assassination

[mystic osprey]

Whats the best rogue spec for council?

[balmy condor]

Boomkin

[runic hinge]

ele sham

[cunning needle]

[balmy condor]

Council is a pushover meme fight

Play whatever you fucking want your choice matters 0

[mystic osprey]

Outlaw is completely trash for the fight

[balmy condor]

?????

Lmao

[mystic osprey]

I cant do shit on outlaw for it

[cunning needle]

whats wrong with outlaw

just do your rotation

[mystic osprey]

when I get ducked my AR disappears

[cunning needle]

mald a bit when you get ducked

[balmy condor]

Outlaw is great for council

[cunning needle]

then go back to doing rotation

[balmy condor]

Everyone gets ducked

Welcome to council

[cunning needle]

^

you know what also happens

getting ducked just after you press kingsbane

[balmy condor]

You think it’s better to get ducked mid dance or mid kingsbane?

[cunning needle]

mid dance i reckon

[spice spire]

Better to get ducked than fucked

[mystic osprey]

haha

[spice spire]

Tho I guess they’re one in the same

[cunning needle]

[spice spire]

[cunning needle]

i may have been ordering more roast duck

ever since council started

there is no correlation

at all

[spice spire]

[balmy condor]

On a non-dm kb?

Might be close

[mystic osprey]

looking at logs all the rogue specs do perform well ay

[cunning needle]

well if you can get your refreshed garrotte of it's probably okay

[cunning needle]

this is true in general

[mystic osprey]

im just shit at the game

[cunning needle]

and when i say okay

i mean its the least shit

[balmy condor]

“Well”

[cunning needle]

we all are brother man

the duck comes for all

[balmy condor]

The entire fight on council is manage puddles and deal with overlaps while your boomkins do half the raid damage

[mystic osprey]

and ele shaman

oo

[balmy condor]

I’m floored that it’s still on allstars tbh

[mystic osprey]

and affliction warlock atm lol

our affliction warlock is doing 2nd top dmg

somehow

[spice spire]

Seed

[mystic osprey]

yeah

its pretty cool that affliction warlock is alright on one boss fight

[balmy condor]

Affliction is like

A top 5 spec atm

Are we playing the same game

[drifting cloud]

:?

are you drunk again

[cunning needle]

no, i'm playing palworld

[cunning needle]

time for whispyr to rename me again

[balmy condor]

Affliction is crazy

[past forum]

But i just looked at a data aggregation website that had aff as c tier so that can’t possibly be true

[balmy condor]

Don’t let the fucking wizard specs gaslight you

[cunning needle]

warlock does this every fucking tier

they gaslight the entire community

including themselves

into thinking they are shit

then get buffed 50 fucking times

[balmy condor]

Affliction is a bit behind in single target

But anything else

Those mfers crank

[spice spire]

Call me affliction

Because I’m cranking

[mystic osprey]

man ive been playing outlaw

sin is a great break

[balmy condor]

That’s fine

Outlaw good

[mystic osprey]

I'm just a rogue andy

in general

[cunning needle]

tbh i acutally enjoyed this tier

i got to play all 3 rogue specs

[spice spire]

I also enjoyed this tier

[mystic osprey]

yeah

I suck

[bright turret]

this happened to sin this tier because the sim was lowish but the raid is practically designed to benefit burst

[mystic osprey]

but I got to play every spec

[runic hinge]

[cunning needle]

played assi all the way till smolderon

then swapped to sub from then on

[spice spire]

Okay I almost enjoyed this tier

[bright turret]

sin being super OP was not expected

[cunning needle]

sprinkled a bit of outlaw here and there as well as in m+

[balmy condor]

I also enjoyed this tier, except for smolderon, council, pre nerf tindral, sub being bis for the 17th time in a row, being a kingsbane cuck

[balmy condor]

????

Maybe if you lived under a rock

[cunning needle]

living under rocks is great for keeping cool tbh

[spice spire]

This is a good yearbook quote

[balmy condor]

When I went on Max’s stream before the raid and said 2 assa rogues in the race the entire chat Pepe laughed and called cope

And max was fucking struggling to keep it together

[bright turret]

that is what I mean tho

people look at sims and think that = raid

sin gets a 3% nerf and people in this channel think the spec died

[river ember]

Uh bis sin profile was simming at like 252 or something

[cunning needle]

ASSI ROGUE DEAD SPEC NOW

RET GANG RISE UP

or something like that

[balmy condor]

I mean sin was also one of the top simming specs at the start of the tier

So that doesn’t make sense either

[cunning needle]

outlaw was simming highest though

[mystic osprey]

ret palla

huh

feral

tf

[cunning needle]

they got big buffs last week

• leggo or something

[mystic osprey]

ret palla?

[balmy condor]

Yeah that list looks about right to me

[river ember]

250ish sim without pi

• great execute

People who paid attention knew it was going to be op. A lot of people didn’t know sub would be op because it was a buggy fucking mess with an unfinished apl until right before patch drop

[mystic osprey]

sub op for raid

sub for keys is ridiculously hard

to time well

[cunning needle]

sub also got a very rocky start

because shadowdust is "complicated"

[river ember]

Just play dark brew and you’ll probably do same damage you do on assass

dark brew build is still really good even if dust is way better

[cunning needle]

yeah

[mystic osprey]

dust is like 3 percent better or something

idk

[cunning needle]

and unless youre doing high keys

like 25+

it wont matter

gain 3% damage

lose 20% because you dunno when to vanish and you desync everything

[river ember]

Some are playing db in high keys to

It’s actually just good

kush was

Raz to

I love assass right now. But whispyr hit the nail on the head in the wowhead article and just generally about to much of assass centered around kb. Which is just going to make it stupid to balance with the way it works with pi and shit

[raven egret]

7/9 as of 3 mins ago 🙂

[cunning needle]

gzgzgzgz

[mystic osprey]

Some people play DB in high keys because it gives you the ability to use vanish as a healing cd

[mystic osprey]

grats bro

[balmy condor]

This can’t be real

I refuse

[mystic osprey]

He was doing it

He was playing goremaws bite

[cunning needle]

i did it all the time in season 1

or 2

[river ember]

That’s not the reason

[cunning needle]

whatever ulduarman was

[balmy condor]

