assassination

[fallen arch]

U play what’s meta or u play what’s fun

But dk would be considered more meta. Sin is sorta up there when it comes to m+

[latent mirage]

Question, i've noticed lately that my garrote is doing more damage than my ruptures (M+)
Is this normal or am i fumbling?

[nocturne quail]

Overall?

Probably fumble

I think they’re usually close tho

[tropic obsidian]

fair. was thinking 2 birds with one stone. the sin damage looks so fun but idk if dks actually out dmg them. regardless ty

[latent mirage]

Yeah
Lemme show you

[runic hinge]

Garrote does more overall for me

Spatter should be higher but it looks relatively fine if that’s like a 6

[humble cradle]

Is anyone running fatebound in 10+ keys?
I’m new and I feel like I’m struggling with keeping track of dsm and darkest night

[warm vortex]

Rlly tempted to craft helm now

[latent mirage]

It was a 4
People hate me and i can only push lower keys

[warm vortex]

even with the dagger

[nocturne quail]

I wouldn’t worry about it too much, I checked and rupture will usually be higher. But I’d imagine with lower target pulls/that die fast garrote will be closer

[latent mirage]

So in low keys garrote does more and in higher rupture should be doing more than garrote

Aight!

Thank you

[warm vortex]

But yea should i jsut go helm for now?
Because its got the bigger dps increase

[fickle siren]

Why dont u spend it to upgrade gear?

[nocturne quail]

That’s oversimplifying, I’m just feelcrafting that if pull dies fast and you have a bunch of improved garrotes out for 75% percent of the pull it will be higher.

[warm vortex]

I think it would be more worthwilse to do this atm?

i think

cause most of my gear is either 4/6 or 6/6 i thinik

[latent mirage]

Ahhhh okie okie, yeah that makes sense. Having garrote on more than 3 targets after improved garrote ends its super hard

[warm vortex]

Fug it im going head

[latent mirage]

GOHEAD

[warm vortex]

2% dps increase is a 2% dps increase

[latent mirage]

We like big numbers in this household

And what's better than big number? Even bigger number

[dusk fox]

whetstone still or bubbling ?

[pearl ingot]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue

[mellow copper]

how does shadowmeld work with rogue ? Does it count as stealth ?

[humble cradle]

Is there a site like Warcraft logs for mythic plus? And can I see the talent builds players are using there?

[novel star]

raider.io is best for m+ stuff

[keen spruce]

no but if you're in combat with non-boss encounters it will very momentarily drop combat and sometimes give you an opportunity to stealth

[storm marsh]

Raider io

[humble cradle]

Dope, thank you. And I can see talents used on there?

[mellow copper]

yes

[spice surge]

Keyword here being "sometimes" palec, it doesnt always work, even when you think it should

[prime hull]

Does this trinket beat Skardyn's? It seems quite good.

[storm marsh]

Yeah look up like top 10, choice a player and see their talents for the specific dungeons they are doing

[spice surge]

Its about the same

[azure coyote]

any reason not to macro tea and KB together?

[spice surge]

Theyre not used together ideally

So that would be a good reason

[azure coyote]

did something change?

[spice surge]

The first one can be used with kingsbane sure

But afterwards you use it during shiv when you need energy

[azure coyote]

so its on a 1 minute recharge so you cant use it every time with shiv....

but you use shiv everytime with kb

[warm vortex]

Got head im now 622

[cyan karma]

I think the mastery buff is 6s no? So you want that buff at the end of your kingsbane window… that’s how I understood it

[mellow copper]

are you though ? 😄

[spice surge]

In 10.2 yes

Now its literally just

Use tea during shiv when you need energy

[warm vortex]

622

IM

very tired

ive been doing dungeons all day haha

dealing with pugs

2.5K rating with mainly pugs does that to you

[cyan karma]

Yeah right, copy 🫡

[gaunt sable]

are we mastery > crit now ?

[azure coyote]

yes, sim your toon to get more accurate stat weights for you

[spice surge]

Do not sim stat weights

Just sim your items in top gear

[dusty skiff]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[coral ibex]

why does top gear say it requires at least two combinations

im not sure what that means or what im doing wrong

[warm vortex]

true stat is

speed

speed is bis stat

you get to move

[dawn heath]

decent session

[warm vortex]

F A S T

holy sshoot gratz!

i was so confused because im used to dd/mm/yy

was like jesus is it fucking christmas already XDE

[dawn heath]

😄

europppppe

[coral ibex]

oh ok i figured it out

[dawn heath]

starting to get a hang of the class

[dusty skiff]

!up

[prisma monolith]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[cyan karma]

How long have you been playing wow for out of interest??

[dawn heath]

wow? long time rogue? 3 weeks

wow uhm

18 years

💀

[cyan karma]

Ok wow 😅

I’m new to the game this season, on rouge… proper noob, but I’m starting to time 9s, just wanted to get a feel for where I’m at 🙂

[dusty skiff]

is this an addon?

[worldly sail]

thats raider.io

[dawn heath]

yeag website

[dawn heath]

most people don't do 13s

i have multiple 0.1% m+ titles on other classes so i know the game just getting used to a new class

[mellow copper]

Does it work enough to justify swap from dwarf to nelf for m+ ?

[blazing pumice]

no

[dawn heath]

i think dwarf is best

but nelf is a close second

i kinda felt it in my 13s today

on siege last boss if u get debuff with no cloak up

its very rough

[proven jasper]

Nelf overrated af

[dawn heath]

its very good on alot of classes

[spice surge]

Dwarf or orc imo

[dawn heath]

i think its good on rogue too

meld restealthing is strong

but dwarf is better

[proven jasper]

meh i never have really felt like i needed to be nelf for a restealth

[dawn heath]

what

if your tank chains a pack

[proven jasper]

its not really even that useful imo

[dawn heath]

u can get a free "vanish"

by melding

[mellow copper]

éxactly

[proven jasper]

Sure

But what does that do for sub

One ss?

Lmao

[dawn heath]

we're playing sin here

not sub

[mellow copper]

i was in arakara 14 like an hour ago and the tank just kept chaining so i was like im swapping 😄

thats why i asked 😄

[dawn heath]

i think u need dwarf to live keys

but obviously nelf is highest dps

in theory

[spice surge]

Its not obvious at all

[zinc frost]

Chain pulling isn’t a huge problem

[spice surge]

Fairly sure thats not even the case

[proven jasper]

???

