ass M+ preferes EB and lots of crit I believe
#assassination
fallen bridge
toxic minnow
is tricks of the trade broken?
civic palm
Nope.
toxic minnow
just keep getting invalid target
spice surge
Neural silencer/mounted on your target
weak garnet
What would be better for M+ in the +15-17 range, 3EB 1SS or 3SS 1EB?
weak garnet
k, thanks. Hoping to get better azerite, but not much luck lately
real bay
finally opu crown mythic 
pog
civic palm
prime quail
Which Talent do You run for Big pull ids? CT or PB?
solar rose
CT
ionic arrow
how do people get azerite items with eb and ss? it doenst drop in the raid. There are some in dungeons but I have never seen dropping one. Do azerite items actually drop in dungeons?
strange python
conclave has ss eb chest
ionic arrow
indeed lol
stable pine
@rose perch why 3SS for bolster?
rose perch
I was more thinking EB bad, rather than SS particularly good for bolster
Ttk is one of the big winners bolstering week imo
scarlet gorge
Im using a piece with eb and sob
ionic arrow
whats better for m+ il 400 with ss and eb or il 415 with ss and np?
burnt dome
I run 2EB 2SS 1DD or TTK and a NP this week. Loving it. There’s a lot of pulls in dungeons where there is 1 mob with higher health, pop vendetta on that & keep AoEing while it also makes sure you still have plenty of ST dps on bosses
Hard to say @ionic arrow , but I would guess EB if you otherwise don’t have a EB.
ionic arrow
thanks
ionic arrow
do I activate vendetta or trinkets first?
steep obsidian
yeah i find ttk really good for those prio mobs, maybe its not as good on overall for padding but this week on bolstering its great
burnt dome
Trinket then vendetta
steep obsidian
i just macro them together if they cd is the 2 mins
bright elk
When or how often do you sim your character to adjust stat weights? After every new piece of gear?
rancid bobcat
Yup
royal lantern
stat weights is a....weird sim cus it doesnt REALLY help that much tbh
rancid bobcat
Every change in stats will change weights just slightly
But yeah it's also not foolproof
royal lantern
its great that you know your best stat now, but you actually need the gear with the ''best'' stat now
tbf, just use topgear and you are fine most of the time
bright elk
I mainly use it to figure which enchants and gems to use. For gear I always pick highest ilvl.
royal lantern
but
you can sim enchants and gems too with topgear...?
and always picking highest ilvl is not smart
there are slots like rings/trinkets where ilvl is basicly a dead stat
looks good, nothing else
bright elk
Prob is when it tell you gem haste the you sim and it say go back to gem crit. I get lost
royal lantern
then keep the haste gem
cerulean walrus
Yeah if I went by ilvl back when Fathoms was absolutely BiS over nearly everything. If I had swapped... holy shit so much lost DPS
bright elk
It gets stuck in that loop
cerulean walrus
Because your stat priority is swapping after the gems
So keep the gems that sim the absolute highest
bright elk
Ok thanks
royal lantern
you do a sim with 1 empty socket, and haste has slightly more value then crit for you right now
so the sim tells you too get a haste gem ofc
when you sim again your haste is now higher and crit has more value, so it tells you too get a crit gem
its a bit of a shity circle, but makes sense for the simulation
marble hemlock
for comparing multiple items/gems topgear is usually the better choice. statweights just give you a general idea of what might be an upgrade, and how big of an upgrade it can be, but you should always do a direct comparison between 2 pieces before deciding on one of them
royal lantern
and never go ilvl over everything
except on mainhand weapon
always check if it is ACTUALLY better
visual quartz
I've seen that most times it just shows all 3 gems as = to each other, so keep what ya have if gold is an issue
marble hemlock
ye
i personally socket haste in items i only use for raids, crit in the ones i only use for m+, and mastery in the ones i use for both
😛
visual quartz
I've learned to listen to topgear even if I personally think the piece isnt an upgrade. losing crit mastery for haste vers but topgear says its better means it knows and I just believe hah
marble hemlock
sims dont account for gameplay "feel"
might tell you that haste/vers gear is better than crit-items, but then you run an m+ with 23% crit and realize its awful to play
royal lantern
GCB sims good, in reality my golden plumage is better for raids cus you can use it on cd without fucking something up
marble hemlock
some trinkets also are fairly inconsistent. they may be the best over 25k iterations, but if you need conistency on a pull-to-pull basis during progression, they might not be the best choice etc.
visual quartz
Been hating GCB lately, so much boss movement just makes it feel like an empty slot 😦
been running siege and KR alot, no luck yet
mint peak
PVP trinket can be used instead of plumage if you enjoy that
dark crag
Its the same like plumage
autumn shoal
Hey guys, 1 question, i can play with 3x double dose and 3x nothing personnal but raidbots tell me to use 2x double dose, 1x nothing personnal, 1x coverus, 1x twist the knife and 1x blightborne infusion, it's because my stats? because if i check herodamage or bloodmallet it's not what i see, somebody with the same thing?
sturdy python
Ilvl makes a difference. Also the third ring of traits
Overwhelming power makes a pretty big difference
You’d need to post the sim to get any more details
red plaza
Could also try simming TC uptime @90% as some fights it won't be up all the time.
wooden fog
3x DD 3x NP may be better for you on some fights such as Mekk, and if you play better with them, go with that set up. Also, NP Sims good but if there is random spontaneous boss movement that makes you lose value, then go with the criteria trinket. I use Sims as a baseline and think critically what it is telling me and puty spin on it. @autumn shoal
@autumn shoal spell correction screwed one of my sentences up, it was supposed to say: Also, galecaller's Sims well but if there is a lot of random boss movement, then it will lose value, so it may be beneficial to go with the crit trinket
autumn shoal
Thanks, that's i imagine for this trinket too, i tried it on mekka, what a bad moove, i'm trying to sim this build in light movement and heavy movement too see a bit. An other question if i can : i can see some rogue playing with the bleed build (shrouded suffocation x2-3), what is better? MA or Subterfuge? Raidbots tell me MA with double dose it's better but when i see top 1 with subterfuge and shrouded suffocation i ask myslef to the relevance of MA
vital haven
@autumn shoal sims check the relationship between every single azerite trait
herodamage and bloodmallet do not
from what i understand blightborne infusion works really well with DD
round harbor
@marble hemlock yo if ur jc that new item is dope. You get to take the gems in and out of sockets for free just keep 12 of each gem in your bags and don't have to to buy anymore for the rest of expac. I switched to all crit for m+ and all haste for raid
rancid bobcat
Isn't blight borne just a crit proc
round harbor
Yeah
marble hemlock
lw+engi
round harbor
Ew lw
marble hemlock
not gonna swap off of lw until i get good boots+legs
rancid bobcat
Might just be a stat-weight like behavior
round harbor
3 dd and 3 np is gonna be highly consistent. While bb could be better if it procs at the right times it's gonna be rng. You'd hate to get a proc of it the second after ur vendetta runs out
Also TC may not be favourable in some scenarios
autumn shoal
Thanks all for your answer 😃
turbid stratus
should you wait for envenom buff to expire before using envenom again ?
