assassination

[mighty rapids]

Assa does good when theres an afk dps too

[polar sail]

15 caverns

[gusty pagoda]

windows + Shift + S thank me later

[polar sail]

xD

[royal lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/black-german-shepherd-black-gsd-dog-black-dog-german-shepherd-gif-3284437899351399991

[rare stone]

trying to decide to reset everything for sin w/ puzzlebox and have to deal with that, or just stay sub w/ guidon - where do we think the 2.5% buff for sub is to where sin is in raid/m+

like close to where it doesn't matter

or we think sin still better?

[gusty pagoda]

does sin have a haste breakpoint like sub does currently? Just wanting to make sure that this sim is correct and that not having the 700 haste that sub needs is the correct play here https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/4YhpDiZtvQzM9HGECJdB9V

[coral pivot]

It does not have a breakpoint, but BIS gear will put you around a certain amount of haste

!stat

!bis

[prisma monolith]

BiS lists are not helpful towards gearing yourself. In order for BiS items to truly be BiS, all items in the list have to be obtained at that level exactly, or else it doesn't make sense. Missing a socket for example would shift your stats slightly. On top of this, all stats being good on Assassination means there are currently over 500 "BiS" combinations that are within margin of error. You should always compare your gear through top gear or droptimizer instead.

Pre-raid or Pre-season BiS from world content is especially not helpful, and we do not maintain any lists of these types. These are absolute meaningless bait for gear that you will be replacing the moment the season comes out. Use Top Gear/Droptimizer to compare against your character.

[coral pivot]

Idk what the command is

!stats

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Stats
You will always get more accurate results using Raidbots Top Gear, as stat values will flucuate depending on gear and situation.

Agility (Item level) > Crit > Haste > Mastery >>>> Vers
The ratio between secondaries ends up being roughly 40/33/26/1

[coral pivot]

Found it

[gusty pagoda]

interesting

based on that then i should be using a haste flask to meet the haste cap because im currently at 40/18/32 and without taking gaze off i have no way to lower my mastery

[slim pebble]

Was this taken on a baked potato

[coral pivot]

They are NOT breakpoints. You should sim yourself to figure out which items are best

[gusty pagoda]

i figured as much, that's why i was just trying to get some clarification on whether the sim was actually correct or not. Mainly because you cant even trust sub sims currently so shits annoying to figure out

[coral pivot]

Assa and outlaw are pretty trustworthy.
Atm I would recommend trying to sim which flask to go for

[gusty pagoda]

sim said to stick with crit if you go up just a tad you can see the sim and can see why id question whether to trust it or not

[coral pivot]

Oh ye, I see now

Haste is also more of a ST stat than AOE stat. So there is an argument to have a bit more than dungeon slice suggests simply because you have AOE and ST

[gusty pagoda]

yeah it's tricky to try and figure out which will be better, only one way to figure this out lmao

[coral pivot]

For me at least, I personally wanted a bit more haste because it would help me on boss fights

Crit/haste is better for ST, crit/mast is better for AOE

[grim jay]

hu

I doubt you will really feel slight changes like that

[grim jay]

dungeonslice has an adequate distribution on target counts for gearing

[coral pivot]

Idk, I feel like I notice it. But it is a small difference

[agile trout]

are you guys using the pure st build for any of the bosses in voidspire?

[frosty cedar]

use the flask the sim would use, generally its crit flask everywhere

[frosty cedar]

yes, vorasius and alleria

on hc, salhadaar as well

[sick umbra]

How is sin in mythic plus and raids

[frosty cedar]

seems very good in both

[sick umbra]

Oh okay I’m currently sub but thought of giving sin a go

[rugged basalt]

Holy moly I got 140ms wifi now

May my parses change colours this week

[frosty cedar]

140ms.. ping? aint that super high?

[mortal crag]

Depends where you live

[rugged basalt]

i was 180 since feb playing na from eu

mobile hotspot

deranged nightmare

new place got decent wifi so um. normal moment

[frosty cedar]

bro why are you playing NA from EU

[rugged basalt]

it should be 100ish though...

work rotation

from asia live in us touring eu

[cold bay]

guys quick q

is assa gonna be the lowest performer most likely after this balance change?

[frosty cedar]

like, out of rogues? Where, m+, raid?

[cold bay]

coz im almost full BIS and i woke up to these balance changes and im kinda rethinking my existence

in raid

[frosty cedar]

I think well be best in raid imo

[cold bay]

really?

[frosty cedar]

yep

[cold bay]

after 7% aura buff on sub and 5% aura on outlaw?

[frosty cedar]

outlaw is nerfed overall by like 6%

sub gets 2.5% overall after nerfs to cloud etc

[cold bay]

really i thought the 5% aura would counteract cloud

interesting

[frosty cedar]

you can check the pins for the details in the spec channels

[quiet star]

It wouldn't be the lowest anymore

But overall it's not clear for m+ i guess. Outlaw is really good in phys comp.

Assa is a hybrid. So not that good from the buffs perspective.

[frosty cedar]

assa is giga op everywhere

[quiet star]

Hidden op that hidden so well

No one knows it

[cold bay]

yeah makes just sense

just read thru pins

tbh i think we are in a good spot its just there's so much padding in this raid thats why its kinda hidden op

on boss dmg we seem kinda broken but keep it hush hush

[frosty cedar]

I know it

[mortal crag]

Just don’t mention it much and it’ll stay that way

[grim jay]

thats like a 2% diff

on the buff gain

[reef flower]

Guys guys, we just gotta be 1st in every key and everyone will see sin rogue is meta, simple

[cold bay]

gl passing a demo lock in dps meters

[mortal crag]

Why didn’t they get touched

Crazy

[cold bay]

idk

[quiet star]

Maybe even less

[cold bay]

deffo should be next

but i appreciate the affli buff tbh

[mortal crag]

Yea defo

Nerf to devour

[reef flower]

E z already done that yesterday, warlock was afk half the time hehehe

[mortal crag]

No nerf to demo

[frosty cedar]

havent seen a good warlock yet so that hasn't happened lmao

[cold bay]

what keys r u pushing

[frosty cedar]

I dont really play m+ or push keys, I just do 13/14 max

[mortal crag]

I don’t really run into them much either tbh

16s ish

[cold bay]

yeah i rerolled lock start of xpac just to try smth new and then i went back to assa like in 12.0.5

lock is broken

[mortal crag]

