is it possible that i'm simming higher with a 430 socket offhand than a 445
#assassination
umbral mauve
crisp steppe
yes
fleet whale
yes, if the stats on the 445 are bad
crisp steppe
just do what top gear sims tell u
eternal turtle
are you supposed to let a SS garrote expire before applying a new one>?
drifting cloud
yeah
void lynx
am i supposed to clip envenom for ep buffs
umbral mauve
u dont play around ep
void lynx
so i should let envenom buffs expire?
fleet whale
just use envenom when you have at least 4 cps
void lynx
should i be pooling energy on each envenom?
strange python
So since Outlaw will die in 2 days. What trait should Assa stack for m+?
civic palm
It won't, go back to Outlaw.
fleet whale
a spec could literally be nerfed by 1% and people will think it's dead
silent fossil
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/o9cd3hw6QTmELFRLGkr4Zo is shrouded really that bad? game literally won't give me a chest w/o shrouded on it but i feel like the sim is still really low
fleet whale
For ST it is starting to fall off yes
also, why crucible major instead of Lucid major?
silent fossil
that's just the latest highest sim for my char, i swap them around occasionally to see what feels good
dont have CLF 3 yet
cobalt pelican
the blackwater chest has loyal to the end on it
in general if you're not nelf shrouded won't really come close to any st build anymore
silent fossil
er i meant helmet, working on getting the pearls to unlock the crafting bench to make goggles but havnt got a better helmet yet
cobalt pelican
the sim isn't just low cause of that though most of your gear is just butt
fleet whale
yeah, you're second trinket is not that good
cobalt pelican
rolling helm if you're raiding is just kinda weird, the 420 zaqul helm/420 mythic champs helm is probably better than this
and it's pretty hard to not have either of those things at this point even if you don't have it on heroic
silent fossil
don't really mythic raid anymore, just heroic with my guilds alts at this point
cobalt pelican
almost all of the helms suck that you can roll besides like one
fleet whale
there is one with swirling sands and DD
and i think another with NP TTK, that's it
the helm from the first boss ain't even that bad
silent fossil
my druid is the char with all the BoD gear on it, raided the entire tier on it and just swapped back to my rogue about 2.5 weeks ago so still gathering the azerite pieces
cobalt pelican
oh..
well you'll b asically be forced into ss pieces till you get a new helm then
silent fossil
i mained rogue forever but we had a healing issue last tier so i was rdruid
cobalt pelican
since the helms only other option is echoing blades
pretty nice helm for m+ though smileyface
silent fossil
was just curious since i dont remember shrouded being so bad back at the start of BoD / uldir when i raided on my rogue last
fleet whale
it wasn't
cobalt pelican
it was less bad in uldir cause exsanguinate was still like fairly relevant
in bod there was way more like
opportunities to get value out of it
but it still sucked for any of the st bosses
fleet whale
it just scales poorly, and EP benefits from MA/ DD more
silent fossil
icic
fleet whale
and since were all getting higher crit MA is starting to become more reliable
eternal turtle
so with SS trait, what is worse, not having 100% uptime on garrote or overwiting the empowered garrote somewhere between 0-1s?
cobalt pelican
are you referring to like
the tiny window between it dropping and being reapplied?
eternal turtle
yeah
cobalt pelican
just wait
eternal turtle
for it to completely fall off?
cobalt pelican
yes
fleet whale
I got away with using one SS trait through most of BoD cause i was a nelf
cobalt pelican
if you really want to make the window as small as possible just make sure you have 45 energy or whatever
but reapplying over the last tick is definitely a loss
eternal turtle
alright
sonic ibex
what traits are people stacking for m+
balmy cradle
do you guys use coral in m+?
lone junco
@eternal turtle with SS and subterfuge you want every tick. So outside of pandemic refresh with vanish, you want to let it fall off completely. The refreshed unbuffed garrote does dog shit damage. so dont replace your big ticks with tiny shitters
desert vault
think it makes much sense to run dice+spyglass vs dice/spyglass+coral? All 430s
sand gust
any one do mythic pluss with assassination spec or do rogues prefer outlaw for mythic plus
fleet whale
is eng helm any good?
civic palm
Yeah it's decent.
desert vault
eng helm is good, yeah
wintry mica
worth losing ur 1 NP for a 3rd EB for mythic+?
civic palm
It's worth losing NP for almost anything in M+.
balmy cradle
so coral yay or nay in m+ now^^?
steel summit
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
hollow junco
!coral
meager nebula
in the pins mate
vagrant urchin
What's the best way to use razor coral?
vocal ginkgo
use it on pull and use it again on ur 2nd vendetta to get the crit
vagrant urchin
thx
vocal ginkgo
but u can check pins
they explain it there aswell
is the sin guide opener for MA up to date?
ive been using subterfuge and dont know the new MA opener
ember rover
With Blood or CLF?
compact harbor
Regarding Coral+Cyclotronic, what order prio should the trinkets be used?
ember rover
With CLF opener is Mut - Garrote - Rupture - Vendetta - Vanish - TB
Then normal rotation
You mut 2x if you get no crits on first mut
cinder relic
what is the mythic+ azerite traits i want
lament valve
[moved to pvp]
lament valve
ah right sorry
cinder relic
if i run2 EB do i run Crimson tempest or hidden blades for mythic+
vapid scarab
neither
frank escarp
neither
vapid scarab
you run poison bomb no matter what
fathom echo
hey guys just checked the raventholdt guide is there much diff between the new MA opener and the old one
fathom echo
whats the reason for the new one
fathom echo
ahhh
woven hound
maybe a silly question, but are we supposed to go back into stealth and prepot following font?
is that even doable?
keen elk
font>stealth>prepot>pull
woven hound
cheers, thank you!
