At that point you're talking just running GCB too
#assassination
shut garnet
yea but the balance factor i suppose would be the complete lack of st damage
sorta like outlaw
rigid mango
well, it wouldn't lack ST either
You're essentially playing 3 ss CT with skyhigh mastery
pumping 3 traits into ST
shut garnet
yeah it has really nuts burst
rigid mango
but you're essentially not losing anything on aoe
just gaining
so u stack ST instead
TTK/NP
or something of the effect anyways
Like, it's a no-loss on ST and HUGE gain on aoe
shut garnet
yea exactly
shut garnet
i guess the only way it'd be possible is if they retuned the other bleeds
but thatd impact like
EVERY playstyle of sin
so thats no good
rigid mango
Let's put it like this
SS is really insane as it is
Imagine every 1 min you get to essentially burst 3 targets at once
with some of the highest burst possible
and every 2 min, that's 6 targets
Whilst simultaniously only gaining ST dmaage
It's nearly an entirely no loss situation
shut garnet
ok what about getting exang all the way to 2 mins
rigid mango
It's to the same effect of having CT under the effect of VW
shut garnet
MOST 2 min cds have broken effects
rigid mango
So sin is now a 2 min spec?
fun
noty
And it'd probably still be stupid good
Like, sin is good w/out cds as it is atm
imagine it being good neutral game
and fucking insane on CD's
It just can't happen
shut garnet
yeah im not complaining, its nice that sin has rly good aoe without having cds to use on it
but at the same time it just feels bad you have no cds to use on aoe
rigid mango
I prefer it that way
You're not limited to anything
Like yeah, I wish CT was better than it is
Which I'm hoping to see if it has potential
But not being bound to a big cd like firemages/udk's
or being bound at all like outlaw
Is something that makes the spec very enjoyable from my PoV anyways
shut garnet
yeah i definitely agree
however i feel like its lack of a consistent way/a way to burst huge packs at ALL makes the spec have a huge disadvantage compared to firemage/outlaw
which would be a very good upside of having exang do that, or at least idk have CT buffed or something
rigid mango
I mean you have that
You've got blood now
Which is super reliant burst aoe
Every spec has to have a weakpoint
Sin has one being super low time burst aoe
rigid mango
I mean at that point we're talking several 100k burst
shut garnet
idk i guess you've got a point, although i still feel like itd lose SLIGHTLY on ST compared to the current build with PB
rigid mango
it wouldn't
shut garnet
but im just not sure that % st loss accounts for
rigid mango
bec u'd just run 3 St traits
shut garnet
the HUGE % aoe gain
rigid mango
you don't need more aoe if u have CT 3 SS that exsang and bote
So essentially you're just stacking whatever you can ST
Fuck me, maybe even DD 
modest tendon
Ah ha a use for dd
shut garnet
im not sure how much gear enables that
ss/np/ow you can get off zaq helm, then blackwater for ss/ttk
is there a shoulder with dd ss?
modest tendon
I still don’t think dd would be very good
rigid mango
just saying it'd maybe be the play
modest tendon
Like maybe go SoB, ttk, bbi?
shut garnet
more aoe PepeLaugh
rigid mango
If u want that just go EB
modest tendon
It sims well on packs of 4/5
rigid mango
Yeah but you're missing the point
shut garnet
ok ok what if exang doing what i said had a mob cap
rigid mango
we're not talking 4/5
shut garnet
would that be balanced
rigid mango
mob cap of what
shut garnet
well i guess it would be slightly less op than having no cap at all
but yeah i guess 6 would still probably be the most optimal amount
and anything less than 4 wouldnt be worth it having a 2 min cd
modest tendon
I do like where this is going though, eb doesn’t work well into the spec very well, a spec based on 3 target cleave sounds pretty sick tbh
modest tendon
Do a lot of damage on 3 target cleave
What do you think needs to change though?
I think I like the single target rotation of assa more than the aoe one
Keep it as something like that
shut garnet
i just like the idea of exang and an actual functional bleed build
changing it so exang "spreads" and capping it at 3 kinda feels bad
it might be the most balanced it could be though
sand stream
Anyone having issues logging in atm?
distant lava
yes
rigid mango
sand stream
Ah sorry wrong channel indeed
inner sonnet
Is there much of a difference currently between Subterfuge and Master Assassin? It sims to within 1% for me, however I run 2 SS and a NP with a Font trink, so I'm quite bursty currently... just trying to switch a more consistent spec with TtK and DD, over SS which isn't as strong at higher ilvl
arctic walrus
If you have SS, you go subterfuge, simple as that. MA will pull ahead if you go without any SS traits
left moth
What do you guys think is the best race for Assasin overall right now? I made Troll back then for the haste but with all the essences and traits (3x Overwhelming Power) we have now haste is not needed anymore.
arctic walrus
human and maghar
left moth
maghar is the 102 random secondary stat right? hmm
modest tendon
Why not nelf?
left moth
im playing horde
rigid mango
For ST those are the best.
left moth
okay and when i do alot of m+ too, u think its still good to go maghar then? 😄 probably yes i guess
rigid mango
Or belf
arctic walrus
belf is fine as well
rigid mango
the diff small anyways
arctic walrus
^
Unless you're at the top end it won't matter
Even at the top end it doesn't matter much lol
left moth
yeah true, aight ty for the advice! 😄
scarlet hinge
Vulp!
