Believe hero has SS simmed with subterfuge
#assassination
proven frigate
sturdy python
use herodamage for rogue stuff
glossy kestrel
@olive dagger correct. doing nothing is an important part of playing rogue (and other energy classes with whcih i am less familiar)
glossy shoal
Gotta be able to eat mid pull
primal gazelle
What’s difference between waiting and pooling
rose perch
a lot of what people call "pooling" is in that waiting time
the sim just identifies a few specific niche cases as "pooling" it looks like
looks like waiting for a bit for garrote to tick down when you're at 4 combo points so you can use it and get maximum value
primal gazelle
Is it a big dps loss if you fail to pool, but use TB on cd without delays and sometimes only get 1 envenom off due to refreshing ruptures/garrotes etc?
rose perch
it's not horrific to do that, no - it's a little worse than playing optimally but a lot better than delaying TB to set up getting multiple envenoms in its window
primal gazelle
Gotcha
rose perch
there are some fights where i play like that intentionally - because if i get picked by a mechanic i'm going to have to be away from the boss for 5 globals, for instance, and i'd rather be low on energy when that happens so i don't waste as much
icy ember
yea i just started playing asn again, it feels really good to just chill out 
blissful tide
Just mash your next button as assassin and you’ll do just fine I get orange parses and I don’t pool shit
latent field
What a clown 
high shell
Does anyone have the trinket Invocation of Yu'lon to verify or deny the synergy with toxic blade?
sinful lotus
@rose perch , Thank you for the guides you put up on Youtube. They're really well done and extremely helpful!
rose perch
glad they help!
weak creek
opinions on MA vs subt in bfd?
eternal haven
trait dependent
rose perch
ya people are gonna tell you to sim yourself, either could be better if you have 0 shrouded traits, if you have any subterfuge is def the play
weak creek
so i did sim ma vs subt and gained like 170ish dps? is that worth on pure st? i know ss subt build tends to get more value in aoe.
rose perch
yes if there is more than 1 target you're likely going to want to play as many SS as you have, and subterfuge
eternal haven
170 dps wont matter.
chrome carbon
besides the guide are their any youtube vids to check for sin gameplay/guides?
rose perch
but on pure ST yeah go with whatever sims highest
eternal haven
the 170 dps differential on a sim could equate to crits or not in a fight
play what you perfer
worthy leaf
Is there any situation where I use mutilate on 4cp, or does 4-5 mean that I always use rupture/envenom whenever I hit either of them?
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Azerite Season 2 changes: https://bit.ly/2U86I7o
sage yew
to sim assassination we need to use weekly apl or nightly? cuz every time i simulate shows something different than the previous
nimble tartan
I use nightly
sage yew
i will try in nightly, thx dude
wild ledge
Some variance is normal tho if you’re running multiple sims
sage yew
i know, but it's like differnt gems, enchants, etc.
sometimes it says to put mastery gems in all my gear
wild ledge
Maybe your stat weights are close and something swings it to replace the gems. You could do some stat weight sims to see if they’re close
Or sim with haste gems and mastery gems and see what the difference is
icy ember
yo @rose perch just confused here w/your guide and the asn guide, the asn guide tells me to take poison bomb for multitargets, but watching your guides here suggests crimson tempest 
rose perch
crimson tempest is great for M+, I'd probably run it in all reaping dungeons except Tyrannical KR or ToS
for like 2-3 tgt council raid fights then PB is good yeah
so that might be the disconnect I might have failed to explain?
or if somebody thinks that PB is the play in M+ then ya idk i think they're wrong hehe
icy ember
sorry i wasn't fully watching the video 
rose perch
icy ember
i would be interested in seeing an outlaw video for this section as well if you ever get the desire to do it @rose perch
rose perch
yeah it's a priority for the next few weeks!
steady grotto
Don't you just spam sinister strike if you're a pirate???
rose perch
steady grotto
Is snake eyes not meta any more then?? 😛
vestal wren
no, snake eyes change made it only medio core
icy ember
nah it isnt, and it never was in my book.. it felt like denying the RTB to spam sinister strike, meh
and you didnt even use BtE
vestal wren
tbh snake eyes pre change solved some of the rtb issues
pliant nest
hey does anyone know why bursting blood potions are so expensive now?
quick ice
a new raid just came out so all potions went up in price
quick ice
probably someone just bought up the stock and upped the price?
pliant nest
yea thats possible. just wanted to make sure there wasnt some sort of change that made them more viable
buoyant coyote
Bois do u bleed up raptors on conclave on hc?
steady grotto
Are people switching to tb now they've lost all the haste from reorigination??
haughty flame
hey i need some advice
sims are saying i will do like 400-500dps more if i go MA since the traits favour DD, but rotation is so weird without a SS in it
am i food not to swap over to MA
spice surge
If you care more about those cp from ss than the dps gain then dont 🤷
haughty flame
😄
jade grotto
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
ornate meteor
hey guys is herodamage more trusted or bloodmallet? since the kimbul trinket on herodamage is on top but it is low on bloodmallet, dunno which to trust
heady jay
maybe a stupid question guys, does double dose stack? put a point in my second heroic piece damage didnt seem to change
next wolf
hey guys, just picked up engineering? which are the goggles i want to craft to get the worthwhile ones?
tough lantern
will there be a sim for T23 Exsang on hero dmg? rn its just tb build atm
rose perch
@heady jay yes DD stacks!
@next wolf you want to make the Surging Gearspun Goggles (the ones that require 15 tidal core) to unlock the recipe for the 400 which unlocks the recipe for the 415
manic cairn
so in raid PB and in the mytic+ CT?
vestal wren
!ct
prisma monolithBOT
There is no specific week or affix that makes one or the other more viable.
CT vs PB is mainly down to your group, the dungeon itself and your pull sizes, with PB naturally having an edge in boss fights.
It's mainly the combination of affixes and dungeons that favour one or the other. High Tyr KR/Temple favour PB in general, due to low pulls and harder bosses.
In terms of Exsang vs TB; Exsang wins since it works well with SS traits and it's only 1 global on your priority target for some burst damage and extra energy.