Might just be a coincidence though

[cold bay]

im in 17-18+ outdpsing everyone by doing bare minimum in rotation

it needs a nerf

[mortal crag]

Feel like they’re pretty survivable too

Mages just keel over

[cold bay]

depends how u look at it

defensives wise definitely, but movement speed can kill u like dodging swirlies and what not

and theres alot in this seasons dungeons

[mortal crag]

Yeah true

[cold bay]

anw who cares abt lock only assa is based

[frosty cedar]

enlightened

[quiet star]

Lock have proactive movement tricks

Still with burning feet it can run away actually, but I hate this mechanic

[mortal crag]

Does assa still have weird energy issues, I was struggling at start of season doing world content so I switched over to sub, but haven’t been back to try out

[frosty cedar]

its part of the design

its not really an issue

[storm forum]

we prefer to call it "unique design"

[mortal crag]

Ah so it’s a feature

[storm forum]

yeah, we still run out of energy outside of Hero/DM/mass AoE

[mortal crag]

I kinda assumed it was just my janky armour at the time

[rugged basalt]

baby steps,.

[storm forum]

after I learned what a parse was, i was just happy to not be single digits

[frosty cedar]

after focusing on fundamentals and improving spec knowledge from playing a lot, higher parses will come

[quiet star]

How do you run out of energy during mass aoe?

It's like endless energy until the pack dies

[storm forum]

reread what I said

[quiet star]

Oh, sry

[storm forum]

lmao

its cool

i misread all the time

[rugged basalt]

im very happy playing with no lag so i dont have to account for copium

[shell crater]

We’ve all been there big chief

[rugged basalt]

wonderful saturday

[trim cairn]

Huh, I was today years old when I found out that people dying in your keys affects your overall dps/parse

[analog hedge]

i might have simmed wrong my whole life, what do you guys usually sim for m+, is it patchwerk 4 bosses?

for sin

[frosty cedar]

dungeonslice

[analog hedge]

gdi

[mortal crag]

lol

[rugged basalt]

doesnt 4 boss sim u like 400k

[analog hedge]

no

[trim cairn]

As in if you finish a key in 20 minutes with 3 minute penalty, your overall damage is divided by the time including the penalty timer instead of the actual gameplay time

[fleet whale]

If you guys think assassin has energy issues now, I can’t imagine what you would’ve thought of it back in WoD, Legion, most of BFA, etc.

[mortal crag]

I played it a lot in dragonflight and don’t remember the energy

But I could be like, just not remembering right

[lyric grail]

Guys anyone killed paladins on mythic assa what do I Focus on ?can I get some Tips I Fall down to 140k dps After opener 2 min in

[fleet whale]

Like WoD assassin was like 35 APM lol

[sick sail]

so whats diff with assa? for reset

[spare kayak]

Be glued to the bosses and fok spam

[mortal crag]

Steel tempest then slam fan

[hidden robin]

what does the deathmark bug fix mean for us fatebound enjoyers

[polar sail]

Nothing

[quiet star]

I guess 99% of people didn't even know about the bug

[hidden robin]

huzzah!

[quaint dragon]

thats becuz only 1% play deathstalekr

ah nvm thought it was bug on deathstalker xd

[hidden robin]

is death stalker fun

i never tried it b4

i played ret for df and tww

and only swapped to sin rogue for midnight

[pliant remnant]

My condolences

[royal lantern]

imagine playing fatebound

but

you hardlock yourself to 1 target

[quiet star]

Not with the skill mark

[hidden robin]

[uneven sandal]

this mark reminds me of redirect

[royal lantern]

what

[lyric grail]

Assa Bonus Rolls best dungeon ?

[civic trellis]

Pit

[light mirage]

Use raidbots droptimizer

[sick sail]

Yea Pit

[radiant aspen]

@frosty cedar whats secrets of chim

[frosty cedar]

still valid

[radiant aspen]

pit in my opinion

[radiant aspen]

even if ur first soak u send mark on boss ?

or u save it for big add

?

[frosty cedar]

always boss on pull

if you use on add, you cant use it again before intermission

[radiant aspen]

ic

so always send mark on boss on cd

?

[frosty cedar]

if your kill time is not going to let you use a fourth deathmark, you will want to hold the third for 5 minutes with potion

[safe kestrel]

do you guys know where does the huge dps difference comes from between ingame dmg meter and logs?

regardless of what spec I run

[reef flower]

Aug

[safe kestrel]

no aug

[fresh kelp]

if its a key then logs include downtime

[reef flower]

Huum

[fresh kelp]

details overall only shows in combat dps

[safe kestrel]

ah okay

so it's just downtime

and time between packs

[fresh kelp]

yes, really makes you see how good chaining is even when it makes details look worse

[hidden robin]

so is it worth learning deathstalker if i only do weekly 10s or nah

[hidden robin]

oh hell yeah

[hazy sundial]

after getting dagger in PoS on first bonus roll, should i continue rolling there for neck and ring or swap to AA for puzzlebox?

[spice sentinel]

Do you have heroic pbox?

If not then yes, if you have heroic id sim but probably still worth to switch, just the other pieces from algethar are pretty bad vs a bunch of good pieces from pos

[lone girder]

for 10s you can use the sudden demise build, fatebound is quality of life

deathstalker suks

[hidden robin]

there's a sudden demise build?

🤯

i found it

thank you Tokyo, Japan

[lone girder]

xD

I tested it yesterday to help some friends in 10's

and I had a lot of fun with it

deathstalker should be revamped ngl

[storm forum]

tbh I'd be happy if they just gave us some resources on it

like consuming a stack gives us a combo point or something

[lone girder]

that "DO NOT SWAP TARGETS" thing is annoying

[gleaming geyser]

just make mark player buff instead of on target

nerf it a bit if needed

[storm forum]

it just feels way worse to play

i dont mind mark and we do get a way to move it now

but i really missed the combo points from fb

[lone girder]

to me, personal opinion, moving the mark feels worse than swapping the target

just another 0 impact button to press with assa

deathmark already feels like the worst burst button to press

[storm forum]

i like thinking of DM as another bleed

like yeah its not doing anything immediately

but it puts a debuff on the enemy frame

[lone girder]

I wish that we had some hero talent poison/bleed focused

[storm forum]

and its big damage over that time

i think the other specs would riot

if we gave them a DoT focused hero talent

and tbh we might riot

[lone girder]

make it for assa only

like devourer has

[storm forum]

if sub gets rupture that does twice the damage of our DoTs again

is there actually a difference between fel scarred and void scarred?