[dull cloak]

nothing beats dwarf if you're pushing highest keys

[dawn heath]

i'm not even gonna bother replying this guy doesnt get it

[proven jasper]

I get it perfectly

How does nelf = highest dps

[dawn heath]

cause u get more restealths

its not complicated

its very simple actually

[mellow copper]

well, stealth is pretty much our aoe CD 😄

[dawn heath]

how u don't understand that is beyond me

[spice surge]

How many restealths that matter do you think you get per dungeon

[lean bay]

when do you play dashing scoundrel vs improved garrote for single target

[mellow copper]

fair question..

[dawn heath]

maybe like 2 extra its kinda hard to say depends on how the tank is pulling and a bunch of extra factors

also meld can be used to meld mechanics also

sometimes i do that

[proven jasper]

picking a dps racial will give you so much more damage

[dawn heath]

no

[proven jasper]

than meld lol

[dawn heath]

absolutely not

[proven jasper]

Okay lol

You know it all man

[dawn heath]

u already have % crit on night elf

[proven jasper]

Its literally been proven in here

[ionic fox]

Does feint DR Fiery Richochet 2nd boss of siege?

[dawn heath]

if u just get 1 extra restealths its better than all other racials for overall dps

[spice surge]

No

[dawn heath]

cause its already contributing

its not like the % crit does nothing

[proven jasper]

[dull cloak]

lol

[sudden swan]

1% crit isn't even significantly different than 2% crit damage at the crit values we have

[feral wasp]

Which race = biggest dps then

[dull cloak]

I bet it's mechagnomes

[sudden swan]

p sure its orc for assassination

[sudden swan]

for pure ST

ahh

[dawn heath]

its not like night elf is bad

[upper wraith]

Which ever one helps you do mechanics

[dawn heath]

u see? its alreayd mid tier

for dps

[proven jasper]

U said highest dps bro

[dawn heath]

without any restealths

[proven jasper]

So u lied

[dawn heath]

dude u are so dumb

im not even gonna argue with you

[sudden swan]

hes not talking about single target 5 minute sims brother

hes talking about running actual keys

[proven jasper]

Im not arguing but boldly claiming meld alone is more damage than a dps racial is kinda wack

[dawn heath]

racials are pretty insignificant in dps

[proven jasper]

Yes they are

[feral wasp]

Isnt utility a lot more important than the actual numbers

[dawn heath]

so between the highest and the loweest one here its 20k dps

between night elf and dwarf its 3k dps

[feral wasp]

Though with current numbers nelf is a significant dps increase in m+ or whatever situation youll need restralth even once

[proven jasper]

!restealth

[prisma monolith]

Explanation of why stealth benefits aren't as important as you might think:

• Garrote is roughly 10-12% of people's damage in a key, most of which is already empowered/cleaved
• Most energy spreading will come from Rupture to maintain scent of blood, not garrote
• Without a Trace (+1 vanish charge) only grants roughly 2 additional casts across a whole dungeon
• While Without a Trace can allow for better vanish timings, the difference in damage provided is at most replacing a non-stealth opener with a stealth opener (you aren't necessarily getting "added" casts, just "better" casts)
• You can argue that it "feels bad", but numerically there is very little ground to stand on, the dps simply isn't there.

[sudden swan]

aljan you're fighting a losing battle here bud. class discords are generally not the place people will have nuanced opinions about high keys.

[iron forum]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[sudden swan]

gl on pushing tho 13s already is sick

[spice surge]

nah we're all in agreement dwarf is the best for high keys

[proven jasper]

Dwarf is best for anything

Bc ur a dwarf

[feral wasp]

Nice try, +1 vanish charge and meld are the same thing right

[bleak spoke]

not even close

meld is so buggy

[proven jasper]

No lol

[spice surge]

But as usual we're turbo overvalueing how much damage you get for a restealth

[slow scroll]

I thought in the beginning that stealth opener was everything but it barely makes a difference honestly

[proven jasper]

^^^^^^^^^^

[dawn heath]

i agree dwarf is superior

[sudden swan]

not really because +1 vanish charge doesn't have the benefit of reducing the cooldown simultaneously like meld does

[dawn heath]

but night elf is def higher dps than dwarf

if you utilize shadowmeld

[slow scroll]

It just feels better that’s it imo

[dawn heath]

thing is though

[proven jasper]

It is literally just a feel thing

[dawn heath]

if u die once in a key where dwarf could save you, you are already losing time

[dull cloak]

definitely a feel thing

[bleak spoke]

https://i.imgur.com/g72dfwb.png the actual most important reason to stealth

[slow scroll]

Yup definitely. Feels bad to not have stealer opener but in the end it doesn’t really matter lol

[proven jasper]

Only valid reason i will accept

[slow scroll]

Stealth *

[proven jasper]

Is iron wire

[spice surge]

No, because not only are you not able to shadowmeld+stealth in boss combat, its also unreliable and often doesnt work on trash

[dawn heath]

yeah that too

i mean i've done that

meld in the middle of a pack

and re-garrote mobs

[bleak spoke]

it's particularly bad in stone vault

[dawn heath]

kinda hard to quantify the value of that

[bleak spoke]

like

[slow scroll]

It’s basically padding nothing else

[bleak spoke]

i personally play nelf but it really annoys me

well

if you're out of kicks

it's really

really not padding

[slow scroll]

Sure the silences are great I agree

[sudden swan]

meld is really nice for disjointing some mechanics as well

[bleak spoke]

yeh

[sudden swan]

although not as good defensively overall as dwarf

[bleak spoke]

notably the debuff on the last boss of siege

i would have prefered to be dwarf in terms of what i actually get

[sudden swan]

it gives you another out against the corrupt guys at the end of gb

[waxen oyster]

dwarf is just

consistently good

for rogue

[sudden swan]

and lets team have more uptime on the charge guys in siege

[slow scroll]

Dwarf is too fucking ugly, I’m not in denial thinking I’m best world so I rather play other races for my fantasy😂

