comes across as a little disingenuous
#assassination
flint marsh
its a value talent that currently doesnt provide enough value for how the spec is played
subtle kiln
It has more defensive value in keys
spice surge
Technically yes but not really
errant trail
i mean tbh
subtle kiln
ignoring mechanics can be way more significant than not
errant trail
vanish just helps refresh that juicy empowered garrote
spice surge
Idk garrote aint that juicy
royal lantern
vanish just helps refresh that juicy empowered garrote
please dont start that one man
subtle kiln
please dont start that one man
bUt mUh REEEEEstealths
errant trail
i just use it to refresh garrote
subtle kiln
pizza discussion was way more intellectual
errant trail
unless a big pack is coming and i need restealth
subtle kiln
or at least fresh
royal lantern
pineapple on pizza is allright and most people hating it do it because "lol, le funny internet memes"
there are way worse toppings
WAY WAY worse
worldly sail
i just ate homemade pizza with pineapple on it 
silk bane
Pineapple on pizza is good
subtle kiln
L Rizz
silk bane
-1000 aura
silk bane
balmy condor
its a value talent that currently doesnt provide enough value for how the spec i...
And you don’t think calling it a “value talent that doesn’t provide enough value for how the spec is played” is a bit disingenuous?
The whole point is that subterfuge is pointless cause we have 6 seconds baked into all our stuff, and that +1 vanish charge is equally pointless on a spec that casts on cooldown.
Yes it provides no value for how the spec is played, but what kind of argument is that? Deathmark/vendetta have been 2 min, vanish has been 2 min, since the dawn of time itself, the spec has played this way for at least a decade. It’s okay to just admit the talent is utterly pointless you don’t have to jump through weird hypothetical hoops to try and make it sound better
unkempt herald
Anyone ges randomly unstealth ? It happens so much, it's tilting.
silk bane
https://www.twitch.tv/method/clip/ColorfulCuteKeyboardOSsloth-c1jrBiFcA53dV5sa
i cant agree with him more
balmy condor
A sandwich with shit in it is a shit sandwich, it’s not a sandwich that doesn’t provide enough satisfaction for how my tastebuds work
proven jasper
Anyone ges randomly unstealth ? It happens so much, it's tilting.
Cloak
unkempt herald
cloak ?
spice surge
Anyone ges randomly unstealth ? It happens so much, it's tilting.
Its the sark cloak
Unequip it
balmy condor
Anyone ges randomly unstealth ? It happens so much, it's tilting.
!stealthbreak
prisma monolithBOT
Stealth can break from:
- Evoker legendary buff expiring and bouncing back to the Evoker.
- Ominous Chromatic Essence trinket on buff gain
- Voice of the Silent Star when wearing it yourself
- Misterweaver soothing mist when talented into Unison
- Blossom of Amirdrassil (trinket) initial hot dropping/spreading
- Vicious brand (Signet trinket self damage)
proven jasper
the sark cloak will legit take u out of stealth
errant trail
why do you think they got rid of shadow dance?
proven jasper
what tthe fuck
yeah shit is cursed
subtle kiln
lol welcome to rogue
silk bane
holy fuck this goes craaaaaazzyyy
errant trail
proven jasper
bro preaching
balmy condor
why do you think they got rid of shadow dance?
Cause it warped every spec around it in an unhealthy way and diluted a distinct thematic from subtlety
flint marsh
A sandwich with shit in it is a shit sandwich, it’s not a sandwich that doesn’t ...
well I think a lot of the capstones are just thoroughly shit, dunno why cold blood exists, echoing is whatever and vanish is whatever… I think it should be made better but I also don’t think its just the same as how you are using vanish today + 1 other use in the dungeon overall, it can allow you to slightly change how you use your vanishes especially if the spec moves away from a ST focus, which is possible in m+
balmy condor
Okay but again that’s all hypotheticals
subtle kiln
well I think a lot of the capstones are just thoroughly shit, dunno why cold blo...
Cold blood excellent on Sub. GTFO out
balmy condor
That’s not actually what’s happening
flint marsh
a lot of m+ is aoe and playing around your DM is less required
flint marsh
Cold blood excellent on Sub. GTFO out
we talkin assa 
spice surge
well I think a lot of the capstones are just thoroughly shit, dunno why cold blo...
Well do you think 1 extra use of vanish is better than 40 uses of echoing reprimand across a 30 min dungeon
subtle kiln
we talkin assa <:bla:1264689429424115795>
You talking general fucking class tree
flint marsh
in context of assa yeh
balmy condor
Like your argument for why it could possibly be anything other than 0 dps is entirely rooted in gameplay that doesn’t exist for assassination
Which is why this is confusing
flint marsh
Well do you think 1 extra use of vanish is better than 40 uses of echoing reprim...
well no if thats the comparison
subtle kiln
guess what all three are effected by it.