[trim cairn]

It can also be because logs include the death time penalty

So every death is 15s of 0 dps for everyone on the overall dps

[tight ginkgo]

yes

one is fel and the other is void, big difference

[storm forum]

I hope ur pillow is too warm tonight

🙃

[little tulip]

so uh is wound good in maisara vs the frenzied berserkers?

tried on seat vs the subjugators and they actually fell over before lust ended on a 17

woxtoxic made a video and pointed out use cases for wound before anyone huhs

[storm forum]

Did they buff wound poison? Cause usually it's better for assa to just use damage poisons

Or is the healing in these dungeons just crazy this season and we haven't noticed?

Usually it's worth for ol/sub cause instant poison is like 1% of their damage, but for us, deadly poison is like 10% or something

[little tulip]

i just get rid of amp poison

getting rid of deadly sounds like a misplay

same on magisters which is the big use case

ascendent voidcallers are scary

[analog field]

putting wound on is kinda trolling

[little tulip]

i mean i've seen those 17s where everyone cranks

but i'm also friends with a rsham who's doing 18 seat

and they're saying the throughput required is full on insaneo style

so im not gonna agree with that take

in most contexts

[analog field]

There are more classes that have such tools

[little tulip]

also true

[storm forum]

Losing a few globals between packs to change poisons is annoying and in the past mathematically not worth it, but I haven't actually looked at how much healing these mobs have this season, and if it's scaling with key level it is probably worth it at some point.

[little tulip]

i did actually say the same thing

[analog field]

losing like 5% DPS or whatever it is

[grim jay]

the globals certainly werent what was holding it back

[little tulip]

this cast is no joke tho

[storm forum]

Don't you just stun that one?

[little tulip]

the subjugator

no it's immune

also woxtoxic put it in a video

haven't done a good maisara recently gonna see how it feels on the berserkers

i seriously doubt it's gonna affect time to kill in this one

[lime edge]

I doubt dropping amp is worth

[little tulip]

i mean you were trolling if you didn't use it last season on halls

[storm forum]

If something is healing like 50% of its health bar, at some key level it's worth it if you don't have another source of heal reduction

Wait what was healing in halls?

[analog field]

No one used it , I was borderline the only one using it

you had warr, hunter

and whatever other class can do it

Hunter does it in the same way without losing anything

but also that pull didn't need aoe it was just ST so losing spatter didn't matter. Previous season it was even worse using it

[little tulip]

im not trying to argue that wound isn't a loss for rogue and that other classes do it better

buuuuuut if you gotta do it do it

also amp poison isn't that big a deal

you consume it at 10 stacks for a 35% increased hit on an envenom

or subjugator die

im picking the die option :b

and also yappin to ppl to use healing reduction on those mobs lol

[small cairn]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[little tulip]

i mean from a few pulls on a resi maisara it's literally nothing

[fresh kelp]

amp poison buffs envenom though

[trim cairn]

You gotta add the enhanced envenom on top of it, from my testing it adds average of 20% to envenom damage

Just looking at SD build envenom damage without amp and DtB build envenom damage

[digital folio]

Hello fellow rogues, i feel i'm really doing something wrong in ST on some bosses, and i'm missing easily 20k dps, can someone look over my log to see what i do wrong ? i sim at 100k dps but i barely reach 75k in an actual fight

[acoustic roost]

Well you’re not a robot with 100% uptime 🙂

[little tulip]

already listed how it's consumed at 10 stacks for a 35% increase to your next envenom it's big but it's not gonna stop you from hitting 400k on the opener

literally just did it

and yeah you can hit more yada

[digital folio]

that is true, but i still feel i'm missing something, 25% difference is a lot.

[fresh kelp]

I do think wound is better

[little tulip]

dude it's so good on the voidcallers and subjugators

im up in the air about the berserkers but i hate seeing them regen 1% right at the end

[tight ginkgo]

their health creeping upwards makes me real mad

[little tulip]

cause fuck em

yeah

[acoustic roost]

Do a 5min target dummy sim and hit a target dummy for 5min. See how close you get then to make sure you’re doing things correctly

[trim cairn]

How much healing reduction is wound poison giving?

[lime edge]

Thats not counting caustic spatter from buffed envenom smh

I wouldn't hit target dummies for that long

[digital folio]

issue is target dummies end up low very fast, so you proc execute so it might be biased, but i'll try that

[lime edge]

They will be in execute range in like 30 seconds

[trim cairn]

So out of curiosity I checked, and in 21 keys leeching void during the pulls before 1st boss does 84k hps

[lime edge]

At 84k that doesnt sound worth but who knows

[trim cairn]

So with 5 stacks of wound poison on everything you'd be preventing 42k hps

[little tulip]

is that per target?

[sick sail]

is there a hot proper rotation for sin m+ and or raid

[trim cairn]

No, total

Absolute total on all targets

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/fdK1Lrt7BAHh62TZ?fight=10&type=healing&hostility=1&source=-1&start=15946526&end=16064716

[little tulip]

you still have to double that considering two are taken with lust

[trim cairn]

No

[little tulip]

explain

also

[trim cairn]

The mobs don't have more hps on that crop because of hero

[little tulip]

no there's two subjugators in the lust pull

and also in 21s people can do legendary amounts of damage

consistently

[trim cairn]

That doesnt change the hps of the mobs

[lime edge]

The heal is capped to 5 targets anyways

No

[little tulip]

yeah but there's two subjugators doing two casts of leeching void

so each is healing 5 targets for a total of 10

so my phrasing was iffy but you have 10 targets getting 82k in a 21

[trim cairn]

No

It's 82k hps total

[little tulip]

also can we just for funsies compare the hps the healer is doing during those fights

im not the greatest log reader but it looks like they're hitting about 60-100k

so i mean

[lime edge]

Isnt it better to look at the total healing

[trim cairn]

Ye so 82k hps total across all targets on average during those pulls

[lime edge]

Mobs have way more health than players u cant do that

[little tulip]

do we know if that's healing being applied to itself or all targets

[trim cairn]

Thats all targets

It's all the healing done by the spell in total

[lime edge]

So with wound poison mobs will heal about 5mil less?

