assassination

[balmy condor]

they won't

the wording already implies a whitelist of effects

[vast loom]

true but what about them being buffed by lethal dose

[balmy condor]

what

[vast loom]

they use the wording twice

[balmy condor]

yes

[vast loom]

which is weird

imo

[balmy condor]

do you know what a whitelist is

[viscid spear]

Remember when non-Rogue things were affected by Master Assassin?

[chilly marsh]

guldan trinket? yes

kidney gundan trinket vanish

:p

[viscid spear]

I meant the beginning of the expac when Kyrian Sub Rogues were destroying players with the bat trinket

[vast loom]

yeah i do, but on the 1st line of the wording it specifiies abilities and the 2nd line doesnt. which could just be bad tooltips like usual

[viscid spear]

Wasn't that a thing?

[slow marsh]

yes

[balmy condor]

they've always taken hard stances against external effects interacting with spec mechanics

[viscid spear]

My dumb ass was NF for so long

[slow marsh]

If only they implemented fixes faster for them tho

[chilly marsh]

Draught of Souls as fun xD

[viscid spear]

Is it harder for them to make non-class abilities not benefit from class effects compared to just letting them?

Like the Shadow damage conduit for Sub

[balmy condor]

what

reading that question is not clicking in my head sorry

[dawn merlin]

guess it depends on how the code is structured

[viscid spear]

I'm trying to convey, sorry

[vast loom]

its almost always easier to whitelist, but when its somehting like improves shadow dmg

[viscid spear]

Is it harder for them to make non-Rogue abilities that do Shadow damage not be affecting by Deeper Daggers?

[grizzled jay]

It is eaiser to code "only works for these things" than to code "doesn't work for these things"

[vast loom]

that is very easy to just say if shadow dmg do more dmg

then add a black list after

because you forgot

that trinkets exist

[viscid spear]

Yeah, that's what I was looking for

[vast loom]

cuz you are just a de lol

[hollow river]

@balmy condor have you logged into the alpha yet

[grizzled jay]

Whitelisting means you don't need to emergency hotfix. Whereas blacklist if something unintentionally works could break the game until hotfix.

Turning all off by default is safer.

[balmy condor]

No

[hollow river]

ah

[strange python]

will zandalari troll racial apply to lethal dose?

[viscid spear]

I gotta mentally prepare myself to spam dungeons next resetv

[balmy condor]

No

[viscid spear]

How about that DF spoiler? ||Lor'themar & Thalyssra got hitched ||

[oak sky]

no idea what that means

[vast loom]

Lore

[ebon notch]

pixels got married

[viscid spear]

I like the lore, maybe more than anyone else here

[gusty mirage]

been a rough expac for you eh?

[coarse schooner]

No Buff for S4 M+...

[balmy condor]

s4 is meme season

just have fun with it

[viscid spear]

I'ma just pretend SL never happened, no one can convince me otherwise

Lorewise ofc, because nothing that happened in this expac can't be handwaved for DF, prove me wrong

[coarse schooner]

If i want to test Assa M+ next season, should i go for Zoldyck or Dustwalker?

[viscid spear]

Wdym "test"?

And Dusk would be our best leggo for sure, Zoldyck has its use on specific encounter tho

Oh wait, just M+? Then Dusk all day

[coarse schooner]

My heart belongs to Assa, but i didnt played it so far in SL. Currently Outlaw

Thats why i asked for Legy

[brazen zodiac]

lol

[viscid spear]

Then yeah, M+ Sin would be Dusk

[coarse schooner]

On Chest because of the mechagon rings right?

[viscid spear]

If you're planning on staying Sin for M+ into 9.2.7, yes

Logic Loop of Division & Overclocking Bit Band would be the best choice

[oak sky]

dude its gonna be so ass having a 291 chest

[viscid spear]

Bro I made it today

[oak sky]

yeah but

its a

big stat stick

and we have to use it at 291

[viscid spear]

I want DF now

[coarse schooner]

Maybe it Sims better than mechagon rings

[fathom flax]

Any sims yet of the 3 rogue specs relative to each other

For s4

[cursive orchid]

20 ilvl dif iirc

[cursive orchid]

yeah duskwalker and embrace the prio

[drifting cloud]

prio

[cursive orchid]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

[viscid spear]

Or just take a break until DF

[balmy condor]

sin behind the other two

[bleak sky]

even in patchwerk?

