assassination

[winged sun]

because with bleed build, if u pull the boss with deathmark on cd because u had to send it on a deadly pack beforehand

thats legit gg

alt f4

[runic hinge]

[spice surge]

But the kb variant has higher burst

[royal lantern]

drop doomblade and bonespike and grab blindside with the free points, change the finisher reduction cost to improved ambush in the class tree then i gues

[spice surge]

So it should be the opposite

[desert crest]

Yeah bleed does good st outside of cds

[royal lantern]

BUT dropping SBS means your aoe openers slow down, as you cant go rupture->rupture anymore

[desert crest]

in comparison

[south prawn]

Wouldnt sub be better if u are looking for more ST?

[winged sun]

@spice surge if u have deathmark on cd

u legit do 0 st

this build u always have either kingsbane or both

and

u have supercharger

[royal lantern]

genuine question, are you using Crimson Tempest on ST with bleed build

[winged sun]

ofcourse i am

[spice surge]

Idk sims are fake ig, even on pure ST

[winged sun]

i know all the minmaxes idk why ur asking such questions

[royal lantern]

kk, just wanted to make sure, sometimes thats forgoten

[winged sun]

as much as i wander in outlaw, i read all the guides and i watch all whispyr's videos

i just cant seem to get bleed build to work st wise at all

you really need everything up

for it to really do acceptable dps

which is not realistic in high keys

besides it even sims -5% on pure st

[spice surge]

Swap to momentum instead of ftb

[winged sun]

u wont be hitting near 1.6m if u have deathmark on cd

[spice surge]

And its like +1.5%

On St

[winged sun]

ye thats with momentum

i can try simming follow the blood too

[spice surge]

The kb variant is more reliant on deathmark though

[winged sun]

btw we tried supercharger vs outlaw in aoe

supercharger was slightly ahead in workshop

(low aoe key)

[royal lantern]

but yeha like

if your goal is more consistent ST dmg, i gues its mostly about grabbing the ST talents and dropping other stuff

stuff that increases your ST would be taking Systemic failure/blindside in spec tree and changing TIght Spender into Improved Ambush, so you can capitalise from the Ambush buffs we got/have more energy avaible

If you say that you cant stealth often, drop Improved Garrote?

If you can play without it, drop Bonespike and it automatically frees a Doomblade aswell, so you can take Systemic Failure/Blindside and Dashing Scoundrell now, which all 3 are ST based talents

[buoyant herald]

when i simmed ST on hybrid vs bleed it was pretty much identical - hybrid just does a tiny bit more burst. ultimately you're doomed to doing ratshit boss damage as assass anyway so

does it matter if you're 1.6 vs 1.4 when everyone else is over 2m

maybe

[desert crest]

It kinda does

[winged sun]

this build u really do good st

[royal lantern]

like, in the end i cant really say how YOU are running keys zeross, but thats what i would do in your case

[winged sun]

im consistently hitting the 1.7m st dps mark

on this build

but

[royal lantern]

like, if my goal was getting more ST dmg

[winged sun]

on bleed/normal hybrid

if anything is on cd

its legit gg

[royal lantern]

but it will be a aoe dmg drop aswell

[haughty flicker]

what is it about sin that makes you play it over sub in high keys atm if the st damage is so important

[winged sun]

bleed build feels way more impactful if deathmark is on cd

[haughty flicker]

is the aoe damage so much higher still even with these talents?

[winged sun]

u legit do dogwater st

[royal lantern]

sub does way lower aoe aswell

[winged sun]

u might even

end up

doing pure st 1m

only

[royal lantern]

naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh

[buoyant herald]

ultimately if your goal is to time rather than do big overall then yeah but then it's just like...why not play outlaw?

[royal lantern]

its above 1m

not much, but its above 1m

[buoyant herald]

other than KS issues

[winged sun]

its like

1.2m

if u pull a boss without deathmark (recently used)

[haughty flicker]

i mean even with these talents im sure you do more damage in huge pulls than outlaw does

[winged sun]

and no lust

[royal lantern]

i mean, 1.2m is 20% above 1m

[buoyant herald]

oh yeah for sure, but your boss damage is still well behind

[winged sun]

sin has consistent aoe which is kinda decent

well

[golden loom]

How long are the boss fights in that key range

[winged sun]

i only play sin in very few keys

4 mins

kinda

give or take

[buoyant herald]

and if we need to scuff our aoe to do boss damage then you're just a worse outlaw

[winged sun]

sometimes 3:30

if ur playing sub bosses legit melt

[golden loom]

Well hey atleast u get a dm in zoldyck range

[haughty flicker]

which keys do you play sin in vs sub

[winged sun]

just fyi

i only play sin in these keys

[haughty flicker]

ik ive seen you say first half of floodgate then swap

[winged sun]

on floodgates, i swap to sub before swamp

[bronze pike]

fuck swamp

[winged sun]

i do play master assassin

in floodgates

way better than hybrid

for the 2 bosses only

but if ur going for entire key sin, supercharger will be better

[buoyant herald]

low key (lol) im glad i don't play at a key range when i need to swap

[haughty flicker]

yeah i dont do keys high enough for these types of minmaxes to matter

but its interesting to learn what people do and why

[elfin flame]

i was wondering this too

i haven't played it as much but ive seen ppl play it

[buoyant herald]

yeah this is good stuff to be a loud fly on the wall for

[elfin flame]

also regarding ST

[elfin flame]

did u change gear or just sim with same gear

my bleed build has diff stat weights such that i play more haste which results in more ST

still worse but the difference is closer, like 3%

[winged sun]

same gear, i do have alot of crit which is sure, making bleed build slightly worse

im sitting at 26% crit

[terse stirrup]

how much haste?

[elfin flame]

is my setup rn

so 26% isn't too far off tbf

but yeah i was also wondering about forced induc build bc on sims at least it doesn't seem the gain in ST is worth the loss in aoe, with respect to hybird or bleed

unless the prio is a lot better

but idk how to measure that

[spice surge]

Idk maybe you play too much around ma instead of making sure youre using vanish for good refreshes of bleeds right before execute?

[coral ibex]

FI stans insist its bis but can't elaborate beyond feels

[buoyant herald]

big number fun

[haughty flicker]

i mean at least zeross is firsthand feels instead of the people who watch a stream then say its bis because they saw someone else play it

[jade hemlock]

question abot shiv as bleed spec, if you pop it after you bleed a big pack worth and then DS - will the subsequence shiv affect 7 different targets ?

