assassination

[balmy condor]

But like okay

[main solar]

impromptu stream?

[balmy condor]

Hear me out

I’m at work no stream

But think about this

We don’t sync vanish and dm right

[sand elm]

yeh

[royal lantern]

yes

[balmy condor]

But if you pre-exsang dm

The garrote runs out earlier

So you vanish earlier

[sand elm]

exactly

[balmy condor]

So you get more vanish gar

So if we can find some tech that lets us vanish dm together (that’s the hard part)

then exsang doesn’t get the timing benefit

[sand elm]

[balmy condor]

So any logic that syncs vanish and dm

Automatically also hurts exsang in the process

[sand elm]

if i understand then, the points of interest are the duration increase of imp gar given from exsang and the extra duration of vanishing early

[balmy condor]

Which would also explain why we don’t sync exsang to anything either

It’s purpose isn’t energy or Burst

It’s the timing

[sand elm]

well i guess something else to consider into it would be whatever talent would replace exsang as well

[balmy condor]

that's a fairly easy one

you're always missing at least one of the following: ttb/bs/ss/ip:2

well I was going to finish the CT logic at work

but I think this is probably bigger importance

[sand elm]

haha

[balmy condor]

back to the mines with my ass

[nocturne current]

https://tenor.com/view/send-energy-sending-healing-dragon-ball-spirit-bomb-gif-16443313

[sand elm]

im both happy i could help trigger an idea and sorry at the same time lol

[balmy condor]

Nah we love ideas

Ideas good

[royal lantern]

do it whispr

kill exsang

we belive in you

you are the protagonist now

[balmy condor]

I think my old testing was focusing on the sync for burst too much

[nocturne current]

Haha. I love the "less buttons, good" feeling of this.

[sand elm]

itd certainly make things easier if we are able to just sync them

[sand elm]

ss is shrouded right?

[royal lantern]

yes

[main solar]

some more buttons good, but we probably have 1 or 2 too many imo. But its exceptionally bad if they all need to be used together and in a specific order. But use on CD and forget is pretty boring too

[balmy condor]

abbreviations are hard sorry

[sand elm]

np. i just havent learned all the talents by name yet

so the existing build that was being simmed was using exsang and didnt use shrouded?

[main solar]

You think Imp poisons and Fatal Concoction are under tuned atm, or is it just up against too many other good options?

[sand elm]

curious as i wouldve thought 15% gar damage would be part of the main build. the 2 combo points from stealth would also help with dm/v sync

[main solar]

I think SS is just too deep in the tree and up against other big talents is the problem

it's not bad, just hard to find points for it

[sand elm]

well we could have it instead of exsang if we can figure out whispyrs logic

[main solar]

yeah

I think it's up there as one of the top alternatives

[sand elm]

i guess the downside of losing exsang is if u dont use it, and use vanish synced, u dont get a full DM duration of imp garrote

so we'd need to find something that suplements and replaces that loss during the DM window

[main solar]

is that really a loss though?

[sand elm]

well with exsang unsynced u have the full DM window as improved gar as u use vanish late

[main solar]

less bursty probably

[sand elm]

and if u sync them then ull be refreshing imp gar into a normal gar

so less duration for imp gar to be ticking

but, least in my experience by syncing them, u refresh imp gar with only ~2s left on deathmark

so it cant be much thats lost

[main solar]

The idea is you have an overall gain somewhere else though no? Not like we need to pack stuff into deathmark

[sand elm]

yeah thats exactly it. we need to find something that gives us that damage back we'd lose from the lower duration imp gar during dm

i guess it doesnt NEED to be something that fits in the DM window so long as it gives back damage overall

[main solar]

Are you just saying that's the gain whispyr would need to find somewhere in order for exsang to be dead?

[sand elm]

im not as knowledgable with the maths as he is but it seems like a logical deduction to me

[main solar]

gotcha

[sand elm]

just thinking about whats lost changing from un synced to synced

and the losses are: the lower duration on imp gar that exsang would give us + lower imp gar duration inside the dm window as u refresh imp into normal at ~2s remaining

so if we were to sync, we'd need to make that up somehow

[main solar]

what if we had a talent that gave us random mini deathmark procs? Then you couldnt sync them even if you tried! 🙃

[sand elm]

ha

part of me wants to say theres some fuckery that can be done with combo point generation from shroud meaning u can envenom more as u wouldnt need to mutilate as much. but thats just a stab in the dark with no real evidence

or even ttk adding up more envenom procs over time

[main solar]

double amplifying poison during deathmark back on the menu?

[balmy condor]

idk how else to transfer things from my teamviewer soz

[sand elm]

its fine, im just snowballing ideas to see if anything sticks or it gives anyone some theories

[balmy condor]

it didn't copy the whole thing

kill me

[sand elm]

lol

[main solar]

I wish there was a good way to DM yourself on disc

[marble hemlock]

What's your preferred method of murder?

