assassination

[strange sleet]

when the 4pc buff procs when you already have it present

[balmy condor]

Oh you were casting finishers during cashout?

Yikes

[plush isle]

toxic

[strange sleet]

shouldn't I?

[balmy condor]

I mean I appreciate the attempt to help I’m not trying to be toxic

But bro just wasted 42 minutes of his life

[strange sleet]

I was just trying for myself

but since I have it I may as well share it

[balmy condor]

All g then but yeh your numbers are unusable

Can’t lose winning streak during cashout

So even if we didn’t already know the chance, there’s no way of knowing how often you might’ve lost the streak hypothetically

So all the numbers are just doomed

[bright cipher]

sup

[balmy condor]

Greetings warlock

[plush isle]

why do all other speccs get mostly aura buffs/nerfs and we get the niche shit all of the time ?

[bright cipher]

[balmy condor]

We got a fuck ton of aura buffs in the past

Having specific buffs is for sure better

Nathria

[strange sleet]

mmm not sure if this makes sense or not. SInce you can't lose the streak, you just ignore the refreshes no?

[balmy condor]

Assa got NINE aura buffs in nathria

[bright cipher]

get aura buffs > complain its not specific buff
get specific buff > complain its not aura buff

but also i am a bit spitefull of blizzard this time so f the company.

i miss Nathria

give me back Denathrius as a story villain

[balmy condor]

You could, but it makes the data dirty regardless

[strange sleet]

why, Isn't not casting anything during cashout = ignore cashout refresshes?

[balmy condor]

aura buffs shouldn’t exist

[plush isle]

To me it seems more like you're not satisfied with the basic orientation of the class, when you do these aura buffs it seems to me like you're satisfied but the output just isn't right.

[spice spire]

These specific buffs make 0 sense fwiw

[balmy condor]

Yeh guess that’s true

[spice spire]

Maybe the rupture buff is in the right direction?

[balmy condor]

All the buffs are in the right direction

Except arterial idk what they’re cooking for that

Like rupture buff yes

[bright cipher]

I think there is a place for aura buffs, just like there is a place for specific buffs, they just seems to use them with not much consideration.

"oh we have time/resource to dedicate to spec/class A: specific shit even if the class/spec just wants/need higher numbers" and "Oh spec wants/needs specific shit? too bad its not their time to get resource/time dedicated to them 5% aura buff".

[balmy condor]

CT sure, I mean I think it’s plenty strong but yeh

Sudden demise definitely needed the buff considering it’s like the premiere m+ talent and was getting dropped 24/7

Capstone entirely designed around m+ getting dropped for some middle row talent is uh

Definitely something

[balmy condor]

That’s why they shouldn’t exist

I don’t trust blizzard with a tuning knob that broad

[spice spire]

I mean yeah but from play the AoE was fine.
I’m still hung up on CT buff. Like of all abilities that was one I was thinking would not get touched for sure. But here we are

[bright cipher]

https://i.imgur.com/ulckavm.png but for exemple, this here is a good exemple of an aura buff

previous buffs/nerfs were specific and made rider vs san'layn close to each other (before san'layn was like 10%+ better than rider) but this came at the cost of San'layn (the better results) /unholy becoming weaker due to a nerf to death coil ... so instead of buffing specific stuff and making 1 hero talent better than the other again.

so now, with this aura buff, san'layn and rider are about as strong as what san'layn was before

[strange sleet]

If anything I thought CT would get nerfed 😮

But I feel assa is ok in M+, minus the shit ST

[balmy condor]

I wasn’t expecting it either but moving finisher damage away from envenom is a win in my book

As long as it doesn’t bring ct into single target

But imo that should get addressed by changing the damage per target scaling number and not just smattering a buff on the whole thing

Like make it 25% instead of 20% or whatever

[spice spire]

Sure I can agree to that one but that was also kind of my thought as well,
Buffing the bleeds of the spec is something I definitely want to lean into since we’ve become envenom the spec for the 4th tier in a row.
But yeah idk. Hoping garrote gets hit too but Ik that’s a slippery one with all the modifiers in our tree

[static glacier]

do we inherently not scale with secondaries well or is it more to do with tier

(since we needed buffs)

[balmy condor]

Neither

We still need buffs lmao

Just ptr thing dunno

[static glacier]

yeah so my q is why the fuck is our damage suddenly garbage

[balmy condor]

Everything around us changed and we stood still

[haughty flicker]

real

[static glacier]

aka we get less out of the 50 ilvls than others or the tier set

[balmy condor]

Neither

[static glacier]

that's my suspicion anyway

tier is deffo true

[plush isle]

Stilleto Buff will fix our underperformance

[static glacier]

our tier is weaker than others for sure

[balmy condor]

Historically we’ve been pretty good with stats, our tier is solidly meh now

[static glacier]

im seeing gains in the teens for other specs

[balmy condor]

Okay and where are you getting the other 8% or whatever that we’re missing after that

[static glacier]

let me consult my crystal ball

[balmy condor]

Yeh exactly

It’s just ptr numbers

Ain’t that deep

[plush isle]

Second Siphoning Stiletto

[balmy condor]

Warrior woke up on a Wednesday with like 14% overall buff

Shit happens

[bright cipher]

[static glacier]

tbh

upon second look

ethical sin apl = we don't oversim compared to reality

meanwhile other specs have some cooking going on

[balmy condor]

Idk if that accounts for like a 15% swing but sure yeah some specs got some demon shit

[static glacier]

I think I can confidently say of all dps specs ingame we perform by far the best in reality compared to sims

[balmy condor]

I really think it’s just like

A bunch of specs get tuned

The goal post moves

Now we’re not in the goal

[static glacier]

and we just got our first pass

happens ye

[balmy condor]

Doesn’t have to be complicated ye

[plush isle]

Do i smell 9 Aura Buffs at the horizon ?

[static glacier]

doubt it, we'd be too good in aoe

my bet is on them buffing st

[lavish geyser]

do we have sims for assa m+ with the new changes and for sub 😄? for m+

[plush isle]

Yeah but only in M+, Raid AOE consists 90% of the time in 5 Seconds Burst AOE Phases.

[bright cipher]

its something i have noticed too, as patches happen instead of value converging to average, they inflate above it

[plush isle]

5% Caustic Spatter Nerf, 10% Aura Buff

[static glacier]

nothing else can explain how overtuned reworks come out

I can't think of a rework since df that didn't end up needing nerfs

[royal lantern]

:3 whisp is not real, he cant hurt you

:3 whisp :

[bright cipher]

useless/meaningless post on the forum more recent patchnotes of my part https://i.imgur.com/9AgOOTR.png

[sharp viper]

ALERT #1080572530554835072 CONTAINMENT BREACH DETECTED

[lavish geyser]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[bright cipher]

its very very frustrating how PTR is being handled

[sharp viper]

https://tenor.com/view/bubu-bonk-bubu-dudu-gif-8932107540415697346

[static glacier]

lock situation has been quite dire this expac for sure

both design and tuning wise

[bright cipher]

with "hey we are just going to focus in A/B/C this time, if you aren't A/B/C tough luck"

don't get me wrong, i have no problem on reworking and dedicating more itme at A/B/C, but this shouldn't come at the cost of completely ignoring everyone else

[bright cipher]

i spoke about loke because its my experience as a lock player, but i see it happening to many more than lock

rogues, even DHs its just they complained enough to get a bit more attention

[static glacier]

the question is why do some specs get a ton more attention than others on a consistent basis Coughmagecough

[royal lantern]

player count and popularity

sad, but it is how it is

why put in much resources into classes that not many play?

[bright cipher]

a small detail, i don't find it wrong about mages getting attention, they deserve it, everyone deserves it, and i think a lot of the debate between us players is always "fighting between ourselves" oh..grass is greener to mage..the issue is that mages are getting attention"

when the issue should be blizzard not giving attention to the others, and not the attention to mage

[red schooner]

ye but then that just creates a cycle of 'x class doesn't get changed', 'less people want to play X class', 'blizzard don't look at X class because lack of players'

which is fucked

[royal lantern]

yep

[plush isle]

To many specs in this game

[haughty flicker]

yeah delete outlaw

[subtle tundra]

nah delete talent trees

they require too much work

[static glacier]

consider the ret rework, imo I would say it's by far the most successful one to date, it turned a middling representation spec into omega popular, widely considered fun - surely they consider what the rework can become, not neccesarily what it is

look at ret representation in mythic raid in pre-rework s1 df / shadowlands with after

it's insane

[peak hare]

if they made evoker visage form in combat + aug as a tank that shit gonna get a lot of players playing it xD

[bright cipher]

for exemple, by the time that Rogues/DH got their updates in DF, it was other classes complaining about Rogue/DH, whne warlocks got a bunch of changes on TWW it was complaining about warlocks

[plush isle]

sorry but ret was always popular, underrepresentet in wf races for sure, but every new player playes ret or hunter

[bright cipher]

but i do'nt think the complaining should focus on thespecs that are getting attention, but on the fact of the others not getting anything

[static glacier]

I can post my data, give me a moment

[peak hare]

Now augvoker got fked that class is dead

[static glacier]

Sephulcher: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/29?region=1 Vault pre-rework: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/31?region=1 Vault post-rework:https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/31?region=2

[subtle tundra]

yeah cause no other spec in the game was undertuned ever

they are the first

[static glacier]

you forgot about WoD demonology

[bright cipher]

people should forget that, its been 10 years!

