assassination

[gusty mirage]

you should swap MM hunter

[desert shard]

I mean that's just rude

[gusty mirage]

[dense cedar]

never understood MM hunter players

[balmy condor]

Yes, you want to dbm warm whenever healing happens, swap into wound, then swap back

[dense cedar]

in the Legion+ era

[dense cedar]

[burnt star]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz

[marble hemlock]

Depends on whether there's other classes that can do it better

Wound is kinda garbage nowadays

[honest vessel]

just nightblade

o wait

[fluid glade]

so kingsbane back on top?

[simple gulch]

I'm a warrior main

but I was thinking of changing to rogue these last few days

[distant fox]

bleeds and poisons, tools that a really angry wife loves. well and we of course

[meager granite]

Make an Alexa like device that we can put on our desktop and ask questions about sims and optimization

[burnt star]

Is it the time to make assa faq get delayed 1 more week 🙂 and ask whispyr the question that must not be ask

Im.not asking!!! I promise

[balmy condor]

You get the title card

And nothing else

[burnt star]

🥰

[solar hare]

background

[wary ice]

is there a darkmode?

[gusty mirage]

did your phone add a white background to it?

[balmy condor]

It did

[meager granite]

so much white, my eyes....

[balmy condor]

[meager granite]

https://tenor.com/view/eyes-burning-my-eyes-spongebob-gif-5183364

[balmy condor]

I don’t Make the rules man

Idk

[burnt star]

Its cursed

[copper hazel]

popping flashbang

[balmy condor]

Oxi post the normal one

[wary ice]

the monkey paw curls

[balmy condor]

Yeah

[burnt star]

Siick

[meager granite]

Oxigod

have merci on us

[balmy condor]

Thanks iPhone

I saved the one oxi posted

That didn’t work either

Super cool

[meager granite]

https://tenor.com/view/android-apple-wipe-gif-8915661

[honest vessel]

even prettier than the other sneakpeak

omg

[meager granite]

But will the FAQ not allow us to keep asking directly stupid questions that have already been answered to?

[balmy condor]

Graphics department stepped up the game this time around

[wary ice]

I think apple saves things as .heif's which may not support transparency like the common png does

[marble hemlock]

Stupid questions are okay if they come from the right place. But asking stupid questions to annoy, is just not nice

[balmy condor]

The faq exists solely so you can use instead of

[thorny pond]

Read the FAQ button is a pretty color

bet it matches your eyes Whispyr

[balmy condor]

I have blue eyes

:/

[honest vessel]

yo same

bonded

✅

[balmy condor]

It’s almost like my pfp

Is me

[subtle tundra]

Noobs

[balmy condor]

Crazy

[honest vessel]

insert screenshot of that deleted wowhead comment

[balmy condor]

Stylized genderbend of myself

[meager granite]

the best simple answer to give to a new guy on the forum

[balmy condor]

Goes kinda hard

[thorny pond]

Just kinda hard

[honest vessel]

that is kinda sick

[thorny pond]

but anymore than that and we get slow moded again

[balmy condor]

Yep

I’ll put it on a 6 hour slow mode don’t bother me

I’m going sleep

:)

[meager granite]

see ya in 3 hours

as usual

[balmy condor]

Not like I care for slow mode anyway

I’m above the law

I am the law

[marble hemlock]

Outlaw?

[meager granite]

do you show the top half of your face tho?

[balmy condor]

I do

It’s just hair

[subtle tundra]

Toplaw

[spice spire]

Get some rest Vhispyr

[balmy condor]

Cutthroat highwayman

[distant fox]

a langhaarerter bombenleger 😄

if they are long enough you could do selfies with your hair and a chin looking out the bottom 😄

[drifting cloud]

whispyr go sleep

[distant fox]

i guess 32% uptime on CT is horrible? havent used it in st though, forgot that this was a thing in m+

[thorny pond]

Ryler is in charge now

Yea, keep CT up. Lots of new stuff to learn

Don't be hard on yourself - maybe leave a note ore WA reminder to press it when you don't have any up

[vestal wren]

looks nice

[spice spire]

God bless

Gl mister ryler

[kindred dragon]

Hi, im kindve new to using Elvui and wanted to see if there might be a good place to find a base one to edit from

[honest vessel]

wago.io for sure

[royal lantern]

so we simp for ryler now?

[spice spire]

Yes man

[thorny pond]

always have

[thorn crater]

is the tier 3 chest worth 50k? black market buy

what you guys think

[crystal tartan]

For sure

[subtle tundra]

No

[thorn crater]

lmao

the duality of man

[crystal tartan]

Lol

[subtle tundra]

Tmog is cringe

[hearty junco]

no t3 is overrated and ugly

fite me

[hollow river]

It’s worth 1m+

Typically

[crystal tartan]

I won’t argue but if he likes and wants it worth 50k for sure

[hollow river]

50k is a steal

[thorn crater]

long is 24 hours right?

ill check tmrw morning

[hearty junco]

dmg

[simple gulch]

Anyone knows?

[hollow river]

I miss u[s] (George and I)

[spice spire]

[hollow river]

[simple gulch]

Does anyone know what are the best weapon enchants in DF? for ST

[bold drum]

assa sims are running sophic devotion on st

[drifting cloud]

are you eu

bmah items expire between 19-22 on eu

I guess its probably similiar on us, but cba timezones

[safe cape]

It went for 1.6m last time on mine, and long just means over 12 hours

[fluid glade]

can we get sophic devotion on beta

[thorn crater]

yes im eu

ill just check tmrw morning

inb4 i get sniepd by someone in here

lmao

[drifting cloud]

my dude it will expire by then

bmah refreshes at 23:30 everyday

[thorn crater]

isnt long 24 hours?

and very long 48

and short 12?

[drifting cloud]

no lol just mouseover it

[safe cape]

I don’t think anything is ever over 24 hours is it?

It refreshes daily haha

[weak horizon]

in m+ when do i care about keeping snd up?

like how many targets before i dont bother using snd

[subtle tundra]

All the time

Bcs you press it once in the dungeon and unless you die or wait too long between packs you don't drop it

[weak horizon]

so i guess the idea is i try to keep it up with envenom when pack size is below 5?

[subtle tundra]

What does all the time mean

Why does pack size matter

[weak horizon]

well in packs greater than 5 i want to be using CT over envenom yeah?