M+ers are parasites

[mystic osprey]

still doing 1.5m burst on some packs lol

[mystic osprey]

some of it was yeah

[river ember]

but being able to use vanish for anything other than dps has uses

[balmy condor]

Actual aliens

[spice spire]

Tell me your real thoughts

[cunning needle]

well that was back when vanish wasnt a dps cd

[mystic osprey]

yeah just as a defensive cd

[cunning needle]

STOP MAKING VANISH AN OFFENSIVE CD

[river ember]

Yeah but that’s not why he was playing it

[cunning needle]

FUCK

LET ME USE IT AS A DEFENSIVE OR UTILITY

[mystic osprey]

He was also doing theorycrafting lol

[balmy condor]

Who is this he

[raven egret]

Imagine utility and defensive being utilities and defensives

[river ember]

Kush

[mystic osprey]

Kush

[balmy condor]

I wouldn’t call that theorycrafting lmao

[mystic osprey]

He was fucking around with builds

He tried a haste build with sub lmao

[balmy condor]

I mean unless you wanna insult actual theorycrafters I guess

Then go for it

[river ember]

The db build just works fine and has a decent dmg profile and doesn’t require any brain power

[mystic osprey]

yep

Rupture does way more dmg as well

[river ember]

In some keys i think it’s actually better than dust build

[mystic osprey]

can be

[orchid pewter]

Why does db get hate, its good in keys

[mystic osprey]

easier

[orchid pewter]

That too

[earnest remnant]

not used as a heal. but as a pseudo 30% DR with the vanish shield

DB build is just straight up better in higher keys, ngl

[rotund oak]

kush is probably crazy but also insanely smart.He likes to test stuff but dont think he's actually theorycrafting

Theorycrafting is what Fuu does

(also whispyr but i cant admit that,we hate each other)

[weary badger]

what poisons do we go on sang week? do we skip crippling

[earnest remnant]

there are a good more people involved in the process, atleast there is for sub/outlaw

[rotund oak]

i miss kojiyama and guy dudes barely talk 😦

[earnest remnant]

he still does implementations

[weary badger]

do we go wound poison for sanguine

[shy heron]

Yeah that's a thing

[orchid pewter]

Yes and spec into the improved one

[tough atlas]

having a discussion with a friend in terms which class will do more dps in a funnel target enhance vs assa rogue by lets say bringing mobs onto a 2min boss fight

[ebon cloud]

enh

[drifting cloud]

enh and its not even remotely close at all

[tough atlas]

yee seems about right

[keen spruce]

dank brew no dust?

[shy pecan]

For sin?

[balmy condor]

At least you haven’t fully crawled up kush’s ass like the other sap

That guy has got his head so far up kush’s colon he can drink the dudes stomach acid

[shy pecan]

[balmy condor]

Half of sappucinos messages are typed with kush’s nuts in his throat

Can’t stand that fucking ape

[orchid pewter]

Weird hate ngl

[shy pecan]

Oh. Yeah, that guy.

[quiet oar]

I like unhinged Whisp

[shy pecan]

He’s obnoxious AF

[balmy condor]

If you’d have to talk to him you’d understand

Sapp’s incapable of forming a coherent thought that kush hasn’t said out loud

[orchid pewter]

Dont even know who that is

[shy pecan]

Be glad you don’t

[balmy condor]

Sapp? Or kush

[orchid pewter]

Sapp

[balmy condor]

Good

You’re one of the lucky ones

[quiet oar]

He is on Sub channel

so never go there

[orchid pewter]

I mean i probably have read his name but idk

[quiet oar]

https://tenor.com/view/simba-lion-king-shadowy-place-shadow-place-simba-shadowy-place-gif-26625263

[shy pecan]

Just block him.

[balmy condor]

There are two regulars in here on my block list, and he’s one of them

[quiet oar]

KEK

[river ember]

who is the other

[orchid pewter]

Guy frfr

[balmy condor]

Soviet

[quiet oar]

[drifting cloud]

im the other one dont listen to his lies

[quiet oar]

Ah the CT fanatic

i see

[balmy condor]

You only go on the block list if you make it your personality to say shit that actively makes my day worse

And let me tell you

No one does it quite like those two idiots

[keen spruce]

I tried for a while

in s1

[quiet oar]

Yeah but you are a duck

You shit all the time

[shy pecan]

I know who I’ve blocked on here has grown a lot over the last couple of patches

[quiet oar]

My Block list is empty

[midnight mist]

Wtf whisp didn't block me yet

Pog

[orchid pewter]

Everybody loves you zac

Even tho you are french

[quiet oar]

Except Zeross

Zeross made it to his Life goal to annoy Zac

[midnight mist]

Almost blocked zeross at some point

[quiet oar]

[midnight mist]

Good timeline I remember it

[balmy condor]

I’ve gotten close to blocking zeross

[shy pecan]

He’s one of them for me

[quiet oar]

[balmy condor]

But it’s like bullying the slow kid in the class for not learning at the same pace, it’s just rude

[midnight mist]

[balmy condor]

He’s not actively saying stuff that makes my blood boil over

He’s just very slow

And once I realized that

[quiet oar]

Its so odd

[balmy condor]

He’s not bad

[quiet oar]

Like Tryan said

he is very calm

in his guild

[balmy condor]

Yeah I mean he seems like a chill guy

[quiet oar]

I think RH especially Outlaw chat is an enabler

for the ADHD personality

[balmy condor]

That’s just any online forum though

Every Internet forum is just adhd trap

It’s all massive group chat

[midnight mist]

Well whenever zeros isn't here outlaw chat is normal tho

He is the enabler

[quiet oar]

I mean

You cant change topic

When zeross is there

Because he is half the chat

when he is there

[midnight mist]

On topic

[quiet oar]

On Topic

[midnight mist]

Why are you always hanging out in here btw tiramisu

[shy pecan]

[river ember]

I’m interested in what he has said that’s annoyed you because i have had many similar feelings

[shy pecan]

Why are you?

