assassination

[umbral sierra]

the only one saying the points im making are irrelevant are u, the guy arguing about outlaw in the assassination channel

[feral wasp]

do you prefer more slash slash or pew pew outlaw?

[pale spear]

pew pew

[marble hemlock]

they slapped a cap on everyone, and removing the cap on outlaw would lead to 1 of 2 situations

1. itd still be ass on large-scale aoe, but good on cleave (which it is already)
2. itd be good on large-scale aoe, but then would need tuning to lower its low-target cleave damage.

removing, increasing or adding more caps aint gonna fix any of that. the fundamental issue is that BF Is the ONLY meaningful aoe damage the spec does, and theres another spec where that is the same, which is shadowpriest, and you only have to look at psychic link and priest viability in the meta to recognize that constantly buffing or nerfing that button is NOT fixing viabilityi ssues, as shadow has been op and useless DESPITE having "uncapped" aoe through psychic link.

[iron carbon]

Can't agree more

[subtle tundra]

pew pew my brains

[marble hemlock]

so please explain to me how uncapping BF is anything but a "itd feel better" issue, that would last a whole of like 2 weeks until youd still not get invited to keys for the same fucking reason

[feral wasp]

just bring the gangplank outlaw rework and watch the outlaw player number rise

[subtle tundra]

idk if they uncap bladeflurry its impossible to have the spec do both ST and AOE, you have to compromise one of them

[marble hemlock]

or would be op for the same fucking reason that SP was

[pale spear]

barrels as an aoe cooldown would be sick af

[bleak spoke]

making it feel better is worth something imo

[subtle tundra]

it would be impossible to balance

[iron carbon]

I would pay to have it tbh

[midnight mist]

Everyone is thinking it buddy, they just don't want risking interacting with you

[real granite]

there is a difference beetwen carrying a big pull and doing aug damage

xD

[marble hemlock]

no, its not. because that feeling would disappear after a week of people realizing "wait, this spec still has a dogshit damage profile and no cooldowns, it still sucks". or, alternative, theyd overtune it to the point SP was in a few seasons, and people would go "yay, outlaw is so fun now (cause it deals stupid amounts of damage) and then it inevitably gets nerfed, and the ONLY thing they can nerf is BF, and then we have to implement a 7year slowmode in outlaw channel

[pale spear]

i see what you mean now actually

[umbral sierra]

only way the uncap works is if it does less damage beyond 8 targets. even then hitting 8 enemys for 100 now vs hitting 16 targets for 50 damage after they uncap it. is still 800 damage

[feral wasp]

no worries, outlaw still does more damage than shadow

[bleak spoke]

i understand seli, i just have probably irrational feelings baout this that will never really go away though

[midnight mist]

You really think that if you uncap outlaw rn it changes anything? Other than maybe I can be not absolutely useless in bigger pull, I would still be third DPS, but at least not under tank

Idk maybe you need to play outlaw to get an idea

I don't think I'm biased at all here btw

[pale spear]

i would honestly take a nerf for blade flurry while mbe being uncapped and then an actualy aoe cooldown or proper burst cd

[midnight mist]

I know you think I am

[bleak spoke]

i really do think that a hard cap is fucking crazy though

[marble hemlock]

i dont hate myself enough for that

[bleak spoke]

like a sqrt cap is surely okay

[midnight mist]

But you can literally soft cap bf tomorrow

And it does nothing

Only thing it does is that outlaw is relevant in nw

[pale spear]

right?

[marble hemlock]

outlaw has a lot of issues. capped BF aint one of them. personally id much perfer caps to return and for specs to have individual niches in aoe, with encounter and dungeon design being tailored around different sets of damage profiles and caps in different parts of the dungeon

[midnight mist]

Instead of being absolute terrible worse spec in the game

Capped bf is litteraly one of ghem

Why

[pale spear]

this i can agree with

[marble hemlock]

so, what about all the uncapped specs that are trash in NW too?

if the cap is the problem

what do we do for them

[midnight mist]

Why is an assa player that refuse to touch outlaw telling me what are the issues with my spec rn

I'm sorry

[bleak spoke]

i still want uncap + bf charges back is the real thing, seli

[feral wasp]

wait is outlaw the worst spec right now? I thought it was windwalker

[bleak spoke]

like i think the design space that it occupies with infinite blade flurry is fucking stupid

[marble hemlock]

idk, why is an outlaw player in assa whining about outlaw for 2 hours?

[midnight mist]

Buff them cause they are probably mega undertuned

[marble hemlock]

clearly you came here for assa player opinions

[umbral sierra]

why is the outlaw player complaing about his spec in the assassination chanel

[marble hemlock]

else you wouldnt be here

[midnight mist]

Cause I have assa players answering me and spreading misinformation

[marble hemlock]

its not like i come to outlaw to tell you the outlaw problems

[midnight mist]

I feel obligated to answer

[real granite]

maybe cause assa channel is 80% of rogue community this patch xD

[subtle tundra]

unfortunately

[marble hemlock]

i dont recall anyone asking you to come here to whine about outlaw today tho

you just showed up

[subtle tundra]

make assa the dot spec again so people dislike the gameplay and go to #outlaw

[marble hemlock]

of your own volition

so i give you my opinion in turn

you can feel free to disregard it, ofc

just because i havent played outlaw

[midnight mist]

People were spreading misinformation about my spec in that channel

What can I do

[onyx rock]

One of the best assa players there ever was and maybe one of the best m+ players in general tbh.

[subtle tundra]

dont spec iron wire

[midnight mist]

So?

[subtle tundra]

omg seli you have a fan

[royal lantern]

takes like that is why i cant take that seriously

like sorry, but did you see shit like ww monk rn lol

[brisk kiln]

when in raid are you supposed to avoid thistle tea auto proc when not in CDs?

[subtle tundra]

yea LOL

[midnight mist]

In nw* don't get that out of context pls

[royal lantern]

!tea

[prisma monolith]

Shiv/Tea Macro
With this you will not accidently use more than 1 charge of tea if youre spamming:

/cast Shiv 
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null

[subtle tundra]

youre probably better on outlaw in nw than playing a ww

[marble hemlock]

never mind the fact that ive played the game for 20 years and have a fairly good understanding of core gameplay design and the issues that classes have had over the course of 20y, making me recognize that the issue outlaw has TODAY, are nothing new. and ive seen multiple paths that blizzard has taken in the past, and guess what, none of them solved the problems that outlaw faces, cause the issues outlaw faces cannot be solved with bandaid fixes.

could you be less garbage in a dungeon like NW with uncapped bf? sure. is that the problem? no. its terrible dungeon design that is the problem, because its not just a capped class like outlaw that is fucking garbage in NW, theres like 15 other, uncapped, classes that suck in that dungeon too.

[brisk kiln]

bro not what i asked

[midnight mist]

Ye idk

[umbral sierra]

this is logs for necro wake the last 2 weeks and wow outlaw is higher than r druid dev evoker sub rogue bm and hpriest but its somehow the "worst"

[midnight mist]

I refuse to believe you truly believe that

[marble hemlock]

and as much as you dont care about any of those other classes, but blizzard does.

[left osprey]

anyone knows some helpful macros for assa ?

[royal lantern]

you use tea with shiv, thats it

if it procs, w/e, doesnt matter

[midnight mist]

You can watch me play a nw one day, doing less than tank on every relevant packs

[real granite]

those charts are the most intoxicated source of statistics ever possible

[midnight mist]

And that's literally only cause of target cap

[subtle tundra]

what do those bars even mean

LOL

[midnight mist]

And idk how that's fine

[marble hemlock]

there kinda arent any, unless you play fatebound, where youd set up a macro for coldblood

[midnight mist]

It's points btw

[subtle tundra]

holy shit

[midnight mist]

Dude iss still lost

[feral wasp]

big bar = big dam

[marble hemlock]

who said thats fine?

