Interesting
#assassination
hollow cloud
drifting elbow
verbal nimbus
link your CE
candid mica
this guy lol
hollow cloud
Can't im meele 4head, im benched untill tonight 
ill link u in 6hours
verbal nimbus
is this your first time in mythic?
hollow cloud
wheat zealot
drifting elbow
clearly its not his first time
hollow cloud
this guy is interesting
ionic charm
How the fuck is some 2/8 37th percentile shitter going to shit talk someone going to mythic g’huun
strange python
Welp this just got personal
hollow cloud
Unluko
verbal nimbus
I mean, if I want to transfer back to sargeras and raid with my old raid team then I'd have CE in a week
ionic charm
Do it then bud
verbal nimbus
its not that difficult when you try
hollow cloud
drifting elbow
go for it man
hollow cloud
no ur right, methods 100+ wipes on ghuun wasnt difficult, they just didnt try enough
drifting elbow
CE value is totally different when ppl arent asking for it as minimum without pug mythics
hollow cloud
shouldve tried harder
drifting elbow
hollow cloud
darnit
verbal nimbus
I was stating, dont get hung up on AOTC because its useless, use your time to get better and achieve CE
drifting elbow
.............
wheat zealot
Lmao, cant get aotc?? Just get CE 4head
drifting elbow
lets get CE to get into mythic guilds to progress in 😛
hasty coral
is there a way on WCL, to see how many cp u have when u cast envenom?
verbal nimbus
pretty much, stepping stones is the way of life
verbal nimbus
only good guilds, true
drifting elbow
there is way more good guilds than elitists
lethal heart
@hollow cloud 👋
candid mica
this guy is a troll
drifting elbow
only thing u really needed, was experience in mythic modes
candid mica
there's no way
drifting elbow
CE is fucking irrelevant achievement
ionic charm
@hasty coral don’t think there is, but not 100% on that
verbal nimbus
anyone who is trying to be good is shooting for CE
hollow cloud
7/8M, doesnt matter. no CE yet so its unlucky tbh
verbal nimbus
truth
drifting elbow
lol
hollow cloud
unluko
wheat zealot
Just remove every achiev from the game that isent CE 
hollow cloud
:4head:
verbal nimbus
for raiding, agreed
ionic charm
I’m shooting to be the richest person in the world, is it useless if I break the top 100? Apparently
hollow cloud
same @lethal heart
drifting elbow
7/8 gets u to nearly any guild that has 8/8m 
verbal nimbus
Yea, if thats your goal and you didnt achieve it
ionic charm
Lmao
hollow cloud
its unlucky guys
just get CE
4head
to join top200 guilds on US servers
its a must-have
hollow cloud
no u need to kill mother aswell
drifting elbow
i think so
verbal nimbus
Again, your mob mentality is taking your head out of the conversation. I said previous CE's are more valuable than previous AOTC's
strange python
or do u need to clear whole raid
hollow cloud
since its objectively wrong
verbal nimbus
scroll up and look at the statement
drifting elbow
ionic charm
“AOTC is useless, I see people paying 400k gold ($80) for that stuff... if you can get CE then work hard and get CE”
ionic charm
Twice lmao
wheat zealot
hollow cloud
drifting elbow
u can buy CE too?
verbal nimbus
JoshehToday at 10:48 AM
once next tier comes out, not a single person will care about an AOTC from uldir.. now CE will turn some heads
stop being morons and read
drifting elbow
u said to me that nobody pugs mythic so CE is not needed no?
ionic charm
We linked you multiple times where you said it... tbh if you aren’t trolling it’s just sad at this point
drifting elbow
so which guild actually requires CE
real elm
@hasty coral The only way i can think of, which sounds aids is to bring up the cp gained (in resources) and your envenoms in damage done and check the time of each cast against each other and that will show you how much cp you had when you hit envenom
hollow cloud
idk man I can just keep scrolling
and find hte same statement
over n over
maybe im blind or something
must be
verbal nimbus
context my dude
drifting elbow
a lot of ppl seems to be blind 🤷
hollow cloud
cause apparently im adding statements he never said
candid mica
verbal nimbus
exactly
wary ice
Do we drop Ilvls for any of our azerite traits? or is it just a sim yo self thing?
hollow cloud
im confused
wary ice
ty
drifting elbow
sims
verbal nimbus
when next tier comes out, you liunk your AOTC for ULDIR and you wont get an invite to a CE Mythic raiding guild
hollow cloud
anywho good luck with ur CE on illidan-US
hollow cloud
and have ur boosted CE ready
drifting elbow
i know a lot of ppl who has only AOTC and got into mythic raiding guild
even those fucking ppl who didnt even raid legion
winter moss
thought serenity was build on this simple requirement
verbal nimbus
difference between a guild that goes 2/8 and 8/8
sonic spindle
Did I stumble into offtopic on accident?
verbal nimbus
must be a euro
drifting elbow
im sure a lot of ppl applies such guild
fervent beacon
Guys, please keep it to sin related
drifting elbow
fervent beacon
any AoTC/CE talk should go to #off-topic
or heads are going to roll around in here
winter moss
hoary copper
Void trying for that SB
solid nova
!warn @verbal nimbus You've derailed the chat for long enough. Having an alternate opinion is fine but it's no excuse to insult people. Keep it civil or keep it out.
real elm
i mean if you're applying to a top 100 guild you for sure are more likely to pregress in your application with previous raid tier CE's over aotc. However not having previous CE's but having decent logs etc from previous tiers and good or close to CE etc is just as likely
verbal nimbus
as an assassination rogue, i wouldnt accept someone who thinks subpar raiding requirements are viable
solid nova
@wheat zealot You too, having the bot filter it out for you isn't a bypass.
royal lantern
take that stick out of your ass and apply too method allready lul
verbal nimbus
im done
solid nova
Good.
verbal nimbus
❤
drifting elbow
oh making us think u r ''insult'' guy?
winter moss
okokok now sin related: hidden blades on ghuun myth? viable for p1 shit for the rest of the fight, should i stick to pb?