[static glacier]

scarcity of dev time is the issue, we see the opportunity cost of a class getting dev attention as the rest of us getting nothing.

ofc we want all classes to play well and get looked at

but when they were reworking mage or shadow for the 100000th time while dk, ww and warriors were in the stone age

it felt off

[bright cipher]

thats the thing, better allocation of resources and planning

a rework don't need to be made in 1 patch, hell i would argue trying to fully rework a spec in 1 patch will just create gaps ( i am sure you guys have some complaints about post DF update state even if it improved rogue right?)

i think Demonology is a good exemple of this, post-WOD, in that its a spec who got a big revamp for legion, and this revampg have been iterated across the expansions until its the current state who is at my humble opinion a very good state

so hey, allocate some a bit less time to the reworked specs but still allocate to them, but allocate more time to everyone else too

maybe put more people in that team

[dawn condor]

But you cannot rework a spec during three expansions until its great. Thats way to long

[static glacier]

Im not even expecting full on reworks

they just need to do something to stop completely unintended gameplay loops that exist due to sus tuning

rof st over chaos bolt is a prime example

nerf incinerate, put that power in cb - solved

[bright cipher]

why not? the spec was enjoyable in legion, it was enjoyable in bfa and it was enjoyable in shadowlands.. it just that with each itteration it became a bit more whole

[static glacier]

or sub in 11.0 when it was refusing to press eviscerate outside of dance with the hero talent so as to preserve coup de gras for dance

I dont expect reworks, but stuff like that should be hotfixed quickly

it's gross

[bright cipher]

in the end, the truth is, if we just focus on complaining about why the other classes are getting reworks and not mine the conversation will eventually devolve in

"i should get rwroked because its the class i play and care, the others aren't" and everyone is just shooting each other

[static glacier]

for what it's worth I think assassination at least landed in a good spot and won't need reworking for a long time, just tuning

[bright cipher]

i am sure that if i go ask warlocks they will say they deserve more dev time, i am sure if i go ask mages i am sure they will say they should get dev time to revert the double-dip removal, i am sure if i go ask any class they will say they deserve more dev time

[dawn condor]

Demo was a mess in M+ until season 3 in SL. Way to long CDs, you had to play around it as a group to Even be viable. It wasnt enjoyable at all.

[static glacier]

it was functional, just tuned a bit off

[bright cipher]

well i have deeply enjoyed demo in m+ for the entirety of SL, and i think the most significant changes to it happened not in s3, but in the beta of Slands

[static glacier]

atleast from my own time playing it in s2

[bright cipher]

even in BFA i enjoyed m+ demo but it had deeper flaws

its just in S3 it was tuned more strongly (same for how it will be in 11.1, demo is stronger for S2 than for s1 even being relatively the same)

[fast mural]

12 CInderbrew

[bright cipher]

what i say is, instead of doing what they do now where its like they dedicate 70% of the ptr time to reworking specs, 25% to complaining specs and 5% to whatever remains.

they should do like 30~50% to reworking specs in significant ways/ 50-70% to all specs.

now i do agree some specs who currently and historically have been ignored (dps dks for exemple) should have higher priority

[oblique jackal]

Seems like a decent breakdown to me

[oblique jackal]

It is strange to see KB damage so low

[fast mural]

ye idk

was focusing more on bleed dmg instead of kb cause cinder has only aoe

[timid bramble]

I just cant escape you

you are everywhere

you are poppin'

[spice spire]

No they’re malacath

[timid bramble]

what was the overall dmg/dps

😄

[spice spire]

@normal mist

[bright cipher]

i am just contagious

[fast mural]

i think it was 4m+

[warm vortex]

I fucking despise being locked in combat

Fucking stupid game

[normal mist]

Just relax

You have no enemies.

https://tenor.com/view/thorfinn-vinland-saga-i-have-no-enemies-gif-11515755795241230940

(hopefuly we have people that know)

[warm vortex]

I was stuck at the start of ara kara while my group did a 3x pull with t hose tocxic ladies

Im so pissed off i missed that >:(

[spice spire]

Weeb

[normal mist]

You mean MASTERPIECE

Go watch it if you haven't

[keen breach]

hey guys

[normal mist]

Hey guy

[keen breach]

assa will be good with this changes=?

[normal mist]

[red schooner]

Ye probs

[keen breach]

nice

[warm lantern]

any sims for bis s2?

[spice surge]

eye of kezan and house of cards/signet of priory

Besides that just ilvl as usual

[warm lantern]

nice ty

[dreamy gale]

why would we use shiv before kingsbane isnt it better other way to get more damage?

[normal mist]

Depends

[earnest remnant]

how long does shiv last?

[normal mist]

1 shiv or 2?

[dreamy gale]

1 shiv

[red schooner]

1 shiv then shiv at kingsbane with 8 seconds left

[brisk vapor]

They focus on classes/specs that have higher representation. Thats the best bang for the buck for developer resources to keep subs playing. Except rogue is caught in that doom loop that it has low representation and doesn't get the attention due to that, dooming it to have low representation.

Never seen an MMO where rogue-archetype isnt the most played and in WoW its bottom, crazy.

[earnest remnant]

if you run 1 shiv you do it for the last 8 sec

[normal mist]

Then you use it on the last 8 seconds of kb

[red schooner]

2 shivs if you shiv before you have shiv rolling for full kingsbane duration

[dreamy gale]

got it ty

do not wanna go sub next patch haha staying assa for sure

[haughty flicker]

while i dont disagree entirely with your point, in ffxiv ninja (the rogue equivalent) is also one of the least played classes

so in the two most popular mmos in the world the rogue archetype is just not very popular

people just dont like being sneaky ig

[brisk vapor]

I think they've taken the mechanics that made rogue unique and since energy/cp is the easiest to balance they've seemingly distributed it to half the specs. I guess also resources in general mean nothing, so the niche was lost a long time ago. Kind of an identity crisis.

[bright cipher]

based on rate of changes, what you think would be the most played classes in the game?

[waxen field]

what talent were you running ? the usual m+ of the live ?

i was wondering if somehting like the bleed build ppl play in low key would work (this), but ig we'd loose a lot in single target again

[spice surge]

Drop the KB for shrouded, commit fully to DEMISEMAXXING

Big demise (@pastel onyx) approves

[bright cipher]

because like, at least on the limited data of https://www.dataforazeroth.com/stats/classes/ i wouldn't say that Dps Druid have gotten more changes than Shadow Priests who have had 3 or 4 reworks since shadowlands

we could talk about maybe log sample size https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/38 but this is much more about who is strongest/popular at the each individual time, variating a lot

[pastel onyx]

@spice spire do u approve?

[spice spire]

Big demise does indeed approve

Also alim

[static glacier]

lack of popularity in rogue is due to three main factors.

1. Levelling a rogue is very rough, you're constantly out of energy and the gameplay doesn't come together until very close to max level.

2. Thematically and visually rogue isn't as appealing as flashier, more typically "good" or "cool" fantasy archetypes for most people, why be a guy with knives when you could teleport and blast the enemy with your magic of choice. People don't want to be the bad guy, rogues are definitely in the "bad guy" camp alongside Dks and warlocks.

3. This class is on the more complex side of things for wow, people will try it and struggle to do good damage without understanding how to play it then compare it to other classes they can do well on pressing random buttons and decide to go play that instead. All three specs have points of failure / friction in gameplay that can gut your damage, not all classes are like this.

[halcyon saddle]

It really comes back down to reason #1.

[static glacier]

I think they're ordered in order of impact tbh

[golden loom]

theres also not really any flexibilty, all 3 specs are melee dps specs

[static glacier]

before people care about actual power / performance they can be turned off by reasons 1 and 2

[halcyon saddle]

With transmog you can get over topic 2 and rogues are usually decently tuned one of the 3 specs will be reasonably strong.

[static glacier]

funnily enough rogue is consistently very good if you're willing to play any of the specs

[halcyon saddle]

I started on a pally and being able to heal myself leveling tank or dps also helped for getting into groups.