keen elk
i font at like 6 seconds because my guild is full of mongaloid shamans who pull early somehow but if you have players who can count you can font at like 5
balmy quest
Uhh earlier that MA opener wasn't correct
woven hound
i was just gonna say, another reason to rage
hushed valley
Is there somewhere where I can read up on rotation priorities in m+ I feel like I remember reading in TC that it's a dps loss to try and keep full dots on 3 or more
Only fan to refresh dots or smth but I cant seem to find it anymore
true nexus
depends on how many targets and how long they will live
I'm pretty sure its just a thing of understanding the pulls
rigid mango
think of playing sin in m+ like driving a car, with 4 gears
first gear: 1 Target. you do standard 1 target rotaion
second gear: 2 Target. say 2nd boss fh, your rotation changes a bit, you keep both dotted and you build differently
you muti first, 2 cp? muti again, 3 cp? fok, 4-5 cp? finish
This is if you're running eb in any quantity
Third gear: 3-4 target, here you spread 5 bleeds and build and spend like regular, fok fok into env
Forth gear: 5+ Targets, here you spread 5 bleeds and fok like a madman, ignoring all spending until you need to reapply your bleeds with ruptures if you need the aoe. If you need the prio damage, you keeo on pumping fok's > env to kill at a more even pace
@hushed valley
hushed valley
well put ty @rigid mango
rigid mango
There's a lot situational change and transitions and stuff not mentioned in there too
hushed valley
ofc but thats exactly what i was lookin for just trying to get a feel for it
rigid mango
Yeah, you'll get a feel for most of the rrst after a while
hushed valley
sins always had a very easy to follow rhythm just gotta find it
trying to work out better vendeta usage aswell
fresh coral
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
true nexus
@rigid mango i have a question about that
so on a regular trash pull, i imagine most people run subterfuge for m+? and you'd first apply empowered garrotes everywhere you can even if overcapping cp?
heavy trail
I would say 3
true nexus
then ruptures, then just fok/envenom
heavy trail
But I suppose you wouldn't want to overdo it based on the pull or else you will have too much energy and not enough builders used....
rigid mango
@true nexus yeah, always overcap the damage and energy reg is worth it
Sin has ramp up, it needs to get 5 bleeds out as soon as possible, with subt it's much faster
rigid mango
Enough for inf energy reg
true nexus
i see
rigid mango
At 5 bleeds out w poisons on you're gcd locked from that point on
true nexus
do you fok once then tab target rupture
or twice for guaranteed 4-5cp
on like 4-6 targets
green saffron
hi, what should I run Exsang or Toxic Blade for MD+ with 2-3x SS traits ?
winter moss
general trend is towards tb
shrewd depot
I’m using Font and Lurker’s, when’s best to use Lurkers?
rigid mango
#tc-updates replace coral with lurker I'd assume
balmy quest
Hmm with 5 dots and energy not being a problem is it possible for deeper stratgem to overtake DPS of vigour in aoe situations? I know outlaw are making the switch with lucid and Ace traits but with energy regen not being a problem could it work for us? I wouldn't run it in M+ because you'd flop hard on ST bosses but in a theoretical aoe pack could it perform better?
gray citrus
is simc fucking broken?
frigid sleet
How so ?
rigid mango
@balmy quest it has potential use, issue is that you want do drop ALL of your haste normally, going deeper normally forces you into lucid major atleast, vigor gives more moving ground, simper to play, less punishing and without 3ttk, lucid major and near flawless play I don't see it being better
tulip mist
How bad is DD in m+? i just gambled gore splattered west to replace a 425 chest. is 1x DD acceptable?
worn crag
What's the other trait?
tulip mist
NP
granite rampart
if you had to choose between the 2 i think NP would be better
short pivot
Gore is only good for raid, stick to 430 or 420 chest with better traits
Traits> extra agi
rigid mango
@tulip mist dd is one of the worst, np atleast has more use
tulip mist
alright, thanks guys 😃
silent parcel
Is it worth running 1x shrouded for raids?
scarlet sequoia
no
wise whale
on zaqul do you change your rota when you are in delirium with many adds around you? yesterday i got like 47k dps and i thought that would be great but some people do 55k or eben 65k
how?
lament dove
adds
lament dove
I mean others specs have it easier to do some plus dmg on adds than an assa who is set for single target damage
wise whale
for example how is this guy doing nearly 250k without fok ? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Nch1gJHYkT2CGX3P#fight=14&type=damage-done&source=21
im talking about assa of cause
i know normal logs are for noobs but it seems impossible to me
lament dove
it's a 2:30 kill, I'm sure your dps is better at 2:30 as well
wise whale
hmm its probably because of blood essence but i still find it odd he can burst 250k midfight
wise whale
you can see in the damage overview his burst is just under 250k?
drifting cloud
and you know zaqul takes bonus dmg right?
drifting cloud
you can see his opener crit is already above 150
its just bote burst and then zaqul enrage on top of that
nothing else
copper hazel
Lurkers trinket, bote makes for big dmg
drifting cloud
oh yeah lurkers makes a pretty big difference, didnt even see it
small thicket
U guys rupturing all the little adds on zaqul or not worth
tropic ocean
Not worth
rupturing something is only worth it dps wise if it lives for the dot duration
brave gyro
with the outlaw nerfs, are you guys gonna play assa in higher M+ or/
royal lantern
mate
outlaw is probably still the best m+ spec
its just less extremly ridicolous OP anymore
brave gyro
ah sorry, literally came back to the game 3 days ago, so not sure what the balancing is, kinda quit after CE jaina 😄
royal lantern
and you cant do bladeflurry>let your cat walk over the keyboard>500k more dmg then everyone else anymore
for m+, it will probably bring outlaw in line with the other top specs
dh etc.....
brave gyro
alright , good to know, thanks 
royal lantern
but outlaw still has the perfect way too gear/do aoe dmg for m+, its still gonna be good
the nerf is hitting raid outlaw harder because it got a huge hit too its strenght
brave gyro
i see
sterile chasm
rigid mango
Not enough
spare dust
Must feel terrible to go from broken to top tier. I cant imagine it
thorn trout
so sim gives 28.74 dps result but my average is 22k what im doing wrong 😦
spare dust
If youre that far off you should prob read the guide on wowhead
eternal turtle
is there any piece that has priority to buy with titan residuum?
