinking the pull after say the 2nd boss in kings with the tide
where you need to slap the shit out of one of the spectral bolters
marble hemlock
exsang prio comes at an aoe/cleave cost
due to having to pandemic garrote the prio target
tb doesnt
bleak spoke
but if you really need something to die in like 15-20 seconds
well i geuss if you really needed something to die in 15-20 seconds you'd bring a fire mage regardless but
just a thought experiment i guess haha
marble hemlock
youd have to do a burst comparison
between tb/exsang in a, say, 30sec fight
that still has 3targets
bleak spoke
it feels like exsang bursts harder
marble hemlock
and im pretty sure with bote in the mix
bleak spoke
but that might not be true
marble hemlock
tb comes out ahead
bleak spoke
oh
marble hemlock
actually
marble hemlock
exsang bote ticks are pretty nasty
bleak spoke
yeah
that's what i was thinking
that if you did a kinda janky rotation
cuz you can vendeta mid subterfuge casts
marble hemlock
ahhhhh
bleak spoke
like open g1 g2 v g1
marble hemlock
why cant the item restoration have a search window
or atleast show more than 10 results per page
bleak spoke
rupture and then exsang bote
that would slap the living shit out of your exsang target
yeah
and then even the damage amp window you still have the crit buff for 4 seconds
after* the amp
marble hemlock
well, its difficult to say whats the best way to play in a lot of scenarios with bote
for example i currently play around bote
by spamming fok during the crit-dmg increase
and then doing regular envenom/fok prio during the remainder of it
i have no idea if thats correct
it just "feels" right
bleak spoke
i think in this one you definitely bote after hitting exsang because the damage amp window is significantly smaller?
like it feels right to me to put smaller windows inside larger ones kinda
and since an exsang full pandemic garrote is 12s? then the whole thing would fit neatly
and after the window runs out if you still need to extend the burst you'd vanish then
as usual
like g1 g2 v1 g1 r1 exsang blood mutis envenoms on target 1, vanish and then actually just garrote a third target instead of doing a pandemic garrote on main target
because at least if it's a trash pull even in a decently large key it's hard to believe that a prio target actually lives that?
marble hemlock
so theres 2 things, first youd play it differently based on whether you have vanish or not
if you do, you dont exsang early, you wait until the prio-target garrote hits pandemic timings, then vanish for pandemic garrotes into rupture/vendetta/bote/exsang
marble hemlock
if you dont have vanish
its an issue of how important quick prio is
i.e. if you need to blast a tides or void
youd probably not pandemic garrote the prio target and instead spread garrotes on 3 targets
bleak spoke
yeah i meant like giga giga prio
which is why i brought up the tides after 2nd boss of kings
marble hemlock
ultimately the pandemic garrote only gives you what, 3 more ticks?
thats ~100k dmg
marble hemlock
well you just cc the tides and blast the hexpriest without it :p
tropic ocean
@vestal wren is that just dropping vendetta in what u tagged me? cuz i think on 6 target 1 min highest dps should be g g g r vanish g g g bote spam fok
tropic ocean
💪🏿
marble hemlock
well, lets see if its worth it
bleak spoke
bless
bleak spoke
have you not been getting lucky or just passing off your galecallers this season anyway seli
i feel like i've seen so many
marble hemlock
i just sold them
bleak spoke
we're bringing back exsang flawless 🙂
marble hemlock
cause its a shit trinket for tb
but with exsang it might have merit
just feels awful
to have a
45sec cd exsang
1min cd galecallers
1m30sec cd bote
2min cd vendetta/vanish
tropic ocean
idk even if galecallers made exsang way better than tb i'd never play it
imagine being tied to a position
tropic ocean
oh really
but then the question would be is it worth over another trinket that not only static buffs exsang
bleak spoke
i mean you probably still don't want to
marble hemlock