Rogue raid utility needs to be looked at.

[golden loom]

Does it tho

think its fine that there are just pure dps specs

game is homogonized enough already

[brisk vapor]

Reason 1 is pretty overrated at this juncture in the game. Everybody either boosts or will absolutely swap to FOTM. Not minimizing thats its absolutely an issue. But I think 2 and 3 are much bigger reasons, especially 3. Anytime BM is an S-tier spec with brain dead game play and u gotta do 5x as much just to be competitive.. you know what people will play.

[static glacier]

I think raid-wise we're fine, I do think dungeon utility could use a pass though

there's been a power creep for dungeon utility in general

[haughty flicker]

reason 1 is definitely the most important

[kindred cobalt]

Im playing rogue since world of roguecraft, never had another char at lvl cap. Its the class that i can’t get tired of it.

[haughty flicker]

you're thinking of why it isnt popular at the top end of gameplay

[halcyon saddle]

Reason #1 is the initial foray into the game.

[wispy epoch]

Definitely not 3. Rogue is like middle

[haughty flicker]

reason 1 is why it isnt popular for 90% of the game

imagine telling a player "yeah it sucks for the first 10 hours but then it gets kinda good"

thats your sales pitch for rogue

[static glacier]

all classes are pretty easy, consider it from a perspective of a person picking up the class for the first time

[halcyon saddle]

If I get turned off from the leveling experience prior to boosts I'm not gonna bother with the class/spec

[wispy epoch]

Frost dk, windwalker, warrior and ret exist 😢

[halcyon saddle]

Also our population in this discord isn't the typical wow pop. Most are super casual dont research at all use wa or mythic raid get ce or the like.

WW is also equally not popular though.

[static glacier]

can't speak on post rework ww, ret is drool on keyboard tier

[wispy epoch]

It’s easy though

[bright cipher]

i would also like to mention, one of the most popular reworks to ever happen ended up being because the class was in the gutter during cata https://xelnath.com/2018/05/15/the-mop-warlock-what-you-knew-and-what-you-never-knew-you-missed/ and historically warlock, pre and post rework the population warlock never averaged highly.

[haughty flicker]

mop destro my beloved

[golden loom]

yeah isnt the most played thing in retail BY FAR just LFR

[halcyon saddle]

When you think about when they were introduced into the game I'm not suprised. Rogues are original you'd think there would be more of us.

[static glacier]

shame about xelnath, excellent dev but fumbled the bag socially inside blizz and got axed

[bright cipher]

so what they do is not purely based on who is the popular/mostly played specs/classes

[wispy epoch]

Most important thing you need to remember is that clones snapshot stats for windwalker

[brisk vapor]

How often do other classes have scenarios as consistent as rogues, where we have some janky mechanic like.. dont evis unless in dance. Or save a dry shiv charged for a mega KB and track yet another thing? Every once in awhile.. like warlock ROF.. but with rogue its literally every fucking patch

[bright cipher]

i love his rework, but here is the thing, if you do what he did at any job you will get fired.

[wispy epoch]

Also where’s my hecking 11.1 guide

[bright cipher]

and he is great game developer

[static glacier]

ye, as a MoP lock main start to finish genuinely every single spec played amazingly, we had choice regarding how, where and when we could commit resources for power

no other spec really affords the same level of flexibility as mop lock did

[halcyon saddle]

Yes I will say the number of plates that need to be balanced is kinda insane comparatively to ret or frost dk hell any of the melee.

[static glacier]

everything is just immediate overcap / too low cd to be holdable

[bright cipher]

well, warlocks were also rly overtuned during mop so its complicated to separate the good and the bad without the light of BIG NUMBERS

[haughty flicker]

big numbers good

[static glacier]

simply letting us bank resources to react to temporary buffs made a boring rotation engaging

[bright cipher]

numbers go up numbers go up

[static glacier]

timing dot refreshes at the end of wushoolay's or black blood was fun

[wispy epoch]

I wanna play Mop Classic but wasn’t subtlety the goat?

Especially on Garrosh Star duty

[golden loom]

big numbers good and thats why classic fury warrior is when design peaked and nothing has gotten close since

[static glacier]

lock was OP, so was mage, warrior and boomie iirc

[brisk vapor]

I think the game is close or at a breaking point to do pinnacle difficulty content whilst juggling class complexity. I agree about Ret tier snore fest.. but if you have content complexity ratched as high as its starting to get. Maximizing efficient rotations gets exponentially more difficult. I think devs need to figure out a balance.

[static glacier]

they just transferred class complexity into encounters

[golden loom]

think its a super smart decision overall

[wispy epoch]

Every raid mechanic I get lowers my 100% parse by 5-10%

[static glacier]

it's fine for there to be a range of difficulty for classes to suit all tastes, it's just that harder classes will generally be less popular since it's more effort for a similar reward

[golden loom]

makes stuff at lower levels more approchable and keeps the high level stuff there

[halcyon saddle]

The issue is also skill level amongst players. If the juice isn't worth the squeeze human nature is the path of least resistance.

[golden loom]

I mean if theres a 0.0001% upside to squeeze out

people will

[halcyon saddle]

I agree for some not most. Lol why do you think ret is so popular.

[golden loom]

thats why there is beauty in simplicity

[halcyon saddle]

Shiny wings aside. You have 4 buttons and nothing to track just slam.

[static glacier]

don't forget it's slated to be the tankiest spec ingame next patch

if the dk defensive nerfs hit hard

immortal spec

[halcyon saddle]

While we have to track envenon, rupture, garote, try and be behind targets as our abilities ain't omni directional be in melee range. Hahaha and all the while be tankier and have a real immunity

[static glacier]

stuff like worrying about your dm target being focused by other dps

just doesn't exist

[normal mist]

Hello guys

[halcyon saddle]

While none of this is difficult to track it just is laughable comparing classes. For that level of effort I would expect to have a theoretical damage potential that is higher.

[spice surge]

Oups, it is what it is

[normal mist]

Luna is enjoying your conversation

[static glacier]

technically speaking we do more damage than ret

[royal lantern]

reminder that 95% of the "omg MoP warlock was so good!!!" stuff comes from the simple fact that MoP warlock was just 1 of the most gamebreaking things we ever saw

like

yeha sure, if you like GTA with godmode active, MoP warlock was cool i gues

[half dawn]

wasnt MOP lock so broken because of snapshotting and not just the class being giga

[royal lantern]

multiple things

casting while moving

demo lock could KINDA offtank

it had so much shit going on

[static glacier]

snapshot abuse, cast on the move and when that was removed 2x charge dark soul + giga broken int trinkets

generally good execute / aoe

good scaing with stats

a ton of reasons really

[royal lantern]

MoP in general is KIIINDA overhyped in "omg class desing was so good"

cs like, imo it was 1 of the worst times for class desing, cus every class did everthing

there where not really differences

[static glacier]

class was strong to exceptional at almost everything excluding raw mobility

[static glacier]

lowkey we're going back to that

in retail

[brisk vapor]

Its true but everybody was generally happy then too because of it

[static glacier]

any class that can't aoe and st at the same time is made to

[royal lantern]

ye, we do regulary

[royal lantern]

not really

[halcyon saddle]

True fair point.

[royal lantern]

like

[static glacier]

they already gave sub and sin blade flurry, afflock and ret used to have to give up a ton of dps in st to aoe and vice versa, they're improving that

[golden loom]

you mean how to AoE in raid we swap 1 talent and then that talent turns into our most damaging spell

nahh surely that is good design

[royal lantern]

mate, if you actally look at the "omg mop gameplay was so good" stff, they always say the same 3 classes

its always Warlock/Warrior and maybe disc priest (who was broken) and monk (who was new and had many weird things)

[static glacier]

mage was fairly fun

old alter time was cool

[half dawn]

ngl

[static glacier]

combust in highroll situations making you burst 2-3x the next person was crazy too

[half dawn]

i miss old IC before the rework

[halcyon saddle]

Lol mop the epitome of rose tinted glasses.

[royal lantern]

Old IC was the ultimate bandaid

[static glacier]

might be, im a bit scared actually - it's when I started

[half dawn]

i legit think MOP is overrated except for some of the raids

[royal lantern]

it had good stuff and bad stuff like all expansions

but its 1 of those expansions where people forgot the bad stuff anjd overhype the good stuff (like they do with Legion aswell)

[halcyon saddle]

Mop was super overrated. I've played since classic and I think wotlk was damn near peak and they touched upon that again in legion.

[royal lantern]

and Classes where not reeeaaaaally the strong part of MoP overall

[half dawn]

Legion's main problem was the dumb AF legendary system on launch

not anything else really

10/10 expac

i guess AP grind was also tough but that's it

[bright cipher]

It was a lot of things.

