#assassination

1 messages · Page 1088 of 1

past forum
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While I would rather see it gone, I'm not crusading for its removal and I also respect that my opinion on the class inherently matters less than the people who have played/will play it for much longer than me

hexed frost
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rogue
Class fantasy is around stealth
Different specs get different damage amps from stealth/IC/Dance etc.

Muh remove stealth because I can't pre-plan or fell to a random rng Kazzak

thorn fjord
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Stealth is a pvp button

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😛

placid cobalt
versed mica
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Realz reading Typhus' comments, single handedly changing his mind to not change stealth

placid cobalt
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stealth as a damage amp is bad in modern day wow, thats why nobody plays rouge anymore competitively in keys

normal mist
placid cobalt
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well also but

normal mist
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There's no reason to bring a rogue

thorn fjord
placid cobalt
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primarily priest but

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again, not true

thorn fjord
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Rogue was meta 2 thirds of M+ during DF

haughty flicker
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i promise you stealth effecting damage has literally nothing to do with whether rogue is brought or not lmao

versed mica
placid cobalt
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stealth has to do with how it feels to play a class, and when my talent to spread dots requires my tank to play bad on purpose we have a problem

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but again, my 2 cents, if u love it thats ok

hexed frost
thorn fjord
haughty flicker
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and s4

thorn fjord
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God comp just skooted us out of the meta

haughty flicker
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/s3 idr

hexed frost
thorn fjord
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Comps changed up towards the end and rogue wasnt meta anymore... but we were still good

limber lion
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!stealth

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!restealth

prisma monolithBOT
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Explanation of why restealths aren't as important as you might think:

  • Garrote does roughly 14% of your damage overall in a key. This means from 100% improved garrote uptime to 0% improved garrote uptime, you would be losing 4.6% of your overall damage
  • You can add in some sanguine/rupture value from carnage, but chaining allows for higher uptime and smoother energy overall, eliminating a lot of ramp at the start of a pull
  • This is compounded by the fact that you simply do not lose that many restealths (chain heavy spiteful weeks are only about -30% on stealths)
  • You still have vanish which gives you plenty of options to get your stealth effects
  • This has been supported by logs and by simulations, for many years
limber lion
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Oh look

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A big paragraph why it doesn't matter

versed mica
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I think Telarian is talking about how it feels to play

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You have to admit that rogue is the least played class

limber lion
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The specs that is gonna see play, is the spec that does the most damage

versed mica
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Most people don't like playing rogue

limber lion
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Even if something feels like shit, it's gonna be played if it's good damage

thorn fjord
versed mica
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Yeah in the top 1% sure

limber lion
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No, literally everywhere

thorn fjord
limber lion
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That's how metas are formed

placid cobalt
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All i'm saying, it feels bad to not being able to optimize damage because doing so requires my tank to play suboptimally

thorn fjord
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krill issue

hexed frost
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Anyone remember the vampire chicken in shadowlands season 2?

3 min giga burst but tank damage otherwise...

People still played the shit out of balance that season

versed mica
limber lion
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Tank chainpulling will clear the dungeon fastet

placid cobalt
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precisely

thorn fjord
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But you can still play around that

placid cobalt
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obviously the play is to chainpull anyway and fuck rogue damage

thorn fjord
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You dont need stealth

placid cobalt
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so tell me any other class that has to play suboptimally like rogue

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there isn't

thorn fjord
prisma monolithBOT
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Explanation of why restealths aren't as important as you might think:

  • Garrote does roughly 14% of your damage overall in a key. This means from 100% improved garrote uptime to 0% improved garrote uptime, you would be losing 4.6% of your overall damage
  • You can add in some sanguine/rupture value from carnage, but chaining allows for higher uptime and smoother energy overall, eliminating a lot of ramp at the start of a pull
  • This is compounded by the fact that you simply do not lose that many restealths (chain heavy spiteful weeks are only about -30% on stealths)
  • You still have vanish which gives you plenty of options to get your stealth effects
  • This has been supported by logs and by simulations, for many years
limber lion
placid cobalt
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not to this extent

haughty flicker
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brother there was an entire paragraph posted about how chainpulling doesnt fuck rogue damage

thorn fjord
limber lion
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Literally my guy

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Read the command

placid cobalt
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sure but "it doesnt affect it that much" is not a good argument on why it should stay

hexed frost
limber lion
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You talk about feel and then go on to talk about rogue doing 0 damage without stealth

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Which one is it now

subtle kettle
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If you Wana play a rogue without stealth : play warrior and pretend your holding a dagger idfk

thorn fjord
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or play OL OMEGAKEKW

placid cobalt
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again, i am rerolling this xpac so i was just espressing an opinion

versed mica
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Outlaw is more reliant of restealths than sin is LMAO

limber lion
placid cobalt
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it doesnt really affect me personally anymore

thorn fjord
placid cobalt
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but i still care about the class and i'd like see it perform

limber lion
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And it does

hexed frost
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Just make vanish a 30 sec cd and forget about re-stealths nomf

placid cobalt
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which part of it is wrong?

limber lion
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On a constant basis

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It literally performs in almost every tier

haughty flicker
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sin is literally looking like one of the best specs in m+ atm

versed mica
haughty flicker
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(obviously subjective to change)

limber lion
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Again it's a numbers thing, not a stealth thing

thorn fjord
hexed frost
haughty flicker
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dont worry so did blizzard

limber lion
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If a spec is undertuned, doesn't matter if it has stealth or not, it's shit.

placid cobalt
thorn fjord
thorn fjord
limber lion
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If a spec is overtuned, doesn't matter if it has stealth or not, it will slap

thorn fjord
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All our dmg comes from KB and Env lol

haughty flicker
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it be like that

placid cobalt
limber lion
placid cobalt
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i said the fact that the mechanic is there for me is detrimental, regardless if it's 1% or 10% damage loss

thorn fjord
placid cobalt
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no worries

thorn fjord
placid cobalt
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like all the arguments in favour of stealth for damage are "it's not that bad" and "it's not that much damage" none of that is actually a reason why it's good to have it

limber lion
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Chainpulling is detrimental to many specs in the game, not judt stealth havers mind you