TB usually locks you to that target to gain the most out of it.
rose perch
yes that's a good rule of thumb @manic cairn
manic cairn
so is Esang for ST good?
vestal wren
yes, but with 6 traits TB can come back
manic cairn
i got 2x SS , 2x DD an NP
rose perch
you will probably find ExS to be better for you with that setup, but if you want to be sure you should run a sim. If/as you drop SS traits or change your stats dramatically, you should re-run that sim!
manic cairn
and when to use exsang in big pulls?
rose perch
if you have an important priority target, you can Exsanguinate that target, but otherwise I don't usually bother with it once there are enough enemies that i could just use that global to apply another bleed
manic cairn
^^
next wolf
thanks dratnos, do the surging gearspun goggles come from the imbued ones first?
rose perch
no! those are the old ones from last tier!!
they require engineering 130 and should just be learnable from the trainer
next wolf
okie sweet, cheers chief! .. and thanks for the vids on youtube also, they help a tonne 😄
rose perch
🙂 thanks, good luck!
grim cedar
Is it worth running 1 echoing blades for m+ to go alongside shroud or best to aim for 3x shroud
quick ice
I mean you can hae 3 of each now?
real bay
it does make your aoe much better
quick ice
5th ring, remember
if you're choosing between a 3rd SS and an EB I'd probably go EB though
polar drift
should i gem accordingly to my sim stat weight? or just go haste
quick ice
ideally run top gear gem sim? otherwise stat weight probably
bold trail
if its with reaping affix - id go EB
quick ice
EB is nice for reaping.
bold trail
EB - Crit build - MA insterad of Sub
willow inlet
!azerite
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Azerite Season 2 changes: https://bit.ly/2U86I7o
royal pebble
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > mastery > vers >= haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
real bay
take both SS and EB, 200iq
rose perch
yeah I recommend against master assassin and no SS in M+ - SS and subterfuge add so much to small and medium sized pulls
going hard on crit as a stat i do endorse though with EB
real bay
not to mention your boss damage will suffer a lot
vestal wren
ss is okay on bosses
ss is good and popular bc. it works good on boss and trash
eb is essentially only for non boss
however i dont think its as bad
rose perch
yeah I want EB, I just also want SS and subterfuge!
vivid hearth
hey, so if im running DDx2 and SSx2, (not optimal but best i got yet) is subterfudge the wayu to go then?
rose perch
yes, if you have any SS traits subterfuge is the way to go!
vivid hearth
ok thanks!
grim cedar
Yeah I've only been 120 for a week or so so just farming the gear and ap just wondering if it was worth it to take 1 echos due to the big aoe bump
grim cedar
Thanks guys
alpine crescent
hey guys, on ravenholdt it says that Vanish should be paired up with Vendetta, but after the opener described there I have like 20sec cd between both.
Should I delay the next vendetta to use it with Vanish?
real bay
delay
royal lantern
maybe somone should put that in the guide, that question pops up quite often
vivid hearth
@rose perch do i rum ex as well? currently running tb?
rose perch
You should sim yourself to be sure, but my suspision is that yes, ExS will outperform TB with those traits. Even so, it won't be by much, and TB is a lot easier to use, so you can continue to use it without feeling bad!
vivid hearth
cheers!
vestal wren
EXS and TB are usually quite close now with 6 traits, both work well -> sim is a good tool to evaluate
brisk cloak
Hi quick question so I've been doing some wow analyser after my raids to check how I can improve and it's told me that I've overwrote my snapshot garrotte a bit prematurely and it's advising me to let it fall off before refreshing with a non empowered garrote. Is this accurate or should I be refreshing at the 5.4 second window? 😃
wild ledge
Yeah do not overwrite, you’re correct
brisk cloak
Awesome thanks man
strange python
do you play with poison bomb for the reaping affix ?
brisk cloak
I do play with PB yeah
wild ledge
I’d play ct for reaping unless you’re worried about boss damage on a high tyrannical
Not having Pb proc during that pull will be a real tilt
Also echo blades trait gains a lot of value on reap so id get as many of them as possible too
strange python
for a fight like champion of the light how would you sim to see if SS is better than other traits there
what sort of settings
i'm gonna assume it is just hands down better than the other traits on a boss like that
for padding at least
fringe estuary
what dungeon drops SS/EB gear
strange python
ahhh
fringe estuary
Thanks much andrelora!
indigo shale
anytime
indigo shale
gz
vestal wren
just ^^
vestal wren
seems not to bad
royal lantern
why not wait until next reset and get that 400 gcb?
strange python
because ive been using fathoms till now?
xd
and gotta take advantage of items being capped at +5/6 instead of 10
way easier/faster to spam it
dapper bough
yay i got the trinket from shrine... 2.3% dps increase according to sim :3 I use it on cd right ? (and ofc with vendetta)
fading wigeon
@dapper bough yes
manic cairn
is 20% haste too much? got only 23% mastery and crit
manic cairn
and when do i know that i have to much haste?^^
strange python
stat weights will tell you
if haste drops in priority u know u have enough
i just dump everything into haste
dont care if i have "too much"
haste is too strong in bfa to drop it imo
buoyant coyote
are the raptors worth rapturing hc on conclave?
not sure if they would die to quick or nah
viscid onyx
!traits
royal lantern
maybe not a 4-5cp rupture
i just did go mulitate>rupture, didnt matter how many cp
hidden dirge
Is EB the new way to go in M+, what do you guys think is the 2nd best trait in m+. Last time I played SS and SoB were the strong ones? These 2 traits don't seem to be any good anymore.
median sonnet
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > mastery > vers >= haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
royal lantern
SS is the too go m+ trait, EB is good when stuff is alive for a longer time or you can stack the trait for high FoK dmg
dapper bough
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/
obsidian sierra
Actually you can go 3 eb und 3ss or 2 ss 2 eb 2 sob . It depends because if you have 3ss you always have a chance to not reven get restealth for reaping
I think any combination of those 3 is fine
All others are not good for mplus
buoyant coyote
ah thanks
cosmic haven
Pandemic ?
