its really hard to pick the other 3 point talents
#assassination
brave gyro
also no iron wire? garrote has no silence unless u take it
oak sky
Iron wire is like a REALLY good utility point
vast loom
fuck sbs
adding in these connections from amp poison and twist just give you more options imo
steel ridge
the steep cost for every capstone is intended tho
icy agate
no poison bomb in your aoe builds?
brave gyro
adding in these connections from amp poison and twist just give you more options...
I feel like when poison bomb became 2 points, it kinda bricked the tree for capstones, since now u cant have D-T with anything else, and IC / KB just doesn't have any synergy
oak sky
Thats intentional
brave gyro
no poison bomb in your aoe builds?
only procs from Envenom
grizzled jay
:)
vast loom
yeah thats why i made them 1 single capstone that you just choose
grizzled jay
cursed ER build?
meta ER build if ER gets buffed in any way :^)
well "meta" is a loose term, cause there's a lot of points on the left side that can be moved around
brave gyro
Not going for Zoyd feels so much better pathing wise for m+ :/
vast loom
yeah i can agree with that i just dont know if the value is there
icy agate
only procs from Envenom
ye and thats going to get clicked with amp poison? ye no zoyd in m+ is better
steel ridge
make ER great again
icy agate
we'll see
brave gyro
ye and thats going to get clicked with amp poison? ye no zoyd in m+ is better
why would u go amp poison in m+?
vast loom
getting zold would feel better if Vicious venom maybe applied to FoK too
Amp poison is supposed to be stronger tuning compared to dealdy but maybe not in aoe
icy agate
you can can fok + spread it then hit the stacks while getting poison bombs out
grizzled jay
make ER great again
afaik none of the three specs are even sniffing ER so I think for a talent that is much "harder" to use than Tea or Dance, it should probably get some love
oak sky
Amp poison is supposed to be stronger tuning compared to dealdy but maybe not in...
Its supposed to be better in patchwerk
Deadly should always be better it has a dot
In aoe
grizzled jay
A lot of other classes had stuff like Resounding Clarity just folded into the base talent. I think ER should be that way too, and another 2 pt talent placed above it.
steel ridge
afaik none of the three specs are even sniffing ER so I think for a talent that ...
i am sniffing ER
brave gyro
shit will never stack enough to be worth for M+ imo
vast loom
this could be stronger for sure if you swap in amp poison for vosses
steel ridge
but i made a suggestion this morning to improve the secondary points spend by introducing a cooldown reduction into the minigame - like reduce its cd by 5 seconds for each consumed animacharge @grizzled jay
or something along those lines
oak sky
A lot of other classes had stuff like Resounding Clarity just folded into the ba...
Thats actually not true like every covenant ability in other trees has a node below to get the covenant legendary
grizzled jay
no way VR is less dps than 1 Dashing pt
grizzled jay
Thats actually not true like every covenant ability in other trees has a node be...
I meant things like the Grappling talent from Outlaw just became baseline with the ability
Sepsis and SBS don't have any legendary effects for them
vast loom
you mean this?
oak sky
Yeah, and if they did it would be a node below
Just like rc
Literally look at arcane mage
Look at any shaman tree
Look at paladin
icy agate
no way VR is less dps than 1 Dashing pt
i think 1pt in VR, 1/3 dashing scoundrel and flying daggers is bettter than 3 in dashing scoundrel
grizzled jay
Literally look at arcane mage
its a 1 pt talent lol
grizzled jay
LMAOO
oak sky
But its below the ability
grizzled jay
ER legendary for 2 pts is just horrible allocation is my point. should be looked at.
oak sky
Yeah it could definitely be er legendary for 1 point
grizzled jay
poggies
oak sky
But its not getting baked into er ever
Unless the overall design philosophy for every class changes
oak sky
Which could happen but doesnt seem likely
grizzled jay
Unless the overall design philosophy for every class changes
the fact some are 1, some are 2, and some don't get any i think shows there isn't a clear design philosophy
oak sky
Not getting any is fine
The ones that get the points are mostly the ones that get extra functionality from it as far as i can tell
Like the ones that are the only reason the ability is good in some scenario or just in general
Some of the conduits seem like they should be baked in though
grizzled jay
Toxic Onslaught was super strong. actually surprising it doesn't exist seeing as all 3 specs share Sepsis.
oak sky
Vendetta doesnt exist anymore
Also i think it would be cringe as fuck to permanently give every spec away to get the cd from the other 2
But thats more of an aside
grizzled jay
Jack of All Trades as a capstone? pog
steel ridge
jack of all trades lmao that would be insane for class tree đ
put it where thistle tea is
grizzled jay
not as insane as what others are getting tbh lol
oak sky
I would rather have thistle tea and never take it all expansion than have jack of all trades lmao
grizzled jay
but what would outlaw and sub do with deathmark?
could special code it to copy BtE off the top of my head. probably some others.
steel ridge
thats pretty farfetched
fleet whale
Make BoTE a capstone
steel ridge
not another active for gods sake
fleet whale
I mean people have been complaining for a while now that wow didnât have enough buttons
fleet whale
I remember when BFA was called âbattle for abilitiesâ
steel ridge
not looking for more buttons but more different builds
fleet whale
More buttons= higher complexity. Or something like that
steel ridge
contrary to popular believe, more buttons dont necessarily make your gameplay better 
you want interesting buttons that do fancy stuff, not useless buttons that do literally nothing but add another modifier on top of your modifier
soft shale
dont worry you can enjoy the wonders of wrath feral once again soon
if you want some buttons
steel ridge
limber lion
meta ER build if ER gets buffed in any way :^)
well "meta" is a loose term, ca...