[spice surge]

Idk what DS means here

But yes shiv hits 8 targets with arterial

[winged sun]

the aoe build does feel like it oversims on aoe fights that raelly last a long time

[winged sun]

no i really do like refreshing in execute

[jade hemlock]

Sorry meant deathmark

basically is it ever worth to prep it all then double shiv

on a big pull

[humble verge]

anybody here whos running bleed build on high keys?

[haughty flicker]

well shiv doesnt stack so dont double shiv

[winged sun]

im not sure on what i can do with the bleed build in keys where you need st

because st really matters so much this season

[jade hemlock]

st as bleed build feels poop so far, but im only doing lower keys at the moment around 11/12s

[spice surge]

Just play raid build?

[winged sun]

xd

[vital flicker]

ST as Sin feels like poop

in m+

[winged sun]

well

supercharger u can beat udk sometimes

on pure st

which is absolutely crazy

especially when 1-2 mob spawns in between of a fight

[jade hemlock]

ive watched a bunch of vids and looked at parses to see what determines/distinguishes above average from elite parses

[winged sun]

even tho adds spawning is a huge win for both builds anyway

[jade hemlock]

seems quite simple at times so not sure if im doing the wrong thing outside of maintaining bleeds, using shivs, trying to pool etc

[winged sun]

you do need to pool on bleed build

generally above 50% energy

supercharger is quite the opposite

[jade hemlock]

pooling above 50% seems odd, might just be my gear though but between applying all three builds and such it seems like im not that high on energy

[haughty flicker]

well yeah you afk a lot

watch something on your other monitor

[winged sun]

well this is important for bleed build

also

envenom does dogwater dmg

[desert crest]

It is better to afk such that u are above 50% then spam envenoms

[winged sun]

on bleed build

so

[royal lantern]

eeeeeeeeehhhhhhhhh

Sanguine Blades on ST is like, a VERY minor gain on bleed

like, very minor

its in the 0,4-0,5% range iirc

[haughty flicker]

gains are gains brother

[winged sun]

if its 0.5% thats quite alot

for a minmax

[haughty flicker]

https://tenor.com/view/hell-yeah-brother-gif-17304177560137676116

[winged sun]

most minmaxes are within 0.5-1%

[spice surge]

Youre still sending during Shivs anyway

[terse stirrup]

explaine this pls

[west smelt]

I'm finding the bleed build quite hard in high target count pulls like meadery first room (which sucks because that's the main reason to run sin from my perspective as a sub enjoyer), I'm changing target so much spreading ruptures outside of IC that I'm completely losing my caustic/death mark target. Do I just need to change my plates or am I focusing too much on spreading ruptures or what?

[winged sun]

you need to generally be above 50% energy

with bleed build

for ur bleeds to hit harder

its a minor gain

good gain

[terse stirrup]

skills consume +2 energy in aplication?

[royal lantern]

you spread, but you dont spread to literally everything, and espacially not to the small guys that die kinda fast anyway

[jade hemlock]

i always focus my prio target

then that way whenever i move around for kicks or whatnot i can just target my focus which has my mark on it

[spice surge]

Every tick

[royal lantern]

like, you always need to think about what stuff will actually still be alive in 12seconds after you used rupture on it

[scenic kraken]

How can I log my dungeons so I can link them and get some advice on improving?

[winged sun]

@spice surge i rly like bleed build in 14-16 key range

in keys that bleed build shines at

[terse stirrup]

every tick consume 2 energy when above 50% energy?

[winged sun]

i rly dislike it in higher keys not sure

[royal lantern]

logging dungeons is a bit weird

[winged sun]

i just gain like

[royal lantern]

yes

[winged sun]

1 minute of key timer

just by going supercharger

[terse stirrup]

Ty

[winged sun]

biggest key where u really see supercharger have a really big difference in comparison to bleed build btw, is priory

[desert crest]

https://tenor.com/view/well-then-gif-16132173200161977629

[winged sun]

if you really want to see what i mean exactly

try to time a priory, lets say +17

with the bleed build

you might always run low on timer at the end and deplete due to having no time

[jade hemlock]

wich dungeons would you go bleed for vs hybrid?

[winged sun]

we kinda tried the key around 5-6 times with me playing master assassin

and we 1 shotted it with supercharger with 1.5 mins left +3 deaths too

i think priory has a huge impact with supercharger build

its definitely necessary there

[jade hemlock]

I just did a prio and i think that boss dmg would have been huge

[winged sun]

considering there are alot of footmens that really fuck up whatever burst you have

so supercharger has really good consistent dmg

[jade hemlock]

bleed seems so easy to start of and pump but with procs and such ive bursted way higher as hybrid

[winged sun]

basically forever

[royal lantern]

what procs lol

[bleak sun]

ok bleed build is fine in 14

[coral hollow]

You think the comp might Changes this? I mean how much gain do you have playing a physical comp for bleed build compared to the Meta comp

[west smelt]

Maybe I'm overvaluing rupture as a way to spend combo points then, I just figured that evenom doesn't really do much in aoe without poison bomb etc

[royal lantern]

why poison bomb

the aoe dmg from envenom is spatter

[west smelt]

Oh yeah

I'm dumb

[indigo sphinx]

It makes a lot of sense to me in priory with a lot of comps, but where are you do you seeing it be more value in other dungeons?

[royal lantern]

like, again you wanna spread stuff, but you dont wanna sit there spamming fok fok rupture for 30seconds straight

[terse stirrup]

I think he meant wanting to spend CP on Envenom, but it would be better to spend it on Rupture in his view

[winged sun]

i think master assassin kingsbane in cinderbrew is quite good, so u can play both builds in there imo, you might want to run supercharger in motherlode if u aren't playing sub since its good for boss dmg

i ended 1st boss at 4.12m st as sin with it, i did have lust and pi though

i think 4.12m is quite alot for sin

[jade hemlock]

are you dropping subterfuge and vanish charge talents to get recup and supercharger

[winged sun]

i did however abuse 1 bug in that fight which i cant mention

[haughty flicker]

[jade hemlock]

Thank you

[winged sun]

i think this build is hard to play in motherlode

i dont recommend if ur new on it

its very good in priory though

[indigo sphinx]

Ya I mean to be clear, this is for specific shit where you need the ST in high keys

[winged sun]

this is a 100% recommendation for priory no matter ur comp and pulls ur doing

[indigo sphinx]

Or it’s just bad

[winged sun]

thats if u care about key timer ofcourse

(high keys)

[winged sun]

yes

this is not recommended in +10 keys up to +15

[lusty surge]

damn too bad yyou cant get to lightweight shiv there

[jade hemlock]

understood, makes sense.