[midnight mist]

I have to when my fellow outlawers are lost

[quiet oar]

Im hanging around in any chat here

[midnight mist]

I'm keeping an eye

[shy pecan]

[midnight mist]

You used to be one of us

I remember it

[shy pecan]

Ya

[midnight mist]

Don't think I forgot the treason

[quiet oar]

And you have to show you love to Whisp

[balmy condor]

I mean the thing that tipped me over is recently where he’s just randomly linking front page assa m+ logs to gush over how big his cock is on the dps meter

[quiet oar]

in Sin chat

[shy pecan]

Make outlaw not 70+ APM and I might be back

[orchid pewter]

Make outlaw season one and i am back

[balmy condor]

Bad news

It’s only getting faster

[shy pecan]

[balmy condor]

[midnight mist]

Best outlaw iteration we ever had and it's not even close

Listen

I won't ask for sin to get faster

[river ember]

Yeah man dude is obnoxious as fuck

[midnight mist]

You guys don't ask for outlaw to get slower

Deal or

[orchid pewter]

I'm still not over the fth nerf in season 1, its haunting me idk

[shy pecan]

Guess I won't be back to outlaw then 😛

[midnight mist]

Well it made outlaw kinda dumb tho

[orchid pewter]

But it felt so good

[midnight mist]

Maybe idk

I prefer engaging gameplay, when it's too easy it's boring

[quiet oar]

So you basically say you are old

[balmy condor]

Do you know how hard it is to argue for making assassination slower when outlaw players are plugging in a second keyboard in order to press their buttons twice as fast

[orchid pewter]

I just get frustrated from not getting ace procs now

[quiet oar]

Zac wants an Dark Souls Boss as Rotation

To make him feel good

[balmy condor]

Y’all mfers make this shit harder for every other spec in the game with your quest for apm

[ashen orbit]

Outlaw gotta go fast

[quiet oar]

When Outlaw players start playing sin and dont know what pooling is

[balmy condor]

if I have to hear someone say "but it's already slower than outlaw" when talking about assassinations apm

one more time

I'm gonna lose my fucking mind

[quiet oar]

Ok guys

One of you has to take the bullet

@midnight mist

[orchid pewter]

Its assa, they get taken out back every patch anyways

[midnight mist]

I like sin being slow

I really liked this tier set sort of pulling mechanic

I think I would have gone crazy playing sin without that

[balmy condor]

yeh

it's a return to form

resource based gameplay

this is probably my favorite version of assa overall

[orchid pewter]

Same

Tier and spatter make my pp go weird

[balmy condor]

legion is a close second but I can't let the fucking 20%-of-your-dps-kekw poison bomb win

[quiet oar]

The RNG poison bomb

That made or break your parse

[balmy condor]

yeh that shit was cancer

not that the RNG is any better this patch

but at least you don't notice it until you log dive

in legion you're sitting there pressing envenom and it just won't proc

[static glacier]

Bro isn’t traumatised by BotA opener procs vs no proc

[hallow token]

Chances they revert the 3% nerf? I figure 0%.

[static glacier]

💀 agonizing poison

[quiet oar]

https://tenor.com/view/first-time-meme-first-time-the-ballad-of-buster-scruggs-gif-24656975

[static glacier]

I’d say we’re more likely to see non burst buffs

[hallow token]

Yeah not at all, haha

[static glacier]

They don’t like KB being juiced

[quiet oar]

Chances sin gets buffed this Season

are pretty low

in General

Except they Buf everything to the moon

like ret

[static glacier]

Ret is a slightly special case

Spec can’t aoe and st at the same time

If it’s pure st isn’t v good the spec will be meh damage-wise.

[midnight mist]

gotta keep sub on top fr

cant have a tier without sub being better it is what itis

[earnest remnant]

true and real

only chads main sub rogue

[river ember]

Tuning wise i actually loved sin at the end of 10.1.5 really good boss dam. Obviously the rework has been great but being op then feeling like your trolling not playing just sucks

not playing sub*

[quiet oar]

https://tenor.com/view/bestie-besties-so-true-so-true-bestie-kirby-gif-25485425

[bright turret]

sub being able to move CDs around is going to be a problem long-term, gonna need fixin

[earnest remnant]

only the best can play sub

Raz wouldnt lie

[river ember]

Gaslight

Gatekeep

Subboss

[royal lantern]

you litearlly saw 2, TWO, outlaw iterations

[earnest remnant]

3

he played in SL

[midnight mist]

wdym

even in SL

we had like

6/7

[royal lantern]

allright thats like 90% of the average outlaw lifetime but still

[earnest remnant]

best outlaw was BFA outlaw

embrace the RNG

[bright turret]

but what about the big dopamine BTE resets gives you now

[shy pecan]

Spend 75% of your combo points rerolling

[earnest remnant]

BUT WHEN YOU ROLL

that juicy roll

maaahh gawd

super saiyan time

[midnight mist]

people are still coping about talents ofering more builds variations than before, when in sl we played something different every .5 patch kekw

[bright turret]

the 6 roll when boss goes immune?

[earnest remnant]

i ony touched that dog spec in keys in bfa

[midnight mist]

ayo

be respectful

[earnest remnant]

BFA outlaw was the most miserable thing in raid

[shy pecan]

[royal lantern]

thats not different iterartions mate

thats playing different talents lol

[earnest remnant]

just a casual variance of 40% from pull to pull

very noice

[shy pecan]

Five buff in BFA was something

[bright turret]

bfa reminds me

[midnight mist]

well idk whats an iteration to you

[bright turret]

i guess sub being broken now is to make up for them dumpstering the spec for an entire xpac for being OP on a single fight

[midnight mist]

sbs gsw felt different enough to me than kiryan dust that I would consider that 2 iterations you know

[royal lantern]

nah, sub is op all the time cus the spec is barely functional and just stuff thrown togheter, and to compensate make the numbers high

[bright turret]

i dunno its post rework design definitely did not take the raid design into account at all

probably just thought it'd be cool if they could move CDs around, and then raid has multiple 100% damage phases

[earnest remnant]

well only boss where it was relevant was smolderon

[bright turret]

the harder bosses having no functional execute phase didnt let sin shine as much either

[static glacier]

Low-key wish we had more build variation on OL

[bright turret]

its relevant on fyrakk too if you have the P1 damage

get a huge milk

[royal lantern]

p1 fyraak dmg is a meme

lol

[bright turret]

in most cases yes

but if damage is high enough due to sub rogues, you can trigger transition when he does the really long cast

im sure there will be some fights in fated (lol) where sub can be cooked too

[earnest remnant]