[subtle tundra]

Who said that

[iron orchid]

you still fit envenoms even when you are >5 Targets

main purpose is keeping snd

[weak horizon]

i thought i read that on a guide by whispyr somewhere, let me double check.

[subtle tundra]

Fucking whispyr

Lucky he is asleep cause id say bad things to him

[iron orchid]

I think it's in the screenshots from the guide he's working on

[iron orchid]

but CT over envenom is for whenever you already have high uptime on SnD

[weak horizon]

that's off the current wowhead guide

but thanks for clarifying on SnD uptime

[iron orchid]

if SnD is going to fall of soon you still env

[subtle tundra]

Well he wrote here earlier that he will change

You don't envenom purely for snd

You do for the buff

[honest vessel]

you envenom to refresh the env buff

[iron orchid]

there's the env buff too

[weak horizon]

okay, i thought the envenom buff was a debuff applied to a single target?

[subtle tundra]

[weak horizon]

i guess it's actually a buff applied to you?

[iron orchid]

it's a buff you get on yourself

[weak horizon]

thanks

[iron orchid]

i thought so too when i started SL, but it's actually a buff not a debuff

[weak horizon]

so if i'm in a large pack of say 8 mobs i would basically alternate between envenoms and CTs?

while maintaining bleeds

[honest vessel]

buff lasts a long time

[iron orchid]

kinda

[honest vessel]

you might get more or fewer ct's in

[iron orchid]

but env just has to be up as much as possible

if you want you can tweak your UI to track env buff on you

[weak horizon]

as far as SnD goes in large packs, doesn't it not matter much for damage since it's just going to buff your melee damage? or is there something else SnD does in an aoe situation?

[iron orchid]

also depends if you run twist the knife or not (which you probably won't, given its really low value)

[static glacier]

I wonder if PB changes the number of targets you keep env up on

vs CT

[honest vessel]

not as of yet

[iron orchid]

it's only your melee, but it still represents a huge part of your damage, even in AoE

[honest vessel]

well

it might but you dont take pb

with kb and ic

[iron orchid]

it also means more poison applications on the target

[weak horizon]

okay, thanks a bunch guys

[dense cedar]

eveyone likes assassination

[static glacier]

ngl if things stay as they are im probably outlaw for m+ anyway

[subtle tundra]

Loser

[dense cedar]

lame mode

i do enjoy otl currently tho

even for low target cleave

both are fun

even sub to degree is enjoyable

rogue c:

[honest vessel]

even sub

blue name

[static glacier]

laughs in guns > knives

[honest vessel]

EVEN

sub

ok

[dense cedar]

have u seen those talent choices

[subtle tundra]

Ok rogue with gun. Stealthy my ass

Get real

[honest vessel]

yeah bro you can go dm or db or both! you can go 2 dance or 1 dance

so sick

[static glacier]

imagine if they went all in and we had a gun based stealth opener 🤣

[weak horizon]

my feeble brain can't handle the fast outlaw gameplay

[honest vessel]

sectec AND tornado?

INSANE

[drifting cloud]

varas put the phone away

[subtle tundra]

Subway gaming

[drifting cloud]

the sandwich shop or public transportation

[static glacier]

if sin is as competitive vs outlaw as end of bfa I will play sin in keys too

[subtle tundra]

Public transportation

I spend so much time in the subway I want to sleep

[dense cedar]

dunno why people talk about being competitive in keys when talking about rogue

[drifting cloud]

atleast you have them there

[static glacier]

we are competitive in keys

??

[honest vessel]

yes

[subtle tundra]

Yes?

[static glacier]

we have been forever infact

[honest vessel]

thats his point

[static glacier]

I mean sin competing with outlaw

[subtle tundra]

Assa is good yea

[static glacier]

not vs the rest of the classes lmao

hopefully the nerfbat stays away. sin in SL dungeons gave me depression

[subtle tundra]

Why would we get nerfed

🤯

[static glacier]

why would they buff demo's tier set when it's already the best performing warlock spec by a good margin

we can't predict blizz's actions. therefore fear the nerfhammer

[subtle tundra]

It's warlock

The hero class

[slim hamlet]

Main char

[static glacier]

it's like imagine if instead of the past 2-3 sin and sub buffs

they just decided to buff havoc for some reason instead

[subtle tundra]

Would be hilarious

[slim hamlet]

would rather not imagine

[static glacier]

legit what happened with warlocks. I can't understand it

[gusty mirage]

[drifting cloud]

oh, is demo the best performing lock spec as of now in df?

wasnt aware

[slim hamlet]

Seems to be the best in raid

Also dung with the latest changes

Dont quote me tho

[spice spire]

Buffed tier btw

[subtle tundra]

😴

[eager sorrel]

Yes, HoG is so high value damage wise :P

[dense cedar]

wish demo was fun

[white temple]

Bring GC back 👀

[static glacier]

as of current tuning it's best aoe and St, destro can compete if demo takes guillotine but with nether portal its ST is uncontested by the other two spec

[uncut echo]

Crazy how fun is subjective

A lot of folks find demo fun

Or it wouldn't be played

[dense cedar]

simply is not fun to me tho

[static glacier]

I enjoy it, liked prelegion demo more but new demo isn't bad

[uncut echo]

Then you forgot to finish your setence

Silly goober

[dense cedar]

incorrect

my sentence stands

[uncut echo]

[fluid glade]

any other dps class discord that runs sims

[median beacon]

I exsang after deathmark for gigachad energy

[slim hamlet]

-11%dps

[uncut echo]

I know dh does

[fluid glade]

yeah im just tryna look for a frame of reference for rogue st compared to others

[uncut echo]

But rogue disc is literally like the best class disc there is

[fluid glade]

yeah

[uncut echo]

I know we're higher end

[fluid glade]

this discord has the most information out of the ones ive actually looked at by far

[slim hamlet]

True and real, have been maining tons of classes. But this is the first one where I've really chatted in the disc

[uncut echo]

No the mods go apeshit here

Actually turbo brain input

Our class dev is active here

Like people build sims from feelcraft to figure shit out for best dps, by talking to folks in spec channel

Absolutely crazy

[fluid glade]

ye

[slim hamlet]

Who is class dev?