[left osprey]

trinket + deathmark or smth like that is useless ?

[marble hemlock]

like

[marble tusk]

Does Caustic Spatter work on Kingsbane damage?

[subtle tundra]

not what those mean

[left osprey]

cause of the global cd

[marble hemlock]

why are you strawmanning this hard.

i literally agree with you on the problem

i just dont agree with your solution to the problem

[pale spear]

i personally think that blizzard should start by hiring a dev to actually work on rogues

[subtle tundra]

thats the most basic of basics macro

[pale spear]

instead of the current intern

[umbral sierra]

yes

[subtle tundra]

used on basically all specs

[onyx rock]

[left osprey]

yeah im asking as a person who never used macros

[subtle tundra]

yea then dm + trinket is good

[left osprey]

and why im getting answers from cat and turle lol

[final dawn]

How can u have never used macros

[marble hemlock]

i recognize what outlaws problems are, i just dont think that the solutions people are suggesting are the best, which is my personal opinion based on my experience in the game. and it just differs from yours. idk why its so important for you to convince me otherwise, but im flattered

[subtle tundra]

but not always, transmitter for example you may want to use before

[umbral sierra]

new players are coming to wow

dont berate the dude for not knowing

[left osprey]

XD cause i was thinking that after global cd its completly pointless since you cannot click all in same button

[left osprey]

nice avatar

[umbral sierra]

really need to add a system like the ffIV sprout's

[umbral sierra]

not everything is on gcd

[final dawn]

!tea

[prisma monolith]

Shiv/Tea Macro
With this you will not accidently use more than 1 charge of tea if youre spamming:

/cast Shiv 
/castsequence reset=5 Thistle Tea, null

[marble hemlock]

theres a few super super basic ones like that, ye

[subtle tundra]

thanks!

[marble hemlock]

its like, shiv macro these days is fine to have, trinket+CD is okay, coldblood macro for fatebound, tricks macro maybe. thats about it

compared to other classes, we dont do much with macros

[real granite]

ok then, how would you make outlaw do relevant damage in relevant pulls, without uncapping bf, and without adding them a caustic style talent or any other new skill?

[marble hemlock]

outlaw already has a caustic style talent. its called bladeflurry.

[left osprey]

can you send me some of your basic macros on priv a cat avatar ?

[real granite]

bingo

xD

[left osprey]

i will be like egiptian people for you after that

[marble hemlock]

so the spec is fundamentally fucked

just like any other bladeflurry-esque spec

and if anybody genuinely thinks, spatter is the reason assa is good rn, they never played assa either

[feral wasp]

add samira ult to outlaw as a cd, big pull damage is solved

[real granite]

and now, how would you make bf do decent damage in big pulls without skyrocketing st?

[left osprey]

XDD

[marble hemlock]

exactly. you cant.

[pale spear]

this guy gets it. just give outlaw rogue a bunch of random pirate/gunslinger themed league champ abilities

[subtle tundra]

you make bladeflurry stackk

like envenom

instead of doing x2 damage, it increases targets hit

[real granite]

and why converting hard cap into soft cap is not a solution?

[desert vault]

So on brood, we are only getting to about 40-50% right now, my logs just have my caustic splatter quite low. Most pulls envenom is higher and often times ct and cs are near equal. Not sure what I am missing really? Just keep cs up on boss at all times? Once adds gripped ct. maybe adds are just dying too fast? Not casting enough envenoms while adds are up?

[left osprey]

saint turtle can you give me some of your basic macros for assa on priv ?

[feral wasp]

this wouldnt be fun to press because of gcd though

[vernal turret]

Gunshoot in barrels!!

[pale spear]

exactly!!

[marble hemlock]

imo outlaw needs it CDR massively toned down, have BF scale past 8targets with lowered damage like verything else in the game, add some major cooldowns on st and aoe, that are separate, i.e. you could bring back cannonball barrage and have it actually deal a fuckton of damage, but not be reduced by RB, and then add something else for singletarget, maybe some hit-combo style CD that gives it some peaks in its st profile, that dont translate well into aoe

[subtle tundra]

i dont use macros except deathmark + trinket

[left osprey]

oh saint turtle you failed me 🥲

[marble hemlock]

idk why they ever removed cannonball barrage. was such a good button to press

and very thematic too

it juist never did any damage

[subtle tundra]

this turtle is not a saint... its doing cocaine while humping another turtle

[marble hemlock]

so it was always trash

[pale spear]

wait that was a thing????

[left osprey]

yeah thats why it is saint

[real granite]

isnt bf scale past 8 targets with lowered damage what zacro was vouching for the entire comvo? or am i tripping now

i mean, all those other additions are fine

but converting bf into softcap is the bare minimun

[marble hemlock]

its the only thing hes vouching for, while saying that the damage profile isnt the issue (it is), that cdr isnt the issue (it is), that it needs bigger melee range again (it doesnt), and needs to keep its highly reactive high apm gameplay (it shouldnt)

theres a bit more to it than that one thing

and just doing one of them in a vacuum

[subtle tundra]

making their only cooldown have permanent uptime is not healthy

[real granite]

well, yeah, im not with him on that

[marble hemlock]

is not gonna solve shit

because it didnt solve shit for shadowpriest

or feral

or assa

[real granite]

outlaw has other issues aside from bf cap

[marble hemlock]

and it aint gonna fix shit for outlaw either

idk why outlaw thinks its somehow special that it would magically be better

if ALL the other bf-style classes are not magically better

[real granite]

well

[pale spear]

make outlaw a ranged pistol spec with gangplank barrels

fixed it

[real granite]

its a easy change, that doesnt require much testing, and would make the spec a bit more playable

[marble hemlock]

assa didnt become viable when caustic was introduced either. SP was op for a tier with psychic link, then it was dogshit again, then it was op again etc.

Feral was good for 1 tier despite having a BF style uncapped talent the entire time since S1 DF, and its been dogshit since S2

[real granite]

so its fair its the one that should be pushed up first

[marble hemlock]

"doesnt require much testing"

are you like

living in an alternate reality

https://i.imgur.com/nfIkMLV.jpeg

"doesnt require much testing/tuning"

???

[real granite]

why are you comparing this to sp

[marble hemlock]

because its the same fucking thing?

[real granite]

sp has the pi problem, its another completly issue

[winged widget]

because it's the same thing

Do your ST rotation while doing aoe dmg for free kinda of talent

[marble hemlock]

https://i.imgur.com/CoHsR3y.jpeg

why do you think

this ability

is any different than BF

?

[subtle tundra]

HUH

[real granite]

ok, argument that without linking an out of context image

[subtle tundra]

nah

[winged widget]

I dont think PI is a priest issue at all

lmao

[pale spear]

cause it is? and completely different ways of playing

like

[marble hemlock]

and its the single-most changed ability in the game's history at this point, especially in recent expansions, because of how much of a headache it is to tune correctly

[subtle tundra]

pi is just a bonus

[pale spear]

one being melee and the other being ranged caster lul

[real granite]

ok forge the pi thing, dont go out of rails

[marble hemlock]

so anybody saying "just uncap BF, easy fix" is just not playing the same game

[subtle tundra]

meta is based around the highest dps

[umbral sierra]

its not hard capped to 8 targets and doesnt do reduced damage beyond 8

[subtle tundra]

everything else is bonus

[umbral sierra]

exception of aug

[drifting cloud]

dont cleave off your st dmg while being a triple dps class unless youre mage because then youre either gonna be OP or in tuning purgatory

see you next tier

[winged widget]

that can also survive the one shots

[umbral sierra]

this

[subtle tundra]

well no dps brings tank survivability + more healing

aug is an exception

truly

[marble hemlock]

https://i.imgur.com/pMRkCCm.jpeg

the application of VT

is capped to 8 targets

through shadowcrash

is it a 1:1 comparison? ofc not

[iron carbon]

You're supposed to dot to 12 target btw

[umbral sierra]

thats fair

[midnight mist]

I have been playing outlaw non stop every season at a very high level in m+, and every season the biggest hold back that make my spec fall off dramatically in certain dungeon/potentially unviable, is target cap

[iron carbon]

But if you limit to crash, yes

[marble hemlock]

would it improve outlaws damage in certain situations? yeah. would it make outlaw viable? fuck no.