red plaza
In TB windows, no
turbid stratus
but in other cases, yes ?
i'm having energy problems usually and losing on dps because of that
prime quail
you guys recommend TB or Exsang ? what does it usally depend on
lone junco
Most use TB these days.
exang had a spot with 3ss and GCB haste trinket. but TB works really well with DD and TTK and it is ready more often.
@turbid stratus what do you mean energy problems? It is a slow spec at best in ST raid dps. in cleave you should have enough bleeds out to be Infinite E.
vast forum
exsg also had a spot with 750 additional haste with RA
and the general ability to cleave 2+ targets on most bosses in uldir
basically every boss, except mother and taloc had some sort of cleave
wooden fog
@autumn shoal SSx2-3 can def be better on fights that you can consistently apply 2-3 garrotes every 2-2:30 minutes. For example, H rasta is a good fight to use 3x ss, or mythic grong where 2 adds spawn every 2-minutes.
spice surge
Thing is though, you don't need to kill both grong adds very fast, nor do you need to kill all the rasta adds fast, mostly just the jumpy boy
It will do more damage on the meters yes, but is it better? Debatable
solar rose
The faster you kill them the faster your raid can go on the boss, so it’s a net gain for the raid if you kill them faster.
Running 2-3ss is “better” not mandatory though
spice surge
You only need to kill one, and that one needs to die within 15s
The second one you have a little over a minute to kill
wooden fog
I think ss is just better at padding the meters, id agree with you Eleem
prime quail
when echo blades traits are used you go for the Hidden Blades talent ?
lone junco
not normally
solar rose
Your not gonna have people sit there and kick it nor are you going to have people on the mob. Your actually better off killing it quickly and getting your entire raid more uptime on the boss
lone junco
@prime quail M+?
prime quail
yes
lone junco
1ss min.
3 eb if you can get it.
Fill with TTK or BBI
Subterfuge/tb/pb.
spice surge
The easier option is definitely to kill of both grong adds asap, but if you wanted to be efficient you would kill one and then have ranged kicking and cleaving the other
lone junco
there are bigger cleave builds, but thats a good start.
turbid stratus
@lone junco yes, my problems are mainly in ST and i figured out i spammed mutilate mutilate envenom too much so my question was if you usually wait for envenom buff to wear off before using it again
spice surge
But also, the faster you kill the adds the worse ss is 🤷
lone junco
thats fine. spamming till you are dry, will result in pretty limp TB windows.
solar rose
If your entire raid swaps to the adds you still get almost full duration garrotes
spice surge
Obv depends on your raid dps
solar rose
If you can link me a log of the adds not living ~15-18s I’ll be impressed.
obtuse ruin
guys whats your ideal stat prio for m+? im at 30-20-30 crit haste mastery right now
obtuse ruin
yeah got 2 EB 3 SS
lone junco
cause you said ideal
obtuse ruin
5% haste?
lone junco
it is a dead stat once you tab out ruptures in cleave.
obtuse ruin
going to feel super weird for ST tho
lone junco
if you have some, know you will do a little more dps on ST bosses.
thats your choice.
obtuse ruin
think ima try to go down to 10-15% haste and dump rest into mastery
obtuse ruin
dice and vers trinkets
solar rose
With 2-3 eb versatility’s value increases a lot. If you have high item level versatility pieces it’s worth dropping some mastery for it
lone junco
- once you have the crit to proc EB
obtuse ruin
oh almost have 0 vers...
lone junco
ive seen a few logs of 55-65% fok crit.
solar rose
I think 30-35% crit is fine tbh especially if your using a dice or spyglass
lone junco
sure.
solar rose
And running st least 1 deadly nav
lone junco
vers scales the eb hit. but you gotta proc it first.
spice surge
Crit is still vastly more important than either vers or mastery
lone junco
you can sim 10t40s for the fat cleave. or dungeon slice. but id pump the crit until you cant.
prime quail
mydas talisman or Fathoms card trinket?
spice surge
Preferably neither, but probably fathoms
lone junco
remember to tab out the 3 garrotes, into rupture then fok rupture a few times. so you can sustain
obtuse ruin
yep I try to put atleast 3-4 ruptures up
rn im only doing around 27-28k dps per dungeon for 405 ilvl
lone junco
once you have inifinte E. with tabbed bleeds, use fok env, to balance them out for bursting or whatever affix.
spice surge
You don't need 4 ruptures up, you just need 4 total bleeds
obtuse ruin
oh true
lone junco
I still run 1 scent. so I guess im the weird one
415 ss/scent will hang around for a while.
- just dont do any non ss garrotes. they are trash.
obtuse ruin
gotcha
lone junco
the rest are limp
could vanish for 3 more if you are feeling fancy
but i save that for bosses or prio targets.
obtuse ruin
alright got it
solar rose
You only really non empowered garrote if you REALLY need the energy. But you shouldn’t
obtuse ruin
probably will take some time to get used to lower haste
what dps do you guys normally end up at after a m+
lone junco
meh.
pulsar goblet
30-40k depending on pulls/dungeon/affixes
shell zealot
hey guys, been trying 2xss,3EB, 1ttk, with yiulon 415 and dice 400socket. as my general keystone build. I have been trying CT instead PB on anything other then KR. My question is, should i use CT during boss fights for the dot? or refrain from using it?
spice surge
Only use at 3+ targets to maintain the dot. Not on st
shell zealot
this are my sims(quite new to keystones and building a propper build):https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/s6gfKbAuhcotYNfWgrTQaS
ionic arrow
Whats the main goal/Rotation on +3. trash and reaping grps. I got ss and put on 3 garrotes, rupture and then just spamm fok ( I got eb) and envenom. Ja this the right way?