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OG Rune of Power mages

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Oh boy

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They sure got giga fucked

placid cobalt
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like for example, when u look at retri pala rework, they had several spell simply become AOE with no strings attached, and it became very strong in keys

limber lion
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Yeah, but again it's not tied to that much damage compared to say an Arcane Mage not being able to use a Barrage because the pack is too far

placid cobalt
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we got IC which has stealth requirement

limber lion
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But yeah I get it

velvet ridge
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Rip Spiteful

thorn fjord
placid cobalt
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again im not talking numbers i'm just saying how it feels conceptually

limber lion
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Yeye I know

thorn fjord
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its ok Cev dont even play the game

limber lion
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I think it feels fine, you can still restealth between packs with good positioning

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Unless tank chainpulls at 50% hp

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Every pack

placid cobalt
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you can, and you could go nelf or w/e else etcetera but still doesnt feel like fun gameplay to me

limber lion
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Like if it's 20%, it's an easy restealth everytime

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Just because the tank engages with a new pack, doesn't mean you have to too

placid cobalt
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using vanish for damage when it's really most fun to use it defensively or to skip mechanics, idk it just doesnt feel fun to me, of course is personal

limber lion
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But yeah doesn't work if the previous pack is very healthy obviously

limber lion
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Literally

thorn fjord
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If im not using vanish for a dps increase it generally just stays off CD for me personally

placid cobalt
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true true i know im just saying it wasnt that relevant for outlaw before for example

limber lion
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I mean I agree which is why it's great that it no longer is necessary for

limber lion
placid cobalt
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like in high keys in legion bfa and SL you'd hold vanish for boss mechanics and it was no issue whatsever, ofc not for sin

limber lion
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Pressing Vanish for Outlaw is the highest priority we have for Vanish on any spec

placid cobalt
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riught now yes

limber lion
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That shit stays on cooldown 24/7

placid cobalt
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with crackshot or whatever

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before it wasnt

limber lion
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Since BFA

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Or well since Legion

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In SL you used it to proc Count the Odds

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In Legion you used it with Master Assassin

placid cobalt
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sure, it always had damage, 100% agree but

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it wasnt a rotational button like now imho, like you could hold it and not completely rip damage if you needed

limber lion
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Sitting on Vanish was simply a misplay compared to current Vanish usage on Sin

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No

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You're wrong

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Outlaw gained MUCH more from Vanish than we do currently

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Vanish for us is a dead button in single target if you don't play Garrote talents

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And in AoE it only fastens the rotation slightly but doesn't really contribute as much ad you think

placid cobalt
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well cos now afaik it doesnt buff kings anymore or smthg? havent followed the beta that much tbh

limber lion
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Vanish has, in 10 years, never been a button so utilitarian than it is now

placid cobalt
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for assa maybe, but how u play outlaw without vanish man? its legit rotational button no?

limber lion
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It is and has always been

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But we're talking about restealthing as sin

placid cobalt
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true a bit off topic

limber lion
placid cobalt
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even though it could be argued that removing stealth from damage would make vanish a defenisve/utility button

limber lion
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Because TWW Sin is quite a bit different.

limber lion
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Except with Improved Garrote in Mythic+

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Or sorry IC

haughty flicker
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if whispyr has his way we wont even be using imp gar in st

limber lion
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Yeh

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Thus you have no reason to ever press Vanish in ST

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Legit no reason

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And in Mythic+ you gain so little, so it's better to save it for mechanics that matter

placid cobalt
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fair enough but i wass mostly concerned with keys, i have no issue watsoeve with raid or ST profile, it all works wonders there

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fair enough

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still not an argument as to why it's better to keep it then not, but i see your point

runic hinge
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Vanish is mostly an ic enabler for really bad chain pulls now

placid cobalt
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feels bad to play but it's not impactful enough to be a deal breaker, i get it

runic hinge
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Or to reset your deathstalkers mark

limber lion
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The reason why it's better to keep it than not is literally just thematics

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That's it

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I think it doesn't feel bad to play

placid cobalt
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yeah but if it hurts the gameplay idk

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subjective, i can promise you lots of people hate it, it feels so anachronistic

limber lion
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It forces you to think about your positioning, tank positioning, mob hp, current bleeds, cooldowns and so on

runic hinge
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I think assa is fun rn but that’s just me

limber lion
runic hinge
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Guess what I hate? Playing casters. Lots of people like that lol.

limber lion
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Not feels wise, just numbers wise

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But there they are wrong

placid cobalt
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mhh tbh since i rerolled i havent looked at numbers so i have no clue how much dmg u actually loose

limber lion
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Like I get the feels think if you wanna go oogabooga and hit mobs and not think about anything

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But Rogue ain't like that

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The point is to be stealthy and sussy bakas

limber lion
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Like not using a single stealth or vanish is less than 5% loss

placid cobalt
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but like i bet i'd have far more fun with an iteration where IC just read "your garrote and rupture hits 3 target"

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pog

limber lion
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Like just ramming it down like a fury warrior

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But yeah each to their own

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I prefer restealths and positioning and so on

placid cobalt
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like i don't think it would change the spec that much tbh

limber lion
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If tank chains too early, it is what it is doesn't mattet ct go next

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If tank chains late, we reapply bleeds and take a few steps back

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Get restealth and step back into action

placid cobalt
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yeah but every other class in the game legit doesnt give a shit what tank does, just do it's thing, and thats how it should be imho

limber lion
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I prefer that in and out of gameplay more personally

placid cobalt
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again it's preference i guess

limber lion
placid cobalt
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every class is differnet but dps shouldnt depend on tank to be able to play properly

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there is no good reasson or excuse for that

limber lion
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.....

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And

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It doesnt

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...

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Again back to dps

runic hinge
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You gotta pick a lane. Either it’s dps or feels

limber lion
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You talk about feels but always circlr back to dps

placid cobalt
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i mean dps class

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not dps

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like as a dps

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you shouldnt be constricted in your rotation by how the tank plays

limber lion
placid cobalt
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it's the best i can phrase it

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if i play warrior, or paladin, or whatever other class in the game

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the tank does whatever it wants, i count target and press one spell or the other, is that simple

limber lion
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There'a different difficulty and theme for a reason

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We're already homogenizing everything in the game

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Idk why everything has to be the same

placid cobalt
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yeah but difficulty without an inherent reward simply means the spec is not meta and nobody plays it

limber lion
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Everything is just oogabooga

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No thinking just smash

limber lion
placid cobalt
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cos competitively if you have extra difficulty you need to overcome just to be like everyone else, you might as well be everyone else tbh

limber lion
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Difficulty does not dictate meta

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Damage does

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Arcane mage is kinh because it slaps

placid cobalt
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ofc, but you're not getting extra damage for playing around the tank so

limber lion
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Or its shit becaude its undertuned