drifting elbow
no hidden blades
drifting elbow
there is no value from that talent after p1
spice surge
and p3 is basicly the only part with damage requirements
ionic charm
But imagine the padding 🙄
spice surge
Or atleast way stricter than earlier phases
winter moss
so even if im not fixated and sitting in a group of spawns hb has no value to the fight
excpt spawns die faster but there may be better bomb classes
drifting elbow
not as whole no
royal lantern
the only fight where hidden blade is not 100%trash is mother for padding imo
but even there im not sure if PB pulls more
drifting elbow
p1 is mostly irrelevant anyway
frozen pecan
do you have your hidden blade info from fragnance?
candid mica
hidden blades is decent on mythrax
drifting elbow
whats the mob amount HB is good at anyway
winter moss
nope we had our first few trys on the fat cyst yd and we were strugglin with spawns in p2
warm rapids
is shroud of suffocating worth keeping for mythic + even tho its a dps loss overall?
winter moss
wont fix the problem but might help and im here to find out if it's worth it
drifting elbow
which puts more value into SS+subterfuge
hot flume
Hi folks, do you know if the 3* garrote on ST bug is fixed in raibots or not yet ?
crisp steppe
what do you mean 3* garrote on ST bug
crisp steppe
new garrotes won't remove the shrouded suffocation bonus anymore
solid nova
It's been fixed since October 4th.
crisp steppe
as long as its a different target ofc
exotic glen
ITS BEEN MONTHS, DUDE
hot flume
No, recently the APL had an issue with casting 3*garrotes in ST, which is supposed to be only in multiple target fights
hot flume
Not taling about the issue of the in game
crisp steppe
@hot flume yeah I thought you were refering to something else just by what u said ^^
No idea
exotic glen
why dont you just look in the apl?
exotic glen
or that
hot flume
I didn't formulate my question in the right way
exotic glen
3rd time is the charm buddy
hot flume
Have the fix been pushed to the nighly build or not ?
crisp steppe
I think it has been
hot flume
Been told that there will be a post in #tc-updates but nothing yet
crisp steppe
because shrouded is higher than it was before
solid nova
The nightly is never older than 24 hours.
crisp steppe
for herodungeon
solid nova
Unless stated on the website
winter moss
ok ok, thanks
hot flume
@solid nova but the fix might not be pushed 😃
drifting elbow
wait, last week ggg rotation on ST was still there
solid nova
You can check within the apl itself for clarification.
drifting elbow
what do u mean months ago
hot flume
Dunno how mate, if you can tell me that would be nice
surreal torrent
the fix has been in for days now
drifting elbow
okay
surreal torrent
since it was just a side-effect that i fixed in less than a day i only posted a note in the research channel, no special update
hot flume
@surreal torrent thank you for the clarification
shell night
If I'm pushing keys should I be spamming "Battle Potion of Agility" if I can afford them?
candid mica
that's a really fast way to go broke
drifting elbow
use old legion pots if u really want to minmax
should be fairly cheap prolonged pots
shell night
I should have some prolongeds in my bags
round harbor
Define pushing keys
spice surge
I mean, bfa agility pots are better
drifting elbow
ofc if u r actually pushing something like 15, agi pots are more useful
spice surge
But its prob not worth over prolonged
drifting elbow
🙃
round harbor
Any key you can do this week is hardly pushing
spice surge
Unless youre pushing really high
candid mica
even in push keys I only really prepot large/hard trash pulls and bosses
round harbor
Pretty much
candid mica
but i'm also broke, if i could afford it i would pot everything
round harbor
Otherwise it's like 30k per dungeon
round harbor
Pots flasks sugar feasts are expensive lol
Maybe not 30k but a shitload between the three consumable
candid mica
generally the tanks that i run with drop feasts
strange python
flasks arent that expensive anymore
candid mica
1 flask will last 2-3 dungeons
strange python
2-3 dungeons if ure an alchemist
candid mica
depends if you deplete or not
eager linden
flasks arent, potions are though
strange python
There is no way a flask will last 3 dungeons when ure not an alch 😃
candid mica
if you aren't an alch on your main you're doing it wrong tbh
haughty flame
wuts better overwhelming power or heed my call
strange python
Sim it
final stone
haughty flame
i mean
isnt overwhelming power a bit misleading
in the sense we are always getting hit
strange python
why would u always get hit
verbal nimbus
ambient raid dmg/mechanics
fleet whale
heed my call is the safer choice but overwhelming power is quite good
verbal nimbus
i assume hes talking about
Heed my call was showing pretty good dps %'s in logs, if you have the option then it comes down to your own ability to avoid dmg, some fights dmg is unavoidable so heed would probably be better there
fleet whale
like idk how overwhelming power would work on a fight like G'huun for example
verbal nimbus
a lot of this current raid you're just constantly taking unavoidable dmg
personally I think that dmg drop should be removed from the trait, just let it fall off and restack once dropped
spice surge
A lot of fights dont actually remove OP stacks when you get damaged
Its the same as the trait that heals you every 6 seconds when you take damage
dense quest
could just means take damage from melee
I think the healing one was the same way
you only heal off melee hits
spice surge
Not really, it proccs of lots of things, but not everything which the tooltips indicate
dense quest
OP seems pretty good to me I had 44% uptime on ghuun H
most encounters its like 30-50% which is pretty normal if not really good
fleet whale
it's a good trait for sure, HMC is just a little more reliable imo and also better for aoe
candid mica
yeah but haste isn't very good in aoe
royal lantern
haste is good in aoe, mastery just has more value when you have like 100000000adds all the time
verbal mantle
calm grail
Is 3x SS still required for raiding?
slate jacinth
Hey guys - how come I sim higher with TB even when I have 2 SS pieces? It still prefers 1 archive + 1 SS and TB.
spice surge
Hes not saying haste is good for aoe, hes saying haste (overwhelming power) does something in aoe, whereas hmc typically stll only hits on target (unless they're gripped ontop of eachother), and hmc is probably not gonna hit the target with toxic blade on it either
strange python
Play what u want in that case @slate jacinth
slate jacinth
When you use exsang, do you refresh your exsang'd bleeds within pandemic or let them run out completely?
strange python
Out
low lodge
Out
candid mica
after using exsang let them run out before refreshing
slate jacinth
Alright!