[uncut echo]

Realz

[gusty mirage]

no u

[uncut echo]

[spice spire]

No literally u

[uncut echo]

Oxi based

[spice spire]

So true bestie

[next edge]

Hi @gusty mirage just got home from work hope you had a nice day

[uncut echo]

Work sponsored lunch time with the homie who almost met god yesterday

[next edge]

time to pop up a bear and enjoy my spanish team

losing against Costa Rica

[spice spire]

Bless up

Didn’t Japan win today?

[next edge]

and there you go

a goal from spain

[gusty mirage]

https://discord.com/channels/124169701881282560/1043929861716181076

[desert shard]

yea I can confirm, rogue and dk discords are defo a cut above the rest in terms of research and info

[charred timber]

What spec will you all be lvling as?

[oblique tangle]

I'm so glad assassination is topping my damage charts

[spice spire]

I did not realize that existed, thank you oxi!

[vernal adder]

hopefully not too good, gonna get nerfed

[spice spire]

Also dh and rogue overlap with Koji - but rogue is lucky enough to have several dedicated tcs

[oblique tangle]

Well I'm alone and using target dummies

[vernal adder]

and we all know how they nerf usually

[desert shard]

as long as they only nerf

[oblique tangle]

[gilded swallow]

You're topping the meaters out of you and yourself on the target dummy? :>

[oblique tangle]

The more you explain it the less funny it is >:(

[obsidian parrot]

I keep being out of energy

[gilded swallow]

||I got what you meant, its a joke, Im sorry||

[oblique tangle]

Yeah you'd better apologize!

🙃

[dense cedar]

Go to sleep earlier and eat better

[gilded swallow]

Powernap

[obsidian parrot]

not that kind ahahah

[spice spire]

Poisons on? Bleeds kept up?

[obsidian parrot]

both

[oblique tangle]

Try playing assassination then

[obsidian parrot]

i am playng it

[slim hamlet]

Huh

[oblique tangle]

@gilded swallow how's AD alliance community?

[slim hamlet]

I feel like I'm never out of energy

[obsidian parrot]

maybe i lack thr talent that refound energy

im with the kingsbane build

[gilded swallow]

Depends what community you're referring to, the PvE community on AD is quite weak i think

[neat plank]

slow keypresser!!!

i need my thistle tea

[slim hamlet]

Huh

Not really

You just don't run out of energy on prepatch atleast

Very few times on a raid fight

[next edge]

Indeed

[gilded swallow]

Lots of haste + Blindside + some other energy talents

Probably becomes better with gear tho?

[slim hamlet]

I actually don't have that much haste

[gilded swallow]

Oh?

[slim hamlet]

because I played outlaw on my rogue

[gilded swallow]

Ah

[subtle tundra]

really

omg

[slim hamlet]

Yes

[subtle tundra]

you notice haste?

energy?

[slim hamlet]

Dont hurt me

[subtle tundra]

really

[spice spire]

Don’t entertain varas

[subtle tundra]

omg whispyr would be proud of me rn

[spice spire]

He’s a toxic mf

[slim hamlet]

Kinda in his name

[spice spire]

Real

[spice spire]

You normally don’t notice haste tho he’s not wrong

[gilded swallow]

Nice enough to warn people?

[subtle tundra]

you wouldnt notice any haste

[spice spire]

(I made the name change)

[gusty mirage]

I'd notice you in a crowded room

[spice spire]

16%>30% I legit can’t tell you the difference

[slim hamlet]

That's what i'm saying

[subtle tundra]

fart smella

[spice spire]

Varas two weeks without m+ hit diff

[gilded swallow]

Most of S3 my sims just yelled to get more haste, so stacked it af :o

[slim hamlet]

Yep

[subtle tundra]

well news are haste isnt that good in df

[slim hamlet]

still in s4

[spice spire]

Well yeah, it’s for the bleeds. It makes sense at that point

[neat plank]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz

[gilded swallow]

So I read earlier, without having really read into it yet, its a curious change

[night delta]

yeah, you'd get a bit of it first (because at low stats it is better than the others) then promptly switch to stacking mostly mastery / crit

maybe a bit of vers too, but it is a little inferior to the others

[spice spire]

Not as curious as you think! With so many energy regen talents; we’re less reliant on haste as a stat. So it shifts elsewhere

[subtle tundra]

i am inferior!

[spice spire]

It ends up we just like stats

[slim hamlet]

From Fuu's

[subtle tundra]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz

[spice spire]

[gilded swallow]

Makes sense tbf!

[spice spire]

I’m not keen on haste < vers

[neat plank]

stat prio changes though gotta re-sim from time to time

[spice spire]

^

Exactly

[gusty breach]

the theme of the demo lock is 100% fun

[marble hemlock]

i mean it kinda isnt

[night delta]

yeah, it's more like haste drops off after a point

so you'd want a little still

[gusty breach]

the actual gameplay? meh

[night delta]

but not too much

[spice spire]

They’re also in isolation iirc for that bit

[marble hemlock]

its more like, the sims were done with high haste/low vers, so vers plots better.

[subtle tundra]

i am so sleepersleepy

[marble hemlock]

they both suck

just get crit/mastery

[gilded swallow]

Spec into thistle tea

[spice spire]

9.1 gaming.
Moar Crit

[marble hemlock]

at the end of the day, nothing beats doing a top-gear sim to compare different pieces of gear

[spice spire]

Amen

[gilded swallow]

🙏

The weekly ritual of maintaining two specs, running to ZM to swap Soulbinds after you swapped covs, then back to Oribos

[marble hemlock]

if your piece doesnt have crit/mastery, youll wanna replace it with one that does. thats really the only useful info regarding stats imo

[gilded swallow]

Gonna be a diminishing returns on those stats as well right? So when you get too much of it haste/vers starts getting better again?

[night delta]

pretty sure the ilvl rule still stomps

tbf

except maybe if you somehow end up with truckloads of undesired haste

[spice spire]

Yeah but that’s where top gear reigns supreme

[gilded swallow]

Yeah my point

[spice shale]

Ya you want Crit/Mast but have you seen the tier sets. All that verse.

[night delta]

don't wanna OD on vers

hopefully we can get ourself an out-of-set crafted Crit / mastery piece instade of a hast/vers set piece

[spice spire]

The only thing I wanna OD on is assassination hopium

[uncut echo]

There nothing to hope for

We're already goated

[slim hamlet]

cant wait for ass to get nerfed if top 20 dps spec

[subtle tundra]

loser!

