assassination

[spare cloud]

Mize r1 feelycrafter confirmed?

[civic palm]

Huh?

You not seeing a strong opener isn't my fucking problem.

[spare cloud]

Who talked about openers?

[civic palm]

When else are you casting Garrote from Stealth? Other than the opener, and the reopener from Vanish?

_>

[spare cloud]

I cast garotte from steath always because im sneaky like that

[civic palm]

So sneaky.

[primal moss]

So I have a semi in depth question that is too big for the basic questions. should I put it in here or another channel?

[spare cloud]

Yes

[exotic glen]

this is fine

[civic palm]

Who knows, hitme!!

[dire spoke]

[civic palm]

Flasks got nerfed as well.

[spare cloud]

You have been nerfed

[fleet whale]

that sinister strike change though

[primal moss]

so I am trying to decide what class to main and it is between rogue, lock and mage

i like all 3 of them is the problem
and i always tank and sometimes heal for raids and am trying to force myself out of my comfort zone and dps in raids

so thus those are the 3 classes I am picking between that are pure dps

I like the mobility of the sub rogue, and the speed of assassination. I dont like outlaw due to the random factor but I can talent out of that but its still a bit meh compared to the other two for me.

I like frost mage and am curious about the new arcane mage, dont like fire

I think the new demo spec looks freaking legit, Destro is alright and affliction is kinda meh
thats where I am at right now

[spare cloud]

Play what you like

[dire spoke]

Ask yourself again in 3 month maybe

[civic palm]

Just wait till the prepatch and see how you like things when it matters again.

[spare cloud]

Obviously rogues are going to tell you rogue

[primal moss]

im gonna ask this question in all 3 discord

[spare cloud]

Wtf

[primal moss]

lol

[fleet whale]

I kind of like that azerite trait that increases envenom damage and duration even if it's boring

[spare cloud]

Do you expect that rogues are going to tell you to play mage?

And that mages are going to tell you to play warlock?

[primal moss]

no was more kinda hoping that there would be a compelling argument to play x class over yz

like selling me on it

[fleet whale]

Warlocks will just tell you to play demo cause it has a ton of hype right now

[spare cloud]

Rogues are favoured in progress due to survivability

[primal moss]

like what can i bring to the raid playing a rogue that others couldnt hope to do

[spare cloud]

Mages bring hero

Warlocks Gateway

[primal moss]

yea like that, i did not know that for progress

[fleet whale]

locks bring stones and brez too

[spare cloud]

So play what you enjoy most

Youre not gonna have fun if you just play a class because its useful in raid

You need to enjoy the class in general

Nobody can tell you what you enjoy

You have to figure that out yourself

[primal moss]

yea i fully get that. thats why hunters not on the list lol

[dire spoke]

Tomorrow I want you to eat Broccoli btw

[spare cloud]

I eat naya for breakfast

[dire spoke]

[spare cloud]

Yeah well i can tell you that what you bring to the raid doesnt matter if you fail or have no fun

I recommend trying all the classes and picking what you enjoy most

[dire spoke]

Play rogue

[exotic glen]

rogues are bis

[spare cloud]

Play warlock

[exotic glen]

bis class

play mage

[spare cloud]

Wow

That was poor

[dire spoke]

Or be like the players that always play flavor of the month, because they either only enjoy a class if they can top meters or the overpowered dps is the only thing that carries them

[civic palm]

Just find a bad guild and always top the meters.

[strange python]

👌

[exotic glen]

you're more likely to top the meters on a class you're good at and have better gear for

@supple hearth also, was about to tag you in there, but realised that would just bloat the channel with more non-sense

[primal moss]

and thats what i am trying to figure out which I enjoy more of. I think I will just have to see how the new arcane and demo is cause I dont like fire super well. I think for 3 specs I like the rogue the best but singular specs it would be mage in legion

[autumn bloom]

you enjoy frost mage but dislike randomness?

0_o

[primal moss]

i dont mind procs, i just didnt like the roll the bones

it felt very lacking if I got a bad roll

also transmogs for rogue are much better than mage lol

[autumn bloom]

sounds like you already know what you want to play 😛

[plain thistle]

play SnD like everyone else 🤷

[primal moss]

I think you may be right @autumn bloom just needed some convincing nudges lol. but I am still holding out for demo cause that looks like how demo should have been from day 1

[amber quail]

Play druid/paladin: u may heal/tank/dps

[exotic glen]

monk 🤔

flowis guide is official btw

you heard it here first

[primal tangle]

How does threat work? If everyone in the raid misdirects to a rogue and he tricks another target, and then gets the most dps what happens?

I assume threat is aggregate

[exotic glen]

i'd assume the rogue takes threat because you cant misdirect other peoples threat

but idk

[autumn bloom]

Tricks only shifts aggro from the rogues attacks.

[steep obsidian]

i am pretty sure you cant stack multiple misdirects at least you used to not be able to

may have changed

[rose sparrow]

how are rogues looking in the beta right now behind or promising?

[austere trail]

whyd i get pinged

[autumn bloom]

@rose sparrow really can't make any kind of call since what matters are the numbers and they're all gonna get tweaked

there's some cool quality of life improvements for sure imo

[strange python]

@here doing chosen run 960+ leme know if you want in

[supple hearth]

Na/eu alliance/horde @strange python

[strange python]

na horde

[tardy belfry]

I got insigna, does it change my AoE rotation or I should treat it as a passive buff to mutilate?

[stark heart]

Iirc you use fok at 3+ targets with insignia

That's about it

[civic palm]

That's the last I heard as well.

[prime void]

Make sure you're standing appropriately

[old sphinx]

morning people 😃

[prime void]

👀

[civic palm]

Quit lookin at yer own butt ya weirdo.

[old sphinx]

Hei, let him be, he's got a good lookin butt

[prisma gull]

But it's a nice butt.

[solid nova]

It's a butt, but its no @fervent beacon

[prisma gull]

I'd look at mine all the time if it looked like that

[old sphinx]

same tbh

[shrewd night]

Another build, another disappointment

[old sphinx]

wat ?

[shrewd night]

Rogues are fine on BETA apparently

[old sphinx]

haven't played beta since raidtest

anything changed ?

[shrewd night]

No

[old sphinx]

yikes

btw

you wanna guard my car today ?

it's gonna be a sauna by evening come

[nimble tartan]

mmm

[shrewd night]

Nah. Unless there is a real chance of random people shitting in your car. And even then, your car isn't a pool.