[indigo sphinx]

Ye do not play this shit in your weekly keys lmao

[elfin flame]

i feel like i disagree, or at least it's not convincing enough for that to be the case

but also

[desert crest]

Should be fine to troll in weekly

[elfin flame]

i havebn't played that build in a priory

[winged sun]

i have tried priory so many times

in high keys

im very confident to say that its necessary for timer

[indigo sphinx]

It definitely does depend on comp, but there is a place for it

[elfin flame]

also also i do think it depends on comp

yuh

[indigo sphinx]

Ye

[winged sun]

i really dont think its comp dependant

because i did more overall than udk

in that run

[indigo sphinx]

Yeah but you need the different damage profiles for it to make sense no?

[elfin flame]

more so with regards to the types of damage profiles

[keen spruce]

same as every season, get get big enough, need to kill important mob or boss, ST get gud. People just don't want to admit that their push keys are like 5 levels lower than necessary for a prio/ST build.

With the bleed build now out performing in ST vs a normal hybrid build though that level is pushed even higher. and if you're asking about builds then you probably aren't doing keys that need it

[terse stirrup]

one more rupture have priority above envenom in bleed build?

[winged sun]

oh heres a +17 floodgates btw

it really does good aoe

[indigo sphinx]

100%

[elfin flame]

like if u have another prio class in there maybe u dont need it as much? assuming it does more prio then the other specs? which i dont even know to be the case

[keen spruce]

and if you are doing keys that need it then you're already know about it

or are work shopping stuff like this anyways

[winged sun]

true

this build im talking about is not good in most keys that u guys are doing

if anything, a rough example of how bad it is for a low key

[keen spruce]

if a captain mob can't survive a kingsbane then the value falls off pretty heavily

or at least most of one

[winged sun]

i did outlaw dps on 1st pull in workshop in this build, it really isn't a build to play in some situations at different key levels

it ONLY works at +17s and above

i think it is good in 16s too

[indigo sphinx]

Yeah but regardless it sims so far behind in AoE for so many reasons regardless of how long the mob lasts

[winged sun]

its definitely bad in 15s and below

[elfin flame]

part of me wonders if like the viability of supercharge build comes from it being easier to play. less target swapping since ur just envenom bot

[indigo sphinx]

You can only play this build if you NEED the ST

[elfin flame]

like when i play bleed build

im pre sure

[indigo sphinx]

And can’t get it from somewhere else

[elfin flame]

im playing it at maybe like

80% of its potential

bc im overwhelmed by target swapping

[winged sun]

i personally find both builds easy to play

[indigo sphinx]

Nah there is no way, bleed is 100% easier to play haha

[west smelt]

Does that mean at a high enough key sub just becomes insane

[winged sun]

its just me playing 12 hrs a day so who am i to compare

people are leaning into bleed build for sure because of how easy it is

its definitely very very easy to play

[indigo sphinx]

Also because it is just performing better than normal hybrid in the majority of areas

It’s kinda win win

[winged sun]

it only performs better in low keys imo

not in higher keys

[thorn thorn]

You have great taste in profile pics

[keen spruce]

mouse over macros

are your friend

[elfin flame]

i use them

[winged sun]

i couldn't nail off hybrid build dps in floodgates at all with bleedbuild/supercharger (up to 2nd boss)

[elfin flame]

but even so

[keen spruce]

assas just easy compared to outlaw

in general

[elfin flame]

big pulls with hella nameplates it becomes hard tracking and applying bleeds to the correct targets

[royal lantern]

not really

the higher you go, the more extreme the differences get bettwen the specs that are good at 1 thing and mediocre at another, and the FotM specs that are good everywhere

[elfin flame]

for me at least

[keen spruce]

assas just kinda easy period though

[desert crest]

Yeah idk why peps are saying that it is easy to spot the specific mobs missing a rupture in a pack of 15

[winged sun]

i did more than 20m dps on 1st pull floodgates pre 4% buff with much less ilvl

and u barely can do that with bleed build in a +17/18

with ucrrent ilvl

and

+4% buff

[keen spruce]

yeah getting a good plater profile is super important to make MO macros efficient

[winged sun]

ty

[keen spruce]

why did I get profanity filtered

what did I say

[winged sun]

wtf is this

my table started floating

jeff wtf

[elfin flame]

i also noticed this, bleed build burst seems worse

or at least

i hit higher peaks with kb and DM

[royal lantern]

i mean, thats not true?

[elfin flame]

on floodgate first pull for example

[sour void]

Try that doing in the boomer age grp it's literally a magic trick

[desert crest]

nahh yeah fuck me it doesn't have scent

[royal lantern]

bleed bursts higher with deathmark

[winged sun]

it does have less burst

[royal lantern]

cus bleeds actually do something there

[spice surge]

Not on big aoe no

[hollow river]

terrible, terrible bad words

[royal lantern]

well, are we in aoe or ST now lol

[hollow river]

[keen spruce]

[spice surge]

Aoe

[keen spruce]

I was talking about how it's hard to use mouseover if you have bad nameplates cuz they start stacking and wiggling around

idk what flagged moroes

[winged sun]

bleed build prob will have higher burst if the pack is low hp, eg : +10 key due to sudden demise

[keen spruce]

[haughty flicker]

why is shmeeps saying bad things

[keen spruce]

[winged sun]

most of the time, hybrid build does too much dmg it just overkills the pack

[royal lantern]

glorp react him

[winged sun]

so its bad in low keys

bleed build kinda gives u full value on overkilling a pack

[spice surge]

I mean you can just demise with your refreshed bleeds regardless of key level

[winged sun]

which is rly good in low keys

[spice surge]

But its gonna be less % of overall sure

[winged sun]

one more thing ngl, its legit impossible to restealth in high keys

especially in a key like cinderbrew

you really need to be pressing W 24/7

[elfin flame]

that does bode better for supercharger

[spice surge]

Does it though

[winged sun]

not exactly ngl

[spice surge]

You still need 5 scents

[winged sun]

i think hybrid just does good

[spice surge]

Before you start envenom

[winged sun]

in cinder

[elfin flame]

well ur not talented into MA

in super

[winged sun]

u mean restealth?