spice surge
well no if thats the comparison
Thats the choice youre making
Between +1 vanish charge and er
(also ER comes with 2% crit)
subtle kiln
rip apart the assa capstones
balmy condor
With deathstalker and coin buffs over the last couple weeks we’re more caustic focused in m+ than ever before
flint marsh
1 vanish charge isnt the same as 1 vanish use in entire dungeon
spice surge
It is
subtle kiln
Or how your spec tree has everything built in so subterfuge is near useless
spice surge
In most cases it is the same
flint marsh
‘most cases’
spice surge
Thats the point, and best case its 2 uses
subtle kiln
Can I get a 3? Loads of values at 3
flint marsh
are there even good logs out there atm for it
balmy condor
Yes
spice surge
Even if we are being excedingly generous and say its 3 casts
subtle kiln
3 nails and a cross and your are forgiven
flint marsh
who has em
balmy condor
Zero has been playing it exclusively
spice surge
3 casts of vanish VS 2 lethality points and 40 ER casts
balmy condor
He double vanishes the first pull and then on cooldown
flint marsh
his logs arent public as far as I can see
balmy condor
Then open your eyes
proven jasper
subtle kiln
austere sorrel
His eyes vanished x2
subtle kiln
Vanished off rogue
flint marsh
idk why being toxic im not even saying its good
it’s just competing against weak stuff
proven jasper
I wouldnt call er weak
slate crown
It's weak against weak and I'd argue the other stuff isn't really weak (Lethality + ER)
proven jasper
its not insane OP
silk bane
idk why being toxic im not even saying its good
its been a painpoint for whispyr, it kinda gets on his nerves. its not personal
subtle kiln
it’s general tree. It shouldn’t be strong. It should hold use in some form for all three specs
sorry subterfuge is useless due to your spec tree
silk bane
nah, general tree should be mostly for utility and defensives not this bs "heres a fuck ton of damage" as well as how your entire spec gets played (dust for sub) in your class tree
flint marsh
I picked random dung and looked at highest logs I could find and its 0.4 vanishes vs 0.5 so what like 3 uses or so in dung but also you get to time them not on cd
subtle kiln
we back at give assa everything and then some argument unironically
balmy condor
I’ve gone through literally dozens of these to try and estimate the value
There is none
flint marsh
so when you are flaming me for saying his logs aren’t there they actually arent
balmy condor
They were earlier in the season bite me bro
normal mist
They were
haughty flicker
flint marsh
I been checking every day of prepatch
proven jasper
normal mist
I been checking every day of prepatch
thats kinda weird ngl
balmy condor
I ain’t doing all this work just to have to google logs cause you want hypothetical situations that don’t exist
subtle kiln
I’m here waiting for the CB build to drop in pins
flint marsh
the first log I checked had more extra vanishes than the 1 you’re saying about though
so idk its hard to get good data sorry if it seems like im being a dick
subtle kiln
I don’t give a shit man
We know. You don’t like shit sandwiches.
balmy condor
It’s just restealth v3
proven jasper
The pain never ends
haughty flicker
I can’t believe whispyr is misleading us about the double vanish tech
Fortunately we have heroes ready to argue to the death about it
runic hinge
You can’t reason with these people. They see top logs playing with a team and using vanish for specific pulls and think it’s the meta
balmy condor
We’re on the verge of dropping improved garrote in single target cause bleed damage from gar and rup has literally never been worse
And I can’t even win that +1 vanish charge provides near 0 value
Pointless
Actually just pointless
Sisyphus work
spice surge
Im fairly sure we just do drop the imp garrote, the zoldyck and dashing interactions just aint in sims yet so cant be 100% sure
subtle kiln
Well 4 points
flint marsh
You can’t reason with these people. They see top logs playing with a team and us...
the top logs arent like that atm they are just kinda random as its prepatch and I think I’m being pretty reasonable about it don’t know why this got so divisive
runic hinge
Because at best it’s 4 wasted points for 1.5 vanishes in 30 fucking minutes
runic hinge
It feels awful and I’d rather play er
proven jasper
Because at best it’s 4 wasted points for 1.5 vanishes in 30 fucking minutes
Fucking huge bro
Worth
spice surge
the top logs arent like that atm they are just kinda random as its prepatch and ...
Youre like the 30th guy that shows up this week claiming that its good and then refusing to acknowledge that you might be wrong when 10 people tell you
flint marsh
except I said numerous times I’m not claiming its good
spice surge
You say that but then you do the opposite
half light
but it gets across that way
spice surge
flint marsh
well then I explained badly idk
haughty flicker
half light
i mean ive been in this server for less than 2 hours and already got that sub+vanish2 aren't worth it lol but as always, if you like to play X then go do it, it's your character
normal mist
Also, it would be kinda weird if even the wowhead guidewriter was intentionaly telling you to play a worse build than all the other ones that were simmed and tested
Oh and welcome to the server Jenga
flint marsh
is someone saying he is doing that
austere sorrel
Maybe his guides leave one little thing out that he will do himself, for the parses
proven jasper
normal mist
Maybe his guides leave one little thing out that he will do himself, for the par...
I can see whispyr do that
and then the youtube video "Heya!"
haughty flicker
I’d hate this discord too if I were him
flint marsh
its certainly harder to manage if people act like discussing another talent is discrediting his builds or something though
dunno why it has to be viewed that way
storm forum
Is whispyr quiting our win or lose condition?
normal mist
Its not you
in particular
its the 3412312 guys that "hey, i saw that guy that gets paid to play using double vanish and your guides dont have it, you suck"
balmy condor
dunno why it has to be viewed that way
Because the m+ community is full of apes and id much prefer they were dolphins instead
silk bane
flint marsh
I mean dolphins are the superior animal it is understandable
proven jasper
normal mist
Absolutely
haughty flicker
balmy condor
But for the last 7 years I’ve been fighting against restealths being the majority of your damage and assa being unplayable without vanish and without restealthing and without dance
spice spire
I mean dolphins are the superior animal it is understandable
Superiorly horny maybe
balmy condor
And nothing I do gets through
spice spire
We don’t talk about the NASA experiment enough
proven jasper
We don’t talk about the NASA experiment enough
We do not need to LMAO
balmy condor
But for some reason high end m+ players are still doing it
And still feeding this delusion of stealth being the utmost importance
And I’ve been so sick of it for so many years
runic hinge
It’s a shit talent and it costs 4 points!! Like wtf. Subterfuge does nothing. Heal on vanishing isn’t saving you either
normal mist
It’s a shit talent and it costs 4 points!! Like wtf. Subterfuge does nothing. He...
