assassination

[whole mason]

so, be happy.

[ebon notch]

big happy

[drowsy hollow]

has Assassination had any recent tree updates on the alpha? I'm surprised you guys still have so many "dead end" talents

[vestal wren]

no

realz did and potentially still does work on DH

i am not sure if he does tank too

but once the dh tree is in a somewhat okay state, he will be back to iterate on rogue

[drowsy hollow]

Last I heard rogues were getting Serrated Bone Spike back at some point right?

[hollow river]

It’s already back

[vestal wren]

hopefully apply some of the things he learned or found useful for dh

assassination got shrouded back also sbs

[balmy condor]

Realz also mentioned some more connectors

[drowsy hollow]

ah, pity they haven't included a talent for the unity affect.

[balmy condor]

There’s a screenshot of that in the spreadsheet

[hollow river]

Necro unity is probably the last unity we would want

[drowsy hollow]

😦 Necro unity is so fun in keys

[hollow river]

But it’s deadge in ST

[vestal wren]

i want to sign the #removeexsanguinate petition

[hollow river]

How about we #buffexsanguinate instead

[vestal wren]

#changeexsanguinate would work too

[drowsy hollow]

Well that's the good thing about talents, something can be good in AoE but not single target cause there's 0 opportunity cost to swap

[balmy condor]

Excellent take

#removeexsanguinate

[violet jackal]

#removeexsanguinate

[drowsy hollow]

Also it's weird Sin is one of the few specs that could get itself to a point where they can only get 1 capstone

Is there any chance they make Poison Bomb a 1 pointer?

[violet jackal]

we are just that powerful that having 2 capstones would destroy azeroth

[vestal wren]

capstones can be more powerful if you can only take one

it is a deliberate decision

[drowsy hollow]

I don't think Dragon-Tempered Blades are so strong to justify giving up multiple other things?

[limber lion]

I mean I'm farming the ring regardless of who's in the group. That's what I did the previous 2 times and with the vault trinket

Not forcing anyone to stick around

I just need my juice

:---)

2.5k dps upgrade for my feral btw

[vestal wren]

oh wow, you could make time to farm it

gz

[drowsy hollow]

too bad this was found out the week after timewalking ends

[vestal wren]

eu can still do TW keys

[drowsy hollow]

eh? How?

[vestal wren]

you ask the quest npc and get a keystone

it is bugged

[limber lion]

I got one ring with a socket :') just need 3k valoe to upgrade

Pls no fix

[drowsy hollow]

EU favoritism, bleh

[vestal wren]

i hope they don't fix, i did update half of the spreadsheet already (st and ds sims)

[peak bobcat]

Just let us buy it for 5000 valor from a vendor

So I can use all the useless valor I have from farming and not getting it

[drowsy hollow]

Can Carnage be used without breaking stealth?

[brazen zodiac]

pog

[fallow canopy]

jesus

[drowsy hollow]

after other classes the rogue trees with all their dead ends feels so weird.

[white orchid]

Damn so my 272 socket cos ring will sim higher than my “bis” mech set that I worked so hard to farm for lol

[peak bobcat]

Correct

Feels bad

[brazen zodiac]

and to think i listened to oxi and slapped the sockets on

always OXIclean zzzz

[white orchid]

Sigh. I could’ve farmed it too but I was like oh cos ring isn’t bis? I’ll just relax that week lol

[whole mason]

where?

[white orchid]

Didn’t step foot in a single legion dungeon that week bc nothing was good apparently lol

[peak bobcat]

So we get an extra point to skip TTB is all I’m seeing

[whole mason]

thx, could you please

link the spreadsheet

[balmy condor]

its in the pins

[drowsy hollow]

I still find all the dead ends really offputting in all the rogue trees, it's weird

[whole mason]

ahh, the tiny link i overlooked

[night crag]

true is here https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/599CMfPRQ5oeT4ZW55iBpH

[peak bobcat]

Should we use scars pre pull? If running with Kihra’s?

[gusty mirage]

shut up

[brazen zodiac]

<3

[gusty mirage]

ye you want to start the fight with 1 stack

[gusty mirage]

no

when they bug fix it

I'll come in here

and I will literally shit all over you for that comment

[peak bobcat]

About how many seconds should we use before?

[gusty mirage]

[brazen zodiac]

yes when they fix it ill tell u u were right

but until then

u wrong son!

[gusty mirage]

doesn't matter, you'll keep at least 1 stack when you enter combat

so ideally you pop it while everyone's sitting around wasting time in between pulls

[brazen zodiac]

also jokes on u cant shit all over me, i'm already dogshit

[gusty mirage]

my bad for not forseeing a bug that applied the auto attack damage to weapon damage

next time I'll get a job as a dev for blizzard so I can see the future of all the spaghetti code bugs that pop up from time to time

[brazen zodiac]

possible

[royal lantern]

is it just me or are those connenctions not really that big

[peak bobcat]

It literally lets you skip TTB

[drowsy hollow]

Wake me when they make a connection from katar to tempest to flying dagger

and then maim

[balmy condor]

I mean it's pretty good

can skip MA and venom rush as well

more is better

[royal lantern]

do we want to skip MA?

venom rush yeha, i can see it, but not really MA tbh

[balmy condor]

sure

in a world where dance sucks?

I would want to skip ma

[royal lantern]

just convinces me more and more that dance in the class tree is a mistake

MA got killed for it, and then its still to storng

so we either have mediocre stealth talents cus of dance, or a dance that is useless cus the talents dont work with it

[ember remnant]

I could see the dance being decent in keys for garrote spam

[drowsy hollow]

the CD doesn't exactly line up with Carnage but yeah.

[whole mason]

I wonder if a reversed energy system can be good for sin -- exsanguination dementia: mute natural energy generation, double the energy pool, increase cp generator crit, increase finisher crit dmg, drain energy per second and gain bleed delusion per nearby bleed from the player and the effect ends when energy reach 0. Each bleed delusion increase ticking rate of bleed and extra energy drain.

[royal lantern]

its m+, cd alingment is not that set in stone anyway

downtimes bettwen packs etc....

[drowsy hollow]

If you can get blades and either carnage or kingsbane at the same time I'd say the the tree would feel a lot better. I just wanna be the king of poisons and bleeds plz.

[royal lantern]

blades and kingsbane cant be taken at the same time by design

cus it would make balancing kingsbane impossible

[ember remnant]

So blade is more sustain and king is more bursty then right?

[balmy condor]

ye

[ember remnant]

Now to be seen if we have a lot of fight like sylv that don't reach execute range ever exist or not

[whole mason]

Without execute range may seriously put sin down a level, imho

[balmy condor]

?

[drowsy hollow]

the kingsblade interaction makes sense to block, but Carnage doesn't feel the same. And you can get Kingsblade and Carnage together.

[balmy condor]

it doesn't have any execute right now

and it's fine

and it has more execute in df

what's the issue with execute

[whole mason]

from the tree, I think execute becomes an important feature of sin

[balmy condor]

yeah it's one of the areas you can invest in

you definitely don't need to though

[drowsy hollow]

ugh, I hate the choice in keys between a second poison which is something that sin should've had forever ago, or helping delete a pack every 90s.