@solar rose youre not even playing assa, dont tell me what to do 
bleak spoke
hey flawless is your monk geared yet
bleak spoke
MAN WHAT
sharp viper
how'd you even get banned
bleak spoke
MAN
i guess that's the plan huh
just ban all the people who haven't quit yet
because game's so shit if you're still playing you must be rmt :^)
marble hemlock
thats not exactly how that works :p
bleak spoke
i know but this is a good meme
marble hemlock
i just hate how fractured the m+ community is right now, between alliance/horde split, na/eu split, mdi/non-mdi split
theres not many people left to play with
bleak spoke
just expressing my annoyance over how on a good week last season like this one
legit there were so many teams people were trading players
for a better comp
solar rose
make NA account seli I play tank now
bleak spoke
BIG TRUE
marble hemlock
make EU account
and i have an entire team for you
also i dont have to lose my #1 title and glad mounts
bleak spoke
wait actually make an eu account and do that so i have content to watch flawless
marble hemlock
anyway, exsang blows
opener isnt really any different than TB one in terms of numbers
and playing around exsang CD is a pain
bleak spoke
yeh tb being a shorter cd definitely makes it more flexible
you know what they should do
marble hemlock
do i drop 200k gold on scrap parts to fish for a high ilvl punch-card? :<
bleak spoke
change exsang to work on all your active bleeds
marble hemlock
that would be broken
marble hemlock
just have a trait that increases rupture damage
bleak spoke
would actually be so disgusting
marble hemlock
so multidotting is actually worth it
bleak spoke
yeah a trait that increases rupture damage would be nice
that doesn't have a payoff in the future like sob does
marble hemlock
i hate how im a multidot spec and any passive cleave spec like outlaw, dh or firemage outdps me on 2-4target unless i have big CDs
4k per rupture tick with 65% mastery
thats just pathetic
bleak spoke
honestly should have made sob something like each rupture increases the damage of rupture by X amount
and not increases agi
man they could have done so much cool stuff with that
but it's an uninspiring amount of agility for a spec that doesn't get much off agility to begin with
harsh sphinx
do you still use lurkers at all
modest tendon
A 420 one would probably still be better than a lot of 430+ trinkets, a 430 font is likely a lot better though
tropic ocean
don't think theres any point using lurkers now when you have access to a lot of higher trinkets that don't put pressure on your healer
vestal wren
It seems that 3 bleeds are enough to sustain the energy over 1 minute
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/6N4XFR6vaovX3MAMz5WvMF
slight dps gain
(8 targets 1 min fok spam sim)
but given the minor gain,
I would argue to keep 4 bleeds up
marble hemlock
yeah
especially considering that the moment a mob has higher health that isnt ruptured yet, applying one to it means more prio-dmg on that specific target, cutting down the kill time despite having lower overall
vestal wren
my argument would be consistency, given the energy lvl seems to go down quite a bit successively at the end
while with 4 you sustain a high energy lvl
marble hemlock
yeah
i usually maintain 4+, and then re-rupture whatever is highest hp early to ensure ill never fall behind
vestal wren
the damage difference on prio target is negligible
hasty wing
Hey, probably answered somewhere but can you run master assassin in m+ or is subterfuge miles better?
vast forum
subterfuge is always better
hasty wing
Would you be able to go into detail if possible
lethal heart
silencing 3 targets instead of 1 is better
and it synergises really well with shrouded suffocation
vast forum
subterfuge is also better on singletarget on short fights if you have multiple ss
modest tendon
It sims as high or higher on 3 minute patchwerk than dd from what iv seen
vestal wren
ss is a extremely powerfull trait given it just works everywhere and is super high tuned even on pure st
how good ma/subter is will come down to your azerite picks.