[spice surge]

No

[indigo sphinx]

[coral ibex]

you still need to manually spread 5 ruptures when chaining regardless of playing hybrid or bleed

is eleem's point

[winged sun]

idk who ur replying to

[coral ibex]

unless im wrong

[tall atlas]

!spark

[spice surge]

Yes, so it takes longer before you start envenoming, whereas ct just goes anyway

[winged sun]

ye i mean u can easily restealth in 1st area, but in the candle area

with the blobs spawning

its legit cancer

i think they removed the blobs spawning from the big guy, i havent tested that one yet

[elfin flame]

i guess tru. idk which spec loses the least from losing restealths

[winged sun]

definitely supercharger, if u mean which build

suffers the least

[tall atlas]

go nelf bro

[elfin flame]

ya

[winged sun]

because u just save vanish for refreshing bleeds

[west smelt]

I find ML hard to get stealth, there's the mech pilots who just get pulled into the next pack and the mines in the last section kept screwing me as well

[winged sun]

for supercharger

so ur not losing anything

xdd

[elfin flame]

ok but if we're saying supercharger what was the point of this

[spice surge]

You use vanish to refresh bleeds regardless of build though??

[elfin flame]

im lost but unrelated note

and i think a W for bleed build

is that i think it loses the least damage

from having to run out to do mechanic

like

most ur dam is in ur bleeds

[tall atlas]

whens the eleem dungeon guide/ gameplay commentary coming?

[elfin flame]

so if u cant maintain uptime

u lose least

[winged sun]

when are u gonna run out to do a mechanic

im confused

[elfin flame]

idk if that's true but feelscraft it seems that way

[tall atlas]

i see whis spying on us from his phone

[winged sun]

legit never happens

[tall atlas]

touch some grass bro

[elfin flame]

darkflame cleft overseers, candle dudes after first boss

as example

[winged sun]

thats legit fake run out tho lol

also u play sub in darkflame

fuck sin there

[elfin flame]

wym fake??

[west smelt]

Last boss of flood ||this is a thinly veiled attempt for you to tell me how to do the sparks without loads of downtime||

[winged sun]

u just run out for 1 second and shadowstep on 2nd boss

same with 3rd boss

legit nowhere else where u have to run away

and lose real dps

[winged sun]

u swap to sub for last 2 bosses

i assume we're still on the topic of very high keys

[vital flicker]

kujo

[winged sun]

ye u play sub there sin legit fucks the floor in that boss

lmao

[elfin flame]

is it rly sub?? i was wondering if it might be outlaw

all the specs feel kinda bad in there

[winged sun]

no outlaw is bad there

[winged sun]

zac will probably eat you alive if u say that to his face

[spice surge]

Theyll buff sub so its sub everywhere soon enough

[winged sun]

surely

ngl sub is rly good

u do 30m 1st pull workshop

legit udk dps

[spice surge]

Its not great in raid so its likely it gets buffed

[winged sun]

i rly hope so man

i think sub is really good in high keys

especially if they buff it

[spice surge]

Wasnt buffed this tuning though for fuck knows why

[elfin flame]

nah first pull workshop i spend most of it looking for my transmitter no way im pulling 30mil

[winged sun]

man the prepatch nerf

was so sad

[royal lantern]

oh ye, could use some small adjustments

OR, you know, actually putting some fucking effort into it

[winged sun]

im having so much fun with sub

legit my favorite rogue spec

rn

[west smelt]

Get your PvP trink

[spice surge]

Just loot a mythic house of cards bro

[elfin flame]

ok bro

[vital flicker]

just buy house of cards off of whoever actually wins the roll

[spice surge]

Ye but im not delusional enough to be expecting that

[winged sun]

@earnest remnant ilvl check?

[spice surge]

Its just gonna be tuning

[winged sun]

no way

sub

is the least in wowlogs

LOL

im so happy about that holy shit

no way

[keen spruce]

it's always just tuning

[winged sun]

dude no way man

we really need a buff

surely we get one

right?!?!?

[keen spruce]

doesn't matter if a spec is dog ass scuffed to play

if number big enough

it gets played

[vital flicker]

nah another 4% aura buff to sin

[winged sun]

ngl i'd rock an envenom buff

would be fun af

[royal lantern]

?

nobody plays rogue

sub is unpopular even for rogue, nobody plays it really when its not numberwise objectively the best option

and it started as the best rogue spec and then kinda went away

like, not suprising

[vital flicker]

sub is popular (for rogues), it's outlaw that nobody plays rn

[winged sun]

ye thats true they might just disband rogue for a while

[earnest remnant]

Haven’t been playing the last 2 weeks so nothing has changed

[winged sun]

rogue is just that class that nobody plays unless its turbo broken

ah

[royal lantern]

nah, outlaw was the mosat popular spec on rogue for a long time

its just that the DF outlaw playstyle is VERY extreme, people either like it or really hate it and dont wanna play Outlaw anymore

and Trickster is making it even worse for outlaw

[winged sun]

im rly sad about sub man i hope we get a buff soon

[earnest remnant]

And likely won’t be playing for a good bit

[royal lantern]

even when its turbo broken the numbers stay low

[vital flicker]

I jsut mean currently not historically

[coral ibex]

sub is as popular in raid as frost dk and feral druid

assa is almost 3x as popular

as sub

outlaw and sub are closer in participation and combined are just over half of assa participation

[winged sun]

ngl not when outlaw is broken

[royal lantern]

tbh, doesnt help that outlaw is forced into the shitshow that is trickster killing spree

[winged sun]

if outlaw becomes op op

like

[royal lantern]

like, who the fuck wants to play that

[winged sun]

legit

everyone plays it

[coral ibex]

more people would play rogue if our hero talents were literal dog ass

[winged sun]

it becomes a huge mess in outlaw channel

[winged sun]

most true comment 2025

we were complaining about them since tww alpha

[coral ibex]

the only good one is deathstalker and even that is bugged months in

[winged sun]

but

we got nothing

[royal lantern]

deathstalker isnt even good

like, for sub deathstalker sucks hard

[coral ibex]

muh fazed uptime

[haughty flicker]

good is a strong word

[spice surge]