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Not because its hard

placid cobalt
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you are getting extra difficulty for nothing

spice surge
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For fun

limber lion
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Extra difficulty WHICH DOES NOT MATTER

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Again with the numbers

spice surge
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If you want an easy spec, then dont play a hard spec

limber lion
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Like you do MORE DAMAGE without stealth than other specs already

spice surge
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Hard specs arent inherently stronger

urban heart
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Someone has problem with the shiv and vanish glow effect on Notter kingsbane wa?

limber lion
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It doesn't matter if it's rewarding or not, if you already outperform everyone without stealth

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Doesn't matter if it's 0.1% gain to restealth or 50%

placid cobalt
limber lion
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If you do more dam, your class gets played

limber lion
placid cobalt
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overcontrived and complicated, get a pala and press divine storm and do more damage

limber lion
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Again

placid cobalt
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why bother?

limber lion
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1000000th times

spice surge
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Then dont bother

limber lion
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The numbers

spice surge
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then play ret

limber lion
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Literally

placid adder
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my wings

limber lion
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You yap about feels but ALWAYS go back to the numbers

hoary remnant
limber lion
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It's not the stealth that's the issue to you

runic hinge
limber lion
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It's the mumber

haughty flicker
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i wouldnt play ret if care number big high

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missed that boat

limber lion
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Like why even pretend to talk about the feel when you keep circling back to the damage every single time

haughty flicker
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ret going back to the past decade of mediocrity

limber lion
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Stealth or no stealth, DOES NOT MATTER

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What matters is overall tuning of the spec

versed mica
hoary remnant
limber lion
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Or are you not noticing the OG there

placid cobalt
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idk man, agree to disagree i guess

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if it doesnt matter then why it's there

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"oh because class fantasy"

limber lion
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No man

versed mica
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Deaf, I cannot hear the words on the screen

placid cobalt
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that means nothing to me

limber lion
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Exactly

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What matters to yoy

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Apparently

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Is the numbers

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Like you still wouldn't play the spec if it was undertuned

placid cobalt
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no, what matters to me is a fun and smooth experience, where the number come as a result of engaging gameplay

versed mica
placid cobalt
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i played rogue legit last 4 xpac so idk what u mean

versed mica
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Doesn't matter if getting thrown out of stealth often isn't that much of a hit, it still FEELS bad

limber lion
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Lol

versed mica
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And if that's enough to make someone not play a spec, that's a problem

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Maybe not a problem to YOU, but it's a problem

limber lion
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I agree with that

cobalt geyser
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Is Telarian smoking something ? wesmart

limber lion
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But him saying "Assa has been dead after rework because stealth ree" is just incorrect in every way

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It has been slapping very hard first of all

placid cobalt
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when did i say that?

limber lion
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And secondly it is not tied to stealth

haughty flicker
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multiple times

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lmao

placid cobalt
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assa has been dead in key since bfa 😄

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except 1-2 madman who make it works somehow

wraith pebble
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I'll let you guys in on a lil secret: the game sucks and pretty much always has, you're arguing about garbage

spice surge
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Assa was very good in s4

versed mica
spice surge
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Just not spriest, mage or aug

versed mica
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100%

shy pecan
limber lion
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Yeah and that's because of the stealth right

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Funnily enough the stealth mechanic in BFA was what made Assa good

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Together with Echoing Blades

placid cobalt
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no ceve stop

versed mica
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Echoing blades my beloved, I miss you

placid cobalt
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im not blaming it on stealth

limber lion
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You did earlier thoigh

placid cobalt
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ofc it's tuning, ofc there is godcomp and all, it's all multifaceted

limber lion
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Yeh

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There you go

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It's all down to tuning

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Good we agree

placid cobalt
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im saying, stealth for me is detrimental, cos it doesnt add anything to the spec, if it was gone, it would be better

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absolutely

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ofc if u keep stealth and buff assa 50% you play 3 assa, no questions about it

spice surge
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Well if stealth was gone the bleeds would do significantly less damage

placid cobalt
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thats not what im saying

cobalt geyser
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I mean If u gonna say shit about rogue who is keeping you to play it ? Adios my friend and it was good with you around

spice surge
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Since theyre balanced around not being applied all the time always to all targets

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Which would make it a completely different spec

waxen oyster
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I mean if you don't like stealth as a mechanic

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Why are you playing a class where thats the unique feature

placid cobalt
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it's not that i don't like stealth per se, i don't like it as a damage mechanics in Mythic +

limber lion
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Also casual players always gravitate toward the thing that people at the top do

placid cobalt
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but i guess im the minority here

waxen oyster
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it's barely a damage mechanic

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Or are we going into another restealth argument

limber lion
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Even if there's 5 good specs all performing similarly, 99% of the playerbase will play the first 3 because it's what the top dogs do

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Even if the other 2 specs have the exact same damage profile

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People just gravitate to what's the best

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And fits their playstyle

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And people going for r1 titles tend to prefer the best specs, because they want the easiest time getting the title

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It's still a grind

placid cobalt
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true, which is what my argument about difficulty was about bro

limber lion
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Doesn't mean that they couldn't do it as Assa or whatever else

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They just choose to do something else

waxen oyster
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Honestly sin wasnt good in m+ before s3 DF

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for much more than stealth

limber lion
placid cobalt
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i got 3x titles as rogue and 1 as aug, aug was a literal joke compared to rogue in every way

limber lion
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They see 80% of the player bade playing the same classes

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Why would they do something else

urban heart
waxen oyster
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Guy says aug was a literal joke

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in the season they were blatantly overtuned

limber lion
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!wa

prisma monolithBOT
placid cobalt
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like if you play for title you are not gonna touch a difficult spec unless you have to, as in unless it does so much more damage than the rest as to be mandatory

versed mica
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IDK why people are taking this in bad faith
"Well there are issues with the class when it comes to stealth, maybe we should fix or rework stealth"

"Uh if you don't like stealth and want it removed you should just leave"

????

placid cobalt
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cos if u play something easy you can focus on stops and other stuff better and the game gets naturally easier

waxen oyster
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I mean stealth is really a nonfactor to why rogue is good in keys

limber lion
waxen oyster
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or not good

versed mica
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Like can't we have a conversation about how it could be improved vs shutting people down?

limber lion
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Like Assa is not difficult

versed mica
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It's not

waxen oyster
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Stealth doesnt add more complexity to this class

placid cobalt
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not difficult but more nuanced than any other melee imho, not assa specifically but rogue

versed mica
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Doesn't mean we can't have a conversation on how a 20 year old mechanic could be improved

limber lion
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People choose to play the top 3 classes because everyone is playing them so ehy wouldn't they do that too

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Similar in PoE

waxen oyster
limber lion
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There's like 5 builds that 90% of the playerbase plays

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Hexblast, Power Siphon, Lightning Strike, Bleed, whateverelse

placid cobalt
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there is also the aspect of getting invited in keys

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if you play out of meta it's much harder

waxen oyster
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Which stealth has no impact on

limber lion
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They choose to play those builds because they are true and tested reliable builds

waxen oyster
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That's purely tuning

limber lion
cobalt geyser
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Play with friends I guess kekdog

waxen oyster
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Rogue number big

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rogue meta

limber lion
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That is 100% the biggest thing by far

waxen oyster
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rogue number not big

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rogue not meta

indigo epoch
#

😦

versed mica
# waxen oyster But nothing is flawed about stealth.