arctic walrus
👉 🚪
broken crypt
lone junco
vale abyss
in the m+ leaderboards for assa I usually see people stacking crit/mas but latley I´ve been simming for hectic add cleave/ dungeon slice etc and the result shows crit/vers for mainstats. is this just a simming error or is vers just superior to mastery?
modest tendon
Pins
arctic walrus
There's no good metric for sin in terms of aoe simming
modest tendon
Mastery and versa are about the same
vestal wren
you can just do a multi target sim for aoe
slim olive
Like a 5 target 1.5 min patchwork?
vestal wren
hectic add cleave is terrible for simming aoe, hence it has movement events that essentially make you do nothing for a short while
but yes, abstract to the point you need, if 5 targets 1.5 min is what you want to evaluate ofc
vale abyss
I did that and its always Crit/vers as mainstat. I saw the pins and its just a little confusing since in Dungeons SS is mandatory and scaling with mastery and echoing blades would obvs scale with vers and you shouldnt have fight such a long fight killing one pack. The question is, is it still worth to role out the sims or just stack on mastery for full dmg potential on ss or go with the sims to ensure echoing blades deal more dmg
I might confuse myself but I cant get my head around this
brave vector
Do what the sim says
vestal wren
sims are as usefull as you can make them to
thats where that entire "sims are wrong" discussion root in
vale abyss
k
vestal wren
for sims, dont forget to configure them right f.ex. you might not want to use all raid buffs and bl on pull.
vale abyss
got it. thanks
strange python
so do you guys sim for m+? how what do you select i am lost. =/
vestal wren
you can use my custom script from #wow-general (pins)
arctic walrus
You drop haste, go for crit/mastery, 3 SS/1eb as baseline, blood, lucid/c&s
vestal wren
its probably the closest to a accurate m+ sim
brave vector
Do we use the damage/threat proc belt from benthic gear at all or is the threat boost big enough to cause a pull and die even with tricks?
brave vector
Cool ty
steady yacht
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > vers => mastery > haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
dapper moat
do people go to eternal palace still with SS talets and subterfuge, even on ST bosses, or more towards DD with MA?
arctic walrus
the ss build is just less damage
dapper moat
yeah..
arctic walrus
if you have the pieces, you go with dd
arctic walrus
Uh I wouldn't personally recommend that
You're gonna have to learn eventually
it's not even that bad? but that's just me
dapper moat
i rock with master ass?
arctic walrus
I mean yeah
you're not gonna keep 1 SS trait into the next expansion too because you love the rotation would you
so just learn it now 
dapper moat
true
cobalt flame
Most cases i dont even notice garrote giving only 1 cp since you have very high chance of getting 4cps from MAd mutilate
dapper moat
aster Assassin talented
Mutilate till 4+ combo points
Rupture
Mutilate if still in master assassin window
Garrote
Mutilate till 4+ combo points
Vendetta
Toxic Blade
Vanish
Envenom
Mutilate till 4+ combo points
Envenom
that the one with master assasin and without SS i guess, looks so weird to start with muti but gonna try it out, ty guys 🙂
modest tendon
MA is actually a lot easier to play than sub, you don’t have to worry about the empowered garrote at all
cobalt flame
Yeah at first i was like "meh" when i switched long ago but it is 100% easier to play
dapper moat
good point, payday
patent sail
Do i go sin or assa?
cobalt flame
The only frustrating thing is If u have like 30% crit or whatever , +50 from MA and 2 mutis in a row give you 2cp each
errant crater
assa
patent sail
Does assa have the same statweights as sin?
rigid mango
Yes they are
dapper moat
u mean sub?
patent sail
No there are sin guides and assa guides here so
cobalt flame
errant crater
i only know sin whats assa?
patent sail
Why arent they called the same then?
rigid mango
???
cobalt flame
shut garnet
"ASSA-SIN-ATION"
rigid mango
+1
cobalt flame
Lf ation guides
tropic ocean
< ation rogue
shut garnet
ation guides
arctic walrus
🔨 👉 @patent sail
tropic ocean
@patent sail think people are just lazy and sin is shorter than assa or assassination so yeah
dark crag
Ass rogues, if we want to be consistent
cobalt flame
Oh btw how does loayal to the end work Exactly ? Does it have range ? Is it blocked by LoS? Because on azshara progress sometimes when people die only few people get the buff
shut garnet
it should just be a flat out range around ppl
tropic ocean
it has a range yeah
shut garnet
not LoS-able afaik
worldly iron
LTE is #wow-general talk 
cobalt flame
inner sonnet
So I've got a HC helm of the inexorable tide from palace, first trait offered is DD or Undulating Tides, what's the pick?
arctic walrus
dd
unless you're doing pretty trivial content, then ut
if you know you'll be healthy
dapper moat
btw anyone here having problems to do different rotations in different situations like currently im trying ss+ct on mythics and MA on raids 😄 i botch so often even though i play like 10 hours a day 😄
rigid mango
Wouldn't recommend CT
arctic walrus
We can't play the game for you man, can only give you advice
dapper moat
yeah i know, my muscle memory is just too strong so hard to undo all the rotations 😄
verbal radish
Thanks for the feedback the other day to those who helped. Saw a few thousand dos upgrade. Still have to streamline things but it was better.