Right

[trim cairn]

So it depends how much damage your amp poison would contribute over the same time

This is a 21 key though, on lower keys like 16-17 the mobs heal for half of this in the first place

[lime edge]

Yea amp has its own proc dmg, and then the boosted envenom

[little tulip]

it's not much proc damage it's like 462*

[lime edge]

Is the proc bigger than wound

Its a lot more than 91 what

Oh yea ok

[little tulip]

231 on wound

food for thought one of the win conditions of m+ is keeping your healer up a cooldown

so if your wound poison is decreasing the time of the encounter compared to using amp poison

then you're doing the right thing which is maybe why wox is putting it in a youtube video

cause this isn't my cook

[trim cairn]

In 20+ keys, I can see it actually pulling its weight a little if you manage to get 5 stacks on everything before the cast

[little tulip]

which was also true in halls cursed 3 phase mini boss etc

i'm not 100% if envenom* spreads it but im pretty sure it does

[lime edge]

ct just uses the normal poison chance no

Like the 30%

[trim cairn]

It does but not as much as FoK

[lime edge]

Fok has the crit and the normal poison chance

[little tulip]

cause by the time i'm done setting up kingsbane/refreshing imp garrote everything in the pack has wound on it from what i can see

[trim cairn]

I need more than 10 casts to guarantee 5 stacks on everything

[little tulip]

i'll look next key i get into

[trim cairn]

So I doubt that

With FoK it's significantly faster

[little tulip]

well if you're starting on the first subjugator

you'll be close by the time it runs into the second one

like i'm done setting up trink dm kb before first circle goes out

[trim cairn]

But then you wont have wound on all of those yet and you don't decide which ones get healed so

I'd say for keys lower than 20 this is not worth

[lime edge]

Amp poison doesn't show up anywhere on logs. Weird

The debuff

[trim cairn]

Since you'll be losing 20% envenom dps which is like 8k, 20% caustic spatter which is like 14k and 7k from amp

[little tulip]

would you tell people not to use wound on magisters terrace? i certainly wouldn't

[trim cairn]

I wouldn't presume to tell people anything about what they should be doing

If not everyone would be running Sudden Demise

[bronze panther]

do we ever press shiv?

[trim cairn]

And Rogues would top the metres everywhere

[little tulip]

skitterflies in algethar if you have a chance

[lime edge]

Wait yea it shows up im blind

[little tulip]

ogres in windrunner when they bloodlust

[trim cairn]

Also to double back to this

Yeah I would never bother telling someone to use wound poison for this

[trim cairn]

Even on 21 key they barely heal

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/wMKYanG2vLHqQCfm?fight=5&type=healing&hostility=1&source=74&start=30547123&end=30713059

[little tulip]

again that's hugely skewing away from regular players

who aren't facemelting professionals

[trim cairn]

No, because you are failing to consider that they would heal significantly less on lower keys

[little tulip]

like not everyone can do the priory pull y'know

[trim cairn]

Which are what regular players would be doing

[little tulip]

even on a 17 it's a 200% increase in damage

[lime edge]

On 1st pull of pit I had 45 stacks of amp poison on lich and 26 on graveblade

[little tulip]

you're dead in about 2 globals without defensives

[bronze panther]

what buffs are worth tracking as assa? going to practice now

for tracked buffs

[little tulip]

i'd be really careful about saying just hit sub 1%er levels of play smile it's not a great answer

not everyone can do this pull or melt the voidcaller before healer runs out of cds etc https://youtu.be/EkTsyqjGt-o?si=GHzWYlA6HNajsVMU&t=1027

they have 3 people on that pull hitting 40m average

you're lucky to see 20m in a 17 last season

[trim cairn]

I didn't play last expansion so I couldn't care less, I'm just looking at the numbers

If you are that scared of dying to the mob you can just LoS the cast around the doorway

[little tulip]

i'll show you my raider io if you show me yours

[severe meadow]

I think you guys should kiss

[hidden robin]

https://klipy.com/gifs/kiss-video-love-you--k01KQMWX3R3AKSA745WM9FSMXSP

[trim cairn]

How about you show me a log that shows wound poison is worth it instead lol

[little tulip]

i mean i got my 17 seat done

totally died at the end a few times but before that it looked great

[trim cairn]

Damn, is this how it feels for other people when I talk about Sudden Demise

[little tulip]

whadda ya mean sudden demise was great in tww s2

[trim cairn]

[hidden robin]

is that wgat sudden demise always looked like

i never noticed

it kinda looks like the laughing emoji

[lime edge]

What is your io

[little tulip]

3479

[coral ibex]

everyone with less io than me is a casual who should stfu about balance. everyone with more io than me is a jobless neet who should touch grass

[lime edge]

You barely have more io than me, why are u flexing smh

I stopped pushing io 2 weeks ago

[coral ibex]

bro its a meme

[lime edge]

Bro not u

Smh

[severe meadow]

Nothing is a meme to m+ andies

[lime edge]

Im talking about walmart

[little tulip]

i timed two of those today

watch me

[lime edge]

Now i just login, do my 8 dungeons, log out for the week

[coral ibex]

emplussers...

[lime edge]

Maybe do some raid

[turbid yacht]

Only on Deathstalker when you're 6/7 combo points and about to get the guaranteed crit from Darkest Night

[hidden robin]

when you're at how many combo points?

https://klipy.com/gifs/sus-rock-2--k01KQMX38RWH0R4KQSFXQGP34FX

[solar wyvern]

It has mortal steike on it btw 2.7m hp is no joke

[turbid yacht]

How good is Assassination Rogue as a PI target when you're in execute and Deathmark/Kingsbane?

[solar wyvern]

Wound gud but not on assa

Maybe stack and swap amp before cast angle

[coral ibex]

not much better than outside execute, kingsbane is capped at 50 stacks and you reach 50 within a few seconds during DM

[little tulip]

i just want rogue to get baseline aoe blind and make airborne irritant a ranged kick

[coral ibex]

more haste doesnt really do anything for us except some more bleed damage and faster poison applications via melee swings

[little tulip]

i would run that over gouge any day the way some other classes don't scan for casters >_>

[turbid yacht]

I feel like that's significant though. Unsure how the power infusion priority is timing the infusions on bloodmallet.