Razsageth

Cooldowns for the shields

[bright turret]

yea that's the first one that springs to mind

if the fight has any difficulty to it

i cant remember if the elemental guy had some hp phase change funkiness where it could help too

might be able to cook maximum CDs into p3 of nelth and sark too

[earnest remnant]

Assa on Sark tho

god damn

50% haste

[river ember]

I’m sure dust will get changed

[earnest remnant]

yes please

[bright turret]

yea sin will shine on him

since p3 is ugly too

[royal lantern]

just delete dust lol

[bright turret]

skip a portal on nelth as well

[earnest remnant]

also spatter on Sark is really good

[bright turret]

oh that is true

splatter is gonna be good on a lot

[earnest remnant]

same with Rasz tbh

spatter is good

and KB is very good

[keen spruce]

yeah but they'll just nerf assas 3 times right after fated comes out

then it'll be unplayable

[bright turret]

yea i don't doubt that sin won't still be strong

i mean, while sub is currently the best raid spec atm, sin is still very good

[river ember]

If sin is strong it’ll go into pi territory

and then be op

and get nerfed

[bright turret]

i doubt they're gonna work very hard to balance fated

if its anything like SL where if you know the fights they are free

[vestal wren]

same chance as sub beeing good on any beta/ptr build when there are changes

[vestal wren]

i do think dust is now part of th fantasy

removing dust puts sub and sin in a very similar position damage profile wise

[bright turret]

Having insane burst, and being able to move that burst around is going to be problematic in future raids

unless something is toned down

[vestal wren]

season 1 and 3 repeated the same pattern.

• Sin/Outlaw tuned very good on ptr
• Statistics show both to be too good -> nerf
• Oh hey, subtelty still exists

[vestal wren]

i am not entirely sure about this

but i agree with your sentiment

if you "tone it down"

what is your gut reaction

[bright turret]

its certainly possible it isnt relevant based on future fight designs

i can't answer that honestly because I'm not a fan of how it currently plays

[vestal wren]

you suddenly require a lot more effort to deal possibly worse damage than simpler specs

i assume this is what you are after

but also would diretcly mean, the fairly difficult cooldown management becomes a chore instead of a feature

also it would mean that weaknesses we atm can ignore will make things even less appealing

[river ember]

Imagine playing dust and doing the same ST a bm hunter is doing

[bright turret]

yea, but now we're entering the philosophy of should a spec that is harder to play do more damage

which I don't really agree with

like if sin and sub didnt the exact same damage, you'd see way less sub players simply because it is harder to play and also the CD management is a little bit of a chore

cause every fight can wind up being different

[vestal wren]

if sin and sub did the exact same

and you had no dust

[bright turret]

but also you wind up with the smolderon issue

where moving CDs around just breaks it

[vestal wren]

you would have exactly 5 players who play sub

because just simply in terms of design assassination has a lot of benefits subtlety has not

or to put it diffrent, subtlety has more weaknesses

[bright turret]

yea, but that begs the question of is sub actually fun to play because of design, or only because its the best?>

[vestal wren]

so "equal tuning", you wouldn't touch sub

[bright turret]

if it has to be the best to be played, that's an issue

[vestal wren]

the key element to discuss is balance

[earnest remnant]

sub is usually like arcane mage

people dont really wanna play it unless they have to

[vestal wren]

because what you atm assume is that subtlety is way ahead of everything else

but this is based on the wcl statistic

[bright turret]

nah it isn't

its only like 5% more boss damage than sin

[vestal wren]

and this exact fight has multiple fights subtlety just destroys

[bright turret]

the gap is small enough you can get away with playing sin atm

[vestal wren]

because of dust and burst windows

you can atm even look at heroic

moment

[bright turret]

its hard to judge it fairly based on stats because so many fights are over before 4 mins

which vastly favors sub

its bursty AoE and CD cooking makes it very good on the last 3 fights though

[vestal wren]

and you see

a more even spread between the specs

[bright turret]

but those fights don't really benefit sin's execute at all which doesnt help the comparison

[vestal wren]

if we look back two weeks

[bright turret]

you gotta remember those sin rogues are mostly getting PI

actually, did they ever get around to fixing sub's aug hooks?

[vestal wren]

i can't say

i don't have any statistical evidence

[bright turret]

i know it was overstated like 2-3%

[vestal wren]

to know how many % of the logs are with pi

[river ember]

Yes they did

[earnest remnant]

only shadow rupture

is left

[vestal wren]

!aug

[prisma monolith]

Rogue abilities not being reattributed to Augs in logs:

Shadow Eviscerate Poisoned Edges Sudden Demise

More information

[bright turret]

but this discussion did make me realize

sub only seems so much more amazing because sin's execute doesn't really benefit anything this tier

[vestal wren]

just to talk roughly about tuning

there are multiple specs that sim higher than subtlety

or about equal

(subtlety is around 251-252 ideally)

but many classes have strong 2 mintue cooldowns

so e.g. to take worm as an example

[bright turret]

Nah I get what you are getting at, short fights like worm (dead in 3-4 minutes) makes sub look stronger than it is

[vestal wren]

kill times are around 3 min to 3 min 30

so thats perfect for a spec that can adjust like sub with dust

but are the worse case for a 2 min static cd spec

to show you the reverse

[bright turret]

but its also why I think moving CDs around can be a problem

how often have we had fights where you gotta beat a certian mech overlap?

now you just have a sub rogue move CDs around to help push it

[vestal wren]

there is an assassiantion rogue at the top of one of the worse fights for the spec even

[vestal wren]

tbh, not that often

it is even funny how this tier has smolderon

with such specific fight timers

perfect for subtlety

[bright turret]

smolderon is a good example of how one hand doesn't know what the other is doing

[vestal wren]

and this while, looking at realz message history. Dust was not seen as a core of the spec (but something optional)

[wild birch]

!dagger

[prisma monolith]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/316923682607857685/1181335994256064623/dagger.webp

[vestal wren]

raid design is quite essential in what we precive as balanced

the exact same applies to m+

if you remember back to s2, outlaw was not played in high keys because of the target cap