*1 rupture
shell zealot
i have noticed at even without CT if u dont 4 targets up with ruptre u can hit higher then 100k on reap
with though i have hit 130K on the reaping pull( in freehold or larger dungeons)
by jsut Spamming FOK and reapplying envenom or rupture to keep the EP buff up
tldr: apply 3 garrote, 4 ruptures, envenom, then spam FOK(over cap CPs) and only do a finisher to reapply a rupture or to keep ur ep /envenom buff
ionic arrow
Much thanks!
The ruptures at die beginning are 5cp ruptures right? And I dont reapply rupture if they dont last for the full 24 Sec duration or?
round harbor
With reaping I'm for sure just spamming for on like 10 mobs
I'm not sure what the math is if you ever stop using finishers but feelycraftinf is that it's only worth to snipe ruptures to main infinite energy
bleak spoke
I think it varies on 2 vs 3 EB
With two I think you maintain eb with 3 I don’t think so
Ep*
i think the set up for reaps is always 4 dots without consideration to CP other than not putting out like 2 cp ruptures
and then after that you never maintain but you snipe
like if you want to pad
if you actually want to be usefulprobably hunt down lost souls and sink envenoms into them idk
or whichever the miniboss ones r
weak garnet
When you say 4 dots is that including the 3 initial garrotes with ss?
real tundra
Does anyone else have a hard time with Crimson Temptest not showing up in AskMrRobot sims?
round harbor
More than half the time we pull reaping into a boss or another m ob or 4
So probly most worth just getting ruptures on the new 1m+ targets then just going to town
Just different on a pull by pull basis
bleak spoke
4 dots meaning garrotes or ruptures
what i mean is that the strategy is chain-pull blind
doesn't matter how it's played
though i recommend getting empowered garrotes on prio targets if you pull with reaping
so if you look at the anatomy of a reaping played in a meta fashion you pull it into the next set of mobs and ideally you get a restealth between pack -> reap + pack innit
so if you play a reap in a place like UR, you'd get garrotes out on a flower, a maggot and a swarmer or something and then you'd rupture the swarmer cuz it's highest prio
then during the reaping most likely you'd have a kick on the flower, an IB kidney when you're low energy on the maggot and some envenoms on the swarmer, etc
if you play a massive pack with the reap the reap's like secondary
so you'd garrote 2 swarmers and a flower, then vanish to garrote maggot + rot or maybe refresh on the swarmers, kinda deal
if the reap comes in waves you can use the "time" that reaping takes to get there to just rupture new targets so you have an energy bank kinda
and then you can output the vanish garrotes without starving
in that scenario you're very very very high energy and energy positive with 3-5 empowered garrotes and like 4+ ruptures out and you'd just spam FOK to get the global hp pool of the pull down, etc
and then as the pull comes to a close you'll experience a huge dropoff in energy wherein you need to snipe ruptures or you're gigastarved etc
point is, it's mostly feelycraft
white basalt
Any tips for reaping DPS? How do you target mobs? Tab dotting seems easiest but I waste dots on targets that die anyways. Also, seems im at the tanks mercy cause if the adds aren't stacked well, it's hard to get those buffed garrote during the 3 sec window
royal lantern
weell
lost souls and casters have priority with dots cus they stay alive for more then 5sec
pale agate
Sometimes I wait for the casters to start casting because then tab target will usually auto target them. This is more for getting silences out than finding the highest hp guys though
pale agate
But yeah being able to pick targets out of a reaping pack is a mechanic onto itself
bleak spoke
to grab the casters in the back cuz you'll both group them and get garrotes out on the targets that live longest
pale agate
Yeah getting the ones in the back is a good tip. Usually always a couple stragglers hanging out at the edge blasting you, esp if no DK
bleak spoke
only really relevant for really scary reapings tho imo, like shrine reaps
white basalt
Thanks guys
subtle drift
Trinkets and weapons
solar rose
You have 2 echoing blades for a patchwerk fight, that trait is really bad unless you're doing heavy cleave. Scent also on pure single target is meh
If you look at your damage breakdown, you can see you actually get 0 value
round harbor
Hate to see it
civic palm
The classic, "We don't press that button", DPS loss.
hollow sky
Then I need better gear I guess. I’m stuck with 2 echoing because no better traits on the gear I have
And I don’t have any SS option
I’m forced to run 2 NP, 2 Echoing, and 1 DD
civic palm
What's the option OTHER THAN Echoing Blades on those pieces though?
It's probably better.
hollow sky
What is the ideal trait setup
If you could have the perfect gear and stack any traits
What would it look like
civic palm
For ST? M+? STinM+?
fallow peak
Hello, I’ve been running 3eb/2ss/1ttk in mythic plus. Specced toxic blade... should I be using crimson tempest? Not running anything higher than 15
I get the benefit of tb on single target but bosses seem to move so much I wonder if I’m missing out on a lot of that single target benefit
I’m sorry, meant poison bomb not toxic blade
lone junco
CT is more AOE, at the loss of ST on bosses, or your TTK.
when you are in cleave and want to pump env, you can do that with pbomb.
