which ones should i be gear comparing?
#assassination
crisp hollow
sudden ocean
my back attack haste set is up like 97% of the time
sudden ocean
there's only one choice really, the haste proc with 3 ability or back attack
you want 3 ability for fish or if your tank has brain damage
marble elm
yeah im gonna need the non-backstab one
pretty sure my full time job is getting parried
sudden ocean
Ashvane parries 
civic palm
Fact, I better be getting the check in the mail 
sudden ocean
civic palm
⬆
sudden ocean
I got 3 ability one before backstab one and it was infuriating proccing it off tricks before the pull
crisp hollow
didn't expect that at all
sudden ocean
it's 160 haste with an internal cooldown shared by its uptime
so yes it's very good
arctic walrus
It's not even horrible to proc before pull
sudden ocean
Yeah I was using poison application to apply it before the pull for a while
crisp hollow
ive been running hardmode for outlaw head for a while and none of us have seen the rings lol
arctic walrus
I just wish it was more consistent
sudden ocean
I'll share my secret with you scoville
rigid mango
Tricksing on pull 
sudden ocean
you need to keep this under your hat though
arctic walrus
It would take 4-5 spells to proc it sometimes
rigid mango
Yeah afaik it's a buggy hellhole
arctic walrus
Yeah this ring has me using it on cd
sudden ocean
Best way to get the rings is to queue with south americans who are like 440 ilvl+ and they will most of the time think the rings are garbage and throw them away
I've actually not gotten a mecha ring of my own
they are all passed off by casuals who don't know
arctic walrus
The last time I had more than 1 rogue in my guild was mid antorus
sudden ocean
Use this knowledge wisely
rigid mango
Tryhards, does anyone know what happens at about 2:45 on court?
Is there some shite overlap or smth
sudden ocean
is that decree funtime?
rigid mango
Might be
fleet whale
so in my sim Lucid dream major sims higher than BoTE?
rigid mango
Just see our wipes when I wasn't there were consistantly there
drifting cloud
sudden ocean
How far into prog are you
rigid mango
I aint been there a single time so no clue
I benched myself for the sake of my sanity
Hm so it's the eruption 
drifting cloud
they probably wipe before, just takes 20s for everyone to die? 😛
quasi pewter
might be sentence + heal immune and charge soak after
true nexus
i just endured the worst pug ever
drifting cloud
nah that one is like 30s later
crisp hollow
still 61 lmao
bleak spoke
That’s kinda cute
rigid mango
bleak spoke
@ vel
crisp hollow
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3bNoNPH4pmq4hwJEwkFDRE hmm do I gamble for biggest possible upgrade or safety lol
i'd imagine its safer to go shoulders and hope for M behemoth chest right?
quasi pewter
go shoulder imo, behemoth chest is good already
and gorak tuls is by far the best
even 430 is better than anything else
crisp hollow
can i droptimize with a piece i dont have on?
wanna see the numbers with 445 behemoth
quasi pewter
445 behemoth will propably sim better than all the gamble chests for you
sudden ocean
only thing it wont sim better than is a ceph hide
but it'll be really close
usually under 100 the difference
arctic walrus
blackwater with 4 loyals will probably be better than a ceph imo
sudden ocean
I think optimum is Zaq helmet, gorak, blackwater
slithering loa helmet is an ok sub until you topple M zaq
crisp hollow
damn so essentially roll shoulders till Gorak Tul's, then heads (cuz highly unlikely I kill M Zaq for a while)
thank god engi head pretty good
sudden ocean
only head that will beat a heroic zaq will be the loa one
quasi pewter
i mean head roll is only for m+ tbh
sudden ocean
everything else is such a minor upgrade I wouldnt bother
quasi pewter
engi is so good actually
sudden ocean
every helmet is poop except loa
Although I do giggle every time i see the name "High Altitude Turban"
makes you go faster
climbing and stuff
crisp hollow
Cowl/flash/irontide not bad for keys at least
bonus points to irontide for being nutty outlaw
sudden ocean
I'd just go for a Ashvane helmet for M+
it competes and doesnt involve rolling residium
quasi pewter
i mean if you have nothing else to roll on
neat remnant
!essences
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
warm harbor
For the benthic gloves, do they always do dmg or do they always have a cnace to hel an ally?
rigid mango
They have a chance to heal
But they're more or less equal to wrists damage wise, even if they heal a bit
warm harbor
are sims currently assuming they only do dmg, or is the healking chance taken into account?
rigid mango
I think they assume damage all the time, but they're still insanely good
The only gloves that are better are the azshara onrs
icy girder
what is 3 bis azerite peices??
icy girder
mythic plus
rigid mango
There's no 3 BiS soz
icy girder
2 ttk . 2 eb 2 ss
modest tendon
2/2/2 is about as close to bis as you can get 😛
icy girder
any rough idea the nam,es
rigid mango
2/2/2 is, but I'd say there is optimisation to be done dependant on factora
modest tendon
What do you mean?
modest tendon
Ye it’s good to have a selection idd
rigid mango
Aye agreed
modest tendon
It’s one thing that makes the spec fun anyways
austere wadi
Do you guys think blood of the enemy will ever shine as a top choice major/minor for PvE? Having trouble deciding if I want to grind it out. I know the major was good pre CLFR3 and such. But feels like it would be a waste to grind now.
modest tendon
If you were to have one combination for every possible dungeon/affix combo what would it be? 2/2/2 right?
rigid mango
@icy girder flashpowder + gold tasseled + blackwater is pretty good
If I had to pick one for every scenario it'd be 2/2/2 100%
austere wadi
When I say PvE I mean mythic raiding btw not M+*
rigid mango
It's the generally best build there is without specifics impacting your choice
Imo
@austere wadi blood has usages on for example zaq
arctic walrus
Clf is very single Target biased
rigid mango
It'll probably be good when shit goes on farm, if you can kill shit before clf take sover
So pre 3 min kill timers ig
arctic walrus
It's also an a around good essence for outlaw and yeah mythic
rigid mango
Did u use clf for azshara, vel?