[bright turret]

yea that is a balancing act I do not envy

a spec can be godlike in raid, and crap in M+

[vestal wren]

but the target cap applies to outlaw this season too

and if we look at play rates

[bright turret]

the talent that let them preserve buffs was a big gamechanger

[vestal wren]

almost 100% of top keys are palyed on outlaw

[bright turret]

as well as vanish getting off CD so easy helps break a lot of mechs

[violet sonnet]

outlaw has too much consistent damage on packs

[bright turret]

outlaw is just damn insane on M+, but also very solid in raid too

[violet sonnet]

aint no way to compete with it

[vestal wren]

the diffrence is tuning rly

it isn't as visible on !fuu

because i did not break down individual target counts

[orchid pewter]

Thats fake, you almost never use it for mechanics

[bright turret]

the rework greatly enhanced its survivalbility

[orchid pewter]

On outlaw

[vestal wren]

but outlaw is blasting on lower target counts

also outlaw and assassination both still do priority damage, cleave and in aoe

[violet sonnet]

they made our prio damage feel kinda meh which made me feel kinda meh

[bright turret]

consistent damage has a lot of value in M+

[vestal wren]

burst is technically the better damage type

[bright turret]

sin having KB for one pack, and then not the other can lead to problems

[vestal wren]

assassiantion and outlaw both beat subtlety in sustained damage

what top key runners do atm to make sub work is focus on the burst aspect

[vestal wren]

yes, having more static cooldowns does mean the pull strategy becomes very important

[bright turret]

outlaw is just easier to play in M+ as well

[ashen orbit]

KiR is not very easy imho

[violet sonnet]

i got 2.5k and i just kinda stopped pushing atm

[vestal wren]

i do think each of the specs has certain things to it that make it hard

[bright turret]

i've been too lazy to look up kir at all

[vestal wren]

so there is some amount of skill celling you have access to

[bright turret]

sin definitely feels the easiest in the raid to me, but I'll never want to play it in M+

[violet sonnet]

i still feel assas requires the most amount of nuances to really maximize its damage that i quite havent gotten down yet

[bright turret]

outlaw just press blade flurry once at start and grats you are AoEing now

[orchid pewter]

I mean

[vestal wren]

i would not throw stones while sitting in a glass house

(assassiantion has a talent very similar to blade flurry)

[violet sonnet]

but also s2 dragonflight is the first time ive played in like 5 years.

[orchid pewter]

Sin is pretty free in m+ aswell its just that the design is not that good for lower keys

[bright turret]

could be i just never gave it a fair shot since I've play outlaw in M+ forever

and I enjoy the rework of it

[earnest remnant]

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2041121197?t=0h43m59s
nothing more true has ever been said

Raz is a real one

[vestal wren]

i think everyone has their prefered choice

[bright turret]

i just hate managing dots on multiple targets, but I know sin got a huge helpful talent for that

[midnight mist]

Based take

You can even bf pre key

And you never have to press it again

[vestal wren]

shortly followed by
https://youtu.be/2TELgRG25ns?t=457

[midnight mist]

How easy is that spec omegalul

[earnest remnant]

nah works fine for me

[vestal wren]

didn't load for me, not sure why

[royal lantern]

where is the boyfriend key

[royal lantern]

who the hell watches shit like that

[vestal wren]

idk, people who link me the clips

its nothing to take seriouse

[peak lake]

Heya, tindral down yesterday, was looking for assa instead of sub on fyrak for the execute. Is there any issue with branch on the fight ? Most ppl run ashes now, but i don't have it in 89 when i have 89 branch

[royal lantern]

branch can be shity to use on fyraak

and i love how people here ask for assa on fyraak, and i get benched and replacdd for a ret paladin on fyraak because i dont play sub on it

the RL brainrot is incredible

[peak lake]

did he have the leggo ? 😄

[royal lantern]

no

[peak lake]

rip

[royal lantern]

but 2/9M

but ret buffs, need to go full idiot now and replace longtime players

[peak lake]

i don't see why RL could ask for sub instead of assa, both spec are strong on the fight

[ashen orbit]

Sounds like rl doesn’t like you

[peak lake]

Just expecting p3 to be the hardest, so i'm preparing for it

[ashen orbit]

And it has nothing to do with specs

[royal lantern]

mutual at this point

[peak lake]

https://tenor.com/view/beach-time-vacation-im-leaving-baby-suitcase-gif-17277572

maybe its time

[ashen orbit]

Like he replaces you with a 2/9 that I presume knows the fight less than you and you play a meta spec

Seems weird

[oak tangle]

or he's one of those clowns that saw "sin nerfed, must swap specs"

[royal lantern]

2things happen when you climb the WR

1, higher chance of people beeing racist/homphobic "for fun"

2, rl getting peak brainrot

[oak tangle]

i made my first major step towards that kinda environment i guess. made an alt rogue and joined a guild with 3 mythic prog teams at varying prog

[royal lantern]

eh its just

[oak tangle]

but point 1 is my existence being australian, and point 2 is also kinda the same

so im used to that stuff

[royal lantern]

if you go higher, chances increase you get the "never interacts with people and are just perma onnline" guys that are mentally in 2005

and thought xbox live voicechat was peak comedy

[ashen orbit]

What kinda guild is this

[oak tangle]

they have like 8 raid teams, and something like 900 members. it's not a raid night, but there's like 60 people online

at the very least is a home for my alt

[royal lantern]

bruh

[oak tangle]

in my entire time playing wow, i've only ever been in the guild my friend invited me to,, which im now an officer in, but nothing like this many people online ever

so kinda refreshing to be a fish in the pond again

[crisp pine]

I haven't been in a guild since Legion

[muted tapir]

Do you guys remember liver king

Was he not natty

[oak tangle]

i was looking for a specific addon that zooms into your character when you open the stats window and i found this

and i had to double take because i saw whispyrs video on how stats dont matter

[whole mason]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Weakauras/Plater profiles:
Whispyr's Afenar Edit
Luxthos's Group
LE's Group
LE's Profile (lots of one-off weakauras)
Devlin's Group
Ceverion's Plater
Whispyr's Plater
Pooling Practice Tool

[gaunt moat]

Hey @earnest remnant i've got an offer for you.

[earnest remnant]

what?

[earnest remnant]

old meme already used

[keen spruce]

I have an offer for you

[gaunt moat]

Is that a no?

[keen spruce]

[gaunt moat]

@keen spruce We also got to phase 2 few times 🥴

[keen spruce]

surely the rest of prog will go quickly and painlessly for us

[gaunt moat]

But like, not for a long time.