Deathstalker wasnt even in alpha for more than like 3 days

[haughty flicker]

its ok on sin

but its actually garbage on sub

[spice surge]

Literally last second addition

[hollow river]

Sub trickster is the only good one

[royal lantern]

like, yeha, deathstalker is OK on sin cus it kinda exists and thats it

for sub it scks

[coral ibex]

i mean

[winged sun]

ngl only hero ttree i like

is DS

rest are bad

[haughty flicker]

i like frostfire

[spice surge]

It could be way better with very minor adjustments too

[royal lantern]

fatebound sucks in general

trickster on outlaw is hilarious in what a shitshow it is

[haughty flicker]

[coral ibex]

we have 2 specs that have 1 usable hero talent and 1 spec with none

[hollow river]

Yeh

[winged sun]

sin deathstalker is rly good too but only in m+

[spice surge]

Like its clearly lacking polish, but i agree it works

[west smelt]

Please for the love of GOD I just want coup to be a normal gcd length

[hollow river]

I just don’t like how mark is applied, it gets clunky at times

[coral ibex]

whoever came up with fatebound should be < redacted >

[royal lantern]

its just frustrating to watch other classes get entire hero tree reworks in the first major patch, while we once again sit there and know that nothing will happen

[vestal cliff]

DS and Fatebound are so boring its sad

[winged sun]

ye sure

i just like the concept of big funnel

[spice surge]

For sub deathstalker its unironically a dps increase to cancelaura macro darkest night in dance on aoe

[hollow river]

Aldrachi tree stomps deathstalker imo

[spice surge]

So you can continue to BP

[royal lantern]

if no mark is active, rupture applies it

Like, just fucking do it, just add that part to it

[coral ibex]

ive been leveling an evoker to play dev in raid and its hilarious how much better all of the evoker hero talent trees are

[royal lantern]

it would solve so many mark application problems

[haughty flicker]

evoker hero trees do go hard

flameshaper is a lot of fun

[winged sun]

cant u just re apply mark and ignore cancelling darkest night?

[west smelt]

DS is pretty much the only hero tree with flavour which is neat

[spice surge]

The mark bonuses doesnt work when darkest night is active (aka the plague damage proc)

[royal lantern]

what flavor? stronger auto attacks?

[winged sun]

oh

u mean

[spice surge]

And you ideally want to strike other targets

[coral ibex]

they're never gonna fix the DN+marks bug

[winged sun]

ah i see

[spice surge]

To get more clear the witnesses

[coral ibex]

im 100% doomed on it

[winged sun]

they need to make darkest night be consumed by blackpowder

otherwise its just a shitshow rotation

again, dont think any dev even played rogue this tier

[royal lantern]

ofc not, they will add another shity halfbaked system on top of it for midnight and "hero talents" will be left to rot until they get removed when Last Titan is over

[winged sun]

so

its not surprising

[rancid wind]

I'm really digging the bleed build in M+, is there anythign equivalent for raiding?

[west smelt]

That would put death mark on everything

That sounds insane

[winged sun]

i find it extraordinary to not have a single dev

play rogue

with like

10% passion

[spice surge]

Unfortunately not no

[royal lantern]

no? you still have a target

[rancid wind]

unlucky

[royal lantern]

like, it should just apply it on your current target

[winged sun]

well that just shouldn't be the design they can always tweak things

im not worried about hey this thing might be broken

because it just wont be

if they really tried

they can just let the mark reapply at the initial target or just ur main target

[royal lantern]

you should not be worried simply because blizz 99% of the time doesnt care and just releases stuff anyway

[winged sun]

ur main target is definitely ideal

[royal lantern]

and then you flip a coin if it stays that way or not

[winged sun]

blizzard's been rly annoying this expansion ngl

[royal lantern]

sooo many avoidable shitshows

like

[vital flicker]

I just want darkest night to be a perma-buff whenever you don't have a mark up, why does it have to go away at all, and it would fix the problem of anything going immune and the bug where you just don't get darkest night

[winged sun]

its the same as DF season 2 where they just throw shit things and alt f4 till season 3

literally every season 2 has been really bad in wow imo

legit every s2

since legion

[silver wharf]

If I'm making keys + 16, what build do you recommend?

[royal lantern]

how cna you fuck numbers up so hard that disc priest can spamm apply shields that are stronger then the MW monk External CD

HOW does that slip past you

do they never look at numbers when making stuff and think for 3 seconds "wait that actually sounds too high?"

[winged sun]

u can try both and see what works best

it also depends on the key

i personally like hybrid more for higher keys

even tho both suck at high keys anyway, i think 16s are abit low with our current ilvl so u can get away with playing bleed build for sure

you're prob better off playing bleed build

[bronze pike]

what rogue needs to be popular

is more v isuals

and ya know

a few seasons back to back of it being turbo broken

so shake off the community perception it has

[royal lantern]

i mean

the community perception is "rogue is broken" anyway

lol

[bronze pike]

every popular spec is usually also brain dead rotationally

[bronze pike]

true lol

but its not broken

[winged sun]

most rogue players are good at the game ngl

[royal lantern]

the average WoW player thinks that rogue is a 20000000000000IQ class with 42356234691661 buttons in their rotation and that Outlaw is the strongest M+ spec in the game

lol

[winged sun]

so whenever people see a rogue playing

its usually hes performing better than other players

[vital flicker]

that makes me the minority

[winged sun]

even when its worse

[bronze pike]

tramatized by tripple outlaw comp in bfa

[coral ibex]

people in my guild still get mad in voice when i bring up rogue balance as if they're still in BFA

[winged sun]

same with DF s3

[royal lantern]

YEP

[winged sun]

triple outlaw throne of the tides +30

r1 world

[bronze pike]

tot was

a dungeon

one of the dungeons of allll time

[royal lantern]

"bro this thing sucks and they should fix it"