Or was blood worth for last dps phase
Iirc it's 2:30 ish right?
arctic walrus
I started clf for boss dmg, went blood for 2nd phae adds, but ended up going clf in the end
rigid mango
Fair enough
arctic walrus
Better not interrupt my classic sessions 
rigid mango
Classic 
arctic walrus
Okay I'm actually okay with knowing I'll be doing something in a week
Instead of just aimlessly going around boralus now
austere wadi
So probably not likely useful to grab R3 Blood for prog but might be great for parsing later? What scenario were you talking about for Za'qul, just delirium? My guilds working on Court currently.
arctic walrus
Game feels empty
icy girder
thanks zine
rigid mango
Blood + VoP seems really good
arctic walrus
It's helpful in delirium yeah. Clf barely gets any use on that fight, cuz boss dmg is near irrelevant
rigid mango
@icy girder probably better options shoulder/helm wise if you want op instead of flames
rigid mango
QC
Aint been in there yet though
Ez 1 shot when I arrive 
Yep, irontide is better than flashpowder
arctic walrus
Tuesday i might be promoted kept on trial or kicked. I ain't got much faith in myself 
rigid mango
You're a trial still?
arctic walrus
I joined this tier
rigid mango
Ah
signal summit
what guild u in ?
arctic walrus
Let me answer 
rigid mango
Too slow 👴
rigid mango
I would've done that had I been raiding yday
@arctic walrus waddaya think about 2nd minor for zaq/azshara
More so zaq, azshara I can tc myself but not that
arctic walrus
I'll probably run lucid
arctic walrus
Well you definitely would swap out iris for vision
blood's your major
depending on what kind of dmg you'd need, I'd either opt for pp for adds (abberations) or clf for st
Feelycrafting on the go though 
2 loyals is 6 damage better than a bbi 
daring iron
are ori's wrist's alot better than the pufferfish ones?
got the pufferfish one with a socket, just wondering if it's worth to keep rolling for ori's with a socket
steep obsidian
i think the pufferish proc can miss completely from memory i never bothered with them much though coz got oris with socket real early
you can compare them in sims?
true nexus
whats the best way to use crucible major?
i only have clf r2 and crucible sims better
arctic walrus
I don't think there's anything special to it just don't cap charges
rigid mango
@daring iron in my logs my puffer does similar damage to frost 
true nexus
does it get buffed by vendetta?
vestal wren
no
winter moss
all spells effected by vendetta
static wind
Was the bug where normal garrotes ruined empowered ever fixed?
solid nova
October 3rd 2018 it was fixed.
static wind
Ty
arctic walrus
I'm surprised it's not further behind
@marble elm Showdown at sivara let's do it, sub only
magic thorn
Nice Sim there. 3 Essences but 445 Shoulders
full pond
Hi guys, I am a casual player, but I want to try to improve and be a top 10dps, addon is needed to improve? I'm sorry I'm new
dusty quiver
Are mechagon rings bis? I think I got 1 of those 2 this week
frigid briar
Top 10 in guild or world?
full pond
In raid :c
frigid briar
Get weakauras addon, track your abilities with that, learn your spec well and plan a fight before you pull the boss
edgy nimbus
@winter moss Seems like NP trait is affected by Vendetta itself, that is weird a bit
strong badger
is there some place to read about benthic gear, specifically for assassination rogues, how the gear performs in comparison to "normal" gear?
strong badger
thanks
what's the general consensus? I.e what benthic gear to aim for first, that's cleeearly "the best"
?
rigid mango
Feet
strong badger
thanks!!
whole mica
!essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
true thistle
!essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
sudden ocean
Zine loves his feet
proven talon
When is it a dps gain to FoK instead of Mut, as in how many targets
running 2DD and 0EB
rigid mango
4-5 targets to fok
But muti ends up in more damage on the prio target iirc
@sudden ocean 
sudden ocean
rigid mango
sudden ocean
cosmic prism
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/8btN59gZ2TN9WghumCxFmA https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/PQjqQT9tu41yiwDWxJ7jy why is this outlaw simming higher than me
riddle me this
vestal wren
the outlaw has benthic (at least 1 piece)
cobalt gyro
Ur azerite sucks, outlaws is better comparatively, you have a 420 piece still, he has some benthic
Etc
full jungle
^
crisp shard
Hey, i may be absolutely clueless on this, but i've seen seeing ppl stack a lot of crit strike on sin rogue when I always thought it was best to stack haste? only started playing rogue last tier so apologies for being naïve
full jungle
Cant always follow others, always sim yourself to see what should be best for u
simple meteor
all rogues stack crit for m plus tbh
cobalt gyro
Unless you're sub
dire spoke
sin wanted haste for exsang early last tier, that must have been your info. Now its decent to have
crisp shard
hm, im just seeing if there are any enchant/gem improvements i can make
i'll sim and see i guess
true thistle
How should be used Ashvane Razor Coral?