or one that has highest chance to roll good traits?
royal lantern
most people here buy shoulders/chest
thin patio
Depends on what you're looking for but Tryan is right
thorn trout
I'm exactly doing the rotation written on wowhead and last m7 I got was 15k
how tf this sim works
crisp steppe
its hard to tel lyou what you're doing wrong without any logs to look at
simming for m+ can help you figure out what gear you'd want to bring. it's not going to give you an accurate number
if your tank pulls 2 packs togheter and hte pulls are twice as big
you're doing more dmg
crisp steppe
if the tank pulls mobs one by one. your dps is going to be terrible
cobalt pelican
this is a single target sim with you using single target gear, i assume m7 means a mythic key at level 7
thorn trout
yeah
cobalt pelican
well yeah you have completely the wrong gear with no enchants, cannonball runner pushing your sim up and like 1 aoe damage trait
thorn trout
how can I gear properly than
thats all I get from doing stuff
😕
loot spec sin also
thorn trout
nah I just want to keep mythic plus
solid nova
Then you just need to keep spamming keys
cobalt pelican
do a weekly 10, buy some pieces from the vendor
thorn trout
but my dps is shit and bothers me
radiant python
Isn't the benthic head and chest really good?
radiant python
And easy to get
cobalt pelican
the 28k figure is what you'd do single target with all buffs, bloodlust, playing perfectly
thorn trout
well yeah on bosses I'm doing good but overall is shit
Dude I'm just 420ilv
not 450 on mythic ep
solid nova
So?
thorn trout
I'm tryin to figure out want can I do
solid nova
Enchants are cheap
royal lantern
enchants are like 1,4k gold for weapons
solid nova
And contribute a lot
dense cedar
420 ilvl does fine damage in 10+ keys
royal lantern
and you switch weapons 3-4 time in an entire patch MAX
solid nova
Enchanting your gear properly will give you more damage - thats the point right?
thorn trout
What enchant should I get ?
radiant python
Get some benthic gear and enchant/gem
thorn trout
this ones were the best
royal lantern
DD is the best for RAIDS
radiant python
Are you using raidbots?
thorn trout
nope
fathom viper
afaik Shrouded Suffocation and Echoing Blades are best for M+
solid nova
DD in M+ is a no beuno
radiant python
Use raidbits
royal lantern
it sucks hard in m+ cus you pretty much only use Mutilate on boss fights/for the last 3-4seconds on a trash pack
radiant python
Yep
royal lantern
and you always spend most time in dungeons on mobs, not on bosses
thorn trout
Well next possible time I'll try to get 415 swords etc for law
solid nova
Do you not have a better trinket then cannonball?
thorn trout
nope
solid nova
It's overvalued in sims due to it assuming zero movement
thorn trout
did m+7 today
solid nova
Its a giga vendor trinket
radiant python
Just keep doing keys
solid nova
The short answer to how you can better your gear:
-Farm more keys
-Enchant your weapons/rings
-Fix azerite
-Hope for better loot through doing more keys
Spend TR on azerite rolls
Thats literally all you can do if you dont intend to raid
solid nova
And fix essence ranks as R2 and R1 compared to R3 add contribute very little
solid nova
Lucid R3 is fairly fast
radiant python
Yeah just do the three follower quests every day, maybe farm some elementals
lofty river
sim it
dense cedar
do a big ol simulation for solely enchants @thorn trout
crisp steppe
for m+? probably force multiplier and deadly crit
rigid mango
I'm a man of 1 haste ench to make up for lack of haste on ST
brisk hound
Morning all. Somewhat new rogue here. Have had a chance to read up on all the guides and everything, but I think I am still struggling with DPS in EP. Was wondering if anyone here had a few minutes to chat with me about azerite / essences / general tips? Have logs if that makes it easier.
Would appreciate it Estari#7648
vagrant tapir
Whos excited to be meta again in an hour and a half?
strange python
i don't really care, i'll probably play sin regardless
rigid mango
You do know outlaw still seems stronger, right?
vagrant tapir
Yeah but the gap is nowhere near what it is now
rigid mango
Obv
vagrant tapir
I guess I'm missing the point then 
cobalt gyro
Too bad outlaw utility is miles ahead of sin
empty badge
sin best rogue
rigid mango
Too bad we're barely fighting for 2nd rogue spot
faint harness
the only thing sin has is the aoe slow, which is probably not enough anyway
cobalt gyro
Not when meta tanks have built in slows
raw fox
should i focus on getting my socketed boots to max (akanas) or get other socketed pieces?
royal torrent
boot effect doesn't scale
strange python
zine are you implying we're worse than sub?
raw fox
So leave em at 410 for now and focus on getting other items with sockets
cobalt gyro
No, he's saying in m+ sin is barely competing for the 2nd rogue slot
strange python
if outlaw is top, and we're barely there
vagrant tapir
aka, just barely better than sub
cobalt gyro
You'd very likely take a 2nd outlaw or very exceptional sin
vagrant tapir
They ruined sub
strange python
(maybe as i level more it'll get better, but in the meantime)
vagrant tapir
Look what they did to my beautiful boy
faint harness
sub snoozefest, plays sin rogue 
empty badge
you have to be big brain with sin ni m+
vagrant tapir
Ehh, you have to be reasonable brain
strange python
oh yeah, it's big brain time
faint harness
how is sin in m+ big brain time
strange python
i'm just saying though, i like sin better
faint harness
empty badge
blade flurry omegalul
strange python
we get so much cool stuff like garrote and poisons
empty badge
sin more big brain i mean
faint harness
spam fok 
vagrant tapir
sure but its unquestionable that its more involved that outlaw
strange python
yeah tbh i was kinda curious as to why fan of knives is a thing lol
vagrant tapir
i still wouildnt say big brain tho
strange python
i was like "what am i going to do with this?"