"OH SHUT UP, ROGUE DOESNT NEED TO BE BROKEN EVERYWHERE FOR ONCE"

during fucking SL launch

where rogue was legit unplayable lol

[coral ibex]

literally exactly what one guy said during prog the other night

i was just complaining about dsm marks

being janky sometimes

[royal lantern]

well, my current guild is more like "yeha X thing sucks for you, but its rogue, so nobody really cares much because nobody plays it"

which is the truest thing you can say

[bronze pike]

meanwhile the newest casual ret take is

[winged sun]

ok ngl u saying nobody plays rogue literally made me realize that its a thing

its a sad reality

[royal lantern]

but yeha, better visuals

or like, visuals in the first place

would do HUGE parts in rogue popularity

[bronze pike]

:templar is to complex, and ret is to clunky"

[winged sun]

we need ramfam back

and jpc

[bronze pike]

yep

[winged sun]

otherwise

nobody's playing rogue

[royal lantern]

i mean, it kinda has been true since forever

rogue is a class that has dedicated players, but its playerbase was always low

[winged sun]

@sand sigil we need to pump the rogue numbers up man bring up ur streams back cuh wtf

[bronze pike]

low fantasy class

even tho

[sand sigil]

BACK SOON camera just came today

[bronze pike]

you have sub making shadowclones

[sand sigil]

but fr can realz buff this class

[winged sun]

POOOOOOOOOOOOOG

[sand sigil]

like whats goin on

[winged sun]

IDK MAN

[royal lantern]

and in DF/TWW they pushed easy gearing for alts aswell, so you have even less "class mains"

way more people just FotM roll now, cus why not if you wanna do high level stuff

[winged sun]

we miss you tho

rogue's been bad without you

[sand sigil]

this dk spec is like braindead too its just 2 buttons

[winged sun]

lmao

[sand sigil]

like why is it always the specs that press 2 buttons that get to do infinite aoe

[winged sun]

[royal lantern]

the better part is when you realise that, and then notice how many people STILL fuck it up and do horrible dmg

@bronze pike its like

make secret technique a ability with a unique animation and not just "lol ambush again", and make the Shadows actually visible and do stuff

make BtE feel like a big hit, give it a explosion on the enemys face or smth like that

Make Kingsbane a green build up on the enemy that gets bigger and bigger and then explodes at the last tick (where it does most dmg)

like, ANYTHING to make the big hits actually feel like bigger stuff

it would help so much in making more people interested in the class

instead of just 60% of rogue abilitys being the Ambush animation

FILTER HIT

[normal mist]

nah

it was help

[gusty mirage]

mfers out here pretending like its their first rodeo

rogue just can't ever be good without some sort of bug

[royal lantern]

you are good

:3

[gusty mirage]

nah I'm washed

and sick af

[haughty flicker]

Didn’t wash enough ig

Unlucky

[bronze pike]

i agree

thats why i love killing spree

[autumn frost]

I'm starting to feel as I get higher keys the need for more damage

[bronze pike]

its the only visual outlaw has

other than rtb

it needs

more shit

make sin more green and explode with red and green

[autumn frost]

i wonder if I should drop iron wire

[runic hinge]

not if you're pugging

[rancid wind]

Is there any way to make it more obvious when a mob can see through stealth? the blue circle is constantly hidden by nameplates

[spice spire]

Real

[cerulean walrus]

You just gotta know
Big mob? Yeah that shit has true sight

Everything has true sight these days

[solar wyvern]

17 rookery and dfc are too hard, priory? Peace of cake first try one shot

Sapping and pulling two caster packs at once is op af

[drifting cloud]

[balmy condor]

big gamer

[snow hamlet]

[uneven plume]

@balmy condor We stay over 150 energy in pure ST?

for bleed

[humble verge]

15 flood, not bad

only 77% uptime on CT :(

[thorn thorn]

Pumper

[humble verge]

i went into the key not expecting anything lol

i felt my shivs were bad

47 shivs

30 minutes

13 shivs lost somewhere

sadge

[tall atlas]

is shiv mega huge popega in bleed?

[humble verge]

it basically makes your damage do more damage

[tall atlas]

oshi

[humble verge]

u not read the tooltip? :(

[tall atlas]

nah i do

i press it a lot

[humble verge]

[tall atlas]

just dont read this religiously so need the tldr

[worthy rose]

Man I just got resilient keystones 12’ing everything as assassination

Pretty based

[keen spruce]

so handsome

[worthy rose]

@winged sun ‘s build he posted the other day doing wonders

The zeros recommended build 😂

[balmy condor]

yes

you obviously spend during shiv/darkest night though, those are high prio

it's just being above 50% when nothing is happening

[humble verge]

@balmy condor im 100% in on bleed build now

i have forsaketh hybrid

[tall atlas]

is this the same in aoe?

[wise plume]

i sim'd lethal dose only having 1 point and putting the other in iron wire for bleed, and it was like a 3.4% dps decrease

[balmy condor]

in aoe you have infinite energy

[humble verge]

wtf

why is causal playing voidelf

[tall atlas]

yeah fair, thank you

[humble verge]

is it for raid?

[earnest remnant]

Mugzee yes

[humble verge]

we cant step through i guess?

[earnest remnant]

Not when the walls are up no

[humble verge]

kk

wait what

casual is in a band

no wonder i havent seen his stream up

[true nexus]

man i wish iron wire was easier to take i miss it from bfa

[knotty summit]

!macro

[prisma monolith]

Shiv/Tea Macro
With this you will not accidently use more than 1 charge of tea if youre spamming:

/cast Shiv 
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null

Assassination uses no other macro aside from standard Deathmark+Potion+Racial+Trinket

[wide ferry]

Once we get the ring is ther any reason to go back to sirens isle lol

[cerulean walrus]

If you want the meta achievement mount I guess

Or the appearances

If you don’t care about that then no

[gray sleet]

Are sims bugged for Assassination?

how am i only simmin 2M

and i sim 2.3 with OT

[balmy condor]

wdym how

outlaw sims higher

that's how it is

[gray sleet]

but according to the rankings Assa is top compared to Assa

[balmy condor]

which rankings

[storm forum]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[solar wyvern]

Im inclined to believe that using deathmark at 4 mins as you start mugzee intermission is better than waiting 5% hp so you can utilize the last 15 seconds of lingering darkness during the final seconds of the fight. Am i cooked for this?