PB can do work in large packs as well. so. its up to you.
fallow peak
Ok I’m obviously much more familiar with poison bomb so probably the better option for me
steep basin
hollow stone
Embrace ma lyfe
golden relic
10 sockets in gear now 
got a 400 dice with socket, adios 410 dice
primal gazelle
think its possible to refund a 110 lvl boost? 
primal gazelle
damn youre right
lvl a dk, its 113 rn but its soooo boring
lack of mobility tilts me
drifting cloud
ionic arrow
@drifting cloud psssstt
lone junco
maybe they give you instore credit.
golden relic
Man i told u it was boring b4 lmao
aint worth the fat dmg u r gna do later
think i did like 3 quests and a island exp b4 i gave up lul
pale agate
leveling dk is pretty fast if you tank dungeons in lfg. you're hilariously unkillable so you can do some really dumb pulls
sturdy python
Wouldnt hurt to try. However, when I did they told me that the trial is there to make sure you like it so its your fault basically
humble crane
Been away for 6 weeks, so far behind on residuum, I need better traits. Went up like 7 ilvls this week though
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kLYQTo4w2HgjEAnJhAWtru
onyx rock
So what ?
lone junco
Rude ?
humble crane
Thats ok, I just see since ive gotten back most people that are parsing well are running MA with 3 x DD, 3 x NP traits
just behind on 6 weeks of residuum sucks
since im straight in for jaina prog, I can see how those traits would come in handy for certain parts of the fight
sullen pagoda
yeah traits make big difference, you are same ilvl as me and sim about 1.3k less https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/3tMgEHLzSeKFvgtXAXmexN
humble crane
yep
handicapped by traits atm 😦
there is a 398 alt rogue in my guild simming for 23k with 3 x dd, 3 x NP XD
and he only has a 385 dice and 380 plumage lol
humble crane
I got shitloads of sockets =(, just trashola traits
primal gazelle
this is the bis trait for my dk
placid dawn
is the vendetta dot from the trait affected by haste?
tame granite
is dd better than ss now
scenic birch
3x SS + 3x EB or 1x SS 2x EB 2xttk? for m+ ofc
weak garnet
Is there a particular sim that works best for m+ on raidbots? The dungeon slice seems kinda wonky for assass.
lost horizon
@placid dawn yes
@weak garnet slice is the best you're gonna get realistically
if you're interested in just a single instance of a particularly large pull you can do patchwerk 10targets for x amount of time
and tinker w/hero or not
weak garnet
for a rough estimate on damage slice seems ok, but for azerite traits it seems really bad imo.. Tells me not to take any EB at all
lost horizon
slice doesn't have big pulls like reaping
and overvalues ST/boss dmg
traits you have to figure out yourself for M+
cause it depends on dungeon, affixes, how your group will pull
and if you're nelf factors in a bit too
since meld can act as a second vanish (on trash), giving you juicy SS value
weak garnet
Fair enough
placid dawn
is the haste increase on vendetta dot included in simc?
i dont know if i should use a second NP or TC
haughty mulch
What should I be trying to get my haste to at least?
harsh sphinx
for what content
visual quartz
sim yourself?
cobalt gyro
As much as your sim tells you to get
scenic saffron
3ttk+2eb+1ss or 2ttk+2eb+1tc+1ss for m+ ?
lone junco
Can sim dungeon slice. Or drop the tc to help the healer.
3eb is nice though. Maybe one day. 👌
placid dawn
thats why im asking if it is. I remeber a while ago it wasnt included
strange python
cobalt gyro
you did good my dude
if we pulled bigger too 100% we timed that temple @rustic ether
rustic ether
i can main sub if if they fix it
id honestly rather
because thats actually a fun flow
cobalt gyro
didn't seem right to run 2x assa 🤷
carmine silo
what stats and traits do you run as assa in the high(20) keys, i feel like my st as outlaw is nearly similar while the aoe is alot more
with alot of haste / crit
bleak spoke
Double assa doesn’t seem like the play unless you’re coordinating silences probably
Like I can see some hilarious shit
rustic ether
double sin shrine
bleak spoke
Like 18 seconds of silence in snek room
Oh right you guys are alliance
Literally twice as long
Lool
Nothing casting ever
bleak spoke
Like in a shrine you could probably pull everything around first ele
With some sprint tricks garrote silence deal
rustic ether
would require some LEET fucking skill though and im not up for that level
bleak spoke
Like play 2 spiritualists 4 attendants 2 templars
Nah just pretricks
My team almost got it with a dh and a hunter but tank fell to water blasts on a 19 or something
With double sin that would be 0 water blasts
rustic ether
oh wait back to the original question! @carmine silo id play sin if you have the traits. sin brings a decent slow if you also need that
but in general outlaw normally performs better due to being able to chain pull and being far easier in st and aoe
bleak spoke
I’d argue that you only shouldn’t chain pull for assa if you need silence
At least that’s what I tell my tanks and usually I’m competitive even with 3 ttk and not 3 eb
rustic ether
yeah with meld i tell tanks not to worry too much but for others i feel like they struggle without meld lol
bleak spoke
But when I have 2+ ss I cry blood when chain pulls happen lol
The low whisper over discord “but why would you-“ lmao
rustic ether
yeah i can typically sit back with hero and shadowstep to the new pull and get restealths
lmfao
bleak spoke
Yeh usually I hang back but some chains are with shit that casts random target or party wide
rustic ether
or when youre taken out of stealth early and you panic have to get as many garrotes off as you can
bleak spoke
Oh yeah the panic shadowstep into range haha
Like the lightning dudes before third boss of temple
rustic ether
omg on a 22 that was fucking terrifying
bleak spoke
Cuz moment they’re tagged they zap up everyone
rustic ether
yeah lol
bleak spoke
God it’s gross even on lower keys
Was doing a guild run of a 14 that was kinda scuffed and saw like 2 people get one shot one after another
rustic ether
lmao
cobalt gyro
on a 22 i just didn't stop moving
bleak spoke
To be fair was some interesting take on the bolstering affix
bleak spoke
Yeh legit I just strafe like it’s witches in waycrest
rustic ether
saw dh get fucking ROCKED by one
bleak spoke
If the swirls on you you literally have to cloak insta
Like the swirly means it’s too late lool
cobalt gyro
naw you need it for boss/zaps
rustic ether
i think if i didnt gamble and save cloak that boss coulda killed us lmao
bleak spoke
Yeh can step out too I guess
cobalt gyro
yo for real
rustic ether
if both our cloaks were down that early we were probs fucked
bleak spoke
I don’t understand how the tyrannical keys on that are done for the wf keys
rustic ether
yeha you healed more than dh
cobalt gyro
it's because