[coral ibex]

it isn't significant

you can look at logs

and what your largest damage sources are

[lime edge]

And more deadly poison dmg

[turbid yacht]

https://tenor.com/view/fade-away-oooooooooooo-aga-emoji-crumble-gif-20008708

[coral ibex]

here's execute DM on rank 1 vorasius

most of your damage is envenom and kingsbane

haste isn't doing much to increase those

[lime edge]

Its buffing ur amp poison tho

For envenom

[lucid walrus]

when simming ST and m+ do we turn buffs on or off?

[little tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/kirby-gif-8645903834531556494

also

[solar wyvern]

73 amp applications, + previously stacked amps, so like 7 or 8/9 envenoms buffed already XD

[lime edge]

Tbf haste is buffing all of ur dmg in the top 6 sources there

[solar wyvern]

Pi assa is low value but theres at least some value there

[little tulip]

also did get the sense that maybe the targets listed in the wox video were overkill it's literally the voidfin adds in seat, the dudes who blink out and heal themselves and the subjugators im not doin all that

[lime edge]

Low value vs the highest value classes maybe

[little tulip]

just the lust pull cause people die on that one a whole lot

[lime edge]

I doubt its low in general tho

[solar wyvern]

Its low in general lad

[coral ibex]

low is only relative

[lime edge]

If it was low in general I dont think we would be going crit haste for st

[coral ibex]

we dont stack haste...

[solar wyvern]

You go haste to a point, excess haste becomes significantly worse

[turbid yacht]

Is that true for Sin?

[solar wyvern]

Relatively

[coral ibex]

yes

[little tulip]

bleeds tick faster

[turbid yacht]

Sub has break points, but simulations keep saying to pump haste

on sin for me at least

But my crit is at cap

[little tulip]

deathstalker wants 1.1k that might be doing it

[lime edge]

Yea sin has no breakpoints

[coral ibex]

sin wants significantly more crit than haste

usually like 2x or more

haste is as important as mastery

[turbid yacht]

But you hit soft cap with crit and then you can max haste

[coral ibex]

no

[solar wyvern]

Bleeds tick faster, poisons proc more, haste is a good stat but that doesnt mean PI is big value is all

[lime edge]

Deadly also ticks faster

In st u also have mutilate bleed?

Which should work

[turbid yacht]

Haste for me was much better than mastery, mastery was actually worse than soft capped crit in sim.

[coral ibex]

idk how ur simming

[solar wyvern]

Yeah mastery is 3rd stat prio normally

[coral ibex]

sounds wrong tho

[solar wyvern]

Unless ur in aoe

Where it becomes better

[lime edge]

Mastery would only be 2nd if box didnt exist prob

[turbid yacht]

I do have a box

[lime edge]

Yea with box it goes way down

[coral ibex]

i haven't found any sim that wants me to equip an item without crit

[lime edge]

In value

[coral ibex]

it wants crit in literally every slot i can get it

[little tulip]

yeah box is literally holding mastery so we can get crit haste i guess

[turbid yacht]

But haste was actually so good it was like 10% worse than crit.

[lime edge]

Yea but what about the other stat

[turbid yacht]

It specifically wants crit HASTE in every slot for me in sim

[coral ibex]

it doesn't matter what the other stat is, every slot wants big crit

which means crit is the most valuable stat at all amounts

[turbid yacht]

Tier set pants were better than tier set helm in sim for me because pants have haste and tier helm has mastery/vers.

[lime edge]

Yea but there's big crit haste items

And big crit mastery items

[solar wyvern]

Sim guidon and it still wants around 700-750 haste baseline

Mastery just isnt as good now is what it is

[coral ibex]

yea and every sim has me equipping basically equal haste and mastery

[solar wyvern]

Box just a high budget 20 sec 2 min trinket

[lime edge]

That seems super weird to me

People that do m+ dont even have equal amounts i don't think

[solar wyvern]

If there was a 2min versa trinket with a similar budget it would also be good likely

[lime edge]

Well box is overtuned no

Compared to other 2min secondary stat

Like the number is way bigger

[solar wyvern]

Yes

[lime edge]

Theres feather

[solar wyvern]

That is why we play it

[lime edge]

Which is like 400 haste? Or so

[solar wyvern]

Feather such a bad trinket xd

[lime edge]

[coral ibex]

that's why he said if there was a 2min versa trinket with a similar budget

[solar wyvern]

400 2 min cd vs 700 1.5m cd

[little tulip]

yeah they basically smushed 2nd best trinkets in the game compared to last season

[lime edge]

Maxed out box is like 850 mastery

[turbid yacht]

Stat weights have several shortcomings, I do understand

But haste seems quite a bit better than mastery

[coral ibex]

oh if ur referencing stat weights

im not taking anything you say seriously

its so dogshit

if ur not comparing with top gear or droptimizer ur just wrong

[little tulip]

i think the thing about haste is that it really serves to make the other secondaries work better rather than adding any value by itself

[turbid yacht]

Well, I'm talking about PI.

[little tulip]

that's why we use the term haste tax

[solar wyvern]

Ye everything works with eachother in the end

[lime edge]

Top gear/drop dont work with void rings tho unless u already have the rings (or both rings for top gear)

[solar wyvern]

I will say

PI would be better if you were to play like a 10% haste setup

By sheer value of making a shortcoming better

Could honestly go hard in keys

But then u have a priest in keys

[lime edge]

Does pi have diminishing returns

No right?

[little tulip]

log invalidated :b

[lime edge]

Its just a flat +20%?

[spice surge]

Problem with pi is that envenom doesn't really do more damage with more envenoms

[lime edge]

I mean sort of

[turbid yacht]

It does do more damage with more amplifying poisons though?

[lime edge]

Amplifying poison buffs envenom directly

[spice surge]

Yeah hence the "not really"

Because you're mostly hitting 10s anyway

[turbid yacht]

Oooh, good point, there is a cap stack

It's at 20 though, I imagine the haste is helpful

[coral ibex]

well you can see from the vorasius top 46, PI isn't an instant win button

[turbid yacht]

Is that what those buffs are on the right?