faint harness
dmg
strange python
and then i went back to garrote-ing things
faint harness
i'd almost argue its more difficult to get the most out of blade flurry than spamming fok and applying 2-3 debuffs on every pull
vagrant tapir
outside SS, you dont really spread garrote unless your on like 2 targets
strange python
so it's pretty much for mass applying poisons?
vagrant tapir
And CP for ruptures
strange python
i will try to abuse this
faint harness
there is an azerite trait that increases its dmg by a lot
vagrant tapir
5 + target you just fok
strange python
oh
vagrant tapir
Less if you run EB
strange python
so like 41 levels it'll be really useful lol
vagrant tapir
need ruptures for energy
faint harness
not many
vagrant tapir
yeah like 3
vagrant tapir
I mean it kinda is tho
vagrant tapir
FoK for damage, rupture for energy
dapper plover
sin vs outlaw?
strange python
you like knives too?
vagrant tapir
Like you dont actually rupture on 5+ tagets for damage
dapper plover
am i in time?
strange python
i guess you could say i too am a...
vagrant tapir
its for energy
faint harness
you dont spam rupture, you dont spam garrote, you spam fok, thats the aoe
strange python
fan of knives
signal thunder
Hey guys! A question from a non mythic rogue. I have noticed that for heroic farm alot of sin highest parses involve stacking haste and mastery since they get heaps of passive crit from blood of the enemy. Is it a legit build or a meme?
I parse 97-99 in normal in 412-415 bracket with lucid and heavy haste/crit build. But when I look at 425 bracket on heroic guys are doing 6-8k more dps with that weird mastery build... Do you think it is worth the hassle?
faint harness
you use whatever the stat weight sim tells you to use
and im sure they are also going by that
vagrant tapir
Haste + Crit or master is what youll see most times with CLF/BoTE, Lucid dreams favors crit, but mostly its going to be whatever sims highest for those rogues
dapper plover
dont ever use stat weights for upgrades
untold current
There isnt really a mastery build
faint harness
Also you shouldnt pay much attention to ilvl brackets. It's not a good measurement of anything
vagrant tapir
No, its not a mastery "build" per se
But sometimes you will see a mastery ench on a piece show up in top gear based on your weights
signal thunder
@faint harness are you implying that 1600 ish haste and crit is worse than 1300 haste and crit with 850ish mastery /vers? Seems counter intuitive
vagrant tapir
No, I dont think hes implying that at all
untold current
Peoples stats fluctuate so much there are sin rogues gemming vers atm
vagrant tapir
Hes saying that stat weights are subjective, and he cant possibly tell you whats best for you and your gear
Or those rogues and their gear
faint harness
I am not talking about specific stats cus its pointless, i personally have a crit/haste build because its what sims the highest for me.
vagrant tapir
its very subjective
hoary crown
What do you guys think? Will we outshine Outlaw by tomorrow with tripple echoing valdes and a single shrouded suff?😉
Blades*
bold elk
nope
vagrant tapir
Outshine? No
faint harness
if you can press fok fast enough
bold elk
its "just" a 15% nerf, OL will probably still outdamage and outCC most if not all other classes
faint harness
i think a well geared assa with good traits will beat outlaw on aoe after the nerfs
strange python
is it the massive amount of stuns they can put out that's "utility"?
royal lantern
outlaw is still gonna be one of the best/the best class for m+
vagrant tapir
gouge and stuns, but mostly gouge
bold elk
plus the META will not change as well, you still go 2x Rogue
strange python
gouge?
royal lantern
its just less extremly OP now
strange python
so they basically get a second interrupt?
faint harness
all specs have stuns, its not cus of stuns. Sure outlaw uses a stun in their rotation, which isnt always a positive
vagrant tapir
for things that cant be interupted
bold elk
what do you mean "get"
hoary crown
Hmm I kinda like iron wire with assa
bold elk
OL always had it
hoary crown
3 targets silence and more with vanish
vagrant tapir
But you can still only interupt/silence what can be interupted and silenced
dapper plover
gouge is dank
strange python
push the cd on their stun gets reduced with combo points
vagrant tapir
Gouge you can interupt things that cant be in terupted
dapper plover
yeah
bold elk
then you have it all over again that all specs feel/play similar
faint harness
yes but you cant stun something forever
strange python
true
bold elk
and you then just go by what does most damage
faint harness
and if you stun DR something until its immune and then have to stun you just fucked up, so theres that too
bold elk
boring AF
cobalt gyro
Okay it's not mostly gouge, it's easy of access to control, vanish free for dealing with mechanics, a good damage profile for keys, little reliance on cooldowns, stun as a part of main rotation (which is huge because of prey)
Hard for sin to compete on that
shut garnet
i feel like assa with iris and 3 EB only barely misses out on the outlaw dmg with 3Ace and BoTE tho and it makes up on singletarget
bold elk
Blade Flurry > Iris
strange python
what do you mean "vanish free"
faint harness
we'll see 
royal lantern
sin/sub use vanish offensive
cobalt gyro
Vanish is not a dps cooldown for outlaw
bold elk
theres not much to see tbh
faint harness
assa use vanish for dmg
royal lantern
outlaw doesnt need too do that
strange python
oh ok
cobalt gyro
So you use it for threat/mechanics/cheapshots in emergencies
bold elk
but it stil is a dps CD for sub
shut garnet
and assa benefits lots from silencing 3 mobs AGAIN with 6seconds and garrote refresh
vagrant tapir
Sure, its bigger, but they do use it
faint harness
barely
vagrant tapir
and it is absolutely a dps cooldown for sub
bold elk
you dont have to use vendetta by that logix as well 😄
faint harness
how is that the same thing
strange python
well that's cool
vagrant tapir
They both use it on cooldown for dmaage
faint harness
you get the FW from just dancing
vagrant tapir
We're not talking about how much of a gain it is
cobalt gyro
It's not quite as good for sub as sin
strange python
i'm learning a lot about this wonderful class
vagrant tapir
Were talking about whether they use it as a dps cooldown, and whether they have it available for utility
cobalt gyro
Sub in keys is more like to use it for mechanics, though
vagrant tapir
Which both of them do
faint harness
sin literally gains giga garrotes from vanish, its not even comparable
royal lantern
@cobalt gyro sub in keys
bold elk
tldr: Blizzard doesnt want double outlaw, nerf it mid Expac because feels
royal lantern
mate
bold elk
basicly as always poor designchoices
royal lantern
it has nothing too do with blizard doesnt want double outlaw
outlaw was so op for m+
strange python
garrote from stealth is better with iron wire
royal lantern
it was not even funny anymore
strange python
+3 seconds of silence, and they do -15% amage
hoary crown
Holy hell if i could only start a convo with girls easy as I did here😲
cobalt gyro
Iron wire is good but it still isn't comparable
solid nova
vagrant tapir
Just talk to the girls in here 
strange python
which i guess might be good for some bosses? idk
raw fox
Any help on where I should focus on improving this week?