[marble hemlock]

this

[royal lantern]

its called Fire Mage because they put Blizz HQ on fire if they are not meta for 2more months

[marble hemlock]

zac, you wont be able to convince me of "just uncap outlaw" on this, because i simply dont agree with it. target cap hasnt and never will be the #1 issue why classes cant succeed in m+, its cooldowns. because this game has been turned int oa cooldown syncing shitfest for a long time now.

caustic didnt make assa good in m+ all of a sudden. it was the fact we suddenly had a strong CD to go with it.

so if youre gonna champion for uncapping BF and you want me to convince you to support you, then champion for more than just 1 change.

because just 1 change wont fix shit

[midnight mist]

I don't want more because I like outlaw not having cds, sure it hurts it's viability but I think it can also be good, and it's unique

And is one of the reason I love outlaw

Probably the main reason

[real granite]

"outlaws need a completly tree rework with bf soft cap, bring back old skills and new damage profile"
also
"making bf soft cap are you crazy? do you know how much testing and numbers catstrophy that would mean? look this image!"

[marble wagon]

tere is two combat rogue in top 15 damage parse for all rogue on necrotic wont uncap make it too op?

[marble hemlock]

outlaw is a clownfiesta of ideas that somehow ended up being a fairly fun and reactive spec, but its also a nightmare of a spec to teach anybody to play, it has major accessibility issues as a result, and people need to stop stroking their ego over how difficult it is to play and allow devs to make fundamental changes to the core gameplay loop without sending LITERAL deathtreats to the devs everytime it happens

[marble hemlock]

and this is the problem. you cant have a sustained DPS spec succeed in m+. its just not possible. not since legion

why do i know this?

because ive been onetricking a sustained DPS spec in keys ever since legion

and it has been dogshit in keys ever since legion, until they gave us a bunch of new toys, most of which i hate

fuck IC

fuck spatter

[midnight mist]

But that's false tho

[iron carbon]

U played bfa?

[marble hemlock]

i mean i made it work in BFA

but that was like

[midnight mist]

Outlaw has been good and is sometimes good even without cds

[marble hemlock]

me literally playing with the best m+ players in the world

who carried my ass sometimes

assa was fair in bfa

cuz echoing blades was stupid

it sucked massive dick in SL

and sucked even bigger dick in DF Until the rework

and even then it still sucked outside of DM/KB/Spatter

[marble hemlock]

i mean, its good now too, no? it just sucks in NW? isnt that what you said?

and NW Is a dogshit dungeon that shouldnt even exist

its been awful in SL, and its awful now. its not to be taken seriously as a dungeon

[midnight mist]

Well rn it's also probably a tad undertuned but that's mostly cause some other specs are way too overtuned,
But ye in essence I do think outlaw can be competitive in most dungeons

[rotund idol]

You also have issue stonevault first pull, and ara kara first pull tbh

Not as bad as NW but you still do tank damage

[midnight mist]

The issue just arrise when you try doing keys like nw

[rotund idol]

But you pull ahead in overall afterwards in those dungeons

[midnight mist]

Ara is fake idc about it

It's only smaly pad

[marble hemlock]

exactly how assa played in bfa, fwiw.

[rotund idol]

Stonevault is rough tho

[midnight mist]

Stonevault is also an issue but it's not bad hard

[marble hemlock]

where outlaw was stupidly op

cuz wits bandaid fix

to me, having different damage profiles and caps is a good thing. idk why blizz went back on target caps. well i know why, but it was a bad decision imo.

target caps were good for the game, and we should have more of them again, not less.

[rotund idol]

Idk for me the bigger problem is the incompatability with aug, especially when you push high keys

It makes it a bit unviable

[marble hemlock]

thats another contributing factor, ye

but we once again come back to

[midnight mist]

Well I think that's more of an Aug issue tho

[marble hemlock]

"do you have CDs? great, youre a good aug spec"

[midnight mist]

Than outlaw

[rotund idol]

Yeah its an aug issue

[marble hemlock]

almost all of the issues many classes end up facing these days

come down to the cd-heavy design weve had since bfa

[midnight mist]

Aug just works so much better with op specs and is worse with worse specs

[marble hemlock]

where classes suddenly do 300% more damage during their CDs, instead of 30

[midnight mist]

Like it increase the gap between bad and good to op and terrible

Basically

[subtle tundra]

Only made majorly worse in df

[marble hemlock]

aug works well with stupid-cd based specs, not with op specs.

please dont conflate the two

[subtle tundra]

Now every class has 3 diff cds

[midnight mist]

It's both tho

It's litteraly both

[marble hemlock]

no its not

[midnight mist]

It is

[marble hemlock]

one causes the other

[arctic socket]

Aug goes hard with ret

[midnight mist]

If you buff a bad spec you are doing less damage than if you buff a good spec, that's litteraly the whole point

[rotund idol]

I mean aug worked pretty well with outlaw when we had coup bug

[marble hemlock]

have stupid cds? congrats, youre a good aug spec.

[midnight mist]

Even ignoring cds

[marble hemlock]

if aug had a separate build that would buff ramp-based specs or sustained-dps specs, we wouldnt be having this conversation. but it just buffs cd-based specs.

thus it is a cd-based issue.

[midnight mist]

Like if you play aug in a comp that average less damage your Aug also does less damage

[marble hemlock]

who cares about overall damage when you dont play around overall, you play around doing some dumbfuck pulls where you melt everything in 20sec

[midnight mist]

That's not really true for any other specs

[pale spear]

i aug not just good when theres a big difference in specs dmg? 💀

cause they can buff the broken specs to be more broken

[midnight mist]

I mean that's what Im saying tho idk

[pale spear]

yeye

[midnight mist]

Sure CDs specs are also better with aug

But

[marble hemlock]

doesnt matter if you do high overall if you dont do stupid aoe on demand on a 1 or 2minute CD

[pale spear]

doesnt really matter if cd or sustained dps

[midnight mist]

Like enhance could have no cds, the damage it does is just so high it still would be the best Aug spec

Idk

[marble hemlock]

you can have 2 specs that both do stupidly op overall, one is a 2min cd based spec, one just does the same damage with no CDs whatsoever. who is the aug significantly better for? yeah, exactly. so please dont say its not a cd-based issue

[midnight mist]

Ok but

It's both

[marble hemlock]

[midnight mist]

I said its both xd

[verbal flower]

what are our thoughts on broodtwister egg?

[pale spear]

i mean its probs better for cd based specs, but the main thing its good for are just specs that do high dmg no? xd

[marble hemlock]

sims high, kinda ass to play, difficult to judge how good it really is in realworld scenarios

[pale spear]

get the ara kara egg and you have best trinket combo in game

[subtle tundra]

im getting it fo so today

[marble hemlock]

obviously, but if you play an aug, you play it to specifically boost survivability and to boost cd-based damage, so you can do pulls that you wouldnt be able to do with any other camp

[subtle tundra]

and to fucking survive

[pale spear]

this is mainly for high level keys tho no?