Yes there is.
It can be broken out of due to random bullshit and RNG

Making it increase damage makes rogue more difficult than most classes to level

We keep having multiple bugs with stealth and other stealth effects that aren't getting fixed

limber lion
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Like that's true difficulty right there

waxen oyster
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I mean

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The bugs are just bugs

versed mica
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Like you can't say there's NOTHING wrong with stealth

waxen oyster
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i don't think stealth itself is the problem.

versed mica
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There are issues, we've just lived with them for so long

placid cobalt
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i mean if you don't like stealth because of bugs i'd say u can rest easy cos eventually they get fixed

waxen oyster
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I've never had any random unstealths

versed mica
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Stealth as a game mechanic as it exists now, yes

limber lion
waxen oyster
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im not sure how people are managing

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to get knocked out of stealth so often

shy dust
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Having stealth to skip any mobs you don’t wanna kill

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Is great

limber lion
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Yeh

versed mica
limber lion
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And only doing what is needed for quest ovjectives

limber lion
runic hinge
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Which tree is everyone gonna unlock at 71?

limber lion
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The tree and skills and damage is absolute poopwater

spice surge
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Fairly sure you just get both of them

cobalt geyser
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Hellcaller drjayCreep

runic hinge
placid cobalt
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i mean that's how i'd see stealth as an utility, skip shit, use it for cc, shroud skips etc. plenty class fantasy there XD

limber lion
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Not having energy as Assa is absolutely terrible early on

versed mica
waxen oyster
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it doesnt contribute as much to damage as people pretend it does

limber lion
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But again, not stealth thing

limber lion
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It literally is not

waxen oyster
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massive healing gains

limber lion
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Yeah wow amazing

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Literally doesn't matter for leveling

versed mica
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Rogue can't survive big pulls and cannot solo elites

limber lion
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The issue people have with rogue is NEVER tied to stealth when leveling

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Literally

versed mica
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And vanish resets mobs

shy pecan
prisma monolithBOT
limber lion
limber lion
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It doesn't do damage

atomic cove
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does anyone know the best racial for m+ for assa?

limber lion
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Doesn't increase your damage either

versed mica
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For outlaw it's required now

limber lion
spice surge
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If you dont care about your looks

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But its not that big

versed mica
waxen oyster
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Nelf for looks

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No dwarf looks ass

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except in select mogs

spice surge
grand trail
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this channel went full hate last week ^_^

versed mica
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You can eat my bearded asshole

limber lion
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Mecjagnome bis

atomic cove
#

can Nightelfs ignore dmg with shadow meld or nah?

runic hinge
limber lion
versed mica
waxen oyster
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You can meld a targeted cast

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but it will probably retarget you

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or target someone else

limber lion
#

Yeh

waxen oyster
#

Generally speaking I would say we can tank most hits better than majority of classes

limber lion
#

Personally

waxen oyster
#

If it's singular big hit

limber lion
#

10 out of 10 times I would choose the race that looks the best

#

Fuck the racials

waxen oyster
#

Rogue is kind of poop against constant rot damage

normal mist
#

based Cev

waxen oyster
limber lion
#

Arcane Torrent used to be giga in Legion

cobalt geyser
#

That´s why I play as my baby worgen kekdog

limber lion
#

But with it gone, doesn't matter

haughty flicker
#

gib silence back

waxen oyster
#

I was belf before it was cool

#

then the m+ andies ruined it

shy pecan
#

Damn, you guys had been going on for that long? monkaS

limber lion
#

Hey noe, belf has always been cool

atomic cove
#

so Dwarf is only for R1 andys?

limber lion
#

I still remember creating my Belf Hunter in TBC

waxen oyster
versed mica
limber lion
waxen oyster
#

unironically

versed mica
#

Most classes have shorter CD defensives

limber lion
spice surge
cobalt geyser
#

Fuck dwarf tho embrace worgen u just need to take my hand doge

limber lion
waxen oyster
#

female human

limber lion
#

Good days

waxen oyster
#

male human is too brolic for rogue

#

imo

limber lion
#

True

haughty flicker
#

female human animations are garbage

radiant raven
#

Need the big muscles to stab better

versed mica
waxen oyster
#

female panda has goat animations

#

but then you're playing a panda

shy pecan
#

Hey

versed mica
#

Who's back does that LMAO

shy pecan
#

Pandas are great, wdym

spice surge
#

Male panda thats the way to go

runic hinge
waxen oyster
#

pandas make every belt a WWE wrestler one

haughty flicker
#

pandas would be great if textures didnt stretch so horribly on them

manic quartz
#

Id like to play the forest troll thingy from trailers, looks amazing🤔

limber lion
#

Unironically Vulpera bis animations

haughty flicker
#

and a bunch of mogs are just broken on panda

#

unlucky

spice surge
cobalt geyser
radiant raven
#

Vulpera also have the best /sleep in the game

runic hinge
shy pecan
waxen oyster
#

many things

versed mica
#

If I play any of the short races (except dwarf) I get other people of that race emoting at me

#

Fuck that shit

waxen oyster
#

I really wish

versed mica
#

Stay away from me

shy pecan
waxen oyster
#

they made dark iron dwarves a customization

#

not a different race

#

Same with maghar orcs

cobalt geyser
spice surge
#

I dont really care much about the look of my character, my goal with transmogs is just to make other people say my character looks ugly

versed mica
#

Kul tirans and dark irons have the least amount of customizations out of all races btw

waxen oyster
#

Yeah sorry

#

dracthyr has more customization

spice surge
#

And obviously i could go way overboard with the silly things, but i prefer just natty ugly transmog that looks like i tried real hard but i just suck at transmogging

waxen oyster
#

than every other race combined

#

i dont make the rules

cobalt geyser
#

Worgen is good there tho every helmet looks like shit on head OMEGAKEKW

normal mist
#

Worgen is good until they go furry form

shy pecan
haughty flicker
versed mica
waxen oyster
#

Worgen females have the voice of an 80 year old smoker.