Warlocks were the most mobile caster, while also being the tankiest caster, with a group of powerfull utilities (we had arcane intellect, we had raid stamian buff, a more powerfull gateway, all the utility we still have, aoe curses)

Warlocks at the time were the only dot specs with pandemic (yes, no other caster had pandemic on dots we invented that) meaning refreshing dots for us was less punishing

Warlocks could rly abuse the snapshott mechanic in all 3 specs and truth be told is that snapshott was never balanced around how it was played, and when they nerfed for one (Demo with UVLS) it still had the problem on affliction with snapshotting lust + trinket + pot for the entire fight due to SB: SoulSwap

Many spells also release in MOP at absurd tunning levels like Chaos Wave (a demo spell) could oneshot people in aoe on pvp.

MOP classic will be a lot more balanced as its based on 5.4.1

[static glacier]

for me mop gameplay is a clear step up from wotlk

[halcyon saddle]

Yeah they shit the bed with the legendary system at launch and the grind

[golden loom]

Legion classic sounds like it will go hard since the classic versions are released on final patch of the expac

so probably wouldnt have the legendary stuff fail again

[half dawn]

Legion classic would go so hard rn

[golden loom]

just gotta get through WoD classic

[half dawn]

nah aint no way they do that

[static glacier]

legion legendary situation on launch imo is actual MMO shit

wod raids were sick

[royal lantern]

thats a funny take cus most people kinda agree at this point that WotLK was the Peak of Mid

like, WotLK is literally just the alpha version of Modern wow

with not really much things going on

max level->raid logging with some dailys added later

[halcyon saddle]

The raid experience in wotlk was amazing for me.

[haughty flicker]

wait do people think mop was good now

i remember everyone shitting on it during every expac after it

[static glacier]

yeah it's regarded as a good expansion

[haughty flicker]

i liked it but its when i first started playing so nostalgia

[halcyon saddle]

I think it's moreso the story for me. The systems were typical systems at that point.

[static glacier]

not legion / wotlk tier but deffo above average

[half dawn]

HFC was fun ngl

[haughty flicker]

i think it was a good expansion

[royal lantern]

??

MoP is 1 of the most loved expansions in the game lol

[static glacier]

kung fu panda meme

[haughty flicker]

maybe its just the people i interacted with

[halcyon saddle]

The only bad expac for me is the hellscream shit

[haughty flicker]

because i definitely remember it being hated

[static glacier]

actually so funny that pandaren are older than kung fu panda yet blizzard got accused of copying

[half dawn]

furry / panda / china expac / kids expac / farming expac (tellers) etc etc

that shit was going on for a bit tbh but WOD was so shit everyone loved MOP in retrospect

[static glacier]

it was nice to not know immediately who the enemy was

[royal lantern]

bro, people that complained about furrys back then where stupid

people that do it nowdays are just fcking idiots

[haughty flicker]

i liked both sides committing warcrimes within the first 20 minutes

[halcyon saddle]

Haha hence why you're a rogue

[half dawn]

lmao

[halcyon saddle]

Lol fucking mana bomb off rip

[bright cipher]

i enjoyed most expansions i played in a way or another, even shadowlands.

[royal lantern]

ye

my only problem with SL was that i had 2 guilds dying in 1 tier lol

[halcyon saddle]

Yeah we still playing so lol couldn't have been that bad...

[golden loom]

I've only touched 2 versions of the game and I love both (classic and tww) so idk, maybe wow is just good

[bright cipher]

MOP is my favorite one..and i rly do think its that good because i started HATING MOP announcement (i was part of the crowd who said "joke race? china appeal? fucking pandas!") and it became my favorite class

[haughty flicker]

i had fun in shadowlands just because it was the first expansion i actually started trying to raid whatsoever

pugging aotc was pretty fun

[half dawn]

SL and torghast prison on launch was unplayable

[haughty flicker]

i stayed awake until like 3 am to kill sludgefist with an oce group

good times

[half dawn]

S3 it was actually decent

[golden loom]

also, if a game is bad or unfun, literally just dont play it

[bright cipher]

WOD is like..rly solid start, maybe my favorite launch after Legion, first raid is meh, second raid is solid, third raid overstayed its welcome due to long patch but was nice.

[golden loom]

[half dawn]

Bro WoD launch was so bad people were stuck on FP for like 12 hours

[bright cipher]

Legion is a brilliant but flawed product, i love everything about legion outside of its grind from early AP and legendary rng.

[half dawn]

and the garrison phasing was cooked

If legion launched with good legendary system and slightly nerfed AP grind it would have been 12/10. Still 10/10

[grim jay]

idk, torghast was easy af the whole time

just took a couple of minutes

solo atleast

[halcyon saddle]

Yeah legion was so well done. Raid were awesome artifacts, class specific t6 revamps.

[half dawn]

it was boring af + mandatory

[grim jay]

ye but still better than stupid dailies

[half dawn]

AND M+

[grim jay]

or rep grind

[haughty flicker]

torghast was such wasted potential

[spice spire]

Call me rep the way ur grinding

[half dawn]

eh idk

[bright cipher]

BFA is the father of everything i rly like about current demonology and i respect that, but i also seriously question the mess that was Azerite, by far, the messiest thing ever, they basically hid it away for most of the beta, showed it later, barely allowed people to test released with a absurd acquisition rate...1 helped a lot but i don't hate bfa

[half dawn]

Legion had amazing dailies

they were so fast

so ez

kinda fun even

[grim jay]

I'd grind you all day bud

[half dawn]

OFC it had to get nerfed

[haughty flicker]

imagine if instead of a mandatory grind with power locked behind it, it was a fun rotating game mode like plunderstorm

[spice spire]

Hey king

[halcyon saddle]

I kinda missed the mop challenge dungeons but m+ is fine.

[bright cipher]

Shadowlands is..probably the worst expansion i palyed, but i still loved Castle Nathria and Sire Denathrius creation is rly what they should have done to be a true villain and not the mess of whatever they did as the jailer.

[halcyon saddle]

Lol I usually end up doing 60 to 80 keys the first week of the patch so it is what it is.

[grim jay]

I had more fun in torghast than in plunderstorm

[haughty flicker]

daddy d was sick

[bright cipher]

Dragonflight is probably my "silver-era" wow

[half dawn]

DF was solid

EXCEPT S2 ruined by cancer comp but it is what it is

[royal lantern]

thats a gigantic negative

fucking m+

plague on the game

[half dawn]

M+ is the biggest reason i kept playing wow

[halcyon saddle]

Yeah the game would be late stage mythic raiding without m+

People would just raid log. M+ is a necessary evil

[bright cipher]

i am sorry, but M+ is a gigantic W on this game

[haughty flicker]

M+ was definitely good for the game

M+ players are an unfortunate side effect

[royal lantern]

ye

m+ good

the people it attracted

oof

[half dawn]

I'm OOTL on Mythic raiding but you don't even need to hard grind M+ for gear right?

[halcyon saddle]

M+ is fine the issue is the great vault.

[half dawn]

You just do weeklies

[bright cipher]

i think i play M+ in the "healthiest" way possible

i do my +10's~+12's for fun

and thats it

[half dawn]

Wdym

[halcyon saddle]

Same

Fill my vault and play alts

[half dawn]

@royal lantern that's legit mythic raid players

same shit

[golden loom]

I've done 1 to 4 +10-+11s weekly entire expansion so far

[half dawn]

unless you're tlking about shitters in mid-tiers for m+

talking*

[royal lantern]

well duh

[golden loom]

no myth skardyns yet but it keeps it enjoyable

[royal lantern]

ofc THOSE guys

who else

the loud crowd that think they are hot shit

[half dawn]

yeah but kinda who cares? you just ignore them

[royal lantern]

cus they did a +15 once (ignore the 57 other keys they bricked by themself)

[half dawn]

and you probably don't even play with them anyway if you're good

[spice spire]

@ me

(I’m dogshit)

[bright cipher]

Like, before M+, dungeon was a pre-raid gearing step, after that you would never again step on it and if you would step on it, it was the same as you going now in mythic raid gear and step at heroic dungeon, your group is so absurdly overgeared that you can't even enjoy playing the class apply dot? stuff is already dead, press cd? dead in 3s.

now, yeah i do need to do keys for gear but i even see this as a positive compared to be low gear because i had shti rolls from raid and i can play dungeons for fun a an difficult appropriate to the challenge i want

not brain-dead but also not torture

in the sense that +10~+12 i outgear but not enough for things to die in 3s making any form of rotation irrelevant

i do agree that many affixes are just garbage tough

explosives, threat reduction, the fucking BFA s1 seassonal affix all affixes who fail at identifying the nº1 thing about wow..that this is a game and should be fun

Its similar to my problem of the Maw from 9.0, you forget this is primarily a game, and focus on other elements and go "The Maw is suposed to be hell, its not a place of fun ot enjoyment as such we are going to make mechanics in the zone who make every minute you stay on it unenjoyable" ...wow blizzard genius work, maybe next step you make ghost enemies immune to physical damage and fire elementals immune to fire.

i am sure players will love that

[spice spire]

[bright cipher]

sorry

[golden loom]

Maw is supposed to be hell

Might aswell kill me irl if we wipe then

[slate crown]

rude, toxic even

[spice spire]

Nah Blud was just tapping that’s okay

The toxic emote is

[slate crown]

oh that's true that's true

[royal lantern]

thats classic

[spice spire]

Plus aren’t you a resto shaman main now

[bright cipher]

classic does have elements of it yeah.

but does it goes to fullright immunity? i tought its just resistance

[golden loom]

Fire mage in molten core

Its full immunity

But tbh its kinda cool and true to the era, would be awful in the modern game tho ofc

[bright cipher]

sorry assasination rogues, but golems do'nt bleed

[violet hemlock]

U also couldnt bleed skeletons of poison elementals.