[sudden swan]

but mostly dwarf lets you live more stuff that would kill you

[bleak spoke]

wat

[waxen oyster]

nelf is really nice too tbh

+aesthetic

[bleak spoke]

press something and stand against the wall and keep hitting

for horsemen it's a magic dmg hit btw

can cloak

if you're elu bait and switch evasion is 40% wall very nice

and you can't get shot to death or hooked

depending on pack

[sudden swan]

i mean meld just completely removes the mechanic

[bleak spoke]

i think siege has the best case for elu

yeh

[slow scroll]

Race changed my chars to dwarf in dragonflight because of tryhard but for sure it makes me less satisfied to play them lol

[bleak spoke]

^i'm this close to just playing blood elf again

cba

[feral mason]

we should all race change to dracthyr to exploit the bug on first boss of grim batol

[bleak spoke]

is there something with the circle drops

[feral mason]

yeah if you double jump as dh / evoker at the same time as the circle explodes

theres no puddle on the floor

[bleak spoke]

LOL

[feral mason]

not visual either just no area denial at all

[cyan karma]

Hey @dawn heath could you explain how you use shadowmeld? I thought it doesn’t work in combat… and you can’t move with it… I don’t understand? All this time I’ve been thinking it was pretty much usless to me… 😕

[feral mason]

not that it matters but its funny

[waxen oyster]

meld only works on trash

and you have to have 0 ticking damage incoming

[dawn heath]

you meld and press your stealth but u cannot be close to any mobs

to mostly useful when u chain packs

to get a restealth ff

[bleak spoke]

can restealth as your first global in meld if not in boss combat

[slow scroll]

I picked up rogue again and I went into a few keys with 600 ilvl and not once didn’t I top overall dmg, can’t do that with any other class or spec

[bleak spoke]

you can, in fact, be close to mobs

[dawn heath]

ye but its buggy

[bleak spoke]

it's how fast you go

[dawn heath]

it doesnt always work

[cyan karma]

Ok this huuuuge 😂

[bleak spoke]

very very buggy

[waxen oyster]

its not even buggy as much as

[cyan karma]

I’m such a fucking noob omg

[waxen oyster]

it works like old stealth

0 protection vs being knocked out

[bleak spoke]

as much as like the stuff that's supposed to take you out of stealth will 100% take you out

the combat drop on it is way way way way less powerful than van

[waxen oyster]

thats because vanish has protection

[bleak spoke]

vanishes twice

as well

[waxen oyster]

against being knocked out insta

unless its a hunter flare

[bleak spoke]

you get a drop when the vanish buff expires

[waxen oyster]

then s.o.l

[bleak spoke]

and a drop when you press it

[waxen oyster]

I’ve been tempted to change my dh nelf

since belf model too smol

imo

[bleak spoke]

ugly

[waxen oyster]

nelf looks better

than belf

[bleak spoke]

alliance scum etc

[dawn heath]

i'm a night elf enthusiast

thats why i play it rn

[thorn thorn]

Preach

[waxen oyster]

also warglaives sit

really weird on fem belf

[bleak spoke]

if you're like

not using some meme weapons on dh

what's the point

that being said legitimately like nelf is pretty good on melee in general if you don't have tricks it's like

at the very least the threat drop is pretty reliable even if the combat drop isn't

[waxen oyster]

seeing warriors go nelf

for aggro drop

[thorn thorn]

My dh used to have brass knuckles as the tmog, I found it strangely amusing that they were basically invisible during Meta

[waxen oyster]

big funny

[waxen oyster]

Yeah thats the thing

meta was clearly intended arround glaives

[waxen oyster]

yep based magetower skin enjoyer

i use the green ones mostly tbh

[dawn heath]

i have all the colors 😄

[waxen oyster]

Same

i mean they’re all kinda free except the rbg one

took a second

[waxen oyster]

they really missed making assa magetower 2 shades of blue

oh s1/2 elite

dont have that one

[dawn heath]

ya

i was dh main since legion

i just started playing rogue now cause havoc stinks

(for keys)

[waxen oyster]

i use s5 elite

[coral ibex]

i simmed a bunch of trinkets and my best combination is apparently skardyn/ovinax egg

fugma

[waxen oyster]

with green magetower

[dawn heath]

i like the xavius shoulder red slutmog

goes hard

[waxen oyster]

ughh

[bleak spoke]

I don’t think havoc stinks for keys but

[coral ibex]

no feet not a slutmog

[waxen oyster]

that mog is so overdone

[bleak spoke]

There’s lots of annoying stuff for sure

[dawn heath]

it is

[waxen oyster]

xav shoulders,legion chest blue

[dawn heath]

but i had it since EN

[coral ibex]

better

lmao

[waxen oyster]

i forget who popularized it

[bleak spoke]

Cute

[coral ibex]

prospector boot enjoyer

[waxen oyster]

yeah i got xav shoulders in nh

[dawn heath]

ye

they are nice

[waxen oyster]

since i was farming for mantle

[bleak spoke]

Fo free

[dawn heath]

it dropped from mythic

i stole it for transmog

LMAO

[waxen oyster]

i got mine from relinquished

[dawn heath]

i dont have many mogs for my rogue sadly

i was thinking about getting t3 for rogue but it looks kinda mid

[waxen oyster]

it looks better on dh imo

the mask with eyes

[dawn heath]

my rogue is jsut some random slutmog pieces

legit dk what to wear

[waxen oyster]

nerubar rogue set

is kinda insane

imo

[waxen oyster]

yeah hidden skin better

[dawn heath]

nerubar

[waxen oyster]

the current raid

personally i like the teal color version but the pvp base red is also nice

[sharp wadi]

too bad the pvp weapons look like doggy

[high phoenix]

what is our bis trinket for m+ next to skardyns

[dawn heath]

i am not about to try to learn rogue pvp fuck that

[sharp wadi]

heroic looks so much better than mythic for this tier

[cyan karma]

Sorry im still carrying on with this shadowmeld/ vanish tech… cause it’s groundbreaking to me lol… I’m wondering. Can you like, macro the 2 together so it’s like having a 2nd vanish?