[subtle tundra]

gl city bosses

without aug

[pale spear]

which i know they are kinda only relevant there

[marble hemlock]

if you play enhance and another high sustained damage spec that isnt really built around cooldowns, then you dont play aug as the third dps

because aug at this point is only worth it for cd based pulls and survivability

[pale spear]

dont know if i remember correctly, but we saw that in the start of season 3 in df right? where aug wasnt played that much cause sustained dps specs were good then? or am i just completely off 💀

[marble hemlock]

i think people in general overvalue aug a lot for DPS-purposes

first and foremost its good cuz it makes runs safer

[pale spear]

also true, when playing low keys i see augs sign up and just think they're useless for that.

[rotund idol]

Aug should just be a damage boost ngl if you add survivability (tank+healer) to it it makes it mandatory in the highest keys

[marble hemlock]

secondly, it allowed for a bunch of mechanical things that no other class could, i.e. avoiding charges or leps by rescuing a ranged DPS to an inaccessible spot

[rotund idol]

Maybe uncommon take

[pale spear]

i just hope they make other support specs to compete mbe

[midnight mist]

Kinda helps that it does the same damage as your second dps anyway tho lol

[pale spear]

or just in general add more specs

[marble hemlock]

imo aug shouldve had a lot more personal damage, and a lot less support damage

[midnight mist]

Aug in a good comp rn does more damage than 80% of the specs in general so

[subtle tundra]

only does cause enha is op

[marble hemlock]

with 2 distinct playstyles, one that lets you boost cd-based classes, and another that lets you boost sustained DPS classes instead

[midnight mist]

Maybe, but that's the whole issue isn't it

[marble hemlock]

but when EM uptime is basically set to 100% either way, its just dumb and boring

if aug had 2 builds, one with EM having like 25% uptime, and one with like 50%, you coudl have distinct builds for distinct classes you wanna buff

and just let it do more damage by itself

but fundamentally aug just wants to buff whoever is bursting rn, which just further goes into the cd-heavy design we have. which sucks ass

[midnight mist]

Well every spec in the game is a 2 min cd class anyway

[marble hemlock]

not anymore

SL made a bunch of classes 1min bursters

which made it even dumber

i remember when a 30% damage amp was a strong CD

nowadays you burst 300% during CDs

and with kits like that, people can do a lot of stupid shit, and any class without cooldowns like that is just left in the dust

outlaw being one of them

[midnight mist]

I don't like cooldowns

It's not even fun to play no cap

[rotund idol]

So what do we do though give outlaw CDS? Or make outlaw do more overall damage, because CDs allow for controlled bursts on prio targets / difficult areas

[tall saffron]

hi guys im trying to sim what gems i should use and sim says all haste crit, did i clicked something wrong?
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/ju9YizEHsuatYZDbWHLVzK

[midnight mist]

Just give outlaw a niche

[marble hemlock]

same

i hate the new assa gameplay a lot

[midnight mist]

Bf cleave the highest targets in priority

[marble hemlock]

i dont like the cd-heavy design for it

[midnight mist]

That's an insane niche no cap

[marble hemlock]

and i certainly dont like spatter or IC

[rotund idol]

Make KS passive and change in into a chain execute? 'killing spree'

[marble hemlock]

main issue with outlaw is that its too difficult already

and too inaccessible

so they need to fix that first

[midnight mist]

I feel it's alright

[rotund idol]

It's pretty easy already tbh

[midnight mist]

They just need to make it not as punishing if you drop ADR

[rotund idol]

Outlaw players just like to say its hard but its pretty easy

[midnight mist]

Which mostly happen if you are bad or if you are having downtime (or you are bad)

[marble hemlock]

ye well, you probably dont have mediocre internet like many people who do not live in the developed world, or dont have a disability that makes pressing buttons every .8sec problematic.

many people do, and outlaw is not a playable spec for them in return.

[midnight mist]

Ok but

Is that an issue

[marble hemlock]

yes

very much so

[midnight mist]

Say I play league and I have bad internet right

[marble hemlock]

accessibility is a MAJOR issue and hurdle

[midnight mist]

I probably won't play something like

An adc

[marble hemlock]

no spec should have 60 apm, let alone >80

[midnight mist]

Or a burst assassin like zed or whatever

I will play ramuss

[rotund idol]

But its how you choose to play outlaw though, you dont need all the 1% min maxes

[midnight mist]

And that's fine isn't it

[rotund idol]

In the end its just build -> finisher

over and over

[midnight mist]

Why not tho

[marble hemlock]

since i dont have brainrot, all the league comparisons go over my head. never played it

[midnight mist]

There is plenty slow specs if you prefer slow specs

[marble hemlock]

i literally just explained it

[pale spear]

fair

[midnight mist]

Ye and I don't get it

[marble hemlock]

ofc you dont

[midnight mist]

Cause you can just chose to not play it

[blazing totem]

but some people do legit enjoy high apm gameplay

[midnight mist]

And play something else

I think it's good that we have different type of gameplay

For different type of people

[rotund idol]

I like the way rogue is rn you have like high apm, med, low

[marble hemlock]

ye, and people who have a lot of options but cant play half of them because of high-ego mindsets like that, just play a different game entirely. they dont play a different spec.

[pale spear]

you can also still play outlaw without reacting perfectly, you just wont have perfect dmg

[rotund idol]

You get to choose between distinct specs with different speeds

[pale spear]

which most wont anyway

[winged widget]

then why not just choose not to play outlaw since it's bad in m+?

[marble hemlock]

nah

cant do that man

[midnight mist]

Bro half the specs in this game are 1 APM 2 buttons wdym

[pale spear]

cause unless you are a legit demonic entity its pretty hard to react perfectly to the procs and gcds

[midnight mist]

Outlaw is the exception not the rule

[pale spear]

dont think a playstyle should get removed due to some people having issues with it

[marble hemlock]

almost all specs have gained apm and speed in the last 2-3 expansions

[marble hemlock]

and yet it happens ALL the time

[midnight mist]

Also I don't get why you say high ego mindset, it's just the type of gameplay I enjoy

[manic quartz]

i dont play outlaw because im like 7 billion years old and dont have the dexterity for it, assa chill gaming ❤️

[marble hemlock]

because the game isnt designed for the select few

but for the masses

[pale spear]

unless its quite literally makes a class unplayable

[midnight mist]

If outlaw was 40 APM I probably wouldn't play it

[midnight mist]

That's why you have so many different specs tho lol

[umbral sierra]

thisis such a cooked take

[marble hemlock]

outlaw quite literally is unplayable for many people who arent terminally online games who spend 8hrs a day playing videogames

[blazing totem]

that's fair and perhaps should be addressed, but I can't agree with you saying "no spec should be 60, let alone >80"

[pale spear]

unplayable or just no perfect dmg rotation?

[blazing totem]

there should be variety, some people like high APM

[rotund idol]

Yeah I think blizzard likes versatile playstyle. 'go assa for dungeon' swap to outlaw for that dungeon etc

Gives players more diversity

[midnight mist]

Every game has hard things and easy things idk

Again in league you have simple champions and more mechanic intensive champions

[marble hemlock]

outlaw feels incredibly terrible to play if you dont get close to optimal GCD usage, because it will do absolutely no damage while being a wet noodle defensively in many non-instanced groups

[midnight mist]

I don't think people that aren't able to play azir are complaining that the champ is too hard

[marble hemlock]

fucking hell stop it with the league comparisons. league is a pvp game

[blazing totem]

but.. then just play something else?