Trust me when I say this
but Assassination will never play Echoing Reprimand
getting higher cp finishers doesn't do much at all for us
bleak sky
7cp envenoms 
limber lion
would have to buff it by quite a bit
bleak sky
classes removed from the game, you now get 1 giant talent tree and build your own class
fleet anchor
I remember when BFA was called âbattle for abilitiesâ
Only thing I ever heard it be called was Beta for Azeroth đ
Which turned out to be correct pretty much the whole way through!
copper hazel
classes removed from the game, you now get 1 giant talent tree and build your ow...
the poe in wow dream
twilit hollow
main solar
wasn't there something during SL beta where ER was still meh even if it was like 10 or 20 CPs? It was only useful because it was a cheap energy costing CP builder that could hit pretty hard.
limber lion
Yeah pretty much. It hasn't been super great for Assa pretty much ever
ER saw many numerical changes during CN as well, it wasn't really played on any spec until they buffed the initial damage of it quite a bit.
bleak sky
welcome back to green
final star
viscid spear
@limber lion đ„Š
limber lion
đ
celest holly
hi, do you think assa is a viable specc for s4 in m+? i enjoy playing rogue and sin the most. :/ im so sad
subtle tundra
bleak sky
hi, do you think assa is a viable specc for s4 in m+? i enjoy playing rogue and ...
sure
it is viable
subtle tundra
ill tell you in s4 buddy
winter hill
viable sure. worse than sub also yes
limber lion
Worst melee in the game? Maybe
celest holly
damn ;D you know any good streamer who plays sin in m+? maybe i can understand my role better. cant reach same dps than wl/sv, so maybe its more ST to focus prio targets?
limber lion
Except with Wo leaving the game, shroud is infinitely useful again
bleak sky
Worst melee in the game? Maybe
there's still feral druid!
winter hill
i mean you can't really expect to reach same numbers as destro,sv or ww monk. it is more st oriented for sure
limber lion
there's still feral druid!
Feral is better than Assa in m+ :(
subtle tundra
Feral is better than Assa in m+ :(
cap
limber lion
bleak sky
bleak sky
https://tenor.com/view/fish-eating-fish-eating-from-spoon-feeding-fish-fish-food-yngqis-gif-20301545
oak sky
@limber lion fucking pog great to see you back on the team
oak sky
Always good to see a dad return with some cigarettes 
viscid spear
Always good to see a dad return with some cigarettes <:happy_holiday_pepe:908087...
Where's the milk tho
viscid spear
Crimson is for real folks
oak sky
Yessir
oak sky
Name is yellow 
obtuse robin
blue before that
oak sky
Assa player more like monk player amirite folyr?
balmy condor
i am assa player yes
Jailer pull count?
kindred crescent
I know snapshotting but what is overhanging?
balmy condor
A lot of employers look for that
oak sky
Daps the jailer expert
fallow canopy
every wipe is a learning opportunity and he knows a lot
balmy condor
I know snapshotting but what is overhanging?
Overhang is the concept that the bleeds donât go back to normal when vendetta finishes
ebon notch
A lot of employers look for that
kindred crescent
oh cool thank you @balmy condor
balmy condor
So you refresh the bleeds before the vendetta drops, that way they hang over after the vendetta falls off
subtle tundra
Assa player more like monk player amirite folyr?
no, i timed my first 30 on rogue today!
depleted 2 more after(very sad)
oak sky
oak sky
My highest this season is a 21 i think
Maybe a 22 or 23
I have NO idea
Next season i will play
oak sky
I could maybe push for the remaining 2 months of my summer
But like i want to play league and valorant
subtle tundra
unless you go for title, its not worth imo
for fun only is ok
but like not big time investment shit
and dont pug
ebon notch
@balmy condor uh where is whispyr
spice spire
subtle tundra
that inappropriate
spice spire
Less inappropriate than your builds 
balmy condor
The off topic meme lords got me good boys
limber lion
@balmy condor good evening, cum.
balmy condor
<@167090536602140682> good evening, cum.
twilit hollow
viscid spear
I'm afraid to ask
balmy condor
I'm afraid to ask
I thought this would be a good idea
fleet whale
Exsanguinate
viscid spear
I thought this would be a good idea
Sir this is #Assassination, idk who you are but @balmy condor gonna be mad
balmy condor
Exsanguinate
AND JUST LIKE THAT IM FREE
bleak sky
I thought this would be a good idea
This image is only valid in OT please go back to cum
royal lantern
Exsanguinate is better tbh
viscid spear
Exsanguinate is better tbh
night delta
First,
discombobulateexsanguinate. Dazed, exsanguinate. Distract target. Exsanguinate. Block his blind jab, exsanguinate. He'll attempt wild haymaker. Exsanguinate.
brazen zodiac
...
echo cargo
l o l
distant mesa
Thoughts on Necrolord Raiding? I've never played Venthyr
hollow river
Thoughts on Necrolord Raiding? I've never played Venthyr
it's fine, just a little behind on pure ST fights
its good for Panth and Lords
distant mesa
I'm 255 we were going to do fated raids Tuesday but I wanted to see if it was going to be bad
hollow river
im not really sure tbh, but if you're only doing heroic and stuff it shouldn't be an issue for sure
255 will likely be kinda low for mythic fated i'd assume
distant mesa
I dont think we were going to touch Mythic
hollow river
yeah you should be ok
venthyr would techincally be better for the majority of fights
but don't think necro is super far behind or anything
slow marsh
same
distant mesa
I cant find a opener for Necro that slaps anymore, oldest one I see is with SoD gems
spice spire
Nothing changed 
Except if you go Subterfuge, itâs garrote > SnD and youâll just have to swing an envenom in later
distant mesa
And its saying top run a totally different Leggo lol
distant mesa
just double checking :), thank you for the help. trying to get my opener down now
prolly muscle memorized that wrong too
strange python
can you get daggers in outlaw loot spec?
Thinking about just staying outlaw loot spec
fleet whale
nah sadly you can't daggers if you are in outlaw loot spec
which is a little silly since using a dagger offhand for outlaw is fine
dense herald
Has there been much feedback on cold blood and MFD being âoff to the sideâ choices that could be picked if wanted rather than having to talent it to get to the other nodes?
I think that would be the play right?
main solar
Pretty sure Realz has mentioned he's heard the feedback and kind of feels the same way a bit. Though I don't believe he's mentioned exactly how or if he'll actually tackle it.