[old sphinx]

ya never know

[tranquil wolf]

I guess the mmo-c post or "spellchanges" are no changes at all? It says "Increased dmg of ...." but thats just the passive specc-aure we had before isn't it? There was no 32% buff? They just corrected some wording?

[slim spade]

!guides

[safe matrix]

!singuide

[chrome tusk]

Assassination guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/

[safe matrix]

Also check the top of the page 👀

[slim spade]

arent there more guides?

[safe matrix]

Like what kind

The other specs are in the other channels

And notters guide is the best assassination guide by far

[viscid helm]

[safe matrix]

Yes flowi

Let me recommend icy veins next time

[supple hearth]

as long as its not noxxic x)

[fallow estuary]

Icy Veins increased in quality tbh - its nowhere near perfect but looking at the guides it could be worse

[safe matrix]

Yeah, it depends on the author, I think hunters exclusively use icy veins as their guides

But they're usually super slow to update it and most classes are meh to garbo for a long fuxking time

[jovial kite]

Iv

[shrewd night]

Let our Lord and saviour don tell you something about IV

[old sphinx]

link it

[dire spoke]

[dire spoke]

man dis sux ... I got a 960 KG ring now but idk if I can ditch 945 gnawed because APL shtupid

sargerite 2.313.211 - gnawed 2.306.112 (0.3%)

[marble hemlock]

what fight duration did you sim?

[dire spoke]

hmm 5min

[marble hemlock]

id say that 6min+ fight, use gnawed, 5min or less, use kingaroth

since you just barely dont get a second use out of the ring in a 5min fight its worse than the kingaroth ring there

[dire spoke]

yeah

on use items are the wurst

except they're for AoE

[marble hemlock]

i didnt really mind them

until m+ came around and all that gearswitching basically made on-use items really annoying

stupid 30sec CD when you equip an item, never uip for pull during mantle ><

[dire spoke]

<_ < ye

need to equip shit one pack before big pull

I always forget that

[marble hemlock]

and at that point y ou already lost more dps on that trash pull than you will gain on that boss 😃

[dire spoke]

[marble hemlock]

rip me, i have to leave the house today ><

goddamn reallife responsibilities, why do they exist 😦

but yeah, that whole on-use thing is actually great as assa, since you barely play on-use stuff anyway

[dire spoke]

_> meh

So according to sim, gnawed favors short fights

0.1% at 3min
0.3% at 5min
0.3% at 6min
0.4% at 7min

^ these are dps margins

[jovial kite]

isnt it obvious though 🤔

[dire spoke]

is it?

[jovial kite]

gnawed thumb ring

?

ofc

[dire spoke]

in each scenario it has less output, but also the APL treats it incorrect

[jovial kite]

if you shorten the fight enough even horn of valor becomes valuable

[dire spoke]

maybe I just sell it and pretend I never had it

<_ <

[fiery nest]

i swapped a 4 ilvl drop to get 7/7 MA and i cant beat my old parses

[lone junco]

Remember. Gnawed is dumb in apl anyway. It burns at 3mins without the vanish.

[fiery nest]

kill times OP

[zealous dew]

7/7 MA 😄

7/7 pk ftw

[fiery nest]

lul

[dire spoke]

yes, that's why I don't know what to use noobe

I don't know the real dps value of gnawed

[fiery nest]

dropped below 1k ilvl arti

[jovial kite]

its great for sub 3 min fights

and its great for kinga

[fiery nest]

feels bad

[dire spoke]

yeah I guess

[jovial kite]

what more do you need to know 😄

[lone junco]

The log review website sums up bonus from ring.

I think.

[dire spoke]

all this suffering

only because weak is to lazy

[jovial kite]

@warm parcel

[lone junco]

I bound mine to vanish.

[fiery nest]

why not vendetta

[lone junco]

Goes off at 5 sec and 4min5 sec

It's ready at 3mins and sits.

[fiery nest]

u lose a use

oh

[jovial kite]

5% is pretty good on execute even without vanish

[lone junco]

You only lose a use at 6min.

[fiery nest]

yea so every boss that matters

[lone junco]

Nothing matters.

[fiery nest]

true

[lone junco]

Don't kid yourself.

[fiery nest]

very true

[lone junco]

I've gone to bed at 930p for the past 2 months. Instead of 2am.

That's been nice.

[fiery nest]

well its 5am here

yikers

[dire spoke]

[fiery nest]

guess i sleep

interesting that vanish thumb ring bind tho noobe

i may try it

all our kill times are fucked anyway

why not

[lone junco]

It does dick for bleed. But for shoulder bracer builds it's ok.

[fiery nest]

yeah thats what im wearing cause im lazy and we're just farming mounts

[lone junco]

I have a bind for the ring alone. So if there is a desync for some reason you can mash it with vendetta.

[fiery nest]

true

its best to use for last 8sec of KB anyway

in theory

[jovial kite]

doubtful

[fiery nest]

oh 5% more dmg during tb kb is doubtful?

ok

[lone junco]

At the open it would be best before the tb.

[fiery nest]

not talking about opener

[lone junco]

Midblock. I just want the 3env.

But I'm lazy and stuck it to vanish so I never forget it.

[fiery nest]

ye

slagg won't reply btw

just likes to say things that make him look smart

[jovial kite]

rofl

i mean

you didnt specify not talking about opener

so you just like to say things that make you look smart

[fiery nest]

haha

touche 👌

[warm parcel]

[lone junco]

How are the robots coming?

[jovial kite]

working

and i have nothing to do

[lone junco]

Good. I guess

[jovial kite]

except spend my fucking fridayevening in eveningshift

[warm parcel]

@jovial kite

[jovial kite]

wut

zempai called you lazy

so i pinged you

[warm parcel]

And you ping me

[jovial kite]

[lone junco]

was an unnecessary pong about use of thumb ring in apl.

[warm parcel]

Well guess what

My work day just ended

So have fun

[jovial kite]

keepyourself simulated

[marble hemlock]

rewriting apl isnt work?

Kappa

[jovial kite]

im still working for 4 hours -.-

[lone junco]

@zealous dew How are the 4rogs coming?

[zealous dew]

104-42-42

got a guid on kazzak for argus as well

all good!