verbal knot
Got a legendary parse on mythic Ashvane awww yeeeeeaaaa
scarlet sequoia
Np
verbal knot
You guys are amazing thank you so much for all of your help
vernal fern
guys do you think I should save 200k for Cowl of Fluid Machinations ? Ive been rolling random head 5 times in a row and got the same shit piece 4 times in a row
Im still stuck on 2 SS traits for m+ and I need a third one
rancid bobcat
cowl isnt one you should be saving for is it
rancid bobcat
nvm i confused it with a different hat
arctic walrus
If you have no urgency, then just save
tropic ocean
I mean at current state
unless you desperately need it for progression raid
its more worth to save up for the m+ item than for raid item
(and depending on what shoulders you currently have)
rancid bobcat
yeah unless there are some bomb ass shoulders in the raid, holding for shoulders has been the play so far
same went for bod
also having imperfect azerite probably isn't what's holding you back 
so dont stress about it
left moth
yo i got a dumb question haha, so i changed to maghal ork, if i use the racial and get the 400 mastery after i alrdy applied my bleeds, are these bleeds still benefiting from the bonus mastery? or does it only work when i use it before applying the bleeds
arctic walrus
buffs are dynamic
left moth
which means it works? 😄
arctic walrus
Which means the buffs will adapt to any chance in stats that you have
Snapshotting no longer exists
left moth
aight perfect ❤
last jetty
So thank you for the discussion on Azerite traits yesterday for M+ & raids, the one thing I hadn't fully understood is having multiple Shrouded Suffocations and just wanted to see if the stacking damage is the main thing or something else,and if that is really worth it for having more than one for trash & boss. For trash I'm assuming you want to garrote each each baddie in the mob and potentially shadowmeld & vanish usage just making sure you will have vanish back up for boss, but outside the initial 21-23 seconds and then vanishing and reapplying it to 21-23 and not being able to re-use a stealth garrote would make the trait not usable? From my understanding a normal boss fight is a little over 2 minutes when everyone is above 40k and depending on key, and if you do your intro in the beginning you will only be able to get a second whole rotation of empowered garrotes in it, and had just wanted to see if the damage w/ it vendetta & exsanguinate or toxic blade is worth it
distant lava
SS is insane dmg
Even on full single target with SS it's not that far behind DD and MA
And in dungeons the trait is just insane
left moth
i got 3 ss and 44% mastery, can confirm its insane
bleak spoke
I opened up bloodmallet during uldir at some point and can confirm SS is insane
crisp hollow
do you guys rupture first fish on behemoth opener?
or just pump a couple envenoms into it
crisp hollow
that’s spicy
rancid bobcat
Fish dies too fast for anything meaningful so I just open on boss
Then swim to buff and step back
leaden belfry
Which trinket do you guys recommend for m+ ? i dont really know if sim for sin in m+ are correct; got Loaded dice 435 / Spyglass 440 / Azerokk heart 430 / Inkpod 430 / Golden plumage 430 socket / Tiny jar 430 socket and font/coral 415? ty :)
rigid mango
Plumage and spyglass probs
leaden belfry
Inkpod isnt that good with fortified ?
rigid mango
It's aight. Dunno exactly how good it is tbh
leaden belfry
alright i see, ty for your help
rancid bobcat
when i used inkpod it was usually around 3-4% of my damage
which is pretty good i think?
distant lava
leaden belfry
i feel your pain happened to me yesterday 
civic palm
tropic ocean
@leaden belfry it feels extra bad when u get declined by ppl with lower keys timed than you have
😄
civic palm
You were carried, clearly.
leaden belfry
which level was the key btw ?
rigid mango
#wow-general if you wanna talk about it (:
cerulean kernel
Any advice going into M queen? Hopefully I’m making into raid next week.
scarlet sequoia
yeah
arctic walrus
ty
rigid mango
np
tropic ocean
@cerulean kernel use blood of the enemy if you have it and install method decree weak aura or vodkaz package, helps a lot
cerulean kernel
@tropic ocean BotE Major + Lucid/CLF?
cerulean kernel
got it
tropic ocean
your essences
your azerite
and especially having 0 benthic gear
if you just farm benthic you will gain 2288 dps
😄
@dapper moat if you up your essences
another 3k
so just by getting benthic and essences you'll be at 45~46k dps
rest is azerite/sockets/weapon trinkets
grave elk
what raid azerite pieces are bis?
old knot
i missed the discussion regarding the CT M+ build with exsang. Does it out-perform EB/SS/TTK M+ build?
after i ggg, do i bote and just spam fok?
spam fok during the bote 5sec window, i mean
rigid mango
You do ggg rup bote fok spam for 9 sec
old knot
thank you, zine
dapper moat
I made error there @old knot i ment that i use ss+ 1 of those fok azerite talents. Not ct.
oak wasp
What’s a general good key bond for rouges I have my character from legion but now that I’m leveling my alts it feels weird to come back too since I uninstalled and now everything is blank
dapper moat
general good key binds u mean? for me it helps that i have 17 buttons on my mouse 😄 also good idea to check out some macros that can help u ease up the keysmashing. like macroing use trinket with vendetta (more in ravenholt guide). for me it helps that i bind garrotte,mutilate and rupture near each others so i can easilly press them with same finger fast and all in a row if nessacery. also i have toxic blade on mouse 3 and envenom on mouse 4 so it slide nicelly from 3 to 4 in a natural way.
cobalt pelican
ones you can press easily are good ones
light ferry
I have like 29% crit and don't have BotE. Right now I am running 1 Echoing Blades and 1 Double Dose, and most of the times, DD does more overall damage than EB. I can change that EB trait for a second DD, and even when I just run M+, I feel like I should do it. I don't know if my crit and not running BotE are minimizing the value of EB, or maybe I don't fight against many giga packs, but I feel that EB is underhelming. In my condition, should I do the change?
cobalt pelican
dd does more overall damage than eb in a dungeon situation?
you basically only mutilate bosses or minibosses or to finish off mobs for sanguine or something
so if dd is doing any significant amount of damage you're probably playing wrong
light ferry
Shouldnt I mutilate 3 mobs packs?