bleak spoke
What the fuck
cobalt gyro
tyrannical bosses 1 shot you
but you hero + burst through it
/save cds
but on high fort half the trash is like
just as much HP as bosses almost
bleak spoke
Yeh but it’s not like you’d save ar really
rustic ether
and also the group typically doesnt spread the totems around as much
so healer can just pump into 1-2 people instead of 3-5
bleak spoke
I like the reap before third to give cd time tbh
Like I feel okay vendetta on the staircase pull with the elemental and 2 lightning things
cobalt gyro
we (same group) did that in a 20 and we pull the reaping on the stairs with the next pack of 4 dervishes
now talk about fucking spook
bleak spoke
4 monkagiga
Legit when a tank moves towards the lone one I’m always like “are you sure about that man” lmao
rustic ether
sprint running around everyhting in a circle
bleak spoke
Do you get dmg reduction from iron wire if you can’t silence the target
I think you do right
bleak spoke
Yeh but I mean minibosses and dervishes and the like
Also ffs I have to play so much assa tomorrow
Holding multiple shrines and I have a 20 again this week somehow
cobalt gyro
also if you look at nelf assas sims on like hero damage or something
bleak spoke
And I want to time that shit
cobalt gyro
yes it really is that rediculous
bleak spoke
Dude I’ve been so upset I can’t be nelf
cobalt gyro
this guy would do more than i would as outlaw on pretty much every pull that didn't live more than 20 seconds
cobalt gyro
i think he did more overall on the underrot but
i had a lot of stun + interupts i was holding gcds for
bleak spoke
Like the sheer throughput of garrote 7 Garrote 8 Garrote 9 is fucking dumb
cobalt gyro
and you can restealth between chain pulls
bleak spoke
That’s legit 160k dps over seconds and then any ebs are just gratuitous between them
And it’s focused damage too
Like I’d probably play nothing but 3 ss 3 eb mongo exsang with hidden blades or something
If I were nelf
Is everyone who does keys on alliance basically nelf at this point
cobalt gyro
dwarf tanks + nelf everyone else is p much bis
cobalt gyro
dwarf or diron
bleak spoke
Stoneform in King’s rest sounds so giga
cobalt gyro
both are p alright
think last week
we could big pull and just
lolstoneform off necrotic
bleak spoke
Wait
cobalt gyro
yes
cobalt gyro
defensive utility
bleak spoke
It’s too bad you can’t merc like in pvp and play with the other faction
cobalt gyro
should be able to imo
bleak spoke
Yeh
That would join the m+ community in a great way
And being able to play arcane torrents and also shadowmeld would make dungeons so sick
rustic ether
would be really difficult to implement though
maybe make it so if youre not in WM you could merc? idk
bleak spoke
Yeh I mean the tech is there already for instances like bgs
rustic ether
would probably take the game in a new direction that wouldnt be too good lol
bleak spoke
And arenas
rustic ether
yeah but thats instanced content that is set up after you go in
theyd have to somehow give the ability to form groups between horde and ally
without just abandoning lorelol
bleak spoke
I’m sure okay with switching to nelf for giga tryharding if I didn’t have to ditch my entire friends list etc
There’s a reason mdi teams all flip ally when they play tr
Also other than literally the rogues you can count off on your fingers as the absolute best we’re seeing a ton of ally rogues in the top 100 I think
But most of them are horde for raiding I think
cobalt gyro
i'll be there soon
bleak spoke
It’s just more efficient
rustic ether
im pushing for it >:D
bleak spoke
Top 500 of my group doesn’t scuff this set of keys we have, I finally found ppl I really like playing with haha
bleak spoke
Being on a server with flawless really puts my ability into perspective when I can scroll up 5 or 10 people and there he is with 24s and shit done lmao
rustic ether
lol
bleak spoke
It’s like god that looks like a big climb
cobalt gyro
i'm rank 2 on my server
rustic ether
i finally beat my guildie rogue who was number 1 on server and i took it form him >:D
cobalt gyro
he's the top ally rogue in NA
rustic ether
then again this server is dead as fuck
bleak spoke
Number two is like 2800 D:
Like I’m 2100 and that’s literally 15th god
Sucks to suck haha
rustic ether
next week im going to pump rio
bleak spoke
Yeh but so is everyone else D:
rustic ether
hoping to get to like 2.6 or 2.7
bleak spoke
Yeah I want to hit 2.5 next week maybe
But really trying to get 2.3 this week
Won’t be easy but tomorrow we’ll see
I don’t have to call kicks and ccs for my team anymore and my outputs actually gone up so much
It’s insane
bleak spoke
Like I went from steady 29-33 in outlaw to 36-40
bleak spoke
Yeah the higher keys I play the more I respect ppl like Ashine
To maintain that kind of consistent output while clutching strange situations is so crazy
cobalt gyro
i was just not really fully prepped for the pulls tbh
bleak spoke
There’s this anatomy to pulls which is so intense where when something bad happens it’s like you’re like “this isn’t right” and then when you figure out why it goes so crazy in higher keys
Like I got oneshot by triple throw rock in a ml earlier
cobalt gyro
1 mechanic fucked up = spiral
bleak spoke
Where the only warning was like “hey I stunned early” from the dh
And then 6 seconds later I was on the floor lmao
cobalt gyro
yep
bleak spoke
But if I were better I would have moved and seen they were on me and vanished
Like shit like that seems to be what separates a good player from the best
bleak spoke
Oh man I’ve started to call like all frontals
Cuz if there’s no “broadside aimed at ship” someone’s gonna get fkn blasted lmao
Probably should be tank job for something like that but hey if we don’t wipe I’ll say something lol
cobalt gyro
mmto an extent
tropic ocean
@cobalt gyro you dodge nevertheless if you get killed by maggot spew you're just terrible
cobalt gyro
you say that but it was mid swarmer + reaping
tropic ocean
basically applies to every frontal
pallid smelt
Hello there, fellow sins. What do u think about 2DD+NP+TTK+SS+TC? yay or nay? in single target, mostly. In talents using Subterfuge and Toxic Blade. something to change, or keep it as is?
tropic ocean
for raid?
quartz depot
tropic ocean
in raid highest dps is 3x dd 3x np on most encounters
but if u really dislike the playstyle switching 1x dd with 1x ss is not much of a loss
and gets more value if u have multiple targets
vast forum
Switching a np is much better
tropic ocean
np>dd though
tropic ocean
I know
idk how far u progressed but mekkatorque onwards u want the burst
as much as possible
😃
vast forum
We're talking raiding in general
vast forum
Depends on your tank, and the rest of your grp
tropic ocean
but very depandant on pulls
vast forum
There are no goals when it comes to overall dps
shut pasture
this is okay?