There's supposed to be more talent tree stuff this next update, so we'll see I guess.
strange python
maybe we get connectors? 
main solar
God I hope so
strange python
could honestly put a connector inbetween the three point nodes
and make it so you have to put in three points to allocate it
would be great
main solar
eh, not sure any more 3 pt talents are a good idea. They feel bad in general.
strange python
they are generally disliked a lot but are necessary in vertical trees
but thats why vertical trees feel like shit compared to horizontal ones like shaman or even paladin
main solar
More 1 pt talents spread out so you have to choose between some utility is probably the best, just not sure there's a lot of room to come up with more pure utility for a class like rogue who shared so much between all 3 specs already and serve only one purpose (dps)
Most likely why the tree is so vertical and loaded with thru put to begin with.
strange python
pretty much all spec trees (not base class trees) for dps are pure throughput
but something like this
is infinitely more fun to tinker around with
than this
even sub/outlaw only require 4pt investment for capstones vs 5/6 on assa
strange python
im not saying it wasnt done on purpose im saying it makes the tree worse
vast loom
i still firmly belive that my single 3x choice node is bis đ
maybe not bis
but gives us a lot more choice
gusty mirage
im not saying it wasnt done on purpose im saying it makes the tree worse
and how would you improve it and manage to prevent people from getting DTB & Kingsbane
strange python
with how binary dtb is, I dont honestly believe it can be balanced properly
vast loom
i even downloaded stupid talent tree editor lol
strange python
its holding the entire tree back
dense herald
Yeah I really donât think it makes it worse, if you can pick kb and dtb it means both need to be less impactful and less strong come tuning
stuck knoll
is infinitely more fun to tinker around with
regardless if there's 50 connectors or 5 there will be a best build people follow for content
main solar
only 3 capstones and being limited on what to take isn't necessarily bad, but some of the higher parts of the tree with lack of branching could use some work
vast loom
if you could get both they would always be tuned such that you would need both
dense herald
I love the idea of picking one capstone and it really securing a playstyle
vast loom
that IC should be in the choice node but this program wont let you do that lol
gusty mirage
yeah that's why@vast loom 's suggestion is a good one if you hate how it plays out now, you can converge both paths into a choice node
vs "this is worse"
vast loom
the only bad part of this
"Bad"
is you cant take IC and kingsbane
but now you can do stuff like Dashing KB, or Zold DTB
or even zold + dashing IC
it also gives you the ability to skip the Mutilate stuff on the left and the lethal dose stuff on the right (idk why you would skip LD tho)
dense herald
The problem with that suggestion is then youâre gonna pick what is tuned best
With how it currently is, sure one of them will likely be a stronger talent, but youâre kinda picking the rest of the pathway which blurs the lines of âwhat is betterâ
vast loom
with this tho you arnt locked into any path. with the current tree on alpha if you want KB, you have 8 required points behind it
twilit hollow
The problem with that suggestion is then youâre gonna pick what is tuned best
Wi...
no matter how the talent trees are laid out its going to be "pick whats best" sim it, play around it, forget it
vast loom
^
dense herald
Yes but then I honestly think that a bit of a path avoids just picking the best simmed talents
vast loom
all choice is an illusion in the world of "meta" gaming
dense herald
Yeah but when you have an execute build that doubles down on rear-ended dps, it could sim worse but still have its uses
strange python
if you have four capstones like some other specs, two of which you can mix at any time it avoids the situation where you only go for one set of talents for a type of content
vast loom
Oh yeah for sure
main solar
there will 100% be simming to determine our build, the problem is when its the entire tree.
dense herald
Thatâs why I think they should focus on different damage patterns
vast loom
its just that 99% of people dont care about "dmg profiles" they care about big number
Bigger Number Better Player
main solar
if its just determining the final capstone, but there's still a bit of leeway depending on content type, thats fine
dense herald
Thatâs fine, they can choose a higher simming high uptime sustained dps profile, but then a more bursty or execute playstyle may end up being better
On certain fights
main solar
but right now, there's the lack of choice all the way down the tree
spice spire
Thereâs two deviations of choice
dense herald
I think too much freedom is an issue because it takes away from the ability to invest points into a certain build. Too much freedom will just be a mix and match of all the strongest talents and will lead to a neither here nor there build
spice spire
Theyâre not optimal, but by a lower percent than people make them out to be
vast loom
Im also thinking that we might spend way too many points in the uppersection of the tree
main solar
Just look at everyone's posted suggested trees. They're all pretty close to being the same, and where they're different is actually just a matter of how tuning ends up being
vast loom
well not way
strange python
You don't have to give people entirely horizontal trees and too much freedom, you can just adopt sub or outlaw trees with plenty of one pointers and choice nodes at the 20 point mark leading to 4 pt investment capstones
dense herald
If thereâs more pathways added the same thing will happen, people will pick the highest simming talents, itâs just an illusion of more choice
main solar
I haven't looked too much into outlaw's honestly, but sub is a good example of how the tree should be structured imo
dense herald
Imo trees should double down on a few play styles and damage patterns that can be used in different scenarios (ie sustained and consistent damage if you can have high uptime, bursty, execute, aoe, cleave) and then focus on single point talents that can be picked depending on the scenarios off to the sides of the trees (kinda like they have done with exang, CT etc)
main solar
and I don't see much outside criticism about it because the talents in assassination's tree are actually pretty cool and fun, so they don't think anything bad about being forced into most of those picks
strange python
A talent becomes substantially less fun when it costs three points
grizzled jay
I am fine with each spec's tree designed different, as long as the same care is given to each spec when designed
vast loom
Choice 1: EP or CTTC
Choice 2: how do i spend the remaining 7 points to benfit my ST build. (lethal dose and improved poisons)
Choice 3: Click on KB```You forgot whether you have to be the Atrophic Poison bitch or not and give up a thru point talent for that. (not that its bad design to have to make that choice, but its one of the few choices we have to make in the tree)
wooden aurora
For single target is there anything to try to aim to do to maximize elaborate planning dmg outside of cd phase or should I just aim for increased uptime kind of like envenom?
kindred oriole
that IC should be in the choice node but this program wont let you do that lol
Great job btw, like it!
distant mesa
Rogue -> Annadorsa I know LFR prolly inst the place to test rotation and stuff, but does this opener seem ok? https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/t8cZ7kMx6dqWpCYN/#fight=last&type=damage-done both the Halondrius wipe and kill is what I'm looking at. only seem to have issues with "effective refresh" on both garrote and rupture according to WowAnalyzer, but I thought you could update the bleeds in the pandemic windows with no issues?
like that seems weird to me
like this even shows its ok to refresh, but is red?
main blaze
Not sure which site that is. But it says 6s before the pandemic window.