[spice spire]

Someone’s an exsanguinate enjoyer

[cerulean nest]

I love fuu's sheet so much

[thorny pond]

we love exsang

[prisma cypress]

when does it become worthwhile to refresh rupture outside of pandemic before exsanguinating?

or hasn't that been figured out yet

[slim hamlet]

at 30 secs

xd

[gusty mirage]

this is wrong

[spice spire]

The answer is yes. You wanna maximize that Exsang, at least on opener. For everything else I’m not 100% sure but pretty positive you want to maximize it

[gilded swallow]

@oblique tangle was here just earlier

[spice spire]

True

I know ahri specifically hates the ability

[neat plank]

I'm in EU so DF releases at midnight. I plan on sleeping as much as possible Monday afternoon and then pull an all nighter and go to bed normally Tuesday evening. What kind of junk food and drinks should I stack up on to maintain focus for as long as possible during the grind?

[vernal adder]

water

[neat plank]

no, it has to be degenerate

[spice spire]

Bananas and water.
Maybe some energy drinks if you’re cheeky

[vernal adder]

take shots of booze before release, then eat 2 hamburgers while lvling

[neat plank]

whats the optimal rate of red bull consumption?

[vernal adder]

then crash

[gilded swallow]

Same plan! 🙌 I fully expect the servers to just turbo die though lmao

[subtle kiln]

1 part vodka to 1 part redbull

[spice spire]

Last year I did fruit snacks and taquitos as my “junk” and kept water + fruit as my snack food

[neat plank]

I'm not worried about that, I'm prepared to take my chances, it's all about the shared feeling of the gates opening into the new expansion and stampeding with everyone else, I love that shit

[gilded swallow]

Really is the best times, took a few days off work for it

[neat plank]

same, full week 😛

[gilded swallow]

Full relapse back to uni days

I'm super hyped :D

[cobalt hemlock]

might as well try to get hour or two of sleep during beeing stuck in que

[neat plank]

hopefully no queue, i plan on logging on hours before it starts to avoid that

and i don't get disconnected 😛

[prisma cypress]

i figured that was the case, but i'm wondering when that becomes optimal, i.e. what's the minimum remaining duration i want to have before hitting exsang

[white temple]

Funny enough the power company of my state is going to cut off energy on the 29th so I don't have to worry about that 🤡

[cobalt hemlock]

yeah not sure how many eu degends will stay up until midnight just to start playing the xpac

its 28th?

[royal lantern]

cheapest energy drink possible

if your chest starts to hurt in the heart region, you are awake

[neat plank]

probably quite a lot, at least for a couple of hours

[spice spire]

29th technically for EU

[royal lantern]

there is no reason to do it tbh

like, you are max level, and then?

[spice spire]

But like Monday at 23:59, get ready to grind

[spice spire]

Profession grinding

Get woke buddy

There’s actually plenty to do to prep at least

Plus you can enjoy time with your guild (my route)

[gleaming geyser]

Unless you plan on leveling several toons, I dont really see the appeal to taking a full week off. There isnt that much grinding to do in DF so as long as you reach max and clear m0s you're good. Maybe I'm just projecting because I have too many work meetings and cant takes days off next week

and who knows what servers will look like (forever scarred from WoD release time off)

[spice spire]

Same pexa

[uncut echo]

I'm taking off 2 days.

[spice spire]

On the first part, not the second

[neat plank]

profession grind... but it's actually not really about getting ahead. The problem is I wouldn't be able to go to sleep normally anyway due to hype, so I may as well go full degen mode and grind away.

[vernal adder]

I was fast enough in wod I avoided the garrison dc shit

[spice spire]

That’s fine, ahri, you’re gonna wanna dodge osha, buddy

[copper hazel]

if you're on a big server, you're in for a bad time

draenor SL release was a mess

[fallen arch]

I think every server was a mess during most releases lately

I remember 2-3 hour queues during MoP as well

[spice spire]

Mal’ganis was pretty fine (US)

[fallen arch]

But Classic Vanilla was the worst

They were just not ready for the Classic hype

[oblique tangle]

WE LOVE EXSANG

[fallen arch]

no we dont

[oblique tangle]

We do not love working

[oblique tangle]

Agreed. Fuck work

[languid frigate]

Is there a reason the wowhead prepatch for M+ takes bone spike but the discord level 70 m+ does not?

[fallen arch]

and fuck exsang

[fallen arch]

cos double capstone?

[oblique tangle]

I meant activity in general. Wyrmrest Alliance was so dead for the past two years it's pain

[spice spire]

Double capstone provides more lines

[fallen arch]

is it possible to sacrifice iron wire for sbs

Which is trolling I know

and sacrifice SS

[spice spire]

[fallen arch]

Makes no sense

dont do it

[languid frigate]

Just curious if the level 70 gameplay is to forgo sbs, if it's worth getting into that gameplay rotation now. And take Shrouded suffocation instead.

[fallen arch]

I don't follow

[languid frigate]

level 70, you don't take sbs. But prepatch you do.

(in m+)

[fallen arch]

yeah because u cant get to 2 capstones now

[spice spire]

Because you can get both IC and KB instead, that’s the line.

But everything is a bit fluid right now as well, it’s all being looked at

[fallen arch]

It feels cursed to not take sbs in m+

[languid frigate]

Yeah which is why I was wondering if it's worth getting used to the playstyle of not taking it now, rather than dropping it at 70.

[spice spire]

In m+, it often comes down to comfort as well, so it’s definitely worth getting used to the play style to some degree

Numerically, it’s a fine talent. It’s not like it’s sepsis after all

[gilded swallow]

The RP community is going strong! Ofc got the dracthyr surge atm, and SW was sharded to fel the past week, but seems to have eased up now again!

[fallen arch]

Oh ye you can try

I mean, it's one less button?

[cobalt hemlock]

thats a w in my book

[fallen arch]

yeah but once you're 70 a couple are gonna be added

idk where all to put this shit

[cobalt hemlock]

yeah its tea and echoing reprimand ?

[fallen arch]

and kingsbane

[cobalt hemlock]

ye i had to buy an mmo mouse.....

[oblique tangle]

WoW afterlife so weird now. Npc's saying fel and he'll and now we have the SHADOWLANDS?