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[bleak sky]

holy

311 eon too powerful for kyrian

[balmy condor]

wow amazing imagine

sylv dagger bad for sin

they come back

they're still bad

CRAZY

[cerulean junco]

😦

[balmy condor]

but the deeper daggers fix knocks sub down a peg

like 600 dps

[viscid spear]

[balmy condor]

so it's looking like outlaw > sub > sin

[cerulean junco]

Next week I think rogue getting implemented into alpha so that will be fun

[burnt latch]

what a weird timeline last 6 months of rogue balance

[balmy condor]

me go sleep

[cerulean junco]

Gn

[balmy condor]

2am just writing wowhead stuff

[vast loom]

i remember watching RWF and everyone was pogging about sub 4p on anduin

[burnt latch]

as long as I dont have to pay BS + DS assa rogue ever again im chillin

[balmy condor]

10.0

[burnt latch]

no

please no

[balmy condor]

dance ambush sin

back on the menu

esketit

[burnt latch]

[balmy condor]

@wild lantern @gusty mirage yoinksies

ty

okay me go sleep

for real this time

[burnt latch]

gn king

[gusty mirage]

done

gn

[wild lantern]

oxi got it first, confirmed oxi better mod

[burnt latch]

oxi is the king of kings

[drifting cosmos]

🤨 10.0 sin gonna have a lot more buttons to press

[vast loom]

i think every class will have more buttons

[drifting cosmos]

me too dumb to play anything more than 4 buttons

[oak sky]

"more buttons to press" bro thats like every 1 minute for the huge majority of the time your gameplay is the same

[drifting cosmos]

was looking at talents, seems everyone all have so many mini cds/ 45 sec 1min etc

[toxic locust]

potential new buttons are kingsbane/carnage, cold blood, MFD, dance/tea/ER
and a keybind for ambush if you play a blindside build i suppose

[oak sky]

mfd isnt new

blindside probably isnt either

[toxic locust]

yea there's just a chance you don't have those keybound right now

you can probably macro cold blood to something if you're really thirsting for open keybinds

but it's not really that many new buttons

[oak sky]

ye

[vast loom]

yeah cold blood on KB is very likely

i wouldnt macro it maybe

[limber lion]

We get 2 new buttons with the covenant ability/wignature ability

[vast loom]

we dont take it but we could have SBS + kyrian

which is annoying but whatever

my mind has all cov abilities on 1 button

[grizzled jay]

current ST build i am looking at has MfD, CB, KB, SBS, Dance

[vast loom]

yeah seems about right

[grizzled jay]

at least i can keep Covenant on same keybind. And MfD. Gonna need new keybinds for CB, KB, and Dance though.

i guess I can use CT and KB on same bind, since doubt you'd ever have both in same build. unless we get memed by a tier set and it makes CT good in ST again kekw

[flint pond]

dumb question, when you snapshot at the end of vendetta do you let the bleed fall off then reapply or just reapply during pandemic as normal?

[vast loom]

i refresh around 1 sec

[gusty mirage]

let it fall off

then reapply

[flint pond]

ty

[grizzled jay]

let it fully fall off. unless there's some kind of situation where the mob is gonna teleport or otherwise get away from you then yeah refresh.

[strange python]

had an idea for an assassination talent. probably not a good one but ah well

"each combo point spent on an offensive finisher increases the duration of bleeds on your target by 0.5 seconds"

[kindred rapids]

That just deletes half your rotation

[brazen zodiac]

epic

[strange python]

they can't give us fun things to do besides reapply bleeds?

at least cold blood looks neat

[bleak sky]

That's the spec

Bleed maintenance spec

[vast loom]

Yeah thats what happened to feral

Now they are a bite spec

[strange python]

Oof

[lethal mortar]

what do you guys sim for st?

just curious

[brazen zodiac]

16.2k

[velvet ridge]

i love bleeds, bleed maintence is fun to me

[sharp falcon]

can't maintain bleeds if they run out of blood

new game mechanic

[velvet ridge]

Bleeds no longer work against Mechanical, Abberations, and Elementals

[storm onyx]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[strange python]

Bleeds are cool cause venomous wounds

[fossil eagle]

i love sin and i will play it forever

[night delta]

that's just reaching 0 hp though

[toxic locust]

assassination rogue using tiny daggers to make things like robots and rock elementals bleed will never not be immersion breaking to me

anti fantasy spec

at least sub has the shadow magic excuse

[oak sky]

we should use a wire

[toxic locust]

true

[balmy condor]

okay so like

100% envenom uptime

is not an issue

alpha gives you 180 greens and you just take twist the knife and you actually cannot avoid overwriting envenom lmao

[brave gyro]

just imagine that the poison is clogging their oil piping and corroding their metal

[copper hazel]

if jet fuel can melt steel beams, then rogue poison can too

[spice spire]

[vernal adder]

plane poison, new build in df

[velvet ridge]

you know, we dont have anything named acid do we

i guess thats not really a poison though

[copper hazel]

poison bomb is like an acid pool

at least in thematic look and feel

[sterile chasm]

What about feral? They bite rock xd

[royal lantern]

you play a normal sized dude in this game that can block attacks from a 50meter big robot with a shield

or parry it with a sword

logic and fantasy games doesnt go togheter man

[icy agate]

you can bleed a radiator, why cant you bleed a robot

[shell ivy]

So I just went trying how assa feel this patch

Jesus we don’t envenom as much anymore

Maybe my stats are too bad (from outlaw gear) but I barely can fit any if I wanna keep up all 3 dots

[viscid spear]

Flame Leviathan

[shell ivy]

Do we still shiv on cd?

[pure moth]

yes

[shell ivy]

Also do u need to refresh everything first before shiving?