lost horizon
When you refresh bleeds early you get up to 30% additional duration
For garrote, base duration is 18sec I believe
Max pandemic value for that is 5.4sec (30%)
cosmic haven
True idd 18
Where is that pin ? On what section
Thanks btw
Trying to minmax dps
lost horizon
Meaning that if you garrote, then refresh garrote with 5.4sec or more remaining you'll get a new duration of 23.4
cosmic haven
Atm I open garrote, multi and then rupture
lost horizon
With SS, you garrote and get to 3cp
Then rupture with that
And the 3cp duration lasts long enough that you can get your full TB done
I think it's 12 or maybe 16 second for 3cp? Either way, TB lasts 9sec
So it's long enough even with applying a second garrote+vendetta you won't have to refresh rupture during TB
cosmic haven
Ah that’s why
How much of a dps increase is it as opener ?
always garrot twice i see, also after your vanish
i usually just vanish garrot > muti and then env or rup depending on time left on rup
cosmic haven
yeah i see it. never rly understood it untill now. silly me...
the guide says TB on CD usage. do you guys agree to max dps?
as i usually wait a few sec to get more energy for more envenom
or just throw a TB and just envenom/refresh rup while having TB active?
solid nova
The idea is you plan ahead so that doesnt happen within your pandemic timings
And TB on CD is the most efficient for dps yes
strange python
Shit happends, and you wont always get TB perfect. But just try ti time it ahead, and smash on CD and you'll be fine.
cosmic haven
anyway, gotta go again. food and then raid time. thanks for the advice guys. yet again :))
solid nova
Yeah, ideally youll want 2+ envenoms during TB but if you have to refresh then you have to refresh 🤷🏻
cosmic haven
goodluck tonight !
old knot
Hello, does anyone have a VIGOR engaged weakaura they'd like to share? 😃 -NVM, found one
solid nova
Unless youve got a priority add where its going to be needed, why would you hold?
CD is short enough, youll miss casts over the stretch of a boss fight
dapper moat
true
solid nova
Which is a DPS loss.
dapper moat
yeah i think i hold it bit too much
and hence i ghet less casts of in the fight
pooling too much there
clear blaze
would you play master assassin if it sims like 150 dps higher? i feel like its not very consistent..
lost horizon
On pure ST sure
Give it a try though and see if you're able to perform well with it
latent field
The master assassin opener is so fun, big envenoms
open reef
Master Assasin rotation is like legion with mantle
blissful tide
Like I said last night just smash the next key you don’t have to worry too much about pooling
lost sentinel
I think it does help to pool to get your mutilates in during EP plus stretch out your envenom buff uptime
I only pool to like 100, think the guide says that, or said that at one point... also with double dose you get your mutilates in with envenom up
glacial grotto
How have you guys been dealing with reaping? Is it worth taking crimson tempest?
lost sentinel
I take crimson tempest usually anyway heh
I only ran 1x 10 so far though, doing another sometime today
I wish I had EB pieces already
glacial grotto
always feel starved with tempest and spamming fok seems pretty decent with echoing blade traits
lost sentinel
yeah I dunno about tempest and EB tbh, was thinking the other day it might not be optimal
but with tempest I am not usually energy starved because I garrotte three times, tempest, then start rupturing and refresh tempest, usually the pack is about to die so I am using envenoms at that point
outer ruin
Does anyone know the ppm of Incite the Pack? (Raptor azerite trait) Can't find it in Wowhead, and don't know how to APL dig
lost sentinel
have you tried simming hidden blades @glacial grotto ?
glacial grotto
nope
pliant nest
hey doesnt warcraftlogs show azerite traits anymore in rankings?
lost sentinel
I feel like hidden blades might be absolutely sick with 3x EB on reaping packs
civic palm
@outer ruin this one?
forest marsh
Why not just play outlaw and pull 100k dps on reaping packs
royal lantern
cus then you would play outlaw
lost sentinel
can sin not hit that with EB?
dapper wraith
but but...ilvl is king! https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/s8YLUDBMBJWdXZRjDguGka
Grats on being last, AGI
lost sentinel
agility being low for us honestly doesn't even bother me, I feel like we have more flexibility on secondary stats but maybe I'm wrong
sturdy python
Better for Sin to focus on the caster and big adds, the small ones arent important
civic palm
@outer ruin 30% uptime over 5 minutes
cerulean walrus
Lol called out
rose ruin
outer ruin
@civic palm thank you!
minor bobcat
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > mastery > vers >= haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
civic palm
@outer ruin Looks like it's about 1PPM. 4.5 procs over 5 minutes.
minor bobcat
I’m only at 18k currently
cerulean walrus
What’s your ilvl?
dapper bough
i hate reaping ugh, i feel like a freaking aff warlock with the artefact weapon equipped/mogged
twin kite
!azerith
dapper bough
so annoying
twin kite
!Azerite
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Azerite Season 2 changes: https://bit.ly/2U86I7o
dapper bough
Does NE stealth works as a vanish ? As in does it give me another subterfuge window ?
civic palm
If you can re-enter Stealth with it.
dapper bough
Oh okay mizerok, thanks.
snow ridge
With 0 stacks
pliant nest
is there a reason not to take ruby as assa on opulence?
dapper bough
gosh first boss of ToS is so good as ass, dem damage
civic palm
@pliant nest Yeah someone else on your side picked it up already and having 2 does not add more damage.
dapper bough
shouldn't we take opal ?
pliant nest
dunno my guild wants me to take ruby
civic palm
or Emerald, but usually Opal as you cannot maintain high stacks of Emerald reliably.
sturdy python
Only one person on each side needs ruby
dapper bough
I need to try this boss as sub with opal... dem evi
minor bobcat
@cerulean walrus 385
minor bobcat
I’m also not going ST traits, 3x SS atm
minor bobcat
Also 370 weapons
cerulean walrus
Yikes
minor bobcat
No luck in keys or raids for weapons unfortunately
celest mica
Is there something I’m missing when it comes to master assassin vs subterfuge ? Seems like master assassin is simming higher but everyone on logs is running subterfuge
At least for me MA is simming higher but when I did the break down subterfuge is definitely better .