[sharp wadi]

mythic legit looks like a nighthold trash mob

[dawn heath]

y u can macro them thats what i do

but its not really like vanish

/cast Shadowmeld(Racial)
/cast Stealth

but try this

use it in duengons

[waxen oyster]

heroic rogue tier+lfr antorus dh

works really well

[sinful elk]

Are you able to craft a 2nd dagger? Cant see unique on tooltip but raidbots isn't liking me trying to put another crafted dagger in

[cyan karma]

Tyty was about to ask 🙏🏻

[dawn heath]

u will find it bugging out if u are standing in the pack

i mostly use it when chaining combat betwee packs

[cyan karma]

This is so crazy to me because it’s been my main problem, especially when tanks chain pull or I loose DSM for some stupid reason

[waxen oyster]

meld basically works like oldschool vanish

if you take any damage

or move at all

it immediately breaks

[cyan karma]

So you don’t need vanish to be actually charged right?

[dawn heath]

no

[proven jasper]

no u dont need vanish

you meld->stealth

[waxen oyster]

honestly

[cyan karma]

Sorry that was dumb

[waxen oyster]

people should track when their combat drops more

[cyan karma]

How do you track that?

[proven jasper]

They should

[thorn wadi]

is the trinket real or am i being pranked?

[dawn heath]

i have done the duengon like 50-60 times across my 2 characters

i have it on m0

and on champ track

doesnt drop

[thorn wadi]

i done it 26 times and i havent seen it drop for anyone not just me

[keen elk]

Took me until my 56th gb key to see one drop (and luckily was mine lol)

[waxen oyster]

it might be pvp brain where i just instinctively press stealth

when i see leaving combat

[warm vortex]

Is MQM on the gcd

[waxen oyster]

its a channel

so yes?

[dawn heath]

this is my dhs runs

dont have it

[warm vortex]

Oh it isn’t instancast

That sucks :(

[waxen oyster]

nope its a channel like torch

[waxen oyster]

that you cant move during

[dawn heath]

or well i guess i do have it

if this counts

[warm vortex]

https://tenor.com/view/angry-cat-gif-25783770

[dawn heath]

had to get 4 traders in m0

[warm vortex]

How long is the cast

[waxen oyster]

dh logs i see everyone play contract

and mqm

or ritual knife

[dawn heath]

for raid ye

[warm vortex]

So for aoe is MqM and grace a goood call or should I get smth dog

*dif

[waxen oyster]

if you can get resets

mandate is good

[dawn heath]

i am a 606 skardyn enjoyer

[waxen oyster]

lmfao breh

rank 1 ulg was transmitter

[dawn heath]

i was rank 2 when i killed it last week 😄

[waxen oyster]

for a minute

[warm vortex]

Ok I’ll go for em
How long is mqm cast
And how easy is it to get it in the kill range, there a WA for it?

[dawn heath]

i was padding my ass off

[waxen oyster]

i guess rank 1 optimally you should degen meta on adds?

[dawn heath]

obviously

[waxen oyster]

like 1-2secs?

idk check mob hp

[dawn heath]

big pad

[waxen oyster]

it needs to die in your channel iirc

to reset mandate

that healing comp

what in tarnation

[dawn heath]

lfg pugs

[waxen oyster]

oh

was gonna say that or the random fotm alt run

[dawn heath]

i played unethical m+ build

i had 1.1million dps to the adds

[waxen oyster]

im a big fan of seeing alt run signups

and theres

4 frost dks

in a 14 man comp

[sharp wadi]

bro

[dawn heath]

havoc aoe burst is just nutty

[sharp wadi]

i chose dk as my main months before release

[waxen oyster]

its up there with fury warriors ye

[sharp wadi]

then all the tierlists and everything, frost dks everywhere

now I'm trying to transition over to rogue

[dawn heath]

why

frost dk is god tier

[sharp wadi]

just enjoy it more

im aware

and frost dk is just so saturated

[dawn heath]

ye fair

[waxen oyster]

i thought dks would fall off

with breath being meta now

[dawn heath]

assa rogue is very good in keys

[sharp wadi]

unironically do same damage on rogue as dk

yeah idk i melt on rogue

[dawn heath]

but its way more squishy

[waxen oyster]

rogue dies easier

well assa does

[sharp wadi]

that is very true

yes

[waxen oyster]

outlaw is borderline a tank

[sharp wadi]

frostdk i don't have to care about any mechanics

and negate every movement mechanic

nasty

heal myself significantly more than healers do

[dawn heath]

i'm kinda thinking about gearing some vers just to live keys not sure how much that will move the margin

having 0 vers is rough

also playing without aug most keys

[waxen oyster]

yeah sin is the squishiest rogue spec

probs why it has the biggest leeching poison

[sharp wadi]

having cloak and evasion with our hero talent is still

pretty okay

[waxen oyster]

minus you dont play the hero talent except higher keys

because long cloak gives free dps

[sharp wadi]

cause you can stand in shit or some other reason

[dawn heath]

bait and switch is pretty nice

[waxen oyster]

No because it enables a talent

that was removed in the beta

for fatal intent

[sharp wadi]

huh

[waxen oyster]

yes check logs

for flensing knives

taking long cloak also makes you enable that talent for some reason

[dawn heath]

kinda trying to gauge how well i did in my high keys

[sharp wadi]

https://tenor.com/view/the-universe-tim-and-eric-mind-blown-mind-blown-meme-mind-explosion-mind-explosion-meme-gif-18002878

[dawn heath]

just not sure how relevant m+ logs are

[waxen oyster]

its like

1% dam in a key

ig

if the game was working properly you’d play bait and switch in 95% of scenarios

[sharp wadi]

[fading patrol]

Hi where should we use tea in aoe one guide says at the same time of KB and the other one says during vanish

[slender shale]

3 charges

[fading patrol]

There not a precise moment to use it ?

Like always with KB or shiv

Since it’s a mastery buff

[slender shale]

just saying u have 3 charges

so you can have multiple specific moments

[coral ibex]

finally got crests for a 636 weapon

[slender shale]

like with KB and on ur vanish

for sure always with KB tho

[fading patrol]

Ah ok understand what u mean

[fading patrol]

do you use it with shiv too sometime?