[thorny pond]

get a razer naga

[cobalt hemlock]

too expensive

[fallen arch]

no tea for current m+ build

[slim hamlet]

Fake

Never have to

[oblique tangle]

Go to Revendreth just doesn't have the same ring to it

[slim hamlet]

Weakling

[thorny pond]

Black Friday is right here for the US kids

[cobalt hemlock]

bro im not putting my abilties on fuckjing F1 or some shit where im gonna h ave to make a stun every timei wanna press it. more comfortable on mouse

[slim hamlet]

Agreed

Imma it tho

[sturdy merlin]

Did you give a try to alt/ctrl/shift bindings ? I respect your choice anyway

[cobalt hemlock]

first time mythic progging wanna do well 😛

[slim hamlet]

These are not that weird binds imo

Maybe the binds are but not the keys used atleast

[fallen arch]

you click ct?

fok?

[slim hamlet]

no second row is shift modifier

[fallen arch]

oh

[slim hamlet]

to whatever is under

[thorny pond]

shift + alt mods right?

[fallen arch]

oh right

[slim hamlet]

I only use alt + e for blindside

[cobalt hemlock]

this mine not sure how good but it works i guess

[thorny pond]

gotta hide the bars

like looking at your feet when you drive

[slim hamlet]

I swear I always have like 5+ more binds than everyone else atleast

[thorny pond]

trust yourself

[languid frigate]

Also another quick question, realised none of the builds take tricks anymore either. I often find assisting tanks to be pretty huge on large pulls. Is this no longer a thing for us?

[slim hamlet]

Not doing that

[fallen arch]

Apparently not

[thorny pond]

can move that talent point in the row around to it

[languid frigate]

I think i've taken it instead of gouge tbh. It will get much more use.

[thorny pond]

blackjack can move over too

[thorn crater]

who said you dont take sbs at 70?

what?

[slim hamlet]

These all seems really easy

compared to some sl sets

[languid frigate]

check pins

[fallen arch]

the pins do

M+ build

[cobalt hemlock]

i have sap only in my in stealth bar so you can save some spots

[thorn crater]

OH

m+ only

lmao

[cobalt hemlock]

same with distract and shroud

[thorn crater]

ye ok

[slim hamlet]

[thorn crater]

i had DTB and KB builds i nmind

not dedicated M+

[gusty mirage]

week 2 is about to be rough as fuck

[thorn crater]

though in all honesty IC might not be worth it on non fortified weeks

[gusty mirage]

esp early in the season

[thorn crater]

on low keys

[cobalt hemlock]

seems like a healer issue to me

[thorny pond]

any key

[slim hamlet]

prob the worst one yeah

specially with new healing requirements

[fallen arch]

they forgot necrotic yo

[thorny pond]

bursting griev = bless your heart

[gusty mirage]

nah

no one forgot about it

it never existed

[fallen arch]

We never forget

[gusty mirage]

necrotic was a figment of our imaginations

collectively

[slim hamlet]

Necrotic was a feverdream

[fallen arch]

idk it wasn't all that bad with a bear

[thorn crater]

i think

[fallen arch]

in s2

[thorn crater]

DTB on week 2

good stuff

[gusty mirage]

if we pretend it never existed

[thorny pond]

Did we get transported to tank discord? tf is Necrotic

[gusty mirage]

it wasn't bad at all

[fallen arch]

I mean, that's what we're trying with exsang

[gusty mirage]

the thing that you get when your tank falls over on a big pull

[fallen arch]

But someone keeps adding it to sims

[thorn crater]

legit question

should i put effort to learn dungeons now?

[fallen arch]

no

[thorny pond]

you mean the sissy I tricks and he runs?

[gusty mirage]

[thorn crater]

cause i got beta access

but im donig nothign with it

thought id run the mythics to learn whats going on

[slim hamlet]

Wait we can't get KB and DTB or am i just dumb?

[fallen arch]

oh I meant on live

[thorny pond]

you got a week off, then a few weeks of hell

[slim hamlet]

I was sure I saw a build with both

[gusty mirage]

I think beta m+ is done

[thorny pond]

enjoy not playing DF

[thorn crater]

normal mythics?

[gusty mirage]

but if not, yeah I'd go in and try to learn stuff about fights etc

[digital quarry]

As an Outlaw M+ degen, whats the general consensus on the state of Ass. in raids or m+?

[gusty mirage]

oh m0 should still work I think if the dungeon teleport dude is still there

[fallen arch]

we cant get kb and dtb together

[gusty mirage]

but ye

it's worth learning whatever you can

tf else we gonna do?

raid?

[thorn crater]

i have a stupid friend

that wants to gear up his 268 warrior

and keeps nagging me

lmao

to do raids with him

[slim hamlet]

Is SBS just like always better than sepsis btw?

[thorny pond]

shitpost in discord and wait

[gusty mirage]

268 is fine

[thorn crater]

I KNOW

[gusty mirage]

tell him to stop terrorizing you mentally

[spice spire]

Yes

[slim hamlet]

Sad

[gusty mirage]

p sure at this point

a 2nd step charge is better than sepsis

[thorny pond]

stepsis is pretty bad

[slim hamlet]

Step charge, what are you doing

[spice spire]

[thorny pond]

putting flag there would've been interesting

[spice spire]

Brothers ya’ll need out of November

[gusty mirage]

putting literally anything else there would've been interesting

[thorn crater]

isnt flag ass without unity?

[gusty mirage]

you could've put a talent that makes you moo everytime you auto attack

[thorny pond]

Put rampage there

[slim hamlet]

I like sepsis

[thorny pond]

cowards

[gusty mirage]

and it would've been more interesting

[gusty mirage]

sepsis as an ability is fine

[spice spire]

Nah flag decent still

[gusty mirage]

but it does no damage

it's a sad sad ability

[slim hamlet]

Yeah

sad

[gusty mirage]

and the bonus for using it is

[slim hamlet]

Feels like it def should be better in ST than SBS

[thorn crater]

not as sad as leightweight :kappa:

[gusty mirage]

"POG ONE STEALTH ABILITY OUT OF STEALTH"

[thorny pond]

sepsis needs to like, idk, grant 200% jumbo dps for it's duration

[gusty mirage]

[thorny pond]

random turn into another class' covenant ability, BDB anyone?