spice surge
normal mist
#

Raychu

cobalt geyser
spice surge
shy pecan
worldly terrace
#

Hi everyone. Is it better if i pool energy and try to maintain Envenom buff uptime at all times (given i don't cap on energy), or do i have windows where i need to spam Envenom as much as i can?

versed mica
spice surge
shy pecan
spice surge
#

Guild paid for dwarf transfer for fyrakk

shy pecan
#

Oh.

versed mica
#

But still try to chain envenoms with tier set bonus

normal mist
prisma monolithBOT
#

Read About Pooling
Video
TLDR:```- Outside of Cooldowns, you want to wait until your envenom is in pandemic/around 1 second in order to proc tier. This is the core concept of "chaining", where you clip envenoms back to back

  • If it's getting uncomfortable to chain, or you have to let envenom drop, pool back up to around 80% energy, and then start another chain
  • Always wait to envenom, never wait to mutilate/ambush. You want to generate your combo points as soon as possible, and then evaluate whether you should pool or use a finisher
  • Without 4 piece, chaining envenoms has no benefit and you can try to be above 50% energy for sanguine
  • With 4 piece, the chain takes priority over sanguine and you would play around the tier, not sanguine```The reason we do this is to maximize uptimes and tier procs which is a more efficient energy use
indigo epoch
#

Without 4 piece, chaining envenoms has no benefit and you can try to be above 50% energy for sanguine

#

relevant part to me

#

in 7 days no set bonuses

#

no point in learning the other way now lol

spice surge
#

Heres some other mogs i have (for some reason the belt got broken

image.png image.png image.png
spice surge
iron valve
#

I dunno if that's still true, there is benefit to chaining evenoms with Rapid Injection now ignore me, pins are pins

haughty flicker
#

threads have pooling rules for hero talents ye

indigo epoch
#

wasnt aware hero talents affected pooling, my b, ill look it up, thanks folks

spice surge
#

@normal mist Can i get an official statement on some of these mogs

shy pecan
haughty flicker
#

not as good as mine

image.png
long island
#

hey

#

is there any race for assassination thats worth picking over anything else

#

or doesnt rly matter

haughty flicker
#

look at that picture and you tell me

raven night
#

tauren because it looks sick when u stab

languid tide
spice surge
shy pecan
#

It doesn't matter. But yes, Tauren because imagine being the largest race in the game and stealthing around without anyone noticing you 🙂

spice surge
#

Dwarf is nice to dispel stuff in m+, but not playing it is fine

#

Very dependant on what season it is how good it is

grand trail
#

it work on some stuff in new raid too

versed mica
haughty flicker
#

the nipple straps do give him a certain air of nobility

subtle tundra
#

i wish vulpera racial wasnt dogshit though id play it

raven night
versed mica
#

I'd be a dark iron if it weren't for the fact that stoneform is tied to damage for them

#

Fireblood (di stoneform) is 2 min CD so it syncs well with Deathmark

#

So I don't want to hold it for utility purposes

raven night
#

how many dungs

#

can u always have a dispel ready for ur 2mins

#

have a dispelable dot*

#

gotta be rare af

versed mica
#

Yeah it hardly ever happened

raven night
#

like what AD with those bolts?

versed mica
#

When I was di outlaw it was okayish because you didn't sync it with anything

raven night
#

the fire bolts gave a dot

lavish geyser
#

Is assa the slowest of the 3 specs?

haughty flicker
#

it do be slow

versed mica
raven night
#

xd tru

versed mica
#

Bc if you suck at outlaw you are going to be drained af

raven night
#

need

#

ar

#

uptime

versed mica
#

Real

lavish geyser
#

Im pretty good at outlaw, but when I started the ar drop was brutal and still is when its forced

#

Literally feels like lvl 20 gameplay lol

raven night
#

feels like gooooooooood ol combat

versed mica
#

I hate UHUH

#

Bring celerity back pls

raven night
#

what was the chance

#

to proc

#

or ig

#

what was good uptime

versed mica
#

Less than UHUH, but that's why I hate UHUH. The spec is tuned to have high uptime

raven night
#

i love it, its the dungeons that suck

versed mica
#

So when you don't have AR of if you get fucked by mechanics and lose it early, it's cringe

lavish geyser
#

Idk it just seems like outlaw is gutted, at least for m+. Well not gutter but not having that much fun. Due to acro loss. So was thinking about assa if outlaw becomes too unbearable

raven night
#

no acro actually feels like u got kidneyed irl

limber lion
#

Eyo

versed mica
raven night
#

all the wind taken out of u, reaching so hard

subtle tundra
versed mica
#

Sin is not slow in aoe ftr

lavish geyser
#

3rd boss on AV is brutal

versed mica
#

Tons of bleeds = energy overflow baby

raven night
#

how so, does the group always kill the target u put ghostly on xd

#

oh gross assa channel

versed mica
#

But it's harder to play in aoe imo

lavish geyser
versed mica
limber lion
#

Yeh stop terrorizing my channel

versed mica
limber lion
lavish geyser
#

Yea okay

raven night
#

bro they yapping

#

about kingsbane in outlaw

subtle tundra
#

ayo outlaws youll get banned i swear

raven night
#

tf

subtle tundra
#

go back to outlaw

lavish geyser
#

Im willing to go through alot of pain as outlaw. But if it just becomes too miserable then ill join assa I think 🙂

raven night
limber lion
#

Why would Assa be better

raven night
#

noob

limber lion
#

If Acro is the crutch

shy dust
versed mica
#

Sin is obvs better because no acro just means sin does bleed and poison damage while away from boss and outlaw does no damage

bronze pike
#

So I heard

raven night
#

bf positioning

#

is just

bronze pike
#

Meanwhile acro Andy no46261427 is considering maining fury :)

#

Which is hilarious

raven night
#

like u cant position perfectly to aoe everything all spread out as well

#

kinda the worst feeling abt it

obtuse robin
#

they know what the problem is

#

he just doesnt care

versed mica
#

AND it's a dot

#

AND fury doesn't suffer as much from downtime

haughty flicker
#

Fury has two big swords it must have longer range

bronze pike
raven night
#

not the same tho

#

acro is always centerd on the rogue

#

and i mean just the given that its an uptime spec

runic hinge
#

Just position better

#

Skill issue

raven night
#

hes right u know

paper hemlock
#

Hey guys I’m fairly new to Assa but do we spread rupture in Aoe or nah?