[whole mason]

I mean, if you look at the tree, blindside path and KB path both give advantage on execute, and at the same time the other line requires multiple targets for scent of blood and IC.

[peak bobcat]

There’s no choice at the moment

[whole mason]

if for example there is no execute for a boss, the choice for sin certainly will be limited.

[peak bobcat]

Yeah you’re taking DTB 100% of the time no?

[balmy condor]

you would take DtB or you would take kingsbane and just live with the fact that one talent isn't doing a lot

how is that different

[whole mason]

taking DtB is not however the problem, i'm talking about what else

[balmy condor]

okay so if execute is valuable, you would take kingsbane and the execute stuff on the left

and if execute is not valuable, you would have a choice between two keystones

and..... that's a problem?

[whole mason]

not like that. what I'm saying is for boss fight without execution phase, not with a low value one. The situation becomes quite extreme: the tree require the fight to have adds so we will consider IC path, otherwise it becomes very disappointing situation.

[grizzled jay]

Wonder how many targets is enough for SoB KB build

SBS over Sepsis on enough targets obv

[pseudo hamlet]

CoS ring is now bis, even better than mechagon rings?

[drowsy hollow]

seems so, congrats EU

[balmy condor]

due to a bug yes

[pseudo hamlet]

What do you mean by a bug? Raidbot wasn't calculating properly?

[whole mason]

I think it is not a bug bug, but a bug of what they want to modify the ring.

CoS ring will be on list in DF, and it is normal if they want to make the ring a bit different

[balmy condor]

aside from zoldyck providing no value in your 0 execute fight, can you tell me what's wrong with these options?

[balmy condor]

read #tc-updates

[pseudo hamlet]

Uh oh, thanks!

Damn, one day after I stopped farming Workshop

[whole mason]

the 2nd and 3rd's zoldyck makes no effect and we wasted 3 points, that's disadvantage. I would not say it is wrong since you can play whatever you want. For the 1st one, valuable talents at lower rows cannot really be selected and we must spend talent points somewhere top part without synergy: M'M without blindside or VV without M'M and blindside, point in TtK maybe weak instead of amp poison, or to pick cttc, let alone the existence of atrophic poison.

[drowsy hollow]

would shadow dance for occasionally putting out more stealth garrotes be stronger than Echoing?

doesn't feel like it would.

and if so much of assassination damage is poisons and bleeds, find weakness is just so so eh?

[whole mason]

BTW, aren't the top 3 rows bloated? 8 required but it seems 10 are must

[royal lantern]

bug means something that isnt supposed to happen, happens rn

it does more dmg then intended

[vestal wren]

there are other bugs in the game too

this bug just gets very high exposure given the impact

[drowsy hollow]

I'm a nub who plays for fun, but I think this is the build I'd probably go with to fit the fantasy I like with assassination. https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/rogue/assassination/BPBRVBRERUooQHAUIANVSoERVAgUCQ8QA

[pseudo hamlet]

Do raidbot calculate that thing properly right now?

[violet jackal]

yes

[rocky ruin]

!def

[prisma monolith]

Please Contribute by filling out the form on the title card with any info you have tested
This sheet is community-driven and may have some inaccuracies or be slightly out of date. You can help fix this by contributing!
Rogue Defensives usability: http://tiny.cc/q602uz

[pseudo hamlet]

it's a DPS los for me

[violet jackal]

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/keQqMasaeXXgQpTrHbqhBQ

[deft vault]

has the ring change been implemented for every class or rogue only?

and does it only affect rogue?

[peak bobcat]

It’s not a change it’s a bug

It affects every class with weapon damage

[limber lion]

It has been implemented in the simc, works for all classes

[deft vault]

how am i the only one gaining dmg ? its +600 for me and -500 for eeveryone else inm my guild

[limber lion]

Are they melee

[prisma berry]

what ilvl are fated items from cn?

[deft vault]

yeah one enhance and one feral

[pseudo hamlet]

Oh damn, it should be Nightly LOL
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/vxEaDMVSMsyC1AeAF7zkYC 1,1k more!

[vestal wren]

just make sure to use nightly version on raidbots

[drowsy hollow]

Feral is getting something like 2k dps from the ring

[prisma berry]

thx

[cedar star]

Feral is getting a 11% damage increase from the ring

It’s over 3k

[vestal wren]

yes feral is the big winner

with 10-12% dps gain

[distant plinth]

Do you think it will be fixed? Or should EU haaard grind till we Get that ring?

[vestal wren]

no idea

it has a high exposure so it might get fixed

[drowsy hollow]

If Court is an S1 key I wouldn't mind a temporary nerf.

[distant plinth]

Yea Even wowhead posted it. So it will be fixed soon i guess

[strange python]

are there any addons for alpha or its useless to make them for alpha?

[drowsy hollow]

they don't turn on addons for alpha until much later in beta

Cause when you're updating the UI you don't want anything else to possibly cause bugs

[fallow canopy]

I sim more dmg from mechagon set than cos ring but I haven't sim with dusk in ring + cos but can't think it would change that much

since the other ring i have is 298 compared to dusk being 291

[pseudo hamlet]

I chose weekly instead of nightly option in the raidbot

Its +1,1k DPS upgrade 😄

[fallow canopy]

oh, I'm scared of simming now

suddenly its going to be a massive upgrade I don't want to grind xd

[pseudo hamlet]

They will probably fix it(?), not sure though. It seems like a too much DPS upgrade for a single item.

[fallow canopy]

+1.5k for me lol

[peak bobcat]

If you are NA Just pretend it’s not real and it can’t hurt you

[fallow canopy]

I'm in NA

[peak bobcat]

Same

[visual hemlock]

so glad i got that ring for fun to try outlaw

now its assa bis ring lol

[thorn fjord]

Is it simming as high with pirate tho?

Prob no where near

[drowsy hollow]

someone posted a discord image in the sub channel of someone presumably asking a dev to fix it who says it's already coming and wowhead article is making them do it a bit faster, but you know the internet and screenshots

[thorn fjord]

The reason we cant have nice things

🤣

[subtle tundra]

How big is the diff between mechagon rings and jewel?

[violet jackal]

289 dps (272 no socket) compared to 298 mechagon set with 1 socket for me

I think fuu posted about 1000 dps difference if you managed a 298 jeweled vs mechagon set scroll up for confimation

[subtle tundra]

Ah yes

[subtle tundra]

I mean. It's a 1k dps upgrade apparently thats only available for a limited amount of time

[storm onyx]

I doubt they will let it live

[subtle tundra]

It is live

[oak sky]

Its just gonna get unbugged soontm

[subtle tundra]

Hopefully

[storm onyx]

I know, what I meant is it won’t live for long

[subtle tundra]

If it were like previous season upgrade it would've been fine like 200 dps or whatever

[fallow canopy]

its too much of a damage boost lol

[royal lantern]

common dude, thats not how internet outrage works

BLIZZARD is TIMEGATING ring BUFFS to make us GRIND longer!!!!!!!!!!!!