[main solar]

Exsanguinate

[somber fractal]

thats just asking for blood of the assassinated back basically. which i would be down with

[marble hemlock]

[balmy condor]

maybe I just need to pastebin

and then link the pastebin in discord

and then grab the link on my laptop

[sand elm]

not a bad idea

[balmy condor]

god

what a hassle

[marble hemlock]

Just memorize it and then write it from memory on laptop

[balmy condor]

aight

that should work now

time to get back to work killing exsang

[sand elm]

[marble hemlock]

Make it bleed

[sand elm]

good luck

[marble hemlock]

Slowly

[sand elm]

will try and come up with any ideas as well that might help

the talents in that sim are an IC build if thats intentional

[balmy condor]

also my CT logic has improved CT in single target my bad

it's not good enough to run

but

ya know

[balmy condor]

yeah, that was the stuff I was doing on stream earlier

[sand elm]

gotcha

[balmy condor]

I just need the lines because it's like a gain everywhere except 2/3 target 5 min

so

don't want to try to use logic on worse APL

[main solar]

rework CT 🙃

[drifting cloud]

do you think this channel will be as empty in a month than it was in sl

[sand elm]

CT ST is a gain?

curious

[main solar]

the next battle after killing exsang

[balmy condor]

yeah it's always been, just isn't worth talenting into for single target

but CT on a cast for cast basis

kinda cranking

[sand elm]

hm

im assuming uve already taken CT in DM into account?

im guessing it also duplicates

[balmy condor]

doesn't get duped

[sand elm]

really?

[balmy condor]

gar rup and poisons

[sand elm]

would certainly make it more viable if it did lol

but fair enough

[balmy condor]

but yeah this is damage per execute in single target

[main solar]

It specifically says "Garrote, Rupture, and Lethal Poisons" yeah

[balmy condor]

and that's with amp poison and poison bomb

[sand elm]

so basically equal to envenom

[balmy condor]

it's 41k to 40k

but if its that close, it's not worth talenting into

the issue occurs when you don't take amp, or poison bomb

cause then it gets hairy

not taking either puts CT ahead of envenom a decent chunk

not enough to make it worth talenting into

but enough to scare you

[nocturne current]

I thought CT would amp up dramatically everything else because of lethal dose.

[sand elm]

poison bomb has an interaction with envenom?

[balmy condor]

well since poison bomb procs off of envenom exclusively

you have to count poison bomb damage as envenom damage kinda

[sand elm]

touche. i misread the tooltip

fair enough

[balmy condor]

and the sim lumps them together for DPE calculations

[sand elm]

are the extra poison applications counted seperately?

[balmy condor]

I don't think those are accounted for

now that I think about it, PB might not be accounted either because it's a different effect

that just isn't counted for DPE

idk

its weird

point is

CT is quite good

[sand elm]

just not enough to worth talenting it yet

[balmy condor]

yeah

I think we're safe from CT single target for a while

[nocturne current]

CT affects Lethal Dose as a bleed counter?

[sand elm]

i guess that rules out CT as a potential help in the exsang issue then

[balmy condor]

yes

[sand elm]

do u have the code for the ST talents uve been simming with?

[balmy condor]

as does sbs, kingsbane, sepsis, gar, rup, every lethal and non-lethal poison

[balmy condor]

nah I'm making one right now

[sand elm]

okies

[nocturne current]

And Doomblade I s'pose.

[sand elm]

ud think

[nocturne current]

No way 😮

[balmy condor]

it does

[sand elm]

but considering both CT and kingsbane arent duplicated its weird what they consider "bleeds" and "poisons" for certain talents

[balmy condor]

forgot about doomblade

[sand elm]

wish itd be more consistent

[main solar]

well deathmark doesnt say bleeds, it says garrote and rupture specifically

[sand elm]

fair point

[main solar]

the terminology of poisons/lethal poisons/weapon poisons has always been all over the place though

[nocturne current]

Yeah but I guess dose increases deathmark damage indirectly through counter increase. Not sure about specific numbers tho.

[sand elm]

hmm its limiting having only the point in exsang to move around

unless theres somewhere better for the improved poisons talents to go

[main solar]

Does lethal dose even count the duplicated stuff? Could have sworn it was unique effects

[balmy condor]

yes it does

[main solar]

neat

[nocturne current]

I really thought Doomblade via Lethal Dose would outdamage venom rush

Or even CT

[sand elm]

awesome ty

[balmy condor]

dropping shrouded for CT is -2.8% so we're chilling

problem is that taking TTB in place of exsang is -2.9%

so

not chilling

[sand elm]

im guessing the logic in the sim is still using unsynced?

[balmy condor]

CT is -3.2% on kingsbane builds

and uh

I don't want to mention how much exsang is (||it's -4.7%||)

:)

[sand elm]

lol

[balmy condor]

yeah it's the current best logic which is unsynced

okey...... now to uh

find 3% worth of gains for things that aren't exsang

should be free, right

[sand elm]

well if the logic we're going for was to see if sync is possible. thatll be a starting point

[balmy condor]

my first couple attempts haven't even born fruit

[sand elm]

seems like unsynced exsang is the high contender for now

[balmy condor]

it's so fucking strong

[main solar]

but my keybinds

[thorn crater]

I’m confused again. You say it’s not worth running but it’s a gain. What does “not worth” mean. Is it a convenience thing or a drop necessary talents for it thing (regarding CT)

[balmy condor]

well you need to talent into CT

[main solar]

if you were talented into CT, you'd use it in ST

but in pure ST, you shouldnt talent into it

[balmy condor]

yeah

taking the talent isn't worth it

but if you were talenting into it

[thorn crater]

Ye I mean does it hinder anything having CT in ST? Do u lose anything vital?

[balmy condor]

you use it in single target

[balmy condor]

1 talent point

[thorn crater]

Bruh

Where do you take it from

[balmy condor]

^

[thorn crater]

Hm

So if u take it contends with envenom dmg but it’s still an overall loss cause u drop shrouded?

[balmy condor]

correct

[thorn crater]

Ok

[balmy condor]

the talent itself isn't strong enough to compete with other talents

[thorn crater]

But there is only one real ST fight

[balmy condor]

but the ability is strong enough to be worth using

[thorn crater]

So technically having it isn’t bad

[dusk summit]

So Assa rogues really arent changing in terms of tier placement?