If I am facing 1 target should i smash it around like 10-12 stacks?
wide hedge
use it with vendetta
and trinket cd etc. #edit i mean with azshara trinket precast so you can combine both trinkets with vendetta
sudden ocean
check pins
true thistle
@sudden ocean y im dumbie, should've done that first
sudden ocean
true thistle
@wide hedge ty for answer
frosty talon
If you use it with inkpod you can wait till 30% and use it then to get chance for inkpod to crit
Azharas trinket should be used as opener
dire spoke
tropic ocean
is there some kind of statistics how often coral/benthic was used as a word in this channel
:^)
vestal wren
type coral in:#assassination in the search bar of discord
keen lark
Oh Wow the real asmongold? Here?!?
dark crag
2 phase strat? Or hc?
rigid mango
Wot
sudden ocean
rigid mango
Sorta depends on comp
Outlaw and sin do same boss damage anyways ish
Can go 3 eb tho
plain moon
I envy you della. 7% wipe on Ashvane tonight 😭🔫
sudden ocean
We did a big 6% at the start of the night, honestly thought it'd kill moral
plain moon
I’ve never abused my keyboard harder than the pull after that 7%
Btw were you holding CDs? I have to hold vendetta so much that fight I end up losing a useage
sudden ocean
No I talked with my RL about it and got it in the opener
plain moon
Aw lucky you
sudden ocean
It doesn't make a huge amount of difference if your lust phase is clean
plain moon
I don’t see the case I can make to my RL on how it would be better for the raid overall so I just hold
sullen pagoda
U should hold only if u 2 phase
stable pine
Has anyone try running 3ttsk for org and pretend you’re playing sub @ Zul before nerf?
plain moon
I’m confused, we do the opposite. Hold 2s and use 3s
I end up using my vendettas at around 1m, 3m, and 6m. 6 being when we lust ofc
And getting to pair the last 2 with CLF
sullen pagoda
So u lose one whole cast
plain moon
Yeah
rigid mango
We held for 3 phase 
autumn trench
I hold mine and use at 1 3 5 7
sullen pagoda
While 3min doesnt lose with holding
plain moon
When do you guys lust sar?
autumn trench
6min
I use clf on 1 4 7
Everyone else uses on pull so we skip second wave before shield breaks
Then just use on cd
As we get more dps I'm closer to losing a cast at the end of the fight but that was prog set up
shadow zealot
Hey anyone balls deep in m+?
Is 3x echoing blades and shrouded suff the go-to?
plain moon
I guess that actually makes more sense
You don’t get the 6min to be under lust but you get 2 vendettas instead of 1
lone mirage
Hu guys , just wanna know why There is a "new way" for ma talented opener, and the difference with oldway
rigid mango
Very small dps gain
lone mirage
Ok , because i feel better with the old
rigid mango
You wont notice the diff apart from feelies in the opener
royal lantern
the ''new''opener does a bit more burst dmg on pull, fight dps is the same
so take what you like, its really 0 difference 🤷
eternal turtle
which island expedition is most efficient?
tender portal
My guild is currently stuck on Ashvane and my dps isnt top i do 33k-35k 3 min in to the fight and that isnt optimal im currently using life force rank 3 in major and Lucid dreams rank 3 in minor can anyone recommend a combination for more sustained dps and less burst ?
tropic ocean
- you need burst in ashvane to dps while shield is down
- have better uptime, fix rotational mistakes
- clf major lucid minor is one of the best setups
tender portal
Ok on the pull I deal about 70-80k with 426 gear I also have problems with energy my stats are 28%crit, 18%haste, 31%mastery, 7% versa anything I should try to change about this ?
dark crag
Don't spam
Prepare for tb windows, get more gear
Assa is no gcd locked spec. Build cp, pool energy, finish, build again while env/ep are up. Watch bleeds
tender portal
Ok ty guys very much for the help 😄
devout gazelle
Which is the old opener guys and which is the new?
i am currently think if i should use tb into vanish and envenom or vanish into tb into envenom
any thoughts?
rigid mango
Scroll up, answered it like 10 messages earlier
devout gazelle
no diff at all then?
devout gazelle
what is the better then?
upbeat geode
new one
upbeat geode
rereading this i think he meant to ask whats the new opener
rigid mango
I'm very unsure.
fast nacelle
cobalt pelican
tbh the old should just be removed from the guide at this point
devout gazelle
yeah guys
cobalt pelican
either that or the new one should be
it reads really badly as a guide to have old and new
devout gazelle
which the hell is the new one? xD
i am new to rogue dont know which one is the old and the new 😄
devout gazelle
can you just tell me which is the new opener?
this is what i am asking
or where i can find it
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
rigid mango
In the uhh, guide connected to this discord
devout gazelle
kk gucci ty
wide hedge
for how long is it the new way? playing it like that for a longer time now woops
rigid mango
What part of the new way are you referring to
If you're talking about tb > vanish instead of vanish > tb, it's been talked about for a long time
ripe nimbus
Tbh the new way and the old way doesn't really affect anything do what ever opener u want
tribal marlin
Adding a condition for Vanish to be used inside TB windows was not a win until 8.2, it was a neutral change and that's why it has never been implemented
rigid mango
Why did it get better now?
tribal marlin
We noticed that Conditionning Vanish with TB debuff being up was still neutral in most case and was a noticeable win with BotE R3
so they choose to add it in the apl
tribal marlin
yes without bote it's supposed to be neutral, might you do some sims to be sure but that's what I found early 8.2
rigid mango
Since I know you're good with the apl and you're 65 do you wanna do some sims on that shit?