royal lantern
implying there are girls in this discord, 1 of the most nerdy places in the universe
bold elk
of course mdi is stupid, you will always see similar things because META
vagrant tapir
Yeah, but I mean cmon
cobalt gyro
@strange python it doesn't
dense cedar
Bosses r usually immune to silence
bold elk
there always is a META
royal lantern
cant silence bosses
vagrant tapir
Theres a differene between extreme metas
strange python
so the -15% damage thing doesn't work?
vagrant tapir
And all the top comps being 3 outlaw rogues
strange python
aww come on
dapper plover
but when the meta is 1 class then it needs changing
vagrant tapir
yeah no iron wire on bosses lol
Yes, MDI will always have extreme examples of the current meta
bold elk
yeah probably shouldnt taken aways most aoedmage from literally every other class after legion
vagrant tapir
But exclusively being outlaw rogues is problem
bold elk
--> poor class design
solid nova
@raw fox Apart from the generic benthic replacements, trinkets and essences at this point are probably first points
Is Lucid 1 really > Iris 2 for you?
For a major?
solid nova
Lucid is just dailies mate
cobalt gyro
But yeah tl;dr one outlaw is basically not changing, what's up in the air is if the 2nd rogue is an outlaw or a sin rogue
strange python
remember when blizz nerfed the BElf racial because of how OP it was?
raw fox
I know, that's why it's taking so long
strange python
yeah servers are offline for maintainence. it sucks.
doesn't mean we still can't have a discussion
solid nova
Spec related discussion*
rigid mango
No
strange python
that's disappointing
strange python
drs?
royal lantern
wound poison is pretty much a pvp only thing
strange python
oh
royal lantern
but its reaaaaally good for pvp
strange python
yeah
faint harness
diminishing returns
everything in this game is basically affected by DRs, something to learn early.
strange python
oof
shut garnet
so is BoTE r2 and 3 worth farming to play outlaw if i have decent assa traits and r3 iris and lucid?
strange python
but yeah wound poison is great for that
rigid mango
Bote r3 is worth it, yeah.
shut garnet
like 3EB 2 TTK 1 SS or 3TTK 2EB 1SS
strange python
apparently assassination used to have something called an instant poison? that sounds interesting
faint harness
its baked into deadly poison
strange python
ah
faint harness
and back in the day, all rogue specs had poisons
strange python
so i could have poison on a sword if i wanted to?
faint harness
yes
royal lantern
when you apply your poison when the enemy allready has a poison up, it does instant dmg and refreshs the timer
thats how deadly works right now, wich is more or less how instant poison worked
faint harness
if we're lucky, they bring back classwide poisons for 9.0
rigid mango
Outlaw with poisons 
faint harness
lone junco
if you poison swords as assassin, you dont get mut and have to fokfokfokfokfokf
signal thunder
@solid nova hello! I have a theory question. According to this latest sim, my highest rated stat is now mastery and vers. https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2XBVqANZG8S2jo9V86E2vh
But from my understanding, it is only so, if all stats remain the same, and as such each extra point of mast/vers will net higher DPS.
So what is the correct course of action? JC rings with mastery and vers with respective enchants and sim again? This is where this whole simulation business confuses me... :-(
lone junco
not a good idea for dps
strange python
meh
faint harness
Sim top gear and sim all the different stat options for gems and enchants
rigid mango
Vers mast being highest 
strange python
vers? on a dps spec?
faint harness
Who woulda thought right
strange python
ik
solid nova
Not really sure what the comment about getting all stats the same is about but errr
Just use top gear 
royal lantern
i cant be the only guy that thinks that giving poisons back too all specs would be...somewhat crappy at best?
faint harness
i mean its just for flavour
solid nova
Idk Tyran, try #wow-general
rigid mango
I use stat weights (:
solid nova
Welcome
strange python
honestly i just think the poisons system is cool
faint harness
you would love this then
strange python
just let us be able to keep them when we get out of battlegrounds
faint harness
back in the day, you used to brew poisons 
strange python
sounds lit
chrome mirage
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
strange python
how long has sin rogue had these same 3 poisons?
hollow junco
dawn of time
strange python
you'd think they'd add newer, more interesting poisons
hollow junco
we used to have instant poison also, but they baked that into deadly
strange python
when was that?
hollow junco
i want to say cata is when that changed but i could be misremembering
empty badge
classic - like mop or something
hollow junco
no, leech was independent prior to legion
strange python
oh
hollow junco
once upon a time we separately had instant, deadly, wound, crippling, mind numbing
empty badge
we one that has a 5% chance to stun for 2 seconds without DR
strange python
dang
trim moat
Hey guys, quick question. When should I be using my punchard trinket? I've been using during the vendetta window when I start to get energy starved (at end of TB window)
trim moat
Oh so I shouldn't even be using it during vendetta eh?
rigid mango
Vendetta is whitlisted
Only rogue abilities get increased damage
Just like tb and MA too
trim moat
Ooooh shit, I had completely forgotten about that
For some reason I was thinking it was all dmg lmao
Thanks for the help
rigid mango
Glgl
royal lantern
happens too many people, tooltip is not very clear about it
same with master assassin and that the 50%crit is only for rogue abilitys
(would be cool too force a inkpod crit too)
eternal turtle
is there a max amount of garrote / rupture you want to keep up in aoe packs?