timid cloud
Do you need 3EB? I have 2EB, 1TTK, & 3SS
tropic ocean
yeah
and use crimson tempest as well
3x eb > all
even if its 385 vs 415
+19 wm for example
shut pasture
full dps traits besides 1 huh
tropic ocean
when you don't have bolstering or bursting or some other shit (e.g. next week) it will look more like this :p
where you can just braindead bomb
timid cloud
So you’re using CT to offset the random burst from PB?
tropic ocean
not this week way too different hp and ccing the ones takes too much time
pb has a higher dmg potential but its very rng, i like ct to have on demand aoe for big pulls and reaping
like i had reaping+ pack pulsl where i dropped 250k with pb but also ones where i only did 80k
with ct its always somewhat 120-160kish
also for bolstering pb in my opinion has not much value due to random procs bolstering stuff
lethal heart
pb doesnt do any damage though
pretty much
unless you're on ticks in underrot
and you get 5 of them in row
on like a 10 key
pb is better choice on bolstering imo
because you dont do big enough pulls anyway
and reaping damage is kind of irrelevant
legit every dungeon
you can go into damage done
and see damage done to 'risen soul'
and subtract it from overall damage done
solar rose
Just leave the reaping alive all dungeon 
golden relic
Not a FAN of CT either , just spam FAN lol xPPPP
lethal heart
thing is you choosing pb vs ct wont matter much in reaping anyawy
its mostly about EB traits probably
im not big assa gamer myself
tropic ocean
for me ct does way more dmg overall than pb though
lethal heart
y it will do probably more overall
golden relic
ye but on what
tropic ocean
ct goes around 9-12%ish while pb sticks to 5-7%ish
lethal heart
but its mostly useless damage
ye
thats
terrible way to look at it
you're looking at it wrong
its not just damage from CT
spring yoke
Imagine running 3x eb
tropic ocean
well I saw one of top rogues using it than switched to it and it carried me to 2,2k
really like it
golden relic
doubt it carried u to 2.2, prob just played better , its not like Wits good
spring yoke
U should look how much dmg Eb did to reaping instead of how muhc dmg it did overall
lethal heart
like
i remember season 1 i was considering playing psn bomb vs ct
and psn bomb was 4% of my damage
and ct was ~12-13
round harbor
^
lethal heart
and i still never kind of valued ct high, but thats probably me being biased there
round harbor
Pb is the play or HB
tropic ocean
pb is very very rng though
tropic ocean
20% chance vs on demand ct?
lethal heart
pb isnt as substantial part of your damage as legion
bleak spoke
HB's the big question right now it seems
tropic ocean
i even see some high rio koreans using fok talent and doing decent numbers 😮
bleak spoke
@primal gazelle paging hidden blades evangelist
timid cloud
Probs only use it during fort weeks though, right?
round harbor
Nah
round harbor
HB is good every week every key
tropic ocean
so what to base the to go talent on then? sims?
tropic ocean
like if ppl with 3k score use something (multiple ones) it should be pretty good no?
sonic bridge
no
golden relic
I mean grimz uses CT and he plays x3eb x3SS and hes doing it fine, but I doubt its CT carrying him u kno
lethal heart
like the build you described
round harbor
It means that they are good players who have. Alot of time and know other people with a lot of time and skill
lethal heart
its pretty much
worse version of outlaw
does pretty much same st
and slightly lower aoe
timid cloud
How are you maximizing CT? @tropic ocean are you spamming it every time a dot falls off? Or every combo point? I’m curious. I’ve never been a fan of CT myself because I feel like I run dry on energy a lot.
tropic ocean
well I can just talk for myself and my personal experience
I usually use it on 3mobs + and refresh it when it has 2s something left unless I need to do something more important
like stun or shit
and assa has more advantages like multi silence
15% dmg reduction on multiple targets
lethal heart
ye that's the thing aswell if i had to press crimson tempest on less than idk 7-8 mobs whats the point
as far as i remember even on 6 targets ct vs pb was legit 1% dps difference
at least during infested
idk if anything changed
tropic ocean
its still on demand though
bleak spoke
which is why hidden blades is the question
tropic ocean
its 1 global for aoe dot and aoe instant dmg
round harbor
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't CT get worse and worse as we scale with gear
lethal heart
well but then w ho in the dungeon cares when you pull laborers in motherloed with big guy
bleak spoke
cuz pb can make some yikes happen
lethal heart
who cares about your laborers damage
because thats what you'd do with ct/hb
legit useless damage
round harbor
Woah
tropic ocean
for me it seems like you are very biased on outla
lethal heart
and there is many more instances like that
round harbor
HB ain't useless
tropic ocean
outlaw*
solar rose
CT makes it very easy to keep up EP when you're spamming fan of knives on AoE. When you have enough ruptures out to sustain your energy. In addition to to the dot it has initial damage, which is effective throughout the dungeon. You can't just completely ignore reaping, generally with coordinated groups, you're pulling it with bosses and they should be cleaved down. Which is effective damage.
round harbor
HB has St value
solar rose
Your giving very unique scenarios where it would be pad. But what about the other 90% of the dungeon where it's useful.
lethal heart
idk im biased about CT in general i think
i dislike that talent
think its mostly useless pad damage unless mobs have equal hp
timid cloud
I was just thinking mass damage to make an affix a non-factor & being damage that is worthwhile in a key.
solar rose
It's pad in very unique scenarios. Where 90% of the dungeon it's effective damage. If you like poison bomb sure, but CT isn't a "pad" talent. Unless you make it that way.
tropic ocean
I really like ct also for reaping+boss or pack where it reduces the usually high ramp up time for assa
tropic ocean
just an example
nah it doesnt, you basically just fok>ct> put out ruptures
it reduces the aoe burst ramp up time
solar rose
With the logic of to not take CT vs PB, why go echoing blades at all its pad
tropic ocean
it is
solar rose
It's not, it's effective AoE.
lethal heart
play ethical
tropic ocean
i usually outburst dhs and mages in reaping+x
lethal heart
triple dd/triple np
solar rose
There's a difference.