When using TB, Ravenholdt says use on cooldown, but in theory, isnt it better to have fresh dots up so you can make 2 envenoms in the TB window?
spice surge
You can do both
strange python
Tb on cooldown
slate jacinth
Because if TB just on cooldown it seems easier to play with than exsang
spice surge
But yes, tb on cooldown
?
You can prepare beforehand and have fresh dots (or dots that doesnt run out)
while still using it on cd
strange python
Thats what u do
spice surge
^
You exsang on cooldown too so its just a matter of what you prepare for it and how
slate jacinth
Im not sure you should exsang on cooldown? Shouldnt you put fresh dots up first? Rather than dots already half expired
strange python
loool
candid mica
you should use it on cooldown and have fresh dots up first
prepare for it to come off cd
slate jacinth
Say my exsang becomes ready in 6 seconds, and there is currently 17 seconds left on rupture and 10 on garrote. What do I do? Do you let the dots run to pandemic, then refresh and then exsang? Or do I refresh them at their current durations to instant exsang?
strange python
Refresh
spice surge
Garrote will tick down so you can pandemic it and rupture will be fairly close so you refresh them right before (the 2 gcds before)
Super advanced is to plan your ruptures way in advance so you dont clip pandemic timers, but thats really hard
slate jacinth
I se..
tropic pike
Would using arcane torrent in your rotation be a bad idea (when you don’t have enough energy to cast a combo generator)?
candid mica
sin st has alot of dead globals
rocky notch
What else would you do
candid mica
always good to get free energy
tropic pike
Cool
fickle latch
Hey guys Iam going up agaisnt Zek voz Mythic considering i have about 15k dps on outlaw and 16k dps Assassination what would be the prefered spec for this fight in my case . Thanks
royal lantern
spamm detection in the dead globals
tropic shadow
🤔
round harbor
@fickle latch play what you want. Both are viable
Just don't take CT if you play sin. It's the biggest trap pick of 2018
candid mica
for zek'voz
strange python
He's talking about raid
drifting elbow
he talks like its generalized tho
strange python
yup
round harbor
?? I talk like the comment litterally above mine lol in which I tagged the dude
fickle latch
Well thanks for input guys
drifting elbow
yeah u commented and added CT sentence as biggest trap
drifting elbow
its clear at this point
scarlet escarp
so not sure where else to ask this but is it still possible to make a mouseover macro to use shadowstep then kick
drifting elbow
should be possible
scarlet escarp
I wondering how I making the macro wrong .,...ill get it eventually
candid mica
#showtooltip
/focus [@mouseover]
/cast [@focus] shadowstep
/cast [@focus] kick
might have to do something like that
to make it reliable
since camera changes position after ss it might not still be your mouseover
scarlet escarp
#Showtooltip Shadowstep
/cast [target=mouseover,exists] Shadowstep; Shadowstep, Kick is what I thought I used before
strange python
Never seen mouseover
candid mica
both work
strange python
oh ok
candid mica
i've always used mouseover
drifting elbow
isnt it enough to put cursor on shadowstep and regular kick command
SS should automatically target
scarlet escarp
don't always feel like having to take the time to click a bloodhexer hit both buttons then reclick that fool Zul lol
candid mica
you would have to macro ss to also target your mouseover
scarlet escarp
ahhh
candid mica
that was to Veqad
wary beacon
could also just create a mouseover focus and use normal focus macros for your stepkick, probably the simplest way of doing it
agile phoenix
guys got one ss piece with exsan. you all using the same rotation as in the ravenholdt guide ?
garote > rupture > grt mutil. vendetta > rupture > exsa
I feel like the garrote is missing out like almost 3 secs like this
topaz gulch
If you're playing exang with galecaller, are you holding exang for every galecaller? Or are you using on CD and lining them up on the third exang?
strange python
Depends on how long the fight is
spice surge
If you dont know the fight length, the safest is to use them both on CD and only lining up at 2.25 (so holding gcd a bit there)
And on pull ofc
topaz gulch
Most of our heroic kills are between 2.5 and 5 depending on boss more on mythic obviously but we are only at zek in mythic
wheat vigil
Yeah that’s kind of significant
topaz gulch
It is a huge difference ...i'm just telling you the times
wheat vigil
Checking the datas, hang on a second will ya
topaz gulch
Apl has them seperate but I've just seen some logs that line them up so I'm asking for opinions
spice surge
Lining them up is sligtly better until you miss a cast, then its quite a lot worse
Thus if you do it without missing a cast you gain, if you miss a cast you lose out
strange python
If its a long fight, id just line em up with vendetta
wheat vigil
If you miss one you get banished the phantom zone with illidan and the titans
strange python
Yeah
sturdy python
If you hold exsang for 15 secs for GCB then any fight where you would get three or more casts you lose out
Well four counting opener I supoose
spice surge
Ima give you an example. If the fight is 2 mins exactly, you should use both on pull, then exsang at 45, hold gcb and then use it together with exsang again at 90 (1.30)
strange python
yeah
spice surge
Since you wont get another use of gcb anyawy
topaz gulch
It just feels bad using exang then 15 sec later caller, my brain just wants them to be together. I get that if you line them everytime and the fight is long you will lose an exang cast which is obviously also bad
spice surge
Exsang cd is short so you typically use it on cd and rearrage your other CDs around it
EG its better to hold vendetta+vanish for 25 seconds and use them together at 2.25 (so from 2.00 > 2.25) than to hold exsang for 30 seconds (1.30 > 2.00)
assuming you dont miss a cast ofc
inner pulsar
I just press the shit that lights up
spice surge
The retribution-way of life
strange python
everything on cd 
spice surge
You forgot the 🥁 @inner pulsar
topaz gulch
Yeah that makes sense, thanks eleem. Just trying to optimize a little more. Most fights I'm in the 90s for parse but there are a few that are in the 70s and I think using cds a bit better will change that. Our group is just so hit and miss with who is there so the times very slightly each time and what worked for cd rotation one week doesnt work the next. Its definitely partly a group issue but I just want to optimize better myself
spice surge
In my experience you can get around 95s by just playing well yourself but the last few % requires certain conditions (quick fights being the most usual one)
civic palm
Even hitting most 95's already requires non-standard encounter strategies.