distant mesa
Wowanalyzer
that doesn't make a lot of since, I'm refreshing when Rupture is <7s Garrote <5s
distant mesa
that would make a lot of sense then
vast loom
1st thing i notice is you dont open with mutilate out of stealth
distant mesa
in the 4p windows in trying to refresh at <2
Necro opens bonespike no?
guide I saw showed that anyway I could be wrong, that why I'm here to learn đ
vast loom
Im not 100% but i doubt you would open with it since its only 2 cp if it crits vs 4 from a mutilate. I also see you are running subterfuge in ST, i doubt that is the bis choice here same with poison bomb, with 4p we almost always take CT in ST
distant mesa
even as Necro O.o
vast loom
Master Assassin is very important for our vend windows
id sim a top gear
and select talents
drifting cloud
please dont spread bad info if you dont know what youre saying
compact wing
You should just correct the info instead of being passive aggressive.
gusty mirage
https://www.wowanalyzer.com/report/t8cZ7kMx6dqWpCYN/7-LFR+Halondrus+the+Reclaime...
don't use wowanalyzer
wowanalyzer hasn't been updated since like 8.1
distant mesa
I mean, he's helping me doesnt feel very aggresive to me
distant mesa
don't use wowanalyzer
ok, thanks
distant mesa
ah
drifting cloud
alot of stuff changes for assa in this patch when you play necro instead of venth
gusty mirage
ok, thanks
Imma make you a thread for your log if you're okay with that
distant mesa
Sure
gusty mirage
that way all the info is in one central location that you can revisit
GGs Log Review
distant mesa
I dont see a guide for Necro like literally anywhere outside of digging in logs and 1 9.1 guide in SoD I followed
drifting cloud
yeah necro is just the worst covenant on st by alot, due to the fact that unity for necro on ST is like a 20 dps legendary
2 extra bolts thats all you get in a st encounter
brazen zodiac
oxi!
limber lion
yeah necro is just the worst covenant on st by alot, due to the fact that unity ...
Well let's not get ahead of ourselves
Kyrian is still worse than Necro
Kyrian will pull ahead of Necro in season 4 with double EoN, by like 200 dps, but currently it's still behind the Maldraxxian might
visual kiln
hey guys, i'm checking a log and the guy doesn't seem to be using slice and dice at all not even in the opener once, is it possible to have it pre fight or is he just inting?
hollow river
hey guys, i'm checking a log and the guy doesn't seem to be using slice and dice...
if you're getting really long pull timers and playing mfd yeah it's possible
visual kiln
if you're getting really long pull timers and playing mfd yeah it's possible
then it should appear under buffs right? cuz it doesn't
limber lion
It does not if you use it pre-pull.
thin trout
!wip
visual kiln
interesting, thanks!
limber lion
Unfortunately the combat logging works in funny ways sometimes where it doesn't recognize any ongoing buffs unless specifically accounted for.
visual kiln
I see
limber lion
But yeah using snd prepull is not super great, I would not do that.
Kinda messes up your rotation for 10 potential dps
visual kiln
we were doing 15-25s pull timers
limber lion
And more often than not just causes you to do less dps because you mess your rotation up
Just do the normal opener.
visual kiln
cool, thanks!!
thin trout
so with the 25% buff on Scars of Fraternal Strife - since i've never really used this trinket, do we micro manage this? or just keep it on 4 stacks or macro it with evrey ability we have so we use it on CD?
RIP IQD nerf
jaunty crystal
The idea of kyrian sin just feels so bad lol
balmy condor
so with the 25% buff on Scars of Fraternal Strife - since i've never really used...
On cooldown is fine
thin trout
u need to press it 5x to get the biggest buff/explosion buff right? so it will allign with a flag/vendetta only on the second time?
thin trout
do we know how much stats they give at mythic version? so itemlvl 311 (that's mythic season 4 rite?)
if i use wowhead to scale no numbers are shown =p
vestal wren
exsanguinate on cooldown
thin trout
yo @vestal wren in your current sim for venthyr assassination from your sheet (https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/c81zUS5iQr76gjLV9JzHYq/simc) i'm looking at the Final Rune uptime and it's 29.5 second, is this beause you simmed for 5 minutes? And we would get the second final rune at ~5:00 to 5:30 mark? Would that increase/decrease values based on fight lengths?
thin trout
something seems to be weird with the runes smming wise:
thaat can't be correct innit?
vestal wren
not rly
actions.cds+=/use_item,name=scars_of_fraternal_strife,if=!buff.scars_of_fraternal_strife_4.up|fight_remains<30
it uses the runes because the fight is about to end
what leads to additional rune uptime
thin trout
aaah, so do you stay with 4 runes up until basicall the last 30 seconds?
balmy condor
vestal wren
hmm
balmy condor
so you can just sit on a buff?
vestal wren
when re-running on 5 min, it has all buffs in the list
you basically can stack them
and if you activate the final rune you gain a boost for 30 secs but go back to no rune after
this is why it basically just stacks them up
thin trout
in the previous one it had fist and second as constant buffs - when you equip the trinket it gives you 'the first rune' - when you use the trinket for the first time, it gives you 'the second rune' - it then goes on a 30 second cooldown until you can use it again to get 'the third rune' and then another 30 seconds un til it gets 'the gourth rune' - then the sim doesnt use the trinket anymore until the last 30 seconds of the fight - IF however you can use the 'final rune' twice in a fight, is it worth it to use it on CD or just stick to the above rule?
vestal wren
and then uses final when the fight is close to be over
it is basically better to keep the benefits from 1-4 up
instead of losing them and re-stack
vestal wren
List of the benefits: The First Rune - Your Haste is increased by 68. 10% of damage you take will echo again 3 sec later. The Second Rune - Your Versatility is increased by 68. All Healing you take is reduced by 5%. The Third Rune - Your Critical Strike is increased by 68. You are bleeding for 456 damage every 2 sec. The Fourth Rune - Your Mastery is increased by 68. Your spells and abilities reduce your movement speed by 2% for 15 sec, stacking up to 10 times. The Final Rune - Your Critical Strike, Haste, Mastery, and Versatility are increased by 136. When the Final Rune fades, explode for 9082 damage. 30 seconds remaining.