[lone junco]

Based on what I saw on beta. It would be nice to get that Zap trinket at 110.

[zealous dew]

haven't checked that yet, just trying some classes for alts

[lone junco]

But anything fun gets nerfed. So prob not a big deal.

I like affliction. But I really don't like demons.

[zealous dew]

i like healing, more and more

[lone junco]

There is less comparison with logs as a healer.

[zealous dew]

then you join pugs and well

you just give up

[lone junco]

And the real god heals shine in m+

I hear hpal is getting smacked a few nerfs.

[zealous dew]

yeah m+ is so dam n stressful

not like SCK spam

[lone junco]

What's that

Monk kick.

[zealous dew]

monk ww

the spinshit

[lone junco]

I wanted to be moonkin/resto. But I cba to learn something new.

[zealous dew]

moonkin is lol

[lone junco]

I don't care about fun

[zealous dew]

and op as fuck

[lone junco]

Moonkin is shit in beta is all.

[zealous dew]

haven't tried it

[lone junco]

At least up to the point I stopped.

Aoe at like 2k.

Rogue pushing 6-8k

[zealous dew]

well CT 😃

[lone junco]

TBH it was the forms that bent my wiener.

So many fucking shift bars per spec.

Oh well. I should prob just cancel and end it with legion.

[zealous dew]

nah man

play rogue 😃

[lone junco]

Since argus wrap. I've been going to the gym. And eating healthy and spending more time with wife.

I'll be bored to fuck of RL by aug tho.

[zealous dew]

you can still do both

no need to sink 10h day into wow

[lone junco]

Yeah. The only way that works for me is a zero alt policy

I didn't alt legion until mid antorus.

Now I remember why I squashed the moonkin dream. Too many gear sets.

Would play too much.

I could never just skip feral or bear. So forever farm.

[zealous dew]

hehe

[ashen sphinx]

https://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/simulator/report/b1987be79b18461f93cc652e3dab6169

someone please halp

[keen inlet]

Do you have logs?

Or a specific question?

an AMR sim (or even a raidbots sim) without any context whatsoever doesn't give us much to go on

[arctic venture]

!trinkets

[chrome tusk]

List of trinkets for each spec: http://tc.ravenholdt.net/

[arctic venture]

!trinket

[hoary copper]

Also Dont use AMR to sim @ashen sphinx

use Raidbots.com

[ashen sphinx]

Firstly, thank you all. i pull 1.5.-1.7m on H antorous, I feel like i should be doing more dps. sorry I am not familiar with simming other than with raidb ots

Ill pull more stats before I asked any further

[hoary copper]

If you can get us logs that would help determine what is going on

What ilvl?

[brazen bronze]

what realm are you on? trying to look up your toon

[ashen sphinx]

Ilvl 951

Kel thuzzad US

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/character/15184449/17#difficulty=4&class=Rogue&spec=Assassination&metric=dps&boss=2076

[hoary copper]

This is your sim https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/fHY91JYdbt9iPScnorKofw 1.6 ish

I'll try to look at log (looking at Var), but Im on mobile so I can prob only get the big obvious stuff

Opener already looks wrong, looks like you opened with mut garrote tb rupture mut envenom kb...

Garrote - Mut - Rupture - Vendetta - tb - kb - vanish rupture (without shoulders)

Legs are also not great

[wise frigate]

Feel like 2/2 might not also be optimal. Unless you just don't have 4 piece T21 yet.

[hoary copper]

He doesnt

[ashen sphinx]

I do have 4p T21

[wise frigate]

Have you tried running a sim with that over 2/2?

[jovial kite]

everyone to offtopic

[wise frigate]

I'm mostly just curious if that's your optimal setup.

[jovial kite]

we are awaiting the recarnation of our messiah

lord and saviour baethron

[ashen sphinx]

according to raidbots

[lean hill]

You're not using potions, that will help

[ashen sphinx]

ah, but of course

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2gPriQqptkVEUXdb1GnNWM

[wise frigate]

Oh you had 2/4 that whole time with bracers and boots? Lul

[ashen sphinx]

I dont think the armory had updated

[hoary copper]

I was looking at the var run where you didnt, could have been old

[ashen sphinx]

^^

[hoary copper]

Var is a better fight to look at since its an ez fight

[ashen sphinx]

I guess what I was wondering if my sim'd dps is on par with my ilvl? I know maybe my skill level may not be 😉

as far as average ilvl for sin rogues

[keen inlet]

That seems about right. But I'm not really sure why you'd care?

It's more important to compare logs with sims

[hoary copper]

Work on your opener and read the

!singuide

[chrome tusk]

Assassination guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/

[hoary copper]

good bot

[ashen sphinx]

ty^

[lone junco]

@ashen sphinx for reference. My 954 ilvl shoulder bracer would be around 1.9m. My exang is 954 at 2.05m.

Once you import your gear to include crucible it will go up some. And the 1000ilvl trinket is a large bump. (I didn't check but assume you don't have it)

I think my best shoulder bracer is 963 at 1.95m

[hoary copper]

I'm 955 poison shoulder bracer and sim 1.8 but I dont do that of course for example. I have some gearing to refine since I went up in ilvl

[ashen sphinx]

starting to make more sense, never took the time to optimize. thanks again!

[wise frigate]

Oh damn I'm surprised how close my 2/4 is with how shit my T20 is.

2.146 vs 2.194 for my Sin gear.

[hoary copper]

is that with 2p and without?

[lone junco]

Yeah. 2p20 is strong. Energy wise

[wise frigate]

Yeah my standard mantle/bracers is 2.194.

2/4 is 2.146

[hoary copper]

Just shows how strong t20 is

[wise frigate]

That's with 915 and 920 T20

Only drops me to 965.

From 970.

[hoary copper]

if TOS wasnt so bad, I'd go back for T20 just for shits and giggles

pugging TOS is cancer

[wise frigate]

Yeah ToS is such a shitshow now.

Even heroic is sooooo bad.

[hoary copper]

Heroic was always bad

[wise frigate]

It got worse though.

Everybody who knows the fights hates that place and doesn't want to go back. So anyone who pugs it is either clueless or dumb.

[hoary copper]

LFR is cancer, I did it on my boosted DK just to see where it was (boosted gear is crap) and standing in swirls still a problem and dps checks are a problem

[wise frigate]

Eyup. Cause everyone boosts and just immediately goes into ToS LFR.