With 3 ss its quite guaranteed that subterfuge is stronger then ma on st
pliant wing
Hey guys, on fortified week, better go 3 SS/ 1 EB or 2SS/2EB ?
rigid mango
3 ss 1 eb
inner sonnet
in PvP, what traits are worth going for? SS, NP, DD, TtK?
pliant wing
Thanks ! i guess SS is always better than EB so ?
inner sonnet
my bad, didn't see that there 😅
lyric galleon
For Fortified do you guys use proximity or focused resolve?
rigid mango
Never focused resolve?
tropic ocean
@lyric galleon prox in packs unbridled at boss
lyric galleon
@tropic ocean thank you
echo hornet
hey there, sneaky friends. question. outlaw > assa in keys 24/7? or they are +- the same?
arctic walrus
Sin has more room for error and has the potential of doing less. However on an even playing field it’s not that far behind
timber meadow
assa does more pad i feel like
outlaw i think is better suited for prio dmg with aoe
but iono
vestal wren
sin sacrafices a lot of priority damage for doing aoe, outlaw does not do that
strange python
Does it really tho?
arctic walrus
Yes
rigid mango
It does.
Unfortunatly that's how it works
Sin has a higher potential dps overall, but it sacrifces st and prio to reach that
Outlaw does all 3 without really sacrificing anything
That being said, sin is far from terrible, outlaw is just really good.
strange python
I mean I am just thinking in general. Wouldn’t vendetta TB with ttk envenom be okay for priority target?
rigid mango
But what to you do outside of that?
strange python
Fok rupture?
rigid mango
And that does great prio?
arctic walrus
“Sacrificing” is the key here. You forego np and dd for things like SS and EB
rigid mango
Sin has good prio with cds up yeah.
arctic walrus
This tanks your st while driving up your aoe
rigid mango
But outlaw has it with each blade flurry
strange python
Oh I see what you meant by that now
rigid mango
And even then, picking TTK would be a loss to overall
vestal wren
to reach similar prio damage in big pulls you essentially would need to go 3xttk and MA.
each pick has its own up and downsides
rigid mango
Outlaw is like running 3 eb ss, but also having ttk's
arctic walrus
If you go for an inbetween hybrid build, you do worse than either one, so generally you full commit to one build
rigid mango
If you're looking at big pulls with prio
strange python
Gotcha I’m not really thinking that way. I guess it’s different.
lone junco
we back on the CT train? awesome.
rigid mango
We aint
lone junco
afk 3 weeks.
strange python
Lol
arctic walrus
rigid mango
I tried 
strange python
Isn’t this week good for CT? Teeming with a mad tank who likes to pull a lot
rigid mango
Outlaw just has the damage, the damage profile and the toolkit to be "the" m+ spec
vestal wren
i assume subtlety could compete if it had an aoe trait
but as is, sin has trade offs that outlaw does not have
rigid mango
Outlaw just runs what's best for ST
With 1 trait accounting for their aoe
If sin could just run 1 eb and it be as strong as 2-3, maybe it'd be diff.
strange python
I was running 1xEB 1xBI 1xTTK 3xSS it felt nice
vestal wren
kinda bad designed/balaned if you compare it to other traits
rigid mango
Yeah, that's a good build
strange python
Might have to tweak a bit for tyrannical. No time warp = no dps for bosses.
tropic ocean
use drums
rigid mango
You're playing one of the best builds for boss damage so idk about that one
strange python
Trinkets. Onto trinkets. I’m running galecaller and dice
rigid mango
GCB sucks.
arctic walrus
Especially in a key
strange python
But 450
arctic walrus
450 ilvls of a pointless stat than you can get 0 use of
bleak spoke
Yeah the power of haste is in energy regen
But in aoe the spec turns on via the passive and not haste
strange python
I dunno I have to find another trinket
Well I wouldn’t really say I can get 0 use of. It helps with the regen when it’s ST fight where I cannot have multiple ruptures on.
arctic walrus
Still run the high risk of the tank moving
brave vector
What exactly is the reasoning behind GCB being bad? I just finished running a few sims and at equal item levels it’s 3rd in terms of mythic only trinkets begins spygass and dice respectively. Just clunky to use? Also does anyone actually use font in m+?