zealous lily
it depends on your traits
cerulean walrus
Because if they use SS they use Subt
zealous lily
I ran MA for a lot of Uldir
but now that I have an SS trait on one of my better azerites I use subterfuge
not because it is necessarily better
it's just the gear i have
if you have a single SS trait and don't have the alternatives of like 3x double dose 1x nothin' personal kid and 2x that dazar alor treachery trait you will use subterfuge
celest mica
I have the options with my gear to run 2 SS /2 DD but the three double dose is still simming better with MA than anything with subterfuge
zealous lily
if you have like double dose twist the knife etc. and no SS you will prob use MA
in general MA and subterfuge simmed without .1 or .2% even without SS
MA is a little cleaner to use with cooldown lineups though so in practical terms if you have the traits for it it will be better
SS is a dead trait outside of opener and vanish window
whereas other traits that are on throughout the rotation will be more evenly and reliably beneficial
celest mica
It’s just so strange to me that so many people on logs is running it then
zealous lily
i mean... i am
celest mica
When they have the azerite pieces to run DD
celest mica
So you think once everyone has a full set it will go back to DD MASTER
zealous lily
yes
that is what I will do and I am a high mythic parser
so that is what I am telling you other people will also do
there may be some fights in which SS pulls ahead for various reasons but i dont think so
maybe jadefire
dapper bough
I have 3 DD and subterfuge still sims higher even tho i have only one SS
celest mica
I’d assume for cleave fights maybe
zealous lily
yeah if you have one SS and don't have many other double trait alternatives you will run subterfuge
celest mica
Interesting
zealous lily
jadefire is all 2 target
monkey dude SS lines up really nicely with the add spawns
your vanish will be up with an add spawn and your opener will coincide with it too
dapper bough
i hate jadefire, they keep jumping everywhere :<
celest mica
Then I should definitely listen to what my sims say cause my rogue buddy swears subterfuge is the way to go due to everyone using it in logs
But I couldn’t grab the grasp why lol
modest badge
does cloak negate all damage from bwonsamdis inevitable end?
celest mica
@zealous lily ty for the info and clearing some of my confusion
NO
It does not you will die
modest badge
damn
haughty flame
@rose ruin r u using MA and no SS with ur rotation?
zealous lily
it does negate the stacking debuff @modest badge but not the one shot
modest badge
so itll clear my stacks?
civic hinge
Assa wound poison or DP +shiv in pvp? 🤔
regal tundra
Alliance?
steep ridge
y
regal tundra
There is an issue on logs of Alliance Grong, ENCOUNTER_START is firing after the actual start of the fight
echo night
The cache from timewalking, can it drop azerite armor?
spice surge
Yes
echo night
100% sure?
proven frigate
100% I got a azerite
Not 100% rate. But 100% sure it can be included in the cache. It’s any loot from the normal BoD loot table
light rampart
in raid right now, but my wa is lost. anyone got a toxic blade on target WA?
lone junco
like a debuff active on target?
lone junco
and no. i use a self bar uptime
light rampart
anyone else?
lone junco
I just use a duration timer. doesnt show up on target name plate. just dont change targets after you hit TB until it drops?
real bay
yeah Grong is def bugged for Ally, over 2k less dps than on Details
steady grotto
Can you cloak coin shower on opulence?
tough lantern
is it worth dotting other bosses in conclave fight?
fluid mist
what ruby do we take on opu?
buoyant coyote
damn keeping bleeds up on conclave is hard as fck
chilly obsidian
I've seen opal in logs for top padding
buoyant coyote
specialy when u wanna do some noooice env as well
spice surge
If you have to run too far then its not worth dotting both of them
tough lantern
looking at logs it shows that any dmg done to boss that heals to full isn't counted
so wondering if even with SoB Trait if its worth doing
buoyant coyote
I mostly only rapture it for energy reg
@spice surge maybe i should only focus it during vanish windows for the 80%
novel rapids
is worth having more than 2 Shrouded Suffocation traits?
red cloak
quick question... is shrouded suffocation nerfed to the point of uselessness
novel rapids
do u think so?
lone junco
@steady grotto you can cloak the debuff.
@chilly obsidian boss damage is actual damage. Why would you call that padding?
@novel rapids depends on other options you have. and the fight style. sim your gear.
@red cloak no. was it nerfed beyond the ones in October? cause it was fine last night.
red cloak
my azerite traits addon says its a value of 1.88 and nothing personal is like 8.76
lone junco
then you have trait values for MA/TB
Subterfuge Exang or Subterfuge TB still uses SS
tables and trait addons are guides. Use raidbots top gear. and select Subterfuge/MA AND TB/ EXang . then select a series of traits.
then decide if you are ok with losing 0.2% dps to play a secondary set.
zealous lily
there are also some odd factors in raid that can come up with SS like if they hero when 2min go up but vanish + vendetta will only line up for you @ 2:23 or so
lone junco
meant to get bystack.
for me. I will aim for 2dd 2ss and tc/np.
then run Subterfuge TB.
prob.
but I cant just pick my gear.
M+ 3ss then 2eb, + something.
strange python
i feel like ttk is underrated
dapper moat
opulence gems as assa? RL said ruby would be better than opal for sin, is that really correct?
civic palm
No.
civic palm
But just listen to your RL :3
strange python
im using 3x ttk now
lone junco
I liked opal.
strange python
its insane
spice surge
@buoyant coyote Why would you do it more during vanish?
You know one of them heals to full when the other dies right?
strange python
eb?
spice surge
So cleaving is entirely pointless unless it increases your dps on ST
buoyant coyote
more for fast CP when they are close and to put more raptures
lone junco
@gusty kestrel 🍆
south sierra
which is better bursting blood or battle potion agility?
royal lantern
right now agility for most people
south sierra
ty
rare sleet
apparently i am loosing the ability to play assasin lol
dark crag
That are the poisons, don't sniff them too much
buoyant coyote
Where is no reason to apply garrote on the healing adds in conclave right?
outside padding
civic palm
More regen if the tanks keep them close enough to make sure DP is on the other target.