past harbor
If i had to start with a benthic gear piece, which one is the best?
unique palm
is sin viable now compared to outlaw after the nerfs?
rigid mango
It's going to be a small net gain/loss anyways
Sin has always been viable, outlaw was just super broken
@past harbor feet
unique palm
well thats what i mean though, in comparison now after the nerfs is it still a mistake to play sin rather than outlaw or is the difference not as great (for people pushing 15-18s)
rigid mango
You could always play both is what I'm saying, and most likely you would've done fine on either
Sin is more than fine atm, not far from outlaw at all.
rigid mango
So vanish tb is a gain still?
tribal marlin
not really
rigid mango
wait no, tb vanish is a loss
tribal marlin
it's 35 dps difference which is 0.06% it's near target error
that's what we call "neutral" 😄
rigid mango
Sure
tribal marlin
now let's look with bote
rigid mango
cobalt pelican
i can't imagine how it wouldn't be a reasonable gain given vendetta is held till tb OR coral now anyway
it's never going to be super insane cause it's like 6 globals in a 5 min fight but
ye
rigid mango
This is more of an interest thing than an actual thing that'll make a diff
no one's gonna change the way they do it thanks to this shit
tribal marlin
something wierd going on xD
hushed arrow
Is Haste still top secondary stat as listed in the guide for single target? Single Target
Agility
Haste
Critical Strike
Mastery
Versatility
rigid mango
Sim yourself.
cobalt pelican
really does depend, every character is significantly different after the addition of essences
rigid mango
There's too many variables to put a stat weight to always work in every scenario on every char.
hushed arrow
I'm trying to understand. So if I sim myself and haste is not top stat, does that mean I have enough haste procs maybe? Just trying to figure out what simming actually means but that would make sense in my eyes. For example if you run triple Overwhelming P then might have enough haste
rigid mango
Just sim using top gear
hushed arrow
Ahh I see also the essences are variables now true
rigid mango
If it tells you replace X piece with Y piece, do so
tribal marlin
There is something wrong xD
rigid mango
Afaik you're quite poorly geared
hushed arrow
Got you thanks.
tribal marlin
Removing the condition apears to be completly neutral (<0.01) with CLF
rigid mango
And your stat weights will be mumbo jumbo
tribal marlin
but it apears to be a noticeable win with BotE r3 :/
rigid mango
tribal marlin
I think it's because of Razor coral
like with razor coral and BotE r3 we might want to not overalapMA buff and BotE buff
Imma do more testes
if you wanna look around
rigid mango
I'm too bad at that shit
tribal marlin
the original condition was seething rage
but it get to only blood debuff now for some reason
this is with vanish tight to TB and seething rage rather than TB and Blood debuff
other sim is without condition for vanish (old vanish before 8.2)
might look at it later
runic tree
Are there any benthic Azerite pieces that have shrouded suffocatation?
Trying to build a m plus set
Seems everything has double dose
fallen raven
helm does
fallen raven
https://www.wowhead.com/item=167762/fathomstalker-headcover is double dose, shrouded suffocation and overwhelming power
rigid mango
And that's really bad for m+
fallen raven
oh yeah skimmed past the m+ line
cobalt pelican
you'd be better just rolling 430 pieces with dust
rigid mango
100%
distant lava
@tribal marlin cause seething rage was only r3 blood
so the APL was reacting weirdly if you played with rank 1 or rank 2
that's why they changed it
sonic rapids
iris over flame second minor is 130 dps increase, but the potential downside is not worth it I guess? I dont know how many times iris buff can drop off for it to still be better
desert vault
I wonder if I'm ever going to get to play m+ with something other than 420s about 80% of the time ... pretty fun
shy axle
in the end, it will dropp yeah
warped shoal
does raidbots sims loyal to the end with someone dying with the talent or only the passive mastery increase?
cobalt pelican
just the mastery
umbral fiber
Im a bit confused https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/dyxp5Y6mMXeNZicMuzbM97 there is no way I want to use 2 active trinkets right? Do I just pick mechagon trinket with spyglass ?
rigid mango
The sim is correcty.
Cyclonic isn't used like your average on use trink, read the pins in #wow-general to understand how to use it as sin.
umbral fiber
Aight cool, thanks
winter gale
Hi guys. Wanted to ask u about MA new opener...When I open Muti/Rupture/Muti and second Muti gives me 4cp again, right after it Garrote...what to do with those 5cp?
Is it stupid to ignore cp and go Vendetta/Toxic/Vanish or spend those cp and build em again?
ripe nimbus
Just vendetta TB vanish envenom
winter gale
No matter how much cp?
Ok
That thing bothered me a bit
I lose just that one cp from Toxic Blade
winter gale
Even before this new opener I was suposed to do so?
😂
@rigid mango
I never did so, I always delayed if cp procced for me :(
And Condensed Life Force is right away after 1st rupture?
winter gale
Omg
rigid mango
even if mid fight, if tb is off cd you press it.
winter gale
I can see how I fucked up my dps sometimes by waiting my TB to fit it in
I was always trying to make it 4th or 5th cp
rigid mango
Yeah, nr 1 tip with tb is always use
unless you'll for some reason not get full value or smth
Very niche though
ripe nimbus
Even if u won't get full value it's prob still worth to use.
winter gale
I never used it as 2nd cp so I dont lose time to build with it active. But if its overbuild I should use it, yes
rigid mango
Sorta depends on scenario
If you can hold for 3 sec to dodge out fo an upsurge and get full value
I'd do it
winter gale
And for that Essence Condensed life force...do I use it right after 1st rupture in this new opener?