Our best attempt was 62% in like 95 pulls.
somehow i doubt it will be quick and painless

Very fun boss when you start the fight and after 20 seconds everybody explodes, and i still don't even know why

[keen spruce]

bad dispell

or dispell walked into a fire beam

or tank didn't soak mushroom

we already slammed out 134 pulls

in 2 raids

is this progress

[gaunt moat]

Repair NPCs be like 💰 💰 💰

[gaunt moat]

dat gap between the 60~ to the 110~

[royal lantern]

just like you

[royal lantern]

20sec?

bombs in the air or tank mushroom soaks

[gaunt moat]

i got told it's tanks

but i have no idea why is moving to mushrooms hard

[royal lantern]

ye if they miss 1mushroom everyone just indtantly dies

the timers for them are quiet tight

and if you have a brainfart and both walk to the same one its a wipe most of the time

[gaunt moat]

Tanks should not have mechanics

just be a dummy target for boss

2nd phase we wipe cause not enough dps on roots to free fast enough to do seeds, since we get there with already few deaths

[royal lantern]

ye wait, Double dispells aswell when its 20sec

[gaunt moat]

I don't even know what they're dispelling

[royal lantern]

tbf, you barely need root dmg anymore cus the dragonriders almost fully solo them when comming down

[royal lantern]

the big fire puddles

raid dmg when dispelled on the guys that have them, 2000% more dmg from it for 3seconds after a dispell

aka dispell fast but not 2 at the same time

or raid go boom

p2 is also just very healing intensive

[bleak plume]

how does kingsbane snapshotting work exactly?

if you have e.g ashes popped before applying kingsbane, does kingsbane get the maximum benefit of the agi buff even at the end of kingsbane?

or do you get more value from e.g popping ashes when kingsbane is low duration remaining?

[royal lantern]

there is (almost) no snapshotting in the game, except for nightstalker

and thats why everyone is doing a dance+kb macro

[bleak plume]

So you'd want to use ashes when kingsbane is low duration then

why is everyone using it on deathmark

[keen spruce]

simplicity

[royal lantern]

nah, 2sec after KB is "the best"

in reality

[keen spruce]

most people bind it to kingsbane

[earnest remnant]

there are more "snapshots" in the game just not for assa, Feral has a bunch Sub has a few as well

[royal lantern]

macro ashes with kingsbane

[bleak plume]

but then by the time kingsbane does it's strongest ticks

ashes has like 40% of value

[royal lantern]

its like 0,2% worse then the "optimal" usage lol

[bleak plume]

so why not pop it at the end

[royal lantern]

the math was done

[keen spruce]

beacause kingsbane does damage for it's whole duration

[royal lantern]

you would waste 80% of your deathmark aswell then

and kb always does dmg

just more at the end

[keen spruce]

if you only cast ashes on the last tick of KB yeah that tick will do more damage

but you then have 6 ticks completely unbuffed

and the rest of ashes wasted

[royal lantern]

fuck snapshots

[keen spruce]

on your 0 damage after your CDs

[royal lantern]

Clunky as shit

[bleak plume]

gotcha

thought kingsbane snapshotted somehow

thanks for clearing that up

[royal lantern]

just macro ashes with kingsband and thats it

[bleak plume]

so its only nightstalker that snapshots?

[keen spruce]

for assas ye

[bleak plume]

I'm using witherbark but was wondering if its worth getting ashes

[royal lantern]

dont need to think about it and its litearlly only 0,2% worse then the "optimal" usage

[keen spruce]

witherbark is better

we just use ashes on tindral and fyrakk

for simplicity and ease of use

[bleak plume]

clunky in m+ or some raid encounters due to movement

[keen spruce]

ye

[royal lantern]

bark is the best trinket overall, but actually unplayable on tindral and really really funky on fyraak

so most just go ashes there

cus ashes is slightly worse but doesnt require that weird bubble minigame

[clever sapphire]

ashes over branch all day every day

i take comfort over shitty ballz

[native heron]

I despise branch and any on use trinket. I don’t like more buttons to remember to press lol

[clever sapphire]

i dont mind on use trinkets, like i didnt mind puzzlebox/grieftorch and so on either

[royal lantern]

tbf, in 90% of cases, on use trinkets just turn into "macro with major cd"

[clever sapphire]

i just dislike branch in general

[royal lantern]

double on use? yeha fuck that

double use is hell

[clever sapphire]

you can usually macro one of the 2 on use to an ability

so it becomes a single on use

[bleak plume]

what if you take intentional dmg to trigger the extra ashes proc

[clever sapphire]

unless its bomb dispenser

[keen spruce]

i kinda wish they'd just do away with steroid on use trinkets

[clever sapphire]

feck that shit

[bleak plume]

is it still performing worse

[keen spruce]

go back to vanilla goofy trinkets

they could even just make trinkets into a slot that covers missing group buffs

or utility

like luffas

or battle shouts

or w/e

[clever sapphire]

give me more trinkets like boon

[keen spruce]

nah

dk damage/stat trinkets

fk

[royal lantern]

today in very very very rare shmeeps L takes

[bleak plume]

i like branch, it actually has an extra mechanic to using it, compared to other on-use trinkets

[royal lantern]

[bleak plume]

gives some flavor to actually using the trinket rather than a flat dmg buff

[clever sapphire]

cool idea, now you can lose 1 trinket slot so people bring you into their group cause you have a raidbuff

[keen spruce]

they're either

A) stat stick that does nothing
B) passive proc trinket that just makes damage go up
C) macro into major CD steroid
D) some obnoxious BS

no i mean get rid of stat/damage trinkets all together

and just have trinkets be trinkets

just thingies that provide utility

like

bruh the word trinket

is like a doo-dad

not a "call a cosmic being from the stars to drop a meteor on your enemies head"

[clever sapphire]

@royal lantern funny how i mentioned monster/redbull as describing outlaw, now i look into that channel and this the first thing i see

[keen spruce]

or a literal flamethrower that is powered by the deaths of your allies

[clever sapphire]

dunno, i dont mind trinkets as long as they give me a visible representation

aka they look cool

thats why beacon/grieftorch/boon cool, bomb dispenser shit

[keen spruce]

i thought bomb dispenser was lame

[native heron]

True but still. Some trinkets just get out of hand lol

[keen spruce]

the other 3 were cool

[clever sapphire]

yep same

bomb dispenser should have been a passive random proc trinket

cause it already kinda was, but with the fact that it was an "on use"

[native heron]

I also play enh shaman and the last thing I want is another button… lol

[clever sapphire]

enha doesnt really like on use tho afaik

or well thats my last knowledge

cause they always pressin shit, so stat sticks are just better no?