bleak spoke
there's definitely a fine line between padding and being a liability on reaping
timid cloud
I was curious about that myself because it puts you a rupture below. But it does put a bleed on everyone so you can sustain your energy with the poison -> Bleed -> Energy sustain
tropic ocean
it also has an initial dmg part as well
solar rose
If your spamming CT on laborers in motherlode, that's pad.
sturdy python
No CT does not give energy
timid cloud
With FOK. Unless that isn’t an interaction anymore, correct?
tropic ocean
ct doesnt give u energy by talent
timid cloud
I meant the bleed it does to everyone.
timid cloud
Then you hit the targets with your FOK. I see.
sturdy python
The point is, in places like mother lode, you could hit ct and kill low health mobs faster. Or spend that cp pumping envenom into mechs and@making the whole pull die faster
solar rose
Or you can maintain CT, and then pump envenoms into mechs, why does it have to be black and white?
golden relic
Was the SS to justify the 172k burst that "CT" is giving you
cause ucan do that without CT easily
sturdy python
CTs value is in places like freehold where you have large pulls of@similar health
lethal heart
y freehold is ct dungeon
tropic ocean
I can only speak from my own experience and what I do in big pull/reaping is 3x ss >ct>fok spam and put ruptures
and it works really good
sturdy python
I just said it, maintaining Ct is less CPs to use for prio. This is why it’s seeing less use now than last season
timid cloud
Like a reaping + 1 pack in Freehold near 2nd boss and a PB?
tropic ocean
idk why ppl hate so much on ct when obviously theres multiple high key ppl using it
:/
bleak spoke
some dungeons don't have prio from an hp standpoint tho
sonic bridge
And?
bleak spoke
not that i'm arguing for ct in underrot but mobs are kinda the same hp
sonic bridge
Why are you trying to prove that CT is better because high rio players use it
round harbor
Multiple high key people doing pb aswell. To each their own
solar rose
It definitely has places in almost every dungeon in my personal opinion besides temple and kings rest, the whole " your dumping cps into an aoe bleed and not dumping that into envenoms" is just a bad way to look at it, why can't you do both?
tropic ocean
i never said its better, I said I personally like it
and others here just plain shittalk it
sturdy python
You can’t do both
sonic bridge
Plain shittalk?
solar rose
You can do both.
sturdy python
As effectively
bleak spoke
i mean you can drop the ct dot
solar rose
It's not that black and white man... Lol...
bleak spoke
that's not necessarily bad
solar rose
You can definitely do both
sturdy python
No, if you use ct you’re giving up some of your ability to do X because you’re using cp
lethal heart
@solar rose depending on how big pull is there will be lots of rng with your crit chance there
unless pulls are idk
always bigger than 7 mobs i guess
and you run what nowadays
36% crit?
35% crit
and spyglass?
bleak spoke
i just can't figure out how to run ct without exsang and not be giga starved
solar rose
Your giving up 1 finisher ever 12 seconds when you're gearing full crit and most likely dumping finishers every other global.
You can definitely do both.
bleak spoke
at least at the start of packs
tropic ocean
just use it once at the begin of a pull and then do what you would do with pb anyways (thats at least what im doing and it works quite well for me)
bleak spoke
with pb you get that rupture
timid cloud
I feel starved doing CT. Let alone with Ensang
lethal heart
then your crit value is probably too low
bleak spoke
that 4th bleed is life or death with lower haste it feels
lethal heart
or you're playing your bleeds inapproprietly
in aoe you have infinite resource somewhat
solar rose
Ya you should honestly never feel starved on AoE
timid cloud
I have dice & spyglass now. I usually do 4 ruptures
bleak spoke
3 g ct
lethal heart
3-4 mob aoe
bleak spoke
then where are you
tropic ocean
I usually do 3x garrote out of stealth > ct > 3-4 ruptures and dont have a problem with energy tbh
bleak spoke
with 0 energy and if you fok and don't get enough to do a 3 point plus rupture
lethal heart
y
bleak spoke
then like
timid cloud
I didn’t have spyglass in the past. I guess I should try it out again.
bleak spoke
it sucks ass
lethal heart
because 6 bleeds on targets is sweestspot
where you dont run out of energy
ever
in a big pack
exceptions are reaping packs when you play EB, think your playstyle is to spam fok -> snipe low hp mobs with rupture for energy regain
whilist keeping EP probably
bleak spoke
4 at ~10% haste is 35 energy per global ;o
timid cloud
Do you keep your garrotes up too? I feel like I can’t get above 5 ruptures without dropping them.
lethal heart
idk my assa hasnt been touched for quite some time atm 
tropic ocean
only the buffed ones
and in reaping i usually just fok spam ct rupture the high hp mobs and spam fok
no problems with energy mostly
cobalt gyro
you can't hold up garrotes on more than 3 targets unless it's from stealth
lethal heart
you dont even want to press garrote in aoe really
outside of stealth empowered garrotes
solar rose
I usually just rupture high HP targets on reaping, keep up CT and dump envenoms into the higher HP targets
timid cloud
I see. Then that’s a mistake I’ll fix.
lethal heart
unless
tropic ocean
^ seems like my playstyle isnt too bad @solar rose
lethal heart
there is a really big mob that you wanna vendetta
exsang
idk if people play exsang nowadays even in dungeons
or tb
tropic ocean
I play tb
solar rose
If you're going 3ss 3EB exsang is still the play
tropic ocean
never liked ecsang but idk if its better/worse
timid cloud
Yeah. I did that & threw out garrotes to refresh all the bleeds after SS dropped off.
solar rose
If you're doing that TTK meme its wayyyy better to go toxic blade
tropic ocean
ah ok, nah im doing 3x eb 1xss 3x ttk
spice surge
@lethal heart 6 ruptures isn't the sweetspot. 4 is basicly neutral
tropic ocean
2x ttk*
cobalt gyro
I feel like i do less damage running exsang
timid cloud
I’m rolling for an EB helm next week.