jaunty lagoon
#

ya

past forum
paper arch
#

how does it work

#

if lets say mob has 300k hp so his 150%hp will be 450 and i apply 7cp rupture which is 500k+ over time

#

the mob will die instantly?

wraith pebble
#

That's how I read it but I dunno

iron valve
#

if he has 1m max health, yes

paper arch
#

but its 150% remaining health

#

not maximal

iron valve
#

it only triggers if they're under 35%

runic hinge
paper arch
rancid crypt
#

so in s1, will we not be playing with doubble shiv anymore?

runic hinge
#

It’s just to save you some inefficiency if they die with bleeds still up

paper arch
#

ok

#

i get it

iron valve
# paper arch how does it work

to my understanding, the way it mechanically works is:

  • if they are under 35%, each time a bleed ticks
  • add up all remaining damage from rupture, garrote, crimson tempest, 1m of bone spike, (I assume also doomblade and internal bleeding)
  • if it's more than mob current HP * 1.5, deal it all out instantly in one instance labelled Sudden Demise
runic hinge
#

Not good to snipe mobs with at the end because you need to do more damage than they have health left

paper arch
#

if you would have 5 mobs u shoot crimson tempest at them and insta death of 5 mobs would be nice XD

balmy condor
#

if they're squishy enough that would be how that works

paper arch
#

i was just wondering if there is any possibility like u can have a mass touch of death like xd

balmy condor
#

I mean, yes

#

that's the talent

runic hinge
#

I’ve been doing some open world stuff and it kinda feels like that

old halo
paper arch
#

gege

#

nice

tall atlas
#

Is that rogue hero talent still an ambush buff

#

Or is it better now

fleet pagoda
#

deathstalker mark is still applied by ambush, yeah

vocal stone
#

Is there a way to track improved garrote in aoe?

Considering the fact thats the same debuff id (like normal garrote) you can do stuff like flag a casted garrote "improved" when you casted it while you had the Improved Garrote Buff.
But if you have Indiscrimiate Carnage it seems to be impossible.
Or maybe there is another better way to keep track

static glacier
#

It’s not like you’re going to overwrite it

#

We don’t have multiple ways of reapplying imp garotte anymore

dark token
#

With good coding

#

LE weakaura does this already I think

slate crown
#

Yup

slate crown
prisma monolithBOT
idle radish
#

WHO GOT a s ick nasty leveling build for me?

amber cobalt
#

It’s called a carry or a level boost

idle radish
#

for TWW

#

like imagine a sick build that fucks up spiders in TWW

amber cobalt
#

Haha. JK.

normal mist
idle radish
#

r u sure Royal

normal mist
#

I am

idle radish
#

i could see u being truthful rn

normal mist
#

I believe Whispyr's guide on Wowhead also has a leveling build, if you want to check

slate crown
runic hinge
#

Imma just run the hybrid build

slate crown
#

Royal speaks true.

brave depot
#

hi

idle radish
#

ty LE Lissonna Ensconced

normal mist
#

Hi

normal mist
idle radish
#

im focused up rn just played my first league game in months and i played yuumi

slate crown
#

Ngl if you have done any amount of end game content in season 4

#

with the gear you have you're going to cruise past mobs while leveling

#

build won't matter

#

just rock

runic hinge
normal mist
#

Yeah we'll maintain most s4 gear up to like lvl 76 or above

idle radish
#

master assassin > bone spike

normal mist
runic hinge
#

Wrong

pliant remnant
#

So wrong

normal mist
#

MA is dead

idle radish
#

but imagine critting the 3 seconds of rupture u refresh

#

imaigne

normal mist
#

30% isn't 100%

idle radish
#

it is if it crits everytime

#

let that sink in

versed mica
idle radish
#

sup yellow name

normal mist
static glacier
floral vale
#

Just looking through the recommended DS AOE opener there's on ER in any of them. Do we not use ER in big packs in beta?

fickle girder
#

!wa

prisma monolithBOT
unborn wharf
#

i have a stupid question related to the opener for st. would it be a loss to cast vanish when garrote is 10-11 seconds remaining and use garrote on the tail end of improved garrote buff? I'm just wondering for the purpose of bringing the next vanish and deathmark closer together with less delay, but obviously the guide says to just vanish garrote at 6 seconds remaining duration, and I don't have enough game knowledge to understand why we wouldnt vanish 5 seconds earlier.

image.png
shy pecan
prisma monolithBOT
#

Pandemic takes up to 30% of the duration of a applied dot/buff and adds it to your new applied one. The duration depends on the new instance.
Example: Garrote (18 sec) can be extended by up to 5.4 seconds from an existing instance.
Note: Pandemic applies to most but not all debuffs/buffs

shy pecan
#

It would be a loss in DPS in the since that you'd lose five seconds of improved garrote doing it at 10-11 seconds rather than waiting until the pandemic window to refresh it since your refresh would only take you up to the 23.4 seconds from 10-11

balmy condor
#

It’s just like why would you tbh

#

Those extra couple seconds won’t really change much

slate crown
#

Cev tested it, it didn't really matter

balmy condor
#

And now you gotta also keep track of the timer and make sure you’re not overcapping cp from it because you have 1 second left and you’re on 6cp with an envenom ready but now you have to garrote

#

It’s just kinda more headache for some hypothetical moving cooldowns closer together

shy pecan
balmy condor
#

Very rarely would those couple seconds ever matter

unborn wharf
#

Yeah ok that makes sense. It's not like we're squeezing an extra cast out of it or anything it speeds up further cooldowns by 5 seconds

slate crown
shy pecan
#

I mean, it's not a ton because it's like two ticks but thought it was still a loss

unborn wharf
#

its vanish wait 5 seconds and then garrote

balmy condor
unborn wharf
#

so pandemic isnt lost

#

right?