[slender shale]

Not in aoe

shiv is doodoo in aoe

[fading patrol]

okok i was looking at the apl and its always use tea with shiv thats why i was wonderign

[slender shale]

(it only affects the dmg taken by the target, not the dmg done by your abilities) so it doesnt increase the amount of dmg done by ur spatter

[fading patrol]

on 5 target sim

[slender shale]

what talents?

[fading patrol]

CMQA27SZpS4XnmFfcXRqkppuwPjZmZGmxyMAAAAAAMLw2MAAAAAA022MzwDMzYMzMLz2YMYmZmZwMzsttMmBYzsMwAWCWGmADLA

[slender shale]

brotha

if Arterial Precision is taken (bottom left), then that makes sense

otherwise

[little moth]

ya know whats soooo dumb bosses can parry KB and put it on cd without taking the dot

sorry had to rant

[fading patrol]

yea its weird maybe apl is not min maxing

[balmy condor]

no

that's just when it uses tea in aoe

you can't use tea for energy in aoe since you always have energy

[proven jasper]

Apl is max minning actually

[balmy condor]

so it uses it for mastery

[fading patrol]

so we should use tea with shiv?

[slate crown]

Feel like I want to just swap to elusive blasphemite

[fading patrol]

in aoe

[slate crown]

the fuck am I using this piddly little crit dmg modifier for

gimme movement speed go fast

[balmy condor]

typically in dungeons its better to save tea for single target, but for overall blaster aoe yeah go for it

[charred tree]

Can you use evasion on Regicide on Princess?

[fading patrol]

i should keep one at all time For KB tho ?

[balmy condor]

has nothing to do with KB

we tea during shiv

regardless of kingsbane or not

[simple violet]

"we tea during shiv" why?

max the nature dmg?

[slate crown]

Shiv increases your nature damage.

It's as simple as

[simple violet]

gotcha

[slate crown]

And bleed if you have AP

[simple violet]

tea before or after shiv? does it matter?

[static glacier]

tea off gcd

[slate crown]

Just with it

Yeah

[simple violet]

k

[slate crown]

No, you shouldn't macro them together.

[static glacier]

if you have a choice of when to send one tea and you'd never be out of energy or overcap

you would pref to cover the end of kingsbane under shiv

[west crown]

Not sure if I’m misremembering but did I see somewhere in here that we FoK in 2 on deathstalker?

[tidal lily]

is there a go to plater profile to sort all these debuffs out

[static glacier]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[static glacier]

either of those plater groups work.

[tidal lily]

tyy

[strange python]

!ui

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[jade abyss]

!energy

[prisma monolith]

Running out of energy in single target is completely normal, intended design of Assassination. You want to be playing for the highest uptime on Envenom, and not blindly spamming away all your energy. Rapid Injection, Sanguine Blades, and Vicious Venoms all play into this gameplay.

• No, haste will not make this feel noticeably better.
• 10% haste only contributes to around 2 actions per minute
• You should be playing for envenom uptime in single target

[balmy condor]

when talented into thrown precision yes

[dusty crescent]

!wax

[prisma monolith]

Bubbling Wax can once again be applied to weapons of all levels
There might still be bugs and odd things happening to it that hasn't been tested yet, but it seems to be working based on initial testing

[pastel pine]

Are we still getting 12 seconds on garrote silence in the next patch? Or did they fix that? It sounded incredibly broken when that first popped up

[static glacier]

any logic regarding env vs rupture refresh on aoe with non-perrsistent adds?

[spice surge]

No that was never the case, they made improved garrote get +6 seconds if you spec subterfuge

(as well as master assassin)

[balmy condor]

that includes iron wire

[spice surge]

Well ye but not the silence itself

[balmy condor]

ye I guess

[pastel pine]

Ok so it is staying 6 seconds?

[spice surge]

No, its getting reduced to 5

[pure star]

Almost dead env still very alive rupture

[spice surge]

As is the damage reduction

[static glacier]

like on ovi i've been using env if the adds won't live beyond 2 envs since I can catch up on energy loss from spiders / worms dying with rupture

but it's difficult to know, things like DN / ds stacks etc are a factor too

[balmy condor]

basically should never be hitting spiders/worms

with rups

unless you hit them at the very start they're not alive long enough

and if you do hit them at the start you're not using CT/env

so it's just L

every time I've tried to rupture a spider I just felt like the biggest fucking idiot cause it dies right after

even triple spiders it's just losing aoe to do a very suspicious rupture snipe

like with dashing talented you'd need them to survive at minimum 12 seconds from the time of the rupture

just never happens

[static glacier]

my raid has multiple people on pure st who dont touch any adds

its wierd

[balmy condor]

in mythic?

probably won't get far

spiders and worms will rip you to shreds

[static glacier]

it should have died two raidnights ago

had multiple 8m pulls

adds are dying

[balmy condor]

with people not hitting adds

that's wild

[static glacier]

well you're talking 1-3 people

keeps changing

[balmy condor]

oh sure

[static glacier]

i think its going to be bm and 1 lock next raidnight

[balmy condor]

I was thinking much worse

[static glacier]

everyone full st gigachads xd

nah rest of us are smacking aoe, warr, me, dks and ret tend to be high

[brittle quail]

hey i have one question in m+ build do we shiv the last 7 s of kb ? or can we min max to 8 sec and just be sure shiv end after kb ?

[static glacier]

depends on 2 factors imo

is the mob going to live the entire kb with shiv / are you aoeing?

[brittle quail]

why is aoe matering ?

[balmy condor]

yeah that's fairly normal

[brittle quail]

first part you could even send shiv earlier sure but why does aoe is a factor ?

[static glacier]

shiv extra dmg doesn't affect adds through caustic UNLESS you talent AP

so its only a st gain

and if it makes ur target die before KB fully ticks you could be reducing ur overall dps

[brittle quail]

ho

i see i definitely was making that mistake

[arctic tusk]

dont think sniping the worms/adds for energy is good? @balmy condor

[balmy condor]

no

I don't think it's even remotely good

[static glacier]

in general if the kb target isn't high prio shiv can be unused on aoe

[brittle quail]

so dont send shiv ? or send it on another target in aoe when that happen ?