Behind***
arctic walrus
In a sim, everything is standing still
Which doesn’t happen in the real world
And simming for sin isn’t that accurate
frigid sleet
I wish font wouldnt take us out of stealth
scarlet sequoia
why
frigid sleet
to be more flexible with pug tanks
strange python
Couldn’t get azshara to drop so no issue
hasty fiber
how many of you guys prefer font+coral over coral+inkpod?
hasty fiber
any fight in raids
chilly marsh
only usedit for ashvane 3 shield strat
bleak spoke
I think if you have a wealth of trinket selection font coral sims the best
verbal radish
Seen a lot of m+ sin azerite talk lately. My azerite is mostly 445 and DD, etc. Single target build. Is it worth it to use 415 azerite that has SS EB instead of the 445? Or just resign yourself to being stronger single target weaker aoe until the high ilevel azerite rolls around
rigid mango
Single target build sucks for m+.
little cedar
is this ( Pawn: v1: "Assassination Rogue ST": Class=Rogue, Spec=Assassination, Agility=2.86, CritRating=5.55, HasteRating=5.68, MasteryRating=5.52, Versatility=5.42, Dps=14.37, OffHandDps=1.52 ) ok?
little cedar
well u can set values
rigid mango
Pawn doesn't account for the value stats increase and decrease when replaced by others
It's an arbitrary value that is incorrect as soon as you equip 1 item
verbal radish
So, Zine, you're saying it's worth it to use lower ilevel SS/EB for M+. Just confirming 🙂
arctic walrus
If you have entirely neither ss or eb yeah
verbal radish
Thanks.
scarlet sequoia
np
shut garnet
raz do u have that much gear every tier?
; (
i wonder if they're gonna make assa less gear dependant actually
to stay on topic
arctic walrus
Gear comes naturally when you're reclearing from an early point in the tier, every week 
frosty talon
So we trust only top gear sims via raidbots if im right?
vestal wren
no, you can run simc local too, but make sure its the latest version
frosty talon
Ok, Is it accurate to trust the dungeon slice for mythic+ gear too?
tropic ocean
No
meager nebula
Not for sin no
frosty talon
Im asking mostly for the trinkets tbh
vestal wren
you can use the dungeon slice variation i created and pinned in #wow-general
arctic walrus
Or just tell us your options
vestal wren
its probably better to use more specific sims and gear towards what you need rather then what will result in best damage over a entire dungeon
frosty talon
430 dice, 435 eye, azzeroks 455+Socket, gilded plumel 440+socket, inkpod 435, coral 430, font 430, gallecallers 430
Will use your slice Variation Fuu ty man
chilly marsh
did you test the trinkets @vestal wren for those m+ sims
frosty talon
Not yet but will do it at work atm
hazy geyser
so i just installed MaxDps Rotation Helper to see SIMC sets up the rotation for sims and i noticed something weird during non vendetta windows they want me to pool energy until like 130 before i use envenom even during toxic blade windows are you supposed to pool energy before every envemon? that just sounds like you lose soo much dps from waiting
nimble tinsel
The play style of sin in general is very heavily based around pooling, yes. Ideally you should have pooled leading into TB windows so you are GCD capping for those, but essentially any other time you should be pooling.
As long as you don't cap energy, you aren't losing damage.
shut garnet
preferably you shouldnt cast TB on 25 energy and pool to 130
you'd cast at say, 110 and youd get by 125-130 by the time gcd is over
hazy geyser
when do you guys use clf / bote before vendetta and toxic respectively?
plain moon
Wait I thought there was a convo yesterday about bote where it’s Vend>tb>bote
nimble tinsel
BotE > TB makes the most sense since it maximizes GCD's with all buffs active, and the last I recall from sims was the best way, but I wasn't part of yesterday's convo on it if sims were provided showing otherwise.
tropic ocean
I dont think the differemce will be huge
rigid mango
The convo was just me and vel thinking differently
Whic one's first won't be a big diff
but we're both too lazy to sim it 😄
arctic walrus
rigid mango
nimble tinsel
Oh so the usual lmao
minor thicket
Hey guys quick question if I have more than one piece of gear with echoing blades does it stack?
rigid mango
yes
minor thicket
Does it makes sense to select it twice
vestal wren
it stacks well
nimble tinsel
Largely depends on what you are trying to accomplish and what other options you have for if it makes sense or not, but generally it is a strong choice for anything related to AoE.