[gusty mirage]

sepsis needs the conduit & legendary effects caked into it to not be dogshit for us

and even then

still kinda meh

[thorn crater]

i mean

[gusty mirage]

but at least then it'd be a choice node

lmao

[thorn crater]

even sbs bout to be extinct

[oak sky]

You got that cake tho

[gusty mirage]

[thorny pond]

We should just choose to not talk about it anymore. I am stress

[gusty mirage]

it's okay, cmere friendo

[thorny pond]

🫂

So T Tea is poggers now with the mastery huh. I am sadge

[thorn crater]

we dont use it for mastery

[gusty mirage]

mastery nice bonus

we use for energy

these are dark times mr. beach

[thorny pond]

never felt starved sir on beta

[thorn crater]

@gusty mirage you have no idea how dark

[thorny pond]

always zooming

[thorn crater]

i am the herald of darkness

[spice spire]

I’m starved for beachpatrol

[gusty mirage]

[thorny pond]

If I can find a weekend guild, I'll be back to non-shitpost status @spice spire

[thorn crater]

u wanna see darkness?

should i do it?

[spice spire]

Yeah and if I can find something to do in wow I’ll be the same

[thorny pond]

Funny thought, just swap stepsis with doomblade on the tree. then we gotta take it

[thorn crater]

yeah

more buttons

guys get the pitchforks

[thorny pond]

we get like 45minutes between abilities

[thorn crater]

btw do we have the most buttons as dps spec right now?

[thorny pond]

calm

[thorn crater]

does anyone know?

[thorny pond]

More than DH kek

[thorn crater]

oh you poor innocent soul

[slim hamlet]

I saw that unholy dk was having issues with cds atleast

/buttons

[thorn crater]

adn then there are mages

[thorny pond]

I heard druids are are bloated

[rain berry]

fan of knives gives always 1 combo point no matter what?

[spice spire]

Unless you have seal fate

[slim hamlet]

required for aoe basically

[thorny pond]

always at least one*

[slim hamlet]

prob also st but 100% aoe

[rain berry]

oh okey

[cobalt hemlock]

playing rogue without seal fate has to be cursed as fuck

[slim hamlet]

aoe sin without seal fate

Must be illegal

[thorny pond]

Bring it back, watch us soarrrrr

[slim hamlet]

Mother of god

That

seems

good

[thorny pond]

it was pepegga during the dark times of legion

[gusty mirage]

that'd be so fucking broken rn

lmao

[slim hamlet]

The prio dmg in m+

x d

[thorny pond]

up every like 30seconds

[gusty mirage]

it'd be up like every 20s

with deathmark

[slim hamlet]

yeah think so to

50% uptime kb?

[thorny pond]

iirc it had an icd

[median beacon]

Give rogues 3 hands

So we can equip 3 daggers

[slim hamlet]

We already got monkeyhands

Daggers but longer range than 2 hand swords xd

[near valley]

no need for three hands, just put one in ur mouth. Zoro style.

[final star]

Assa rogues turning into warlocks I stg how tf u asking for buffs when u already pumping

[gusty mirage]

because I miss us

[final star]

[gusty mirage]

[final star]

[pine timber]

are are

[violet jackal]

druid specs will always have the most buttons i believe

[thorn crater]

ye ure not wrong

[thorny pond]

I feel bad now bc I cheated saying druid

[violet jackal]

with all these new talent changes demon hunter still can't fill 2 rows with buttons

[thorny pond]

the hunt 5 times

[near valley]

ngl ass is pretty enjoyable

[slim hamlet]

I like ass too

[light spear]

love ass

[slim hamlet]

Gives life and freedom

[near valley]

I just really enjoy the feel of ass

[slim hamlet]

It is fuel to your heart

Weakest ass enjoyer

[rich scaffold]

So its DM after exseng?

[slim hamlet]

Whispyr will come for you if you use it in dm yes

[violet jackal]

is that a promise 😉

[slim hamlet]

[ebon root]

Which spec is easier to get into atm and how good is it compared to the other? OL or Sin

[eager sorrel]

OL is way easier in AoE but way 'faster' then Sin with how energy works in both.

[ebon root]

Yeah my concern is I live in EU and play on NA servers, so 200 ping and OL APM might be too high to be competitive...

[cerulean nest]

are we all tauren enjoyers now?

[quasi finch]

anyone know any macros to do mouseover target for rupture/garrote? In two target cleave I'd like to not have to tab to other target to apply but just mouse over my plater on that enemy

I had one for warrior execute, "/cast [@mouseover, exists, harm, nodead] Execute; Execute", but doesn't seem to work for rogue

[eager sorrel]

2 target specifcally, just use a focus/target swap macro:

/target [@focus]
/focus [@lasttarget]

[ebon root]

I played sin in Legion pretty heavily; has it changed much?

[spice spire]

It changed specifically with this iteration

[ebon root]

How close to OL in each content is it atm (understanding shit changes)

[eager sorrel]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/2bq0vz

[eager sorrel]

Everyone will just be regurgitating that

[burnt star]

st = way ahead

m+ way behind

[ebon root]

Seem slike OL cleave/AOE way ahjead too

yeah

Fark

[burnt star]

sub is close to law

in every aspect

[eager sorrel]

Sin gives you a bit more control with IW, which definitely isn't 'low value' in early keys though.

Especially in pugs

[burnt star]

iw?

[eager sorrel]

Iron wire

[burnt star]

well.. low key = it doesnt matther what u play

its strong enough to be in any key until it matther bth

[ebon root]

I'm usually in the salmon color IO, not tippy top, but not low keys

[eager sorrel]

By low I mean every Dps global matters to actually time it

[ebon root]

oh

What about PvP; how's sin? Not a fan (don't shoot me) of sub really

[hollow river]

Looking decent

[ebon root]

Cool; I think I might just play as sin for now and swap to OL if it's needed after launch--the wowhead guide pretty decent literature?

[cobalt hemlock]

i know it doesnt matter at all just curious why are tauren so good for rogue? i thought their thing was beeing tanky 😛

[hollow river]

For pve yes

[fair current]

normal tauren do additional crit damage

[hollow river]

Don’t think they have an updated pvp guide yet

[fair current]

highmountain tauren have versa as a racial, that might be what ur thinking about for "tanky"

[cobalt hemlock]

nah dont tauren get like addition stamina or something

[thorn crater]

oh

is that why people ar ememeing about cow rogue?

[fair current]

thats not their dps racial

their dps racial is 2% (?) more crit damage

same as dwarf

they might have stamina on top of that, i havent looked at all their racials

[wide mesa]

They have extra crit effectiveness, increased stam and war stomp. Unironically, not the worst for a rogue.