Probably not worth it though.
dapper moat
!wa
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination WA's for BFA:
https://wago.io/HJUbINlV7 (Mizerok's Group)
https://wago.io/E1EB91OtM (Lokkek's Group)
https://wago.io/SyLUNGD4X (Sovv's Group)
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)
nimble tartan
any 21k boys in the chat https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/au4gR5EVpLDf1nkNZce9Ju
civic palm
Yeah lemme SIM with muh ROA stacks reeeeeal faaaast.
spice surge
@nimble tartan http://piclair.com/data/wdqlt.jpg
spice surge
Shoulders apparently dont want to be mogged on raidbots thumbnail
nimble tartan
ditb is HOT
civic palm
Hot Garbage yes
nimble tartan
its ok im doin all the mechanics for my group on blockades
i feel like a god carrying the orb clearing
civic palm
mmm > _>
whole ginkgo
@buoyant coyote can't even pad there, no damage on conclave boss that heals is registered on logs, tank logs are horrible
civic palm
O _O 💦
nimble tartan
it did 180k on blockades not too far off we love it hunny
dapper moat
btw is there a difference what to use on main hand weapon deadly navigation or quick navigation?
stable pine
nimble tartan
dont let them lie to u..i wont.
spice surge
No hiisi
nimble tartan
ditb hot!
spice surge
There is no difference
nimble tartan
dam!
civic palm
👌
rough agate
With MA and 2x DD am I vanishing and then TB into muts or still vanish env
rough agate
right ok
nimble tartan
sometimes i tb vanish env sometimes i do the regular vanish tb
modest badge
is ma what people doing now?
nimble tartan
either
spice sorrel
can you shroud out past the trash in front of volkaal? I can't remember if there are mobs that have true sight
rough agate
you can when there are no shieldbearers
and i think they are only there on teeming weeks
i forget
spice sorrel
yeah i remember there being something different on teeming weeks
i saw that skip around the lefthand side to get into the boss so i was trying to remember if we could get out again without death skipping
echo night
is the general stat prio still crit mastery for M+ when going crimson tempest or has it changed?
rose perch
@echo night yeah crit is definitely the dream especially if you have EB - mastery is great for overall dmg but a little haste will help your ST and priority damage too
left abyss
is a 415 verison of the Variable trinket from high tinkerer better than Fathoms?
local install of simcraft says no
raidbots says yes
cerulean walrus
Bloodmallet doesn’t even track fathoms anymore, right?
left abyss
nah
plain thistle
is your simc updated?
left abyss
yes, it wouldnt let you sim new gear if it wasnt
plain thistle
🤔
solid nova
Well Raidbots is Simc. Out of those 2 options only 1 requires a manual update, so most likely something with your local install
potent monolith
what traits we have to use now? 1 SS and others or 3 SS?
spice sorrel
for what? raid? m+?
unkempt tangle
Did blizzard mention upgrade for darkmoon trinkets like in legion?
spice surge
nope
deep glacier
subterfuge makes garrote's dot deal more dmg or the hit?
strange python
entire garrote
deep glacier
thanks !
spice sorrel
@potent monolith raid stuff is in the pins, m+ traits are probably 3 EB/3 SS or change out for some SoB for higher keys
strange python
what is eb
spice sorrel
echoing blades
thorny kettle
@strange python wat he trinket off opulence is pretty nuts imo
strange python
opulence doesnt drop any trinkets
spice sorrel
uhhhh
strange python
yea i dont care about other classes trinkets
spice sorrel
mekka drops a crit trinket
strange python
for rogue there are nogreat trinkets
spice sorrel
well...mekka drops a trinket that has varying crit
thorny kettle
My mistake. The opulence trinket is INT
icy ember
ye its terrible when equal ilvl to current trinkets like deadeye/harlans @spice sorrel
icy ember
well not terrible, it just doesn't sim as well as the others do
strange python
sim is everything tho 👀
civic palm
pardon?
strange python
icy ember
well for outlaw it is horrible, i should of spoken that way
civic palm
I've no interest in Bloodmallets reporting for Rogues
thorny kettle
Why not?
strange python
okay 👍
spice sorrel
we in #assassination boi
thorny kettle
Cause no1 plays the other specs
strange python
wait mizerok
round harbor
ez 400 trinket and daggers
strange python
where did u get that from
round harbor
thats herodameg
spice sorrel
i mean i probably will, at least for harlans
strange python
^
civic palm
That matches what I see now 👌
strange python
^
round harbor
i mean
civic palm
Now I am curious why it reported like that
strange python
i guess blizzard learned their lesson after legion
round harbor
400 harlans still better than 415 kimballs lol
strange python
no more dos and more more cof
civic palm
Yeah the proc on Kimbal's ain't great.
spice surge
Rather, no more cof during the first tier where people will continue to use it throughout the expansion
round harbor
i like how the herodamage m+ sims uses master assasin
strange python
i highly doubt they will ever release anything close to cof/dos
spice sorrel
just use kimbul's to ignore mechanics when your DK pulls huge and grips ez
civic palm
Defaults as MA, displays SIM results for talent options.
strange python
raw power for dos, reducing main cooldown's cd for cof
spice surge
Because there's been an enormous amounts of trinkets prior to legion with substantially higher power level than cof and dos
strange python
also i hate the fact that the best trinket for my spec is from world quest
that requires titanforge proc
civic palm
and Legion was a disaster when it came to trinkets, so Blizz stopped making crap like that > _>
strange python
that's what i think too
dapper moat
do ppl with ST build like heavy DD still go on opulence with opal gem then FoK adds and nuke boss?
merry orbit
Why double dose trait is so Bis now? Blizzard buffed it?
strange python
a while ago
strange python
hmm, i think they tuned it up a little
strange python
do you guys think covenant will get nerfed?
seems too strong on rogue imo
3x covenant is 1200 agi
spice sorrel
do you think it's the go-to over SS? Seems like a lot of fights are cleave or occasional adds
spice surge
Which fights have adds where you can get a good vanish of and get off 3 garrotes?