[coral ibex]

there are some dungeons where you can shiv to dispel

which is good

like in GB

you wanna shiv enforcers

[static glacier]

tbh i think it's not a consistent rule, moreso if ur giga low on energy it's fine to rrup 1 worm or spider you know lives, for example on the first set of breaks the worm closes to the entrance of the room always lives since it's far from the boss / adds

[balmy condor]

I mean yeah

if you know it lives more than 15 seconds

[static glacier]

or on the second part when we get our 3rd dm off there's a worm (for us it's cross) that is close to the cannister and almost always gets empowered and doesn't die

other than those i don't think its the play

[coral ibex]

!crafting

!craft

[prisma monolith]

Preferences currently are wrist/belt/dagger for embellishment depending on what you go for

Darkmoon Sigil Ascension (dagger) + Writhing Banding (wrist) is generally "the best" in raid, but has ramp time and is worse in m+
2x Dawnthread (wrist/belt) is generally the best in m+ and not far behind of Ascencion/Banding for raids. Equal in single target at 80% uptime

Craft a dagger if you're unlucky and don't get one and are down bad and crying about your pathetic little 580 main hand dagger. Put Ascencion on it
If you have a big dagger in your main hand already read the above and pick whatever you prefer

[static glacier]

esp if there's a lot of adds up, only when stuff has died and its like 2t etc up is it worth rupturing

before going back to boss

[balmy condor]

I don't think we have any worm that lasts that long

[rotund marsh]

garrote and rupture smart spread right?

[balmy condor]

15 seconds is 4 interrupts

[rotund marsh]

i dont have to target swap do i?

[balmy condor]

by the time you can get to a worm

[rotund marsh]

while in a pack

[balmy condor]

that will last another 4 interrupts

I mean

[static glacier]

ur comp isn't gigascuffed triple warlock

[balmy condor]

you're so fucked

[brittle quail]

ok that i knew but dont really know about other m+ where you can do that so what do you do when you just have shiv up and no dispel ? send it on another target if prio target isnt living?

[slate crown]

Yes smart spread, but it will always be applied to your target at least.

[balmy condor]

like by the time I'm off boss thinking about adds, we're on interrupt 3

I've never seen a worm go to the next interrupt 2

[novel star]

is that the number

for rupture being worth

[static glacier]

lucky, for us it's a coinflip if it happens or not on my worm

[balmy condor]

with dashing, yes

[novel star]

gah dam

[static glacier]

i swear i hate that i have to kick during dm while warr has no kicks

feels so shit

[novel star]

15 seconds is like

an hour

sniping just sucks or what

[balmy condor]

dashing makes rupture sniping real bad

[rotund marsh]

ive been testing and it isnt working on the dummies

[novel star]

that’s insane lol

[static glacier]

can be a lot mor eeven, if ur warlocks use empowered curse of tongues

[rotund marsh]

it just keeps refreshing the dot on the main target

[novel star]

it will do that

[static glacier]

worm cast is over 5s

it's lit

[novel star]

and add 2 smart ones

[slate crown]

Yes, it also always hits your target at least, as I said.

[rare horizon]

a question , when im bursting i want to spam energy with envenoms ?

[novel star]

!carnage

[prisma monolith]

Indiscriminate Carnage Targetting and Swapping
TLDRMouseovers/Target swapping is optimal on 6 target, or 8+ targets, but not necessarily required

• The 2 Bleeds spread by carnage are smart and will prioritize mobs without the bleed. If everything already has bleeds it'll apply randomly
• You as the character are still casting the bleed against your target like normal, this is why people will sometimes use mouseover macros or swap targets

Swapping targets is situationally better, but can be ignored if you're having difficulties with it. Take 5 mob aoe as an example, your first garrote cast will apply to 3 targets (your target + 2 more). Regardless of if you swap or not, your second cast of garrote will hit your target, and then apply 2 more garrotes, prioritizing the mobs that do not have garrote. In very large aoe pulls (12 or more), a standard opener (garrote-garrote-rupture-rupture-garrote-garrote) will only apply 9 garrotes (3+2+2+2) and 5 ruptures (3+2) if you do not swap, losing you 3 garrotes and a rupture.

It is technically worse, but the situations in which you lose bleeds aren't very common; the lost ruptures/garrotes don't contribute much to your already flooded energy, you don't get additional scent of blood stacks, etc. The loss is purely the extra damage from those bleeds.

[balmy condor]

yes

[novel star]

in shiv you mash envenom yes

i think shiv is the rule anyway, like even solo shivs in m+ st

[rare horizon]

and i want to avoid redoting during my cds?

[novel star]

not 100%

[rotund marsh]

when in a long fight and you dont have vanish how do you apply dots?

one by one? or ignore and focus on one target

[novel star]

one by one

[proven jasper]

You do it manually

the oldschool way

[novel star]

you cant really ignore dots

[rotund marsh]

does that happen often?

[novel star]

20% agi is insane energy is insane

[balmy condor]

you would refresh if they'd drop

[novel star]

depends on comp and key level but yes

[rotund marsh]

rip

[novel star]

the dot class has to apply dots i know

it’s a hard life

playing the game

[rotund marsh]

one by one is annoying tho

[novel star]

not really

[proven jasper]

[rotund marsh]

i mean aff is annoying

[proven jasper]

it really aint

[rotund marsh]

its the same thing

[balmy condor]

that's what you signed up for isn't it

[proven jasper]

You only need a couple out

[novel star]

feels pretty good actually to maintain the ruptures that give me infinite energy and 20% agility

if you don’t like maintenance

don’t pick a maintenance spec

lmao

[brittle quail]

in aoe its fok - rupt spam not so annoying

[rotund marsh]

fok?

[novel star]

fan of knives

[rotund marsh]

ok right

btw will we still never take double vanish

when the next patch comes out?

[balmy condor]

mortals probably still won't, no

[novel star]

depends how good subterfuge is

but probably not ya

[rotund marsh]

sounds like some nice bonuses for ass

[novel star]

new ER seems just as good as current ER

[brittle quail]

i'm watching zerocool play double vanish and it actually makes sense in m+ with some comp

[novel star]

extra iron wire is niche, extra carnage is fake

[static glacier]

you come to terms with shiv being used in aoe yet?

[novel star]

[brittle quail]

its a lot of extra cc on aoe looks pretty good

[rotund marsh]

passive now right?