If you vanish, you're supposed to be safe already
proven jasper
We must all spread the word of whispyr about restealths
austere sorrel
!vanish
storm forum
!restealth
prisma monolithBOT
Explanation of why restealths aren't as important as you might think:
- Garrote does roughly 14% of your damage overall in a key. This means from 100% improved garrote uptime to 0% improved garrote uptime, you would be losing 4.6% of your overall damage
- You can add in some sanguine/rupture value from carnage, but chaining allows for higher uptime and smoother energy overall, eliminating a lot of ramp at the start of a pull
- This is compounded by the fact that you simply do not lose that many restealths (chain heavy spiteful weeks are only about -30% on stealths)
- You still have vanish which gives you plenty of options to get your stealth effects
- This has been supported by logs and by simulations, for many years
runic hinge
Moroes did
half light
i think it also makes sense thematically that the ones using restealths should be subtlety players lol
runic hinge
Damn he’s back. That reduced duration in PvP
spice spire
We do not need to LMAO
Don’t we tho
flint marsh
bonespiking has made restealths even more satisfying tbh even if numerically restealths arent like a massive dmg contributor
proven jasper
but its us VS the StReAmErS
A tier spec cuz of singular focus thats what max said he has to be right
normal mist
bonespiking has made restealths even more satisfying tbh even if numerically res...
why tho?
for the spread?
grim jay
i think it also makes sense thematically that the ones using restealths should b...
but it doesnt, stealth is a fundamental part of the class, not any spec. stealth is class fantasy, even if outlaw arguably didnt rely on it at all for some time. blizz even has that in the class text
balmy condor
Yeah there is a satisfying feeling for restealths
Which is what all of this is rooted in at the end of the day
Pressing 3x gar is almost a primal instinct
rare loom
New to rogue here, so I was told by my guilds rogue that the extra stealth charge talent was good
balmy condor
But the math doesn’t add up
half light
oh no
balmy condor
New to rogue here, so I was told by my guilds rogue that the extra stealth charg...
cocks shotgun what’s the name of your guilds rogue
proven jasper
3x garrote is a pants changing moment
balmy condor
I just wanna chat
storm forum
The new primal instinct is going to be vanish 3x rup
rare loom
Lol jk jk
flint marsh
no kb build is rooted in satisfaction dps numbers are our enemy!!
rare loom
My guild never has a rogue
proven jasper
Maybe they do he just still in stealth
haughty flicker
And the most humble
rare loom
We had one in season 3, was lowest dps. Was uncoachable
proven jasper
proven jasper
bro making us look bad
grim jay
My guild never has a rogue
our other rogue(s) usually ask me for help, so I'm at fault if they do bad
balmy condor
We had one in season 3, was lowest dps. Was uncoachable
So an m+ rogue then
spice spire
So an m+ rogue then
Was actually me
rare loom
No clue, been 6 seasons of no rogue, so thinking of rogue this time around
spice spire
storm forum
Since when was quake not green anymore?
balmy condor
Was actually me
This is why you got demoted
balmy condor
Since when was quake not green anymore?
Same time lisonna and co got green
grim jay
I’m colorblind
dw, the color is irrelevant, as long as its you 
spice spire
Amen
storm forum
Damn, the end of an era
spice spire
Don’t fucking ping me for a log review though
Or I’ll eat your ass raw
This is a threat
storm forum
Good thing I don't have any logs to review
proven jasper
? Sounds like a good time
grim jay
This is a threat
sounds like a promise
spice spire
?
runic hinge
Don’t fucking ping me for a log review though
subtle kiln
send all lfr logs to quake for auditing
balmy condor
DF was my 9/11
Well DF was my Vietnam
runic hinge
9/11 was my 9/11
storm forum
I just realized I think I didn't play for half of DF
half light
same
balmy condor
You didn’t miss much
subtle kiln
Well DF was my Vietnam
TWW is the exit strategy and shunned when troops come home arc for rogue.
storm forum
Like I was giga casual s1, s3 I took a pretty long break and s4 I haven't played at all.
spice spire
I just realized I think I didn't play for half of DF
I didn’t either.
And a mf still log reviewedz was my only purpose at that point
grim jay
DF was my 9/11
you are my 10/23
spice surge
Speaking of daggers whispyr, the embellishment agility dagger is still 2.6 speed so its fucking unusable as both assa and sub
spice spire
you are my 10/23
Ur birthday?
balmy condor
Speaking of daggers whispyr, the embellishment agility dagger is still 2.6 speed...
Wasn’t even in the game when I recorded that 
half light
is that dagger made of plumb or why is it so slow lmfao
grim jay
Ur birthday?
no. people claim god created the earth that day and you are my world
balmy condor
is that dagger made of plumb or why is it so slow lmfao
They used a sword template for it and just renamed it I think
spice surge
Ye i wasnt saying you should mention it, i just thought about it
balmy condor
Some spaghetti shit
subtle kiln
Some dev has a hardon for barman shanker speed.
storm forum
They made it for the new dwarves to eat, it's not meant to be used
flint marsh
bigger ambushes 
balmy condor
TWW is nothing but a failed copy paste for the most part
Like fatal intent for deathstalker
spice spire
no. people claim god created the earth that day and you are my world <:bla:12646...
Babe?
grim jay
bigger ambushes <:Surebud:1083827360815665235>
ye, hits harder if it pierces the upper body
flint marsh
aim for de head
balmy condor
Embellishments are copy pasted
subtle kiln
could have copypasta some better stuff
balmy condor
Enhancements are copy pasted
subtle kiln
copied off the class idiot
spice spire
could have copypasta some better stuff
I have some in the tank if you or blizzard need it
spice spire
kinda over the top, but also pretty smooth, admit it
Was good ngl
balmy condor
I have some in the tank if you or blizzard need it
Alexa, uwu this man
flint marsh
is fatal intent actually doing good dmg in raid to where you would want to crit it or nah
spice spire
Alexa, uwu this man
Amen
subtle kiln
I have some in the tank if you or blizzard need it
no glutens
balmy condor
is fatal intent actually doing good dmg in raid to where you would want to crit ...