[fair current]

probably one of the best dps racials for rogue, i know it and dwarf r best for outlaw now

by a wopping 0.2% or something

huge

[celest helm]

Assass will be the meta pvp spec

[ebon root]

Now to continue spamming the channel...anything to really do right now other than the world event stuff to buy the blue catch-up gear?

[eager sorrel]

Low-key depends how popular DID is in PvP. Having your entire go stopped by a racial is feel bad.

[eager sorrel]

Technically upgrades in specific dungeon queue > uldaman, 275 iirc

[wide mesa]

I've never understood people that go specific races for a class's damage like it contributes substantially. Utility on the other hand, dwarf's bleed racial or NE's shadowmeld (for other classes than rogue obv) or goblin jump for slower classes totally worth.

[prisma cypress]

when did "go" become a commonly used term in wow pvp

[eager sorrel]

Shadowmeld is still really good on rogue

[sonic schooner]

Meld is great in pvp and m+, and not gonna talk about how night elf is the best to mog 🙄

[cobalt hemlock]

thats why i just go human on almost any char i love the stun cleanse

[wide mesa]

But it's usefulness is definitely diminished given the rogue toolkit compared to a class without stealth or invis.

[fair current]

for sure most racials r so close it doesnt matter at all

at the most extreme end u have vulpera vs tauren probably where u might approach a 1.5% sim dps diff

i always look at utility racials more then dps ones

[eager sorrel]

Meld restealths are pretty good in PvP, with IC I would argue it's top tier for sin as well in m+

[wide mesa]

I'm unironically thinking about going tauren for warstomp on my rogue. lol

[prisma cypress]

i recently switched from zandalari to orc purely for aesthetics. no idea how they compare in dps

though i'm guessing orc might be okay since blood fury lines up with deathmark

[fair current]

zandalaris alright

paku is the best dps one

the passive crit proc

[wide mesa]

That's where you lose me because I also don't pvp so maybe in a pvper's mind it retains value given pvp's unique niches.

[eager sorrel]

Second this on the horde side, always feel like Im wanting for one AoE cc in m+

[prisma cypress]

yeah i used paku for years while i was ztroll

[fair current]

i honestly dont understand why the zandalari goblin glider is such a long cd

would it really be broken for them to have like a 3m goblin glider

😠

[prisma cypress]

my rogue is an engineer so the glider ability was sort of redundant

[fair current]

sure but its freeee (and flavorful)

riding a pterodactyl

[prisma cypress]

cloak glider is basically free

[fair current]

true ig theres not really any good cloak tinkers left

[eager sorrel]

Sure, but IC is going to be awkward AF if you are just standing around waiting for mobs to get grouped.

Rather be able to garrote from stealth, meld/vanish/dance(is this a Dps loss?) > IC

[royal lantern]

why would you NOT use it as the first ability anyway

people trying to minmax races again for situations that wont exist

[subtle tundra]

nooo raging first week

my shivs

nooooo

[dense cedar]

rage gaming

[celest helm]

Always been a thing

[royal lantern]

healer/tank issue

[subtle tundra]

all the more reason to play assa though. my execute will go hard

[eager sorrel]

Pulling 2+ packs together, you are just sitting on your thumb until they are grouped?

[subtle tundra]

you dont need them tightly grouped

[royal lantern]

then just pull normal and then vanish ic garrote?

^ aswell

the range is big

[dense cedar]

we complaining about fake stuff again?

[celest helm]

Assass mains bout to shine

[dense cedar]

Do Evokers have a soothe?

they better not

[royal lantern]

why would that be bad

[dense cedar]

i don't think the game needs more of them

[royal lantern]

[eager sorrel]

They bring the only AoE soothe

[verbal knot]

evoker shoothe is great

[dense cedar]

[lofty junco]

just got back after a 15 month break. how viable is sin in DF?

[subtle tundra]

[royal lantern]

if you ask like that, everything is always viable

[verbal knot]

great in raids , can be played in dungeons but outlaw will propably be the go to there but you can defo still play assa in dungeons and still do good

[misty holly]

Yer gonna want to go troll for Berserking. Snapshot that haste before hitting Exanguinate.

[eager sorrel]

Raids are just going to be 20 sin Raiders

[royal lantern]

broooo, gonna pay those 25€ for that 20more sim dps

it totally makes a real difference ingame i swear!!!!

[lofty junco]

so like before assa for raids and outlaw for m+/cleave/council fights?

[verbal knot]

yeah pretty much this

^

[eager sorrel]

Paid 20$ to not have to swim in DoS-Ardenwald here

[lofty junco]

[verbal knot]

although assa is still good in 2 targets

[royal lantern]

i mean, except that assa was the worst raiding rogue spec trought out SL

[oak sky]

Going male blood elf for the ugly buff

[subtle tundra]

assa in council will be better cause im good like that

and assa better for m+ cause im good like that

[lofty junco]

time to go back to oldschool rogue main

[verbal knot]

yes it was even though it saw some raid play

it didnt exist at all in m+ though

[royal lantern]

ye, but dont say stuff like "assa is raiding spec, outlaw m+ spec" cus that just not true AND stupid

when outlaw saw overall more raid gameplay then assa in the last expansion

[subtle tundra]

sub is pvp spec

poopie

[verbal knot]

but he asked about df though

no one is talking about shadowlands

[royal lantern]

and probs is the better overall raid spec for the first tier in DF aswell

all fights except 1 are aoe/cleave btw

and that 1 fight is the 2nd boss, aka a "pull 4times and its done" fight

[oak sky]

We were the kings of irrelevant .5 patches

[royal lantern]

assa did THE SAME DMG AS SUB after progress was over

[verbal knot]

assa is still good in cleave and it has the execute factor so that alone gets you a spot in the raid

[dense cedar]

Wonder if we're gonna get any of that tasty Trial of Valor tuning this expansion

[royal lantern]

except that raid cleave most of the time means "stuff needs to die fast" and assa cant do that @verbal knot

like, yes, assa has some decent long duration cleave

that doesnt help when adds spawn that need to die in the next 6sec

im NOT saying assa is bad

[dense cedar]

Tbh in a lot of cleave heavy fights, sin will still be useful for just leaving you on the boss's ass while the spam aoe classes go do their thing