[fading wigeon]

its 525 dps increase for me with my 272 version lol

[dawn kelp]

Didn’t farm it out last week sadge

[outer lodge]

45 runs of workshop to finally get the ring... just to see now CoS ring is a 1250dps increase..

[royal lantern]

its a bug

jesus

[nimble tartan]

mfs who snitchin on the ring same mfs who want people to pay off their loan without help

[soft shale]

ring got snapped in 3

[near lark]

75% nerf to the ring

Still g?

[grizzled jay]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/hotfixes-august-26-2022-court-of-stars-ring-nerfed-328572?webhook

there it is

[misty holly]

I kind of wonder if it's still not BIS. Just not as absurdly so anymore.

[latent dew]

Why does the nerf?

[grizzled jay]

Very doubtful for Sin it will remain BiS

[latent dew]

I mean it was bis but dude

[grizzled jay]

because it was like 1k dps over every other ring

That's clearly unintended

[gusty mirage]

You can all stop freaking out now.

[near lark]

So go farm mecha set I still haven't gotten

Yay

[strange python]

Debt forgiveness is bad.

[gusty mirage]

because it was broken?

[strange python]

Incentivizes higher tuitions. Debt forgiveness doesn't work without mandatory reductions in tuition.

[gusty mirage]

it was increasing weapon damage

take that shit to OT

thanks

[strange python]

Sry Mr oxi

[fallow canopy]

cursed profile pic

[strange python]

It's time to get drunk on soju and eat kbbq. Ring nerf. Good vibes all around.

[grizzled jay]

It's still BiS for Outlaw in Dungeon Slice so 100% not BiS for Sin lol

It's only BiS for OL by like 20 dps

[gusty mirage]

as it should've been

making timelimited gear obnoxiously better than what you have available at all times is bad

much like blizzard's QA apparently

[grizzled jay]

Legion TW happening in the last like 2 weeks of a season is fine IMO. grind out the gear for the new season to get a jumpstart. having it at the beginning of a season is obnoxious though.

[latent dew]

Gavel "exist"

[strange python]

I like it as something 9 weeks into a season

[gusty mirage]

my dude, it was literally broken

[grizzled jay]

Gavel's bug was also fixed

The weapon swapping bug

[strange python]

P sure gavel is similar to edge of night, and isn't time locked.

[gusty mirage]

like the effect was increasing your weapon damage

as if your weapon was a higher ilvl than what it actually is

[strange python]

The issue with cos ring primarily is that it was time locked.

[gusty mirage]

what does the gavel have to do with that?

[fleet anchor]

It probably is still BiS by a small amount

Just not a dramatic amount

Checking Assassination profiles now

[grizzled jay]

is that dungeon slice

[fleet anchor]

304 Mecha, ST

[grizzled jay]

ah

wouldn't consider that worth grinding for but EU peeps still can I guess

wonder what it does to Feral

[fleet anchor]

I know no Assassination players do M+ so no reason to sim DS

😛

For better comparison with 298 versions

[near lark]

So COS bis for sin too

[jaunty crystal]

there's like 2 of them and they have brain dmg

[near lark]

What ring does this include as a pair with signet? Lego or 304/311

[outer lodge]

[main solar]

Do we know if that change is live on raidbots yet? Want to try simming it against any old 272 versions

[gusty mirage]

leggo would be my guess

no mechagon set = dusk on rings

[grizzled jay]

ye since you can get Mythic chest stats at that point

[fleet anchor]

Leggo is what Fuu was using for his BiS CoS setups

That he sent over today

[near lark]

Ya I had a feeling but just wanted to check to be sure so I do t go recrafting

Danke. I have some gold to spend in the morning so 😂

[silver umbra]

If no one had noticed

they woulda kept it probably

[near lark]

And we'd have 1k more dps as a class 😂

[main solar]

Until we blindly swapped to mechagon set rings when we got them and unknowingly nerfed ourselves.

[fleet anchor]

Yeah mostly people have been doing non-optimal stuff for a while since this wasn't known

Either way, not knowing probably isn't good

[spice spire]

[fleet anchor]

Only ones who would have taken advantage of it would have been people doing so accidentally lol

Also it triggers me when sims are inaccurate

[spice spire]

Can only confirm, by the many outlaw changes in 9.2

Finding huge gains

[whole mason]

so still like 1.x% better?

[grizzled jay]

0.81% better

[fleet anchor]

But yeah realistically the value for ST vs. M+ actually shouldn't be too different with the "new" behavior

Since effectively it's just +attack power at the end of the day

[spice spire]

Yeah ik.
I’m memeing here - it’s good work. Such a weird freaking thing to find

[fleet anchor]

With it just being +AA before

Was obviously different

With this version, it's kinda universal

[spice spire]

+AA is something ST, but a lot less diff in M+.
Though the positional requirement diff

Just sucks that it’s done for NA this week

Unluck

[fleet anchor]

It's still basically like writing "Increases Attack Power by 81" on the tooltip for Assassination

[marble hemlock]

Reminds me of ns/dp in legion and how it was in the game for a long time but no one ever noticed 😄

[fleet anchor]

DS sims

Presumably having the extra AP is just better than more Haste

[marble hemlock]

What bounty stat and how many stacks?

[spice spire]

Makes sense

Oh no

[fleet anchor]

Yeah this was really subtle. I dunno if it was in last season. The value was much lower so it would have been a lot harder to notice.

[spice spire]

It’s LBE all over again

[fleet anchor]

Last season maybe wasn't bugged. Or maybe it was just small enough it was close to the 5% variance lol

[marble hemlock]

My mom always said if you do something well, there's no reason not to stick with it

[spice spire]

[marble hemlock]

I can drive simlords insane.

It's a useful skill to have

Love the quick updates though

[whole mason]

I think in DF our AA contributes a lower percentage or general AA for melee contributes lower, and they're making this change to make the ring attractive since the ring is on next season's list.

[balmy condor]

this ain't a channel for promotion, we have #rogue-streamers and a role for that

[sharp falcon]

hello, am i allowed to be a rogue again

[oak sky]

Yes please

[fleet anchor]

With Glide removed from Momentum, your job with Havoc is done. Welcome back.

[sharp falcon]

Up next: Rogue Glide

[fleet anchor]

👀

[sharp falcon]

=p

[fleet anchor]

Who needs Glide when you have https://www.wowhead.com/spell=239290/catlike-reflexes

[oak sky]

Im hoping theres some philosphy and stuff from the dh trees that helps our trees reach their full potential

Looking forward to any changes that come 🙂

[fallen raven]

i miss no fall damage sub so much, imagine the divebomb potential with dragonriding

[main solar]

Haven't checked, does sub keep the running on water while sprinting perk?

probably better question for the sub channel, but kinda just following the discussion of random little perks in here

[fallen raven]

yeah they get it at level 43 currently

oh wait i'm dumb you mean in df

i don't think they have it in the current df build

[subtle tundra]

??????????? I am 1 person.

Human if I may

[balmy condor]

incorrect

you are 1 alien

sin m+er in current year

alien lives don't matter

this is my racist take

[subtle tundra]

[fallen raven]

oh huh i only just noticed fleet footed doesn't have reduced fall damage attached to it in df, that feels rough for open world gameplay

[balmy condor]

but dargonriden

[main solar]

the return of safe fall?