[pale spear]

also outlaw should come with a disclaimer that warns about getting carpal tunnel tho if you want to play it well

[marble hemlock]

fundamentally different playerbase

in a pvp-based game

vs a pve mmo

[blazing totem]

I suck at FPS games and as such I dont play them, many people do

[pale spear]

i mean ye thats what im saying. its not perfect but not unplayable

[blazing totem]

why shoudlnt FPS games be a thing

[pale spear]

i dont think high apm playstyle of outlaw should be removed for accesability, mbe just tune it so its not as punishing for not playing perfectly

[marble hemlock]

i swear, having conversations with outlaw players that arent either devolving into them strawmanning like crazy, or bringing the most ludicrious comparisons that defy any reason or logic, is like an impossible challenge

[pale spear]

cause the thing most outlaw players like about the spec is the high apm

[midnight mist]

Bro what

Maybe you are just an asshole seli

Idk

[marble hemlock]

maybe, yeah

youre certainly entitled to that opinion, and im happy to just have conversations with people who do not think so

im not the one who keeps coming back in here pinging me

[winged widget]

WoW has been focusing a lot on accessibility, so it's kinda strange to keep specific specs outside of this philosophy. no need to make them brainrot, but you still want them to be accessible enough for more people to try them, no?

[marble hemlock]

you are, so clearly you seek my responses/opinions

seems like a you issue

[rotund idol]

[marble hemlock]

ye exactly

[midnight mist]

Idk you seem very angry about us enjoying a spec because of specific things related to that spec

And I don't get it

[pale spear]

i for sure wouldnt mind making outlaw more accesible dont get me wrong

[marble hemlock]

idk why its so difficult for people to recognize that having to press buttons every 0.8sec is just not healthy because a lot of people cant do that due to physical limits, whether that is an actual medfical reason or just bad internet/not being fast players

[midnight mist]

Ina game where there is like 60 different specs to chose from

[pale spear]

but i still think you should be heavily rewarded for playing optimally at high apm

[drifting cloud]

I think the only reasonable solution is to get a job on the rogue dev team, fundamentally change outlaw for the better and then quit

[midnight mist]

But if they can't do that they play something else

[pale spear]

exactly

[midnight mist]

That's like every game dude

[marble hemlock]

feel free to quote a single reply of mine where i seemed angry about outlaw and the way it plays

[midnight mist]

Idk you are insulting outlaw players on every reply

[coral ibex]

is this really the point you think it is when most people in reality play at like 200apm bc they’re spamming every global 4-5 times

[marble hemlock]

i think theres better ways to reward good gameplay, that isnt smashing buttons to amateur-level RTS performance

[marble wagon]

sus

[midnight mist]

Ye and that's what most other specs are doing

Slow button press that are more impactful

[marble hemlock]

really got me there, 3 years apart too

[pale spear]

what?

[midnight mist]

And if you think that's better

[winged widget]

i fail to see the issue

[marble hemlock]

im so angy

[midnight mist]

That's cool

[coral ibex]

why cant there be a spec that goes fast?

[marble hemlock]

literally seething

[rotund idol]

[midnight mist]

But you also have people that enjoy other type of gameplay

And I don't get how that's so out there

[valid leaf]

Outlaw yapping unite!?

[midnight mist]

In a game with 40 diff specs

[blazing totem]

cuz we have to dumb it down so ppl with mcdonalds wifi can enjoy it I guess

[midnight mist]

With different gameplay

Why can't you have fast and slow specs

Xd

[real granite]

specs should not be fast cause ppl with bad internet or medical issues exist

[marble hemlock]

there can, but why do we have to keep pushing the envelope, instead of toning it down across the board. you can still ahve fast specs, but does it have to be a difference between 40 and 80 apm, or could we maybe make it more reasonable?

[real granite]

WHAT

[marble hemlock]

and were back to the strawmans

[midnight mist]

It's reasonable tho

[marble hemlock]

like i ever said "there shouldnt be slow and fast specs"

where did i say that?

[coral ibex]

there’s a spectrum of apm, the choices aren’t 40 or 80

[pale spear]

you just strawmanned like 2 seconds ago man

lmao

[midnight mist]

We have so many people that can play outlaw

[real granite]

.

[marble hemlock]

where?

[midnight mist]

So many people that enjoy outlaw

[coral ibex]

that is a false dichotomy

[midnight mist]

Why do you think it's too fast

[real granite]

there

[midnight mist]

Just cause you decided or what

[winged widget]

Sub goes fast during CDs and then take a chill pill. feels much healthier then unga bunga 24/7 cocaine induced gameplay

[marble hemlock]

because a lot of people say so?

[valid leaf]

Because he too slow

[midnight mist]

You can just play something else

[valid leaf]

Ayyyyyy

[midnight mist]

I don't get it

I'm like so confused rn

If you don't like something you just play something else

It's not like there was no choice

[marble hemlock]

its a consistent complaint of new players who play outlaw. we literally had a random person come in earlier, saying how outlaw was too hectic/fast for them

[midnight mist]

So many specs in this game

[coral ibex]

ok and that’s different to current assa how? why does outlaw have to play the same?

[pale spear]

then the playstyle is not for them no?

[midnight mist]

And so they just play assa instead, how is that an issue lol

I'm so confused rn

[coral ibex]

i don’t understand why people want one spec they probably don’t even play to be different

[pale spear]

thats like the entire appeal of the spec is a high octane playstyle with lots of reactive gameplay

[blazing totem]

and yet I read so many people praise high APM of Fury wars or Outlaws

[wicked quartz]

Idk if anyone answered you but are you trying to sim ST raid?

[midnight mist]

I don't like how slow assa is

[blazing totem]

almsot as if people enjoy different things and almsot as if the game has MANY different specs they can enjoy

[midnight mist]

I don't think assa should be made faster

[marble hemlock]

because i want MORE peopel to play outlaw. and one of the main reasons many people do, is not because its capped, or because it has 8y melee range, or because it has bad damage.

but because it plays bad, to them., dont you want more people to enjoy and play the spec you love? i would.

[pale spear]

aka assasin should surely be faster right?

xd

[midnight mist]

I think a lot of people litteraly fall asleep playing assa

[coral ibex]

why do you care if more people play outlaw?

[winged widget]

which is the reason I stopped playing outlaw entirely during DF season1 despite being my favorite spec in the entire game thematically.
0 need to destroy my fingers for a video game

[midnight mist]

But good thing they can just play something else

[coral ibex]

the outlaw players are happy

[midnight mist]

We don't have to rework assa

[marble hemlock]

LMAO

that made me chuckle

[coral ibex]

happy with the apm bro use your brain

[valid leaf]

What you LMAOing about

Bozo

[rotund idol]

[valid leaf]

We are happy

[pale spear]

thats also fair, but then again, the spec is just not for you then no?

[winged widget]

the ones that stayed might be. but you dont really count the people that move away from the spec due to the high apm, do you?

[marble hemlock]

the real question is why more and more people come in here brigading this entire convo

[coral ibex]

people who like high apm like outlaw

[marble hemlock]

its like the zac fanclub is just coming here to shit on me now

[rotund idol]

Whole channel is yellow

xd

[blazing totem]

or maybe you just ahev dumb takes

[marble hemlock]

cuz i kept disagreeing with him

[coral ibex]

why would you change it to accommodate people who don’t like high apm

[valid leaf]

Because outlaw is superior rogue spec

[marble hemlock]

if you dont enjoy them, just enjoy other takes instead?

[valid leaf]

And we are superior

[coral ibex]

nah bro i just woke up and read your bad take and responded

idc about zacro

no offense zac

[blazing totem]

if I were to use your logic then no, I have to accept only one side

[winged widget]

sure. I moved away that that's it.
BUT, as I've said. the ENTIRE game is moving towards more accessibility, so it makes 0 sense to keep specific specs out of this change

[blazing totem]

apparentyl we cant have diversity

[midnight mist]

All good

[pale spear]

i mean you made some good points and then went back to acting like outlaw should just be turned into a cookie-cutter spec all of sudden. or thats how it sounds atleast

[coral ibex]

when i wanna be a crackhead i play outlaw

when i don’t i don’t

[marble hemlock]

who said that? im just saying what I think is a problem with outlaw. why is everytime someone says smth they dont enjoy about outlaw such a massive issue

[pale spear]

yeeaaaaah

[coral ibex]

[marble hemlock]

that people crawl out of the channel to engage with it

its an assa channel

im an assa enjoyer

i dont enjoy fast paced gameplay

[midnight mist]

You didn't say you didn't enjoy that about outlaw tho, you said you wanted outlaw to be changed

That's like

So different

Xd

[marble hemlock]

so i think that ouatlws high apm and high reactive and not predictive gameplay, is a problem

[blazing totem]

well idk how it started or who started it but you are ranting in assa channel about outlaw issues yourself

[midnight mist]

Well there you go again

[pale spear]

but if all specs have to be accesible for all, then in the end they will all just kinda feel samey no?