It’s doing 0 damage right now because they fucked the damage calc on it
So dunno
flint marsh
awesome
balmy condor
It triggers and stuff
subtle kiln
balmy condor
Like it stacks and fires off
But there’s just no damage number behind it
So it triggers for 0
flint marsh
sounds like my playstyle
balmy condor
Also they added singular focus to mastery
half light
so always doing top dps for its spread
balmy condor
Which is the weirdest thing they could’ve done
Cause now it’s double dipping rupture damage
half light
what is singular focus?
balmy condor
Talent on deathstalker
proven jasper
Also they added singular focus to mastery
balmy condor
5% of damage dealt to unmarked target is dealt to marked target
spice spire
I love double dipping
balmy condor
The “funnel” talent
spice spire
Hell yeah
proven jasper
the A TIER TALENT
balmy condor
Now if they ever add caustic to it or sanguine
Which both don’t work
We’re like double if not triple dipping
It’s weirdga
flint marsh
has anyone looked at how 2mins line up in raid or will that be done closer to launch
half light
we're gonna run out of dips very quickly
balmy condor
Felt fine during testing
I tested every mythic and heroic boss and didn’t notice anything insanely cringe
Second to last boss has timed intermissions that line up with CDs
Last boss is untested obviously so that could be omega cringe
flint marsh
hopefully they also dont line up too well and assa eats another nerf on launch haha
storm forum
We're just going back to delaying second DM a little bit to line up with vanish right? No other rotational* changes?
brave gyro
Ok, finished the video, @Whispyr. (I watch vids at 2x speed, don't @ me)
Well, pretty much everything we talked about a few weeks ago. Absolutely it's a pain in the weapon slot and artifacts were a great solution.
Many other games use single weapon slot, even if it's "a pair of"
Good video, commented, liked for engagement, shared it here.
May the algorithm be with you
P.S. at 13:07 you say doo-doo
half light
that reminds me of the news commentator that says "dee-dee mega doo-doo"
brave gyro
runic hinge
We're just going back to delaying second DM a little bit to line up with vanish ...
Are you coming back
gusty mirage
Ok, finished the video, `@Whispyr`. (I watch vids at 2x speed, don't @ me)
Well...
did you giggle when he said doo doo
grim jay
Is this true?
that guy cant be sane
balmy condor
Ok, finished the video, `@Whispyr`. (I watch vids at 2x speed, don't @ me)
Well...
Doo-doo
grim jay
in case anyone was wondering
looks pretty good ngl
gusty mirage
I thought you were a monkE not car
brave gyro
did you giggle when he said doo doo
grim jay
better than 99% of the people back in school
normal mist
IN MORE IMPORTANT NEWS
gusty mirage
https://tenor.com/view/shrek-smirk-shrek-sus-shrek-smile-gif-4983018699107868283
what tmog related news do you have for us today Mr. Royal
normal mist
Besides breaking my gaming char as soon as i got home... i keep having problems with powersurges
gusty mirage
that's not tmog related wtf
static glacier
Last boss is untested obviously so that could be omega cringe
how cope is it to think they won't completely redesign fights from testing til launch
gusty mirage
that's just sad
earnest remnant
twins
gusty mirage
normal mist
I KNOW
grim jay
Besides breaking my gaming char as soon as i got home... i keep having problems ...
you know what solves your first issue?
normal mist
i stole my GF's one
grim jay
buy a decent office chair instead of those weak gaming chairs
gusty mirage
https://tenor.com/view/raccoon-roll-rolling-gif-9052103
there's a racoon mom guarding her babies in my backyard. I'm going to win her over with snacks and raise an army of racoons
balmy condor
how cope is it to think they won't completely redesign fights from testing til l...
They don’t have the manpower to change the fights and the fights got glowing reviews, I think redesigning the fights is the least of their worries atm
The raid is the only thing that works 
static glacier
gusty mirage
earnest remnant
there's a racoon mom guarding her babies in my backyard. I'm going to win her ov...
noble endeavour
gusty mirage
dw I'm sure the weekly chore will be fine as well
slim hamlet
What do you mean I saw YumyTV play dungeons in his latest video
Seemed completely fine and bugless
gusty mirage
noble endeavour
I'm going to train them to steal snacks for us
they get a finders fee of 90%
earnest remnant
balmy condor
Yeah delves are also very bugless
gusty mirage
I mean tbh as long as raid and one of the main features are fine
slim hamlet
and the last boss just killed itself
gusty mirage
they can kinda fix the rest of the garbagio
slim hamlet
No but like
gusty mirage
and they can always be like "lmao at least this isn't the maw"
gusty mirage
and the last boss just killed itself
honestly I'm kinda jealous
normal mist
what tmog related news do you have for us today Mr. Royal
I mean, The Tmog event is almost over for the july entries
slim hamlet
static glacier
I just don't get the fixation with ground swirlies around so many enemies
gusty mirage
I mean, The Tmog event is almost over for the july entries
it's august 2nd
normal mist
TAG JJ
earnest remnant
i follow the mayan calandar
gusty mirage
who's Maya
earnest remnant
my world ended 12 years ago
gusty mirage
and is her calendar nice
earnest remnant
maya nuh uh
proven jasper
Maya ha ha
earnest remnant
no?
earnest remnant
im writing rogue guide
normal mist
Good luck Stealthi
normal mist
but i have a deadline that ive been trying to ignore
me with life
subtle kiln
but i have a deadline that ive been trying to ignore
Just add Lost Ark bits to it. That will spice it up.
earnest remnant
dont think they'd like that
subtle kiln
I’m assuming they don’t actually look at it
earnest remnant
probably not in depth but they do go over it
to port it onto the website
i dont do that
subtle kiln
distract them with fries on pizza
earnest remnant
that just distract myself
grim jay
can we discuss how wonderful racoons are
unless they are on your attic
balmy condor
but i have a deadline that ive been trying to ignore
You’ve started?