Those are definitely the kind of perks we should get baseline though. Cool to have, definitely not worth a talent point.

[vestal wren]

no fall damage would be rly nice

[subtle tundra]

Most deaths on my alts are from fall damage

[fallen raven]

same, i'm so used to rogue fall damage

i don't hate this, dropping throughput points doesn't feel as bad for questing, though still not ideal

[main solar]

Naw, absolutely not worth the talent points

[fallen raven]

is a bit weird since they were both sub things but i'm greedy

[oak sky]

imo our class tree needs some retooling/restructuring so it has less throughput

[main solar]

reduced fall damage is an every rogue thing though

[fallen raven]

yeah that's true

i guess you could just make fleet footed/improved sprint better, and maybe move nightstalker to where shadowstep is?

[vestal wren]

only subtlety got water walking and catflike ^^

[main solar]

Oh, we do actually have safe fall already in DF

[vestal wren]

but also i think sprint water walking is not worth a node

it is such a niche use case

i am also still surprised nightstalker got split into two(three) nodes

one for the MS and one for the damage amp

[main solar]

yeah, those things are intentially made baseline across all classes, because they dont want you to feel like you have to spend talent points on those tiny things

[vestal wren]

no fall damage is also very minor

a lot of classes can reduce their fall damage to 0 easy

[grizzled jay]

sprint water walking was a glyph

[fallen raven]

even rogue with hook and step, though step's more situational ther

[grizzled jay]

it was for all rogues longer than it was 'just sub'

[main solar]

Just fall near a target and shadow step to it before you hit the ground. Easy.

[vestal wren]

yes, but only for sub or was i wrong?

oh okay

[grizzled jay]

it was a minor so universal

[vestal wren]

true, it was initially a glyph, but sub atm has it baseline

[oak sky]

even so thats the kind of utility where it would be fine in the class tree if it was ever applicable in any relevant content

[main solar]

the glyph was class wide, was a minor one. But it was made sub only afterwards

[vestal wren]

fair

catlike was sub only tho

not that it matters, i think we all need it

[oak sky]

whats catlike

[main solar]

zero fall damage

[vestal wren]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=239290/catlike-reflexes

[main solar]

instead of just reduced

[oak sky]

thats a dead point on a tree tho

could be baseline

[grizzled jay]

doesn't need to be a 'dead point' if most of the throughput in the tree was replaced

[vestal wren]

both sprint on water and catlike seem fairly niche

[grizzled jay]

Catlike can't be in the Class tree though

[fallen raven]

yeah i think the class tree would need to be fully utility with a lot more interconnectedness for it to be a node

[grizzled jay]

It would break Outlaw PvP lol

[oak sky]

its a dead point for pve happy

[fallen raven]

zero chance you keep the dodge chance if you bring it back

[vestal wren]

huh, why

[grizzled jay]

Outlaw getting 35% more dodge makes an already insanely tanky spec basically unkillable gods

[fallen raven]

i think this talk is specifically for the fall damage aspect

[vestal wren]

oh, i think most ppl only talk about the no fall damage part of it

[oak sky]

either way its dead in pve

[main solar]

yup, and honestly, zero fall damage is just ridiculous at some times, so don't mind that so much. sprint on water is fun and sad to see go, but very very niche and would never be worth a talent point. Especially with how much throughput is in the general tree.

[vestal wren]

it depends on the placing in the tree

and if it competes with other dps nodes

[oak sky]

i mean

catlike has no benefit in pve

you never take fall damage and you rarely take aggro

[main solar]

even at the top of the tree, there's so much more utility stuff

[oak sky]

actually never

with tricks

[grizzled jay]

why does every talent need to have a use in pve

[oak sky]

because pvp talents exist

[grizzled jay]

??

the point of talents isn't to make you more powerful every single talent you take

[oak sky]

if catlike is in a position when i can fully ignore it then its not a problem

where

[grizzled jay]

is that literally not what the above poster added

[oak sky]

but even then

it could be a different point that i might use in some situation

[grizzled jay]

what

[oak sky]

im not saying it would be objectively bad for it to exist

but theres the thing with annihilator on the fury tree where it takes up possible design space

but like meh

[grizzled jay]

we aren't fury

[oak sky]

at the end of the day it would be fine if it existed

ur right

[fallen raven]

yeah if they're below the first point barrier and not directly on the path down then they have a big opportunity cost dps-wise with the current tree design

but i think that might be okay for something super niche like no fall damage

[oak sky]

the only thing about no fall damage is that its a qol so im not really convinced it belongs on a talent tree

the dodge chance for pvp is a totally fair thing to be around tho

[vestal wren]

probably would make sense for world content too

i don't think sub rogue was "op" in pvp in legion

[grizzled jay]

Sub didn't gain a free 15% stamina in PvP tho

[main solar]

well, warmode is a thing now, even though its not as relevant after BFA

if stealthed rogues didn't annoy people enough, wait till they hear about rogues falling out of the sky!

[obtuse robin]

that would be really good in torghast type content

[fallen raven]

yeah it's probably too niche to make sense right now, i do think the talent trees could be a way to bring back fun flavour things like that and sprint waterwalking but it's hard to fit into a class tree that has throughput considerations

[obtuse robin]

the dodge chance that is

[oak sky]

yeah like i personally wouldnt be super likely to interact with stuff like that but as long as its out of the way it wouldnt matter really

[fallen raven]

this is mostly just me wanting that stuff back and trying to justify it, especially now that we lose the passive fall damage reduction entirely

[main solar]

we didn't, I just checked and we do have safe fall back now

[obtuse robin]

i want there to be more choices tho esp in the sin tree, doesnt have to be throughput related tho

[main solar]

they seperated it out into its own ability/passive because of fleet footed being a talent

[oak sky]

yeah we do have safe fall

[fallen raven]

is that actually the case on alpha? wowhead lists current fleet footed as a class passive still but i assumed since it's also on the tree that it was a mistake

does the talent do another +15%?

[oak sky]

from wowhead

[fallen raven]

oh i didn't see that, weird

all this complaining for nothing lmao

[oak sky]

idk

[main solar]

The water walking sprint is gone though, just checked and tested incase it was a hidden passive

[oak sky]

does that prevent us from dying from fall damage

[oak sky]

this seems like something that just didnt get implemented

because sprint rank 2 is in the class tree

[main solar]

probably forgot about entirely because of how minor and niche it was lol

[oak sky]

nah i bet its just a spell rank thing

[main solar]

there is an improved sprint talent in the general tree, they could always bake it into that as an added little feature

[oak sky]

yeah that would be an easy way to do it

[main solar]

"Reduces the cooldown of Sprint by 60 sec and allows walking on water while active." some shit like that

[oak sky]

would be nice if we could ever take that node

just too much throughput so we dont get any utility

[main solar]

assassination might not, but outlaw/sub could for sure. Atleast with the current pathing

and with it being a sub only thing now, its not like we lose anything because of it

[oak sky]

it definitely feels weird to not take short sprint when we have it now

like losing certain talents feels bad

[vestal wren]

sprint on water is nice flavour

[oak sky]

same as recuperator

or like

cheat if for throughput we cant go that direction some time

[gusty mirage]