(and downsides)
thin trout
just small micromanagement needed then
so does this mean we get high value from PI again for the final Rune? đ
balmy condor
vestal wren
funny thing is, that probably even when just cycling through it (use on cd)
it still remains bis
the first non-scars trinket combination is -1%, the loss from not playing it propper is 0.7%, so still 0.3% ahead
rigid tartan
actually pog that i randomly got it on 285 on one of our kills then
thin trout
what about if you use it on CD and you don't get 2 uses out of it?
worst case would be 4:30 fights then?
thin trout
wait i can't calculate, if you use evryething on CD the final rune comes at 1:30 in the fight
which is kinda meh because you want to use it with vendetta/flag i suppose
vestal wren
it would line it up with vendetta on ~2 min
thin trout
damn PI on 3 min cd đą
vestal wren
and then around 4:10
with pi, moment
seems to become more neutral
seems like extra effort compared to just keeping rune 1-4 up
thin trout
yeahp
looks like it will be running 4 runes until u use the last vendetta of the fight
pseudo hamlet
If Vendetta is ending, you have 5 CP, CT and Rupture is going to fall off - which one is better to reapply?
I am usually trying to fit that last empowered Rupture at the last seconds of Vendetta window.
balmy condor
rupture
night delta
Yeah rupture is more damage per CP, more damage per EP, more DPS on the DoT and it even triggers venomous wounds
oblique smelt
probably dumb af question but i don't see it in the FAQ where do we fit SnD in to opener?
night delta
First finisher usually
oblique smelt
So Flag > Rupture > MfD > CT > Vendetta > Shiv > Vanish > Mutilate > Envenom > Mutilate > SnD?
night delta
No I meant finisher as in CP spender
oblique smelt
based on the opener in the FAQ that would be the earliest point assuming the first casts of the fight is Mutilate > Garrote > Rupture
balmy condor
based on the opener in the FAQ that would be the earliest point assuming the fir...
The opener in the FaQ assumes you mut snd mut to start
The typical opener
oblique smelt
Alright might be decent to put that in there, last time i played Assa rogue SnD wasn't a thing
oblique smelt
limber lion
seems like extra effort compared to just keeping rune 1-4 up
While you're at it, can you remove the fight remains condition from the final rune? How big of a loss is it to never use the final rune?
vestal wren
oh, thats interessting
limber lion
I'm currently in a bus in the middle of nowhere on my phone so I can't sim it
I'm all for forgetting about the trinket instead of gambling for perfect TTD
spice spire
vestal wren
seems to be not worth it
oh wait,moment letme double check if i fucked up the "no final rune" sim
no, should be fine
limber lion
Wtf that's massive
So if you forget to press it 20s before fight ends, it's better to just not play the trinket at all
Very interesting lol
vestal wren
the sim atm gets full benefits of the final rune for 30 secs
so the diffrence above is more about stacking
vestal wren
yes ~1 %
vestal wren
as i mentioned above, even if you use it "on cd" you would still win out
limber lion
What about syncing the final rune with the last cast of Vend/Flag in an encounter?
This trinket gets a bit extensive haha
vestal wren
that could be a gain
vestal wren
like vendetta sync is already +-0
spice spire
More buttons = bad, Cev!!!
limber lion
like vendetta sync is already +-0
Yeh, I'd imagine syncing the very last cast of each would be a gain
vestal wren
yep
quick change i did, maybe need a bit more refinement
actions.cds+="/use_item,name=scars_of_fraternal_strife,if=!buff.scars_of_fraternal_strife_4.up|buff.scars_of_fraternal_strife_4.up&cooldown.vendetta.remains<=0&fight_remains<=60|fight_remains<=30"
limber lion
Yeah looks pretty good, maybe syncing it with Flag instead could be a miniscule gain as well, just because of the 30s duration compared to Vendetta's 20s.
But nice thanks for the sims!
I was already going mad because this trinket sims so well after the buffs, but it looks pretty interesting after all
subtle tundra
i hate debuffs i hate debuffs i hate debuffs
subtle tundra
"so why did you die, varas?"
"ah, trinket"
vestal wren
haha
subtle tundra
i mean on shriekwing ill play it for sure
vestal wren
i can look into flag sync later, now need to go afk for a while
limber lion
i mean on shriekwing ill play it for sure
Good luck dodging the swipe every time and moving behind the boss when echoing shit starts
But yeh the movement speed is the biggest deal breaker for me
Healers can always heal the damage
That's their job
subtle tundra
im matrix
limber lion
Could use some Evokers to boost the movement speed
velvet nacelle
i'm kinda sad that the ravenholdt site isn't maintained/current but i also don't wanna volunteer to do it, so i get it
viscid spear
I could volunteer for the Twitter account 
I use Twitter a bunch
balmy condor
i'm kinda sad that the ravenholdt site isn't maintained/current but i also don't...
Weâre getting back to maintaining it
Just reworked the whole website from scratch
velvet nacelle
oh nice
if you guys need help with like backend architecture let me know đ
also, does anyone have a link to 9.2.7 dps rankings?
i just wanna glance at it and i can't find anything on the googz
balmy condor
doesn't exist
velvet nacelle
yeah, that seems to be a fair conclusion. never this hard to find it this close to a patch when it does exist
i usually play assassination or sub for raid and outlaw for M+ but i'm thinking this season i just do one, just wanted to glance at the list if it existed
oh and look at that, an announcement about the website rework on the announcements channel. my bad
copper hazel
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
copper hazel
you can look in here for some sim comparisons between rogue specs
shell ivy
any of u good with weak auras?
maybe theres already a wa doing this but is there a way to track the difference of the 4pc bleeds and normal one
limber lion
maybe theres already a wa doing this but is there a way to track the difference ...
:)
limber lion
The only thing it doesn't track is the pandemic of the bleed after Vendetta.
copper hazel
didnt even have to !cev to summon him
shell ivy
is it only doing it during vendeta?
limber lion
So you still have to let your bleeds drop after Vendetta.
limber lion
is it only doing it during vendeta?
It's garrote/rupture weak auras that update their pandemic automatically during Vendetta and out of Vendetta.
I mean it works outside of Vendetta and during Vendetta
But no, there is no good way of making it remove pandemic for the bleeds that you apply for the overhang and that you want to drop.