I try to just wait on LFR till I hit 890 on new alts.

Avoid that shitshow.

[hoary copper]

The gear they give is absolute crap plus adding in cluelessness makes a fun time

I have gone back on rogue just to be a LFR hero

[wise frigate]

I only go back into ToS if I get a mage tower skin and the recolor matches a mog.

Or on my HPal cause Sea Star.

[hoary copper]

Yea I have pugged heroic for Sea Star, havent seen a decent one drop yet tho

[wise frigate]

Haven't seen one drop on her so far. Tbf I've only killed her 3 times.

Fucking guildy who everyone hates has a 945 socketed one from fucking normal.

[hoary copper]

I have the LFR one, did heroic like 15+ times and havent. saw a 940 drop for someone else

[wise frigate]

And any time I mention it he links it.

Same thing with his Aman'thul's.

[hoary copper]

wow thats a lot of good rng

[wise frigate]

Oh yeah his RNG is ridiculous.

Game must feel bad because he's honestly (pls no ban I'm not trying to insult he actually is he's admitted it) autistic. Which doesn't make it any easier to deal with him.

clenches butthole

[hoary copper]

inb4ban

[vestal wren]

we all have this one lucky bastard who gets gear fast etc...

it does not impact you so 🤷 why bother

[hoary copper]

Thats just crazy tho. I did see someone with a 970 sea star once. Can you imagine?!

[lean hill]

It makes us sad fuu

Makes you wish there was BLP on forges

[lone junco]

@hoary copper pretty sure my hpal got a 930 sea star. I was like "is this good"

[hoary copper]

yea better than just about anything else

I should work on mine I spose. Still using 4p/2p on him too. Just dont tend to get crit upgrades which I could kinda use.

[viscid helm]

tried how?

[strange python]

you can't queue for random heroic dungeons but you can queue for specific ones

[lone junco]

Mark for Death spam on small trash adds, recasting CT has seemed pretty good.

we stupidly pulled 8-15mobs at a time. and it was better than hitting envenom imo.

[shrewd night]

Define success

Tuning hasnt even been done

[lone junco]

anyone used the poison bomb potions yet?

[eager hearth]

Still going on about tuning lmao

[hoary copper]

Though tuning may not have gone through, you can tell mechanically if something will work or not

[lone junco]

@uncut cloak so far CT seems very good.

[civic palm]

What Poison Bomb potion? @lone junco

[lone junco]

Instead of Prolonged power. It has a chance to poison bomb.

Or so I recall.

[civic palm]

Gimme a screenshot because they don't exist anymore unless they were put back in after the most recent build.

They were changed into some physical damage potion.

Yeah they were changed since my screenshots showing them being completely broken.

Been over a week IIRC.

[lone junco]

My rogue is alch and inscription, so i like to plan ahead for a gold rush.

I'm very broke and would love to gouge some raiders

[civic palm]

This being the previous potion - https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/124169701881282560/445719123058491412/unknown.png

[lone junco]

@civic palm so that potion is dead? Or just nerfed

[civic palm]

Dead entirely IIRC.

It's not poison damage anymore (it's physical), but operates the same way (procs on abilities/damage).

Can probably still crit, but we lose the Mastery scaling.

Mmm, dunno, it was very very good, and would probably have lead to a scaling problem.

What is the Fury mastery?

mmmk

Wasn't sure if someone was still on +Physical.

[dire spoke]

[spare cloud]

ded specc

[marble hemlock]

ded class

[exotic glen]

ded gaem

[marble hemlock]

ded medium

[exotic glen]

selithan

[plain thistle]

[civic palm]

@lone junco Should be noted that the replacement potion has had it's damage increased from the poison potion, so it still might be good for us -

[quick ice]

let me get this right. the potion causes to explode hot blood over our enemies with our melee attacks?

because that's A) horrifying and B) very metal

[civic palm]

Extremely metal.

They're probably getting hurt by their own blood.

[quick ice]

I hope so

[civic palm]

This though -

[quick ice]

oh damn that's actually pretty big

[exotic glen]

whats base agi on beta?

when people were raidtesting

i didnt look myself

[civic palm]

atm I have ...

4232 @ iLevel 325

1706 @ level 120, naked even

[quick ice]

so its a bit over 20% boost

that's solid

[civic palm]

Quite.

[barren lark]

what percent envenom uptime is considered good?

[lone junco]

@barren lark target is 100% during kb. but 85 overall isnt horrible.

[grim skiff]

how good is 4 set for us?

[zealous dew]

very good

[stark heart]

Too good to not get it

[sharp viper]

so good that having 4 energy would have been too broken

[runic basin]

Good morning i have a question about my stats and gear

I have 197.75 Mastery, 10.24Vers, 3,99Haste, 36,13Crit.. I have become yesterday the waist from Varimatras in 980..Raidbots tell me that is the best item i can chose..but the stat weights say that mastery push my dmg more than crit..i have also a 965 waist with 1k mastery..so i have 203% mastery..now the question..what is better? ..

i can post u my simc if u want

https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/character/thrall/ziruj - Arsenal Link

[warm parcel]

None of that info is relevant when you already knwo the answer

you simmed it

[runic basin]

but mastery is the best stat and isn't 36% crit not to much? and 194 mastery to low

[warm parcel]

according to what exactly

[wise frigate]

Feelycraft

[fiery nest]

Simcraft>feelycraft

Imagine typing that much just to hear "trust the sim"

[slow mortar]

does all of CT get buffed by nightstalker?

[warm parcel]

ye

[stark heart]

yes it is

[sharp viper]

both instances or just the initial aoe?

[marble hemlock]

both

[still stump]

is kil jadens viable for m+ aoe

[marble hemlock]

no

[halcyon quarry]

What is stronget ST dps? Bleed Build or Poison build

[warm parcel]

what sims higher

[halcyon quarry]

Have not checked

will do now

[warm parcel]

likely poison one.
Bleed requires really spefici setup

[halcyon quarry]

I Have been told alacrity is better then toxic blade but toxic blade is coming out better

[warm parcel]

uhh

alacrity only wins in memepoints

[halcyon quarry]

So its no good

[sharp viper]

i see you interacted with flowi

[halcyon quarry]

i have

[dire spoke]

alac is fine with enough crit :^D

[marble hemlock]

😃

[dire spoke]

getting removed from nm pug because resetting cooldowns with announcing it in raidchat

nice hero complex

[marble hemlock]

maybe you sucked?

zempai not good enough for normal pug confirmed

im disappointed

no custom emote for a situation like this?