[coral ibex]

yes

[lime edge]

Tbf a lot of the top guys got pi

[little tulip]

and didn't have to do adds

!rik

oh okay good

[lime edge]

Theres also randomness in ur dmg

So who knows

[turbid yacht]

Maybe Ciao is cooking up a dank brew?
More to my point would be, specifically in execute, would it be a dps increase to change from PIing whatever their current target is and change to a Sin Rogue if the rogue is pressing Deathmark?

And like there's 1 more use of PI in the fight so that's it

[little tulip]

mmm no

[turbid yacht]

As I imagine the PI sims are done over a full fight of you PIing a rogue which is a bit better than mid

But zoldyck recipe kinda slaps

[little tulip]

i think you'd have to be a raid leader or friends with the raid leader to pull that off

and even then it'd be like as a lol parse rather than something you'd do on prog

[turbid yacht]

Not denying that, it would take mad coordination to line up PI with a deathmark, but the durations are basically the same. It looks so juicy!

[true tusk]

yo this nerf on rogues when they are not the best st spec and aoe too... what the hell? xd

[waxen oyster]

well sub got a tiny buff

[royal lantern]

i mean

cloud cover was like what? 12% by itself?

ofc that will get adjusted

yeha sure blizz does dumb thing again there, but if somebody though thhat cloud cover would stay in its CLEARLY NOT TESTED version for long, idk what to say lol

[true tusk]

yes, it was obvious they were going to adjust it, but it's very noticeable that it's not in Blizzard's plans for rogue to be clearly meta class

it's not like i want it to be, but the minimal tuning they're doing to the assa, for example, is just too blatant

[lime edge]

Hey man

[waxen oyster]

caring about being meta

[little tulip]

hi 🙂

[lime edge]

That just means the assa is exactly where they want

Perfectly balanced

[little tulip]

https://tenor.com/view/ocelot-revolver-ocelot-revolver-metal-gear-solid3-metal-gear-solid-gif-5658973

[lime edge]

Thats why fire mages got no changes

Duh

[little tulip]

yeah pretty good

[waxen oyster]

they acknowledge the class exists enough to not apply buffs to pvp

funny

[royal lantern]

i mean

if you wanna be meta

[waxen oyster]

play mage

yeah

[royal lantern]

dont go the yellow class since TBC lol

go mage, warlock or DK

[trim cairn]

That's why I rerolled monk

[royal lantern]

or Augvoker if you are a degenerate

[little tulip]

i think having feint off gcd was the biggest change to rogue

[lime edge]

Assa was meta at some point

[waxen oyster]

feint off global was a gigantic buff

[trim cairn]

1 day playing monk and tanking in my life and already blasting 100k overall in keys

Stupid class

[waxen oyster]

no it wasnt

[true tusk]

nah, i don't care, in fact i wouldn't play it if that were the case because assa has never been an extremely pampered class like, for example paladin

[lime edge]

Late bfa no?

[waxen oyster]

what

[lime edge]

From what I remember

[waxen oyster]

outlaw expac

[lime edge]

Late late bfa

[little tulip]

assa was s tier a few seasons ago i just said that more or less

[waxen oyster]

still was nothing compared to mastery fire mage

[lime edge]

After corruption vendor

[waxen oyster]

or bm hunter

[little tulip]

at least in m+ anyway

i hate playing with aug on assassin

[waxen oyster]

tbh this only applies to bfa and onward rets

[little tulip]

the cc profile

[waxen oyster]

ret was a meme spec prior

[lime edge]

Assa with giga haste was cracked

[little tulip]

is so down bad

for what you're getting

[waxen oyster]

full haste warlock

[little tulip]

if i had a pocket prot warrior maybe good lord it's not great

[true tusk]

but hey, i guess it pisses me off to see how the unholy, who was in the shit last expansion or the feral, were left extremely clean, while the assa is in no man's land, neither good nor bad, it simply exists

[waxen oyster]

i mean i dont think giga bleed haste assa was bad

but this was a season you had shit like lock mage and hunter

who scaled even stupider

[lone girder]

rogue is never meta relevant, other classes just do the same dmg and bring utility

[little tulip]

if devourer didn't have a ranged kick they'd literally be in the same boat

[waxen oyster]

i mean if you want to play keys and dont have friends

you play fotm

thats just how it is

or just make friends

[little tulip]

tab off your prio target to kick a polymorph and cry a lil

[lone girder]

mmo should not have meta

xd

[waxen oyster]

pvers discovering what a focus kick is

10 years late

is always peak comedy

[little tulip]

actually..in the same vein as feint off the gcd being a huge buff to rogue overall they should figure out how to get tricks to target the tank role without requiring a focus macro

[waxen oyster]

always baffles me when people tout a focus kick macro as some new technology

when it already existed over 10 years ago

[true tusk]

in BfA maybe? i don't remember exactly but i think in freehold dungeon was meta

[waxen oyster]

that was because shroud

[true tusk]

for skipp pulls

[little tulip]

like the pop out menu our poison selection has

[waxen oyster]

and every bfa dungeon was comically over count

not because rogue did crazy damage

[little tulip]

just pick a party member and zug

[true tusk]

yeah

[waxen oyster]

thats just inherently flaws

of bfa dungeon design

realize how it stopped being relevant when they brought the dungeons back

[waxen oyster]

you can never fix this anyway

because players have their own perceptions

[lime edge]

MMOs could balance better tho

[true tusk]

but they could be much fairer with the class balance, making one class less important than another, or adding utility

[lime edge]

Like there's some super weird biases in wow

For balance

Ive never seen unholy dk be bad

Just from the times I play

[true tusk]

that would minimize the impact and make the option of playing whatever you want more fun, since many people who play alone, as you mentioned, or don't have friends, end up spending hours just to do a couple of runs because they're not playing meta

[tacit nest]

any pre key business for sin?

[snow kindle]

Werent they always bad previous tiers/xpac its only been recent that they are good

[little tulip]

nope

[snow kindle]

ever since like Tww S2 they have been good I dont recalle them being invite prior to that atleast if DF

[lime edge]

No

Ive never seen them bad

Not in df

Or shadowlands

[snow kindle]

Bad or meta

[little tulip]

well fdk was played over udk waaay back

[lime edge]

U mean not meta?

What

[little tulip]

but they didn't like how it was giga hitting theater of pain/necrotic wake or something

[lime edge]

Im saying udk has never been bad

[little tulip]

and buffed udk

[snow kindle]

i mean like what dym by bad cause rarely is a class just straight up bad

[little tulip]

but that's still death knight

[lime edge]

U mean how fire mage is

Right now

[snow kindle]

fire mage rn?