And after on Cd
ripe nimbus
Shouldn't need to leave melee range to dodge upsurge but I see what ur saying id still use it tho
rigid mango
I was just using it as some random scenario too tired to think of a realistic one
CLF usage is in pins
ripe nimbus
Before vendetta
rigid mango
gl
winter gale
Great help
Ill now practice that shit since I got used to make my TB fit in CP
And couse of that I sometimes used it on low Rupture timer or when dry on nrg
rigid mango
Aslong as bleeds don't drop, you're fine
ripe nimbus
I wouldn't worry to much about that at this point as long as u get 2 envenoms in ur doing fine once u get used to it u can start pooling when it's about to come off CD.
daring iron
if vendetta is coming off cd soon and tb is up you could hold it?
arctic walrus
How soon
daring iron
maybe 8-12 seconds?
winter gale
I wait if its 3 sec or less
rigid mango
You use tb, and align vendetta to the next one unless you know you'll lose a vendetta cast thanks to delaying it
lethal heart
never worth holding tb
rigid mango
^
daring iron
ahh kk
winter gale
If not I use Tb and Vendetta in 3,4 secs
daring iron
gotya
rigid mango
yeh
You always just use it on CD, regardless of cp and energy
and if you don't get enough envenoms in, that's a missplay
arctic walrus
I use tb if I know it'll come off cd during vendetta window
daring iron
would refreshing rupture at like 12-15 seconds so it doesnt fall off in tb window be appropriate?
daring iron
just let it fall off?
rigid mango
Nope
ripe nimbus
No don't reapply bleeds early
rigid mango
Apply inside of tb
daring iron
ah k
rigid mango
ASlong as thye don't drop it's fine
It seems weird and I think the dps gain/loss is so small anyways
arctic walrus
12-15s means they don't drop off in tb window
daring iron
I thought by refreshing it earlier, I could squeeze in one more envenom in the tb window
keen elk
wait, are we no longer clipping rupture and garrote 1-2s in prep for our tb window if we know it'll fall off during tb ahead of time?
rigid mango
wdym
ripe nimbus
If ur refreshing early ur wasting CPs
arctic walrus
You will have 3 gcds before bleeds fall off after the ends
rigid mango
And no, you just embrace having to reapply it inside of tb
It's been tried and tested many-a-time
Just reapplying inside of tb is the best way to go, if it means not losing pandemic timer and not dropping bleeds
strange python
If you reapply when rupture is under like 7 you are good and like 5.8 for garrote
rigid mango
7.2 for 5cp rupture, 5.4 for garrote
cobalt pelican
you don't r eally need to think about much tbh in t erms of micromanaging when tb comes up or anything
the spec is v simple
rigid mango
yeah, that's pandemic
cobalt pelican
follow the rules: press tb on cd, keep your bleeds up, save 100energy before env outside tb/vend/amp
that's liderally it
keen elk
okay gotcha. i must have misunderstood multiple conversations surrounding that topic then lol i was under the impression we would clip rup/garrote prior to tb coming off cd if we knew we would have to reapply during tb, that way we fit more envenoms in. but reapplying bleeds in tb is 100% less complicated lol so hell yeah
cobalt pelican
(100 is a number i made up, but it's fine)
marble elm
Sometimes I refresh early 
ripe nimbus
If u save 100 energy ur going to cap.. unless u have super human reactions and timing lul
rigid mango
You just reapply within pandemic
cobalt pelican
hwat
rigid mango
Most of the time if played correctly
ripe nimbus
Don't mind me
static glacier
I save til atleast 50
sometimes more if there's no pressing need to do anything (move off boss / refresh bleeds)
arctic walrus
I feel like I always mess up my TB windows anyone else (:
static glacier
you can do stuff like sit on 4 cp if you're going to refresh garrotte soon for a tiny dps gain
rigid mango
wthout overcapping
daring iron
apparently I was, I would always refresh early if tb was coming up lol
static glacier
for TB I just try to save an envenom to do at the start of it, thats all
rigid mango
maybe 140
arctic walrus
I mean sometimes I legit refresh both bleeds, have 10 energy, and use tb 
rigid mango
If you have bleeds up, and you're not overcapping you're not losing dps
You can go from 0-180 energy hands off keyboard
and you've not lost any potential dps in that window
cobalt pelican
on progress bosses i find myself just pressing my keys randomly sometimes
i like zone out from my class and just start mashing my keyboard
ripe nimbus
That's the thing with sin.. u can just push buttons as long as u don't let bleeds drop ur gonna be fine
static glacier
issue is always if you end up getting a mechanic forcing you to move off the boss and you've got energy still
arctic walrus
I am not about to be paying full attention after 250 pulls on a boss
static glacier
that's a dps loss
rigid mango
Oops I'm fucked w 0 energy before tb lets 
arctic walrus
To min max
polar timber
do you guys still spend cps on envenom with eb
arctic walrus
I only sit up in my chair when there's a dpz check to make
rigid mango
Depends on situation @polar timber
polar timber
like 5 targets they all have rupture on them
arctic walrus
@marble elm what trinkets are u running
ripe nimbus
They should give slice n dice back to sin spec. I miss managing that
Also hunger for blood back pls
rigid mango
Then yeah, if you have no prio target and no ttk's at 5t you can mongo fok
if your bleeds are up
arctic walrus
I want hfc tier set back
daring iron
with 3 eb I don't think you even need to rupture that much lol
rigid mango
That's 5, in most cases
sick cradle
Did they fix font f power breaking stealth?