spice surge
Depends on the fights and how long the raid has been out and stuff, so yeah. Not a very rigid line
swift kelp
Like cheesing heroic mother in the first room only and healers barely healing at all? Lol
civic palm
or just burning CDs and dragging her straight to Room3.
bleak star
is DD bugged?
didnt proc once on mother for me
and i have head and shoulders with it
first prov from it ive had was vectis trash and it procced once
verbal nimbus
head shoulders knees and toes
round harbor
Inb4 weapon broken
quiet crescent
Did you forget poison?
bleak star
i dont think so
round harbor
Gear change on accident?
bleak star
nah i had correct gear on i double checked
it wasnt even proccing on trash before vectis
it procced once on all the trash
but i got 49 procs ont he boss for 300k
candid mica
could've just been unluck
bleak star
its 100% proc chance though?
quiet crescent
It's not a luck thing. Its everytime mutilate applies poison
candid mica
tooltips says it procs when mut applies a poison with both hits
bleak star
well it did 188 mutilate and only 49 procs
candid mica
so you can mut w/o a proc
bleak star
but 8% my damage seems back to normal now
just weird how it wasnt proccing i refreshed spec and armor too to try fix it but nothing was happening...
i thought recount was bugged or something
quiet crescent
I'm going with the no poisons on theory.
candid mica
yeah that's probably what happened
bleak star
but on vectis trash i 100% had poisons
quiet crescent
It's always the same damage as my mainhand mutilate give or take a bit.
bleak star
and it procced once
quiet crescent
If you had poisons, I have no clue why then possible bug. At least it's working now.
bleak star
recount is gone now but i was trying to proc it by spamming mut on the trash and it only procced once but yeah it seems to be back to normal now
spice surge
Double dose doesnt have a very high procc rate if you dont have the envenom buff up
round harbor
^^
spice surge
Its 25% without it and 64% with it
Should average out to around 50-60% depending on how well you play/luck
proccing on 50-60% of your mutilate casts that is
bleak star
well 49 out of 188 i did dog shit
strange python
question do you guys still notice "miss"???
round harbor
In what way?
brazen panther
man ... azerite traits comparison gives me headache
normal flint
triple heed my call or triple gutripper? if you run M+ and raid
spice surge
Sim it. Ultimately its gonna be fairly inconsequential since they're both good traits
strange python
Heed for aoe
warm brook
i dont really get the guide, whats the opener on st for 1 ss
thin trout
!stats
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Stat weights:
Single target: haste > crit > mastery > vers
Multi target: crit > mastery > vers >= haste
Note: Simming will always result in more accurate results.
molten moon
Is there any value to archive in M+? Running 1x archive and 1x SS or 2x SS? I sim better with 2x SS but I've seen some top rogues throw in an Archive in their M+ runs.
safe matrix
Archive doesn't instantly fall off when you get out of combat
So it'll be on max stacks a lot longer than the sims show
Unless you do the dungeon sim that's pinned in #subtlety
molten moon
good point, im simming 60 seconds, 5 bosses, no buffs so you probably don't get full value of archive.....but it's still a 1.1k dps difference
visual token
Is there a way to set it to start at say, 15 stacks?
ivory orchid
Is there a number of mobs where CT > PB? In M+
solar rose
The reason top rogues use archive is because at higher keys you need the health to live some of the mechanics, I personally don’t think archive is that great compared to SS
If your talking raw damage
modest zodiac
What spec do you recommend for zek voz mythic? ass ST, cleave? sub st cleave? w.e
safe matrix
It depends on what type of damage you need
spice surge
@visual token I'd assume smacking a turnip dummy for 100 seconds to stack it up before you start the key would work
safe matrix
If you need the voidweavers dead, go sub. If you need the warriors dead go outlaw. And if you want better zek damage go sin
spice surge
It would go down a few stacks during the countdown but not overly so
safe matrix
But all three specs are fine for the fight
spice surge
Similar to how boomies stack astral power
Sidenote: Thats a spooky name you got there
ionic charm
Let’s hope smacking the turnip doesn’t become the thing you have to do before every key
molten moon
sounds naughty
strange python
Any tips for Fetid mythic? cd management etc
inner pecan
best thing for sin is to be on big add and use Vanish/Vendetta on 1st and 3rd adds
lust on 2nd
ebon summit
Is shrouded suffocation still the go-to trait, alot of guides still claims this after the last nerf but it dont perfom that well in sim compared to other traits, or should I still stack 1xArray/Lazer and 2xSS for Uldir and 3xSS for M+ or start switching traits according to what the sims say?
dull osprey
I'm currently running exang build and I'm wondering if I should be refreshing my garrote/rupture to the max right before hitting exang, even if my bleed still have 75+% duration left?
inner pecan
@ebon summit For raid just follow the sim, but keep in mind that Uldir isn't Patchwerk and SS performs better with multiple targets
For m+ it's more of a judgment call but SS is better than any trait at equal ilvl for that
ebon summit
Yeah I figured as much and since almost every boss fight in Uldir has some sort of cleave phases I guess SS still performs well in there
warm brook
is wound poison viable for pve?
inner pecan
@warm brook no never
@ebon summit yeah it still performs well in Uldir but on pure Patchwerk the ideal Azerite setup would be 2x Double Dose 1x Archive
spice surge
Double dose is fairly hard to acquire at high ilvl atm, which is the reason why it isnt as widespread as it "should" be on logs
dull osprey
@inner pecan Do you know if I should be refreshing bleeds right before an exang, even if they have 3/4+ duration left?