[lime edge]

[snow kindle]

Not even bad

lol

in keys or raid?

[lime edge]

In general

[snow kindle]

in raid yea pure ST not good. Cleave though they are amazing.

[lime edge]

They arent amazing

[snow kindle]

they absolutely are

its just why would you ever bring that

but it is very good

[lime edge]

Those last 2 lines are not compatible

[waxen oyster]

no its literally community perception

as soon a spec does the most damage

people list abilities as "utility"

like people stop mentioning gate as utility when lock isnt overtuned damage

[snow kindle]

they are very compatible. something can be very good and not essential to a fight...?

[waxen oyster]

also

havoc is severely under the radar

[fallow canopy]

Xiani did say "most damage"

[waxen oyster]

with how overtuned devourer is

[little tulip]

pretty sure you needed a monk to get a good parse on forgeweaver araz after the .5 patch to get the shields off at the same time

[waxen oyster]

?

[little tulip]

or i guess an ursol's vortex at a time when people really weren't playing balance

[waxen oyster]

araz was just whoever padded on adds

[little tulip]

you know the knock back strat?

[waxen oyster]

the hardest

[little tulip]

they changed the logs to not register damage

on shielded adds

[lime edge]

What does that even mean

[little tulip]

so you might hit big numbers but the log wouldn't match after the .5 patch

[waxen oyster]

no araz parse was literally

[true tusk]

maybe

[waxen oyster]

whover exploded the spawning adds

[snow kindle]

If a class is a god at AOE, but weak ST it does not mean they are bad.

[fallow canopy]

They did change the logs iirc

[waxen oyster]

yeah

but doesnt change that fact

xd

[waxen oyster]

ryldd beat me because my guild got another intermission

unlucky

[little tulip]

unfiltered damage isn't logged in the parse xd

[lime edge]

What are they good for then

[waxen oyster]

im aware

[lime edge]

Are they even good

[snow kindle]

Im not understanding what youre not understanding

[little tulip]

so you had to have a monk to break the shield efficiently to log that optimally

[lime edge]

I think ur definition of good is bricked

Good is inherently comparative

So fire mage no good

[snow kindle]

if youre strictly talking about a ST fight

then yea its not good.

[waxen oyster]

filtered vs unfiltered

[snow kindle]

if youre talking about in general Fmage is fine

[little tulip]

were you running the add spawns behind the pool or standing in front of them and knocking the balls into the circle or whatever

[waxen oyster]

run behind

[lime edge]

They arent even doing good in the 3 boss so idk

And that is "ideal"

Supposedly

[little tulip]

yeah our best dps on that fight did 7 mil filtered i figured the log was reflected that the shields weren't breaking at the same time

[snow kindle]

3 boss? Lightblinded vanguards?

[waxen oyster]

i mean

araz got worse

the longer the tier went on

728 is deep deep farm

[lime edge]

Ye

[waxen oyster]

which is play assa angle

[fresh kelp]

another intermission bruh?

how long was your kill timer

[fallow canopy]

Just play assa

[snow kindle]

They excel at high cleave not 3T

[fresh kelp]

we were on the slow end already

[little tulip]

yeah bunch of people were deleting the pad i had the same problem on nazindri

[waxen oyster]

6:26

i think it was the reset you got rank 1

idr

[lime edge]

Just high cleave? What

How is that good then

[little tulip]

whole lotta this

[fresh kelp]

also this isnt referring to the shielded adds that get spawned

its the big tank dudes

and the orbs at last 15% that got removed

[waxen oyster]

Just play assa on araz

[fallow canopy]

The ones that were by the boss during amp no?

[waxen oyster]

on late farm

[fresh kelp]

ye those guys

[little tulip]

yeah i don't always read :y

[snow kindle]

Because if there are fights where theres any high cleave. They would be potentially the best.. Thats how its good. The class does not suck the fights are just not good for them. If you see them in M+ aswell they absolutely blast.

[fallow canopy]

Ye I did like 10m dps unfiltered on assa on farm

[snow kindle]

again just because a class isnt good at EVERYTHING doesnt mean that class sucks

[fresh kelp]

there were logs with over 50% of their damage being orbs at the last 15% of the fight

[waxen oyster]

i mean assa was better late farm since he often died

on first burn

with prism and pot in execute range

[quiet star]

offtopic, how night elf Touch of elune works in m+?

[waxen oyster]

i still miss the 7min gally dm

[quiet star]

still by server time?

[waxen oyster]

with add spawn

most nutworthy cd use of the expac

[fresh kelp]

preflag ramp into cb sectec as the gally adds spawned

[little tulip]

i had some blue parses going into 3rd add ball phase on salhadaar before i dc'd on thursday

[lime edge]

If the class is good at barely anything it does suck tho

Lol

[waxen oyster]

https://tenor.com/view/diddy-baby-oil-oil-him-up-xllcarolinellx-gif-12157753233357456797

[snow kindle]

Thats just not how it works if you look at the game as a whole.

[fallow canopy]

What dreams are made of

[waxen oyster]

watching vods are so funny of it

and just looking at details

[little tulip]

i know for sure i got dam in during lust and maybe a 2nd blades during intermission before my internet went out

[waxen oyster]

though fuck mugzee

get a jail

on last dm

[fallow canopy]

I had permission to void rift out

Velf diff

[waxen oyster]

yeah i was maghar

so gamba

[lime edge]

I mean they suck in m+ and raid

Idk what to tell you

[fresh kelp]

[waxen oyster]

the one time velf was good

[snow kindle]

They dont suck in M+ though

They arent meta thats for sure

[lime edge]

They are way below not being meta

[snow kindle]

in terms of what playerbase?

[fallow canopy]

The classic +1m in 10 secs

[lime edge]

Mage is popular class too

[waxen oyster]

thats alot of damage

[lime edge]

So firemage being at the bottom in playrate says something

[snow kindle]

not realy.

[waxen oyster]

i mean fire is also less friendly

to giga casuals

[snow kindle]

Frost has always been the more played spec

[waxen oyster]

way easier to play frost

[snow kindle]

and its actually considered meta

[waxen oyster]

and hit the shiny

[lime edge]

Yea but ive never seen Fire have as little playrate as it does now

[waxen oyster]

its never been friendly

to casuals

since it has larger room for error

[lime edge]

And it was more popular

[snow kindle]

low pray rate does not equal bad though.