[thorn crater]

Though no shrouded feels uff in fights that start with more than one unit

[balmy condor]

idk what this even means

tier like the tokens from the raid?

idk what we share with anymore

but we did change

[dusk summit]

no, like in terms or dmg/dps out put we didnt really gain much

[balmy condor]

huh?

didn't gain much from what

[dusk summit]

like it looks like we are still bottom of the pack for M+ and riad

raid*

[balmy condor]

well in prepatch yeah of course

[dusk summit]

DPS wise.

[balmy condor]

prepatch is a shit show

[sand elm]

we're not bottom for raids at 70

thats held by mm hunter quite strongly i think

[balmy condor]

you're actually better off just closing your eyes and saying random numbers

than comparing warcraftlogs right now

[sand elm]

just so i 100% understand it, what are the tangible dps gains that exsang gives

[balmy condor]

beats the fuck out of me man

it's a couple extra ticks of gar/rup and some energy

and that's bout it

[dusk summit]

ahh ok then I was scared there that we were already screwed.

[sand elm]

so basically a slightly increased duration on rupture and gar

with some minute energy gains

or equal to

[dusk summit]

also Im using dashing scoundrel cause I had it. Im assuming it works?

[sand elm]

should do

[nocturne current]

I mean, it's quite a beefy buff on DM.

[balmy condor]

every exsang cast is worth half a max pandemic normal garrote and rupture, plus double their normal energy over that same time

[sand elm]

right. so thats what we need to find a replacement for in order to get rid of exsang. something that gives us equal or higher benefit than that

[balmy condor]

correct

and I don't think that exists

[sand elm]

cool. on the same page now

[balmy condor]

but right now I'm struggling to make deathmark cast

[sand elm]

lol

[balmy condor]

sync logic is always "hey sync up"

and the sim goes "yeah well now I don't want to"

and then just doesn't cast it at all

and you have to coax it back into it

[nocturne current]

I really thought CT would beat venom rush via lethal dose, specially with exsanguinate.

[balmy condor]

oh no god

that's cope

venom rush is so much energy

CT is barely worth the combo points

so you're comparing basically 2% on lethal dose

versus just venom rush

and venom rush will stomp 2% on lethal dose every day of the week for all 3 meals

2% on lethal dose is like.... 1.5%? total dps

venom rush is easily twice that

[sand elm]

well its basically what 15%? energy saved on mutilate and with blindside its a 7 energy net positive

[balmy condor]

yeah

it cranks

venom rush 830 energy over 5 min

holy

[sand elm]

wow

[balmy condor]

dashing is like 480 with dtb

and tea is around 550-570

[sand elm]

so we're basically energy fiends with those talents

[balmy condor]

I mean yeh

[nocturne current]

Lethal dose is that low? I thought it would scale much higher the more counters you threw at it, specially with mastery.

[balmy condor]

[sand elm]

[balmy condor]

I mean you're just adding CT

that's a flat 2% on top of whatever you would have normally

lethal dose could be 10000000000%

but adding CT would just be 10000000002%

so you can remove that

and just isolate the 2%

adding 1 bleed to the effect doesn't tip the needle

[nocturne current]

Hum not exactly 2% no? It should scale garrote inside exsanguinate.

[balmy condor]

aight lets count

gar, rup, sbs, deadly, amp, doomblade, deathmark, deathmark gar, deathmark rup, deathmark deadly, deathmark amp

that's all your lethal dose stuff

so adding all that up

2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2+2

so you're at 22% on lethal dose

now you talent CT

[nocturne current]

22% yeah.

[balmy condor]

add it on top

now you're at 24%

that's 2%

[nocturne current]

24% yea.

[dusk summit]

Does this apply to M+ aoe as well?

[balmy condor]

no of course not

[sand elm]

talking about ST

[dusk summit]

gotcha

[balmy condor]

22% lethal dose to 24% lethal dose

is a very small gain

[sand elm]

CT is pretty sick in dungeons so go for it

[balmy condor]

and lethal dose doesn't count for all damage right

it's only about 75% of our damage-ish

so that 2% isn't a full 2%,

it's closer to 1.5% overall dps

and if we just for the sake of argument say CT and envenom do the same damage on cast

[nocturne current]

I mean but 22% to 24% exsanguinated with mark. It's quite a scale those 2%..

[balmy condor]

it would be better to use CT, to get the 1.5% overall dps from lethal

[nocturne current]

• scales mastery.

[balmy condor]

I don't know how to explain this to you

[nocturne current]

Nah I get it, I get it.

[sand elm]

envenom just gives a general higher contribution than that 1.5% buff to all the poisons/bleeds

[balmy condor]

22% to 24% exsanguinated with mark

is still 22% to 24%

maybe during exsang mark, now you're doing 90% of your damage as bleed/poison

instead of 75%

so I'll give it to you

during that time

maybe it's not 1.5%

maybe it's 1.8%

but you can't turn 2% into more than 2%

if every single point of damage you do during exsang mark is affected by lethal dose

you're at 2% buff

venom rush is still like 3.8%

you can be in burst or out of burst or flip and twist it however you want

adding CT will never give you more than 2% on lethal dose

and venom rush is closer to 4%

technically since lethal dose is additive with itself, you're never actually getting 2% from adding an effect

but that's semantics

[echo cargo]

O_o

[balmy condor]

going from 22->24 on lethal dose would actually be 1.64% if all your damage is affected

[nocturne current]

But I guess it depends on secondary stats no? I suppose those 2% gain in value the more mastery you have no?

Because at one point all that energy will just get translated into Enevenoms if everything is applied, but now thinking about it high head, that's a lot of envenoms...