At 3 I only FoK to spread poisons, at 4 I change Mutilate for FoK
cobalt pelican
if you're playing any echoing blades fok at 2 or more targets
echoing blades and double dose are like direct counters to each other so if for some weird reason you're playing both the # of mobs might change
but realistically dd shouldn't be on your gear anywhere for dungeons
light ferry
I don't have anything better right now, wasnt my intention running both. So in my current situation, I don't know where should I start to use FoK xD
I will run some sims so I can see what it wants me to use.
light ferry
Rezan's Fury
cobalt pelican
eh, sounds better to me
specifically for dungeons at least
simming is probably for the best though, so go ahead with that, and hope for some better gear sometime soon
light ferry
Yep, I don't even have 3 SS yet...
timber meadow
on prog, is it reasonable for me to drop a rupture onto multiple adds when venomtongue is up
or does that take away too many globals
well not multiple adds but onto azshara herself and the other add in addition to venomtongue
cobalt pelican
it won't be a gain on venomtongue for the length of time she's alive if that's the question
timber meadow
okay
cobalt pelican
if you want to do it for overall feel free as long as you're making the kill time on the mob you need
timber meadow
right
light ferry
Rezan's isnt a big difference, but sims still use FoK over Mutilate with 2 targets when you have both EB and DD. Guess I should get Za'qul head asap. NP isnt probably the most optimal trait for M+, but having one is pretty strong on ST, doesnt fuck with EB and that azerite piece have SS and OP, so it will be an upgrade for sure.
cobalt pelican
pretty much anything is preferred really, dd is a super good trait it's just really awkward to have traits directly competing for the builder spot
and then one of them being completely dead when the other is being used
cobalt gyro
is this image cursed https://i.imgur.com/Ul8atIB.png
light ferry
I have another 435 piece with NP/FoK that I could change for the 420 DD/SS
But I would have just 1 SS so
Prob not the best idea
old knot
Does the added damage from EB for FoK get put into the % multiplier of HB?
old knot
so is it like (FoK+EBbonus) x HBmultiplier OR (FoK x HBmultiplier) + EBbonus?
odd rampart
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
arctic walrus
The latter @old knot
old knot
Thank you!
rancid spade
dr
tropic ocean
@timber meadow as you exactly know when venomtongue will spawn what u do is
channel font at the end of decree
put both dots on azshara and myrmidon
and then just blast venomtongue until its dead
refresh dots on myrmidon/azshara as u get to new add
@muted owl for raid the one that has double dose nothing personal and overwhelming power
muted owl
I think that's the one I took
shy axle
do people still favor the 2/2/2 build for m+ or did "most" people switch to 3 SS and only 1 EB? Didn`t bother with m+ for a while and trying to catch up
edgy pawn
rigid mango
3 ss + 1 eb + another eb/ttk/bbi is better ye
rigid mango
Well, it's just that you don't really need more than 2
3 ss 1 eb is just the base
Add another eb if you feel like you're lacking there
Or add ttk/bbi if you don't
shy axle
ah i see, thank you
do you still spamm fok and overcap cp with Eb and >5 targets present? or just use env/ct/rupture if needed
rigid mango
Still no reason to run CT, but you mongo fok at 6-8-10t with 3 2 1 eb
shy axle
thanks good to know
tropic ocean
@shy axle because of smaller pull sizes this season main reason for not going 3 eb
theres still circumstances where you'd go 3eb 3ss like fortified teeming ur or stuff like that
subtle musk
HI im new on rogue i want to ask what azerite talents i should pick and is some build for pvp+pve
rigid mango
The basic builds are in the guides
subtle musk
so Double Dose is for single target so for m+ is not worth is better take Eb or SS but for pvp is good ?
shut garnet
for pvp i'd ask in #pvp
for m+ yes, 3ss is most optimal
along with eb/ttk/bbi
and raiding is 2/3dd, 1NP, and whatever else i guess
the only other thing is stacking as many overwhelming powers as u can
minor thicket
best major and minor traits for M+?
arctic walrus
bote, lucid/c&s
minor thicket
what is cs
arctic walrus
conflict and strife
shut garnet
because iris scales better with bigger pulls
kind of
whereas bote catches up on ST
where iris is rly bad
strange python
Guys tell me in raid the sim is always right i know but in MM+ he tell me to put some haste that's good? cause i know mm+ is crit master right?
strange python
And how much crit?
rigid mango
40% ish
strange python
Holy i have 438ilvl and 29.2 crit &38.7 mast without any buff.... i'm far T-T
strange python
Can i send you a sim in whisp?