[royal lantern]

you still cant bleed totems btw

:3

:33333

very fun mechanic

[slate crown]

dog I don't even know what gender I am u think I know what my main is?

[old thistle]

what if golems bleed

but they bleed magic

[spice spire]

LMFAO

[golden loom]

Based multiclass talent

[frozen glacier]

[royal lantern]

[haughty flicker]

[marble hemlock]

[peak hare]

[vagrant brook]

[golden loom]

[brisk vapor]

https://xelnath.com/2018/05/15/the-mop-warlock-what-you-knew-and-what-you-never-knew-you-missed/

Somebody linked this earlier. One of their main drivers was lock fantasy was way off, which in part drove the massive rework. Kinda thinkin that is the same with rogue?

sin and sub at the very least are comepletely backwards

[spice surge]

Completely backwards how

[brisk vapor]

if you're going to assassinate somebody, thats the burst. If you're "subtely" doing something thats your dot focused kill

[spice surge]

Well if you assassinate them with poison its not particularly bursty

[static glacier]

Assassination isn't neccesarily quick

[dapper cradle]

Plenty of historical assassinations were done through poisoning tho

[static glacier]

though regardless, sin is quite bursty

[brisk vapor]

ask Lincoln

[dapper cradle]

The guy who killed lincoln was specced outlaw tho

He hit a bte crit

[unique bay]

assassination has been traditionally associated with poison for thousands of years

subtlety and subterfuge come from the latin subter and subtilis, 'beneath', and they use underhanded shadow magic to quickly kill their victims before they can react

makes enough sense to me

[severe meadow]

Anyone’s group here mess with the crackling / queens citrine thing?

[haughty flicker]

i want subtlety to lean more into the shadow clone shit that sec tec does

not because it makes sense but bc its cool

[ruby escarp]

naruto spec

[strange sleet]

@balmy condor I've been testing the 4p during the day and this is what I got if you are interested. It's all done with a normal rotation, like actually trying to DPS.

[bright cipher]

Rework all rogue specs, now its Pirate, Ninja and cowboy!

[slender stream]

Hello! Question as a new rogue. Our opener, it shows 2/2 garrotes & ruptures, are those going on different targets or the same?

[celest helm]

you can multi dot the same target and it will spread to other targets that are missing dots already thanks to IC, but in larger AOE pulls tab targetting can be better minmax

[severe meadow]

You’d be reapplying if you don’t swap targets but it will spread to others

[slender stream]

Cheers - ty

Keep garrote up after opener? Or just focus on rupture

[celest helm]

always keep garrote/rupture both up on main targets

[severe meadow]

Garrote outside of improved is kinda ass but keep it on prio target

[celest helm]

garrote and rupture are considered maintanence, keep them up at all times on as many targets as you can. Damage sure, but they also give energy back which is very big for AOE situations and/or cleave

[slender stream]

Ok

[runic hinge]

!carnage

[prisma monolith]

Indiscriminate Carnage Targetting and Swapping
TLDRMouseovers/Target swapping is optimal on 6 target, or 8+ targets, but not necessarily required

• The 2 Bleeds spread by carnage are smart and will prioritize mobs without the bleed. If everything already has bleeds it'll apply randomly
• You as the character are still casting the bleed against your target like normal, this is why people will sometimes use mouseover macros or swap targets

Swapping targets is situationally better, but can be ignored if you're having difficulties with it. Take 5 mob aoe as an example, your first garrote cast will apply to 3 targets (your target + 2 more). Regardless of if you swap or not, your second cast of garrote will hit your target, and then apply 2 more garrotes, prioritizing the mobs that do not have garrote. In very large aoe pulls (12 or more), a standard opener (garrote-garrote-rupture-rupture-garrote-garrote) will only apply 9 garrotes (3+2+2+2) and 5 ruptures (3+2) if you do not swap, losing you 3 garrotes and a rupture.

It is technically worse, but the situations in which you lose bleeds aren't very common; the lost ruptures/garrotes don't contribute much to your already flooded energy, you don't get additional scent of blood stacks, etc. The loss is purely the extra damage from those bleeds.

[humble verge]

[hexed frost]

Unironically subterfuge is an absolutely useless talent for sub

[unique bay]

well ye the talent is dogshit but subterfuge the concept is important to sub

[iron carbon]

@subtle tundra You there ?

I need help to start try harding M+

[subtle tundra]

bleed spatter fuck

[haughty flicker]

[runic hinge]

Real

[subtle tundra]

just ask though,

[iron carbon]

Which point we should focus to improve in pug environment?

I feel stuck around 14-15 in this end of season

I know the answer will be : Get a team

[normal mist]

Are you having that one internal monologue where you know what the answer to your problems is yet you reject it?

[subtle tundra]

if you're a blaster people will add you to battlenet

and ask you to play

[iron carbon]

I need to blast more then

Cuz nobody never add me

Or ask me to play 😦

[iron carbon]

Tbh, It's a mix of : I'm bad / Not meta enough / Picky Rio people

[normal mist]

If you were bad you wouldn't be doinmg 14/15s

if you're bad i'm dog shit

[royal lantern]

stop calling me out

[iron carbon]

I'm not good then*

That's more how I feel currently

[normal mist]

brother

"im not good"

you're doing probably top 1% keys

[royal lantern]

welcome to wow players

[normal mist]

you're doing what probably 99% of the wow active population can't dream of doing

[royal lantern]

humble braging is crazy here

[iron carbon]

Said like it

[haughty flicker]

https://tenor.com/view/michael-jackson-bad-really-really-bad-80s-music-mj-gif-18917941

on a more serious note i dont think its actually humble bragging, its just different feelings of what "good" is

like saying better than 99% of players is all well and good but 99% of wow players are fucking terrible

i worry that i drive on the same roads as wow players

[iron carbon]

Yes, being better than 99% of player, knowing content that 90% does is a piece of cake, does not mean I'm good

90% is less than all 12 timed

Imho, it's ridiculous

[royal lantern]

i mean, that literally is humble bragging

saying "oh i say that this content is EASY so im not good!" is literally peak humble bragging

like, thats like leage players telling you how they are bad at the game because they are only D1

[haughty flicker]

i mean the intention matters pretty heavily there

when someone comes in and says, "hey how can i get better" and says they're bad, they probably arent humble bragging

[iron carbon]

Bro, I don't fcking care your opinion about my game level. I just wanna know how to get better.
I feel stuck cuz something feels wrong in my PuG gameplay. I wanted to know if there's some "generic" points to focus on to maybe improve

[royal lantern]

take a video of a run and analyze it after the run

idk man

what do you want from us

if you want to go really high, you dont fucking Pug

"expect them to play perfect so you can do X thing, but then realise that its a pug so you cant do that"

or what

[marble hemlock]

There isn't.

[royal lantern]

+15 is the point where CD managment becomes bigger

in a set group you can coordinate it

if its pugs, just slam stff cus there is no coordination

[lavish geyser]

Is IW required when having a prot pala? dont they have a bajillion interrupts?