[sand elm]

trying out various things with the unsycned sim and closest i can get is 1.7k dps behind exsang so far

[balmy condor]

sure, if you do 75% of your damage in "lethal dose affected damage", and the 2% is 1.5%, and you then gain a bunch of mastery, you would pull that 1.5% up again since a larger portion is affected now

[drifting cloud]

bro you need to stop talking deep tc with a guy that didnt know dots can crit a week ago

my brain is melting

[sand elm]

lol

[balmy condor]

it ain't even deep tc

this is just basic math

[timid cloud]

[balmy condor]

you do 100 damage, now you do 22% more

[timid cloud]

Dots….can CRIT?

[balmy condor]

you do 100 damage, now you do 24% more

122 damage to 124 damage is a gain of 1.64%

that talent point therefore (if we super dumb it down), is 1.64%

venom rush takes you from 122 to 126.6

therefore venom rush is closer to 4%

126.6 > 124

[timid cloud]

My head hurts from all of this math.

[drifting cloud]

alot of text for something that isnt close at all in the end I guess

[sand elm]

did u manage to get sync DM working whispyr?

or it still being fucky

[balmy condor]

I've been busy explaining why 4% is more than 2%

[sand elm]

lol

[ember mural]

[nocturne current]

No, I get what Whisp is saying from start. I was just wondering how much mastery would actually be needed for that 4% gain to actually offset some other talent. Since theortically that stat would put more value in the bleed acceleration tick mechanic.

[balmy condor]

I don't quite get what that means

are we still talking about CT vs venom rush

[nocturne current]

No no, forget venom rush was a bad example.

[sand elm]

i think i get what ur going for

[nocturne current]

But the 100, varies with depending how much mastery you get.

That was my point.

That's all.

[drifting cloud]

dont worry about mastery, its been bad or mediocre at best for a while now, chance that we will ever stack it are basically 0

[balmy condor]

aight now you're the dumbass bucko

[drifting cloud]

in st?

[balmy condor]

we stack crit mast in dragonflight

and it ain't close

[drifting cloud]

thats great but its still not stacking 1 stat

[balmy condor]

good thing gear comes with 2 stats then

[drifting cloud]

I guess its more of a relic time from before they gave us drs on stats

[nocturne current]

Because, in theory, the more mastery, the more value it adds to the each lethal dose counter by increasing the base of what's to be multiplied. But there's no way for me to know if that actually offsets something at a certain level, only with a sim.

[drifting cloud]

anyways whispyr you know were playing outlaw in cleave raid anyways

since you cant even sit now because of atrophic

or whatever the fuck its even called

[balmy condor]

I mean no

yes

but not really

[sand elm]

if the base damage is higher because of mastery, then the 2% value gets bigger as u get more mastery

[balmy condor]

you can do X damage, lethal dose is always going to be 22% of it

[sand elm]

i think is what theyre going for

[nocturne current]

Yeah that's what I meant, what liana said.

[balmy condor]

yes

but it never surpasses 2%

it approaches 2%

[nocturne current]

Yeah ofcourse.

[drifting cloud]

secret mastery hack

[nocturne current]

I was just modifying the base value.

[balmy condor]

venom rush also benefits from mastery though, as fox said earlier since it's getting put back into envenoms

[sand elm]

i dont think they were disputing getting more than 2%, more asking what value of mastery would make that 2% become tangible. because 2% of 200 is bigger than 2% of 100 (arbitrary numbers)

[nocturne current]

I was just wondering was, if at a certain level of base, the multiplier (exsang + mark) would actually offset those envenoms, but probably no.

[balmy condor]

oh I see

[sand elm]

could be any value of x

[balmy condor]

probably thousands of %

like

[sand elm]

my guess wouldve been a lot

[balmy condor]

astronomically high

[sand elm]

as its still only 2%

[nocturne current]

And I probably picked the wrong talent (Venom Rush) to make a comparison.

[echo cargo]

any other rogues just big mega stupid like me and don't understand any of this

C:

[sand elm]

i doubt we'd be able to get a level of mastery that high even stacking it with end of expansion gear

[drifting cloud]

you dont have to understand it, just press buttons in correct order

[nocturne current]

Thistle Tea.

Haha.

[sand elm]

just cos u dont get the math stuff doesnt make u stupid

[balmy condor]

it's my job to turn it into something you do understand, I wouldn't stress

[sand elm]

[balmy condor]

they pay me good money to make it understandable

[echo cargo]

Only good at hitting buttons and being dad, everything else is negligible 😦

[balmy condor]

whys it a flower

[drifting cloud]

its from lost ark

[sand elm]

its from the lost ark discord cos i dont have any other version of the despair face

[balmy condor]

why is the lost ark despair a flower

[sand elm]

[balmy condor]

the fuck is a mokoko

[sand elm]

its a mokoko. like a seed thing

[drifting cloud]

https://tenor.com/view/mokoko-gif-25385916

[sand elm]

[oak sky]

:mokocope:

[faint harness]

[balmy condor]

aight lost ark got a flower seed thing that's cute and people went crazy

and made everything flower

got it

[sand elm]

[balmy condor]

good lore

[drifting cloud]

yeah its the meta emote to spam ingame

[sand elm]

does fatal concoction increase all poison damage? or just deadly/instant/amp

[balmy condor]

weapon poison

so deadly/instant/amp

and WOUND POISON

THE BEST

[sand elm]

lol

so not VV and poison bomb then

[balmy condor]

nop

[sand elm]

bah

the only thing coming to mind that could combat exsang is something that boosts poisons instead

[nocturne current]

I'm curious to see what would be a build just stacking mastery like crazy, all Lethal Dose counters and seeing what would be the max burst possible with the highest base multiplied possible from DM+EX.