tropic ocean
@shut garnet feelycraft:from personal exp iris cant keep up on bigger pulls as well with bote on my char just the activation of bote already hits for 70-80k on each mob + the 5? gcd with buffed crit dmg where u fok in i don't have maths for it but the iris channel would need to be > than that, and personally ever since I got bote im leaving keys >60k in fortified and with iris I wasn't so idk 🤷
rigid mango
go for it
shut garnet
ya idk i wasnt trying to advocate for iris
imo its a really clunky and bad essence to use on any rogue spec
and blood just feels smoother to use
rigid mango
It's fine on outlaw
shut garnet
but i GUESS there is a reason why every sim says iris>blood for m+
tropic ocean
I basically only used iris when i didnt have blood
and sometimes used it in minor for tyrannical hard boss dungeons
since I dont have c&s r3
shut garnet
yeah exactly
tropic ocean
I got this idea from warrior discord actually cuz when using iris u need to calculate the channeltime as well
like iris will do x dmg over y seconds
need to weight it against blood doing x dmg over y seconds and blood seems far ahead
just the blood activation is already like 50%? of iris total dmg
and the minor of blood actually has value in aoe compared to iris as well
tropic ocean
Yeah
rigid mango
and you lose all crit and get haste
tropic ocean
So thats value compared to iris
Iris gives u nothing as sin in aoe
For me i started to reduce crit some and up mastery and still have a lot if crit from blood minor during the dungeon
Currently at 38 or 39% and most of the time during dungeon i have around 45-55%
Gotta log next runs to see factual uptime
arctic walrus
Is the discussion here why iris sims more than bote or..
minor thicket
whats the difference between hectic add cleave and dungeon slice when simming? Should i use hectic add cleave for M+ sim?
and if Im running SIn for M+ and want crit and mastery near 40% what should haste be around
rigid mango
Never use HAC for anything
minor thicket
oh really?
tame granite
haste is needed in m+ for assa
minor thicket
so dungeon slice instead?
tame granite
becasue of toxic wounds
rigid mango
haste is literally not needed at all
minor thicket
for M+
rigid mango
???
vestal wren
haste loses value in m+ bc. you have more bleeds up for the majority of time
tame granite
i have like 6% haste
rigid mango
You can't really accuratly sim for sin
tropic ocean
you basically only need haste for bosses in m+ which is usually funded enough by op trait and enchants/essence
tame granite
yeh becasue of the talent you have constant full enegy in trash boss it hurts and its about getting the 3 enveonms in toxic blade window and using your energy well
and yeh its hard to sin for asa i think i read on seli stream he sims 5 targets for 50 seconds
i mean passive wow i havent played assa in too long
tropic ocean
assa m+ is pretty much just a lot of experience
and heavily dependant on essence and trait to what stat you want to increase
minor thicket
ok but if I am simming for M+ on SIM should I use Dungeon slice instead of HAC?
tropic ocean
no
you pretty much check what high scored assassination rogues use azerite/essence wise and compare it to yours
tame granite
i was using 2 ebs 3 ss 1 ttk with gemming and enchanting mastery with 30% crit and that felt nice
minor thicket
so which tab do i choose to SIM
tame granite
mmm id do go dungeon slice but it doesnt actually sim like it shou;d
m+ is really hard to actually sim especially as sin
minor thicket
ok
tropic ocean
@minor thicket this are my stats atm with same azerite setup like u
and I plan on reducing crit some more and increasing mastery
minor thicket
wow wild
tropic ocean
you can't really "sim" m+ atm so I just increase/decrease stats and see how it turns out while playing the keys
tame granite
when i was still palying assa i really liked mastery becasue it just felt like it was doing alot more then crit and also as seli and a few other top assa have said crit doesnt hold as much value becasue the pulls arent giga anymore
tropic ocean
the custom apl from fuu for dungeonslice gives somewhat an idea but you just cant accurately sim cuz everyone pulls different, some pull more, some pull less
some pull trash into boss, some dont
theres just too many variables to make a sim for it
rigid mango
You play so differently in so many diff stages
tropic ocean
@tame granite yeah crit mostly gained so much value because you pulled giga big and used 3 eb
tame granite
if a tank pulls anything into boss thatll live assa gets a major single target boost
tropic ocean
and with usually 4-6 mobs now you just dont go super beyblade mode with 3 eb anymore
tame granite
yeh i miss
tropic ocean
if you played a kr this season with 3 ss you'll see the difference
tame granite
was so much fun
tropic ocean
idk about highest of keys but at my keyrange the players have no chance to keep up
tame granite
i dont play assa anymore now that i satrted doing 19-20s
tropic ocean
and these pullsizes are pretty much most of the dungeons now where you just shine with ss
tame granite
outlaw utilty broken
tropic ocean
and high mastery
tropic ocean
on kr I did I was so far ahead of rest and it wasnt for them playing bad but
just ss giving so much value in these small pulls
and kr is super good anyways for sin cuz u dont chainpull
so u get perm restealth anyway
tame granite
thats the only key i go assa for it actually works so well with not being told to hold vanish or having to do stupid stuff you cant do as ass
tropic ocean
assa is in a pretty good spot atm for my opinion
@rigid mango think only class that can really compete is fury atm
fury profits from <6 targets a lot as well
tame granite
ehhhh pure dps yes just stupid utilty shit outlaw can do
feels bad make assa not need stealth to do dam
bright tusk
Oi!
I'm trying to get some goods logs in eternal palace, currently I'm wondering how to squeeze out more deeps on Za'qul.
I guess I gotta stay in delirium as long as possible, that goes without saying?
And I do that by using leeching poison, right?
And somehow I need to not get killed by other delirium players right?
I'm trying to do all these things but I still can't get above 90 percentile with 52k dps on heroic.