[dire spoke]

you're not worth it

[marble hemlock]

;_;

pretty accurate

[halcyon quarry]

are the leg boots any good

[shrewd night]

Sim it

[marble hemlock]

boots are one of the 4 legendaries that are pretty high up in value. how good they are specifically for you is something you have to sim

[fallow estuary]

I really wonder how much dps i'd loose speccing into alacrity 🤔

Am on mobile so i cant sim :c

[marble hemlock]

sim will try to lie to you

and say you lose

[dire spoke]

look at her, speaking down to us

[dark marlin]

is master assassin any good on beta? i feel like subterfuge is still best

[strange python]

nope

[oak ermine]

got any tips for a new assasination rogue?

[supple hearth]

[spare cloud]

[dire spoke]

aww snap

I always miss the easy questions

[strange python]

What guide

I’m on mobile I don’t see any pinned

Top right, click the three dots

[safe matrix]

Or if you're using the app, just tap #assassination at the top

[dire spoke]

or go to resources

or visit ravenholdt

you could setup a bot that posts the guide every 5min, people would still ask where to find it

[spare cloud]

You could post them the guide when they join the server

they would still ask where to find it

Oh wait thats already done

[strange python]

didnt see any guide when i joined the server

[spare cloud]

the guides are literally the first links in the resources and faq section

[echo estuary]

May i suggest trying runescape, TOPH coming in hot with a guide any day now

[fast nacelle]

[fervent beacon]

[humble cape]

Is sin rogue best spec

[fervent beacon]

It's commonly used for progression dues to execute and better T21

[steep obsidian]

All 3 specs are viable and have str and weaknesses sin is the dominant spec for raids rn

[still stump]

is alacrity worth picking up for M+ for more fan of knives

[strange python]

how does alacrity get you more fan of knives

[still stump]

more haste = more energy = more fan of knives spam

[viscid helm]

have you ever played sin?

[strange python]

with tier 21 and multiple ruptures you hardly ever have to think about energy in m+

fan of knives practically refunds itself

[still stump]

i dont have tier 21 set =.=

only 2 set

i use leggo cape and empty crown for m+ cause those are the best leggos i have

if i dont use them i can have the 4 set though

would that be better?

i dont think so, i think cape might be really useful

[marble hemlock]

what other legendaries do you have?

you should definitely aim to get t21 4pc for m+, its one of the most important "requirements" to reaching your dps potential

best legendaries for aoe would be shoulders+bracers, if any one of those is missing the cloak serves as a nice interim-option but overall its quite far behind those 2

[vital flare]

Hey guys, just now coming back from a one-two month break, whats the best setup for poison build right now?

[hoary copper]

!singuide

[chrome tusk]

Assassination guide: http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/

[hoary copper]

read that

[dire spoke]

👀

[orchid cove]

i’m new here and i have a question, How do i play assasination?

[civic palm]

SIN GUIDE HERE--> http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/ <--SIN GUIDE HERE

SIN GUIDE HERE--> http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/ <--SIN GUIDE HERE

and no, I think you are right o _o

[orchid cove]

what do you mean, i obviously am winkwink* @gusty kestrel

[dark crag]

at 3 cp, mut or fok

[plain thistle]

mut, garrote, TB or KB

if you have 5 or more PK traits, you can FoK

[dark crag]

i should stop getting carried by pb and read the traits

[civic palm]

Just keep MUTing.

[dire spoke]

I like how other rogues get pissed off, when they don't wear mantle and you recommend subt instead of ns

_>

[civic palm]

O _O

[dire spoke]

always looking at rogs in pugs, iz funn

[dark crag]

looking at everyone is fun

[civic palm]

BELIEVE IN THE METERS

[dark crag]

as assa? blasphemic

i am looking at assa bfa talents and i can imagine the talk the blizz devs had

lets scale bleeds with haste. good idea but do you know what we also do? what? remove alacrity from assa! hahahaha

[civic palm]

Would be bad giving so much flat haste.

The scaling from the stat. is already rather poor and feels like it's intended as a stop gap for the dramatic loss in NRG regen from losing T21.

If we could get so much haste I would think that they would have to take power from elsewhere to compensate, and taking it from Mastery feels baaaaaad.

[dark crag]

if it was still in the 90 row it would be

[dire spoke]

just don't install prepatch 🤷🏻

[civic palm]

hahaha

[dark crag]

so sad that blizz can't work on talent rows and not fucking shit up like talent rows only working st and being completely useless in aoe like subs first row

[viscid helm]

They didn't "fuck shit up"

it's literally the way they wanted it

you have rows that are purely ST

and some that are AoE

it's how it's meant to be.

[civic palm]

Yeah they'd rather give you flavors or ST and AoE.

Rather than potentially make 1 tier completely useless due to boss designs.

This is all a conspiracy to make Inscription worth it.

[dark crag]

they meant they don't want to decide in a row st vs aoe vs something else, but not working at all is just stupid

[civic palm]

What?

[viscid helm]

That sentence

[civic palm]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[dire spoke]

[civic palm]

That might be even worse.

But the code for it... 👌

[dark crag]

look at bfa assa 90 row only one talent doesn't work at all in aoe the rest is useable

[civic palm]

None of that works in AoE...

[dark crag]

toxic blade and exsang are useable against your maintarget

[civic palm]

Are you high?

[dire spoke]

r u drunk?

[civic palm]

That's not AoE...

[dark crag]

but you can use them

[viscid helm]

you wouldnt press TB/Exsang on AoE

either

[civic palm]

I can press any button I fucking want.

Doesn't mean it's smart.

[dark crag]

subs first row does nothing when spaming shurken storm

[viscid helm]

You spam fok and CT

neither does TB/exsang

[civic palm]

S H O C K E R

[viscid helm]

I dont see the problem

[dire spoke]

are we cross comparing spec talent rows now

[civic palm]

I can see EX being used on the boss in AoE/Cleave.

Your NRG regen gets up there on 3-4 targets, allowing for some flexibility.

But will that situation ever exist, doubt it.