Which is interesting because it would likely be completely different build for burst and for sustained.

[sand elm]

the only thing keeping exsang up is the extra ticks of garrote and everything that affects garrote

[sand elm]

itd probably be ok in dungeons as ud be spamming CT anyway + IC

but as whispyr said, we`ll be stacking crit mastery anyways at 70

so ull likely get to see what ur asking about in dungeons at the very least

just not on ST with our levels of mastery

[balmy condor]

just cast dm man

[sand elm]

still not playing ball

[balmy condor]

now I got some whack ass edge case

pulling down my minimum

hate my life

[sand elm]

ive been trying to get a clearer picture of what we need to look for to get sync to work

[balmy condor]

it only happens once every 5 or 6 pulls

which means I just gotta keep simming the same thing

over and over

until I get a sample where it happens

[sand elm]

whats the edge case?

[balmy condor]

[nocturne current]

Edge case good or bad 😄

[balmy condor]

bad

[nocturne current]

Haha

[balmy condor]

its missing a cast somewhere

just don't know where or why

[sand elm]

so theyre sims of a synced sim but sometimes dm just doesnt cast in random attempts?

[balmy condor]

yeah there's some timing where it doesn't trigger

[sand elm]

curious

[balmy condor]

and idk what the timing is an issue for

[sand elm]

thats interesting tho cos those numbers are higher than the unsynced exsang ones i was getting

so u must be on the right track somewhere

[balmy condor]

how much higher

[sand elm]

best i got was 58,308

[balmy condor]

cause my profile is running my custom APL and has a scaled ilvl

[sand elm]

using the sim u shared in pastebin

i just messed with the talents a bit

[balmy condor]

oh

wait you're getting 58,308 without exsang?

[sand elm]

with. i wish it was without

[balmy condor]

oh

I see

[sand elm]

best i got without was just over 56k

about 1.7k lower

[balmy condor]

yeah I'm at 59,8 without and 57,8 with

it's no gud

i mean

otherway around

with/without

[sand elm]

1k margin is a lot more managable at least

[nocturne current]

Did you guys delete the pastebin posted here before?

[sand elm]

https://pastebin.com/uPkMwX9f

[balmy condor]

that's super experimental btw

[sand elm]

ofc

[balmy condor]

don't take that pastebin as gospel for anything

[sand elm]

ull need to change the talents on it tho cos theyre set to an IC build

[nocturne current]

No no all good, just wanted to see what was in the tree.

[balmy condor]

the tree is nonsense

[sand elm]

the only thing that comes to mind is the cumulative extra ticks of garrote and rupture throughout all add up to more damage than anything else we could pick

cos using synced its possible to have imp gar up the entire dm window

[balmy condor]

tree in that pastebin is legit just for logic testing

[sand elm]

so the damage has to come from the bonus ticks it gives

and cos the rest of the tree is pretty locked in with blindside, dtb and sbs it limits our options

[drifting cloud]

what ilvl is that sim whispyr

[balmy condor]

408

[drifting cloud]

thats heroic right

[balmy condor]

idfk

[sand elm]

408 is mid heroic

so middle wing bosses

411 is end bosses

[balmy condor]

sounds legit to me

ilvl is just all over the place

I can't remember anything

[drifting cloud]

https://i.imgur.com/FBRXpJ7.png this picture helps I just had to find it

[balmy condor]

I mean you say it helps

but if you need a spreadsheet to explain ilvl drops

it's already fucked

[sand elm]

M+ did that years ago already lol

[drifting cloud]

just smoothes out the curve I guess

[balmy condor]

yeah but m+ you kinda only care for the max end of chest and the max vault

that's not too bad

[drifting cloud]

unless those unique items are trinkets

then we riot

[balmy condor]

but now it's like every boss is a certain ilvl but also has an item on it that's higher than the ilvl of that boss

[drifting cloud]

Id assume it will also reflect in the balance of the bosses, or well I guess we will see

early mythic might now be super pushover instead of just the usual first free loot

[sand elm]

btw whispyr was that 59k with exsang?

[balmy condor]

yes

I can't even get syncing to be a gain without exsang

[sand elm]

well if we're stuck with exsang least syncing is easier rotationally than not lol

[balmy condor]

it's close though

[sand elm]

if its close enough to not matter, id take syncing over not syncing

[balmy condor]

but if I put exsang back in

it's like

-1.5%

cause then it waits for exsang too

cause then it's close enough

[sand elm]

so that 57 is synced without exsang

[balmy condor]

to trigger the exsang conditional

super cringe

yeah that screenshot is ttb instead of exsang

[sand elm]

honestly im a little stumped as well. we just dont have enough flexibility to get rid of it in 1 point

once u understand where its damage comes from, its hard to see where else we can replace it

[balmy condor]

ttb is the best point in its place

but it's rough

[sand elm]

yeh even then its still not great

[balmy condor]

honestly could buff ttb pretty hard

it's technically competing with blindside right

blindside blows it out of the water

[sand elm]

blindside is just stupid strong

free 2 combo points and 7 energy when it procs

and can proc off itself

[balmy condor]

okay well

I got dm and vanish synced perfectly

and it's neutral

now what

[sand elm]

yay

[balmy condor]

where's my gain

gonna try some dumb shit brb

[sand elm]

good luck

[balmy condor]

wait a minute

[sand elm]

[nocturne current]

[sand elm]

looks like it wasnt so dumb if it gave an increase

[balmy condor]

oh

it's dumb

[nocturne current]

Haha

[sand elm]

lol

what was it u changed?