Absolutely not mandatory
strange python
well, feels like crap to play without it
spice surge
Rastakhan p1 and jadefire
strange python
and there are always some adds u can even double garrote
which is already big value
spice surge
Blockade p2
royal lantern
ss makes your opener more smooth, but call it mandatory is......not true
spice surge
Idk i hate playing tb with ss
strange python
feels liek i can make full use of it on every boss
civic palm
MA opener needs ~1 Mut Crit to feel perfect.
royal lantern
im one of those guys that makes 1 crit with MA, make it 100%allready blizz ffs
spice surge
Yeah if you get 0 crits on mut then its bad yeah
civic palm
Because 100% is fucking broken?
strange python
hmm
civic palm
Gonna end up with us sitting in Stealth for extended periods of time for CT DoTs to tick.
Garbage
strange python
yeah
royal lantern
we had 100% for longer in legion and you didnt dot up and wait with it
strange python
but in legion we had much more energy regen sources
which lead up to us taking nightstalker
for vanish envenoms
civic palm
SIN had all sorts of niche edge cases that no one played around.
royal lantern
unless there was a weird strat where you wait for a PB proc and then go vanish or something like that lol
civic palm
This lasted for as long as the Vanish~>Envenom bug lasted though.
strange python
so half expansion
civic palm
prettymuch
Probably longer than that considering how strict the timing was.
If you were not using a Macro odds are you never saw it.
civic palm
No thanks.
strange python
but the damage
civic palm
Shit was like Titanforging for your meters.
strange python
it was
but now it feels like we play without t100 talent on ST
pb barely does any damage
spice surge
Just get double doses and rely on them proccing
strange python
COMBAT 👀
fading harness
Yea we’re a ranged class that throws daggers lul
cerulean walrus
We are fans of knives
strange python
id be down to be rdps rogue that throws bottles of poisons
different types of poisons
or some shit
strange python
just give me cloak and vanish
fading harness
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > mastery > vers >= haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
fading harness
Hmm
My current stat weights got single target is haste = mastery > crit > vers
Which I’m okay with. I like sin’s mastery anyways
But I wonder why my crit isnt higher
strange python
probably because u already have a lot of it
rose perch
you probably have a lot of crit or not a lot of mastery
the stats multiply with each other and all start at a fairly close level, so a couple hundred of one stat is going to dramatically reduce its relative value and increase all the others'
strange python
im sitting at 1412 haste
wonder what stat weights will have to say
as expected
kinda weird that agi sits at the bottom
median hedge
its the same for me
civic palm
Was never not.
strange python
im using tb for raids
dapper moat
was in opulence and had a 3xss rogue with TB and he did quite good even on p1 ST fight
strange python
im 2x ss with tb
dapper moat
i know mizerok but did not realyse that its even almost as strong ion ST as DD
strange python
in p1 can easily maintain around 17k
dapper moat
with 3xss waz`
civic palm
Well it requires Subterfuge, so there's a small catch.
dapper moat
?
strange python
2x ss
spice surge
Yeah, SS does give a good damage increase if you're using subt and exsang, but overall the profile with tb+dd is going to sim higher than ss+exsang
Because the baseline is higher with tb+ma, so even though the increase is similar
dapper moat
was thinkinng about 3xss and tb
civic palm
Maybe not if you're NE but I am not 100% on that.
spice surge
The results isnt
obsidian ruin
just me or can there only be one instance of the kimbul trinket dot at the same time ?
civic palm
strange python
xD
civic palm
This is T22 but I don't think there are any differences for T23.
potent monolith
2 DD is worth?
strange python
anything that sims higher for you is worth
potent monolith
the dmg stak then?
spice surge
Oh yeah, troll was best by far before they implemented shadowmeld, mb
and before the berserking nerf
civic palm
Yeah.
strange python
are there any official zandalari troll racials?
spice surge
Nope
spice surge
Or well yes, the racials are known but the numbers and tuning of them isnt
signal crag
what traits do you guys use for m+ now
signal crag
ty
strange python
might consider DD for tyra weeks
strange python
all depends on your comp
if you have like dh and boomie on tyra weeks
u might aswell go full st
signal crag
yeah ill see whats good next week when i start doing keys
spice surge
Tbh the best for m+ is probably just to specc outlaw, unless your group really needs the slow
rare sleet
i run with an arms warrior and either a dh or shadow priest in mythic +
strange python
arms is a walking meme
untill the 8% buff goes live atleast
@spice surge my guildie had 34k overall on freehold 11 as outlaw
but i just cant play outlaw
or rather dont want to
dislike the spec since legion
royal lantern
arms always starts strong in the 1st tier until you have some stats and fury goes OP as hell and blizz needs too nerf it lol
strange python
argus arms says hello
blissful tide
Sounds like bm hunter
royal lantern
people played arms on argus....?
royal lantern
bm hunter is good because its a ranged spec that can use all stuff while movment
that alone makes BM viable
strange python
bm hunter is another meme right now
blissful tide
Saying the good early but later on falls off through expac
royal lantern
bm hunter was low in t21 too, didnt changed the fact that bm was the too-go hunter spec
strange python
bm is really bad right now
lethal heart
survival is strong right now
blissful tide
The hunter discord channel for bm is benched mastery or something
royal lantern
survival was never that bad, but nobody plays hunter to goo melee lol
strange python
yeah people play hunter to bind their rotation on scroll and chill
lethal heart
and does absurd damage
royal lantern
like, say your raidleader ´´im a survival hunter´´ they will ask you too go ranged cus most guilds have more melee anyway
lethal heart
we have survival
spice surge
Tbf survival rotation isnt overly complex either, since their bis traits basicly removes 2 of their spells from the rotation
royal lantern
BfA survival is not hard
lethal heart
idk if thats hard orn ot
strange python
no spec in bfa is hard
royal lantern
legion survival was not hard too, it was simply a shitton of random spells and passives put into a spec and see how it worked
blissful tide
Can confirm had #1 simmed on WoW progress hunter would beat the other rogues not familiar with sub in Zul
spice surge
People say that no specs are hard, yet theres a lot of people making misstakes in terms of their rotation
spice surge
They're not grandmaster starcraft hard, but most of them arent super easy
blissful tide
Had bear tank to apply bleeds
dark crag
Opulence?
delicate crater
same guild has 9 of the top 10 parses in the world with a 2 min kill.