vestal wren
going from 2 to 3 traits is essentially a ~15% damage win in high target aoe scenarios f.ex
minor thicket
Primarily for my M+ build
vestal wren
on average pulls its less of a win so probably closer to ~5%
so efficiency highly depends on pull sizes
grave elk
what essences do ppl take for m+ again?
minor thicket
Yea I got a cool of righteous resolve Helm and it looks pretty good and allows me to keep 2 traits of EB and all 3 SS
Cowl
grave elk
!essences
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
vestal wren
blood major + lucid + x usually
grave elk
dang i was thinking blood was only for outlaw. but cool now i know it really needs to be my full focus atm
vestal wren
blood seems the best essence hence it scales best in aoe
grave elk
and is there a point in which u should pop it? or just use it on big pulls and make sure i save it for boss?
chilly marsh
put 4 dots pop and fok spam
vestal wren
it has a fairly low cd, so it should be easy to plan around
grave elk
oh ive been using it just on cd. i never thought about applying my dots then doing it. cuz im assuming it makes the bleed ticks crit also?
or higher chance
arctic walrus
higher chance
but if you're also spending those gcds of blood applying bleeds you lose a lot of damage
chilly marsh
Rank 3: Each time any ally within 40 yds uses an Azerite Essence, gain 474 Main stat and 92 Haste for 20 sec.
The ally who used an Azerite Essence also gains 11 Haste for 20 sec.
so if i got it right in riad when 10+ peopeluse clf
everyoen gains 10x stats?
realy busted
uneven summit
So looking at people, alot are differentiating between blood major and condensed, what´s the dealio (ST wise)
chilly marsh
920+ haste
tropic ocean
@uneven summit u pretty much only use blood for zaqul and queen due to the nature of the fight
uneven summit
aight
tropic ocean
raw dps clf>>>>blood
uneven summit
Azshara condensed is more viable i assume
arctic walrus
no, blood
chilly marsh
you guys are using blood zaqul for adds ?
tropic ocean
Azshara is literally the best fight for blood as it lines up with all choke points in the fight
uneven summit
so who write pretty much only for zaqul and queen xD
tropic ocean
Me
uneven summit
why*
tropic ocean
cuz its true?
tropic ocean
U only use blood if u do delirium adds
chilly marsh
oh mages and sps does it my guild
tropic ocean
Then use clf
chilly marsh
im the dummy spank ahaha
arctic walrus
You can use blood on zaq even without delirium realms, pretty sure you get multiple uses inside dmg amps
clf still viable I suppose
arctic walrus
yeah blood is always the way to go for m+
hoary crown
Damn, the new raid trinkets does not look too good 😦
Hate the rng of getting a bis trinket from chest
arctic walrus
bleak spoke
does anyone have the list of trinkets
arctic walrus
probably on wowhead
fleet whale
is the top one only giving int placeholder?
bleak spoke
huh
i found the azerite at least but it looks lke placeholders
cuz they still have the ep traits
and are the same as the ep pieces
i figure they'd change them
fleet whale
they will eventually, same thing happened in 8.2 ptr
another thing, the leather set is no longer a robe. The normal colors actually look decent
and yeah, i think that trinket is gonna be usable by any dps spec, considering the tank trinket seems to be based off the cloak too
verbal knot
Manifesto max level play = Sprint out, pop manifesto, shadowstep back to boss, let second effect hit in melee clump? lol
if melee can use it anyways
Still losing uptime though ehh
worn geyser
i have perhaps a dumb question, but is the m+ sim in raidbots a reliable source to tell what trinkets i should be running ?
shy dust
Are coral + font still a good choice for Azshara?