haughty flicker
You mean their attic
balmy condor
How’s it feel having your theorycrafting done
subtle kiln
dont you feast on shadow priest nerfs
I’m already prepared to hear endless bitching of how bad they are with checks notes low haste
balmy condor
I’m too busy wondering how dashing and zoldyck changes will affect fok in single target
Meanwhile stealthi gets to write a guide
balmy condor
What a lucky guy
earnest remnant
How’s it feel having your theorycrafting done
we dont
im winging it
or a good bit of it is done
subtle kiln
Feelycraftin guide confirmed
earnest remnant
but alot of it might be unintended
like storm + bp in st
thats like the annoying part
you wanna write a good guide
but the class is just a mess
balmy condor
Feelcrafting guide is the way for tww
earnest remnant
so its just 
subtle kiln
Write the bare bones without the krangled gameplay shit.
earnest remnant
but i also wanna have it ready for expansion release
balmy condor
Also @brave gyro 2x speed is based
earnest remnant
but i also want it to be right u know
subtle kiln
add krangled post lanuch
earnest remnant
so im a stressed out mess
cuz i dont wanna push the deadline even though i prolly should
subtle kiln
put a disclaimer. Due to state of rogue development, this guide subject to change, a lot.
earnest remnant
yeh and then i get to rewrite it 4 times
very goodge
everytime they fix something
balmy condor
cuz i dont wanna push the deadline even though i prolly should
Knowing the wowhead deadline makes the method deadline very strange
subtle kiln
Have AI do it from Fuu
balmy condor
Method wants it a full 2 weeks earlier and idk exactly why
subtle kiln
did they have people sending in late?
earnest remnant
dont even think they are gonna put it up
grim jay
earlier than wowhead or earlier as in before tww
earnest remnant
until expansion launch anyway
balmy condor
earlier than wowhead or earlier as in before tww
Earlier than wowhead
earnest remnant
earlier than wowhead or earlier as in before tww
first deadline is on the 7th
balmy condor
All guides need to obviously be done a couple days before expac at minimum
The usual rule is that guides are due the Friday before a patch
And then editing over the weekend
grim jay
how much do they do with it afterwards? like checking the content etc
earnest remnant
what im gonna end up doing is just a very basic rotation section without all the cringe shit
just basic sub gameplay
with shadowdust
subtle kiln
90 sec cd spec let’s go
brave gyro
Also <@235112826606190592> 2x speed is based
Thank you! I need allies to convince the non-believers
balmy condor
Thank you! I need allies to convince the non-believers
I’m a 1.5x myself but sometimes it’s too fast
subtle kiln
I can’t learn dust
Send cds. Reset cds for flag/blades. Get 3 sectechs in. You’re learned.
slim hamlet
:3
balmy condor
-30% dps
subtle kiln
errant trail
@balmy condor
slim hamlet
@balmy condor
errant trail
i used to not get noticed but ever since i read your guide
some1 told me i need nerfs
balmy condor
Weird
errant trail
i know lol like
balmy condor
balmy condor
Glad the guide helped though
errant trail
big time
tbh my biggest struggle is sanguine
i need to find a sweet spot
there are times where i totally forget about itn
and there are times where i’m pooling 150 -180
and not dropping under
hushed sparrow
Do we have a google sheet that lists all the bugs currently?
brave gyro
I’m a 1.5x myself but sometimes it’s too fast
yeah, depends on vid
balmy condor
Do we have a google sheet that lists all the bugs currently?
Pins
hushed sparrow
Yeah it just white screen for me when i click
hushed sparrow
deep arch
yeah just says this for me 
slim hamlet
all my homies hate discord
balmy condor
It’s a bit out of date
So take it with a grain of salt
I’ve been out on vacation for 2 weeks
grim jay
Method says thank you for guide
gotta hide some bits and pieces in there
clever sapphire
I’ve been out on vacation for 2 weeks
just like blizzard when it comes to rogue no worries
balmy condor
I mean we’ve gotten consistent changes the last month
I think they needed a wake up call on deathstalker and stuff
After the insanely negative reviews rogue has gotten attention
Feels like they just got caught off guard
agile geode
Hope we still get stuff "fixed" till the release of the xp
Hoping Is not a sub exp again
hearty reef
hu whuspyr
clever sapphire
i hope recup gets fixed 
balmy condor
They’re like 2-3 fixes to deathstalker away from it being totally fine
grim jay
what?
balmy condor
hu whuspyr
Hello
clever sapphire
They’re like 2-3 fixes to deathstalker away from it being totally fine
so you mean making it so that if a mob goes immune or removes all its debuffs we get deathstalker buff?
balmy condor
Deathstalker is just things disappearing = rip mark
Yeah
If they do that and buff the duration on the mark/capstone
I think we’re totally okay
Mark probably doesn’t need duration
clever sapphire
ah and make it work with ER
balmy condor
But capstone is a bit tight sometimes
grim jay
Hoping Is not a sub exp again
so youre basically saying it was sub all the way through df
balmy condor
Yeah ER also would be nice
agile geode
Overall it was Better for all the exp ofc
I mean, specs were balanced but sub was a bit ahead
thorn lynx
@balmy condor I got some questions in regard to Fleetfooted and a certain dagger.
slim hamlet
Did anyone check if caustic spatter gets removed off target if you remove deadly poison during it on beta btw?
I feel like that could maybe be some jank where it doesn't notice it's your deadly poison then and just removes spatter
balmy condor
<@167090536602140682> I got some questions in regard to Fleetfooted and a certai...
I bet you do, second best rogue in stoic
thorn lynx
Woah woah woah, that's a bold claim.
balmy condor
Did anyone check if caustic spatter gets removed off target if you remove deadly...