[lime edge]

Before

[waxen oyster]

when it was the best spec

lol

monke see sim

monke follow

[lime edge]

But if its difficulty keeps people away supposedly

That wouldnt matter

[waxen oyster]

its both

if a spec does less while being harder

people arent gonna play

[lime edge]

The performance has a much bigger impact is what im saying

Isnt fire mage way easier now

Than before

[royal lantern]

our firemage is #3 in the world with 3,7k

[waxen oyster]

well mage players tend to play whatever is best

its mostly rogues that onetrick

and refuse to play other specs in their class

[royal lantern]

he just REALLY fucking hates midnight frost and arcane

[waxen oyster]

i mean valid

though mage complaints are

almost as dumb as healer ones

alas

[lime edge]

Firemage is below outlaw

[royal lantern]

nerf outlaw more

[waxen oyster]

i mean outlaw has its dedicated fabase

who play outlaw even if its garbanzo

[snow kindle]

you are looking at fire mage through a microscope.

[waxen oyster]

like tww s3

[lime edge]

Im literally just looking at numbers

[royal lantern]

thats just rogue tbh

[snow kindle]

but you arent looking at the big picture

[waxen oyster]

yeah mages are more prone to swapping

rogue just has alot of otps

[lime edge]

[little tulip]

the humble one trick

[snow kindle]

I can show you WCL saying on Mythin Dragons fire mage is the best spec, but that doesnt mean its OP..

[waxen oyster]

anytime the rogue specs are similar in numbers

[snow kindle]

or the best to play all around

[waxen oyster]

assa is the most played

because its the easiest

[little tulip]

it only requiring high apm every 2 minutes is still a lot for a lot of people or something

[royal lantern]

rare @warm vortex screenshot

[waxen oyster]

no spec in wow rn is high apm

when i say high i mean 100+

[royal lantern]

tanks are a bit higher, but thats it

[little tulip]

ye true we're not playing starcraft or dawn of war

[waxen oyster]

yeah but most tanks

play like they have 25apm

so

[rancid oasis]

!prekey

[warm vortex]

Holy shit it is actually me

[little tulip]

but also the apm is used to set and forget tasks or kiting units around

we're pushing buttons because if we don't it's usually a death or worse key deplete

[ruby idol]

is there a ui channel?

[lime edge]

Either way, I was talking about how ive never seen udk be bad

[waxen oyster]

kiting what is that

we kill or die

[lime edge]

And thats how fire mage got brought up

[little tulip]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9BfQaGykeU

[waxen oyster]

league of legends

[little tulip]

terms originally from starcraft ehe

[waxen oyster]

only other game that has a playerbase constantly complain how much they hate it

and continue to play

[lime edge]

Who else has never been bad

[little tulip]

you're trying to out of range the enemy unit while getting damage on it

and whoever kites harder wheens

[waxen oyster]

i mean ima be fr

if you play a class with multiple dps specs

and refuse to play the one thats good

thats on you

[lime edge]

Its not about that tho

[olive falcon]

to be fair you can use the same logic about classes, not only specs

[lime edge]

I mean specifically ive never seen udk be bad

Im not talking about frost at all

Or dk as a whole

[waxen oyster]

the commitment to swap specs is almost nonexistent

class at least you have to gear another one

[lime edge]

I mean u can just pick the good one to begin with no

By ur logic

[olive falcon]

I mean, not entirely true. I wasted 6 bonus rolls to get an outlaw weapon

now I'm screwed

[waxen oyster]

i mean if you ask unholy players they'll say the class is bad

[royal lantern]

wdym screwed

[olive falcon]

6 bonus rolls is what, 2-3 weeks

[waxen oyster]

before tww

[lime edge]

I mean will they actually

Unholy is my 2nd most played spec

[royal lantern]

dk players since ~df have become worse then mage

its insane

[lime edge]

Its never been bad when I played it

So idk

[waxen oyster]

yeah

dk hasnt been bad

its just larp

[royal lantern]

im pretty sure unholy dk is the spec thhat was meta for like 80% of m+ seasons

[lime edge]

If u look up rando tier list

[royal lantern]

while also being consistently in the upper half for raids at minimum lol

[lime edge]

Udk is prob near the top

[olive falcon]

well can't play outlaw anymore since I wont get any invites for being a B/C tier spec, so I'll have to switch

[royal lantern]

are you pugging frking +17 keys or what

[olive falcon]

yes

[lime edge]

Yea thats what I mean

[royal lantern]

well, thats a you problem then

playing yellow class and pugging is oof

[waxen oyster]

i mean zac plays outlaw still

[lime edge]

I dony get invited to 15s

[royal lantern]

zac is french

[lime edge]

Does Zac pug

[olive falcon]

It's insanely hard to get accepted into anything beyond 13

[waxen oyster]

no he does the normal human thing

[little tulip]

zac uses mastery gear to play outlaw

[waxen oyster]

of making friends

even if his tank boolies him losing to the tank

[little tulip]

it made sense for like one pull today in a 12..where we had 8 targets

[lime edge]

Yea but friends work

[fallow canopy]

Is the outlaw nerf that big?

[royal lantern]

yeha, you play a class without BL, no CR, no big group utility that is also not FotM meta

[lime edge]

Or have things to do

[olive falcon]

Well, outlaw buff fixed that with phys comp, but now outlaw is dead

[royal lantern]

whhat do you expect

play with friends

like you are supposed to do

[lime edge]

You know

[little tulip]

get resi 17s and throw them in the deep end

[waxen oyster]

gonna be honest "phys comp" was a dumb premise because

you could have replaced the outlaw

with another melee

[lime edge]

Assa with phys comp is like giga

[waxen oyster]

and it would have made better use of the buffs

[lime edge]

But warriors basically also dont exist

Monks and shamans are common tho

[royal lantern]

"phys comp" always felt like such a giga cope

like, giga "its actually really good trust me!!!" vibes

[waxen oyster]

like on the premise that phys comp is "good"

and warrior is better than rogue

[olive falcon]

phys comps worked really well

[waxen oyster]

whats stopping you from running 2 warriors

instead of a rogue

[olive falcon]

none now

[waxen oyster]

the rogue doesnt buff the other melee