[hollow talon]

ass just sims kind of low

my alt drood sims like 350k higher

[hidden bay]

[balmy condor]

assa sims are fine

[hidden bay]

Only fine sims are dh sims, assa got lazy guys

[balmy condor]

hate you sm

[drifting cloud]

dont be like that pookie

[long hawk]

Sims fine for me idk what you’re on about

Unless your definition of low is very different

[hollow talon]

i just mean compared to some other specs

[solar wyvern]

I mean i do find it strange how assa can sim 2.1m and then hit 2.4-5m on a fight like sprocket which is a 5.5 min patchwork

But I've just come to yo accept this reality

[drifting cloud]

6% aura isnt in sim and surely you sim 2.2 or higher

[coral ibex]

nah i sim at like 2.2 in ST

[drifting cloud]

then you got rng

[coral ibex]

with fatebound

671 ilvl

[solar wyvern]

Oh yeah im actually completely dumb and forgor about the 6%

2hr of sleep brain functioning don't mind me

[gritty laurel]

sim is also showing average dps on a spec that has 10%+ variance

[balmy condor]

13% with deathstalker

very high number

[dawn heath]

10% variance that is so consistant? If you are talking lowest hs highest iteration

Im pretty sure most classes have a almost 25-30 % variance on a 5 min sim

Last time i simmed my havoc the lowest iteration was 2.0 and the highest 3.1mil and my sim median 2.54

[bronze pike]

gotta get pink bikini set

almost summer

[low thicket]

Hot Rogue Summer?

[grim vigil]

does anyone know what happens when you use cursed haste enchant on ring, but you have 0 vers 😄

[thorn thorn]

60% when using auto tea

[snow hamlet]

Still 0

[grim vigil]

so you get 390 haste but dont lose vers

isnt that cheating

[balmy condor]

you get 75 bonus secondary yes

[snow hamlet]

First you can’t get 0 vers cus 4p

[grim vigil]

yes u can 😄

i dont use gloves

sry i asked for my ret

ret discord just asleep

[balmy condor]

in the hypothetical where 0 vers is optimal, which it isn't, and you manage to have 0 vers, which you shouldn't, and there is literally no upgrades left, which there are

you would gain like 300 dps

pog

[snow hamlet]

Head and chest

[grim vigil]

i rather have a smoother rotation with more haste than having a tiny bit more vers and a 0.0009 dps increase

thats just me

[coral ibex]

390 haste really making an enormous difference in your rotation

[grim vigil]

yea yall right, anyways have a good one

[balmy condor]

Not even 390 haste

75 haste

Cause the alternative is 315 haste

Bro is getting that S Tier GameplayFeel™️ from a bonus 0.12% haste

Incredible work

[bronze pike]

only spec

that haste has a actual feelable impact in

is vdh

but people stack verse in that

cause muh dr

[grim vigil]

did you just assume i used 315 haste enchants? the audacity

.D

[thorn thorn]

Whispyr made many assumptions but that may be one

[grim vigil]

wrong, you want a good amount of haste on ret to easily keep up divine hammer for infinite duration for example

[bronze pike]

i do that with my peener while sleeping

i am ret main

[obtuse ruin]

also MM hunters

[bronze pike]

[grim vigil]

nobody believes that

[bronze pike]

ew

hunter

memes aside

you still just sim for ret

[grim vigil]

go dummy use 5k haste show me uptime divine hammer

[thorn thorn]

Also enh cuz haste is higher value than mainstat cuz spec is dumb as fuck

[bronze pike]

cause no amount of haste will make a difference

unless your like

25-30% in

[grim vigil]

mate dizr spoke about this on his stream

[bronze pike]

and even then that sounds like your inting all your other stats for more dh uptime thus inting your dam

[grim vigil]

pretty sure he know what hes talking about

[bronze pike]

pog i have 30% haste

why ios my crit so low?

[slate crown]

Are you saying their feelings are invalid and wrong?

[grim vigil]

we are not speaking about stacking haste, i mentioned a "good amount" to have fluid rotaion and dh uptime

[balmy condor]

Yes actually

[bronze pike]

having low crit makes your eh do less cleave and damage in general

so ya

[grim vigil]

you ppl come up with random shit to prove your point 😄

[bronze pike]

for the cost of more dh uptime

that you can get anyways if you game your tierset

[grim vigil]

NOBODY WAS TALKING ABOUT THAT 😄

[bronze pike]

the "good" amount will always be at a level where your sacking all your other stats

like again

[grim vigil]

you argue with ghosts mate 😄

[bronze pike]

30% minimum

of haste

which is a loss in other secondary

[grim vigil]

yapp yapp yapp

[bronze pike]

uyltimately the point is

[slate crown]

https://tenor.com/view/plastic-man-real-real-powder-powder-that-makes-you-say-real-animated-comic-plastic-man-gif-7493651428267836743

[bronze pike]

sim yourself cause seocndary stats dont matter on ret

[grim vigil]

"simm yourself hurr burr"

[bronze pike]

atleast not in the level your assuming

[balmy condor]

I’m at least happy to see people coping about haste on specs that aren’t assa for once

[thorn thorn]

Vibes clearly more important

[grim vigil]

im not assuming anything

the fuck is wrong with you 😄

[balmy condor]

Go have your haste man no one’s stopping you

I’m glad you’re enjoying the game

[slate crown]

Unironically this is the truth, but you can only embrace this if you also admit that they are vibes and that they are also the most important

[bronze pike]

ya

[grim vigil]

thx whispyr

[bronze pike]

your sub not mine

it just a silly loss of dam for something you dont really feel 🤷

anyways back to tankin

[grim vigil]

you argue with ghosts mate

ggs

[coral ibex]

[snow hamlet]

[thorn thorn]

Nodders

But also

[dense shadow]

so bleed s looking to be the way s2 goes?

[thorn thorn]

Some people get way too caught up in “feels like its important” or “feels like this is right”

When in reality they only feel like a fucking idiot

Cuz who gives a fuq

[balmy condor]

Such is the way of buffs

[dense shadow]

oh hi , i just finished watching your vid lmao

[thorn thorn]

Whispyr is chronically online

[balmy condor]

https://tenor.com/view/thanos-snap-inevitable-marvel-avengers-endgame-gif-14599588

[cerulean walrus]

Whispyr never sleeps

He’s too busy blimpin’

[alpine lion]

Is there some sort of haste cap that I should be looking at for raiding as assassination?