I tried this yes
thorn lynx
Wait, you joining us?
balmy condor
It just times out
slim hamlet
Alright
balmy condor
Wait, you joining us?
No but there’s a better rogue
slim hamlet
Do we know the talents Kush used?
slim hamlet
You do it
thorn lynx
No but there’s a better rogue
There probably is. I play the spec wrong on purpose cuz my arthritis fingers can't keep up
grim jay
I kinda wanna buy beta just to sit and hit dummy and find out
I cant even motivate myself to do the ring on prepatch
and you wanna hit dummies
grim jay
I aint fucking doing that dogshit prepatch
same, I only want the ring
spice surge
They did
slim hamlet
Like today?
spice surge
Late yesterday ye
grim jay
Like today?
royal said he got it pretty fast
slim hamlet
Is it any better?
grim jay
barely any playing involved
haughty flicker
It’s still not a very impressive prepatch but it is significantly better than waiting an hour and a half to do anything
slim hamlet
barely any playing involved
That's what I like to hear
royal lantern
It’s still not a very impressive prepatch but it is significantly better than wa...
tbf
most prepatch events are not "impressive" overall
grim jay
tbf
most prepatch events are not "impressive" overall
only if you got a great rework that patch
royal lantern
like, BfA, WotLK and maybe Legion (and the legion one was mostly just a XP grind going crazy)
grim jay
grim jay
like, BfA, WotLK and maybe Legion (and the legion one was mostly just a XP grind...
legion prepatch was insane exsanguinate fun
slim hamlet
and I wasn't mad about it
haughty flicker
I use impressive in the loosest sense of the term
But it’s not bad now I would say
At least you can consistently be doing something
Or just afk at boss spawn if you want
grim jay
Or just afk at boss spawn if you want
yessir
static glacier
haughty flicker
I liked shadowlands prepatch, but that was more for thematic reasons than the actual gameplay being great
clever sapphire
At least you can consistently be doing something
you mean fly around to the spots that get cleared fast and just fly in the air? ye i would never do that, i always help the group out
raven egret
Man all pre patch have been slight variations of the same thing for several expansion, no idea how this is somehow news
haughty flicker
you mean fly around to the spots that get cleared fast and just fly in the air? ...
Ye I wouldn’t never just only do the bosses and ignore the other events
Couldn’t be me
raven egret
Oh that's me. I totally afk in the memory zones to sip tea.
clever sapphire
i just fly to the fast spots easy as that
raven egret
No shame
austere sorrel
I think it's a cute PP, with the deviant fish and other nostalgia
velvet ridge
I have good memories of duskwallow as a child. Prepatch does bring some of it back with going to old zones
austere sorrel
Bonking the lazy peon felt nice
And gave me old man thoughts like "THIS is when wow used to be GOOD"
raven egret
member the barrens?
spice spire
Makes me feel small
Damn real
raven egret
question is what lvl the heirloom trink goes to
thats... a weird question
they all go to 69 (70)
like all heirlooms do
haughty flicker
nice
slim hamlet
static glacier
thats... a weird question
what's wierd about it
and I meant w/e the new heirloom is, might be a ring
raven egret
what's wierd about it
All heirloom are the same Ilvl cap, have been for many many years. So yeah, weird question to wonder about
grim jay
All heirloom are the same Ilvl cap, have been for many many years. So yeah, weir...
werent the trinkets you could get in wod
going up further?
than the others
unless I remember it wrong
raven egret
Not anymore, they all been standardized when the level caps went up
static glacier
that was what made me ask
I remember we could use the demonbane heirlooms
when levelling
grim jay
Not anymore, they all been standardized when the level caps went up
ye but as they were released they got higher
until the next time they pushed heirlooms
raven egret
Not that it matters much the number of uses heirlooms have are.... Limited. But yeah that's not been a thing since forever ago. They all still follow level cap.
grim jay
rather redundant nowadays anyways
even if they made new prepatch heirlooms that level with you until new max on release
we are basically in full heirloom gear with mythic gear anyways
static glacier
503 ilvl atm
haughty flicker
xdd
static glacier
been doing some tmog runs and socialising with new guild on disc for wow related things
mainly still playing other games, other hobbies til tww
no need to get more gear, been invited to a few mythic runs but it feels pointless
haughty flicker
guild wasnt raiding s4 so i became a catgirl
and now guild is deadge so maybe catgirl forever
but i need prepatch gear for transmog so had to resub
raven egret
I mean heirlooms would change anything then, they too low Ilvl to compete with anything
normal mist
royal said he got it pretty fast
royal was right
grim jay
I mean heirlooms would change anything then, they too low Ilvl to compete with a...
they were released at the end of wod
and scaled up to legion max lv immediately
that way they kinda would be relevant
for what its worth
grim jay
royal was right
will see later, didnt start it yet
normal mist
Post buff, its fast, but you still need atleast 1 rotation per map
so, 3 hours total gameplay
grim jay
sounds like a job for my mage
normal mist
Actually unsure if you need to participate in events or not to get rewarded, since i always helped, but its fast nontheless, even if you just kill the final boss
slim hamlet
Sounds like a job for some random guy in lfg I can click follow on
balmy condor
guild wasnt raiding s4 so i became a catgirl
Pics or fake
haughty flicker
im sorry, not irl catgirl
balmy condor
Despair
haughty flicker
ignore the scruffy ass beard and hair i havent been to the barber in a while
just look at cat
normal mist
i have girl cat though
SO CUTE
austere sorrel
Smiley cat
haughty flicker
so fun issue ive just found with prepatch
the memories are capped at 20
and they drop in groups of 5 from the boss
static glacier
haughty flicker
so its going straight to my mail and i cant pick them up
static glacier
Practising stealth
slim hamlet
Don't you only need 20?
slim hamlet
Delete 2
haughty flicker
but it wont let me pick them up
slim hamlet
easy
slim hamlet
True
austere sorrel
My cat, showing extreme discipline
slim hamlet
make a ticket instead
haughty flicker
My cat, showing extreme discipline
long cat
slim hamlet
My cat, showing extreme discipline
That shit would never work with any of my animals
Also yea he hella long
royal lantern
static glacier
https://videos.pr0gramm.com/2024/08/02/4b256826ff687623.mp4
royal lantern
oh wait, not offtopic
pure mauve
Hi, does fatebound change anything in rotation?
raven egret
Hi, does fatebound change anything in rotation?