[viscid helm]

ye sure if you keep bleeds up on that boss target sure, but i thought we were just talking random AoE

[civic palm]

Random AoE sure, no fucking use.

Same as TB and VR.

Don't press those buttons when you are facing 4+ targets.

and the with +AGI from RUP trait EX might be a DPS loss considering target#.

Naaahhhhh

Made something else sure, reverted I dunno.

[dark crag]

and what speaks against rupturing main target pressing exsang for faster reg and spaming fok+ct? numbers will decide but exsang is useable in aoe

[viscid helm]

It isnt

[civic palm]

Nah.

You don't have time for that shit.

As much as people wanna say there's nothing to do, there are plates to be juggled.

[viscid helm]

The amount of dmg CT does is stupid

[civic palm]

Yeah.

NerfWhenO _O

NeverBTW

[viscid helm]

it's 1%? loss weaving in CT on ST with MP

with EP i'd assume its an actual DPS increase

on ST

to weave in CT

[civic palm]

EP is very very good atm IMO.

[lone junco]

CT dream right now.

[civic palm]

If anyone has reservations against playing "bleed" in BFA you need to shed that shit, doesn't exist anymore.

[lone junco]

I was NS mark. Really nice.

Had a massive pack. Threw in a vanish CT.

[civic palm]

I still don't wanna play DS O _O

[viscid helm]

mfd

[civic palm]

Probably better in mass AoE situations though.

[dark crag]

all i say is that it is better to have atleast a minimum of useability than none at all

[civic palm]

There's usability everywhere, just don't use a car to drive a nail.

Makes no sense.

[lone junco]

There are a few bosses with shitty trash. Mark. Env boss. Or mark Ct.

[civic palm]

Yeah if there are repeated targets, MFD is 👌

[lone junco]

Ye

I need to get better at mouseover mark.

[civic palm]

and even if you are not spamming CT with MFD charges it's more than likely worth it.

[lone junco]

As outlaw. I would bang on the trash with BF up.

Open mark rupture.

[dark crag]

what if ct gets kicked into the trashcan?

[civic palm]

I do not think that it will.

[lone junco]

Play Outlaw.

[viscid helm]

what if rogue gets deleted?

we can play the IF game as much as we want

🤷

[civic palm]

I think the Blizzard wants to make it obvious when you should be using this or that for situation X or Y.

[lone junco]

I tried some sub cleave. Couldn't beat my sin aoe at all.

So that's a nice place to be.

[civic palm]

Even just FoK with MP is a rather large amount of damage.

[viscid helm]

Subs just crippled with no artifact traits.

and outlaw AoE is bad

[civic palm]

Feels and is, unless it's a pack of low HP adds.

[viscid helm]

i wanted to kms playing sub on test

[civic palm]

noty

[viscid helm]

after i was at 0 dance charges

with BS and short NB

[lone junco]

Sb with symbol dance tornado. Probably the only alignment that's not shit.

[viscid helm]

literally

kms

[dire spoke]

sub will be fotm most likely

8D

[viscid helm]

sure give it ES back

[lone junco]

20k evisc compared to my 12k env ish.

But that CT dream.

[civic palm]

I ENV for 25k.

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[lone junco]

115

[civic palm]

Takes spamming though.

[viscid helm]

which one

i have Looknohands and Footpedal

[dark crag]

isn't assas main damage white hits in beta?

[viscid helm]

no

[civic palm]

No.

[dire spoke]

it's ~3

[civic palm]

It can be a lot on shorter Single Target fights.

But those numbers reeeeally don't matter.

[dire spoke]

just give sub a multistrike talent

[lone junco]

Is that double mut trait still good?

[civic palm]

No idea frankly.

Getting to 11 is fucking annoying.

and then 12, and then 13.

[lone junco]

I have 2x cyclone Was hoping it would add up. It's prob shit.

[civic palm]

I think Rupture is probably better.

200+ AGI per rupture target adds up when you "only" have 4k.

heh

[lone junco]

The prydaz trait is really really weak. Does it scale with neck ilvl?

[civic palm]

Not enough.

I think the traits scale with item level of the item, not with neck.

Otherwise low level items would be just as good outside of stats on the item and armor.

[lone junco]

I 2boxxed for a while. Priest was named Toeheals.

I used my foot on the space bar to run a macro.

[civic palm]

mmmmm, anyone else see that /follow doesn't work in PVP templated areas anymore? O _O

Will require mirrored inputs, O_O, enjoy.

[dark crag]

anti multiboxer?

[civic palm]

Entirely.

Won't stop them, but it will be annoying to desync.

[viscid helm]

@gusty kestrel Consolegame

[dark crag]

i hope i can hunt multiboxer again, was a nice time with sub cloak burst in legion

[civic palm]

Also the Shield @ 4+ targets trait kinda craps on them, dunno if it scales though.

[dark crag]

does that change with 120 and gear? that is from a normal raid test and the fight was a little over 4 min. the char was 110 without the neck

max env hits were somehing around 24k

[civic palm]

a Dungeon - https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/316923750073499648/448708367905456128/unknown.png

[dire spoke]

yeah, ~3

[civic palm]

Should be around there, yeah.

[dire spoke]

weapon ilvl need

l u l

[civic palm]

Can't TF thank GOD.

Might get you to 118 or so.

[dark crag]

980 shit relics are stored and ready to be inserted gently

for both assa and sub, outlaw gets only 960-970 ones

[civic palm]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[halcyon quarry]

Fml

any chance someone can hop into discord channel and help me out

i need advice

[dire spoke]

[halcyon quarry]

yea? nah?

[dire spoke]

can't it be answered by a simulation, the guide, herodamage, kistler's tipps, warcraftlogs or a combination of these?

[halcyon quarry]

I Am just confused but alright nvm then

[civic palm]

Let me get my fucking mind reading cap real fast.

[dire spoke]

he meant voice

[civic palm]

I only do advice over text, so I have proof.

[dire spoke]

I only join voice if you accept my privacy policy

[orchid cove]

arent we losing our artifacts b4 we level anyway or am i understanding this wrong

[dire spoke]

S P O I L E R S

[orchid cove]

okok

[civic palm]

You effectively lose it, yeah.