spice surge
Not really. Rule of thumb according to sims is refresh if rupture is under 20 seconds left, whereas garrote you should only refresh if its fairly close to pandemic
@dull osprey
I tried different threshholds on sims but couldnt find anything that gave more dps. It doesnt actually refresh garrote at all unless its in pandemic range, which seems odd but 🤷
sick eagle
Is it worth going TB for M+ is the energy regen from Exang isn't necessary?
inner pecan
If anything it's less worth going TB in m+
For one you should be running SS in m+ and Exsg is better with SS
But also, TB requires uptime on your target for 8s straight and gives absolutely no cleave benefit while Exsg will give you a little bit of regen for cleave and doesn't require you to sit on target for 8s
sick eagle
yea but if things last enough for SS to finish it's not really a big dps increase is it, This week is Tyran as well so it helps with that.
inner pecan
Not sure what you mean by if things last enough for SS to finish it's not a DPS increase
But by all means try both for yourself and see
Personally I've tried and see no reason to run TB in m+ ever
sick eagle
I did more damage on a 14 atal with blade,not a big increase tho
spice surge
It would be if you only have like 340 SS pieces and 385 other pieces with good traits
wary reef
Is it SS that makes mastery shoot up in value for aoe? I don't any any atm but any form of aoe sims show haste crit significantly ahead of mastery
spice surge
what do you mean? Crit is basicly always ahead of mastery for aoe
inner pecan
Curious how exactly you're simming aoe that haste comes ahead of mastery though
SS does make Mastery better on AoE though, yes. But it's not the sole thing
wary reef
Well thats why I asked really, cause guides would suggest that haste shouldn't be even close on aoe, so should I just ignore it?
round harbor
Cause it's not
inner pecan
How are you simming AoE?
wary reef
Just the hecticadd on raidbots, never been keen on using that sim though but I play a lot of classes and some say use that and some say don't so /shrug
inner pecan
Well that's not really an AoE sim
it's a ST boss with intermittent add spawns
When most people refer to AoE sims they're talking about something like a m+ pull, 4-5 target Patchwerk 40s with buffs off
wary reef
Ill do that and see if it changes
spice surge
Which is also why aoe sims arent very useful in most cases. Because you need a very specific setup for the exact situation your trying to sim for, whereas you could get a 95% accurate answer by just following the simple stat guide in the pins
Its also why ST is used as general sim measurement even though there are rarely a boss that is purely ST
wary reef
Well doing that patchwerk 40 seconds sim shows much more accurate results
than my previous lol, cheers
undone blade
Hey, in the method assa guide he said to use vendetta right before exsanguinate instead of multilate-rapture-exsanguinate. Which one is correct?
spice surge
It doesnt matter
undone blade
Oh ok
spice surge
You get the full exsang inside vendetta regardless and you get full uptime on SS garrote regardless
So it doesnt really matter
undone blade
Ty very much
opaque grotto
It’s probably a slight gain to vendetta earlier because you get a couple empowered garrote ticks with vendetta going
candid wraith
When u sim does it include ur stacks of Reorigination Array?
twin pollen
if I have garrote and rupture up and use exang, and then I refresh those dots, is exang wasted or not because of the refresh?
spice sorrel
you think it's worth it to drop a 385 archive for a 355 SS for m+? It's a dps loss in patchwerk but might be worth it for trash? I'd still have one archive but I have no other SS pieces
spice surge
@twin pollen Let them tick out or you waste exsang
@candid wraith It does if you tell it too
twin pollen
kk thanks
spice surge
If you're using raidbots go into the settings and you can adjust your array stacks
candid wraith
okay im looking for it
just trying to see the differance between two shoulders one with archive and one without
without stacks
spice surge
Press simulation options (near the bottom) and then edit the array box
slate bear
is it pos that https://www.wowhead.com/item=161462/dooms-wake&bonus=5119:1492 same good as GB trinket?
spice surge
If it sims as good as GB? Yes, check out herodamage.com for trinket sims
slate bear
would u use it instead of GB?
strange python
Sim it
slate bear
should i sim him thoughts?
inner pulsar
Are you asking if you should sim it?
echo geyser
Any troll sin rogues got input on when to use Berserking racial? do u line it up with every 3rd vendetta ?
drifting elbow
1min wait seems really long for single cd pairing
wide furnace
I'd check logs and see what other trolls are doing
spice surge
its gonna depend on fight length (as asways)
On a 5 min fight you would use it with second vendetta
On a 7 min fight that would make you lose a cast, so it wouldnt be good to do that, then you would line it up with the 4:th one instead
crisp hollow
is the difference between elemental whirl and heed my call enough to justify rerolling 2 chests with SS on them? i'd do it for overwhelming power but idk if heed is worth
spice surge
Idk how much higher it sims but i would do it
It goes down after a while anyway so 🤷
drifting elbow
there really is no reason to switch 2nd tier traits all the time
crisp hollow
yeah i guess if im not doing it frivolously it should work out
spice surge
All inner traits barring overwhelming are pretty weak
crisp hollow
yeah fuck it i dont think i care enough yet
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/oSUd2PJVQgZrEciwSz6Pf3 2 SS on patchwerk is a 600 dps loss for me
but plays a lot nicer
drifting elbow
well there is no need to take 2 SS
one SS is plenty for raids if u care about ''nicer'' feeling
crisp hollow
my bis patchwerk setup is 0 SS which is lame but i tolerate it for some fights
spice surge
I mean, its not like SS massively changes your rotation with its 2/4 extra cp every 2 minutes
inner pulsar
Lol
inner pulsar
So once a fight
thorn crater
guys i know im prolly late to the party but given the changes to 8.1 will vers start mattering?
spice surge
I understand prefering exsang to tb but saying SS changes the rotation is a bit of a stretch imo
crisp hollow
well exsang without SS is questionable so the point still stands imo
inner pulsar
No
THat isn't his point
His point is you press Exsang or TB multiple times a fight, and you actually change something around that usage
thorn crater
btw i have a question for someone that actually knows about herodmg not sure if a mod can help me @vestal wren what kind of array bonus does the x10 give based on the preset gear?