No
well I mean, make sure you use 5+ CPs
or them sweet delicious ER charged nodes
if I think of those as cookies, its not so bad
pure mauve
is ER mandatory?
raven egret
well theres nothing else better. Sooo it kinda wins by default
ER flips more coins, thats pretty much all there is to it
unborn wharf
yo just to double check without the s3/s4 4set we dont do envenom chains, we just maintain the envenom uptime roughly above 50% energy right?
errant trail
i go shrouded
cuz big rogue says so
SBS feels good but like shrouded just helps with ramp imo makes opener feel smooth
ask @balmy condor
balmy condor
What I do
runic hinge
yo just to double check without the s3/s4 4set we dont do envenom chains, we jus...
!pooling
prisma monolithBOT
Read About Pooling
Video
TLDR:```- Outside of Cooldowns, you want to wait until your envenom is in pandemic/around 1 second in order to proc tier. This is the core concept of "chaining", where you clip envenoms back to back
- If it's getting uncomfortable to chain, or you have to let envenom drop, pool back up to around 80% energy, and then start another chain
- Always wait to envenom, never wait to mutilate/ambush. You want to generate your combo points as soon as possible, and then evaluate whether you should pool or use a finisher
- Without 4 piece, chaining envenoms has no benefit and you can try to be above 50% energy for sanguine
- With 4 piece, the chain takes priority over sanguine and you would play around the tier, not sanguine```The reason we do this is to maximize uptimes and tier procs which is a more efficient energy use
oblique jackal
Ah gotcha so no SBS
balmy condor
yo just to double check without the s3/s4 4set we dont do envenom chains, we jus...
Without tier it’s kinda whatever
runic hinge
Now with the talent tho it becomes less definite and you can do whatever I think
balmy condor
Don’t have to be under 50, don’t have to be over
Rapid injection is okay but nothing crazy
unborn wharf
if ur at like 20% energy or something and envenom is about to go out r u going back to 50% or just kinda envenoming
unborn wharf
VIBEY
balmy condor
Is there an M+ build that takes SBS?
Yes open wowhead
errant trail
am i bad if i’m hanging around 150 and dipping occasionally?
i swear this is the hardest
balmy condor
No
rain mortar
sheeesh watching Ellesmere stream and the sin rogue in his beta M+ is clappppping
raven egret
errant trail
my sanguine hangs around 7-8% overall dmg
runic hinge
Sanguine eats too much energy
errant trail
i’m guessing that’s okay
balmy condor
That’s not really a metric to value
runic hinge
sheeesh watching Ellesmere stream and the sin rogue in his beta M+ is clapppppin...
Tell him to cut it out we don’t wanna get nerfed
Jk jk
rain mortar
Tell him to cut it out we don’t wanna get nerfed
hahah yeah i mean he's ripping well over 5 mill DPS on some pulls and even smallish pulls hes finishing at like 2.4 mil
balmy condor
Who’s he playing with
balmy condor
Maybe
rain mortar
yeah i mean its anectodal one stream, im just saying, he's making the dmg look big right now maybe its BS who knows
rain mortar
there is that sass i was looking for
rain mortar
and its at least 20% of why i love you
also due to your video today i've coined and extremely creative new phrase - MDGA
Made Dagger Great Again
Make*
rain mortar
All i know is im willing to die on the sword for daggers
errant trail
okay makes sense
i’m curious is envenoming first before your DM kingsbang window worth
for the 30% poison chance
balmy condor
Yes that’s why we do it
errant trail
okay so i was doing it right
balmy condor
Envenom deathmark shiv kb
errant trail
does it have to be 5 CP envenom
balmy condor
Yes
errant trail
hm how much dmg do you lose if you forget
balmy condor
Like 0.5%
young geyser
is sin also the best 1v1 class or only sub is?
young geyser
sry
errant trail
so like let’s say i apply empowered garrote right
i have 6 seconds to reapply if i want
do you ever double refreshed when you have 1 second left?
or is that a dps loss
slim hamlet
What does that even mean
You wanna press double garrote in stealth on 1 target or?
If so then no, that was only something we did when we had exsanguinate
raven egret
shiieet mages get custom responses to their feedback, yet again! I can't wait to support the main characters of TWW with my 3.6%
raven egret
3.6% Atrophic debuff, this is our purpose
slim hamlet
oh
grand trail
Kinda insane how one class get attention and other is forgotten
raven egret
Thats not exactly a good representation of the situation thought, is it. Blizz went :
errant trail
i worded it wrong
raven egret
then we gave feedback for months with 0 acknowledgement or, to use their words, 'refinement'
so feedback was given into the void for absolutely nothing. It wasn't about expectations out of nowhere, buf if you going to ask for our feedback it's reasonable to expect some form of communication in regards to that feedback
grand trail
Mages crying about fixing double dipping so blizzard revert bug fix cool
What other class have impact like that
balmy condor
It’s just as butt as any other racial
errant trail
What does that even mean
so like for instance i’ve put empowered garrote but i refresh it one time like i don’t let it just do a normal duration
cerulean nest
It’s just as butt as any other racial
the passives are p nice sounding though
runic hinge
i worded it wrong
You don’t press it again at the end of the 6 second window you wait until it’s in pandemic and then vanish garrote
oblique jackal
Is the hybrid still the one to play in +13 keys
errant trail
You don’t press it again at the end of the 6 second window you wait until it’s i...