daring iron
yeah, so 4 garrotes and a rup
rigid mango
g g g rup build rup
static glacier
do you guys bother envenoming to dump CP in aoe if you've got enough bleeds out?
arctic walrus
Yes now it always breaks stealth
daring iron
or 3 gar's 2 rups
rigid mango
@sick cradle it always breaks stealth like it should
static glacier
I do if there's a higher hp prio target, but not otherwise.
marble elm
Font Coral my only options
ripe nimbus
It's ment to break stealth what makes u think that's a bug
marble elm
Realistically
tribal marlin
so font 5sec prepull or 15sec preull ?
rigid mango
You should never have more than 3 garrotes out unless you vanished/melded for restealth
5 prepull
why 15
sick cradle
didn't it not break stealth in subterfuge but it did with MA before?
rigid mango
Sounds like a huge waste of font tf
arctic walrus
Coral apply probably
fleet whale
if you have coral and font
rigid mango
Yeah, but they fixed it to work like it should
tribal marlin
well it's 5sec prepull but delaying vend for 10sec
fleet whale
10 secs might be more ideal
arctic walrus
Still bad
tribal marlin
or 15sec prepull and not delaying vend
rigid mango
5s on prepull.
loud light
no reason to delay vendetta on pull, your coral isn't doing anything yet
ripe nimbus
But zine my 1 coral stack 
rigid mango
Not what they're talking about viper
arctic walrus
I'm not sure how I felt about font so I went with inkpod but tbh the stacks were a bit low
daring iron
I've seen inkpod hitting for like 1.5m
arctic walrus
Yeah 2 mil on zaq
ripe nimbus
Font/coral is only confusing if ur trying to over think it.. it's actually super simple
arctic walrus
On Azshara big down time tho felt bad
rigid mango
If you get the itmers down, it's simple
My peanut brain is just not used to it yet
cobalt pelican
ya it's way less complicated than i imagined t bh it's just mildly annoying
arctic walrus
There's a weird overlap where tb comes off cd at like 1:50, and you don't at 1:56, do you guys hold off on font at all, so 1:59 instead or just channel while the effect is up
rigid mango
It's annoying for sure
cobalt pelican
you just font, and then hold vend for tb or coral whichever happens first
rigid mango
but it's simple af
fleet whale
i sure hope next raid tier, there is only one on use trinket
idk why blizz made three of the raid trinks on use this tier
ripe nimbus
U can literally make a WA that tells u when to use font... Which is basically on cooldown most times
cobalt pelican
i like this raid trinkets tbh
ripe nimbus
I'm just glad raid has good trinkets
arctic walrus
I like these trinkets tbh
fleet whale
i mean, i like that they are good
fleet whale
but i would prefer trinks like soul cap or AoC from SoO
rigid mango
I'M FUCKING FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
arctic walrus
A bit annoying with the no real ppm
ripe nimbus
Dead eye is still good tho
rigid mango
Aye, but not as good as font + coral
arctic walrus
I once had a 20 stack coral while another warrior had like 12
static glacier
@ripe nimbus you got any other big brain WA, maybe one to tell me when to use ashvane's?
rigid mango
and I don't have to braindead farm it for the sake of prog
arctic walrus
How can you like font in m+
fleet whale
i still like to use dead eye in M+
fleet whale
esp since i have a 430 version of it
arctic walrus
Coral and what tho
scenic nacelle
Coral and whatever you feel
rigid mango
Coral + spyglass
kindred abyss
!Essence
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Essences overview: https://bit.ly/2XaZOVd
rigid mango
That crit is just nuts
arctic walrus
Or is that more worth than a 445 inkpod or 430 dice
winter gale
I have dead eye spyglass 430 with socket and it sims worse than 410 Lurker
rigid mango
Dice vs spyglass isn't a big diff, 20 ilvls will bridge that diff for sure
arctic walrus
I haven't gotten a socket this tier outside of benthic
fleet whale
my coral and font have sockets on them lol
ripe nimbus
Inkpod in M+ isn't that bad either from what I did especially high tyrannical
arctic walrus
Pls Tomorrow mechagon
ripe nimbus
Did like 9% overall
rigid mango
it might even be better on fort tbh
fok applies it, so fort mobs may get 2 stacks b4 dying minimum
fleet whale
also anyone notice how low assassin is in log rankings?
rigid mango
idk what stacks are reasonable, tbh, never used it
Swap to boss damage
sin isn't there for logging, it's there for killing bosses
If you want to log, outlaw is far better
ripe nimbus
Well on trash it's just that it's procin on everything it's not doing much damage to a single target but it's doing it to everyone pretty much so at the end the overall is really good.