Would appreciate some pointers, I have logs if someone has time for that
rigid mango
I don't play with enough good fury's to know tbh
tame granite
if you care about pure parse and not single target use 2 ebs and youll get 100%
tropic ocean
@bright tusk for log in zaqul u want to not be taken to do adds
but rather go first delirium
and rest be up for padding on small adds and summoners
you also want to ignore dps stop in p1
viral silo
I believe he's talking Heroic. So lol
bright tusk
I feel like I've been obeying those guidelines and tried maximizing my output in there, still thought (0~ percentile
Yeah, I am sorry ^^ I'm a scrub-ish
tame granite
do you have benthic
bright tusk
aye, got fully upgraded akanas and 420 waist, 400 wrists so I'm working on that but yeah
tame granite
idk hard to say why youre only getting that tho a good way to check how your single target is is check the oparse thing and see boss damage and see your parse for that
becasue alot of people are also padding on adds
tropic ocean
tb and crimson tempest don't influence each other
royal lantern
everytime somone says crimson tempest, zine gets 3 new gray hairs
minor thicket
Crimson is only for adds
tropic ocean
crimson tempest can be a very solid choice depending on rest of your setup
minor thicket
wouldnt use on boss
rigid mango
CT is possibly really good now.
tropic ocean
and it comes down if you want a more relaxed playstyle (poison bomb) or a more proactive/decision based playstyle where you get value if u play good (crimson tempest)
rigid mango
Since we're not talking stacking crit as high anymore and stacking EB's
And instead hard stacking mastery
CT has more value than people think
But it's harder to play, and isn't always the better option
tame granite
i just didnt like the whole playstyle i probably just played it wrong but yeh felt very lackluster
but then again i only tested in a 15 where trash dies in 20 secs
tropic ocean
just go for it this week
minor thicket
i dont get it seems easier
tropic ocean
? how
minor thicket
Spam EB than hit CT
rigid mango
But what if you just don't press CT?
tropic ocean
and for poison bomb u never need to worry about it
minor thicket
than your dps is balls
tropic ocean
as it just procs
rigid mango
It's one button away from your variable
rigid mango
It's just literally easier to not play CT
tropic ocean
you dont use ct as finisher
like spending with it
you just keep the dot up on aoe thats it
minor thicket
what do you do with it than
tropic ocean
you basically do something like g g g r fok fok ct fok fok rup fok fok rup
ct again when its about to fall off
if you have the energy u can even g g g ct
but u dont fok fok ct fok fok ct
(sry if i misinterpreted ur statement wrong)
minor thicket
no thats helpful
tropic ocean
its basically just one more dot to keep track off
so if u are lazy you wont have significantly worse results by just playing poison bomb which u dont need to care about at all
rigid mango
PB is literally just there
You ignore it, you don't play around it, and it's simpler than CT
minor thicket
ah so even for M+ just use PB unless i really want to track CT
rigid mango
Just use PB.
minor thicket
kk
rigid mango
CT is potentially better, but the margin wont be huge anyways
tropic ocean
it comes down to what you wanna do if you want to have more on demand aoe
but you'll need to focus more while doing so as well
rigid mango
And if you're still learning sin in m+ there's no reason to pick CT
because there's a lot more than just CT to learn
minor thicket
so without CT and using PB instead rotation would be the same essentially as you said before just no CT
tropic ocean
rotation with pb is pretty much
g g g r
spam fok, envenom into prio(if there) and put enough ruptures to sustain energy
it never changes
minor thicket
figured ok
tropic ocean
playstyle is pretty straight forward
rest comes down to affixes/key/group if you use more fok or more envenom in a pull
minor thicket
but that with high crit and mastery and im golden
tropic ocean
yeah
tame granite
also if adds live long enough vanish and reapply 3 garrotes
minor thicket
now when im doing G G G i assume you mean tabbing and hitting 3 targets
tropic ocean
yes
tame granite
vanish is another damage cd for assa
tropic ocean
3 garrotes from stealth on 3 targets
minor thicket
not 3 G on 1 target
tame granite
no on 3 targets
minor thicket
ok just being sure
tropic ocean
most other stuff depends on your group and dungeon and affix
tame granite
abuseing the restealth for subterfuge
tropic ocean
like when what I do for example in a pack+ void emissary I garrote 3 targets+ruptures, then I vanish garrote rupture garrote emissary
vendetta+pump emissary
you'll have many of these situations where it comes down to what you wanna do in that certain situation how you use vanish/vendetta
minor thicket
no TB?
tropic ocean
oh yeah
tb ofc after vendetta
😄 -> thats what I meant with pump emissary, I spread 3 garrotes 1 rupture and then ST basically emissary
except that I build with fok instead of mutilate in that situation
tame granite
toxic blade on cd but when your bleeds are set up and on a prio target and 3 envenoms on the toxic blade target
tropic ocean
u usually get more than 3 envenom during tb into a prio target in aoe+prio situation
tame granite
like unless absolutely needed the damage (for example void) otherwise youll lose overall tbs in the run by holding
tropic ocean
in an aoepull with prio target you basically do 3x garrote rupture, tb prio target, fok, envenom, fok envenom, fok envenom (when theres enough targets that fok will give u 4cp at least)
until u need to reapply ruptures for energy
(when garrotes drop off)
minor thicket
oh for 4 Garrotes but do i need to have ruptrues on all as well
arctic walrus
4 bleeds
rigid mango
You do 3 garrotes 1 rupture
rigid mango
And then when those garrotes drop off
You either reapply with vanish > 3 garrotes if they'll survive full garrotes again
or you rupture 3 targets
tropic ocean
and one important thing that I see many people do wrong
rigid mango
4 bleeds = enough energy to GCD lock if you're running blood
tropic ocean
if a target is close to dying you just spend ur energy until drained and dont re-dot
(in boss as well)
tame granite
blood feels so good as assa like i dont think ive played another class that builds stacks as fast
rigid mango
Preferably you'd not have it stack fully but ye
tame granite
howd you feel about assa 2nd trink like i was strugggling to find the 2nd one
rigid mango
spyglass + coral/font
tropic ocean
HARLANS LOADED DICE!!!!!!