[bleak plume]

can i somehow add raw stats to a raidbots sim, since it doesnt seem to be applying runes for it's sims?

[quiet oar]

Wdym runes dont apply

[bleak plume]

i see no rune buffs in my simulations

[quiet oar]

Can you link sim

[bleak plume]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bQ3ifMNsXJeHpDDBYJTxmU

[quiet oar]

It is applied

[bleak plume]

where do you see this?

[quiet oar]

HTML report

In gear

[bleak plume]

aha i see

is it possible to change the rune somehow?

okay nvm i found it

[peak lake]

U wont die from explosion most of time (thanks cheat death), just jump and u don't have repair cost 😄

[jaunty warren]

Do we know if the layoff from Microsoft hit the WOW team ? I hope reels and others are safe .

[royal lantern]

probably?

i doubt that you fire 1900people across your 3 gaming companys that where mentioned and the wow team got 0 hits at all

but nobody knows

and also pointless too talk about it

[spring socket]

any 1 got some sims i can compare with for ST ?

[dark token]

back where we belong

[royal lantern]

why is assa not A tier

its called Assa

not Fssa

[limber lion]

Good one Tryan

Aindwalker is my favorite spec

[quiet oar]

Semonhunter

[spice spire]

HUH

[quiet oar]

[hardy dagger]

Assa f tier

Clearly we need a buff

[fallow canopy]

all the Deus Vult RPers are feasting

[quiet oar]

Did they ever buff a spec

After destroying it

In the same Tier

I mean its an Blizzard classic

Nerf overperformer at start

[hardy dagger]

I don't think they have

[quiet oar]

Nerf them again

[limber lion]

They buffed bm hunter a bunch before anyone had the bow

[quiet oar]

Buff everything else to the point where the overperformer would be in line

[limber lion]

and then suddenly it was the best spec by far

in vault that is

[hardy dagger]

Yeah it would be hilarious if they nerfed Assa with 3% again

[limber lion]

people suddenly started getting the 20k simdps bows

[quiet oar]

Ye that bow was crazy the first weeks

[dark token]

i think they have buffed then nerfed

[quiet oar]

I still have the mythic one on my rogue Bank

[dark token]

i dont think they have nerfed then buffed

there is no way sin gets a buff until fated

its in a "decent" not awful spot

[quiet oar]

Ye thsts what i mean

[dark token]

like spriest for example def needed buffs over assa

[quiet oar]

Its Pretty rare thst they "revert" nerfs

[dark token]

they were worse in keys and raid

[gusty mirage]

I'm a big fan of Asslaw rogue

[spice spire]

[woeful meteor]

asslaw is a hero spec in tww right?

[thorn fjord]

That like Coleslaw?

only it gives you diarhea?

[gusty mirage]

it's like coleslaw but ass

[spice spire]

Sounds delicious

[thorn fjord]

I love ass

buddy of mine got his weiner bit last night on a tinder date

Love not being single LMAO

[spice spire]

[hardy dagger]

[thorn fjord]

She looked crazy tho.. That was on him tbh

[gusty mirage]

[thorn fjord]

Apparently she drew blood

cant even imagine

[ember mural]

She was going for the exsang

[spice spire]

Crimson blades now bozo

[woeful meteor]

sanguine blades bozo

[thorn fjord]

Pidgy casts bite

[willow grotto]

Hello quick question, is it better to put an envenom or a rupture during the stealth buff?

[woeful meteor]

Rupture, but depends on timing

[nimble zinc]

Skill issue

[keen steeple]

Rupture if not applied is always the best option over envenom, so if the empowered rup is not on the target yet then rup

[maiden rover]

His date had that improved gathroat

[spice spire]

[river ember]

In the standard opener was it found sending first envenom at 6cp was better than using normal finishing rules at 4+ to keep envenom duration rolling through deathmark + shiv + kingsbane application

If i finish at 4 there envenom falls off

[thorn fjord]

You want to go higher than the 4 cp on opener to have env dot up at the start of kb

4cp will have it drop

[past forum]

doesnt opener already say to finish at 5+? or did i misremember

[runic hinge]

it does

[past forum]

lets fuckin go boys, i read, comprehended, AND remembered something

[runic hinge]

[royal python]

On smoldy mythic is it better to hold on to DM for first intermission or use on pull

[pseudo hamlet]

on pull

[latent frost]

I was told to sim sin at 1.5 minutes instead of 5. Is this correct? I get some majorly different results with each. Sorry if I missed the answer to my question somewhere

[pseudo hamlet]

If the bosses you are doing are dying in 1.5 minutes then yeah

[dark token]

wat

[spice spire]

For what

[runic hinge]

whomst is telling you this

[mental wing]

A bit of a weird question but maybe someone will know the answer. Does anyone know if there was any stealth buffs to garrote between 10.1 and 10.1.7 ?

[latent frost]

The fellow rogue I raid with. He said something along the lines of to sim 1.5 minutes because I should sim for my kingsbane windows, because outside of kingsbane we are envenom chaining, which doesn’t equate to a major part of our dmg. Regardless, my 5 minute sim was telling me to get a lot of haste (5.5k range)

[bright turret]

you sure your fellow rogue isn't just trolling you

what in tarnation

[drifting cloud]

1.5sim is such a terrible idea

[fleet pagoda]

don't let your friend cook anymore

[fallow canopy]

bro burnt the kitchen

[latent frost]

So I’m assuming with these responses I should stick with a standard 5 minute sim

[fleet pagoda]

if you're simming for a fight that you expect to last 90 seconds, the former makes sense. if you're simming for a prog kill context, the 5 min will be more valuable

is the gear being recommended between the two varying that much? just out of curiousity

[normal kite]

do we have a spreadsheet for what mechanics in the raid that is affected by feint?

[bright turret]

The only thing fight length is really going to affect gearing wise is using cata signet trinket or not

[latent frost]

Yes, the 1:30 sim recommends about 15% haste and generally equally weighted stats, favoring mast a little. 5 minute wants me to get a ton more haste, which is why I asked

I do not see a lot of sin rogues run more than 15-18% haste

[shy pecan]

... You're not doing stat weights are you?