[balmy condor]

idk what that means

[static glacier]

im 100% sure that supercharger shit is making shiv an aoe button too, since it basically replaces ER

[novel star]

ya just +2cp value to ur next finishers after shiv

no more rng

[rotund marsh]

pretty cool

[balmy condor]

I mean yeah

[rotund marsh]

nice change

[novel star]

well

u already press shiv in aoe no

just for the prio

[balmy condor]

yeah

[novel star]

ur not gonna send it earlier

just for er thing

i would assume

[balmy condor]

difference is just you send it for sure now

[novel star]

ya

i just mean like

early in opener it’s not replacing the er gcd lol

[brittle quail]

sometimes you really don't in aoe ?

rn i mean

[novel star]

ur just gonna get value from ur normal shivs

[rotund marsh]

imagine if there was a shiv build that allowed for aoe kingsbane

[balmy condor]

correct

[rotund marsh]

they should make a talent like that

[balmy condor]

it doesn't do anything for aoe

[novel star]

well shiv doesn’t increase aoe damage at all just prio

shiv debuff does not interact with spatter damage

[cinder grotto]

!up

[prisma monolith]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/304343434137960449/1283842520308256858/image.png

[novel star]

spatter is 40% of ur damage pre debuffs

being spread

[rotund marsh]

AP "makes the next kingsbane hit 4 more targets at 50% damage"

would be cool

[novel star]

and then the spatter dmg itself calculates debuffs i think

[balmy condor]

so just caustic

[novel star]

but not before

[balmy condor]

you invented a worse caustic

[brittle quail]

okok so just shiv if prio is needed otherwise its bad ? in aoe ofc

[rotund marsh]

or maybe 100% to 5 more targets

idk lol

i just like kingsbane

[balmy condor]

okay so you just invented caustic spatter but then cranked the number

[novel star]

i mean idk

shiv on the priority list in aoe is like

[rotund marsh]

but it would work around shiv, so like the people who were hit by shiv would also have kingsbane applied on them basically

[novel star]

weird cus it gives the exact same value as a st shiv

so whatever good st shiv is still a good shiv in aoe

[rotund marsh]

would make the shiv build pretty strong imo

[balmy condor]

okay

[novel star]

[balmy condor]

that's still literally just caustic

[brittle quail]

ok i get it thanks a lot

[novel star]

also yeah kingsbane is already a pretty huge % of our aoe

even though it’s not shown as kb on details

kingsbane is a crazy amount of spatter damage

like illegal damage

[rotund marsh]

makes sense

[balmy condor]

caustic spreads kingsbane damage

arterial would increase the caustic damage they take in aoe

the interaction you want already exists

[rotund marsh]

caustic was the best thing they did in a long time, it was made in s3 df right?

[balmy condor]

yeah

[novel star]

best is arguable

it’s strong but is it healthy

idk

[rotund marsh]

also am i crazy are is sudden demise the best thing ever

such a fun talent

[balmy condor]

it's whatever

[novel star]

sudden demise is p good

[balmy condor]

passive bleed % is strong

[rotund marsh]

if fatal intent was good the combo between them would be awesome

[balmy condor]

the execute is whatever

[brittle cloud]

It’s just what they’re doing for every class to give them aoe.

[brittle quail]

i mean i see as crackshot sure it strong but is it good for the spec idk, its the whole identity of the aoe rn

crackshot is the whole identity of the spec

[novel star]

tbf in lower keys the execute is juice as fuk

[brittle quail]

but capstone

[balmy condor]

yeh caustic is definitely unhealthy atm

but what can you do

[rotund marsh]

will this aoe build be changing with 11.0.5

[dusty crescent]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Rogue Collection
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater

[novel star]

idk we don’t have numbers on the talents

[balmy condor]

probably not

[rotund marsh]

more so the class tree seeing changes i assume

[novel star]

twist the knife rework is maybe good maybe not good

idk what we would drop for ttk is the problem

[rotund marsh]

if we take subterfuge im guessing master assassin would be used then?

[novel star]

talent is just in a shit spot

[brittle quail]

and another question tricks or blinds defense whats the rule for choosing which one to take?

[balmy condor]

master assassin in m+ would be a cursed timeline

[balmy condor]

never tricks cause that shit is a bait button

[novel star]

generally tricks is just a fake bad talent that doesn’t do anything

it can help with dogshit pug tanks i guess

[thorn thorn]

What should/would our aoe be like without it?

[novel star]

but you don’t like want it

blackjack actually does something

[balmy condor]

rupture/ct

[brittle quail]

all the 14 15 done with assa had tricks

and it seems useful

[novel star]

okay but top keys using it doesn’t mean it’s actually like good

[brittle quail]

they are helping a lot with making the packs

[novel star]

u can just read the talent and read blackjack and it’s obvious blackjack actually has an effect that means something and tricks doesn’t other than 2 gcds

[balmy condor]

if you've opened your damage report, rupture value is legit propped up by like 5 different things

[static glacier]

in what sense?

[rotund marsh]

i mean it would only be taken if you have subterfuge i would guess, but if you have subterfuge i would assume you would take double vanish

[balmy condor]

the damage on it is way undertuned

[novel star]

in insanely high keys maybe yeah but you can also take double vanish etc in insanely high keys

[rotund marsh]

so it wouldnt be too annoying to play around if i had to guess

[balmy condor]

too strong

[novel star]

u are not doing those keys, your party is not coordinating everything based on talents and shit

so it’s not worth trying to think about it the way they do really

tricks bad

[mystic osprey]

11.0.5 buffs how strong are they gonna be?

[novel star]

don’t know

[brittle quail]

i mean now that i have an actual guild with good player we might but i see your point thanks

[rotund marsh]

that twist the knife change looks cool

[balmy condor]

there's no buffs

[rotund marsh]

envonom buff stacking

[sullen mural]

Feint of gcd isnt a number but feels insanely good

[balmy condor]

just reworks to talents that we either didn't take, or take and do the same thing

[static glacier]

it doesn't impact the gameplay negatively thankfully. the way things are set up bleeds are worth for energy / scent stacks and CT is still worth it over an env even with caustic being good

[balmy condor]

I'd argue it does impact us negatively though

[thorn thorn]

It does seem a bit strong, but idk, I did like the idea of KB being able to contribute to AOE, love that ability

[novel star]

i mean sure but look how bad we are in st and how unbuffable it is without nerfing caustic

[static glacier]

elaborate

[thorn thorn]

Number could probably be dropped a bit

[balmy condor]

I mean just look at our tuning this tier

[brittle quail]

making mouseover almost mandatory cause basic tabbing is bad ?