or just as many as possible assuming they will tick full/most of the duration
royal lantern
with or without EB?
rigid mango
At 3t+ you don't use unempowered garrotes
dense cedar
i crave death
royal lantern
with EB you do your 3x garrote from stealth, then get ~2ruptures out too spam fok endless
eternal turtle
alright
gray pond
@royal lantern after bleeds should we use only FoK or should we spend CP with envenom.
royal lantern
deepens on the situation
if the enemys are ALL at the same hp and would die at the same time
you keep on spamming FoK without spending CP
if there is a important target that needs too die faster(casters as an example) or something has way higher hp then the rest, you start too pump envenoms into that target
in bolster weeks you should try too get the enemys down too the same health % too
median sand
I haven't understood FoK spam...I feel like it's worth it to finish in order to keep up EP buff for FoK
rigid mango
10% damage increase isn't worth it if you're at the target count where mongo foking is worth it
royal lantern
sin aoe is not a set-in-stone''do this'' and more a ''react too the current situation''
scarlet hinge
'mongo foking' is my new favorite phrase.
royal lantern
lets call it
median sand
Yeah, it must be that I'm not seeing the amount of targets that allows for it 😦 My tank is pretty cautious lol
royal lantern
outlaw foking
eh, in most trashpacks you can do 3xgarrote>2xrupture>spamm fok for a bit until something comes out having more hp
you have 2 other people that do aoe and st dmg aswell
that all affects how you should do the trashpack
desert vault
Meh, Spymaster Wrap for my roll this week, guess it could be worse. Kind of lame for m+ but most chest pieces are other than Ceph
heavy trail
nice questions here I was wondering the same sorta thing lol
It seems that in lower keys if i just mongo fok spam with a few bleeds up I will get destroyed in aoe by hunters, DH, etc... seems to even out in my favor if the stuff stays alive a bit longer
royal lantern
sin aoe is more sustained
median sand
RIP outlaw 8/13/19
jolly comet
My best gear currently has 3SS 2TTK and 1 EB. I could switch out 1 SS for 1 EB to make 2/2/2. Do you think that would be better for all around or would the first build be better for Tyr and the 2/2/2 be better for fort weeks or something?
median sand
lol, we have no idea what it's like. we're 15 minutes into the nerf
royal lantern
2/2/2 is a good setup for almost everything
rigid mango
2/2/2 is generally better
heavy trail
first chest the pvp and i got a 25 ilevel + socket weapon increase, that is a good start to the week 😃
royal lantern
nerfed=ded
median sand
for the meme 😃
rigid mango
I've talked to the outlaw mods and they still, just like all the high rated players in here, think it's going to be fine
And still the better m+ spec 😄
median sand
we're in the sin discord...why not poke some fun at our OP brothers?
rigid mango
Because we're equally broken and have been for ages
and also it's so 
to hear the same comments over and over again
median sand
idk, I know sin is good....but I feel like we're only one of many specs performing really well rn
daring iron
what are the ideal traits for m+ with sin
rotund pier
hey does someone have the sim code to sim for different food?
daring iron
so like 3eb in places like freehold, 3tk on places like tyrannical kr lol
rigid mango
@rotund pier you can use the dropdown bar and sim them in diff sims
3 eb in fort fh/ml keys
3 ttk in weeks/comps where prio damage is really useful
3 SS in kr/ToS probs
modest tendon
rigid mango
Of course, just not as good as the others imo
desert vault
I want to run 3x SS, 2x ttk, 1x EB just can't get the dang gear for it
rigid mango
3 SS is only really amazing in kr/tos where you don't need the aoe at all
and most of the time you're at 3-4 targets, which is really good for SS
desert vault
this is an ugly week for M+ I think, bursting/necrotic
bronze kelp
- in kr and tos you normally have a bit time between pulls so restealth is not a problem
rigid mango
That too
bronze kelp
And that's a big + for 3 ss
jolly comet
@desert vault i have been running 3ss 2ttk 1EB i feel like i dont do enough aoe dmg. i might be doing something wrong though.
desert vault
yeah that is all I do, 10-15s
celest ruin
is sanguine monstrosity any good? my 420 gorak tuls sim higher than a 445 in both patchwerk and dungeon slice
rigid mango
literally the worst piece
celest ruin
o shit
rigid mango
It's bad for every spec
desert vault
Kind of low? Just need more benthic I guess?
rigid mango
That and a new dagger
desert vault
heh, that sweet vers/mast? 😛
bronze wagon
or do people actually run it
forest grotto
blightborne is very good
rigid mango
Upgrading non socketed benthic
bronze wagon
sweet okay
bronze wagon
fuck yes
celest ruin
meh ill just keep it for ilvl increase when pugging
desert vault
jeez, 445 gorak, 445 spymaster ... pretty sick
lean coral
im 443 in bags so idc about that
bronze wagon
been pretty lucky on the slot machine
desert vault
today was my first 445 roll, spymaster chest which is so-so
hollow junco
spymaster chest is upper bracket
it's no cephalohide, but it's good tier
good outcome imo
desert vault
yeah I'm not mad about it, wish it was better for m+, i'm still pretty much all 420s for m+
no good m+ pieces in new raid
desert vault
yeah but Incite the Pack is ... I mean nice mastery buff
bronze wagon
mastery isnt as useless for assas as it is outlaw so its got that going for it lol
snow grove
Hello i am new assassination player and looking for easiest build to learn the spec
desert vault
I need 7 more reliquary's, I forget is it 6 per boss?
median sand
I believe it's 7-9 per eligible boss
desert vault
oh ok, cool hopefully just one quick kill then on heroic
still need to get into mythic at some point, just about caught up with gear/essence crap
stable yarrow
PogU
vast forum
2nd best chest in the game PogU
stable yarrow
whats best? o.O
strange python
If I’m unable to get a 445 blightborn chest is spending on the 420 still better?