[drifting cloud]

its 0.2%, you probably dont wanna know if its named dumb shit

[balmy condor]

take a guess

[sand elm]

u didnt do a 2nd garrote after snd

and refreshed it after dm was applied with vanish 2s after

[nocturne current]

Thistle Tea

[spice spire]

Seven second garrote

[sand elm]

clipping the garrote gained a dps increase. thats curious

well outside of pandemic window

previously doing gar snd gar it was such a short time that clipping wouldnt have really done anything. but 7s later should have but it didnt, or at least not as much as expected

[balmy condor]

[sand elm]

right its 5am here i should go to sleep

good luck on the rest whispyr, sorry i couldnt be more help

[balmy condor]

its oaky

this one is real tricky

[sand elm]

[nocturne current]

Can you send me the talent string you're using Whisp?

[balmy condor]

BMQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINJSCiElEAAAAAAAJAkkAAAAAAAQQaOQJJkkkkWSikkQCRCB

[main solar]

perhaps we'll be blessed with some last minute tuning that ends up killing exsang

[balmy condor]

that's probably a better hope than whatever I'm doing

[main solar]

maybe if Realz had to do all the exsang sim work he'd just end up killing the talent off instead 😛

[somber fractal]

are these sims just mathematical cope?

[balmy condor]

another day another CT logic dslice sim sorry pb optimization sim sorry exsang sim

[somber fractal]

didn't realz say he pretends the talent doesnt exist? isnt it pretty telling when a dev openly admits it's cringe

[balmy condor]

I've done more time in raidbots than my actual job this week

keeping myself sane

[main solar]

I'm pretty sure he was memeing

[balmy condor]

yeh

[somber fractal]

you think he unironically thinks it's a good talent

[balmy condor]

I think he finds it interesting enough of a gameplay decision to have included it on the talent tree for 10.0

anything else is speculation

[drifting cloud]

would be weird if it was absent all together

[spice spire]

Bro?

[drifting cloud]

its just annoying thats its decent

[somber fractal]

i think changing deathmark to duplicate bleeds on use created the unintended side effect of exsang being good for snapshotting

[balmy condor]

except that's not how we use exsang

so

that argument makes no sense

[somber fractal]

in the opener it is

[balmy condor]

okay and

what about the other 5/6 casts

[somber fractal]

thats my point

[hollow river]

that's dedication to the craft right there

[balmy condor]

your point is that it's 4% better than any alternative because of 1/6 of the casts happening during opener

[somber fractal]

im saying i dont like the opener

[balmy condor]

okay

so why didn't you say that

instead of "created the unintended side effect of exsang being good for snapshotting"

[somber fractal]

so you're mad cause i didn't add "IN THE OPENER" to the end of that statment

got it

[balmy condor]

I'm not mad

I'm trying to understand why you would say it's good for something it isn't

[hollow river]

[nocturne current]

What's the target so far with Exsanguinate?

[hollow river]

wdym the target

[nocturne current]

58.something?

[balmy condor]

wdym

[main solar]

Hope you like Exsanguinate is the target

[balmy condor]

like maxed out balls to the wall sim?

[nocturne current]

Yea

[balmy condor]

I'm not able to break past around 59,850

[vernal adder]

What ilvl is that

[drifting cloud]

press N and outlaw

[hollow river]

and is that with mythic ilvl gear?

[main solar]

I'm less interested in an actual number and more our relative position compared to everyone else

[drifting cloud]

its heroic gear

mid heroic even

[balmy condor]

its 408

[somber fractal]

behind outlaw ST and way behind outlaw cleave

[drifting cloud]

you wont know that because half the specs dont have active tcs

[balmy condor]

well

[hollow river]

don't most specs have active tcs?

[balmy condor]

I can tell you its relative position compared to the other two rogue specs

[main solar]

trash can? 😦

[balmy condor]

not really but a comfortable 3rd

[hollow river]

or do they just not have their own Kojis

[balmy condor]

they have TC's

but some are better than others

[main solar]

rogue TC always been top tier

[nocturne current]

A whole 61 improvement.

[balmy condor]

with exsang?

[nocturne current]

Without.

[balmy condor]

oh

I broke 58 without

[drifting cloud]

whats the actual number sir please mercy

[balmy condor]

bout 5% behind sub and 10% behind outlaw

whats the logic you used?

to get 61

[nocturne current]

I ditched SS and cut to the chase

[balmy condor]

[nocturne current]

For fatal and poisons

[oak sky]

ditching cttc means you hate fun

[balmy condor]

you ditched cttc and ss

[drifting cloud]

"cttc isnt even good, 200 dps max" - whispyr, 2021

[balmy condor]

for fatal?

and that was a gain?

[nocturne current]

BMQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAINJJBSSUSAAAAAAAkAQSCAAAAAAABp5AlkQSSSaJJikgQkQA

I was surprised too.

[main solar]

uh oh

[balmy condor]

[drifting cloud]

isnt playing this spec hating fun

[balmy condor]

that doesn't make much sense to me

[oak sky]

well right now yeah

ryler

[balmy condor]

well

guess it's back to top gear with me

to see what I missed

[somber fractal]

yeah i think this is my least favorite iteration of sin

[hollow river]

[drifting cloud]

dont worry agreon we can play outlaw and cope together its only temporary

[vernal adder]

Yes,temporary

[faint harness]

Apparently sims have been missing 5% crit from rogue passive so maybe that is bigger for some spec over the other?

[balmy condor]

nah that shouldn't matter

[drifting cloud]

easy 0.1% gain

[faint harness]

Also outlaw got indirectly buffed by the fth bugfix so

We doomed

[drifting cloud]

push how many bosses did your prog otl this xpac

[faint harness]

3

[drifting cloud]

slg, pantheon and lords?