[midnight mist]

You don't enjoy it so it's a problem

Suddenly

[marble hemlock]

well maybe read up first then. it started because people from outlaw came in ehre, hours ago, and keep chatting about outlaw shit.

[pale spear]

theres really nothing making outlaw "unplayable" per say, it just not optimal

[midnight mist]

Why can't it just be a spec you don't. Play if you don't enjoy it

[coral ibex]

not going anywhere so whatever

[marble hemlock]

nah, you can just have parameters of what you consider is the "accessible" realm, and then have a wide and diverse spread within those paremeters. to me, 80apm is just unreasonable

[midnight mist]

Actually it all started cause of assa players spreading misinformation about outlaw in the assa channel

[marble hemlock]

okay

and

its the assa channel

[pale spear]

then again 80 or so apm, is for high level play

[marble hemlock]

do people come to the assa channel to find info on outlaw?

[placid adder]

Is outlaw meta?

[midnight mist]

I would rather people not spread missinfo

[valid leaf]

[midnight mist]

But all good cuh

[pale spear]

i mean, it all started with whispyr saying something about "outlaw players will say its in the worst state in years" as if thats not true lmao

[oak tangle]

i need some assistance

on grim batol shadowflame boss, does cloak change the fixate target

[midnight mist]

Ye

[oak tangle]

fffffffffffffffs

[midnight mist]

Vanish as well

And any blind

Like blind blind or blind

[oak tangle]

why does cloak do that

[midnight mist]

Idk

[marble hemlock]

idk, is that such an outlandish take?

[royal lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/shrug-gif-25269231

[oak tangle]

cringe af

[drifting cloud]

magical tether of magicness

[oak tangle]

still timed the 11

but wiped to it

[pale spear]

but, outlaw is like in the worst state it has been in years?

xd

[marble hemlock]

from the outside, it seems that most outlaw players are miserable. and they certainly have reasons to be upset with the current state of the spec

[pale spear]

you even said yourself that outlaw had been good for like 3 expansions so?

[marble hemlock]

well, in m+

outlaw hasnt been good in raids since, like, since it was called combat

[pale spear]

yeah?

[marble hemlock]

which is fucking insane

[pale spear]

so its true?

xD

[midnight mist]

But whisp was saying the opposite tho

Which is what I answered to

[royal lantern]

seli, the problem is

you focus on longterm solutions and try to explain that they shopuld stop giving blizzard signals for "fixes" that are just cheap bandaids that dont fix anything/create more problems down the line (aka what happend with outlaw for literally the last 5+ years)

meanwhile most people dont want longterm solutions

[marble hemlock]

ye. and?

[drifting cloud]

dont slander 16h of emerald nightmare

[midnight mist]

And it's all started from here

[marble hemlock]

oh true

[pale spear]

wtf are we arguing about then 💀

[marble hemlock]

idk?

why do more and more outlaw players pop and, and end up becoming more and more combative in the way they express themselves?

i dont get it

[royal lantern]

get it

more COMBATtive

[marble hemlock]

im just vibing, enjoying talking about game design and stuff

[pale spear]

cause you keep acting like the players of the spec has the worst take on it 💀

[marble hemlock]

cause a bunch of them do

[midnight mist]

Ye you have better takes for sure

[royal lantern]

im gonna be real, "mains" almost always have dogshit takes

we all do

[midnight mist]

All knowing seli

[pale spear]

real tho

[winged widget]

the bias is real

[midnight mist]

Who doesn't like outlaw

And will never touch outlaw

[royal lantern]

i dont have a bias, cus im always correct anyway

[coral ibex]

my mom says my takes are very good

[midnight mist]

But knows everything good and bad about outlaw

And what outlaw should be

[marble hemlock]

idk what i said to live rentfree in your head like this, but im glad i know i have a vacation spot

[midnight mist]

Ye np

[marble hemlock]

based

[pale spear]

and i think most came in after you said that outlaw shouldnt be a high apm spec

which just kind of like

removes the specs niche

[marble hemlock]

is there like a bat signal

that was set off by me saying that

[pale spear]

yes

[marble hemlock]

aight

[lusty kraken]

more like the spec identity

[marble hemlock]

high apm isnt a niche

[pale spear]

ye more accurate word

[solar wyvern]

Hey guys which spec should I play to allow me to have the best opinions?

[winged widget]

i thought the spec identity was gambling addiction

[solar wyvern]

Fire mage?

[midnight mist]

Assa apparently

[marble hemlock]

it definitely is, but spec identities can change, no?

[royal lantern]

like, reminder that warlocks keep telling you how MoP warlock was the best thing since the start of human history

when most of it was the result of "warlock mains make a spec giga op in every single way", and they liked being the #1 everywhere

[tepid breach]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[marble hemlock]

warlock, obviously

[pale spear]

unsubscribed to wow probs

[solar wyvern]

Nah its fire mage

[marble hemlock]

they do have more int

[solar wyvern]

Yep

[lusty kraken]

they already removed acrobatic strikes from outlaw, might as well remove everything that makes it unique

[solar wyvern]

Theyre so smart

They share their int with everyone

3% of it!

[royal lantern]

they didnt remove it, acro still exists and we all take it

[marble hemlock]

extended melee range wasnt unique to outlaw though, not for a long time

[royal lantern]

^ yeha that aswell

[lusty kraken]

you know what I mean, let's not argue semantics

[royal lantern]

feral was the OG range extender spec

[marble hemlock]

in fact, feral had it before we did

[midnight mist]

Ye we had a process of sharing it to everyone before deleting it

[marble hemlock]

think they still do, weirdly enough?

they still suck tho

[midnight mist]

Nah

[marble hemlock]

rip

[royal lantern]

nope

[midnight mist]

Nothing has extended melee anymore

[pale spear]

i think all outlaw abilities should just be rolling d20s to determine the amount of dmg you do

[lusty kraken]

now waiting for bladeflurry to be deleted since they gave it to every rogue spec 👍

[midnight mist]

You know what bugs me the most about not having acro tho

[drifting cloud]

yeah assa niche was terrible aoe, look where we are now!

[solar wyvern]

Tbh removing anchor arms has made me a better player because i cant cheat positioning anymore

[midnight mist]

It's kick range

[blazing totem]

what about stealth

[rotund idol]

oh yeah I feel you on that one

[umbral sierra]

we are still on acro?

[rotund idol]

I missed so many kicks

[solar wyvern]

We never stopped, just paused the convo

Its rogue disc

[midnight mist]

Dh/sham/dk all have long range kicks

[pale spear]

we back to it now tho

hehehe

[midnight mist]

And it just feels ass not having a real kick

[vital haven]

kick should have higher range

we are kicking with our legs

[royal lantern]

ok i dont wanna be that guy

but thats legit a skill issue

[blazing totem]

fr rogue kick should be throwing sand in people's eyes

[valid leaf]

ANLAKIIIII

[marble hemlock]

idk, to me personally, assa isnt better as a spec. it does more dam, sure. its more popular, idk if thats really a good thing seeing all the brainrot in this channel in recent weeks.