#

or do i not understand

balmy condor
#

But it’s about removing the prep timer

balmy condor
balmy condor
#

He’s just vanishing and then sitting on the imp gar timer

#

That’s totally fine

slate crown
#

Yeah it's not like it's bad for your damage, it's fine if you want to

#

it's an interesting idea and not a bad question to ask

#

Just happens that it isn't really a gain either, just kinda washes out

unborn wharf
#

but its literally just an additional failure point for nothing yeah?

shy pecan
#

Oh right, forgot that's longer now

unborn wharf
#

ok interesting

balmy condor
#

The thing we do for openers is we skip prep, like we don’t envenom before deathmark, or we skip the rupture or the slice and dice

#

Because that’ll shave off seconds going into your CDs

#

Doing that on like tindral was important to make sure your CDs lined up with mechanics

#

But the vanish timer itself wasn’t ever really an issue

#

You’re moving all your cooldowns up by accelerating, that’s kinda the idea

#

But just moving the vanish around is whatever

unborn wharf
#

I think you mentioned some really funky acceleration for larador ad timing or something?

#

like garrote rupture ambush?

balmy condor
#

Worst case scenario you have 2 ticks of a normal garrote at the start of your deathmark but it’s whatever

balmy condor
#

Adds on larodar spawn so fast that you have to hyper accelerate to get caustic up and cranking

#

It’s a total loss in boss damage

#

But you’re relying on the caustic damage to make up for it

#

It doesn’t feel like there’s any fights where it would be relevant in season 1 as far as I remember

#

It’s a very specific optimization for the situations where those 4-5 seconds are actually just too slow

#

Gnarlroot was another good example

#

If you didn’t accelerate on pull there and your raid was quick on roots your CDs wouldn’t be up

#

That sort of finnicky shit

#

Really depends on the encounter and the raid you’re playing with and what the goal is

unborn wharf
#

ok so what's the main priority list for accelerating for sin?
Is it like for st you first skip the envenom, then skip the rupture if you must, then would you skip anything further from there?

#

cause I see aoe has 3 different examples of acceleration for dungeons which make a lot of sense if packs are gonna die or live

balmy condor
#

Yeh first you skip the envenom, then you skip the rupture, then you skip the slice and dice or find a way to prepull slice and dice

unborn wharf
#

or additionally is this season in raid just not very likely going to have many acceleration openers be necessary

balmy condor
#

But usually you never need to go further than skipping envenom

balmy condor
#

Larodar was sort of the next level degeneracy in that regard

unborn wharf
#

ye i guess cutting envenom is cutting 2-3 gcds so thats usually enough

balmy condor
#

Bone spike change helps too

unborn wharf
#

ye how would we effectively skip rupture and get snd up if its so convenient for that?

#

what would it look like?

balmy condor
#

Cause you can gar snd er rup dm shiv kb

#

And if you’re lucky you’re at 5 already

#

So if you’re playing bone spike you just move the gcds around a little and it’s good enough

unborn wharf
#

or just an alternate

balmy condor
#

Yeah something like that

#

It’s not really an exact science

#

I have an image give me a sec

#

but bone spike kinda killed any reason to accelerate

#

cause the bone spike cp is basically saving a gcd automatically

#

like here right

#

you're not really getting a lot skipping the envenom

#

you can technically just skip the ER and the envenom

#

and save 2 seconds

#

but is that really gonna move the needle

unborn wharf
#

yeah good point

balmy condor
#

if you need caustic up super early you can mutilate instead of the ER and then go into DM

#

but that only saves 1 gcd

#

dropping the envenom before deathmark is an acceptable loss

#

but dropping rupture or snd and then having to spend time during deathmark and kingsbane to cast them

#

that's kind of a problem

unborn wharf
#

i was under the impression after ER we still need to make sure we're either 5+ cp and or are on an anima combo point for the envenom, thats the case for the opener you listed right

#

in case ur at like 2 cp after the ER

balmy condor
#

yeah but 2cp gets animacharged

#

or 3-4-5 I guess

#

just crit 5head

unborn wharf
#

ez

balmy condor
#

if I have to account for seal fate on every gcd I'd probably just toaster bath

#

like you can't just full blind ooga booga copy it and then slam envenoms at 2cp obviously

unborn wharf
#

put every single branching timeline on the opener! 🔔 🔔 🔔

balmy condor
#

but it's kinda just the idea

unborn wharf
#

just double checking ye ye

balmy condor
#

make a different opener image depending on crit or no crit

#

spread it like a family tree

#

a flowchart where each node is a different opener flowchart

#

there's also this for non-vicious venoms

#

that has fan of knives in it

#

this one is actually just 100% consistent

#

cause you have to consume the clear the witnesses before DM or it'll time out

unborn wharf
#

is it bad and stupid to mut/spend after the ER and fan of knives during DM to clear it

balmy condor
#

wdym

shy pecan
#

Don't think of the anima-charged points as "I need to hit these." Think of them as an added bonus. If that's what you're asking.

balmy condor
#

ER->fok lands you on 4+ guaranteed

#

er is 2, fok with clear is 2

#

so you're going to be on an animacharge or 5+

#

regardless of anything

#

but yeah like ed said you're not playing differently around animacharges

#

if you land on them you use them otherwise completely ignore

unborn wharf
#

Right ok gotcha. And if ER crit so we're into the 3rd blue combo point we would envenom > dm/shiv/kb > fok right

balmy condor
#

yeah

#

wait

#

no, not for the sanguine opener no

#

amb gar rup snd er env dm shiv kb fok

#

fok there is on the 10th gcd

#

clear the witnesses is a 10 second buff

#

it's getting PRETTY DICEY

#

like with no lag and all that

#

technically can fit it

#

if you're a bit slow

#

doomed

slate crown
#

are you telling me assa rogue requires 0 ping or dumpster dmg confirmed?

shy pecan
unborn wharf
# balmy condor amb gar rup snd er env dm shiv kb fok

is this like some blizzard buff tracker jank / am i just looking at it wrong - when I apply the marks it tells me the clear teh witneses buff is 11 seconds remaining and i usually have a comfy 2 seconds to land the fok/clear the witnesses if i follow that line

#

🤷‍♂️

Screenshot_2024-08-16_202025.png
balmy condor
unborn wharf
#

IDK WHATS HAPPENING

balmy condor
#

apparently it's a 12 second buff

#

what

#

since when

#

aight well

#

in that case yeah whatever

#

fits fine

#

what a strange duration to put on a buff

unborn wharf
#

ok cool but still fok if ur at 2 to build up to guaranteed anima range / 5+

balmy condor
#

yeah it's just more consistent to er->fok cause then you have no variation based on crits or whatever

#

makes 0 difference damage wise

#

like as long as you follow the logic of:

  1. apply bleeds/snd
  2. envenom before dm
  3. dm shiv kb
  4. spam envenom and refresh shiv when it drops
#