ok there we gon
that’s what i meant ty
balmy condor
Is the hybrid still the one to play in +13 keys
Whichever you prefer
oblique jackal
Also Whisp.. I enjoyed the dagger video
balmy condor
Ty
inner valley
Also Whisp.. I enjoyed the dagger video
I was laying in bed when I played it and didn't realise how high my YT volume was and his HIYA startled the cat
raven egret
I mean you press it once
errant trail
true
raven egret
then just, keep on going on
errant trail
but why do we have it
raven egret
is it kinda stupid we have to press it once now? yeah, sure, but I mean, 1gcd
Maybe it'll get looked at when we get our inevitable updates in 11.1.. or was it 11.2
errant trail
think about it
slice n dice doesn’t feel cool to press at all
it’s just maintenance
atleast for me who’s new to the spec
runic hinge
I mean it’s a maintenance spec. Maintain dots. Maintain envenom. maintain your sanity while you pool
raven egret
RIght now its more of a 'it is what it is' vibe.
raven egret
I mean it’s a maintenance spec. Maintain dots. Maintain envenom. maintain your s...
and I mean, do we really "maintain" SND
I guess we could hard cast it regularly to actually get recuperator to work 
runic hinge
and I mean, do we really "maintain" SND <:bla:1264689429424115795>
You maintain it by casting envenom but I get what you mean
prisma monolithBOT
Read About Pooling
Video
TLDR:```- Outside of Cooldowns, you want to wait until your envenom is in pandemic/around 1 second in order to proc tier. This is the core concept of "chaining", where you clip envenoms back to back
- If it's getting uncomfortable to chain, or you have to let envenom drop, pool back up to around 80% energy, and then start another chain
- Always wait to envenom, never wait to mutilate/ambush. You want to generate your combo points as soon as possible, and then evaluate whether you should pool or use a finisher
- Without 4 piece, chaining envenoms has no benefit and you can try to be above 50% energy for sanguine
- With 4 piece, the chain takes priority over sanguine and you would play around the tier, not sanguine```The reason we do this is to maximize uptimes and tier procs which is a more efficient energy use
oblique jackal
I wish they would combine flying daggers and thrown precision
Two talents that shouldn't be seperate
balmy condor
Flying daggers in general is pointless with sanguine now
oblique jackal
exactly
balmy condor
At least with venom rush there was a bit of thought on the choice but it’s just unplayable now
long island
when i do the burst deathmark shiv kingsbane do i thistle tea after or in between shiv and kingsbane
spice surge
Thistle tea during shiv when you will not waste the energy
long island
what
indigo epoch
there any bugs with MA not working?
long island
so deathmark shiv tea kingsbane?
indigo epoch
some rogue in trade chat complaining about it, just curious
spice surge
If you are not wasting any of that energy yes
long island
i dont really understand the energy waste part ill keep it a g
spice surge
Tea gives 100 energy
You want it to give you 100 energy, and not 78 or whatever because you ended up at max energy
raven egret
i dont really understand the energy waste part ill keep it a g
tldr: <200 energy, tea. >=200 dont tea
balmy condor
there any bugs with MA not working?
Not to my knowledge
runic hinge
It only works for 3 seconds still. That ain’t a bug tho
slim hamlet
Another bug to the funny list tho
long island
how big of an issue is that i sometimes cast finishers at 5 combo instead of 6
balmy condor
You should be finishing on 5
errant trail
takes getting used too
also one thing that has seemed to been helping me is
i watch peoples CDs
if they pump and dump first packs
i wait to death mark the next one
and i’ll just kingsbang
i could be bad but i’m tired of shit dying when my KB not even done
glass relic
Holding ain't it chief
errant trail
if the keys is 10 or below it feels really shitty
dull kindle
Can we please have @balmy condor be the rogue class designer for Blizzard? I'm tired of this grandpa
errant trail
who’s the grandpa that designs rogue
dull kindle
slim hamlet
who’s the grandpa that designs rogue
My bad
slim hamlet
i could be bad but i’m tired of shit dying when my KB not even done
This happens until what was the old 22ish keys if you DM same target
If you're running low enough keys to where that happens, you're also running low enough keys to where Sudden Demise feels fucking gorgeous, so think about the good rather than the bad
runic hinge
Or just don’t think at all
haughty flicker
just play with shit players
runic hinge
raven egret
Hey thats why I respected these guys in everbloom;
they respected our time and our need to cleave
slim hamlet
BIS KB targets fr
There were a lot of good fellas in throne too
But yea also that, either you got good targets like that to KB or you've got such a heavy prio target that you aren't even mad that it dies fast unless you only care about overall
strange python
First time? 
strange python
What’s a silence that’s my vdh‘s job
slim hamlet
^ fact
strange python
I am only here to make number go up
slim hamlet
^ fact
spice surge
Mfers will talent into improved poisons over iron wire for 0.5% dps but then still take a second vanish charge
slim hamlet
strange python
Eleem you don’t understand
This guy has more io he’s right
Why would anyone listen to you guys
slim hamlet
I mean that is a factual statement
strange python
shy pecan
Listen to Elmo
slim hamlet
Who the fuck is Elmo
strange python
I am being sarcastic
spice surge
True, you should consider smoking 4 packs of cigarettes each day too
slim hamlet
spice surge
Who the fuck is Elmo
Elmo is me
slim hamlet
Hello Elmo
spice surge
strange python
True, you should consider smoking 4 packs of cigarettes each day too
If I wanna be as good as him I need to catch up first in smoked cigarettes
haughty flicker
he just like me fr
strange python
So id need to smoke a lot more
slim hamlet
Does it have to be cigarettes or can it be snus too?
slim hamlet
But