[subtle tundra]

youre the first person i see talking about simming 1.5 minutes for raid

this is special

thanks

[latent frost]

Top gear always

[bright turret]

im assuming the 1:30 sim is weird about haste because it probably has lust in it

so that will devalue haste

[shy pecan]

Yeah. And it's not really appropriate for most content unless you're literally killing stuff at that pace

For 1.5 sims that is. Not for top gear stuff.

[fallow canopy]

the m+ fortified week only boss dmg kinda cooking

[latent frost]

Thanks 👍

[shy pecan]

But sim 3-5min depending on how fast you're usually killing bosses with your group. And don't worry about what % they give you.

[thorn fjord]

Any one else sick of the Env chain play

Shit is lame

[bright turret]

sin has been chaining envenoms for years though to maximize buff uptimes

unless you mean you're tired of it for the last 10 years

[gusty mirage]

fun fact if you sim 3min, it'll sim lengths between 2-4

(:

[spice spire]

Ur so real for that

[shy pecan]

TIL

[drifting cloud]

uhm akshually its +-20%

[shy pecan]

Well, good thing I only used it for like M+ bosses if I really needed it 😬

[gusty mirage]

[spring socket]

what are peeps simming at current at 219k is that about right (486)

[thorn fjord]

Not this way it hasnt

[runic hinge]

I love chaining envenom and pooling. Gives me time to check discord between casts

[bleak plume]

mine's 223 at 487

[runic hinge]

Or do a sim

[thorn fjord]

shit is so wack man

Before the nerfs you could get away with sending all willy nilly

now you cant as much

WEEEAAAAK

[runic hinge]

I came from feral where you have to pool for builders and spenders lol. This ain’t nothing to me man

[thorn fjord]

pooling is not a fun mechanic

[runic hinge]

I don’t know if I have a big opinion on it because it’s basically been all of wow’s gameplay for me. But I can see where you’re coming from

[spring socket]

is pipps better then signet brand for farm ?

[gaunt sigil]

I have seen some people use Bandolier and go double active on farm but I’m honestly not sure. I imagine pips is good

[thorn fjord]

For shorter fights yeah

[tame tangle]

totally disagree

i like pooling it feels good imo

gives feeling of control

[runic hinge]

I think the argument is it makes resource management important and energy and buffs aren’t just infinite

If you’re gcd locked what’s the point of even having energy

[slate crown]

The way I always phase it is finesse. It adds an element of finesse where your button pushes are not just "Push the right button by the next GCD". That involves skill, but there's always a next-cast angle that removes the finesse of exactly pressing them at the right time, because the timepoints are always "next GCD"

Pooling provides that

And that expression feels good, imo

[worldly oasis]

hello, i wanted to see how much of an increase would be a nick of time coming from vault, but in the droptimizer it comes without the timestrike, it's a bug right ?

[blazing jewel]

YEA BUT WHEN DO WE PRESS PISTOL SHOT

[runic hinge]

I’m not playing outlaw you can’t make me

[fleet pagoda]

i haven't seen that, but it has been accurate for me in the Gear Compare function

[slate crown]

https://tenor.com/view/meh-monday-morning-tired-coffee-break-gif-14544679

[worldly oasis]

i'll try that instead thank you !

[slate crown]

(To be honest though in making a reroller WA recently I did have to take some time to practice in order to properly test, and it was fun with KiR, even if I stopped logging back in after making it)

[blazing jewel]

What has infected your brain

[shy pecan]

Pretty sure it’s a tooltip bug with wowhead

[slate crown]

Doesn't matter, I have extracted myself from the situation

[blazing jewel]

Btw le

Remember the sound you added for the kb wa

My buddy that was watching raid but doesn’t know anything about wow

“Why do I keep hearing a chomp guy when you are fighting a tree”

[slate crown]

Love custom sounds, best things to happen to addons

and some of the WA built in sounds are just silly

[runic hinge]

I made the tea sound a clown horn lol and I streamed for my Guildies and they were wondering wtf was happening

[blazing jewel]

The abomination of the meme sound one that I think shmeeps made

[worldly oasis]

tried in gear compare and it did the same thing
well it will be an upgrade anyhow, just wanted to know by how much haha, thank you !

[blazing jewel]

That ended with whispyr saying “im unhinged” for the vanish timer lol

[slate crown]

I still have that file I think lol

Where's that video

[blazing jewel]

@keen spruce we summon you

[thorn fjord]

Nah man I just wanna unga bunga and smash env as fast as possible

Spin the plates smash env watch numbers go brr

Fuck pooling and down time

[shy pecan]

I mean, the sims should be fine. Just doesn't show in the tooltip for some odd reason

[thorn fjord]

Not pressing a button for 4-5 seconds at a time if not more is not an enjoyable experience

[slate crown]

I have it in here but it came from shmeeps and I don't remember where

[spice spire]

The woo will always be the goat

[thorn fjord]

I use gun sounds and cash registers lol

[lean plover]

would sin or outlaw be better for m+ pugs? ill try to take it to where my main is doing, 24-25-26s

[thorn fjord]

Both work fine

Basically preference

OL will prob snag you more groups tho

[lean plover]

do people not invite sin as much? so far it seems good on 16s

[thorn fjord]

i just assume the general pop is dumb and wont based on past pretenses

[lean plover]

well that makes sense

considering i have seen 1 sin rogue since shadowlands in m+ groups

[bleak ocean]

They do not inv sin as much as OL, yk? Since OL is higher up on the tier lists every youtuber makes lmao

[lean plover]

i come from frost dk, i highly doubt i will be invited less as sin

[bleak ocean]

LMAOOO

Oh yeah

100% man

YOU enjoy getting invited to groups now boy!

[lean plover]

well managed to get 3220 on dk

but getting invited to 25s, 26s in impossible

[fair stirrup]

all the vid's i've watched on rotation go: garrot, rupture, SND, potion, DM, shiv, KB, garrote, rupture (and inbetween building combo pts w/ ambush/mutilate as necessary)

[bleak ocean]

Colud be Narcissus, check it out

[fair stirrup]

this seems like wasted GCD's to me compared to: DM, shiv, dance + KB, garrote, rupter, etc.

[subtle tundra]

💀