I really couldn't care what you do tbh

unborn wharf
#

yeah for sure i appreciate it man

#

at this point i was just like

#

clear the witnesses doesnt feel THAT tight

#

something felt incongruent

balmy condor
#

yeh idk when it went to 12

#

I distinctly remember testing it and being like oo

#

that's short

#

probably would also want to mut during kingsbane now that I think about it

#

just for the min max

#

or even better, just play vicious venoms and that way you don't have to fok ggwp

unborn wharf
#

oh is that the lore if u play vicious venoms u dont fok in st?

balmy condor
#

yeah

unborn wharf
#

nice

shy pecan
# balmy condor Idk what you’re thinking of

Kinda wanna go back to this. Makes sense with being able to vanish earlier and being able to sit on the improved garrote since it's six seconds instead of the three. But I thought it was considered a loss if refreshed early because you lost extra ticks if you were to do it at 11 instead of during the pandemic

slate crown
#

I counted the gcds and you can basically cast it with deathmark and you'll still have the buff up when garrote enters pandemic with 0 loss.

shy pecan
#

I think we might be talking about different things?

slate crown
#

Idn probably I'm operating at 20%

shy pecan
#

So I thought there was a difference between both a refresh of improved garrote having like 10 left vs. one with 5 seconds left

#

I get what you're saying about improved garrote's window and having the six seconds to refresh and it being in the pandemic window if that's what you're talking about?

slate crown
#

ya

shy pecan
#

The question I had was about doing it outside that pandemic window vs. during it

strange python
#

is there a macro for shadowmeld > stealth? seems super inconsistent

runic hinge
strange python
runic hinge
#

I am at work rn

runic hinge
rotund oak
#

if its outside the 6sec and its emp'd i dont think there is a reason to refresh fam

#

right mr @balmy condor sir?

#

a 101 gar refresh reminder plz

balmy condor
#

What

#

Are we still on this shit

#

Refresh your improved garrote within the last 5.4 seconds

#

Idc when you vanish or when you cast your new improved garrote

#

Just refresh it

#

This ain’t rocket science

sudden brook
#

How are we feeling in assassination land

safe sand
#

Hey All -- I am super new to Rogue and Assassination -- anything I can watch to get this explained to me? Seems like a rather dense spec

runic hinge
silk bane
nimble tartan
#

reading whispyrs take on the deathmark and that deathmark talent made me not wanna play it but that was in june maybe it changed

#

but it sounds so scuffed!

little rock
#

Hi all, do we mut to max cp or is rupture fine on 5/6? Is it a big deal to waste cb vs max rank rupture/envenom? Had a look on guides and couldn’t find it

past forum
silk bane
balmy condor
# safe sand Hey All -- I am super new to Rogue and Assassination -- anything I can watch to ...

I have a bunch of videos on youtube, for basics you can see some of the old videos I made for the basics. It's a bit old but still accurate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-CosgyZAhw&list=PLEA6xZzXyHDTaaoXTsHXj9HdgvK34u-Vj

YouTube
Whíspyr
Assassination Rogue - The Basics

Surely this video isn't outdated within a week and a half right?

Follow me on twitch :) https://www.twitch.tv/whispyrttv

Written Guides
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/guide/classes/rogue/assassination/overview-pve-dps
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue
Ravenholdt Discord: https://discord.com/invite/ravenholdt

Chapters:...

▶ Play video
silk bane
#

CB you macro into mut/fok and forget it. or you can manually apply it on an envenom after vanish in deathmark to fish for capstone - fatebound only

balmy condor
#

there's a couple of things a bit outdated

#

but it's close enough

silk bane
#

@balmy condor manual CB is on the envenom after DM vanish right? to fish for capstone?

balmy condor
#

probably just better to macro into envenom over mut/fok tbh but yeh just on cooldown hopefully

silk bane
balmy condor
#

if you inevitability the envenom after flipping your edge case coin

#

it doesn't flip shit

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just full bricks

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which is omega cursed

silk bane
#

what is the interaction of vanishing after DM? do you get double edge case after it?

#

oh nvm

#

i meant inev

balmy condor
#

if you vanish with edge case up, both flips land on their side

silk bane
#

so we do vanish that always then right?

balmy condor
#

no

silk bane
#

hmm really? thats surprising

#

Id think pushing edges would be good

balmy condor
#

it's not that great

#

you're getting 1 extra flip

#

the finisher would've already flipped one

#

edge case would've already flipped both

#

so instead of getting a total of 3 flips, you're getting 4

#

and you gotta shuffle around some timings to make that happen

silk bane
#

I guess yeah doesnt make a big difference

balmy condor
#

whenever I tried to line them up it was within margin

silk bane
#

thats unfortunate, woulda been more interesting if there was more skill expression involved

balmy condor
#

I mean it wouldn't even be skill expression

#

I'm pretty sure you could just macro vanish into deathmark at that point and sit on the imp gar timer until after the flip

#

would be pretty braindead

#

but regardless

#

the inevitability bug

#

the fact that it isn't flipping means you have to delay 1 more finisher

#

so deathmark, you get your edge flip

#

then you get another flip

#

that then gets you back a "previous flip" to match

#

and then you push cold blood

#

but I'm hoping the whole thing gets fixed cause holy cringe

silk bane
#

surely the bug gets fixed next week. surely

#

if not Im running NO ER VV deathstalker

#

stonks

#

if ER stays bugged, we take cb or what?

#

theres like nothing even to take i cant

balmy condor
#

if ER stays bugged you play 2leth base er

#

I guess you could play CB

#

I haven't pushed a slight APL tweak for CB yet but I think it was still losing even with the fix

silk bane
#

its great that we wont have to worry about that then!

#

because surely next week! surely

balmy condor
rotund oak
#

ER gets fixed im going pumpstalker

runic hinge
balmy condor
#

probably early next week

#

I'm on the backend

runic hinge
#

makes sense

#

ass master and all that

balmy condor
#

exactly

#

ass master maybe but not the rogue kind

rotund oak
willow rapids
#

Why not both?

balmy condor
#

cause the youtube comment said so

willow rapids
runic hinge
#

That youtube comment is giving me a lot of milage for laughs

prisma wyvern
#

!wa

prisma monolithBOT
prisma monolithBOT
balmy condor
#

There’s one in LE’a collection but I’m not entirely sure what you’re looking for

#

There’s not really anything to track for kingsbane

surreal yew
#

yo dumb question but what poisons to use nowadays?

#

haven't played rogue in a few xpacs so clueless

rotund oak
#

if u play dragon tempered blades