[faint harness]

Hmm i guess prog is the wrong word, first kill

I rode the bench on pantheon and lords

[drifting cloud]

what am I missing, been a long xpac

[faint harness]

Well its mainly slg

[drifting cloud]

or well were those correct 3 you just werent in on guilds first kill ig

[faint harness]

Yes

No other reason to play outlaw really

[nocturne current]

I guess cut to the chase loses value on the extension compared improved poison because of deeper stratagem (?)

[drifting cloud]

oh right we had 6 surv hunters on lords I forgot about that one

[faint harness]

It was only ever good during CN prog after that it always became better after prog was done (for me at least)

[balmy condor]

bro what is this

[silk jolt]

anyone good with weak auras tell me how I can adjust the threshold that the cooldown text on these icons turns from yellow to red?

would like to have them correctly indicate pandemic window

[balmy condor]

depends on how its set up

[faint harness]

Looks like a spider web

[balmy condor]

would have to ask whoever made those wa

[silk jolt]

its my own

I'm just bad

[balmy condor]

how did you set it up

[silk jolt]

dynamic group then icons

[balmy condor]

okay how did you set up the color change

[silk jolt]

I didnt its default

[balmy condor]

I can assure you it's not default

[main solar]

are you using omnicc?

[silk jolt]

nope only have two addons installed, elv and wa

could be some elv functionality

but it's literally a dynamic group with icons underneath, nothing else

[vernal adder]

Addonskins?

[balmy condor]

dude what is thisssssssss

[nocturne current]

With the one you pasted above?

[balmy condor]

yeah

[main solar]

elvui Cooldown Text

[balmy condor]

it's 400 lower as well I don't understand

[main solar]

mess with settings in there

[silk jolt]

will give it a look

[balmy condor]

aight lets try a different apl in top gear

[hollow river]

400 lower than what?

[balmy condor]

maybe that's fucked

400 lower than my max in advanced

[nocturne current]

Is that good or bad.

[hollow river]

why is that significant

[drifting cloud]

because it might go even higher with his apl

[balmy condor]

because my talent setup before was 400 higher than what top gear is spitting out?

[hollow river]

shouldn't your max be higher than all other options if it's your max?

or with the same build

[balmy condor]

top gear should report the best talent setup

[hollow river]

ah

yeah

[balmy condor]

if my talent setup is the best

they should be equal

[hollow river]

yep

idk why i thought you didn't have it selected or some shit

<- dumby

[balmy condor]

ah there it is

we cracked 60k

[nocturne current]

🙂

[balmy condor]

but it does take cttc

it just decides to skip shadowstep and bloody mess instead

[nocturne current]

Makes sense

[balmy condor]

I mean lowkey it shouldn't though

[oak sky]

its so lame that we have bloody mess and imp poisons in that first row man some other classes have actual passives there

[balmy condor]

10% rupture and garrote per point is kinda good

[main solar]

15%?

[oak sky]

seal fate couldve been there

[balmy condor]

fatal concoction is dogshit too

[drifting cloud]

maybe theres a 0 missing somewhere

[balmy condor]

15% per point of bloody mess, you need to put shadowstep in so it's 3 point

[drifting cloud]

triple check all the talents!

[balmy condor]

I just did

[main solar]

true, fair point

[balmy condor]

this is actually peak cringe tho

holy

[drifting cloud]

well we are in the cringe channel

so its par for the course

[balmy condor]

look there's my 59,9

untalent shadowstep for dps gain

if there was anything better to do with the point than tight spender we'd fucking drop that too

god damnit

[drifting cloud]

played with 1 until now, why change it!

[main solar]

well that's still just assuming full 100% patchwerk right?

[hollow river]

is that still with SS?

[balmy condor]

yeh

[nocturne current]

Whut the.

[balmy condor]

the middle profile drops ss for ttb

[main solar]

Imagine the talent build dumping all the bleed damage still wants you to take exsang

[nocturne current]

No bloody mess?

[hollow river]

and the top takes which 2

[balmy condor]

correct

[nocturne current]

Hahah!

wtf

[main solar]

we going full poisons

[balmy condor]

I don't understand

it takes ss, not ttb

[hollow river]

and then SF+blindside?

[balmy condor]

just look

[hollow river]

ah

[main solar]

tuning gods help us

[hollow river]

that's odd

[drifting cloud]

dont think anyone is untalenting shadowstep for 0.3%

[vernal adder]

some are

[hollow river]

i think some will yeah

maybe not if they prog as assa

but yea

[main solar]

I mean, you still have it from the class tree. Just having 1 charge isn't too bad

[drifting cloud]

I think you forget how people felt about ct in st before venthy tiersnapshots

or theotar vs nadja

[balmy condor]

that means kingsbane is only 5% worse now

[hollow river]

outlaw gets hook and step=no problems

[hollow river]

[oak sky]

its fine trading utility that should basically be baseline for damage is fine

[hollow river]

DTB

poisons together strong

[main solar]

no imp garrote too, so wouldn't vanish lose alot of value?