jaunty crystal
can someone remind me what options are best for M+ sims
thorn crater
is it haste?
spice surge
Your highest stat
spice surge
Mostly haste, sometimes crit
thorn crater
like i cant start adding secondaries on the gear given as tier 22 suggested 😛
inner pulsar
Its going to use haste I'm sure
spice surge
Its gonna get crit when the crit enchant is procced and the haste one isnt
It updates every 5 seconds to the highest you have
inner pulsar
Hmmm
drifting elbow
its gonna be small difference in RA buff stats due to weapon enchants
molten moon
Does Double Dose lose some effectiveness without toxic blade? I'm assuming DD has higher proc chance during TB uptime, so using DD with exang is not very optimal
spice surge
No it has the same procc chance, but Tb increases its damage
molten moon
oh ok....envenom helps the procc chance, mixed those up
lean coral
anyone know if any of the emmisaries can have a DD helm?
spice surge
DD proccs more often with envenom up as its based on poison applications
molten moon
right? or am i totally off. DD adds damage if both daggers proc poison.....poison applicatoin is increased during envenom buff
right
spice surge
@lean coral Yes nvm, the gonk one does
molten moon
Any reason why someone would run exang over TB even if it sims 300 DPS lower? Is it just playstyle? I see lots of top rogues running exang in raid.
thorn crater
i sim for 18,1k but i cant deal more than 16 unless i get like crazy PB proccs and then i go to 22
vectis mythic
which is a pretty simple fight
what could i be doing wrong sigh
molten moon
I guess my Sub sim isnt that far off in the Sim....kinda weird to me that Sub is still decent without SS or Exang in raid.
vestal wren
@thorn crater should be haste
flint swift
@molten moon pretty sure exsang sims higher for shorter fights, and top parsers will generally have shorter fights.
civic palm
Yeep.
molten moon
ohhh didn't even consider that. Thanks
flint swift
@thorn crater are you accounting for the intermission time in the vectis fight in your sims?
i have no idea how you would account for that, but that could be why you're having trouble hitting your numbers
topaz notch
Will i be able to cloak bursting? never played rogue at the bursting affix before
flint swift
iirc cloak works with bursting
civic palm
Yarp.
topaz notch
"iirc"?
flint swift
if i remember correctly
topaz notch
ah thanks! you youngsters with your slang lingo
flint swift
totes magotes
civic palm
More like... oldsters...
molten moon
@flint swift running my sims at 3 min length makes SUB / EXANG better. 5 min fight lengths makes MA / TB better. I'm assuming because of the better spike in damage on a third vanish / MA in the longer fight
daring iron
are any boss fights longer than 5 minutes now? lol
civic palm
A few, but only due to phases.
molten moon
I just always used default settings for my raid sim....but I primarily run M+ anyway so glad you guys convinced me Exang is the way to go over TB, but it applies to raiding now too
topaz notch
hmm, i wonder at what minute/sec the breakpoint is, and what dmg it really do matter
molten moon
4 min fight still had MA / TB better, but not by much.
flint swift
yeah man sims are tricky lol. 5 minute patchwerk is the default but it almost never covers any given raid fight, so it's important to tweak your settings a bit depending on what you want to achieve
fight length is a good place to start for sure
topaz notch
Exang is better in m+?
flint swift
and i'm by no means a sim expert
daring iron
Exang is better when you have 2 SS, that's how you choose between exang and tb imo lol
swift kelp
Patchwork is literally no movement and just dps your ass off, closest we have to that is like, Fetid if you super overgear it on heroic?
molten moon
every top rogue runs exang in M+ because of the extra early energy to apply ruptures....and it outscales TB in shorter boss fights (at least for me).
topaz notch
i do have 2 SS, but it feels like atm every 25 sec i can do garrote, rupture, garrote, toxic blade
flint swift
yeah i've been running 2 ss 1 archive for almost all of uldir and haven't felt the need to swap to TB. plus i enjoy the exsang playstle better
topaz notch
in what situation do you use exang?
molten moon
@daring iron Some top warcraft logs show rogues using 1x archive and only 1x SS and still running exang
topaz notch
i mean in m+, when do u use exang, what should u save it for
flint swift
i basically use it on CD tobias
daring iron
For m+, Garrote 3 targets, CT, FOK and rupture a target with garrote, exang him, fok rupture everything else
thats my m+ trash rotation usually.
for like 3-8 target pulls
flint swift
if i know i'm going to need it for a priority target before 45 seconds, i'll save it, but that almost never happens.
but tbh i have been screwed by that before hahaha
topaz notch
CT? are you always using CT? even on tyrannical? and where is the breakpoint where u go from PB to CT in m+ range? like m+ 2 CT cant be better, if u know what im trying to ask? xD
daring iron
In high keys take CT
topaz notch
even im getting confused by my grammar
topaz notch
when u say higher keys, u mean like +8~ and above or like 10 and above?
molten moon
I think it also depends on your pulls. If your tank is only doing one pack of 3-4 at a time, personal bomb might be better. If you are pulling 2 packs with 5+ mobs, the CT is way better
daring iron
Well I do like 13-15's atm, but yeah anything above like 6 I'd argue CT is better lol
topaz notch
hmm, interesting! i will try it ouy
flint swift
i think what thecdew is trying to say is that as long as your group doesn't massively overgear the content, take CT
topaz notch
ct is useless at boss fights tho right?
daring iron
If the tank is pulling 2-4 mobs every pull, you're doing m+ wrong tbh
yeah it isn't used on boss fights
topaz notch
kk, im really noob atm, still learning :p
molten moon
my good buddy is a prot warrior tank, so we take our runs slow hahaha, he's excited for his 8.1 buff
flint swift
well you're asking all the right questions
daring iron
It does solid damage, you'll love it lol
flint swift
so that's already better than like 90% of people hahaha
molten moon
completely off topic - what do the colors of our names mean in this discord mean?