Might just be a log error
strange python
or an exploit
also
how do you guys rate BoD so far?
imo feels much harder than norm/hc uldir was
few bosses
civic palm
Without seeing bullshit/broken Mythic mechanics, very good.
strange python
i feel like it will be antorus v2
where last boss is easier than the boss before it
blockade is gonna be aids on mythic
feel like opulence will have some "special" mechanics too
rasta too
slow mortar
The turtles have graced(?) me with a 385 version of
https://www.wowhead.com/item=165662/kezan-stamped-bijou&bonus=0:1537
seems ok cept i have a 385 GCB
strange python
kezan sims 0.6% lower than my gcb
but considering theres a lot of running in BoD
kezan might be better for some fights
did they fix the shrouded suffocation garrote bug?
royal lantern
wich bug?
strange python
garrote three times your 4th one cancles your first 3 empowers
royal lantern
that was fixed ages ago lol
onyx rock
Yes long time ago
grizzled orbit
Ruby or Opal for Opulence?
civic palm
1 Ruby, 204 Opal
spice sorrel
ruby 
round harbor
ruby is good too
we were mememign and had everyone pick it up
boss got to 100 stacks of the ruby debuf lol
104 stacks actually
royal lantern
but you can reach 100 stacks without having everyone pick ruby up...?
round harbor
can u ? idk we were memeing
they thought itd stack faster if more people had iot
fight is a joke eaither way lol
royal lantern
idk, think its actually really fun
round harbor
look at a few logs looks like it might have a icd
short token
quick question guys, which ruptures/garrotes do i let fall off? ones buffed by vendetta? toxic blade? vanish/master assassin?
spice surge
Your bleeds only get the damage bonus from vendetta while vendetta is active
And the bonus is applied regardless of wether or not you applied the bleed during vendetta
The only exceptions being the damage bonus from subterfuge (and nighstalker) which is applied for the entire duration of that garrote (or rupture)
short token
ok, thank you right now i'm not rocking subterfuge i know to let those garrotes expire
i have no shrouded atm
so what about garrotes/ruptures from toxic blade?
cerulean walrus
TB only buffs nature damage
spice surge
But even if it did buff them, it would only be for the duration
short token
so then i don't let garrotes/ruptures that i started during toxic blade expire before overlapping?
spice surge
the damage of your bleeds (except with subterfuge/nightstalker) is dependant on the exact stats and debuffs you and your target have the exact moment it deals damage
Not when it is applied
short token
ok so once those fall off, the buffs on your bleeds falls off
spice surge
or if you get those buffs, the buffs will be applied to your bleeds
short token
OK, so ideally you want to use rupture/garrote right at the start of getting either vendetta or toxic blade
so that they're up for close to/the entire duration of the buff
spice surge
Yes
But as feraran said, tb does not buff the damage of rupture or garrote
As they are not nature damage
But you can refresh during vendetta and it wont make it do less damage
short token
ok
spice surge
Basicly what im saying is: You're overthinking it
short token
ok, it's not that serious lol
cerulean junco
Opinion on invocation of yulon trink?
quick ice
I like the animation.
desert vault
can you clear like 4-5 traps all at once on jadefire or do they do some kind of aoe damage to raid? i know cloak blocks it all it seems
spice surge
They do no damage to the raid, only yourself (if you dont have cloak up)
mossy adder
should i be holding vanish for vendetta or using vanish on CD?
prisma cypress
aren't they both a 2 minute cooldown?
short token
phew just got the helm off heroic blockades...does nothing personal change anything in the rotation?
mossy adder
Nope
short token
ty buckie
wild stone
Icy veins says to use both on CD, and not wait
placid dawn
you only hold vanish for vendetta when you play exsang
i mean, hold vendetta for vanish
wild stone
Icy veins also says It is best to use your  Vanish during  Vendetta to maximize your  Nightstalker bonus
lone junco
is the IV guide written by aethys? or was that the wowhead guide
languid dawn
whats the spec for M+ right now?
storm canopy
Does raidbots not sim sim the cloak/ring 2 piece for 150 agil
its simming lower than everything i have
junior aurora
when you are the designated ruby 🤢
lusty compass
I had a weird bug today fighting H Mekkatorque. Whenever I would cast Vanish, my entire raid group would experience a lag spike for about 2 seconds as if they were getting DDOS'd or being disconnected. This was reproducable even out of combat, and everyone agreed that me casting Vanish was the cause of the lag spike. I'm Alliance, and suspect it's related to the Horde buff you get for appearing as horde as that's the only thing that changed since fighting rastakhan. Anyone else experience this?
My vanish is not in any macro, and not connected to a weak aura
royal lantern
I have the same thing since 2days lol
Only in the raid,when i use vanish i geta 1-2sec delay
And now that you say it,happend too me on stormwall/jaina with the horde buff too,maybe its linked too that
low junco
happend to me several times aswell weirdly enough
lusty compass
longshot but are either of you pandaren @low junco @royal lantern
low junco
actually i am a bloodelf
lusty compass
did it happen to you during the 3 alliance bosses then?
tulip kindle
Do we still want 1x Shrouded Suffocation to help with our combo point generation and dot dmg on our opener and vanish? i'll have to go down a double dose which i think is one of our top choices
low junco
not rly
opal meadow
what are you guys simming at with double rings?
plain radish
what gem for opulence?
solid nova
Opal
plain radish
❤
opal meadow
(ruby if your group doesn't have someone taking it) (idk my guild had me taking it earlier but that's probably bad)
modest badge
my fps gets fuled on mekkatorque especially on larger groups and my pc not a toaster
smoky fiber
gonna try playing sin this upcoming week, i sim highest with 3 DD/2x NP/1x TC and MA, but I've seen some talk in here about how subterfuge is generally better - Is it worth the 300 dps loss on the sim to take 1x SS? Not sure what the move is here
wild mural
@smoky fiber personally I would only run multiple SS on like Champion, Jadefire, Rastakhan. If I could run 0 SS and MA for the rest of the raid I would. But I think do whatever sims best.