[dire spoke]

shit dude ... I keep getting the 138 wow error

_>

oh no wait now it's 132

I dun wanna reset my ui folder

<_ <

[prime void]

Just uninstall zempai

Cleanse yourself of this shit game

[manic vigil]

[lone junco]

@prime void praise be

https://giphy.com/gifs/funny-applause-clapping-doUu2ByZDbPYQ

[steep obsidian]

[steep obsidian]

ded gaem

ded channel

[viscid helm]

[brisk forge]

Lol so bitter

[peak escarp]

Would u guys delay KB if vendetta and TB and pot coming in 30secs?

[viscid helm]

that's a joke right?

KB has like 33s CD

[brisk forge]

No need for being a jerk about it

[peak escarp]

And ur using boots

[stark heart]

it's Flowi, he doesn't know any better

[peak escarp]

Well with boots vendetta will be up sooner

[stark heart]

KB has effective CD of around 30-35 so no reason to delay in case described

I don't think it's even real to have situation like you painted with boots

[peak escarp]

With lego boots being used how long would u delay it

[stark heart]

I have every other TB lining up with Vendetta

[peak escarp]

For vendetta

[stark heart]

dunno, every second waiting of KB Is bad

maybe if ven is 10 seconds away

I can't even recall clearly situation when I delay KB apart from maybe to use it with TB but it's so rare as well

[peak escarp]

So its not worth to delay if longer

[stark heart]

I dunno if it's worth I am saying I can't recall situation when I am facing in-game question you are asking

[peak escarp]

I understand

Thank you anyway

[valid skiff]

do u envenom first and then KB or KB and then evenom?

out of vendetta

[halcyon quarry]

KB Then Envenom

From what ive heard

Envenom Increases KB's DPS

So you KB Then Evenom

[viscid helm]

depends

[orchid cove]

there’s no better choice i thought u just needed the buff up for the whole duration ?

[stark heart]

Ideally Envenom - kb

[spare cloud]

could miss out on ticks in between the first gcd

so before should be just flat out better

[lofty mantle]

hi everyone noob rogue here

[spare cloud]

hi noob rogue

[lofty mantle]

im reading the website super intense like LOL i just hit 920 yesterday and i finally get to do the normal raid with my guild today so im trying to be the best rogue i can and its a struggle

[halcyon quarry]

How does Rogue ;ppl om BFA?

[spare cloud]

Slow

[marble hemlock]

id like to call it "turtley"

[halcyon quarry]

LOOK* not ;ppl

[viscid helm]

bad

[halcyon quarry]

Not good on DPS?

[viscid helm]

like everything else

[spare cloud]

balancing is not done yet

so dps isn't really an issue atm

[marble hemlock]

DPS is easily balanced, making the gameplay less turtle-y is quite a bit harder

[spare cloud]

just add 3 buttons that don't use energy and arent on a gcd

[marble hemlock]

😃

[exotic glen]

😃

[spare cloud]

😄

Hm.

[steep obsidian]

😃

[ornate spire]

What legos should we be using for keys?

[steep obsidian]

shoulders/bracers/boots

if vanish isnt up for a long time when i pull a boss i use boots bracers but its really up to you and the pulls you do

you can easily swap out legos per pull even to cloak if you want to for a big aoe pull

[strange python]

is this the right place to ask for a log analysis on my rogue (sin)?

Would love some help pinpointing where I could improve

[exotic glen]

there probably isnt a better place so

[strange python]

Oh great!

This is a vari log from tonight. I only raid heroic.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/dNWzLrpQRj27FC8Y#fight=21

Before this raid, i managed to get the bracers so was running boots/bracers. didn't really see much difference compared to last week where I ran boots/shoulders. So curious to see if it's a playstyle thing.

I did manage to replace a 910 stat stick with the argus trinket today, but won't be able to test that till next week.

[exotic glen]

try simming your 3 different combinations to see which builds does most dps, shoulders/bracer, shoulders/boots and boots/bracers

[strange python]

I'll give that a go now.

do you think there's anything off from my rotation/debuff uptimes etc?

[exotic glen]

mmmm 95%+ uptime on both bleeds

92% sot

you cast toxic blade > vendetta in the opener, do the reverse

[strange python]

oh good pickup

[exotic glen]

you also need to use vanish earlier in the fight, your first one was 45 seconds into the fight, you can refer to the opener & rotation part in the guide http://www.ravenholdt.net/assassination-guide/

[strange python]

great! so it's more optimisation than a big glaring error?

[exotic glen]

wcl isnt working properly for me atm, so i cant see any resource management

you do a lot of small mistakes i guess

sim your gear and fix the rotational issues i said and you should come back with some new logs next week

[strange python]

thanks mate! appreciate the help

[exotic glen]

np

[strange python]

Never mutilate at 4cp, you did that once or twice.

[viscid helm]

28 CP wasted

so

[strange python]

I see 2 cp wasted

that's from seal fate, which i thought was fine

the 28

[viscid helm]

why?

[strange python]

Unless you count seal fate

i could be wrong, but lets say I have 3 CP, mut crits on both and it over-caps by 1, but nothing was done incorrect from a rotational standpoint

is that right?

[warm parcel]

thats 2 cp loss

not 1

[strange python]

oh right, sorry 2

[turbid harbor]

if your garrote, tb and kb are all on cd then it's correct to mutilate at 3cp

[strange python]

In that scenario you wasted 2 cp via seal fate and there is nothing you can do unless something else is off cd to generate cp

does 28 lost combo points from seal fate seem oddly high?

I do try and use garrote, KB, TB to get that last 1 or 2

[steep obsidian]

check the resources tab in the log and you can see each time you capped cp and what you cast

[strange python]

yeah seems like I screwed up a mutilate and tb, rest from seal fate which in most cases is unavoidable.

A little bit, but it depends on kill time

[steep obsidian]

acutlaly one mut at 5cp too

[strange python]

maybe im missing something, under resources it says 2 wasted from Mutilate

[steep obsidian]

that should show you how to check it

sorry about gif

[strange python]

ahhh got it

thanks mate!

super helpful

[ornate spire]

Sometimes I press buttons and out pops DPS

It's nice

Wait a minute.... @strange python Can you tell Clirael Soggy says hi?

[strange python]

i sure can

[ornate spire]

He's an old guildie of mine, I didn't realise he moved from AT to Barth 😦

[strange python]

hahaha i'll pass that on for sure.