[balmy condor]

No

Hilarious timing though given the last 5 minutes in here, I will say

[cerulean walrus]

God that shirt goes so hard

[bronze pike]

whipsyr

whispyr

my feeling vdh today

my destroying every boss rn

in the flow

100% parse trsut

[balmy condor]

Nice

I’m making my Mac and cheese so spicy it’ll burn on both ends and the entire time in between

[coral ibex]

mackin cheebs

[bronze pike]

pogpogpog

[thorn thorn]

We need a channel that is whispyr out of context

[balmy condor]

That’s just this channel

[thorn thorn]

The context exists here somewhere unfortunately

[hidden bay]

[balmy condor]

jealously looks ugly on you herp

chin up king

[hidden bay]

I’ll cry myself into sleep now

[fresh kelp]

quite certain it goes negative

i have had negative haste on sub/ww before

toxic boots back in df

[runic hinge]

same

[alpine lion]

Just going for a 3k push right now, seems like all the top Assassination Rogues focus more on Crit/Mastery, and neglect haste entirely, was just kind of curious if it's a Haste/Mastery situation for raids, and Crit/Mastery for dungeons

[amber brook]

would negative haste make you lose energy instead?

[balmy condor]

haste is pretty good with a bleed build

[balmy condor]

no, haste affects your dot tick rate and your base energy regen at a rate of

baseRate * (1 + haste%)

so 10 energy regen is baseline

if you have 10% haste, that's 10 * 1.1

is 11

if you have -30% haste, it would be 10 * 0.7

so you would still regen, everything would still tick, but it would be less than the base rate

[amber brook]

would be p funny if you lose energy

[jaunty matrix]

Dont give blizz ideas

[buoyant herald]

remember when rushing jade wind was a toggleable energy cost

[cosmic cedar]

how do i get my bleeds to stack in the bar instead on top

[idle inlet]

Where find list of bugs with the spec i know about the dn randomly fucking off but i heard something about if you have darkest night and death stalkers mark active you lose out on benefits from the mark

[balmy condor]

what you're describing is that you cannot consume stacks of the mark while darkest night is active

and it's not really a bug, blizzard changed it to do that on purpose early in season 1

you can argue that it's a bug because it fucks over sub

[idle inlet]

Gotcha so not something to think about when playing poisony bleedy man

[sharp viper]

never played deathstalker sub, do they want to consume stacks as fast as possible?

[balmy condor]

I mean during dance they're constantly shadowstriking

so they always run into darkest night + mark

and then the mark just doesn't decrease

so it just blows very regularly

[sharp viper]

ohhh, I didn't know mark would be applied with strike during dance

[keen pecan]

question - why do RWF rogues go with sub over sin when sin's overall DPS is better?

[gloomy heart]

i played like two days of mage and i kinda miss my rogue now

[dense shadow]

probably playstyle preference

[buoyant herald]

sub has massive burst damage which makes it very strong at doing tasks like bombs on rik, adds on stix, bombs on one arm etc

[balmy condor]

assa has also been buffed twice since the race

[gloomy heart]

can we get a third buff

thanks

[keen pecan]

oh so sub was better before the buffs?

[keen pecan]

that makes sense

[sharp viper]

a lot

[keen pecan]

gotcha

[balmy condor]

assa also got played on mug'zee

during race

[sharp viper]

sub also got nerfed since the rwf iirc

[sharp viper]

because of spatter goon cleave?

[buoyant herald]

and execute ye

[balmy condor]

no because of the execute

the add damage is irrelevant

[sharp viper]

aight

[gloomy heart]

keys feel way harder this season as melee

[balmy condor]

assa is legit like 17% ahead in execute compared to sub

[sharp viper]

I gotta convince my RLs to not put me in the gooning squad once we get there

[balmy condor]

and mug'zee is not a fight until 40%

[sharp viper]

is your guild already on mugzee whispyr?

[buoyant herald]

should be pretty easy, we suck at target swapping and we can do more damage to both adds from spatter off boss that we can to one in the gaol

[balmy condor]

we're on bandit

[sharp viper]

I made the mistake of playing all three rogue specs (despite being ass at sub/outlaw) so they are aware of the possibility at least

gotta pretend I'm a fire mage and can't possibly ever swap

[dense shadow]

any reason the bleed build on wowhead has this ?

[balmy condor]

where else would you put the point

[dense shadow]

no i dea , i was about to re watch you vid as i didnt see it on there

[balmy condor]

yeh idk either

everything above the last 3 rows is just ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[dense shadow]

lol

[balmy condor]

none of that shit matters

you could take shadowrunner or whatever if that makes you feel better idk

[runic hinge]

Nothing matters at all. Entropy comes for us all

[dense shadow]

think ill throw it in instead

[balmy condor]

ah yes, the thing that doesn't work on 80% of slows

[sharp viper]

2% leech while stealthed is goated

[dense shadow]

ffs lmao

[lavish wing]

dear lord, sanguine blades in st feels awful, it turns apm into mpa

[runic hinge]

Yeah a lot of slows are just auras instead of having a duration

[balmy condor]

it only reduces the duration of movement slows if it also doesn't do any damage

so it needs to be a raw, duration, debuff, movement speed slow

nothing else attached

[sharp viper]

that rarely exists atm outside of pvp

[balmy condor]

yeh

[sharp viper]

there's always some stupid dot attached

I think freedom works on some of those effects but not all

[dense shadow]

fine ill take shadow runner for fun then

[balmy condor]

good man

last time when the builds took shadowrunner I was yelled at that rushed setup is a dps increase

[dense shadow]

i mean it is ... i you plan to use it lmao

[balmy condor]

maybe we swap it back and see if people still bitch

I'd hope you plan on using kidney shot

kidney shot is very good

[sharp viper]

kidney shot is the best single target stun, although very costly

[manic anvil]

what does shiv really do for assassination?

[dense shadow]

alot

[sharp viper]

read the talents associated with it

or tooltip

even

[manic anvil]

which are

[runic hinge]

You can search shiv in the talent page

And it highlights

[manic anvil]

thank you for this

[keen pecan]

also this

[lyric vale]

Why the f im low on energy sometimes😭
In raid but sometimes im totally fine

[balmy condor]

spec does that

[lyric vale]

Hmm

[humble verge]

for some reason the details in my map have started to fade, anyone might know the reason as to why? tried to figure out with all and any addons