real bay
SS on champion is pure pad imo except maybe on mythic
flint jetty
Lol For a second All my best simming pieces were 3x SS 3x Twist the knife. I got the mekka chest from the TW quest so now I have 2x SS 2x TtK 1 Nothing Person and 1 TC
strange python
Is there any guide on how to look at Rogue logs. I am struggling hard with dps and it bothers me. I know some of the things I am doing wrong but I feel I do worse than I should do... :s
solid nova
Wowhead have a good how to read log guide
flint jetty
I know that there's a section on going over logs in the Wowhead guide
solid nova
Yeah its decent, long read but covers everything
Once you know where things are you'll notice the mistakes
And can always through them in here to clarify anything
flint jetty
Anyone else having Sub sim quite abit ahead of sin?
solid nova
Not unusual for patchwork sim
flint jetty
But once movement comes into play is when it really changes ye?
solid nova
Mechanics, downtime etc
Can only take so much from a patchwork sim before applying it to specific fights
flint jetty
Yeah, I'm just debating if I should play sub or not currently.
lean coral
raid def more sin friendly imo
flint jetty
Except double SS is so nice on grong
strange python
Okey I will look into it. I always feel energy starved. But I don't think it is a lack of haste but that I spam my buttons too much instead of pooling the energy. Do logs take into account for example if I still only have 385 daggers? Is not 400 dagger naturally going to aim higher? Meaning I might just be bad, not THAT bad? :s (please give me hope...)
solid nova
I mean regardless of if the log is good or bad
Rotational errors and stuff should be easy to highlight
Can just post logs if you want a breakdown, its up to you
flint jetty
Stuff like going into TB windows with low energy or low time on dots, overwriting Subt buffed Garrotes , letting dots drop
solid nova
Vanish windows etc
odd hatch
Does toxic blade not work on rastakhan totems? I've noticed it never shows up on the target, but I don't know whether or not it is actually working
Also, with ss, let's say that grong's bot is spawning in 15 or 20 seconds. Is it worth saving vanish for that to double garrote or should I continue to use it on grong
round harbor
aslong as you get he same amount of cooldowns in the fight it doesnt matter
if you holding it for 20 seconds will mean you dont get another set of cds then no
odd hatch
For sure. Any idea about the tb on totems?
strange python
I do want to try to understand it myself first @solid nova. I have to learn to be able to improve! But once I have had a look I will post for sure. Btw. I SIM higher with Exsang and 3xSS. But only like 100 dps. Should I go TB instead since that is easier to line up within a raid when movement might be bad for timing a good Exsang?
solid nova
I imagine it would equate to more DPS once a 2nd target is involved, which is a few fights thats for sure. Applying ST/Patchwork sims to raids should be taken with a pinch of salt putting the fight into consideration.
And yeah for sure dude, makes sense to me. The wowhead guide to log reading is a really good start
Once you get a handle on where to look for things, you'll be surprised its pretty easy
@strange python https://www.wowhead.com/how-to-use-warcraft-logs-to-improve-character-performance
As said its a long read but covers so much.
strange python
Thank you! So since it is such a small difference TB MA would be preferred. Or did I misunderstand you now?
solid nova
If you have a flick through warcraftlogs you'll see subt/tb is pretty dominant atm
Combining the resources available (sims - wcl - your own logs etc) will always give you a decent overview of whats up
strange python
I will have a look at it once I read the guide! One more question tho(sorry). Playing TB how would you in the best way line up the CD of my GCB? Or should I swap to another trinket?
solid nova
I have a pin for that 😄
Let me copy/paste
How do I use Galecallers Boon?
-With Toxic Blade: On cooldown
-With Exsanguinate: Do NOT hold exsang for every galecaller. Use them seperately on cooldown with the exception of the third galecaller use, which you want to delay to line up with vendetta+vanish+exsang at around 2:25
strange python
Oh. My bad... Thanks!
solid nova
No problem at all mate
twin kite
Hi, when we have multiple "Nothing Personal" what get stack? the dmg only?
edgy plover
@twin kite yes, only the dot damage stacks
hallow walrus
Sorry to ask again, but maybe someone has the answer:
How do we reach the Exodar nowadays, for the class mount quest?
(as Horde)
twin kite
Okay, thanks
solid nova
@hallow walrus Talk to Zidormi on Darkshore, Apparently if you talk to him he takes you back in time or something and you can fly etc as you could before
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=141489/zidormi#comments Yeah, he should be the dude you need to talk to
valid cipher
@solid nova Do you know if the 2 bosses raidbots section is bronken. Wanted to sim something like Jadefire and raidbots is saying me to go 3 EB, that i find quite surprising
solid nova
Ive never used that myself but EB has value on 2 targets so 
valid cipher
Seems not really worth to FoK 2 targets when you can just mut onze of them. Especially if the FoK doesn't crit
valid cipher
Ok wanna test it on reset then. Thanks for your answers
fickle viper
@solid nova doesnt that depend heavily on your crit
https://i.imgur.com/AvKLiFI.png
for cp generation to be equal at 2 targets you'd need 66% crit (adjusting muti energy cost to fok energy cost)
and at 2 targets to get real value out of EB you'd need it to crit in the first place, no?
^above math is really just focused on CP generation, but you can 'guesstimate' how DD/EB would pull it to one side or another
But that bit of guesstimation to me makes it seem like you'd need more than just 1 EB to start pulling FOK > Muti in 2 targets (assuming ur limited by energy), since you wont get 66% crit and the difference in value would have to come from a fair dmg increase
cobalt gyro
p sure with EB it does pretty much the same damage as a mutilate
fickle viper
So then even if they do the same dmg, Muti gives consistent 2+ CP whereas FoK only guarantees 1 CP
And # of gcds spent generating is also a factor, esp. when you consider EP windows id say
valid cipher
Do you take into account the bonus CP from crit muti on the right table?
fallow estuary
We finished hc last night - blockade is soooooo nice to play
1x rogue can solo soak every single melee orb
had 4 in a row once
feint --> cloak --> cheat death --> feint
unkempt tangle
Is there a log review section somewhere? I couldn't find it
vestal wren
outlaw is rly good for the new affix
sin with EB is also rly good but outlaw shines on lower keys too giving it more time in the spotlight
sub is more or less outside of very specific situations useless (compared to the other 2)
rose perch
@unkempt tangle post 'em here and i'll take a look!