[ornate spire]

He'll probably hate it, he'll know who I am, 😉

Oh, I wasted a whole combo point on my last Vari kill woops 😦

[waxen socket]

Hey there I would like to ask a question regarding Surge of Toxins

When u got all your spells on cd and ur basically doing a simple rotation

is it better to pool energy while using envenom just before surge runs out?

or should u spam envenom asap

[spare cloud]

pool for envenom buff

[stark heart]

don't focus on SoT apart from KB

[spare cloud]

is kept up passively while focusing on envenom/4pc anyways

[waxen socket]

what is KB?

oh kingsbane

ok ok

Thanks!

[primal tangle]

dw

belonging to multiple discords

theres 1000s of acronyms

ss in subtlety means 3 things

[echo estuary]

Schutzstaffel?

[primal tangle]

😃

[sharp viper]

shadowstorm shurikenstep

[steep obsidian]

perleman not happy until he triggers at least a few people

[echo estuary]

that's the only acronym for SS we got taught in school =/

[keen inlet]

they don't teach sub in school

sub is an advanced spec

for the coolkids

happy sunday everyone 🐦

[primal tangle]

🐦

[exotic glen]

🐦

[shrewd night]

[marble hemlock]

🦆

[safe matrix]

🐤

[exotic glen]

Bored, need some chatting

What are my stat weights

Someone help pls

Gotta be agile

No strength?

[lone junco]

@exotic glen 240m/180v/175agi/130c/4h

8T,20s. You're welcome.

[marble hemlock]

dump charisma/luck

get 12str for the start, go get the belt of frost giant strength asap to make up for it later

[stark heart]

You just call shadowstrike - ambush and shuriken storm - fok and it becomes EZ for sub

[marble hemlock]

yep

still got sinister strike though 🤔

[stark heart]

That's another spec tho

[marble hemlock]

honestly

its quite peculiar how many of our spells can be abbreviated with "SS"

[exotic glen]

blizz must like alliterations

[marble hemlock]

Blizz probably doesnt like Rogues, so they made every second ability something that can be called "SS"

[keen inlet]

yw

[civic palm]

O _O

[lone junco]

yay.

[stark heart]

yikes

[strange python]

do you guys have problems with loggin in and empty realm screen without characters?

[spare cloud]

You could also go 94 Magic and 90 range

[supple hearth]

@strange python no

[vestal folio]

what's better? 910 eye of command or 945 seeping scourgewing?

[hoary copper]

SIM it

[marble hemlock]

sim it

HA, I WAS FIRST

[hoary copper]

Lies

[vestal folio]

https://i.gyazo.com/8981cc214befa578058c10780398ca0f.png

[marble hemlock]

http://puu.sh/Au3u6/b6f5be7e5a.png

[hoary copper]

I would guess eoc as scourgewing isn't great but sim

[vestal folio]

bruen won

[marble hemlock]

says who?

[vestal folio]

2v1

[hoary copper]

Both our screenshots

[vestal folio]

[marble hemlock]

🤔

lets call it a draw?

[hoary copper]

Nope

[marble hemlock]

unlucky

[plain thistle]

guys, we have emotes for that question

use it

[hoary copper]

I did

[marble hemlock]

i like the social interaction

makes me feel like i have friends

[hoary copper]

Jhon is as slow as Seliathan

[plain thistle]

NNONO you cant react with the emote, too small

[marble hemlock]

rude

[hoary copper]

Size queen

[marble hemlock]

do i sinister strike again when im at 4 combopoints?

[exotic glen]

no, you backstab

[marble hemlock]

assa doesnt have backstab

[viscid helm]

dont tell me what i can and cannot do

[exotic glen]

just stab them from the back

??

[marble hemlock]

)=

[unkempt osprey]

So i under stand haste is our worst but how much haste should i keep before going under?

im at 2.4k haste

[viscid helm]

[unkempt osprey]

just thinking of energy regin

[viscid helm]

you should aim at 0

[unkempt osprey]

Bet

ty

[marble hemlock]

the only haste you should have is from legendaries and maybe the set-gloves

[supple hearth]

@unkempt osprey you have venemous wounds for energy regen

[unkempt osprey]

oh, i need to do more research on my shit, im new to rogue, only 904 ilvl

just trying to figure it all out, thank you

[exotic glen]

just read the guide in the header, if you havent

[marble hemlock]

its very hard to make assumptions about gear on those itemlevels, so id suggest to just read the guide and sim yourself 😉

[unkempt osprey]

Yeah, ive read the guide for the most part, but mainly to figure out my rotation and what else i need, not much on what each ability does

[marble hemlock]

mkay, just play around with teh spec a little, its fairly easy to get into i think

its mostly just baout maintaining 2 debuffs and 1 buff

[strange python]

does anybody have a trinket list?
(BIS - Order)

[exotic glen]

herodamage.com

[civic palm]

Nice URL > _>

[exotic glen]

i didnt link it, just typed it

[civic palm]

Yeah.

Nice.

https://www.herodamage.com

I typed it out as well o _o

inb4 scammer website

[exotic glen]

you typed it with www. i guess

[civic palm]

and the http bit.

The important bit

https://herodamage.com

Works as well.

Though...

I've no idea if it will route to the HTTPS signed website, irresponsible otherwise.

[proud gust]

If my kingsbane is off CD and my refresh has like 12-14 seconds left should I refresh it before KB ? refresh during KB? or not refresh at all?

[exotic glen]

your refresh?

you mean rupture?

[civic palm]

You can Refresh Rupture during the tail of Kingsbane, as the duration on ENV and SoT are long enough to cover for you while your are generating CP to refresh Rupture before it falls off;

[proud gust]

lol yeah

[civic palm]

Do note that the Rupture from that will be shorter than normal though, due to you refreshing it @ ~2 seconds and not @ ~7 seconds.

Note that refreshing Rupture @ 3CP is perfectly fine as well.

[exotic glen]

what mizerok said

[proud gust]

cool thanks

[exotic glen]

you dont refresh rupture before kingsbane, because its not in pandemic range yet, and you really need to kingsbane on cooldown

[civic palm]

So refreshing before your burst window but at a lower CP won't cost you anything and will probably land you in the same place as refreshing later.

[severe dune]

best combo for leggos are ring and shoulders right?

[civic palm]

Depends on what you have, and what you are trying to do.

[exotic glen]

sim it, but most likely bracers / shoulders

and that