[royal lantern]

gonna 1trick it for that tier, cus FUCK DF outlaw, but man, people jneed to think a bit more about encounters in general, and what cleave means

long duration cleave is rare

[verbal knot]

yes assa doesnt get value from targets dying fast but then again if they die fast why would you even bother

[night delta]

Sin has no tool for anything other than sustained dps in AoE and cleave, but it's still pretty okay at prolonged AoE and strong in priority / boss damage

[verbal knot]

like your job is still to pop on the boss

[royal lantern]

read what i said mate 😄

[lofty junco]

i just saw methods max video yesterday about all classes and assa did sound insane. its what brought me back

[verbal knot]

and still do great

outlaw wont get that much value from targets dying fast like assasination does in the execute

[royal lantern]

you mean the video where content creators/guide writers that are spec 1 tricks, made a meme tierlist, and our dear best femboi whispyr said S tier cus he likes DF assa except for 1 thign?^^

[royal lantern]

what the fuck are you talking about

[night delta]

my mobile discord bugged out, didn't mean to quote

[lofty junco]

yeah that one

[royal lantern]

it was a personal opinion list btw

not performance

[normal mist]

yo wtf 45 cd ic is nutz

[marble hemlock]

is that the same as the one where half the people speaking sandbagged/undersold the strength of their spec/class with some of them receiving buffs not one week after?

[royal lantern]

yes seli

that one

dh low A tier btw

[marble hemlock]

no WL spec above b tier btw

[spice spire]

Humble

[royal lantern]

litearlly only the hunter was "honest" and real with his opinions

[lofty junco]

i mean i was out of touch with wow, so i just looked for anything that could help

[night delta]

and out of all of them playing, the friggin rogue showed his hand

[marble hemlock]

thats cause rogues are the chad class

we get threatened with nerfs and our response is to say "bring it on"

[spice spire]

Tbh I thought BM was a bit low.

[thorn crater]

shouldnt have hidden how hard flying daggers nerf hit us

[marble hemlock]

while boomies whine on twitter about how their buffs still arent enough

[royal lantern]

boomies and whine on twitter goes hand in hand

[ebon root]

how important are covenant/legendaries? Just came back and super behind

[spice spire]

They leave in 4 days so not very

[royal lantern]

litearlly not even 1 week buddy

[marble hemlock]

theyll be outdated content in less than a week

[lofty junco]

so its not true when they said that wl is only good in prepatch?

[marble hemlock]

WL hasnt been bad in 14+ years

[ebon root]

Will "current content" (some keys and maybe some solo shuffle) require it?

[royal lantern]

warlock is always op for raiding

[lofty junco]

well publik was pretty honest about shadow as well

[spice spire]

No, lock has many viable options
Aff lock does take a nose dive at 70 from now tho

[royal lantern]

like, we never had a single raidtier since TBC where warlock was NOT in the top3 lol

[lofty junco]

nose dive?

[thorn crater]

he wasnt in EN legion

[marble hemlock]

obviously some things are only broken due to the raid affixes and stuff, but like, most of the sims and results weve seen so far, are to be taken with a mine of salt, at minimum

[thorn crater]

spriest mage rogue

[eager sorrel]

Is the lock discord the last to finish up APL's and stuff? Always feels like it

[royal lantern]

they litearlly have the most updated APL behind a patreon paywall mate

[spice spire]

Uh it falls off.
English isn’t primary language I assume? (Asking in case I need to use less idioms when explaining )

[marble hemlock]

honest recommendation? play what you enjoy. theres no point in playing something you dislike, balance will be a mess like it always is during the start of an expansion, and anyone who seriously considers giving a prediction as to which spec is gonna be "good" or "bad" in DF needs to have their head checked

[royal lantern]

not even joking

[subtle tundra]

im bad so i need to play whats the best to not be last on meters

[spice spire]

I thought the patreon was hunter

[royal lantern]

you mean DF, but yes

[lofty junco]

yeah. I'M a dirty german

[marble hemlock]

thanks

[ebon bramble]

i think he means outlaw has no burst...i think 🤔

[verbal knot]

thats what everyone wants to see but it sucks to want to play a spec that does 10% less than the other specs of your class eitherway

like sub

[marble hemlock]

unlucky

[spice spire]

We have many Germans here, no worries! But yeah affliction is very good now, but much less good at 70. But other specs are better at 70 kind of deal

[royal lantern]

i think more like, its because assa gains energy when a target with rupture dies....and thats his "cleave value when the target dies fast" but like, why would you rupture a target that dies in 6sec anyway lol, wasted energy and cp

[verbal knot]

cause i wanna play sub but i also want to get in the raid and not be benched

[ebon bramble]

just play DH

no downside

[spice spire]

But yes, less idioms

[spice spire]

Fel hammer

Checkmate buddy

[royal lantern]

reminder that the sims are 5min no movment with best trinkets, max ilvl and 4set

and not how 99%of real progress raiding looks like

[marble hemlock]

95% of the people in here do not have to worry about their class being 10% worse than someone elses, because they dont raid at a level where it would actually matter.

[royal lantern]

^

[lofty junco]

ah nono i have a few things i was considering as a alt, but after seeing the video i did go from

Main: Shadow
alt: wl/Rogue/druid

to

rogue main
druid alt

[royal lantern]

spec choice really only matters if you are, like dunno, trying to go for HoF i gues

[ebon root]

I'm torn between feral/rogue as main, leaning rogue atm

[marble hemlock]

not even then

[royal lantern]

would even say, more like top20 tbh

[spice spire]

Why drop shadow?

[lofty junco]

cause shadow is a fucking mess atm

[marble hemlock]

being a good raider has about 10% to do with what class you play, and 90% with softskills that are completely unrelated to what class you play

[royal lantern]

unless a spec is REALLY undertuned, like assa during SL launch

[verbal knot]

Yes that might be true but what i said applies to people that raid on a higher level as well.What you are saying is the correct thing that should be happening in the game but a 10% is too big to be playing what you like.

[marble hemlock]

but people wanna focus on that 10%

instead of improving the other 90%

which would then translate to whatever class they play if they choose to switch mains

[royal lantern]

just look at the daily 30x racial questions

🙂

people really look at the game

and think

"you know, playing another race is going to make a difference"

[celest helm]

Literally people play meta specs poorly instead of playing a non meta spec well