Personally i preferred the old assa a lot, but it was significantly more difficult to play and basically made the spec unplayable in m+ for many people, so i see why they made the change

[lusty kraken]

but rogue kick is just a normal kick

[marble hemlock]

blizz has put a lot of effort into making specs more accessible, removing button bloat etc.

[pale spear]

i never understood old assasination

[spice surge]

They increased blade flurry range but kept nimble flurry range the same despite the copy paste 💀

[umbral sierra]

"not having a real kick" meanwhile demo locks 30 second cd kick evokers 40 second cd kick

[blazing totem]

I've always found pride in the fact that everyone calls interrupts "kick" which is rogue's spell

[valid leaf]

Old assa=Hard

[midnight mist]

You sure about that ?

[rotund idol]

yeah ok thats rough for real

[valid leaf]

Now thats a celestial grade yapp

[rotund idol]

in this tier

[umbral sierra]

outside of shaman the other classes long range kicks require talents

[royal lantern]

cus rogues where mostly in interupt duty back in the days

[marble hemlock]

old assa was just full multi-dot based gameplay, from melee, which i liked very much

[royal lantern]

(atleast i was)

[umbral sierra]

and shaman is a caster primarily so it having ranged kick makes sense

[drifting cloud]

hello vrgL whoever you are, like 95% of your posts are in outlaw lets keep that ratio the same

[midnight mist]

Bf range is lower than like shuriken storm rn, it's around 7/8 I think?

[blazing totem]

ah so it's actually rooted in history? that's pretty cool

[umbral sierra]

priest not having a kick just a 45 second cd silence

[midnight mist]

Surely they directly put nimble at the same range

[valid leaf]

Who are you to tell me where i spread my plague?

[solar wyvern]

Lmfao nice joke

[pale spear]

ye that much i got, but i could never get it to work 💀 i always just messed the rotation up and went back to outlaw

[marble hemlock]

ye like

[lusty kraken]

unfortunately they are unable to balance multi-dotting

[marble hemlock]

imo bfa assa was like

[midnight mist]

Well what range is nimble

[pale spear]

now however, assas is soooo much easier

[marble hemlock]

in raids it was one of the easiest specs to play in the game, in m+ it was one of the hardest

[drifting cloud]

because seli might get bored and give you a warning shoot, youve typed like 5 dumb things in a row with nothing relevant inbetween

[midnight mist]

I don't really believe that i can be as low as bf without acro

[solar wyvern]

@spice surge not at my pc

[midnight mist]

Cause that was melee range

[royal lantern]

mate, 80% of terms we use are old stuff

Hell people still say "we 2 chested that key" when multiple chests in m+ existed for 1 patch

wow players love to reuse old terms forever

[midnight mist]

3 yard or smth

It was impossible to cleave anything

[valid leaf]

Seli who?

[pale spear]

think that should be okay ngl, i dont mind specs being better in some content then others. also just seems impossible to balance specs for both aoe and st

without breaking it

[marble hemlock]

and i personally really enjoyed that challenge and difficulty, to make assa viable and successful in m+, and i had a fair amount of success with it.

but i also knew that few people would be able to have similar results, so while i dont agree with the new direction of assa, its probably for the best cause it means more people play rogue/the spec as a result

and thats a good thing

[royal lantern]

it COULD be done if they would do more fine tuning, but blizz very often just does % aura buffs/nerfs and calls it a day

which sadly doesnt help there

[pale spear]

yeah its horrible they dont try and do more

but all the money is going to harrass women in the workplace unlucky

[valid leaf]

Careful what you say

[spice surge]

Fairly sure its just copy pasted bf, its absolutely not 10 yards like storm

[valid leaf]

Dont speak the truth its not welcome

[spice surge]

But without the. 5 range buff to bf

[midnight mist]

Well bf isn't 10 yard either tho

It's like 7/8

[midnight mist]

That was only a .5 or something range increase tho

To bring it back to old bf range

With acro I meana

[umbral sierra]

there is 13 classes 39 specs in this game. its impossible to have everyone of them "balanced"

[pale spear]

[midnight mist]

But sub never had trickster + acro or?

I don't remember

Did it

No it didn't

[royal lantern]

thats kinda disrespectfull when they did quiet some hard work against that and most of the responsible people got kicked out

like, you are blaming the victims there lol

[valid leaf]

It is tho

[lusty kraken]

sub was the black powder spam spec

[marble hemlock]

its not about perfect balance, its about not throwing a wrench into things everytime a patch comes around

[pale spear]

mostly memeing, and how am i blaming the victims?

xd

[marble hemlock]

but it feels like every new patch is just a lottery at this point

[drifting cloud]

sometimes the patch is the actual wrench ...

[marble hemlock]

if you play the good or the bad class

[umbral sierra]

valid

[amber brook]

Lets go gambling

[royal lantern]

well, most of them are the guys that work at blizz rn

[midnight mist]

There is balance and there is whatever abomination we have rn

[marble hemlock]

your class can barely change and suddenly you go from top third to bottm third

[midnight mist]

Enhance

[royal lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/xqc-gambling-gamble-gambler-gambling-addiction-gif-25801242

fatebound PoV

(delete fatebound)

[midnight mist]

Enhance litteraly upped every key by 2 levels no cap

[amber brook]

https://tenor.com/view/gamble-gambling-flipnote-raxdflipnote-gamblecore-gif-728096753915804447

[lusty kraken]

unholy dk in raid

[umbral sierra]

every game that has classes or talent features etc has people crying about balance issues

[marble hemlock]

"give us less variance in damage please" -> creates fatebound

[valid leaf]

More like 4

[royal lantern]

literally the same thing that happend with the aug release in DF

[pale spear]

i guess mb then. the main issue really is just the constant fucking layoffs happening

so stupid

[midnight mist]

It's funny tho cause , everyone knew shaman was op

Just not blizzard for some reason

[royal lantern]

yeha, layoffs happen and sucks that the corp world is so giga fucked in that regard

[midnight mist]

Like people knew enhance and elem saham was nuts on ptr

And it still released

It's weird

[umbral sierra]

then got reworked

[junior shore]

They don’t give a fuck

[midnight mist]

As in ptr was useless

[marble hemlock]

i mean, its why i try to not be too focused on the actual raw performance of classes or specs, and focus more on the fundamental design of them. some of them just end up slightly undertuned, others, to me, are just fundamentally borked and cant be fixed with an aura buff or other bandaid fixes. they just need a fundamental redesign, in my mind.

[lusty kraken]

I think it is to be expected at this point that reworked specs will be busted

[pale spear]

yeah this will always be so fucking funny to me

[junior shore]

Devs play shaman

[pale spear]

release stuff on ptr to test. people say "hey, its broken"

release anyway

[royal lantern]

people knew that Aug is a mistake that will forever create problems until its fully changed or deleted
and it still released

[marble hemlock]

i.e. old DK or shaman was just not fixable through aura buffs

[umbral sierra]

delete outlaw easy noone likes pirates anyways

[coral ibex]

woke up to see our uhdk quit over pi going to an enhance instead of uhdk

[marble hemlock]

or changing caps etc.