Imagine jailer with a 2 minute sprint

[obtuse robin]

there 2 things other trees are doing almost all the time, getting rid of 3 points nodes and combining nodes as we have tthem atm

[gusty mirage]

That’s my opinion on needing to talent into improved sprint

[main solar]

Considering a lot of the current class changes going on, our general tree definitely feels really throughput heavy and not enough points to pick up any cool utility

[oak sky]

its bad enough with only 1 step

[obtuse robin]

i bet improved sprint will get streamlined

[main solar]

its likely the iteration on rogue tree for that just hasnt happened yet for obvious DH tree crafting reasons

[oak sky]

yeah of course

[gusty mirage]

If they want to keep it 2 minute baseline, I better not see any bullshit mechanics that make you run away from the boss possibly every minute

[oak sky]

i think our class tree is pretty flawed

[obtuse robin]

me 2

[main solar]

same

[oak sky]

it has some bright spots but

yeah

[obtuse robin]

i feel like we have 2 dead capstones atm

among other stuff

[oak sky]

thats the least of our problems

[obtuse robin]

feels like no choice

every spec gets the same thing pretty much

minus posion dmg for sin there and acro for law there

[main solar]

lack of real pathing after the first gate, MFD/CB being forced picks, cheat death positioning, extremely heavy throughput on bottom tier that includes 3pt talents as gates to mediocre at best "capstones" (since Vigor and DS are technically capstones)

[oak sky]

yeah it would be nicer with only a couple throughput nodes and the vast majority being utility

[obtuse robin]

hundo p

[main solar]

Seal Fate is kind of a funky issue for assassination in particular when it comes to aoe

[vestal wren]

don't worry, we could make it 3 by removing fw and shadow dance from the class tree

[main solar]

as also being that defining playstyle for so long

[oak sky]

we should always have seal fate

tbh

[obtuse robin]

[oak sky]

seal fate is pretty core

[main solar]

it definitely should be passive or very high in the assassination tree imo. I feel like it should be swapped with elaborate planning

[oak sky]

ye

i thought of that change too

[gusty mirage]

Why should be it swapped out for elaborate planning?

Why specifically EP lol

[main solar]

just because of its placement and that it can be considered pretty general

[oak sky]

i would prefer

seal fate either lower in the class tree or just in the spec tree elsewhere

but traded for ep would work as well

[gusty mirage]

So putting elaborate planning on the class tree where seal fate is would fix your qualm with “dead capstones”?

[main solar]

no, the swap is a different discussion

[gusty mirage]

They’re directly related though

[oak sky]

my qualm isnt dead capstones but anyways

my main qualm***

[gusty mirage]

[oak sky]

i missed you oxi and this is how you treat me :c

[gusty mirage]

Sorry looking where I said it was your qualm

[main solar]

thistle tea being thistle dead makes the capstone dead, not whether seal fate vs elaborate planning being before it

[gusty mirage]

Can’t seem to find it in the message

But how does ep being where SF is alleviate that issue

[oak sky]

im the main character you were talking about me

[main solar]

I also never said those were dead capstones myself to be fair

[gusty mirage]

I mean they are

[main solar]

true, but that can be a tuning thing

[oak sky]

ep swapping with sf doesnt fix that problem but it does fix the issue that sf was more baseline than ep in the past and it would be going into a position more fitting to that quality

[gusty mirage]

Thistle Tea is neat but that’s all it’ll ever be unfortunately

[gusty mirage]

SF was also deep in the assassination tree in the old talents

Soooo

[vestal wren]

thistle tea is inherently dependent on energy income

and you get at least currently on alpha a fairly high energy income

[main solar]

Seal fate being where it is, is an assassination problem. It was also made baseline for so many expansions

[gusty mirage]

This is my issue with a lot of our tree. Is things that were baseline are being made into talents and now we have to choose

[main solar]

AoEing as assassination without seal fate... no thanks

[oak sky]

it was formerly baseline with new talents which means it was core to our kit which means it should be accessible

[gusty mirage]

Tbf AoEing with seal fate is also a no thanks

[oak sky]

like why should we lose anything

[gusty mirage]

To give the illusion of choice

Which is what all these trees are

[oak sky]

i dont see any choice in the trees

[vestal wren]

wdym, sealed fate is super consistent/reliable

[oak sky]

i only see flexibility

[gusty mirage]

Because you’re a mythic raider

[oak sky]

seal fate being deep makes it less flexible

which is bad

[main solar]

Agreed on this, which is why a high placement in the class tree, like what was done with venomous wounds is kinda fine. You're kind of expected to take it, but technically can skip it if you REALLY want to.

[gusty mirage]

Casual Charles will gladly give up 20% dps for fast stealth and increased melee range

Which is what the game has to be balanced around unfortunately

Because casual Charles pays the bills. Not us

You have to give cool options and ideas for the casuals so they don’t get bored

[main solar]

eh, they've made it pretty clear that its totally possible to have bad talent builds and that's fine

[gusty mirage]

Regardless of how it shakes up, we’re going to sim shit and follow the path

Let’s be real

[vestal wren]

tbh

ideally you have only nodes that you want to take

[gusty mirage]

No

[vestal wren]

and 😓 what nodes to drop

[oak sky]

casual charles reads whispyrs wowhead guide so he can blue parse his normal pugs oxi

[gusty mirage]

Ideally we don’t have to choose between dps and utility

Especially considering our main job is dps

[vestal wren]

i mean yes that too

[gusty mirage]

We bring nothing else

[main solar]

the class tree should be like 90% utility

which isnt the case atm

[gusty mirage]

Having to lose dps for a personal QoL utility is dumb

[main solar]

maybe more like 80%, but you get the point

[gusty mirage]

Especially one that’s been baseline forever

2 minute sprint is dogshit

[oak sky]

class tree should be grab all the damage you can carry then go for utility

[gusty mirage]

And idk about you guys but I use sprint a LOT in raid

[oak sky]

yes

all the time

losing 1min sprint would feel ass but i would do it if i had to

[gusty mirage]

I don’t want to go back to classic raiding where you run out 10s before a mechanic happens so you don’t get clipped

Especially given how hard the raid design team has been on melee

No thanks dude

[main solar]

we're losing a lot of things right now. Being able to pick up something as simple as Vigor or Deeper Strat... kind of a lot to give up for that and probably not even worth it

[gusty mirage]

Deeper strata was nerfed so it’s kinda whatever

[vestal wren]

raid design in sepulcher and sanctum was decent/good for melee

cn was not

[gusty mirage]

Carrying bombs on halondrus with 2 minute sprint

[vestal wren]

not too far off

[gusty mirage]

Thank God people can stop crying now about not getting the ring

[main solar]

Vigor/Deeper(live version) should honestly be a bit higher up, like middle of the tree, and probably made a choice node

[vestal wren]

subtlety is rly good because of double step

ironically sub won't have it always

while assassination probably will

[main solar]

dump MFD/CB down where they are currently to make them choices instead of forced on

[gusty mirage]