hasty fiber
yes, youll be los’ most of the fight so if you squeeze font in here and there, it will be good, i personally like drippling ink pod cause its one less thing i worry about getting into my rotation
arctic walrus
Switch? No. Throw a low cp bleed? Sure
heavy haven
what order of stuff is everyone doing to stay alive in delierium
arctic walrus
Vial, cloak, vial. Then use healthstone and pot on last echo
cobalt pelican
on a related but off topic note
is there an overcap% on the tents to come out of delirium that kills you
and does anyone know the actual value
if so
honest needle
also do u guys use feint on ashvane
arctic walrus
I've had them kill me, yeah
cobalt pelican
cause i kms'd like 3 times on prog and i still didn't know why i died
honest needle
or should healers just keep me up
arctic walrus
you feint if there's a big bubble coming in, or a rapid succession
But yeah fairy I stopped going for tentacles if I want to force myself out
usually find a purple puddle, or stop damage as to not leech
cobalt pelican
hm
seems safer
the boss died before i actually figured out what was really going on
i wish stuff like that was properly documented
sand whale
got any logs? just check it
if it seems liek you're getting 1 shot from the slam chances are you got clipped by the other 1
arctic walrus
Sometimes yeah if you take both you die
honest needle
should i b using unbrid fury pot still if i have coral n stuff with ink pod or shout i use crit bot ?
arctic walrus
always unbridled
thorn fjord
hey guys couldnt find any recent posts on it... Does nothing personal dmg stack?
arctic walrus
Just like every other damage portion of traits, yes
thorn fjord
ok cool... so then im assuming the energy regen doesnt
arctic walrus
correct
thorn fjord
awesome thanks
olive egret
I've got TB up with garrote at 11 seconds left, rupture at 13 - whats the play? Do I wait to reapply rup and gar within pandemic range and then go for TB or is there another play?
cobalt pelican
press tb instantly, use spare combo points on envenom during the tb and ensure you refresh both bleeds before they fall regardless of tb debuff
olive egret
That's what I've been doing but usually only get 2 env in before having to reapply when if I'd have waited to TB after reapplication I could've probably gotten 3 env off in TB window
Sounds like it wouldn't be a net gain to wait, though
cobalt pelican
waiting is never a gain unless you can see into the future and guarantee that the seconds you delay do not accumulate to a tb cast l ost
arctic walrus
If you wait ~5 seconds for energy/reapplying bleeds
after doing that 5 times, you've missed a whole cast of tb
arctic walrus
Over the whole fight
olive egret
Right. That makes sense
arctic walrus
it's even less seconds if you consider the uptime as whole
And clearly, a missed tb cast (and all 9 seconds of its value) is not worth more than getting 1 extra env in a single tb
shut pasture
How good is crucible major for Tyrannical?
arctic walrus
Why run it when blood exists
cobalt pelican
and if you really wanted boss damage just play clf
flame just kinda ends up like you're sacrificing a lot of aoe for a little bit of st compared to blood
blood does feel kinda like butt on some bosses in m+ gear setups though, like you don't have a huge burst window so if you're not actually critting empowered garrotes it feels like it does nothing sometimes
cobalt pelican
like i'd super consider clf in kr this week
not really a question that can be answered with one catchall, if you have good healers you can kill it in like 6:30 which is like 30k dps per player or less
if you have bad healers you might need to kill it in 3 minutes which would put a much higher demand on damage
and there's variations all the way up and down the gradient of that
shut pasture
@cobalt pelican @arctic walrus no blood is why
arctic walrus
Like fairy said. If you desperately need ST damage, you run clf at that point. Otherwise just iris
flame will just be both a worse clf and a worse iris
muted cove
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/hcLzVwFamyNbdtMW/#fight=16&playermetrictimeframe=today&playermetriccompare=statistics can somebody tell me if i made any major mistakes on ashvane? theres only 5ish pulls but I feel like i made a couple mistakes
scarlet swift
Is sin on orgo only worth if you have 3 EB?
timber meadow
on prog my guild def. needed more boss dmg for a while so if you have the add dmg, it may be worth just going assa to play the prio dmg role
cuase like if you're gonna wanna do dmg to adds you may as well just go outlaw? idk tho
cause outlaw does really amazing cleave dmg without losing an ounce of priority dmg
(actually gains prio dmg)
arctic walrus
EB build for pure aoe, outlaw for inbetween, pure ST sin for boss dmg
hasty fiber
seductive i still dont have gorak tuls shoulders after 2 re rolls today im sad
vast kelp
can someone explain to me why im dying thru cloak here?