ripe nimbus
It's better then phial by a landslide
rigid mango
I still think spyglass is better, but possibly not by as mucha s I thought
ripe nimbus
Which is an actual AoE trinket lul
cobalt pelican
i still play my 440 socketed plumage i got from my weekly chest in m+
cause it's easy
and it makes me feel like
i got something useful
:'0
fleet whale
yeah your right, assassin is the top in Boss damage... honestly i care more about killing the boss these days than my own rankings
rigid mango
Well yeah, shit's simple and good
Wdym "these days"
When is logging>killing ever a priority if not on farm
for any actual raider
ripe nimbus
U would be surprised
fleet whale
well i used to care a lot more about getting orange parses etc
ripe nimbus
I've met people who will intentionally try to wipe a boss if there parse is shit
rigid mango
You can do tha whilst killing bosses
fleet whale
well, on stormwall for example
rigid mango
the good thing with sin is that parsing well is normally benificial for raid anyways
fleet whale
i would sacrifice my damage to run out orbs cause no one else was willing to do it
rigid mango
uh huh
fleet whale
and i had a scuffed pull on Za'qul last night where i didn't have font off cd on pull
ripe nimbus
Mythic?
rigid mango
rigid mango
Dw I log poopie and I just blame it on me being shit 
ripe nimbus
Okay well phase 1 damage on mythic zaqul doesn't matter. So at least u can pretend it was mythic
rigid mango
fleet whale
gonna start on Heroic Azshara tonight, it's pretty tough for a heroic boss from what i hear
rigid mango
If you're decently geared, you can ignore an entire phase
fervent beacon
Well, our strat is simply zerg the queen at Phase 3 ignoring all mechanics
rigid mango
It's stupid easy if you can really
fervent beacon
Yes, Decree is the only hard part of the fight imo
rigid mango
Decrees are a joke
ripe nimbus
Standing in circles is hard ?
fervent beacon
👉 🚪
austere wadi
With current normal amounts of haste it's only possible to get 3 empowered garrotes off with ss/subterfuge right?
fleet whale
it's also about gcd
ripe nimbus
It will only ever be possible to get 3 off the lowest GCD is 1 sec
austere wadi
I keep seeing logs of strong ass rogues that are overwriting their SS garote with a 4th cast on secondary targets so I was curious if my haste is just low.
bright tusk
Which spec is most chill and still viable in M+?
fleet whale
nah, haste doesn't reduce our gcd like other classes
rigid mango
Outlaw @bright tusk
#outlaw 👈
@austere wadi what rogues do that
and when, who the fuck runs subt in raid 
austere wadi
looking at court prog dont have the logs open atm
fleet whale
if only i could get my passive crit high enough, i could maybe run NS with BoTE
for huge envenoms
austere wadi
but I see a lot of 2xSS/sub builders
rigid mango
Court is the only boss you'd ever run it and it's a very marginal dps gain for a lot of pain
I'd rather just run standard, esp if you have a bunch of spriests
austere wadi
Yeah I'm down with the pain if it means the gain lmao
You're talking to mr 3xEB from orgozoa I will full meme
fleet whale
it might not be that large of a gain
rigid mango
like, it's not a gain enough though
It's just pain
If you've also got spreists that want the 1 boss to 35% as fast as possible, it's not worth it killing boss wise
cobalt pelican
not taking the only opportunity in the tier you'll get to play sub
and instead playing boring ass fok b uild
sm h
rigid mango
Sub 
austere wadi
.<
austere wadi
felt like FoK into rupture about 1million times
I also was running a scent of blood though
so it was worse for me
rigid mango
Scent is aight if you can consistantly keep uhh
3 ruptures?
Something like that, which you more or less can
marble elm
I think coral feels worse than font on aszhara
cobalt pelican
ya
orgozoa is one of those fights where like bad add management downstairs is actually pumper for your dps
cause you can end up with like 8 adds if you fuck everything up
and s till kill the boss
rigid mango
I mean you get 7 if you play it correctly, right?
austere wadi
sry was afk a bit
active not overall lmao
I fucked up and died to ichor like 1min before end of kill still finished at like 60k
yuge cp gen with 3xEB
cobalt pelican
i don't think in an ideal world you ever have more than stomper+zapper+3zoatroids
austere wadi
my TBs were like 6 5cp envenoms lol
cobalt pelican
it's just one of those fights i've written off getting a parse on completely until it's like laughable reclear for us
rigid mango
unless hero'd
austere wadi
I mean I might be exagerating possibly
cobalt pelican
playing my Melee Shadow Priest
austere wadi
so however many globals I could get they were there
rigid mango
Parsing orgo + zaq are jokes
austere wadi
tb is 9 secs though right? so yeah at least 4 but I think maybe 5 possible?
austere wadi
Hmm guess so seems weird cuz I feel like I can get 4 sometimes even when I dont crit muts on every swing
I'm probably remembering my tbs wrong I'm fairly new to the spec haven't main rogue since NH
young meteor
Switching out lucid major to clf spiked haste very high as a stat priority
rigid mango
Because lucid hates haste, clf likes it
You geared around lucid, now you have to gear around clf
young meteor
Probably should have seen it coming but didn't. It was arguably my lowest stat outside of agi before switching.