Just dump mfd in the trash

Make it a pvp talent

I don’t want it

[main solar]

I don't want it either, but there's nothing wrong with letting it be an option if people want it

[gusty mirage]

mfd doesn’t make sense in assassination’s kit anyway

[vestal wren]

both mfd and cb are ideal things you can opt into

[main solar]

which is why I don't mind it being down there as a "capstone". If you want to go down that path, go for it

[gusty mirage]

Thematically

[vestal wren]

instead of mandatory choices

[gusty mirage]

If our finishers did any kind of burst damage

Mfd would make sense

But the wet noodle that is envenom makes mfd useless

[main solar]

I think it being off to the side somewhere like where Vigor/DS are now is better than the choice node option I think was being considered

[gusty mirage]

We’ll probably end up using it for snd

[main solar]

because as a choice node, you still run into the problem of "which sims better" if its in its current spot

[gusty mirage]

Drop cttc completely for more damage in the spec tree

[vestal wren]

switching mfd/cb with vigor/deeper could work

[gusty mirage]

And just mfd snd

[oak sky]

i hate snd and i hate that we dont take cttc

so dog

[gusty mirage]

Snd is fine. It’s free damage

[main solar]

Give assassination WoD SnD

done

[gusty mirage]

But we go back to the “spinning too many plates” issue that sin had in 9.0 before cttc was introduced

[vestal wren]

i think cttc will be in general more of a niche pick

[gusty mirage]

Juggling 3-4 short times things isn’t fun

[vestal wren]

snd lasts long enough to make it a non issue to maintain

[oak sky]

didnt ask its boring

[vestal wren]

its more comfort

[gusty mirage]

So’s rupture

[oak sky]

rupture gives me energy its extra poggers with the sauce

[gusty mirage]

Wow dude massive fun

[main solar]

Rupture synergizes with a lot more, especially with a lot of the newer talents

[vestal wren]

hmm

[gusty mirage]

All of assassination’s kit is boring

[vestal wren]

what if they changed internal bleeding to work on bosses

more bleeds to keep up

[gusty mirage]

Think of the energy regen

Poggies

and before anyone asks, yes IB is on venomous

[oak sky]

indeed

i ran it on kt because i was assigned to an add

[main solar]

Scent of Blood exists now for example

[gusty mirage]

Look at you being selfish with your kidney shot

I raised you right

[oak sky]

my iron wire wouldve done so much

(i will never go prey

[obtuse robin]

i dont see it on the tooltip

[gusty mirage]

Good man

[vestal wren]

assassination: 23,303
outlaw: 23,851
subtlety: 23,215

after the nerfs

[gusty mirage]

Idk if it’s in alpha I never got access

[vestal wren]

from a quick look

[gusty mirage]

But it’s 110% on VW on retail

[oak sky]

yeah it is

100p

[obtuse robin]

it was on the tooltip indf aswell

and then one day it wasnt

[gusty mirage]

Probably have to spec into it

Like you do on retail

[oak sky]

would be nice if the class tree had like a forced utility node or smth

[obtuse robin]

maybe

[oak sky]

i meant spec

not class

[gusty mirage]

It’d be weird that realz would let that change go through, considering he was a pvper

[oak sky]

like i dont mind having a little spec utility like iron wire n shit but if we take it it shouldnt feel too bad

[main solar]

I can test it right now

Unless its a bug, Internal Bleeding does not proc VW on alpha

and it is not on the tooltip either

Yeah, for the assassination tree, a lot of the utility like iron wire feel dead because they're out of the way (not forced on you, so technically good?), but we don't really get enough points to throw around onto extra stuff

I mean, we don't even get enough points to justify cttc in its current form

its a current passive made 2 points, AND nerfed from its live form (2s instead of 3s)

I like having the attack speed, but I just don't get the justification of even having it be a button press. Its like it exists purely to put a bit of a ramp into our opener.

[oak sky]

You can get iron wire in m+ pretty easily because theres so little in terms of aoe throughput

[main solar]

which doesnt make sense when they make poison application so much higher in the opener in the same breath

[gusty mirage]

Wdym think about the buffs to fok damage

[oak sky]

Even though they suck

Theres only 2 of them lmao

[vestal wren]

you basically have forced utility nodes with the initial 8

[oak sky]

I meant spec tree

[vestal wren]

you probably won't skip shadow step on the sin tree

[main solar]

or your 2nd charge of shiv

I wonder how much of that is because rogues have their first gate 1 tier higher

we're still the only class with that right?

[vestal wren]

you can design it

having the first gate at 3 just means you can have more choice in one of the other gates

how many nodes you put into the first 3 does decide the dynamic however

[main solar]

I dont hate it, just curious

Looking around the other trees, the difference seems to be other classes have more 1 pt nodes up top

so seems to serve as the "stop and pick something else" since a lot of ours are 2pts

[vestal wren]

you can just look at subtlety

subtlety has a only one point nodes before the first gate

[main solar]

true, definitely more node heavy on the top than assassination though

[vestal wren]

but i think the assassination tree is decently well designed

the choices mostly seem good and the tree is easy to understand

some more pathing would be great

[main solar]

the pathing is really my only gripe with assassination's. The rest is pretty good

[vestal wren]

and well... it would be nice if we could replace exsanguinate with something better

[main solar]

can only really nitpick at a couple things on it

Like there's an empty spot in each "path" right under Vicious Venoms, Deathmark, and Leathal Dose respectively. Technically could add something there to break up the 3 pointers before the capstones, but that would probably break the 20pt gate

[gusty mirage]

God bless

They could replace it with a talent that makes you /train every time you mutilate and it’d be better

[main solar]

and some of that changes if/when you add more connectors between the paths

[oak sky]

The best changes would be more connections and making our 3 points 2p and adding an extra 1p above or below them

[gusty mirage]

I mean the 3pt dumps seem to be there primarily as a way to prevent 2 capstones which is fine

Just combine them into a choice node

[main solar]

There's some deliberate placements to prevent certain combos, just gotta make sure none of that breaks.

[cold patio]

Hm all 3 preview talent sheets dont take the -3% DMG from Taget Psn?

[gusty mirage]

Huh

Oh

[main solar]

You can definitely break up Dashing though

[oak sky]

Nah whats better than a 3 point node is a 2 point then a 1 point its literally the same thing but better

[gusty mirage]

Atrophic poison

[balmy condor]

did you read the big bold at the top

or did you just ooga booga into the tree

[obtuse robin]

everything other tree is moving away from 3p nodes for a reason

[balmy condor]

and then tab into discord without reading literally anything

[obtuse robin]

they suck

[oak sky]

A 3 point node should either not exist or have maximum 1 in a tree for an extremely powerful trait

[main solar]

breaking up dashing into the poison crit chance and poison crit generating energy would fix the weird first point being more powerful than the other 2 problem

[cold patio]

Oh Yeah sry 😅

[main solar]

and I get and can totally agree with needing to make sure DTB + KB doesnt happen, but am of the personal opinion that a choice node would have been a better solution to that. Just doesn't feel great when you have to gimp other parts of the tree for that one problem.

[obtuse robin]

3 pointers and spliting up current baseline talents

no!