[iron carbon]

But you don't have to take your disobliging air and tell I'm acting as an AW

[dapper cradle]

really depends on your group dynamics

[marble hemlock]

It's never required but it's also almost never hurting

[dapper cradle]

If you're pugging, IW can certainly be an asset, but if you're full premade comms, you may not need it with a ppal

[marble hemlock]

So unless you really need that little extra damage, why not have IW instead

People who don't need iw typically don't have to ask

[lavish geyser]

well idk i also feel like it depends on the dungeon. its SV, cant really make up my mind the dmg is nice, and we got an aug as well. have no clue what they do. its a 14 so shouldnt be a struggle. but I would like not to take it ideally

[royal lantern]

the 1 dungeon where you can kinda drop IW no matter what is mists

but like, eh

what seli said

[lavish geyser]

i know that comms is usally the key. but pal has soo many interrupts

so Like I dont know if its a relevant factor, even though its a pug

[royal lantern]

thinkl about it in another way

dmg is never really a big problem

and you dont do noticable more dmg cus you dont take IW

but IW reduces the chances you wipe on a trashpack

[lavish geyser]

I mean ig so. dont really teel like wiping on trash happens anymore. its mostly just bosses

that is at least what I have experienced

[haughty flicker]

the real way to think about it

[lavish geyser]

but true, was just thinking abt the st

[haughty flicker]

do you trust the fate of your key to a paladin player

[lavish geyser]

LOL

truuueee

[lethal onyx]

@balmy condor lock in bud it's time for some tierlistings

[royal lantern]

many prot paladins are ret mains that play prot

and i never trust a ret player

[raw valley]

finally beat stupid zekvir 😭 🙏

[maiden sierra]

if whispyr does not tell max he loves him before max then hes washed

[lethal onyx]

yep

[junior olive]

in M+ on trash pulls..do you tempest 1st then pop ur CDs or it comes after shiv/deaths mark / king

[royal lantern]

apply bleeds->CT->spatter->cooldowns

[junior olive]

ok ty..is it better to have combo points ready before you pop kingsbane? or does that take too long to do?

after splatter get some points then CDS

[silver escarp]

Do we know what trinket would be prefered in S2?

Oh yea missed the trinket part sry

[maiden sierra]

you have been forgiven

[silver escarp]

Oh so the eye keep the stats + deal the dmg for the whole duration of a raid fight?

I see why it's bis

[maiden sierra]

cant wait to fight with every other class for the trinket

[humble verge]

max doing tier list on stream omegelol

surely it will be correct

[maiden sierra]

its THE pug meta list

[silver escarp]

True..

Fck. Why is house of cards on a 1min30 cd ffs

[humble verge]

me when i pug and deplete

[dapper cradle]

critcake gave arms 5 big booms damn

[royal lantern]

we still se it

so who cares

macro with DM and forget

[humble verge]

well he is kinda biased to arms

imo

[dapper cradle]

wish I could kiss critcake

cutest warrior streamer for sure

[silver escarp]

Yea sure, but 2min are better

[maiden sierra]

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxe2IQ2KrYTgAm641awapFQAmeEvqjYphS?si=dwZWlwT-1yUMN_6I

[humble verge]

i wonder who he'll call for rogue

[indigo lagoon]

my poor cat still not meta(

[royal lantern]

@gusty mirage

[neat jacinth]

Just a fast question: When playing with The First Dance, can you activate it in a Bossfight in M+ with Vanish and waiting 6 sec and if so: is it worth it?

[humble verge]

monke

[royal lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-smash-wood-playing-gif-17749007

[humble verge]

i think youre in the wrong chat, buddy

[rotund oak]

probably not,sitting for tfd sounds big L.Should ask on sub channel

[gusty mirage]

?

[sturdy mesa]

Ehe question, what is the spreadsheet to see all the class sims, or is that not up yet

[royal lantern]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[royal lantern]

but reminder that its kinda pointless

comparing sims bettwen classes/spec has no real value

[hearty seal]

new here
so, going by the last pinned post
assa keeps getting changes that are mostly pointless? what's been going on with the class? joined in TWW (after like 12 years of not playing, so I don't know pretty much anything past Cata), but apparently it's been in a rather strange state since before TWW too

[buoyant herald]

small changes, not addressing the weaknesses basically

compared to other classes like monk (excl BM), rogue changes haven't been particularly insightful i guess?

but it did very well in s1 raid and assass was barely off-meta for keys so

[hearty seal]

yeah seems like that
I don't exactly like the vanish meta for Sin and Combat Outlaw, but apparently back in DF rogues used to have SD on every spec so Vanish is subbing in for that atm because stealth talents are really good

[royal lantern]

yeha kinda what spark said

problem is like

rogue is a unpopular class (least played class in the game), so its not really a big focus for bigger changes

kinda shity, but what can we do except giving feedback and hope they listen

[hearty seal]

whoa that's new
back in the day (15 years ago lmao) rogue was pretty big

[royal lantern]

but thh, complaining about vanish is ALWAYS weird

like

[golden loom]

on the upside tho, its fun and plays well and did very well in season 1

[hearty seal]

at least that's how I remember it...

[royal lantern]

vanish is a cd since always

[royal lantern]

it wasnt

rogue was the least played class back in vanilla aswell

rogue was never popular

[flint siren]

You may just remember the gankers being Rogues

[golden loom]

well in classic its probably the 2nd most popular cause its the 2nd highest dps class

[royal lantern]

the only time rogue was not the last place, was with monk release (and monk is ahead) and with evoker (which is a new class that ofc starts low, and they allready pull close)

[main solar]

Rogues were just popular in the high level pvp scene, but that's such a small portion of the overall playerbase

[royal lantern]

classic is always weird cus people know the meta and play meta stuff then

like, you had barely any DPS warriors back in vanilla, in classic its 214ß146ß97610ß861ß6 dps warriors

[golden loom]

yeah it deffo skewed my perspective, I was very confused with how few people play rogue in retail

[hearty seal]

didn't do much outside of allowing an extra garrote or ambush back in Wrath, as far as I recall, which wasn't really massive
even less point to it in vanilla/tbc, AFAICR

[hearty seal]

yeah I remember the private server scene when circa 2012 or so people started discovering just how busted fury was

[golden loom]

well vanish is a offensive cd in classic aswell cause you wipe the only mechanic you have to worry about (threat)

[subtle tundra]

penis!

[royal lantern]

im 100% sure i used vanish as offensive skill back in wotlk allready

[haughty flicker]

[royal lantern]

[royal lantern]

yeha man, lets go

[subtle tundra]

THATS WHAT I MEAN

[golden loom]

well in raid single target you do pretty much that, you vanish and press garrote, all that matters is vanishing at a certain point of ur kingsbane

[buoyant herald]

tempting to say this but not sure it's accurate, monk is a great example - i think it's only barely more popular than rogue and MW has been getting sweeping spec changing adjustments since 11.0 beta

[royal lantern]

monk has a funny different thing going on

monk is unpopular and people KNOW it, "monk is always ignored" is a meme that everyone knows it, so it gets attention by the community BECAUSE it gets no attention from blizz

rogue is ignored by the community

[flint siren]

They just can't work on all specs as much as they would like, and Rogue got some 10.2 attention and a lil bit here and there, but others are the focus for updating rn. Which always sucks to see and have to wait and feel more and more scuffed and dated in comparison but ye, it just be like that, imo.

[main solar]

It's not always the very bottom class in popularity, like when new classes are released, but it's pretty consistently been in the bottom 3 for several expansions (atleast since legion?)

[royal lantern]

1 of the reasons they made the Cata legendary daggers, was to make people actually play rogue btw

[main solar]

I think one of the biggest problems for Rogues right now is the class tree itself. It's just dated. Which yeah, is hard to justify a huge rework when they just got one recently and there are other classes to work on.

[golden loom]

Really?

[runic hinge]

[golden loom]

like rogue feels very fine idk

what kind of drastic changes do people even want, that wouldnt make the class worse

reshuffle the damage maybe, not the talents

[royal lantern]

well, all i want is for the dmg to be re-distributed

[main solar]

I mean sure, it's fine. But the class tree is still really uninspiring.

[royal lantern]

more in bleeds, less in envenom

[golden loom]

yeah that I can see

but wanting change for changes sake just sounds weird idk

[grim jay]

and we want exsanguinate back

[royal lantern]

shut up bozo

[grim jay]

I double down

the legion version

or even prepatch

[gusty stag]

the caustic aoe is just really dull.. like majority of out dmg comes from that but like it would be more rewarding if everything did more even dmg spread across to punish more if you actaully dont know how to play.. You can get really far by just doing 2x garrote, 2x rupture and then smashing into caustic

[grim jay]

that would work out great

[gusty stag]

Would be nice with more bleed orientated setups so we also feel powerful in low keys and single target.

[grim jay]

punishing bad gameplay more on a class people think is insanely hard

[golden loom]

I mean we are very powerful in low keys

literally just bleed build it down

[gusty stag]

Looks like what they're trying to push as well with the bleed setup. Like mobs will get executed from a bit higher % now.