daring iron
infact, on like 20 target pulls, for example the first pull in Shrine, you can spam CT instead of envenoming or rupturing
it does like 2-3k base damage to every target
flint swift
they refer to our chosen spec
which you declare to gain speaking privs, iirc
yellow is outlaw, red is assassination, teal is sub, then purple and OJ are the mods/admins or whatever
topaz notch
atm i use 2 SS and 1 scrub trait, i garrote as many as i can, then rupture the first target i switch to when garrote is on cd, then FoK rupture, but i have been thinking alot of the fact that my combo points stack up fast in bigger pulls, so it takes gcd to envenom, so i will try out CT right this instant!
daring iron
On large pulls, don't bother refreshing garrote on cd. just do your initial 3.
and focus on rupturing
flint swift
i'll re-garrote in a larger pull if i can spare a vanish
daring iron
use vanish if you won't be fighting a boss in the next two minutes, pump out 3 more garrotes.
flint swift
^^
topaz notch
i would really like to get a Scent of blood trait, would feel guud
rather 2ss and 1 scent for my playstyle, instead of 1 ss and 2 archive
vocal harbor
have you guys seen these 8.1 shrouded and ttk changes?
instead of +flat damage, they scale with versatility now
vocal harbor
i actually think it double dips
flint swift
a lot of people find that kind of thing annoying
vocal harbor
because vers already increases all damage
and the equations here factor in your versatility % to scale the base damage
flint swift
as long as it doesn't become a legion DH crit type situation
then i'm fine with bumping the effectiveness of certain secondaries in certain playstyles
topaz notch
what is ttk?
flint swift
especially with the 8.1 azerite changes
spice surge
TTK and SS already scale with vers
@vocal harbor
Its just not reflected in the tooltip
vocal harbor
well doesn't everything?
spice surge
Well yes
vocal harbor
you're saying this is just a text string change?
and the traits are not getting new additional vers scaling?
vocal harbor
okay, that makes sense. i noticed some of the ptr changes were just like, wording of stuff
spice surge
It doesnt make sense to buff all of our best traits by 45%
vocal harbor
like how sinister strike now tells you that it generates one cp per strike
my buddies were telling me the way wowhead/mmo champion gets these changes is just by comparing the text strings of the abilities
daring iron
there was a lot of bitching about tooltips being misleading or confusing
so they're updating a lot of them
spice surge
And it does make sense to make the tooltips reflect the actual damage it does
pliant nest
wait what changes are you talking about? can someone link me to them?
spice surge
Scroll down to changed, its almost certainly only text changes so the tooltip actually shows the damage it does
molten moon
@topaz notch my Sims only make scent of blood worth it with large 6t+ otherwise double SS is better. It assumes you can maintain SoB on a lot of targets
vocal harbor
yeah i saw that
that's kinda sad because it's the only thing they were still good at
topaz notch
well i have double ss, and i want Scent with it i mean @molten moon
Cant get in to any keys Kappa, 356 ilvl problems xD
pliant nest
the new outlaw trait seems really good. hope i wont have to play that spec in m+ :/
vocal harbor
yeah it's probably tooltip
pliant nest
yea kinda but if the fight is long enough it evens out for the most part
daring iron
I played it for most of the xpac, it's fun. rtb is awesome. it just has high highs and low lows
deadshot makes the spec really enjoyable. I stopped playing it once I didn't have any high ilvl deadshot pieces
topaz notch
i can seriously only get in to a +4 right now, with 1k rio, 356 ilvl lyfe
vocal harbor
outlaw is fun as fuck
flint swift
outlaw is amazing and has the best transmogs
topaz notch
so i cant test that CT to max, hopefully id get a higher key tho
vocal harbor
the rng isn't that big of a deal because you don't reroll during add cleave
it's basically a nonfactor in m+ to be honest
flint swift
the reason i swapped was because i wanted access to 2 specs with 1 set of weapons
vocal harbor
i like outlaw because it has high apm
and sin has extremely low apm
i like to press a lot of buttons personally
vocal harbor
although sin in m+ trash does not feel low apm
cuz you get so much energy regen and you get to spam mfd all over the place
pliant nest
sin in m+ is pretty fun imo
vocal harbor
but when i play that spec in uldir i'm 💤
flint swift
well let's be real all the rogue specs are fun and inventive
vocal harbor
i play sin exclusively in arena and i love it
pliant nest
in single target outlaw and sin are both a bit boring imo
vocal harbor
but the amount of time i'm just sitting there on fetid having 0 energy and spamming mutilate
i sleep
pliant nest
outlaw is spamming two buttons while youre not rerolling rtb, with sin you at least have to keep dots up
flint swift
i'm actually really enjoying sub
daring iron
I miss ToS tier for sub
flint swift
and i thought it would be easily the most boring spec of the three
daring iron
sub was insane in tos.
pliant nest
yea sub's fun
vocal harbor
you got procs with pistol shot, you also finish with bte sometimes
yeah it's only a couple core buttons but you get to press them fast at least
63 apm for outlaw versus 42 for sin 💤
civic palm
Correct.
sturdy python
Sin doesn't have anymore buttons anyway, just a bit more planning involved
tame stratus
surprised a 365 socketed dagger is siming ahead of a 370 dagger by about 1% - i thought MH dps was incredibly valuable
sturdy python
It is, make sure enchants were simmed properly and try to sim the socket off hand
vocal harbor
if i had traits tbh i'd play it in m+ all day
sturdy python
But a socket is pretty good so wouldn't be that surprised
vocal harbor
but i only have pvp traits
vocal harbor
i run with a bm hunter and he basically makes explosive a non-affix
but yeah i've only got 2x SoB, 1x SS
it's probably okay for fortified but for ST it sucks
merry elbow
Bm hunter is not that good for explosives anymore.