rigid mango
Blackwater
stable yarrow
ahh dat loyal
vast forum
loyal OP
rigid mango
Loyal is just stoopid
vast forum
legit, even without ppl dying, if you have 4 ppl in the grp it's stronk
rigid mango
dense cedar
so i sent 3 more over
cos i had 17 manapearls left
3 more tries
pls blizz
@rigid mango 
rigid mango
dense cedar
my last one too
other than min-maxing by getting frost bracers
I have all sockets now
wew
desert vault
ugh, 50 pearls for 420 ... this game
teal locust
Hi, in M+ AoE. How does this work with garrote? If i no benefit from subterfuge and have can just apply my normal garrote, is it worth to apply garrote in AoE? How much targets should be at least there to just spam Fan of knives and hit rupture/envenom without applying garrote?
desert vault
I have 455 gloves, but that are crap stats. My 440 socketed belt sims like 40 DPS better than 420 benthic+socket, or maybe it was 40 DPS worse, at least I don't have to chase that for a while
dense cedar
100 for 425 @desert vault
desert vault
...
dense cedar
I wish manapearl rng was better qq
rigid mango
@teal locust You don't reapply un-subterfuged garrotes at 3t+
desert vault
Was a ton of pearls available today on US
teal locust
Okay, i guess 2t+ with echoing blades azerite trait? Or doesnt it changes it?
rigid mango
What?
bronze wagon
Is there a bis tier list for azerite in a spreadsheet anywhere?
rigid mango
Not really
It's either zaq helm + goraks + blackwater/cepha
Blackwater is technically A bit better thanks to the potential gain of someone dyuing
bronze wagon
gotcha
teal locust
I think you dont garrote at 3 targets, because you do more dmg with FoK + finisher than using garrote. If you got the echoing blades trait FoK would do more dmg than using mutilate on 2 targets. So would FoK with echoingblades + finisher be more worth in terms of dmg on 2 targets than applying garrote. Or is there another reason you dont garrote at 3 targets? The cp generating on crits maybe?
raw fox
First time doing this raid in mythic and I'm sucking it up lol
rigid mango
@teal locust the reason is that it just doesn't deal as much damage, you'd want it for the energy reg by being a bleed but rupture is more worth it
desert vault
finally swapping back to MA, this should be fun screwing this up for a little bit 😃
teal locust
Ah, alright. Now i understand. Thanks!
vocal ginkgo
how is the 2nd vendetta with vanish rotation like with MA and CLF, ive been using SS with subterfuge and just recently changed to MA
dense cedar
Vendetta > TB > Vanish @vocal ginkgo
Then use the MA window to get Mut > Envenom out
insidde TB
fleet whale
440 boots from the chest 😦
dense cedar
any good for M+? @fleet whale
fleet whale
i don't even think they would be an upgrade for that, as my M+ boots are 430s with a socket and crit mast
the 440s also have crit, but less so do to the socket
i'll still keep them for when this tier is done though
fervent timber
How good is a Phial of the arcane tempest (415 with socket) compared to a 400 ilvl Highbourne Compendium of sundering?
hollow junco
neither are terribly exciting trinkets and any answer here is an educated guess at best
teal locust
With echoing blades is it worth to use FoK on 2 targets? or even with 3 echoing blades it isnt worth at all?
teal locust
I dont know about the phial in m+. I got it in 445 with socket, but its worse in m+ than my 430 electromantle in a jar. Phial sims higher, but after every dungeon it is worse.
dense cedar
422 ilvl in benthic gear 😎
desert vault
Most of the logs I've looked at show Coral being used after MA window of first Vanish? Guess it doesn't matter too much huh? The second application is the more important one?
weird, this log shows the guy using second Coral 17s after 2nd Vendetta ...
mystic charm
Anyone know if a rogue can solo soak the frenetic charge from Silivaz at mythic Queen's Court encounter with evasion or clos ?
It does say frost damage, maybe cloak will work.
vapid geode
for M+ I have a 445 azerite piece without EB or SS, do you think my 420 helm with EB is better?
dark crag
Yes
vapid geode
😦 feelsbad
reef frigate
Just rolled a 445 gol turak mantle! Aye
lament dove
everyone is talking about BotE, am I the only one who is simming this much lower with it?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mssu2nQf6Y7q5pxpWFBrPh
cobalt pelican
looks fairly normal
lean coral
all these people lucky enoug to get gorak tuls but dont have benthic T_T
woeful minnow
bote was the goto before people got clf3 but yes that's normal
dark crag
Ha, got benthic bracers today
woeful minnow
cheer up, I wasted all my luck on benthic, I can't get a trinket to save my life
lean coral
on mythic zaqul
dark crag
Also goraks 445 a few weeks ago
woeful minnow
I rolled the worst 445 shoulders too
crimson condor
@vapid geode I'm still running two 420 azerite pieces due to bad trait rolls lol
opal minnow
I've resigned myself to playing outlaw due to bad azerite rolls and no mythic azerite pieces. Feelsbad
fleet whale
i just rolled for 430s for azerite. Just replaced my last 420 piece. Now im rocking 3 SS, 2 EB, 1 TTK
would prefer 2 2 2, but it's still good
wrong channel
brazen prawn
What’s the optimal Azerite setup for M+? Running triple SS rn and one of my m8’s said it isn’t bis anymore
fleet whale
a mod might be able to switch it though
shut garnet
thatd be good since im on my phone XD
desert vault
if you were to macro an essence is it a /use or /cast, anyone know?
fleet whale
triple SS isn't that big of a deal if it's the best you have
just make sure you have some EB with it
dark crag
/cast Heart Essence
rotund pier
whats going to be the 3 best essences at 65? Condensed 1, Lucid 2, which one 3?
fleet whale
either Iris or crucible
rotund pier
yea sim it i know, just curious
fleet whale
yeah, conflict is pretty decent, might be worth getting for M+
rotund pier
honor week, guess ill farm R3 blood even tho prob wont use now
royal lantern
blood is good for m+ sooooo..