Not a huge deal just thought it was interesting
empty badge
How do you guys feel about clf in m+
sick cradle
Just switched back to MA from SS, opener is muti muti rup right?
or muti rup muti if you get a 4 ofc
empty badge
MINOR NOT MAJOR
sick cradle
did they fix potion breaking stealth as well btw?
rigid mango
Yep
wide hedge
rip zaqul down, no helmet
is fun not going into del. first 2 times, only for adds
and then with a dh who bursts me down @second add
fast anvil
Sup guys honestly not used to having usage trinkets and was hoping someone could help me setup how i am supposed to go about using font and gale with prepulls, and throughout the fights.
fast anvil
yes
rigid mango
please don't use that
Use raidbots
AMR doesn't use the proper simc APL iirc, and isn't as good
fast anvil
APL?
fast anvil
will do that now
@rigid mango Honestly raidbots is saying gcb as well o.o
best in bags >.<
rigid mango
Thing is, GCB sims really well because it can 100% stand in each cast
Realistically that wont happen, it's also probably the most frustrating trinket to use thanks to the limitation in movement
since it's not far from compendium I'd guess, I'd take compendium anyday.,
fast anvil
compendium honestly pisses me off it scales so well XD
rigid mango
Meh
fast anvil
lol but thank you 🙂
prisma iron
when do you use cyclotronic blast in opener? Before or after TB window?
rigid mango
Never in opener
outside of tb/vendetta when low on energy
So sub 50 energy and you don't need to reapply bleeds soon, and none of the major cds are up to cast
prisma iron
does that mean it doesn't get buffed by vendetta?
rigid mango
Vendetta is whitelisted
only rogue abilities get increased
same for tb damage, same for MA crit
prisma iron
ah makes sense, cheers
fast anvil
Zine if you dont mind me asking eh? why wouldnt stacking Shrouded suffocation work well in sims?
fast anvil
I know the damage from SS stacks each power
and from what i read it was a huge boost?
but sims always only choose one?
rigid mango
First of all, do you know how many others are using loyal to the end in your raid?
fast anvil
no
rigid mango
Aight, well, SS is sorta meh atm tbh
fast anvil
ah ok
rigid mango
Optimised sims don't use any of them because they're not the absolute best
But as a 1 of when up against something mediocre like filthy transfusion
It's a good pick
But compared to NP/DD it's not as good, generally
Had there been more short burst 2-3t cleave fights in this tier it'd be a bit better
fast anvil
So overall stacking NP and DD is the best currently? should i be going for all 3 pieces of gear to have both?
rigid mango
Stacking DD yes, NP no
Generally, BiS atm is zaqul helm + goraktuls with either blackwater chest for loyal or cephalohide
Either 3dd 1 np bbi ttk 3 op, or 2 dd 1 ttk loyal np bbi 3 op
If there are enough loyal users, it's the better option
fast anvil
ALright awesome thanks zine c:
rigid mango
glgl 😄
rigid mango
Oh, shoot
rigid mango
Inkpod'll probably be good enough
stark oxide
cyclo too
rigid mango
If you have revered with rustbolt, cyclotronic on your punchcard is very good
fast anvil
honestly only been back a few weeks working on rep now so im pretty far from cyclo
prisma iron
Another silly question, you just line coral with vendetta right? You don't hold it until your last vendetta in the fight?
prisma iron
I'll have a look, thanks.
teal hatch
Whats a good build to go for in m+ ? trait wise/essense/talents
rigid mango
2 ttk eb ss, blood r3/iris + lucid, 2212221
empty badge
Lucid OP major in m+
empty badge
well my DH uses meme beam as well to be fair
empty badge
in key 2 meme beam overkill
rigid mango
ehhhhhhh
daring iron
I don't see how lucid would be a better choice than beam or bote in any situation in m+ ;p;
sour wasp
he's trollin
empty badge
Im not actually I use it in anything over 18 generally for leech and sustain
lone junco
just make sure to use your thistle tea on cd.
daring iron
but.. we have energy sustain from bleeds in m+ lol
rigid mango
It's just worse than blood
daring iron
plus having it as a minor would probably be more sustain in the long run
rigid mango
for sure, I don't think anything compares to blood tbh
desert vault
Guess I need to suck it up and actually do some PVP to get bote, bleh
rigid mango
Guess what I'm doing 
austere wadi
Arcane heart is out simming ToK pretty hard on 2 target for me 🤔
Has anyone dabbled with AH?
desert vault
is there a big difference between Internal Bleeding vs Iron Wire? I guess I've been running with Internal Bleeding, never bothered to swap
daring iron
iron wire helps reduce tank damage, that's a bonus I suppose.
probably more benficial than 20k damage every kidney
austere wadi
for M+ most would rec iron wire for the subterfuge blanket silence.
daring iron
even if the mob doesn't cast spells it reduced their damage by 15% while they're silenced
pretty decent, 3 mobs every pull atleast
desert vault
Yeah I guess, I just never really paid any attention 😃
stark oxide
Internal bleeding is basically always the worst pick for pve, but I default to it because I'm selfish 😛
bleak spoke
Wrong?
bleak spoke
If you don’t need iron wire and the total dps to the target isn’t 10 times greater than the ib dot in 5 seconds then ib does more dam
bleak spoke
It’s your highest dps finisher by raw numbers and returns energy via ven wounds
stark oxide
Well that's what I mean. For high keys where it matters, Iron Wire is probably the most beneficial as a default choice. For raid settings where the debate actually matters, prey on the weak is almost for sure going to be more beneficial over it.
bleak spoke
Can’t say I recommend it for much these days but last tier it was huge on conclave
oblique juniper
guys shall i go with 3 echoed blades and 1 shrouded suffocation or 2 echoed blades and 2 shrouded suffocation? for mythics
bleak spoke
Where the sum total of raptor hp was so low the ib dot won over prey by default
stark oxide
Right but that is an exception
Like for the hulks on azshara I'm pretty sure prey is better, though I play IB for the personal parse since the hulks arent an issue anyway
bleak spoke
Yeh prey is better on azshara
Cuz cyclotronic casts
From healers/tanks will gib it
rigid mango
Imagine not just caring about your own dps