arctic walrus
because that straight up doesn't work?
vast kelp
its shadow damage and ive cloaked it before
steep obsidian
dusk onyx
Am i right that i dont have to upgrade benthic boots and belt cause the % doesnt go up!? At least get them up last!?
drifting cloud
you gain pretty much same dps whatever slot you upgrade
echo hornet
hey there. i`m at 2 garrote, 1 fan of knives and 1 twist azerites. and i can get 1 more fan + twist, or 1 more fan with double doze. what should i go for?
for M+
drifting cloud
1st one, double dose is among the worst traits for m+
echo hornet
but i should aim for 3 garrote, 2 fan 1 twist?
acoustic prawn
Do you guys run condensed or blood of the enemy on mythic ashvane?
modest tendon
3 garrotes are everything, then 1-2ebs
thin patio
vestal wren
eb is super good in aoe
ss is good in st and mt with some use on aoe
young portal
Is it normal to have Vendetta on ~5 second cd when the second echo spawns when running VoP minor and using it on the first?
drifting cloud
might depend how fast you blow the first one up
young portal
Aye its dying fairly quickly, that might be it
drifting cloud
since the boss doesnt do anything until the echoes die, then continues his spellq
afaik
cursive solstice
for raid is it good to drop one double dose for a piece of gear that has nothing personal and overwhelming power
drifting cloud
sim it, we cant tell you with that limited info
drifting cloud
but if pieces are same ilvl and you have 0 np, yes its probably an upgrade
if I had to guess
young portal
I think you're right Ryler and the boss does carry on once add is dead, thanks for the input
echo hornet
hey there. saw assa in high M+ using not poison bomb, not crimson tempest but Hidden blades. is it actualy super good? and i was playing rogue the wrong way?
or do i need high enough skill to utilize hidden blades well enough since it`s a stacking talent
rigid mango
No, HB is bad.
echo hornet
so it`s still crimson for fortified and poison for tyranical?
rigid mango
Just use PB for both
CT is harder to play and a more based on what you need in your group when minmaxing
PB always works and will probably just work out better for you
echo hornet
thx
strange python
hidden blades is good if you want to prio dmg targets rather than keep crimson tempest rolling
rigid mango
What?
strange python
or if you need big burst on aoe adds
strange python
lol
vestal wren
HB is actually slightly stronger then PB in big aoe fights
strange python
rank 1 assa rogue in world uses HB for certain situations, that says it all
rigid mango
That says fuckall.
You have to be pulling insane fok numbers to make HB actually do more damage in overall than PB
scarlet sequoia
oh shit
rigid mango
PB that's supposed to be a ST or low target oriented
instead of heavy aoe like HB
It's not much worse, but it is worse
But I guess if someone good uses it, it has to be good 
strange python
you're free to keep your views, i cba arguing
scarlet sequoia
lethal heart
@scarlet sequoia saw you blast against cervantes yesterday 
scarlet sequoia
hell yeah
scarlet sequoia
was just doing weekly win
lethal heart
😄
inner sonnet
Does Vendetta buff the damage an enemy takes from the Inkpod trigger?
edgy pawn
No
royal lantern
sour wasp
damn, zine went ham
marble hemlock
youd just need someone who plays HB to log one of their runs, check how many stacks they got over the course of the dungeon, then you know how much of a dps increase the talent actually is
on paper, even with 3EB, all HB does is give you slightly more frontloaded aoe due to the stacking mechanic, but overall it remains a single-digit dps increase, and one thats closer to PB in terms of overall value than you might think
morningwind has been playing HB a lot in the last few weeks, but then again hes pretty much exclusively played CT the entire last push week
going by this log (the only one i could find this short notice) where he didnt swap to CT yet, he got 825stacks worth of HB
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/pVPrZ9aDynNzqb6m#fight=12&source=21&type=auras&ability=270070
as in, 16500% worth of a single foks damage
at 454casts and 1,981target hits, that comes out to be 4.3target hit per fok on average
so putting the 11k average (which is already affected by the bonus, its just for easier calculation) together with the 4.3 targets hit and the 16500% increase
we are looking at 7.8mil worth of damage gained from HB
he did 108mil damage in total in that run
so you could say that HB gave him ~6-7% of a damage increase
in a dungeon like FH, PB usually clocks out at 5%
CT at 10-12% (but it comes at an opportunity cost)
so HB is by no means "insane" compared to PB
leaden garden
Hey guys! I play outlaw in m+ but was wondering if asa might be more fun,and viable, with EB traits?