tame granite
i had spyglass and like coral dice and pretty much half the trinks but it feels not the best
tame granite
i have 455 lol
tame granite
i want the one from cos
shut garnet
that extra 250ish crit is mmmm
tame granite
dice
tropic ocean
you dont wanna use cos trinket anymore
theres better trinkets that dont hustle your healer
it was one of the best at its time but now we just have better options to get the same benefit
rigid mango
I mean lurkers'd probably be BiS if you get a nuts ttf tbh
tame granite
ehhh a giga 455 titan forge would be nice
minor thicket
i use spyglass and font
tropic ocean
yeah
minor thicket
440 spy glass with socket
tropic ocean
if you can get one like that sure
tropic ocean
I mean it can happen if you and other ppl can bother to clear mythic cos every week
rigid mango
wrong channel
rigid mango
rancid bobcat
i mean
tropic ocean
sin already has giga dps
tropic ocean
yeah
rancid bobcat
shit i'd try it if i had one
tropic ocean
use folly and have warlock in group that sums u to every boss
rancid bobcat
also fan
arctic walrus
/camp
tropic ocean
so u hearthstone out before boss and change
tame granite
cant do boss damage
tame granite
get lock in group to summ
rancid bobcat
i mean 2 fan vs 1 mutilate is just 20 energy
minor thicket
you guys have been really helpful
rancid bobcat
and also the same damage
minor thicket
i now know I need to drop a shit ton of haste on my M+ build
and up my crit and mastery
tropic ocean
its not the same dmg though
rancid bobcat
actually more since minus double dose and plus echoing
rancid bobcat
but you do 2 fok
rancid bobcat
worst case you use 2 mut per envenom
tame granite
ehhh thats gross with 6% haste if you dont get op procs you just sit forever
rancid bobcat
you dont have the haste to gcd lock yourself on bosses anyway so
tame granite
imagine
rancid bobcat
more gcds doesnt mean anything
tropic ocean
you dont gcd lock yourself yeah
but u still want to do x envenom in time y
which you wont be able to do if you build with fok on 1 target
rancid bobcat
i mean is there anything that requires something like that on bosses
rancid bobcat
but think of the folly gains
tropic ocean
folly wont make it up on st im pretty sure
rancid bobcat
probably not but it would be fun to try
tropic ocean
folly comes from aoe dmg afaik
tropic ocean
one day ct will proc venomous wounds and we will be big boy blasters
and giggle on all dhs and outlaws
i have a dream 🙂
rancid bobcat
i dunno, i've seen pretty big folly damage
tame granite
no folley would be gross to use as assa
rancid bobcat
like folly being a dh's top damage in a pack
rancid bobcat
i mean same, but i'd try it out in a 17 for fun anyway
rancid bobcat
nah you cant
distant lava
if you're sin
distant lava
you can't mog outlaw artifact
rancid bobcat
thunderfury is a dumb skin dont @ me
tame granite
its spec specific feelsbad
tropic ocean
wdym
tame granite
like only outlaw skins as out you can mog and only assa as the kings one or whatever it is
( dont know legion stuff didnt play then )
minor thicket
ok im gonna bother you a bit about my raiding setup. I switch to MA instead of Sub
I can burst 60-90k when i pop vandetta etc
however when my CD is chargijng my dps isnt as high and im doing the rotation and keeping up bleeds
any advice
im pooling before my TB procs
then hitting Envenom as much as I can in the window
tame granite
youll always drop dps when not having cds up however idk if you do it but what helped me was learning to manage energy well refreshing dots in pandemic time and also actually having timers so you dont use toxic blade when a mech is about to come out like i use to becasue i have 2 iq
minor thicket
i do have a few timers
tropic ocean
Im usually at 40-45k without vendetta simming at 51,5k
minor thicket
see im like 30-35 without
minor thicket
yes
tame granite
you have triple dd
tame granite
and like if you have font and coral and all benthic like theres so many factors
tropic ocean
will look over it and respond in few min
minor thicket
sorry I shouldnt have linked the second one I know my talent was messsed up there
tropic ocean
you overcapped a lot
you missed vanish
you overbuffed subterfuge garrote
you didnt use garrote in subterfuge at all
3 times 😄
you overcapped cp a lot with mutilate
arctic walrus
you still don't use your 2nd font
minor thicket
sorry look at this one https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/bx4pF36Qj1RkTBNZ/#fight=1&type=damage-done&source=6
tropic ocean
you refresh rupture a early a lot
minor thicket
doble dose therer
minor thicket
how i dont use subterfuge there
tropic ocean
u let your energy cap way too often
arctic walrus
#3 no 2nd font
minor thicket
when should I be using second font?
tropic ocean
with vendetta
tame granite
with cds
minor thicket
before ?
tame granite
you have font and coral right?
tropic ocean
- Use font 4s precombat and after that pretty much on cooldown as long as Vendetta has less than 20s on its cooldown.