[main solar]

simple example is the extra point to block DTB + KB also blocks DTB + IC, which has nothing to do with the intended solution. Meanwhile KB + IC is still possible, so its definitely not a "only 1 capstone allowed" thing.

Of course the problem would be coming up with something cool enough to fill the spot

Guess you could technically throw Sepsis into that spot, splitting it from the SBS choice node.

[oak sky]

its really this simple

the 2 on the right feel better than the one on the left

different paths can lead up to them but as long as the paths have those last 4 points restricted you can prevent a multiple capstones

obviously that design goal may have changed at this point and it could be possible for us to get multiple capstones in the future

but the fact is unless a 3 point node is giga strong restrictive 2+1 or 1+2 is just objectively better

getting more cool shit is pog

[vestal wren]

one thing to keep in mind is

that you need to keep in mind that the tree won't get deeper, so you can't just add a new row of nodes

[oak sky]

yeah thats true

some rearranging might need to happen

but its not like our tree needs to be this straight line or whatever

I think assassination was one of the fewest total nodes of any spec so

I think we could use a couple more

Maybe 2 or 3 new passives

If we dont get them its whatever im not gonna lose sleep over it but personally I want us in the best possible spot

[vestal wren]

there are only few utility nodes

but i think that is fine

if you compare it to subtlety (sry that i always use it as a example)

subtlety has a lot of optional utility nodes, but it might end up with all of them as nodes

i am personal not a fan of that

[fallen raven]

almost zero chance you ever take cloaked in shadows, right?

maybe pvp?

[oak sky]

@vestal wren yeah sub definitely has more issues than sin with random bad talents, I'm not trying to say the sin tree is awful I just like to state how I personally think it could be improved

[vestal wren]

I think the to a degree restrictive nature of the sin tree works

because of how streamlined the tree is and how clear options are layed out

[oak sky]

And even if my feedback isnt read or if it isnt directly used it could give others good ideas or spark good improvements

And I did say that I don't have an issue with restrictiveness I said that I think we could have 1 extra talent squeezed in somehow just to have a little something more

[vestal wren]

shtos, nights terror, shroud and cloaked in shadows all are very niche choices

and come with a high cost

so even if you could take them, you think twice to evaluate your alternatives

so in a sense it seems like there is "choice" in "no choice"

[oak sky]

Not to mention double vanish, dust, the rotten, and sometimes being forced to take fade to nothing(which tbf is a smaller thing) all of which i have the impression are weaker talents for sub

[vestal wren]

if that makes sense

double vanish could see play with dust, but also might be not strong enough

[oak sky]

Its 1 extra vanish per fight im not really convinced thats strong

[vestal wren]

the lower side in general has a lot of problems with appeal.
PV, Lingering and Rotten all do not seem to excite people and even nodes like inev are not super strong

[oak sky]

Ye pv man

Rough

[vestal wren]

but pv also gets a rework

but i think i go a bit to much into subtlety for the channel 😛

[oak sky]

I like a huge amount of the talrnts on the right side for sub though

[vestal wren]

if you have a structure with very linear pathing

you rly need to have exciting nodes

[oak sky]

Absolutely

[vestal wren]

but it is up to realz to decide what to change

[oak sky]

Yep all we can do is lay out our thoughts and see what comes

[vestal wren]

i did state most of the obviouse issues of the tree in the wowhead post, but also did stay within a range of things that can be changed easily

as i know some people want more of a re-work

[oak sky]

I think the class tree is more of an issue than the spec trees

[vestal wren]

what might not be doable

the class tree has its own issues

i think some problems are easy to solve

putting cheat death earlier is one example

[oak sky]

Yep

[vestal wren]

just change it with step

problem solved

[oak sky]

Dont love that but ok

Idk how much time there is for changes but i would want to see a more comprehensive class tree rework

[vestal wren]

it would even make sense

subtlety did usually have 2 charges of step, so putting step further down would mean you need to dip more into it

[oak sky]

Yeah but as a sin player i think we were all really excited for double step

If thats the direction it goes, its whatever and weve done it before but it wouldve been nice

[vestal wren]

i think thats making it more of a issue than it rly is

cheat death being deep into sub tree is the issue rly

[oak sky]

Yeah thats an issue

[vestal wren]

because it is so core to rogue

[oak sky]

Why not make imrpoved sprint baseline and put cheat death there

As an example

[vestal wren]

would mean you need a new node for subtlety

[oak sky]

Is that a problem?

[vestal wren]

i don't know

[oak sky]

Plenty of other classes have had similar changes

I work under the assumption that we will get treated similarly to other classes

[vestal wren]

but i think one of the bigger issues is the sub side in general

find weakness seems overpowered on outlaw

and dance is atm a very dominant choice

[oak sky]

Yep

Sub side is really strong

Er looks dead

Thistle tea looks dead

[vestal wren]

the problem is

[oak sky]

Theres so many throughput nodes we don't even know what to do with them

[vestal wren]

if you move dance off the tree you basically create more than one gap

removing fw and dance basically also means NS is redundant for anything that is not subtlety

[oak sky]

Ns works for sin it already existed

[vestal wren]

yes but ns in the tree is 12%

the current NS in the spec tree is far higher

[oak sky]

Personally i think cold blood looks extremely boring

[sick aspen]

tea is just doa for all 3 specs isn't it?

[oak sky]

Yes

For now

[vestal wren]

well it is 5/10% per tooltip

cold blood is also fairly mild yes

so question would be what to put in those nodes

[oak sky]

I wouldnt mind losing dance, then getting MA instead of cold blood as a capstonr

[fallen raven]

all of the button half buttons are ones i don't really want to press right now

[vestal wren]

the suggestions i saw was putting blades on the class tree

[oak sky]

Like maybe MA leggo

Blades like shadowblades?

[fallen raven]

i wouldn't hate that

[vestal wren]

but i feel like having to decide between shadow blades / ER / Tea

does not sound super exciting

[oak sky]

That sounds dogshit

Imo

Thats your main cd garbage as it is

That belongs to your spec

Even moreso than dance

[fallen raven]

hey assa used to have it in... mop?