But you shouldn't need one for that
this weak aura does everything else already.
strange python
Do you guys like the assassination dragonflight talents?
and the reg rogue talents?
im excited for kingsbane returning
vast loom
Theres a lot of good things main issue is lack of choice in sin tree
spice spire
Right now itâs not great
vast loom
The tree is very verticle
Like if you want KB you have 2 paths to get there you either take cttc or ep
vestal wren
you need to take to many talents you don't necessary want atm
vast loom
Or for IC its 1 path all the way down to carnage
vast loom
Compare it to the paths/route you could take to get say any capstone in the BM tree
balmy condor
more pathways would be a good start
strange python
i mean
subtle tundra
when do they usually update the alpha?
strange python
did you guys play classic or vanilla?
balmy condor
right now it's very "run down the left/right side"
balmy condor
when do they usually update the alpha?
tuesday/wednesdays
subtle tundra
cool
strange python
these talent tree's are way better than the old ones
balmy condor
well yes
strange python
i feel like there's a lot of cool things in it
balmy condor
vanilla talent trees are dogshit
strange python
ye
subtle tundra
these talent tree's are way better than the old ones
well, ofc, vanilla was almost 20 years ago lmao
vast loom
I hope its better design than the one they made 18 years ago
vestal wren
these talent tree's are way better than the old ones
the old trees had very little impactful nodes
strange python
no but seriously i think this is happy
balmy condor
we are happy
strange python
good*
balmy condor
we're just hungry for better
strange python
would it be brokenk if like
you know how there's a node and it slopes down to another node?
what if you could reverse up to a node?
instead of going down a node?
does that make sense?
vast loom
We also don't have anything else to really critique atm so all of our focus is on the ttee
vestal wren
the tree will be the main system in 10.0
vast loom
Unless you have alpha
strange python
even the professions have tree's
balmy condor
what if you could reverse up to a node?
the trees are locked to go straight down
vestal wren
so if the tree is not decently well polished, you will be potentially stuck with that for a while
strange python
what if they werent locked to go straight down
subtle tundra
give me dragon expeditions, where i go around and collect dragon bones and fight against A.I. that gives me dragon power
strange python
would that improve things?
balmy condor
sure, but it would also break every tree
they would have to redesign literally everything
cerulean junco
What would you guys think about death from above coming back?
balmy condor
What would you guys think about death from above coming back?
not for sin
vestal wren
What would you guys think about death from above coming back?
wont, and only would work for sub
cerulean junco
What if the finisher was envenom or dispatch for other specs
vestal wren
and even for sub, would need more nodes helping it
balmy condor
then we still wouldn't want it
vast loom
What would you guys think about death from above coming back?
Realz talked about it in outlaw a few days ago
royal lantern
not for sin
isnt it avaible in pvp for assa?
cerulean junco
True
balmy condor
sin envenoms 
cerulean junco
I mean that can be fixed with number tuning
cerulean junco
Lol
balmy condor
I'm personally very happy leaving envenom as a filler spell
not every rogue spec needs to do eviscerate damage
strange python
I'm just happy kingsbane is back
cerulean junco
Yeah I can see that
royal lantern
exsanguinate should be the only real finisher tbh
balmy condor
shut the fuck up tryan
royal lantern
đ„Č
vast loom
Kb is very hype for a lot of people
strange python
i loved it
vestal wren
evi does not even do that high damage atm
royal lantern
evi does not even do that high damage atm
rogue in general doesnt really have the "finishers are big dmg" thing rn
strange python
i wish i could get both dragon tempered blades and kingsbane
god that'd make me so happy
royal lantern
will never happen
balmy condor
the dev made sure you couldn't do that
strange python
i know
royal lantern
cus that would be a balance trap
balmy condor
2
balmy condor
ye
vast loom
i wish i could get both dragon tempered blades and kingsbane
Issue with that is then you would never not pick both which means we have like 28 points locked in
strange python
ah that
royal lantern
no, even without it, they simply wont do it because it would make balancing KB impossible
cerulean junco
Was talking about legions death from above btw not the current pvp version
strange python
everything's fine
subtle tundra
poison bomb being envenom only is so sad, cause i'd like to get the capstone from that row in m+ but poison bomb would be dogshit in m+
balmy condor
Was talking about legions death from above btw not the current pvp version
yeh, that's the one that either sub should get, or should just be laid to rest
strange python
what else would you make poisons bomb pair with?
nothing else makes sense
except maybe shiv
royal lantern
all finishers?
vast loom
All finishers like it used to be
cerulean junco
yeh, that's the one that either sub should get, or should just be laid to rest
Yeah I can see that. Maybe instead of sec tec
balmy condor
I mean it was on rupture as well for every iteration until last week
royal lantern
it was rupture and envenom
subtle tundra
its just very bad for aoe like it is now
royal lantern
so you could proc it for aoe aswell when you did rupture spreading
balmy condor
its just very bad for aoe like it is now
good
balmy condor
you can take it with kingsbane as well
at least 1 point
but "do you take X" is just tuning questions
maybe you always take it
maybe you never take it
cerulean junco
I would like sin to have a burst aoe option that is not dots for dungeon content. Carnage only work every 90 seconds and itâs still dots
cerulean junco
To often up viability
strange python
id probably go poison bomb and kingsbane
vast loom
We will have dance for every pack too which helps our aoe a good bit with MA I assume
cerulean junco
More damage profile options
strange python
seems like a winning combination
spice spire
That is very not woah
balmy condor
but why does a dot spec need to also do instant damage, and aoe instant damage
if you want instant aoe just play sub
that's the design
subtle tundra
make carnage 1 min 
balmy condor
why does every spec need to do everything
cerulean junco
make carnage 1 min <:peepomad:585733840954458124>
That would be nice
strange python
do rogues on live have shadow dance and shadow step?
balmy condor
sub has dance
cerulean junco
It doesnât have to do be able to do everything
balmy condor
sub/sin has step
vast loom
Does CB buff only the primary bleed from IC or all of them?
strange python
its cool assassination gets access to shadowdance
royal lantern
why does every spec need to do everything
people are used to playing mage/warlock/druid man đ
cerulean junco
Itâs not like changing the entire toolkit itâs just maybe one ability on a 30-45 CD as an option.
strange python
do you take echoing reprimand and deeper strategem to maximize poisonm bomb i take it?