hollow cloud
whats SoB 
daring iron
this week isn't easy, not worth pushing keys at all lol
vocal harbor
yeah
hollow cloud
i honestly think most traits work in raid
daring iron
I mean for MA build sure
hollow cloud
as long as u have 1x archive or whatever, the uldir one for origination
vocal harbor
oh i also don't have galecaller's
or like any of the good trinkets for sin
i have fathoms and frenetic
vocal harbor
i think galecaller's is the best, the one from king's rest is pretty good too
what is dmd?
hollow cloud
darkmoondeck
vocal harbor
i also have 375 on use agility trinket from arena
which is pretty decent according to hero damage but still not quite as good as galecaller's or the KR trink
vocal harbor
hmm i should gear compare
hollow cloud
i mean galecallers also assumes
you can stay in that position
so u need to prep for it
vocal harbor
because my sin doesn't sim anywhere near as good as my outlaw gear
and i'd like it to be at least close
hollow cloud
wait how much do u sim as outlul
daring iron
I rune GC dice, or GC dmd
vocal harbor
with ace
vocal harbor
i have snek traits but it's just not fun
shrewd bane
stupid question but I had allways (with one SS) : garrot mutilate rupture vendetta exsanguinate mutilate (4+) envenom
but I see that I shoukd garrite rupture garrote vendetta mutilate rupture ?
what's the point of using rupture with 3 cp
and refresh garrote
eager haven
You put them at max duration
eager haven
^
pastel wasp
vocal harbor
yeah and subsequently more exsang time
@shrewd bane when you reapply a dot before it fully runs out, it gains extra max duration. the interaction is called pandemic
shrewd bane
i know that
vocal harbor
exsanguinate makes your dots tick out twice as fast
so you want the maximum possible duration
shrewd bane
oh right
hollow cloud
what talents do u even run as snek eyes outlaw
shrewd bane
mutilate
hollow cloud
shrewd bane
didn't see the multiate after vendetta
so that makes sense
i thought you were refreshing the rupture with a 3cp rupture again
thanks everything is alright then
topaz notch
Alright, not sure if any1 s still here of those who i discussed the matter with, but this CT pulled up my total damage significant
so thanks for the recomendation guys!
balmy perch
crossing my fingers for a SS this emmisary
wary ice
Should I invest in fathoms, or at this point is it just a hold over till drops?
or is it sim yo self 😦
cobalt gyro
fathoms is gonna be pretty good until you replace it next tier/you get trinkets that are better for aoe (a high ilevel harlan's is an example) but at this point, tbh, unless you get a really good deal, i wouldn't
wary ice
ty; it currently sims as a 2% damage increase
but thats cause my trinkets are garbage questing greens lol
i dont really have a lot of gold cause PoTiOnS on my main
balmy perch
fuck ya!!!
oak tangle
i got a 385 dead eye spyglass, and a 375 loaded dice,. that sim better than fathoms
scenic jetty
Why excited for SS? Doesnt it sim lower than most azerite traits?
strange python
Because its bis for m+ ??????
oak tangle
do the sims take into account the bonus CP's
scenic jetty
That's why I ask I'm curious
Ans the sim should include extra CP or else sims are broken.
spice surge
Yes it does
scenic jetty
Bloodmallet sims SS very low. Double Dose is BiS azerite trait
spice surge
Use herodamage instead
99% of the time when you think to yourself "does simc handle this" it does.
coarse knot
Is DD +2 best for raids at this point?
coarse knot
Then 1 archive I assume?
strange python
ye
oak tangle
hero damage doesn't sim without MA does it
strange python
It does
spice surge
Has been since SS nerf
coarse knot
So should I change my 385 azerite for 370 DD azerite?
spice surge
There is a subterfuge icon next to things simmed with subterfuge
strange python
SIM IT
oak tangle
ah i see ty
strange python
Well then 🤷
spice surge
Do you really need to know it right now then? 😉
coarse knot
Very true I’m just asking in general
oak tangle
also of my experience i doubt a single trait is that much better over another that 15 ilvls wont be better
strange python
You're wrong
spice surge
It used to sim twist with deeper strategem aswell but it never really went past the standard setup so i guess they removed it
oak tangle
(outside of the first archive or laser matrix)
spice surge
SS and DD are both good traits so i dont think it will be better, but if we're talking bad traits such as poisoned wire a 15 ilvl downgrade is def gonna be an upgrade
strange python
You didnt look hard enough
oak tangle
lucky i guess
spice surge
I mean, it doesnt matter if the inner ring has overwhelming power if the out ring is bad
daring cave
Is it better to run CT in M+?
spice surge
Yes, generally
daring cave
ok
lone junco
2 fat dd, but I can only use 1 due to archive slot. oy.
karmic ingot
Honestly, if you’re asking whether or not you should run CT for M+, you’re probably at a point where you’d get better performance from PB. You should absolutely experiment with CT, but unless you’re running high keys with a regular group, PB will likely be just as good or better.
steep obsidian
i mean damage wise for me its marginal but i normall run with a cleave heavy group and don't push stupidly high keys
fiddle and see what works better for you
torpid nova
steep obsidian
umm
play sub
stack mastery
press ss and evisc over and over
sub channel can help with more specific things
youd be nuts to play sin on mythic zul
frail wasp
and your group would be nuts to let you play sin if you can play sub
feral cargo
guys raidbouts can sim every dice of the Harlan's Loaded Dice?
smoky prism
this is a noob question but do crits guarantee a poison application?
amber arrow
No
thin trout
guys, when I use a subterfuged Garrote, if I refresh Garrote before the first oen runs out, how does the damage inrease work?
safe matrix
As long as the most recent garrote is cast from stealth/subterfuge it will be buffed
thin trout
yeah, but I mean after I'm out of stealth
safe matrix
If a garrote from nonstealth is cast it will just overwrite the buffed one with an unbuffed one
thin trout
so I should only cast it after the buffed garrote is at 0?
safe matrix
Yep
thin trout
thanks!
what about Exsanguinate
how does that work with Rupture/Garrote, also don't refresh before 0?
safe matrix
Don't refresh early
Exsang is the same
You're replacing a buffed bleed with an unbuffed one
thin trout
alright sweet thanks alot that makes sense