[sick aspen]

something new would be cool, perfect time for them to get creative

[oak sky]

Dance is something new for the other specs tbf

[vestal wren]

i mean

having all capstons as "meh"

means you have more choice

[oak sky]

I think they should all be good or all be utility

[fallen raven]

does mean i don't feel bad getting vigor

[vestal wren]

putting more utility in does not sound bad

[oak sky]

I wish we could do the shaman thing and grab all the throughput then just pick a bunch of utility stuff

[vestal wren]

but just my personal opinion

[oak sky]

Or even like dh

And pick mostly throughput and a couple utility

[vestal wren]

i like to look at the tree and have options i would personally love to talent into

instead of deciding what is the least bad one from choices i don't want

[oak sky]

Yeah 100%

[vestal wren]

but then, what is exciting and not rly depends on the player

ER is probably the one node that is the most "love it or hate it"

[oak sky]

Yeah

Rn its mostly just worse than dance

And it was always useless on sin so

The main lame thing for sin though is that not being able to go er means we cant get anything in the middle really

So recuperator, imp ambush, acrobatic strikes, elusiveness are all dead talents

[vestal wren]

it will be interesting to see iterations on the tree, in the end its up to the dev team to decide on a direction

[oak sky]

I would be very surprised if our trees don't end up with at least a similar philosophy to otber trees

[vestal wren]

depends

the class tree for sure could be more utility and less dps nodes

for the spec trees, i think we mostly see smaller changes

[oak sky]

Yeah of course

But theres still a good amount of room for improvements, especially for sub

Look at unholy, they got like 8 new talents this build

[vestal wren]

tbh i hope

a lot of questions rly come down to the aims from the dev team

[oak sky]

I could talk about this shit for hours man i would looooove to talk about rogue talents with more people

[royal lantern]

100energy is not worth a talent point

like, its nearly worthless

IF tea would do something like double your energy reg for a while in addition of giving 100 energy? yeha it COULD have some use, but rn its DoA

[vestal wren]

could be just energy cost reduction for X secs

[royal lantern]

i mean, it would result in more or less the same in that case tbh

[vestal wren]

the 3 charges currently could make it okay-ish

but iirc the energy income is fairly high with talent nodes

so you don't rly need it

[royal lantern]

was just a quick brainstorm example to make it somewhat better

[vestal wren]

but i am with you, it would need some changes to be appealing

i think some of the very old rogue players like the talent to come back

for mostly nostalgic reasons

[royal lantern]

"oh thank god, they bring a thing back that has absolutly no use, but muh VANILLA WOW NOSTALGIA!!!!"

reminder that tea never went away

you could always use it

it is just 100%ussules

[sick aspen]

^ def needs something done to it to make it more appealing

[oak sky]

Same logic as cold blood

Unless it works with dots i guess

Either way its kinda boring

[vestal wren]

i think there was a discussion around CB

for working on bleeds

[oak sky]

Yeah thats like ok but

[vestal wren]

would mean constant energy income for sin

but not rly that exciting for sub

[oak sky]

Constant energy

Wdym

But either way i dont think 1 ability critting is particularly interesting

[vestal wren]

nvm

[royal lantern]

said it yesterday to push once

my problem rn is more or less

the rogue tree started really strong

but now that we see other classes get their stuff getting more devolopment and what they can do/chose

rogue feels really bad in comparison

[vestal wren]

i didn't rly change my opinion on the rogue tree tbh

[oak sky]

For the record, even before alpha came out when miz mentioned cold blood as a possible talent i said it sounded ass then too

[vestal wren]

i remember getting pinged from people when saying the choice seems fairly limited

[royal lantern]

its just

when i look at warrior/shaman

and then a rogue

i feel somewhat...cheated?

[oak sky]

Warrior has its own problems tbf

[vestal wren]

all trees have some sort of issue

[royal lantern]

its more about the options warrior has

[vestal wren]

but i think rogue ones are obviouse

[oak sky]

Shaman has too many globals of utility even

[royal lantern]

rogue has imo the worst class tree out of all classes in the game

[vestal wren]

not sure

[oak sky]

Old mage tree

[royal lantern]

CLASS, not spec

[oak sky]

Paladin

Priest

[vestal wren]

druid/priest probably also not that great

[oak sky]

But rogue is pretty dog

[oak sky]

Druid class tree isnt totally doomed

[vestal wren]

didn't get a lot of positive feedback from ferals

[oak sky]

Its mostly all the spec trees for druid that are awful

[vestal wren]

but yes

i think what you discribe is mostly about hype

there is always a bit of a honeymoon phase before people see problems

other class trees just makes it more obviouse

[royal lantern]

we can SOMEWHAT push that aside cus they admited that they have problems with those rn and they are pushed back and see fixes later down the line

[vestal wren]

it seems like their main dev takes a break

[royal lantern]

my problem with the rogue tree is more like, instead of chosing what to do

[vestal wren]

but yes, the focus on DH did leave rogue waiting

[royal lantern]

its "take shadow dance+some other stuff"

cus everything else just sucks and is not even worth a thought rn

[royal lantern]

tbf, i had heavy critic day1, and got more positive cus of dev feedback, that slowly went back into critic again cus it seems like nothing got changed/fixed really

SHADOW DANCE AS A CLASS ABILITY IS A GIANT MISTAKE AND SHOULD NOT EXIST JESUS

[oak sky]

Does seem like we started with the early dk model of a lot of throughput and spec stuff to the full class, with a capstone tailored for each spec

[vestal wren]

i think part of the issue is resource allocation

e.g. realz does a rly good job talking to us

but also him working exclusively on DH does mean no iteration on subtlety

in the same timeframe you have other classes/specs get multiple iterations

besides that, one big thing to keep in mind is that rogue was one of the first trees to release

[oak sky]

Yeah they hadnt figured out their overall philosophy

[vestal wren]

so there was more experience when working on other trees as well as a lot of feedback

i do repeat that quite a bit

in hopes that realz or others share a bit more information

but it is fairly hard to atm give targeted feedback

[royal lantern]

yeha, its just that rn it feels like, the feedback is heared, but nothing happens

[vestal wren]

because the direction/ideas are not clear

[royal lantern]

wich is frustrating

[vestal wren]

there also don't seem to be consistency between classes

some get things that would 100% be a talent node baseline

also how dynamic you are in choice is quite diffrent

amount of utility/dps nodes, etc

e.g. just to mention dh as it is the newest tree

dh gets tank sigils seems quite big to me

[royal lantern]

yep, thats also a big one

many classes get a "here, you get a best-off-all-time"

rogue is "chose 1, cant take anything else"

[oak sky]

Idk ive been feeling like consistency is building

[vestal wren]

i think they probably work towards it

[oak sky]

All the classes that have been getting changes seem more similar to each other

[vestal wren]

but also more communication would be vital

[oak sky]

New trees seem to have a similar model

[vestal wren]

to know what devs think about the trees

and what needs to be changed

[oak sky]

And at the same time i dont think everything needs the exact same philosophy

[vestal wren]

or where feedback is wanted

[oak sky]

But certain things do need to be standardized

[vestal wren]

i think there needs to be a somewhat consistent structure

to know what to expect

like just a simple example

if i rly don't like a talent node

should i be able to skip it?

[oak sky]

Things like overall utility vs throughput balance, how op new shit can be, good pathing, stuff like that should all be standard

[royal lantern]

100%agree man, dont get me wrong

[vestal wren]

if you look at the subtlety tree, you run into that often due to the linear stucture

[royal lantern]

but there should be SOME form of system

cus it felt a bit "we let a class dev do whatever they want"

so we had some classes that where "yeha, you create your normal gameplay loop+1-2 new additions"

[oak sky]

Even though it started that way I think I'm seeing it get better

[vestal wren]

tbh i think that was potentially the idea

to let every dev come up with their vision

[royal lantern]

and other classes that are "here, you get your gameplay loop 3points into the tree and then get 20different old legendary/tier effects"

[vestal wren]

and then try to bring things closer together

and if that the case it might be good

as it allows everyone to be creative

(but also means you need to re-visit a lot of decisions that wouldn't fit once you try to bring concepts closer together)

the ion interview also brought up some questions