tropic ocean
I saw in logs of some high assa rogue what he used and switched my traits to it and it works really well for me so I kept it that way (maybe its not the absolute best)
bleak spoke
that's my biggest question though, how can you open with ct without exsang and not be starving
solar rose
On aoe with 3ss eb you aren't getting much value out of toxic blade, with exsang at least you're funneling your energy to start setting up your bleeds
tropic ocean
@bleak spoke you dont "start" with ct, u still od the garrotes from stealth then 1x ct
bleak spoke
until you're e positive?
timid cloud
Because ensang is what? 40 energy & Ct is 35?
cobalt gyro
hmm I suppose, i usually use tb for just focussing a target down
tropic ocean
^thats what im doing y @bleak spoke
cobalt gyro
without TTK meme
spice surge
And for st damage
timid cloud
What’s the TTK meme?
solar rose
usually garrote -> garrote -> garrote -> CT -> fan -> rupture -> exsang -> fan -> start applying ruptures
bleak spoke
it's not really a meme
lethal heart
in general tb vs exsang isnt even difference
tropic ocean
3x eb 1xss 2x ttk i think?
cobalt gyro
3x ttk traits
solar rose
when you're comfortable with your energy regen you dump envenoms in prio targets
bleak spoke
oh so you should still play exsang then?
timid cloud
Sorry, I got a lot of questions. Trying to bounce some ideas off to up my game.
spice surge
Yeah tb vs exsang doesn't really matter much
bleak spoke
even with ttks?
spice surge
With ttk you want tb
lethal heart
but ttk and tb make playstyle
sonic bridge
tb is strictly st tho, exsang is different
solar rose
If you're playing with ttk traits it's better to go TB
lethal heart
because you want to be glued into one target
spice surge
Otherwise it's not very relevant
bleak spoke
i guess that's what i'm really asking, if ct can be played with TB at all
spice surge
Exsang isn't aoe either
bleak spoke
cuz they seem to be at odds
lethal heart
and tb/ttk works pretty good with that because you usually wanna play mini sub rogue
tropic ocean
@bleak spoke im playing ct with tb and it works fine
tropic ocean
using 1x ss 2x ttk 3x eb
lethal heart
which is why mostly people played exsang previous season
you didnt wanna be locked into one target
sonic bridge
Yeah but tb forces you to envenom a specific target/ yeah ^
bleak spoke
yeh i played 3 ss exsang ct last season almost exclusively
lethal heart
y also that
cobalt gyro
i've been running PB
lethal heart
SS was go to for everything
bleak spoke
like i remember being really confused in kr/temple sometimes
lethal heart
because there was just no other traits to go for
bleak spoke
like "what do i press lol"
cobalt gyro
and just giga spreading dots
tropic ocean
put out garrote and ct and then just spam envenom tb prio target
(with ruptures for sustain ofc)
timid cloud
So everyone has the same question of whether or not Hidden Blades the FOK talent is also a viable move right now as well, correct me if I’m wrong.
marble hemlock
TB and CT arent really at odds with each other, you can CT and then pop a TB and not have to refresh CT during the entire TB duration
marble hemlock
its more that CT is kind of at odds with TTK
bleak spoke
27k pog
tropic ocean
@marble hemlock ❤ !!!!
marble hemlock
since you spend additional CP on finishers that arent envenom. but if you need the AoE, thats still a worthwhile tradeoff
overgeared rat @lethal heart
marble hemlock
🐀
solar rose
have 425 dagger and not 27k 😦
marble hemlock
425 dagger? 🐀
lethal heart
are you tom
golden relic
Welcome to the 27k club, free drinks in the lounge @lethal heart 
golden relic
u have very similar gear to me
bleak spoke
blightborne
lethal heart
actually might take more
timid cloud
Hmm...
winter gale
Im gonna kms with this spellqueuewindow
Can anyone hlp me pls
I just spoke to agent
bleak spoke
timid cloud
Yeah. Get the king Rasta shoulders on your DH. CY@ later
round harbor
As soon as we kill blockade I should hit 27k st
vestal wren
@bleak spoke what is that clip about?
winter gale
live ticket and shit. Guy is rejecting to speak about spellqueuewindow and he says its due to my intenret 😄
lethal heart
vestal wren
nooo
timid cloud
I’m surprised overwhelming got outsimmed by gut ripper.
bleak spoke
gutripper's pretty good
vestal wren
the wow general was targeted at letuce
marble hemlock
think he meant that assa, or melee specs in general, arent specs that play better/worse with a specific spellqueuewindow
timid cloud
Do we get procs on it from our poisons / bleeds?
winter gale
But it is @marble hemlock
marble hemlock
id disagree tho, if its too low and you have unlimited resources, you might miss out on a few .x secs of abilities if you dont have a decently long queuewindow
unless you spam your buttons
winter gale
I got new internet wich is 100% better than previous
vestal wren
i know outlaw has some use/issues on the spell target window
subtlety had historitcally relevance due to dfa mechanics
marble hemlock
i keep mine at 250 cause it means i can spellqueue without having to smash my keyboard every 0.1sec
vestal wren
probably best to ask loktark about outlaw spell queue window
sonic bridge
what is a spellqueuewindow? 
winter gale
Its waay to much to capture all things
marble hemlock
i accidentally reset my queuewindow after patch, had to restart game and update the cvar like 20 times until it finally got saved between logouts
marble hemlock
i mean, theres no spellqueuewindow that you need for a specific spec, it just comes down to personal prefence
winter gale
my world ms is 47
vestal wren
just use advancedInterfaceOptions (addon)
bleak spoke
does that work for the overlapping vs stacking nameplates 😱
marble hemlock
if you spam buttons even tho theyre on cd, you can get away with ping+100-150
bleak spoke
with the cvar D:
marble hemlock
if you only use buttons once every second and rely on queueing more, you want ping+200-250 instead
winter gale
I am spammer on keyboard
marble hemlock
if you use wrong abilities due to an exceedingly long queue, lower it
golden relic
fuck i didnt even notice mine reset
bleak spoke
setting it over and over again every login still broken zz
golden relic
been laptoping it up lately
marble hemlock
no lettuce
winter gale
As soon as I press current ability I sit on button for hte nex one
marble hemlock
it still resets
every goddamn logout
despite setting the "enforce cvar" option in aio
i still have to manually change the nameplate motionspeed every login
vestal wren
spellqueuewindow allowes you to queue up spells earlier so you can counteract higher latency