[subtle tundra]

to be fair, we already are way more punishing than many other specs

[spice surge]

Is 5% more bleed damage on demise and AP affecting 8 targets not enough to satiate your needs???

Demisemaxxers know this is it

[grim jay]

wish you would punish me

[subtle tundra]

huh? our execute is an afterthought

[royal lantern]

caustic existing is good

the problem is just that they pushed wqaaaay to mch into it

[gusty stag]

It's not about needs. It's about playstyle, like these buffs sure is nice, but they don't change a talent.

[royal lantern]

if caustic was a medium part of our dmg and decent cleave, yeha sre

[hearty seal]

my feelings after a few months are like this

1. kinda hate how much Vanish does with all the stealth talents, would like things to be less dependent on combat stealth/restealth (esp M+ AoE)
2. Shiv does too much, also not sure why enrage dispel is on what is otherwise a straight damage boosting CD
3. Thistle Tea 11.0.5 changes kinda made it worse rather than better, also Energy itself feels weird in a game where most classes just can't run out of their resources (played quite a bit of War and Mage also)
4. ST is kinda boring? does give me time to watch out for mechs I guess

[subtle tundra]

dont think they are intended to

[gusty stag]

Yeah agree with most of that Igni.. Energy Flow is not a problem in m+ tho just single target.. 100% inline with vanish and shiv is awkward being both offensive and defensive.

[hearty seal]

M+ on packs, yeah, infinite energy

ST in both M+ and raid - ugh

[slate crown]

Ngl #3 is skill issue. Like that’s the point of the spec.

[golden loom]

The tea change is fake and does not matter

[haughty flicker]

uh oh

energy mentioned

[gusty stag]

😄

[golden loom]

[royal lantern]

i mean

assa has....2? stealth talents lol

and stealth doesnt really matter much

[gusty stag]

I mean it does in m+

[royal lantern]

"stealth is GIGA IMPORTANT" is 1 of the biggest missunderstandings in the game

[subtle tundra]

i like how these complaints are from newer assa players

[royal lantern]

not really

[waxen field]

in raid it's fine tbf

like downtime are 1-2gcds sometime but it's ok imo

st in m+ st is indoubtly a pain though

[gusty stag]

I mean if you play it optimally you gonna have 8 seconds with no energy around 1:35 pooling for your next cd rotation

[royal lantern]

what

[gusty stag]

Those 8 seconds is what feels awkward in single target

[hearty seal]

ind carnage, master assassin, shrouded suff
so three

[golden loom]

bleedmaxxing got me so hyped that I decided to level as the real bleed spec

[spice surge]

Shrouded is only +2 combo points. The +20% damage is active at all times

[waxen field]

apparently if mimiron is up to date a bleedmaxxing bleed is not even overperferming the current build.. or i'm bad at simming

[royal lantern]

thats 2

[hearty seal]

oh I mistook it with Imp Garrote, that's the real thing

[gusty stag]

the stealth is not about the dps only.. the iron wire talent is the real gold

Being able to vanish and then silence an entire pack for straight up 15 seconds i mean.. its so strong

[misty holly]

Seems like that's what the patch notes tried to too a little bit without resorting to any nerfs of caustic.

[golden loom]

pooling is not real either

[gusty stag]

And why is pooling not real lol.

[royal lantern]

if you do a pull where iron wire is needed and you dont have cds (which means vanish), what are yo doing

[royal lantern]

!pooling

[prisma monolith]

• Energy just is low on the spec there's nothing to do about it
• Super Min-Max stuff includes avoiding the auto proc of tea (less than +0.2%, tea/shiv macro is optimal)
• Refreshing Envenom in pandemic instead of spamming it (mostly relevant for m+ without TTK, can be up to 0.5%)
• Otherwise nothing matters. Pooling before kingsbanes isn't important because of tea lining up and deathmark giving a huge surge of energy

[royal lantern]

becase it isnt

you do 0 dmg otside of cds

in cds you have infinite energy

what is there to pool

[golden loom]

pooling is fake, tea is fake, stealth is fake

only thing that is real on the spec: ENVENOM

[gusty stag]

I 100% disagree after playing rogue for 20 years lol

[balmy condor]

doesn't matter if you disagree

[main solar]

Rogues aren't real man

[gusty stag]

So opening into your cd rotation with 0 energy or 300 energy doesnt matter?

[balmy condor]

the numbers aren't there

[runic hinge]

Why would you pool for death mark when it floods your energy

[royal lantern]

i play rogue for 18years and can tell you that i disagree with your statment

cus its just not real

[gusty stag]

You guys are too theoretical about some things

[golden loom]

you press deathmark your energy is overflowing

[royal lantern]

no we are not

when does assa do dmg?

during cds

[hearty seal]

I mean I could do high blue/low purple logs without pooling and playing suboptimally, but sometimes you just sit there waiting for a few seconds for Energy to come back anyway

[royal lantern]

what does cds mean? you have tea/deathmark, aka endless energy

so what is there to pool, you literally cant run out of energy during the time where you actally do something

[balmy condor]

assa sims are some of the most realistic

[misty holly]

Bringing back kingsbane was a mistake.

[royal lantern]

? kingsbane is weak af

like

DN envenom does more dmg then kingsbane

[hearty seal]

oh, I remembered one more super annoying thing
why tf is Poison Bomb 8% per CP
why not up it to 15-20% per CP (probably 20 so that 5+ is equally valuable as it is for DS core mark) and nerf damage appropriately

[runic hinge]

Guys rng is cool and fun

[royal lantern]

assa is literally "nothing matters, just press envenom and use all cds togheter" for a good while now

[gusty stag]

I mean depends if we're talking about just playing to 90% of your potential, sure nothing matters then 🙂

[earnest remnant]

last time i really vibed with assa was arberrus farm with imp garrote minmax

[balmy condor]

and how do you expect that to work with 10cp envenoms

[waxen field]

psure as time goes on we'll have a share like evenom 75% of our dmg

[earnest remnant]

nah just 99.8%

[royal lantern]

we literally dont even use 2x shiv for every kingsbane next tier anymore, becase envenom does more dmg lol

[misty holly]

double proc

[golden loom]

you are not playing 10% more optimally if you are trying to pool

[hollow cedar]

bring back sepsis

[hearty seal]

isn't max CP amount 9 (7+2 supercharged)?

[royal lantern]

tf are you talking abot

[balmy condor]

[balmy condor]

forced induction is 3

[runic hinge]

I don’t have any potential

[balmy condor]

but even with 9, 9*15 is 135

so hows that work

[hearty seal]

anyways, could insert an extra scaling component for CP beyond 5

[balmy condor]

yeah but why

like why go through the work

[hearty seal]

to avoid RNG on it, I'd say

makes stuff more consistent

[royal lantern]

poison bomb doesnt matter, so why

its a proc

[balmy condor]

I mean it does matter

[royal lantern]

its not legion PB which did hge dmg

[balmy condor]

But that’s not where the rng is

8% per cp is already like pretty consistent honestly

Especially with envenom being spammed to shit

It evens out pretty quick

[humble verge]

damn

[humble verge]

hes still not done us

[balmy condor]

If you want to meaningfully target rng you gotta look at trinket, big procs like weapon enchants, guaranteeing crits like they do with darkest night, etc

[flint siren]

Don't you just make it rng again then?

And either way
Having it every finisher hit weaker or every other but stronger is kinda a wash, innit?
Ig you get the sound and visual effects more often, for better or worse.
Like, it isn't a once every 2min proc that does 80% of you damage in a pull if it happens at a good time.

[upper timber]

bring back poison bombs on rupture 🙃

[hearty seal]

nah if it's a damage increase past 5 CP, it's not RNG

[balmy condor]

That’s a nightmare to tune

[vague widget]

Now you've also created a scenario where you only want in at max points or it's lost damage.

[gusty stag]

Show me your 100 logs not pooling caring about your cd windows 😄

If pooling doesnt matter, why does thistle tea matter for energy?

[balmy condor]

It doesn’t

[gusty stag]

Okay so you're constantly sitting on 10 energy outside of cooldown windows? 🙂

[balmy condor]

Yes

[hearty seal]

do you only want every finisher at max points? technically yes due to energy/gcd efficiency, but functionally you probably don't force those outside of guaranteed crit envenoms

[gusty stag]

So the game is eating all your thistle tea charges

[balmy condor]

Yes

[gusty stag]

Sounds really optimal

[balmy condor]

Well no cause cd timing

[golden loom]

well I only have a 100 parse on LFR bloodbound, but heres a 99 where I slam like a dog https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/yV18T796DHkYBzr3?fight=15&type=damage-done&source=7

[balmy condor]

But that’s probably over your head

[spice surge]

Youll have thistle tea for kb anyway

Because it gets ready when kb gets ready

[royal lantern]

tea has 1 min cd

kb has 1min cd

deathmark has 2 min cd

you literally always have a tea for your cds

[soft surge]

These buffs don't really..... do anything?" how does by a buff not do anything? by definition it does, does it not

or are you reffering to rotation or something

[gusty stag]

So you're using 1 thistle tea for your cd windows?