marble hemlock
defintiely viable, yes
leaden garden
Cool, cheers
arctic walrus
I’d say one ss is more valuable than any eb traits so just make sure to have that
leaden garden
Gottcha, I think I can have one SS and still 2-3 eb
leaden garden
@arctic walrus I can go for 3x EB and 3x SS, is that good or is it better to just have one SS ?
marble hemlock
arctic walrus
Ss>eb Keep the 3 ss and see what you can drop 2 of the ebs for
cloud sandal
any1 else hate when tank never leaves combat
and just keeps going
tilts the shit out of me
nevr restealth
dense cedar
Use shadowmeld @cloud sandal
cloud sandal
i play undead omegalul
dense cedar
rip
distant lava
dusky bronze
Hi guys, i was wondern when people do take 2x Loyality to the End trait while raiding, at what boss... or should i always go 2x Loyality,2x DD, 1x NP, 1x TK,
dark crag
dusky bronze
Well, i know to sim myself, but Loyality to the end will always be behinde in SIM DPS, so maybe there is a reason ppl take it
If i followraidbots, i should just go 3x DD 3x NP
dark crag
Have you tried setting it to more than 0
dusky bronze
setting what to 0? :S
dusky bronze
welll... in that case i dont know how to sim 😛
ah, its probably only worth, if 3-4x ppl take it
and how much % haste are you guys aming for, Myhtic raiding
nimble tinsel
Whatever the sims tell us to be at.
And yes, loyal is extremely strong at full stacks, but likely still going to win on equal ilvl azerite gear at 2-3 as well. Simming is the only definitive answer though.
lofty wagon
what is the better horde races for assassiation rogue?
left moth
raidbots tells me to put mastery gems in all my slots, thats so weird, are people even doing that for raiding? i had crit gems before
dense cedar
Did you get any gear with crit on it recently?
left moth
not rly, i never simmed for mastery gems before tbh, thought noone uses them xD https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oFB948xMkkwwcFZQfGR9rv
tropic ocean
You have no loyal trait so
Mastery will naturally be higher compared to other rogue‘s sims
left moth
hm k, so you think i should listen to the sim and gor for the masteryß
tropic ocean
Yes
left moth
i mean i have a 450 shimmerscale but i rly wanna use 3 dd, also my guild is not consistant with their loyal traits 😄
tropic ocean
Most rogues dont socketed mastery because they have behemoth chest which gives them free 500? Mastery or smth
So other stat weights are higher for them
left moth
ah that makes so much sense 😄
tropic ocean
You can sim ur char with behemoth chest and loyal trait and it will probably tell u crit or haste then
cloud sandal
!essences
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
left moth
yeah okay, i think i rather run 3dd instead of 2dd and 1 loyal, probably more consistant
arctic walrus
What’s inconsistent about loyal
tropic ocean
The more they die the better it gets 😛
shy axle
how do you decide if you use 2 Eb or only one for dungeon A or B
for real, I´d say KR def only 1, but idk about the rest
tropic ocean
Depends on affix dungeon and groupcomp
In kr with the right pieces even 0 eb
For fortified always 1-2 for fort teeming probably always 3 except kr/tos
If you have dh outlaw sin might reduce aoe inc st/prio if you are boomie dh might increase aoe
shadow talon
what would be better for overall dps output for tyranical week ? single or multitarget spec ?
arctic walrus
You never go single target spec in keys
tropic ocean
U never go st