rotund pier
m+ as outlaw, but i mean maybe not now with the nerf to BF, but who knows
royal lantern
for sin too
royal lantern
there are weeks when iris is not THAT great, or dungeons
desert vault
so really no way to bind CLF with Vendetta cause of GCD?
red plaza
correct
haughty parrot
red plaza
CLF
real bay
you dont want to use gcd for essence in vendetta
red plaza
MA opener if all your mut's crit should be mut > rup > mut > garrote > clf > vendet > tb > vanish > env > mut > env
desert vault
I'm old, so trying to make life as easy as I can using font/coral/clf 😛
Today I've swapped back to MA for first time in a while, added CLF for first time, and just started using font/coral
red plaza
i changed some keybindings when 8.2 came out to add essence button and then for double on use trinket. I found it easy to play, once you get used to it, to have trinket 1 and trinket 2 bound to the same key and vendetta and essence bound to the same key with a shift modifier
dark crag
F1 trinket 1 f2 trinket 2. My f keyes are directly above the numbers
desert vault
My keybinds are painful 😃
dark crag
1-5 qer fg cvb f1 f2 f3 + alt mods
vagrant tapir
Running 2ttk 2ss 2eb atm, 420 helm, 420 shoulders 445 chest. I could swap the 420 helm from ttk eb, to a 435 helm with SoB/NP ttk, worth?
i know sob is bad
and np isn't really useful in m+
rigid mango
Yeah.
vast forum
not worth swapping that for m+ at all
vagrant tapir
didnt feel worth either
lone junco
for hpal, glimmer, the qelive showed that a 30 ilvl loss was a 38% gain. To go from 2x to 3x glimmer.
traits gonna trait.
reef frigate
Hi guys, just got BoTE 3, where should i use it in my opening?
i'm doing the new MA opening
rigid mango
Should be in pins 😄
devout bolt
hi guys, best opener? guide shows two different ones.. MA without any SS - thx in advance
rigid mango
They're pretty much equal, new one is slightly better
crystal vault
hey ppl, on 3-4 min fights, do you safe your 2nd vendetta for 2nd guardian?
life force *
dense cedar
anyone know which effect on the physical dmg belt or frost gloves scales better?
crystal vault
hmm, top parses dont do that, atleast the ones i checked 
rigid mango
Because it doesn't really matter
Very small diff, and they probs don't care
But it is a gain
dense cedar
No one knows qq
shadow agate
Pulled a 445 Galecaller's from my chest today, I really dislike that trinket, but it can be so good. Exang burst was awesome with it early expansion, but it still sims lower than TB. Run mostly M+, any thoughts?
desert vault
Funny I went from 433 to 434 today but my sim went up like 5k. Nice getting caught up with the proper stuff
shadow agate
oh shoot just realized I didn't swap azerite talents off the piece I was siming against from my outlaw set... rip
vocal kelp
lone junco
better than a stick in the mud or guessing.
shadow agate
I mean it seems to run closer than just doing patchwork for my real numbers so I still use it vs that for simmin m+ sets
lone junco
i would use guide or experienced player advice like the ss/tb/eb combos, then stack crit, drop haste
shadow agate
and of course TB is better than exang on sheet, but the synergy between that trinket and exang early expansion like I said was great so it never hurts to sim it.
lone junco
in M+ with lucid minor the energy gain from exang is irrelevant
shadow agate
The trinket itself is just a pain in the ass to use, hope no one moves!
lone junco
yeah we used GCB for a while. it was never that fun
rigid mango
GCB is atrocious in m+ too
lone junco
yeah. I got it first week of BFA, and the circle was about half the current size
was silly.
YEE> wait im out of range.
SO MUCH HASTE no where to go
shadow agate
the absolute worst. I'll test it because it's a massive upgrade in theory over my 400 dice I've had no luck upgrading, but we'll see if it stays effective at all
lone junco
and added run speed to boot
idk man, 445 is big, but only use on bosses and haste is bad in M+. grats on st trinket.
shadow agate
yup, I was pretty sad when I got it haha
shadow agate
yeah I noticed right after posting lol
lone junco
Rip
dense cedar
oh no
shadow agate
when simmed correctly i gained a whole 14 dps, totally worth
true nexus
Pure st what's the name of the game 3 no 3 dd?
lone junco
then everything depends on actuall pull sizes and restealths and timing so good luck.
dense cedar
all those engineers
sullen pagoda
lone junco
there was one guy subterfuge 3ss right below them. so 
dense cedar
I ahve a 435 Zaqul helm which is p. nice
royal lantern
just roll bis items, commone, its ez guys
rich wren
sturdy dust
Anyone with good luck in their mythic + cache today?
shut garnet
when are random 445 pieces getting cheaper btw? or is the number of residuum per week gonna increase
shut garnet
just seems a bit odd youd have to save like 3 weeks for ONE random 445
bronze kelp
Same as last season
cobalt pelican
it's the exact same as last season, 2 decent keys 3 plebber keys
rigid mango
Just two 18's and it's every other week
true nexus
Mission?
shut garnet
ithought the residuum caps at 15s
shy axle
no, only the loot
fleet whale
so does anyone else have crit as their highest stat for ST?
even at like 32% it's still my highest
shy axle
can be yeah
empty crescent
does nothing personal stack
hollow junco
the dmg goes up wiht more traits yes, but you don't get more energy
empty crescent
okay, thats fine thanks
zenith gust
true nexus
Don't think so
fleet whale
there are some cases where it can kind of be useful, but i'll say like 99% of sin rogues who do M+ don't use it
bronze kelp
CT is not useful
On high targets where is would make sense FoK with eb traits does more dmg
rigid mango
Only time I've seen CT being used was a 20 FH, used by seli with 3 eb and blood or smth
even then I don't even think it's that good 😄
shut pasture
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
bronze kelp
Nacoo is a really good sin player maybe he has a scenario where it is useful
shut pasture
I can't find the aoe rotation on wowhead and ravenholdt
bronze kelp
But I can't think of one atm
shut pasture
can someone point me to it?