[golden loom]

macro tea to shiv, and you will use 2 atleast 🙂

[balmy condor]

Sims don’t play around envenom uptime, nor do they play around the energy from tea, nor do they try to avoid tea’s autoproc

[gusty stag]

a 6 sec 13,6% mastery buff into a 16 seconds cd window?

[balmy condor]

Cause it’s not worth it

[spice surge]

You just said energy matters

[royal lantern]

do yo know how kingsbane works

[spice surge]

If you use two thistle teas during deathmark youll be wasting energy

[gusty stag]

But if you're not pooling, you will only have 1 charge of tea

[balmy condor]

Yes

[runic hinge]

Do you know how much 13.6% mastery for 6 seconds actually gives you for damage

[balmy condor]

You’ll always get 1 charge for your kb

[waxen field]

at least 1 more dmg

[runic hinge]

Maybe!

[gusty stag]

Yes.. 13,6% more dmg on all poison and bleeds lol

[spice surge]

No

Thats not how mastery works

[soft surge]

@balmy condor "These buffs don't really..... do anything?" how does a buff not do anything? by definition it does, does it not?
or are you reffering to rotation or something

[spice surge]

Unless you literally have 0 mastery (and nothing from baseline)

[hearty seal]

p sure it's more than 13.6% already, I think the tooltip says 19.6% on my rogue?

[balmy condor]

It’s 13.6

[royal lantern]

they dont really do anything

small aoe buff in m+, thats it

the shiv change is really weird

[astral oxide]

Im trying to catch up in chat but is a KB + Tea macro good?

[spice surge]

Thats for sub

[spice surge]

!shiv

[balmy condor]

!tea

[prisma monolith]

Shiv/Tea Macro
With this you will not accidently use more than 1 charge of tea if youre spamming:

/cast Shiv 
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null

[gusty stag]

You gotta be trolling now?

[soft surge]

weird is something id say a weird change is more than something

[gusty stag]

Thats LITERALLY how it works Eleem 🙂

[spice surge]

Ok how much more is 1.83 compared to 1.69

[gusty stag]

83-69 is 13.6%

😄

bro

stop

[spice surge]

No

[waxen field]

you gotta divide

[spice surge]

1.83 is 8.3% more than 1.69

Your stuff does 8.3% more damage

[balmy condor]

I’m developing a drinking problem

[spice surge]

Not 13.6%

[indigo mulch]

[subtle tundra]

so much talking...

[subtle tundra]

hi i drank wine

[hearty seal]

the british kind?

[golden loom]

I am already drunk and looking at this math is really making it better

[gusty stag]

You really just want find a way to calculate it so you don't lose an argument lol

[spice surge]

Respectfully youre dumb as shit.

[gusty stag]

Why do you include the base of 100

[royal lantern]

the monster energy kind

[golden loom]

can u now link me a 100 log where u pooled

[gusty stag]

If its 169 to 183 its still increased BY 13.6%

[balmy condor]

The kind where I wanna take off the belt and this channel is the step child of the family

[red schooner]

so, standard evening in this channel then

[soft surge]

"buffs are around 3% in +"(huge for the majority of wow gamers, the majoriry enjoying m+ as theres nothing else to enjoy in the game)

[spice surge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGOMLR_4zD4

[gusty stag]

Bro you're interpeting it like you want 😄

[indigo mulch]

Why i'm i feeling strangely happy reading that?

[balmy condor]

Just give up man let the guy pool idk

[gusty stag]

If something is increased by 100%, it's 50% of the orignal value

[golden loom]

its kinda more that its only slight aoe damage, while not really affecting m+ singletarget (which is our biggest weakness atm) damage so doesnt really change much

[waxen field]

what

[balmy condor]

If he doesn’t trust sim numbers saying it doesn’t matter, percentages are fucked

Just gotta let it go

[soft surge]

i just hope we are still getting semi insta invites to keys

[gusty stag]

If you have 100 and you increase the value by 100%, you will get 200. yes 200 is not 100% of the original value it's 50%.

[subtle tundra]

let placebo take its place

[soft surge]

my 640 ww doesnt get these invites

[subtle tundra]

pooling is placebo

[waxen field]

whaaat

[soft surge]

cos the ww stigma

[subtle tundra]

ww sigma

[gusty stag]

You're trying to argue its not increased by 13.6% because its not 13.6% of the orignal intended value. Which is essentially placebo math

[soft surge]

i dont ever want that

[subtle tundra]

youre so right

[spice surge]

If you have 200 and add 14, is that 14% more?

[gusty stag]

Im not saying it is

[subtle tundra]

eleem... take the L

[hearty seal]

aren't WW slated to be pretty high tier next season (for M+)?

[balmy condor]

Placebo math is a new one

[gusty stag]

Im saying if you add 14% to 200, you add 14%.

[subtle tundra]

yeah next tier, he was talking about this tier

ww is shite

[red schooner]

This is giving me vibes of that 'How many days are there in a week' conversation on the bodybuilding forums

[soft surge]

yea theyre meant to be good next tier idk but s1 everyone thought of them as shit

[hollow river]

[hearty seal]

rn yeah, but things are gonna change p soon

[spice surge]

So 14% of 200 is 14?

[soft surge]

even at 639 equip in a 12

[hollow river]

what is with patch weeks bringing out absolute NPCs man

[gusty stag]

Eleem, stop it. You just don't want to hear it.

[waxen field]

im so glad im not doing a math major otherwise my skull would already be cracked open

[red schooner]

makes the channel fun as fuck to watch though

[balmy condor]

Since the weeks rotate back through themselves, a week is a circle and doesn’t have an end, so technically there are infinite days in a week

Call that shit placebo math on god fr

[hollow river]

its not fun as fuck when some of them end up in my DMs

[soft surge]

iv probably played more specs at a notable level than you have eaten different flavors cheetos kid pipe down

[royal lantern]

bruh

[hearty seal]

aight so I'm just gonna try to slam now, one less worry (and ST is pretty relaxed anyways)

[subtle tundra]

i would kill myself if i couldnt feel the happiness of feeling full after eating

i love eating

[golden loom]

slamming is life

[gusty stag]

If you increase the number 100 by 13.6%, the value 13.6 is not 13.6% no. it's less, but the increase is still 13.6% for gods sake 😄

[hollow river]

wtf are you talking about is this a cringe joke or what

[vague widget]

Oddly specific weird take. I thank you for all you guys do but this chat gets wild.

[gusty stag]

Go run some stocks and come back and you'll learn about it.

[tawdry halo]

https://tenor.com/view/혼파망-피자-당황-community-chaos-gif-16635574

Me waking up

Wtf

[warm furnace]

I feel really blind but how do we get a dispel from Vanish? Do we vanish the cast to avoid it?

[hearty seal]

it's a snare/slow

so vanish removes it

[warm furnace]

OH

[royal lantern]

vanish removes roots/slows

[warm furnace]

thanks

[plush isle]

Real Question should be why do you have 23k mastery and how does on learn this technique

[golden loom]

now thats nearing mastery cap!!!!! (sorry)

[balmy condor]

“Oddly specific weird take” is just the summary of the channel. People would rather throw themselves off a cliff than stop overthinking pointless things they’ll never benefit from

It’s always been like this

[bleak ledge]

whats the yellow hit cap next tier

[gusty stag]

I just funneled everything to mastery 😛

Statcaps are fake right

[soft surge]

i have thistle tea at middle mouse button click. its an easy press and will always be pressed on opener in mythic+ as therwise its macrod to shiv which isnt pressed untill like 15 secs into a pull

[golden loom]

6% but rogue is mainly white hits so u want 23% (impossible)

[hearty seal]

equip every item you find with +hit obvs

[red schooner]

what about expertise?

[royal lantern]

"crit mastery is the BiS stats" or smth like that, idk

[gusty stag]

not impossible 😛

[balmy condor]

Who said anything about stat caps

[gusty stag]

nothing it was a bland joke lol

[soft surge]

wth is up with stat caps btw. im already hitting cap on crit and mastery now. what happens next patch

[earnest remnant]

you uninstall the game

[golden loom]

lowkey how bad is macroing tea to ambush if u are pure m+ing

[earnest remnant]

happens automatically

[balmy condor]

Has the rest of this brain spinning conversation also been a bland joke