[balmy condor]

what

whats not taking imp garrote

[main solar]

im dumb

ignore me

[thorn crater]

whispyr is slowly surrendering to madness

old shadowpriest talent creeping up IRL

[hollow river]

but losing 30% extra bleed dmg

that's weird

[main solar]

I went 1 talent tier too low lol

[balmy condor]

you say lose

I say replaced

[hollow river]

yeah i get that

[drifting cloud]

3 mid points > 2 good points and shadowstep

I guess

[balmy condor]

replaced by a fuckton of nonsense

[hollow river]

but aren't bleeds doing more dmg than poisons

[thorn crater]

technically only garrote does any dmg

[hollow river]

even without that 30%

[thorn crater]

so basically its bleed

not bleeds

[balmy condor]

it's more like 2 good points and a mid point > 2 good points and shadowstep

[thorn crater]

so amping up poisonS makes more sense than amping up one bleed spell

rupture is kitties

[balmy condor]

imp poison is quite strong

fatal is the dogshit one

aight well

[thorn crater]

the more i think aobut this madness though the more it makes sense

[drifting cloud]

jpc was right all along

[balmy condor]

I'm gonna pray that 4 set fix is going to force bloody mess back

cause that's cringe as hell

[thorn crater]

we are close to a point where we only apply rupture for the benefits (see SND)

not the dmg

[balmy condor]

2 bleed spells

[thorn crater]

basically a debuff proccing buffs

[thorn crater]

im ranting about how rupture does not do any real dmg anyway

[balmy condor]

but it does

[thorn crater]

isnt it like 6th overall?

[balmy condor]

you cast 2/3rds as many ruptures as garrotes

and it does comparable overall

[thorn crater]

and yet garrote is our top deeps

[balmy condor]

[thorn crater]

while rupture swims in mediocrity

isnt it?!

in the analysis

[balmy condor]

in single target?

[thorn crater]

bruh im confused everything everyone has linked after teh PB nerfs has had garrote as top dmg

wait ure talking pure patchwerk?

[balmy condor]

we've been talking about single target for the last 20 minutes

so yeah kinda

[thorn crater]

its 7am

i just woke up

i open discord and i see some fear mongering regarding dropping shs

wh do you want from me

😛

[balmy condor]

idk

exsang gone

bloody mess buff

apparently

[thorn crater]

tell that to your boy realz

hanging out in your streams

making fun of tunnel visioning boss for dmg

[hollow river]

so atm there's no real world where we take kingsbane

[thorn crater]

while mage poops all over us on ST

[snow hamlet]

amp poison still not be effected by mastery?

[balmy condor]

he just shows up to shit on my gameplay and then tell me that outlaw should get buffed because I was bottom dps on the pull

and then he leaves

[drifting cloud]

are you still in the same guild?

or whatever happened in s4

[balmy condor]

no it does

[thorn crater]

someone should make a virus showing exsanguinate all over the screen and send it to him (dont do it its a joke)

[balmy condor]

yeah but I test with OE

[snow hamlet]

in pre-patch?

or DF beta

[balmy condor]

oh no not in prepatch

[drifting cloud]

is your guild raiding df?

[balmy condor]

in beta its fixed

[snow hamlet]

okok thx

🤣

[balmy condor]

yes they're even adding another day

[drifting cloud]

will you be raiding there

[balmy condor]

maybe

[drifting cloud]

damn im bad at asking questions

ok

[hollow river]

4 days?

[balmy condor]

we went from 2 day to 3 day to 3 day + a 4th day for the first 2 weeks

and I'm just

why

[hollow river]

[balmy condor]

it's not even 4 day raiding for prog

it's legit

"the first 2 weeks only"

the fuck is that gonna do

[hollow river]

ohh

nothing

[balmy condor]

half a boss further

pog

I joined the guild cause it was chill and the people were fun

and every tier is just more and more cringe WR chasing

kinda over it

[drifting cloud]

first week its 9 raids anyways

minimum!

[hollow river]

same thing happened with my old guild

been rolling solo

[main solar]

Say hi to Varose for me Whispyr 😛

[balmy condor]

we went from 2x4 to 3x3

which is like

fine

I don't really mind that

little annoying

but sure

and then it was "we want to PUSH"

"lets PUSH"

"ADD WEDNESDAY"

and then people were like 4 day kinda cringe

so then it was add wednesday for the first 5 weeks

then 3 weeks

then 2

and now it's like okay why are we adding wednesday

[hollow river]

4 days is pretty lame

just kinda unnecessary

[balmy condor]

so now it's like 2 weeks of wednesday and then use wednesday for sales?

[hollow river]

you just fry your raiders brains for no real reason at that point

[balmy condor]

but we couldn't get sales going on our normal days?

so we're adding a day?

for the sales we dont have?

[balmy condor]

will do

[hollow river]

gotta have someone legit spamming a macro all day

to get sales

[thorn crater]

blizz should lock someone out of a raid if htey have completed it once per week. no joining others, no using others' ids

there i said it

everything costs too much

this inflation gotta stop

running a single boost is fine, having people doing it over and over and over back to back just with no loot for htem

like....

[hollow river]

what

what inflation are you talking about

[balmy condor]

pog

[hollow river]

going for an arbitrary rank

[balmy condor]

you don't get it

[hollow river]

instead of just having fun

[balmy condor]

my e-number

[hollow river]

"MY E-NUMBER IS BIGGER(smaller) THAN YOUR E-NUMBER"

[drifting cloud]

didnt you get kinda lucky with sepulcher timings

[balmy condor]

we did yeah

snuck in with nerfs

rode the nerf wave all the way through

[drifting cloud]

still great improvement

[balmy condor]

we got to anduin pretty quick

and then were stuck

until nerfs

but aside from that it wasn't bad

[drifting cloud]

man I sure loved version 1 of rygelon totally didnt wanna blow my brains out

now you have like a week to get into the other phase

[balmy condor]

our lords of dread

[drifting cloud]

🙂

[balmy condor]

yeah

lords cringe

and we don't require alts

but half our guild has one anyway

so every boss its like "I can come on my boomwarmageunter"

great

meanwhile dipshit ass rogue sitting here wanting to have fun

[hollow river]