[mystic osprey]

They don't know how to tune rogues it's hilarious

[balmy condor]

we're a spec with no aoe cooldown

[brittle quail]

• tuning is hard

[balmy condor]

legit everything we do

is single target

[tawdry crypt]

what do you mean

we have CT

[novel star]

our st power being heavily envenom/kb and all of that also being the main source of us being arguably overtuned in aoe because of spatter

[tawdry crypt]

[balmy condor]

cooldown

[novel star]

is like

[balmy condor]

read mfer

[tawdry crypt]

I can't

[novel star]

not good

[static glacier]

thing is caustic makes our st cds aoe

[rotund marsh]

it is kinda weird isnt it lol

[orchid cedar]

outlaw doesn't neither

nor sub

rogue as a whole

[balmy condor]

yes, and that's our whole identity

[rotund marsh]

has there ever been an aoe cd for assa?

[static glacier]

so we do have aoe cds, even if they're the worst version of cds you can have, debuffs on a target

[balmy condor]

we've gone from being a spec that has single target cooldowns as a decision in design

but we're aoe monsters

and single target meh

[sullen mural]

I like it

[balmy condor]

it's the inherent problem of blade flurry too

[rotund marsh]

idk i think the design of it being so funnel centric is cool

[static glacier]

it is a big change from sl and before where we used to be great st and aoe was a mixed bag

[rotund marsh]

you target one guy and the rest are blown up

[novel star]

i don’t like it i want to do good single target damage

[balmy condor]

you can't tune the single target of the spec effectively cause so much of it is tied to aoe

[novel star]

[thorn thorn]

True

[brittle quail]

thats a tuning issue no ?

[orchid cedar]

Mythic+ fault

[brittle quail]

x) already said it

[sullen mural]

Atleast we aint last

[static glacier]

thankfully they have tuning knobs since bleed dmg is independent of caustic for the most part

[orchid cedar]

that every class needs insane amounts of aoe

[sudden swan]

im actually impressed they turned the levers fairly effectively to buff our ST while negating the impact on aoe

[novel star]

now they should do it again

[balmy condor]

I mean yes, that's why they nerfed caustic in the last tuning pass, now do it more

[rotund marsh]

they could make talents that make your st good but dont work when theres more than 1 target

[novel star]

holy fucking based whispyr

[rotund marsh]

theres stuff like that in the game already right?

[brittle quail]

id take the same change again every day

[novel star]

synced

[orchid cedar]

tbh as long as the class is competitive and doesn't feel bad to play

[karmic crystal]

I figure this is true but just to double check - this means that if I am simming Hero droptimizer (fully upgraded 626) it is comparing it against my champion gear (fully upgraded but not to hero 626)

[orchid cedar]

it doesn't matter

[rotund marsh]

stuff like this is how they could buff assa ST without making the aoe unbalanced

[novel star]

except fatebound also has the issue of spatter being broken as shit

[balmy condor]

the way things are set up bleeds are worth for energy / scent stacks and CT is still worth it over an env even with caustic being good

This isn't even true most of the time except for like raw sustained aoe sims

[novel star]

you get insane coin damage on spatter

[rotund marsh]

not a fatebound thing, just how that perk works

[novel star]

[sullen mural]

This would work on like

1 boss

[novel star]

my point was even your example of a good talent is ruined by spatter

[rotund marsh]

im just saying they could make talents have a thing like that

[novel star]

spatter literally ruins everything

[rotund marsh]

where it only benefits you in st but doesnt allow caustic spatter to be broken

[balmy condor]

like in m+ right now there's basically no situation where you'd ever sit there and CT into rupture 5x and then decide to envenom

the pull is 45 seconds

not 45 hours

[static glacier]

we can agree ct is worth, heck it's worth on st too - your words not mine. as for rupture SoB deffo makes it worth rupturing

[sullen mural]

Unless u boost 2 dps spots

Then its 45 hours

[rotund marsh]

how does it work with spatter?

[balmy condor]

it doesn't

CT is good

[novel star]

it just does

[balmy condor]

but rupture is just objectively not strong atm

[novel star]

tails coins spatter

[balmy condor]

even with everything propping it up

[static glacier]

if it's not worth rupturing why are we rupturing in keys

[novel star]

same as DsM spatters

[sullen mural]

Energy

[static glacier]

you're confusing me here

[sullen mural]

And agil buff

[balmy condor]

that's cause you need to read what I am saying instead of trying to make it an absolute argument jfc

[static glacier]

rupture outside of IC is a bleak situation

[balmy condor]

you need to rupture for energy obviously

but outside of energy

rupture on its own is not strong enough

even with scent and sbs

[sullen mural]

I love rupturr sniping low health mobs

Gimme that energy

[proven jasper]

Sub rupture still hitting harder with like 0 rupture talents

[novel star]

[static glacier]

brew / their mastery is juiced

[balmy condor]

it's unfucking real

[sullen mural]

I actually never looked at my rupture dmg in st

[novel star]

ya sub spreading ruptures for rupture damage and us not doing that is insane

[sullen mural]

Should i open my logs or nah

[thorn thorn]

Rupture has felt very underwhelming, I figured it was just a quirk on leveling

[proven jasper]

I had an 800k tick and just sat there like HUH

[novel star]

not really it’s just bad

[thorn thorn]

Not spreading Rupture for damage feels..... wrong

[balmy condor]

rupture damage per cast is like barely 10% more

[novel star]

it is wrong

the bleed spec should be bleeding

[sullen mural]

We are poisoning sadly

[novel star]

[sullen mural]

Envenoming to be exact

[balmy condor]

somehow a controversial take

[novel star]

the mash all ur instant damage buttons spec

[thorn thorn]

Last time I played was mostly in DF S2, and a bit in S3 and I did like multi-dotting in aoe to an extent

[novel star]

loses in aoe to the bleed spec mashing instant damage