royal lantern
echoing is a meme for assa
strange python
o ok
vestal wren
why does every spec need to do everything
problem is when one spec has high deficites
like e.g. subtlety is atm rly bad in low target situations
royal lantern
o ok
envenom does not really do high dmg so 7cp doesnt really do anything, your bleeds just have a longer duration, not more dmg
aka
ER is really bad for assa
vestal wren
and it does not rly give subtlety any benefits, just negative things
subtle tundra
yea but sub is also the premium funnel spec
vestal wren
it would be fine if all specs in the game work like this
but having other classes/specs do everything well, idk
balmy condor
you see the same arguments with how fast sin plays
everyone wants every spec to be slow and fast and dots and instant damage and burst and sustained and utility
all at once
royal lantern
i know what whispr means, and its 100%legit and i agree, but the problem is that not all classes/specs fall under that rule with "yeha, it can do X but struggles with Y"
balmy condor
just like specs have a niche
vestal wren
i am fine with niches
but my argument is, that if you have niches, you would need to have the potential to shine
and subtlety is in a sense not providing that
royal lantern
yea but sub is also the premium funnel spec
not really tbh
vestal wren
same with sin in aoe
balmy condor
that's a problem with other class designs though
vestal wren
pacing is diffrent, as you can control it
balmy condor
we should be trying to move everything else towards niches
not homogenize the rogue specs
vestal wren
sin can be slow and still do good damage, thats just tuning
royal lantern
we should be trying to move everything else towards niches
trust me, i 100%agree
vestal wren
yes, i agree
royal lantern
we are just to humble and think to much about the overall health of the game man
cerulean junco
Agree
vestal wren
but i also think that a nice should be strong enough to justify the trade off
night delta
and subtlety is in a sense not providing that
I feel like subtelty's niche should be the ability to start off incredibly hard-hitting, or enabling others to hit hard
vestal wren
what is atm not the case always
royal lantern
while 90%of the playerbase just wants to be the protagonist that is always #1
balmy condor
saying "oh but other classes don't have niches, so we shouldn't either" is just giving up at the start
but idk
I get it
everyone wants to be op everywhere all the time
night delta
think good old ambush and the armor reducing finisher thing
vestal wren
its not about being op
subtle tundra
not really tbh
it literally does, the only reason it wasnt talked about this season was overtuned classes which are getting nerfed
vestal wren
its more about being noticable worse instead of still being ok
in frequent situations
because atm you get punished for this while not making up elsewhere
royal lantern
it literally does, the only reason it wasnt talked about this season was overtun...
dude, the problem with sub funnel is: you either do somewhat higher ST dmg and litearlly 0 aoe at all, or you do medium aoe
the big "funnel" is not really value at all
subtle tundra
cap
vestal wren
funnel esp. in m+ also competes with burst
balmy condor
I agree funnel isn't value atm
balmy condor
should be tuned higher
royal lantern
yes, there are situations where you want a target to die faster, but right now sub simply doesnt shine there
subtle tundra
literally the only reason sub was meta in s2
vestal wren
so, i am all for giving specs niches. perfect imbalance is the best design goal
but also, tuning need to be more aggressive to get there
royal lantern
why the hell do you bring up season2 right now
when we talk about sub in its current state
subtle tundra
yes?????
royal lantern
and even back in s2, you didnt pick sub for "big funnel" lol
subtle tundra
its not a new expansion
subtle tundra
and even back in s2, you didnt pick sub for "big funnel" lol
you literally did
ebon notch
and even back in s2, you didnt pick sub for "big funnel" lol
????
what did you pick sub for then
night delta
what did you pick sub for then
being a pain in world pvp ?
ebon notch
being a pain in world pvp ?
true
sinful cradle
bruh I loved trolling ppl in the maw early in s1
night delta
the good old days of SD > Ambush > Ambush > Ambsuh > Ambush ...
vast loom
I feel like any legacy rogue legit only plays rogue to ruin peoples day
balmy condor
that's kinda how pvp works
sinful cradle
Distracting ppl off the edge 
night delta
I feel like any legacy rogue legit only plays rogue to ruin peoples day
but
it was fun though
vestal wren
and wold pvp did mean he did go to leveling zones or pvp areas and gank up on low geared enemies
balmy condor
"fun"
vestal wren
what means he did spend up to 20h every week ganking lowies for kills with no competition
"fun"
royal lantern
the kind of player you dont want in your raid
balmy condor
that's called shadenfreude đ
bin deutsch, das wort kenn ich gut
but yeah idk
people are weird
pvp people are weirder
royal lantern
half of the CF/shadowblades are german
royal lantern
never forget that 
hollow river
and wold pvp did mean he did go to leveling zones or pvp areas and gank up on lo...
Is this not what rogues do?
violet jackal
I think it's funny when PVP die hards say PVE is boring, and I'm like you played a solved chess match over and over đ
vestal wren
Is this not what rogues do?
idk, i am not a real rogue if thats normal
hollow river
Yes
royal lantern
and 2nd: REAL rogues dont kill people
strange python
pvp is fun when its world pvp
hollow river
first: pvp is cringe, cringe is for dh players
I mean this is just an opinion
night delta
Is this not what rogues do?
being the same amount of dangerous to characters matching your level is much more fulfilling imo
hollow river
Itâs another part of the game, just like m+
hollow river
Yeah I was just kidding about ganking lowbies, that part is cringe
balmy condor
I think it's funny when PVP die hards say PVE is boring, and I'm like you played...
no actually it's very different every match because if you see a paladin, you bait the bubble, but if you see a hunter, you bait the turtle, and then if you see a mage, you bait the ice block, but when you play a different paladin, you bait the bubble
royal lantern
killing low level characters is not really an opinion, its legit just cringe and borderline griefing
violet jackal
no actually it's very different every match because if you see a paladin, you ba...
sound very solved to me đ€
hollow river
no actually it's very different every match because if you see a paladin, you ba...
But thereâs differing skill levels and different ways to react
ÂŻ_(ă)_/ÂŻ
night delta
killing low level characters is not really an opinion, its legit just cringe and...
though distracting them off the road into a gnoll camp once in a while is okay
hollow river
killing low level characters is not really an opinion, its legit just cringe and...