[coral ibex]

[midnight mist]

And it still create problems to thks day

[drifting cloud]

yeah enha has almost as many bugs as sub so youre guessing which ones get fixed and ele was just basically what happened to SP in s2

[marble hemlock]

they just sucked in every conceivable way

[spice surge]

Enhance is definitely not on the level of aug or fire mage in s2 df

[midnight mist]

No wae you said that just to trigger me right

[junior shore]

Excuse me

[solar wyvern]

Idk I can't fault them for trying something, the mistake was making only 1 supp spec and not 5

[pale spear]

that just feels like a small nonissue ngl xd

[coral ibex]

yea insane to gquit over that

[valid leaf]

You are excused

[marble hemlock]

not suck as in performance, or werent fun, but just that the way the specs were designed just didnt mesh with the more modern design of the game, or some of the design and game systems decisions they made

[midnight mist]

You mean it's better right

[umbral sierra]

hope he did

[oak tangle]

dh still only has 2 specs btw

[marble hemlock]

contrary to what you and your acolytes may have you believe, not everythings about you

[midnight mist]

[spice surge]

No its not even remotely close

[royal lantern]

i have a question

how would you make 5

like, how do you make different versions of "4 people get mainstat" that are different enough to make them different classes

[pale spear]

dh needs a fucking dps spec thats not filled with 20 different movement abilities in the rotation holy shit

[midnight mist]

What

[spice surge]

To being as good as those were

[lusty kraken]

zac has acolytes?

[grand atlas]

Hello guys

Should i use kingsbane off cd or wait until my deathmarks comes off cd?

[midnight mist]

Bro enhance does like

[valid leaf]

Get got zac
U fucking bozo

[drifting cloud]

well stats would say no because keys of the same level or -1 are being timed without enh

[pale spear]

its so annoying having to jump trough 20 abilities to set up your burst window

[midnight mist]

2 times the DPS as any other specs

[marble hemlock]

on CD. they should generally be synced every 2 minutes, since KB is 1min CD and deathmark 2min

[royal lantern]

• with 5 you would have more classes that would be "forced" to play it

just ask evokers that wanna play Dev but need to play Aug for most things lmao

[spice surge]

Thats just a lie, but ok

[midnight mist]

It's not

Well one sec

[oak tangle]

there is a conceivable option where the class is centred around mob debuffs rather than player buffs

[umbral sierra]

ff14 has bard and dancer as support classes and 2-3 other classes do similar things iirc

[royal lantern]

congratz, you now created a mandatory aug and a mandatory "debuff support" for raid comps

[royal lantern]

no it doessnt

bard and dancer are not even CLOSE to aug

[grand atlas]

Becouse i have big problems with my energy reg till my second kingbane, even if i pool energy

[royal lantern]

pls play ff14 first

dancer/bard are 90% normal dps

[umbral sierra]

u said "support specs" they are support

[oak tangle]

not explicitly true, but it does make a balance headache

[coral ibex]

dancer is close to aug in the dps part but not the survivability part

[royal lantern]

they do a 100% normal dps rotation and do ~10% less dmg then other dmg jobs, but buff 1 other guy by ~15%

like

its not comparable

[umbral sierra]

i do, i play dancer and ninja

[coral ibex]

DNC does far less than 10% less buddy

dancer does tank damage

[solar wyvern]

I'm not a game dev, but releasing mutliple of an archetype allows you to balance them against eachother rather than against 30 other dps specs

[royal lantern]

and that was still enough to literally kill all other ranged jobs until they nerfed the shit out of dancer

MCH lol

[marble hemlock]

i think for support specs to work, theyd have to first ensure that combat log hooks are actually good, so you can properly attribute ALL buffs to the originating spec/class/player

[umbral sierra]

facts

[pale spear]

this

[marble hemlock]

not just aug but like

[solar wyvern]

Its a fundamentally different class, just pigeonholed into dps

[marble hemlock]

PI too

[rotund idol]

In mists enha probably does 50% more dps than most specs

[marble hemlock]

or other buffs

[tall saffron]

yea

[lyric grail]

can anyone tell me whats going on and how to fix it?

[spice surge]

No

[valid leaf]

Whats confusing you here?

[marble hemlock]

seems like an unfortunate bug :<

[umbral sierra]

their raidlead has killed all of those bosses that week

[lyric grail]

i am the raidlead

i did not

[marble hemlock]

its himself, obviously

[coral ibex]

the difference is ff is easy to balance bc it’s all single target raiding. dancer isn’t a balance issue. aug is because wow is not balanced outside of patchwerk 5m

[valid leaf]

Its UI bug buddy

[umbral sierra]

their raid lead the owner of thatr group

[lyric grail]

people dont join now

[marble hemlock]

hes showing that the LFG shows all bosses killed, despite no bosses having been killed

[lyric grail]

its my group

[valid leaf]

Unlucky

Buy a boost

[umbral sierra]

rip

[marble hemlock]

its him

[marble hemlock]

do you know anybody that can set up the group for you?

[lyric grail]

noone online of my friends atm

[valid leaf]

thats fine bro

[wicked quartz]

i'm probably not the greatest person to ask but from what i've seen/personal experience ST is usually going to look for more haste if your crist/mast is already high

[valid leaf]

People will join

[midnight mist]

Im struggling a bit cause I'm on phone but

And that's against meta specs even

You probably mega destroy other average mfs

[valid leaf]

Why are you lying zac

[midnight mist]

I'm not lying wtf

[valid leaf]

Enha needs a buff

Its so shit

[marble hemlock]

may just have to wait for 1 or 2 people to actually read the status and join, and once you have a smol grp going, the rest will follow

[midnight mist]

Enhance is way too silly

Is eleem playing enhance or what

[valid leaf]

Probably

[spice surge]

Yeah and its significantly weaker than fire mage was in df s2

[pale spear]

bot shaman dps specs are way ahead of everyone rn no? or did they fix ele a bit?

[lyric grail]

yep will try ty

[spice surge]

Fire got -45% aura buffed

across that season

[valid leaf]

????????????!

[midnight mist]

I don't remember fire gapping people like that idk

[valid leaf]

Elem are you cooked?

[fast mural]

!weak aura

[midnight mist]

Sp maybe ?

Fire ?

I mean let me check again

[umbral sierra]

whats really hurting rn is rogues. rogues need a buff, especially assa. assa should have 20 yrd melee range

[midnight mist]

See you in 15 min

[pale spear]

real

[midnight mist]

Wcl is ass on mobile

[marble hemlock]

nah imo assa needs some nerfs for m+

but so do like

[hollow vessel]

Kingsbane does damage every 2 seconds, right?

[marble hemlock]

5 other specs

[marble hemlock]

yes

its not hasted

[umbral sierra]

im memeing about outlaws complaining about acro

[marble hemlock]

i mean that aint ever gonna stop, sadly

[midnight mist]

Are you sure it's S2 df

[marble hemlock]

and i kinda get it, uptime slave specs just arent fun when you get forced out of melee every couple of seconds

[umbral sierra]

i have dreams of it being hasted

[midnight mist]

There is no fire logs in S2 df

[hollow vessel]

So, I should Vanish with 7-6 sec left on Kingsbane, yes? Ideally 6 sec

[royal lantern]

you know, the thing is

they should nerf CT dmg cus CT is doing stupid dmg, and adjust Spatter

but the reality will probably just be "4% less dmg" and they call it a day

😦

[marble hemlock]

6, ye

[valid leaf]

They are cooked

[vital haven]

100% fire mage was part of the god comp in s2

[valid leaf]

S2 fire didnt exist

[midnight mist]

Hm

[marble hemlock]

remove spatter

[umbral sierra]

ct is uncapped aoe so makes sense why its slammign

[rotund idol]

Make sure not to look at post season logs

[valid leaf]

U took fire to give int to sp and aug

[marble hemlock]

the moment aug was a thing, fire+sp+aug was meta

[valid leaf]

Literal useless spec it was

[royal lantern]

if they actually do something else, yeha

[valid leaf]

Ur cooked

[hollow vessel]

Also, one more question
I always have a Darkest Night proc during the first Kingsbane, should I wait for Vanish to use it? or it doesn't matter?

[real granite]

spatter totally breaks sin identity

[vital haven]

well ye and also because it was the carry of that grp

[marble hemlock]

no, immediately get DN back up

[midnight mist]

I mean it was sp no??

Or I'm crazy