- Then, with in-fight Font, the idea is to hold Vendetta(+Vanish) a bit to make it also profit from Coral. It's a gain to hold it until Coral is ready (hence the 20s condition above)
minor thicket
well when I let my ennergy cap its because im Pooling for TB
tropic ocean
nah
you let it cap way more than u use tb in the fight
and even if pooling for tb
never let it cap
tame granite
sorry yeh just looked try and pair those 2 up in a way that you have aglity buff from font in your cds with crit buff from coral and use toxic blade then
tropic ocean
intiall pull
u do mutilate rupture mutilate garrote clf vendetta tb vanish envenom mutilate envenom
tropic ocean
yeah but u dont use ur trinket/cd properly during the fight
and u need to stop overcapping energy
and cp
tame granite
font at 6 secs if you arent already
tame granite
also with lucid its actually good to use your engery becasue good chance itll get refunded
just dont starve yourself
tropic ocean
during combat when vendetta is <20 sec
u channel full font
and then use vendetta when it comes off cd
minor thicket
ah ok
tropic ocean
and activate coral
tropic ocean
when vendetta has less than 20 seconds remaining of cooldown
tame granite
also font is a good time to dump energy right before becasue while your channel youll regen
minor thicket
ah makes sense
tropic ocean
you can pretty much look at first boss top logs of sin rogue
and just mimic their casts
timeline
tropic ocean
sounds not too bad but
raidbots will tell you what your stats should be
with your individual character
i have less haste and way more crit but that comes down to essences/traits etc
arctic walrus
it's 14s
arctic walrus
timeline casts
round cypress
!essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
rigid mango
rigid mango
Doesn't seem sin related, but yeah, I am.
grave trail
true
heres a good sin question for you, whats a good haste/crit % to get 4 envenoms in TB phase
grave trail
yeh i know, theres no way of guaranteeing it right if ur muts dont crit
grave trail
gotcha
begs the question, in your opinion for sin, whats a good crit % to have or having more never hurt
ye ye i know what ever sims higher
but iyo
arctic walrus
100% because that means all of your abilities do double damage
scarlet sequoia
use crit pot and hope the fight lasts for 50 seconds
arctic walrus
xd
scarlet sequoia
grave trail
xD
arctic walrus
Sucks not having credibility around here
grave trail
I mean i was willing to follow your advice but you did not provide enough evidence on how to achieve 100% crit
: D
grave trail
4head
i need a tracker for coral lol to see how much crit is giving thanks for reminding
nocturne gate
grave trail
sick thanks
rancid bobcat
actually i need to figure out how to stop the aura from resetting when you vanish
lost horizon
is it set to only load in combat?
dark crag
Can you change it to crit%?
rancid bobcat
idk how to do that off hand
i think i fixed the resetting from vanish thing but wont know until i test it in a dungeon
crit% is less useful for me cause i mainly just use it so i dont overwrite big stacks
and theres an extra step from stacks -> crit value -> crit %
formal sable
rigid mango
Pretty much ye
grave trail
@tropic ocean thanks mang you're awesome
tropic ocean
cheers mate
bright tusk
Oi, I did some of the things you guys suggested on Za'qul heroic to beef up my output and I managed to get a 96th percentile log 🙂 Up from 80~
thanks
rigid mango
dark crag
Spec leeching and go into delirium without firemages
left moth
Hey guys, i got a m+ question 😄
after i did the opener with 3 garrotes and 2 ruptures do i use envenom everytime i have 5 cp even if i get full cp after only 1 fan or do i fan 3 times always to make use of the elaborate planning" talent and then use envenom
sour wasp
depends on number of mobs
left moth
lets say its a big poull with like 8 mobs
left moth
but if i dont use a finisher every 3 globals i dont get the 10% dmb buff from the talent
dmg*
left moth
ok, and how do i play it with 4-5 then? 😄
left moth
ok yeah makes sense, but do i use the envenom on the prio target everytime i have 5 cp or do i wanna use 3 fans always into envenom
to get max value out of the 10% dmg buff
rigid mango
You ignore at 6-8-10 mobs at 3-2-1 Eb
And if you're playing blood you only need 4 bleeds out
lost horizon
^pin that
sour wasp
jeez zine is actually a nerd
left moth
i use 3 ss and 2 eb
rancid bobcat
is there a heuristic like that but combining both twist and eb traits
rigid mango
But yeah, if you have a prio target you might not even ignore there
And if you have ttk's envenoming is more lucrative
rancid bobcat
how did you figure that out anyway
rigid mango
What, the breakpoints?
sour wasp
he's smart like that
rancid bobcat
can you do it when factoring in ttk counts tho 
rancid bobcat
do you have the whatever custom code shit available to paste
rigid mango
I don't
left moth
5Head
vestal wren
just out of curiosity
rigid mango
Fuu did the sims so ask him for them
sour wasp
ct is a thing n ow?
rigid mango
Sorta?
You're mastery stacking with 3 ss and not so focused on crit and EB
CT is a viable option
sour wasp
how much mastery?
vestal wren
at a certain amount of enemies you only maintain bleeds and dont use env
vestal wren
so reaping was good bc. you did insanely big pulls
rigid mango
yeh 55% + is what I've been running anyways