Ye I agree. Thought you meant pvp in general
royal lantern
oh well
pvp in general is also cringe
dont worry
just slightly less
play a real pvp game if you want pvp that isnt bad
balmy condor
the best part about pvp is that when people start to talk about it I can tell them to go to #pvp and I never have to interact with them again
subtle tundra
the best part about pvp is that when people start to talk about it I can tell th...
please take pvp related talk to #pvp ,thanks. GO AWAY.
balmy condor
please take pvp related talk to <#226359213427916800> ,thanks. GO AWAY.
please take m+ feelcraft related talk to #outlaw, thanks
hollow river
royal lantern
you are named after the best talent whispr
subtle tundra
you didnt tell me to "GO AWAY". now i wont
balmy condor
you didnt tell me to "GO AWAY". now i wont
that's by design bb <3
violet jackal
Do I marked for death right when the arena gates open so I can get slice N dice up?
gusty mirage
Do I marked for death right when the arena gates open so I can get slice N dice ...
No
balmy condor
you marked for death yourself irl 2 seconds before so you can avoid playing the match
ebon notch
@royal lantern why did you bring sub in keys sry i dont think you said
violet jackal
well the #1 reason is usually utility purposes
royal lantern
eh, not really that much
people REALLY overvalue "utility" in keys
you can have all the utility possible, if the dmg is not good, its still bad
+the constant change what utility is good or bad
remember BfA launch, where 1 of the most common things you saw in the outlaw channel was "assassination can SILENCE adds, how are we supposed to stand against that just with gouge????"
ebon notch
people REALLY overvalue "utility" in keys
utility is bis wdym
utility has infinite value
you have to do really low damage to make your utility worthless
gusty mirage
remember BfA launch, where 1 of the most common things you saw in the outlaw cha...
Well thatâs because theyâre apes in there
subtle tundra
the real rogue utility is having to do all stops so your team can focus on their gameplay
its not like you wont have enough stops with a normal comp
night delta
the real assassination utility is screaming for no chain pulls every pack
subtle tundra
unless you play like triple caster
gusty mirage
the real assassination utility is screaming for no chain pulls every pack
Chaining is good for assassination
royal lantern
chaining is good if they dont play like the ussual m+ pug tank, but pugs suck in general, so what do you expect
night delta
as good as empowerd-garrote'ing every pack ?
gusty mirage
Yes
royal lantern
if you allready have your stuff rolling, why not pull more?
gusty mirage
Chaining like a normal pug tank where they chain when the previous pull is at 4%
Not so much
night delta
Chaining like a normal pug tank where they chain when the previous pull is at 4%
yeah that's what i meant by chain pulling
royal lantern
but putting a pack at 50% and then pull another one in? thats good chainpulling for assa
night delta
the other i just call pulling multiple packs
restive falcon
with ilvl being increased tomorrow, i currently have my unity on helm and duskwalker on my ring, should i swap my duskwalker to chest and move unity to an off piece? or just keep my duskwalker on my ring?
subtle tundra
you dont want your leggos on high stat pieces
like chest
cause they will be 291
and you dont want on finger cause funky fingers from mechagon
restive falcon
well duskwalker leggo is only chest/ring
restive falcon
i am assuming u get mechagon rings and put it on chest
limber obsidian
Out of interest, if I specced nightstalker and opened with serrated bone spike is that bonespikr "empowered" for 50% till the mob dies?
violet jackal
the initial hit yes
limber obsidian
Only the hit not the dot?
velvet ridge
Haven't played in like a year, and good catch up mechanics to get ilvls tomorrow. Or am I gonna have to go through like every patch main quests
Man fuck ilvls and gearing, just give me moba champ select but M+ and raiding
copper hazel
i guess you just need to go play a moba for that
royal lantern
Man fuck ilvls and gearing, just give me moba champ select but M+ and raiding
thats 1 of the worst takes i saw today, congratz
subtle tundra
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
frank axle
on ST raid, do i save my shiv to have it in the vendetta/flag window (and cast one MfD+shiv between two vendattas) or do i use shiv on cd?
thorny pond
on ST raid, do i save my shiv to have it in the vendetta/flag window (and cast o...
Basically you shiv once between vendettas is how it lines up
frank axle
yeah thought that and doing it so far but on rereading faq i saw that
thorny pond
Yep. Shiv on CD is basically what I posted. It tends to line up well enough to go that route
Thereâs like a few fringe cases where boss uptime is eaten by mechanics or if youâre doing LoD and waiting for the vulnerability window type thing
frank axle
sry deleted attachemnt on previous post
thorny pond
Yep
frank axle
ok was confused if i doing it wrong. thanks
cause full on cd would alter the timing after some uses
thorny pond
All good. Plenty of time to just mess around. Donât be afraid to just follow the rotation as stated then adjust over time
subtle tundra
wait, there's 2 days left of the season
and im like 60 score away from being r1 assa
might actually... do that
thorny pond
That 21 gambit is really cranking
thorny pond
It was when destro was bigger
subtle tundra
these are my keys
subtle tundra
yea i didnt think about this at all
subtle tundra
can also do some 29s
maybe necro for dos/gambit/mists?
dont think it would be bad
and shades == infinite kevin(i love kevin)
spice spire
I like venthyr or NF for mists; since inga is usually the most time consuming bastards on tyran
Necro gambit and dos feel good
But it is a fortified week
So maybe 
subtle tundra
only problem with necro is that it sucks when i have cache going and have to sbs
đŹ
in aoe
strange python
only reason why i didnt play rogue this expansion is because i didn't like any of the covenant abilities
oh and removal of kingsbane
subtle tundra
kingsbane was removed in bfa mate
strange python
i didn't play it then either
i played warlock/deathknight in BFA
Honestly i liked BFA better than SHadowlands
which is a shock to me
the ending of BFA was really fun, and the whole azshara raid and the outdoor zone was cool af
timid cloud
Rogue was still slamminâ in BFA.
Like hard slammin when people were running 3 Rogues.
timid cloud
Thatâs why they put the rules in the MDI to not class stack anymore so there was variety.
Mâuh class representation!
grim tangle
I did it
lucid birch
@balmy condor why this name
grizzled jay
Whispyr loves playing exsang
balmy condor
yes, it's a terribly designed ability with janky interactions that is almost never good unless propped up by insanely overtuned borrowed power
strange python
yea that
balmy condor
I lost a bet
strange python
how much money you lose?