I’m pretty sure if throwing shiv on cd, means having to refresh in shiv

[pure moth]

if you have vendetta/flag coming up in 10 seconds, you can hold shiv for the combo. but thats the only exception

[shell ivy]

Feels so bad man

I guess bleeds are bleeds

[pure moth]

the spec is all about bleeds and maintaining them

[shell ivy]

Ye I just came back from sanctum patch

It was much more envenom heavy

This tier set just makes it back to full bleed spec

[pure moth]

envenom is just to refresh slice and dice really atm, used if poisons/bleeds are all up and rolling

[shell ivy]

Ye, so do I really not need to care too much if I gotta refresh in shiv?

Also not as many env in shiv windows ig

[balmy condor]

yep

just like last patch

just send it and forget it

[viscid spear]

[shell ivy]

[viscid spear]

Your bleeds do more damage after you Shiv, so in addition to using it right after Vendetta you're then maintaining those super bleeds as much as possible. So refreshing in Shiv isn't bad, it's expected during the Vendetta window

[night delta]

what's the envenom uptime like without twist the knife ?

[viscid spear]

Don't fret about the Envenom debuff on the target

Oh, you mean in DF?

[night delta]

I think it's important to know if twist the knife actually impacts envenom uptime that much

yeah

[balmy condor]

probably like 60%

[viscid spear]

I wish I was in Alpha

[balmy condor]

oh half the shit doesn't work still

you're not missing out

[viscid spear]

But the experience!

[shell ivy]

ok understood

[night delta]

alpha really isn't about the exprience though

half of it is NYI

[viscid spear]

I'm just bored af rn in-game, I don't have motivation

[night delta]

although dragon riding probably is fun

[balmy condor]

kingsbanes tick damage isn't increasing and does less than an off-hand auto attack

[night delta]

Kingstickle

[balmy condor]

improved garrote doesn't actually have the cooldown part

[hollow river]

[viscid spear]

Sounds like current Glacial Spike on Frost Mage, where not taking a talent in that row is a dps increase over GS

[night delta]

it's that badly tuned huh ?

[zinc turtle]

What will be the go to trinkets for S4 anyone?

[night delta]

!fuu

[prisma monolith]

Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz

[night delta]

check out the "WIP Assassination" page

[violet jackal]

Some combination of First Sigil, Guardan of the first ones, something passive from a dungeon

[night delta]

Eye of command from Kara part 2 is a good contender

[zinc turtle]

Thanks all, I had forgotten about Fuus Spreadsheet, its very helpful thanks 🙂 Happy Stabbing!

[vestal wren]

the trinket choice will probably change a bit with the buffs

[spice spire]

First sigil stocks DOWN

[viscid spear]

[vestal wren]

sigil still 📈 for night fae

[strange python]

What % of st damage is poison bomb on alpha with and without stratagem? Anyone tested it yet?

[balmy condor]

like 3%

it's trash

but also it's alpha with 0 tuning

so makes sense

kingsbane doing less than auto attacks

[strange python]

Considering it's a two pointer, gonna have to be tuned really high

[balmy condor]

you also can't take dragon tempered on alpha

not because it's not implemented

but because you don't have the talent points

all testing atm is level 60

not 70

[storm onyx]

Will it be good for a scenario where we have prio dmg focus with adds inc within intervals. Even certain m+ environments like ToP was?

Least the aim is that if I remember right, not directly ST

[balmy condor]

I mean right now it's just strictly not good

but when it gets tuned

yeah sure

[icy agate]

just level up 8-)

[jade abyss]

So kb will be trash q.q?

[storm onyx]

They have focused on interactions for test launch; tunings will come as data accumulates

[balmy condor]

only way to level is dungeons, and you're capped at 62

but yeah

tuning

need to wait

[icy agate]

61 is enough for dragon tempered

but ye i hope the 70 profiles and NYI spells get implemented relatively soon so people can give feedback on how they feel

[balmy condor]

I will say my biggest complaint atm

is that carnage is terrible at 10 yards

it hits literally nothing

[candid token]

I appreciate all your hard work Whispyr 😮

[strange python]

carnage is only 10 yards?

thats awful lmao

[balmy condor]

[violet jackal]

is that the same range as empowered fan of knives / crimson tempest?

[spice spire]

Shorter

[jade abyss]

When i notice it correctly we play a poison build in st and bleeds in aoe?

[balmy condor]

pretty much yeah

[balmy condor]

fok is 15, outlaw with acro is 8

CT is 10 I think

but it's 10 from YOU

which is a big difference

[violet jackal]

ah yes I see

Lets make it 15

[jade abyss]

😍

[balmy condor]

like you have this setup with red mobs, you're on green, CT hits them all, no problems

[marble hemlock]

Also for some reason you add like 1y to that aoe if you cast fok/CT at the apex of a jump.

[balmy condor]

but carnage is on the target

so this for example

would be fucked

[marble hemlock]

Don't ask me why

[balmy condor]

it means if you carnage something, it has to be in the middle

[marble hemlock]

Maybe someone smarter than me can explain why

[balmy condor]

but yeh

I ran like 6 dungeons today

and carnage range was honestly a MASSIVE issue

like boss with adds spawning, you carnage->deathmark->bleeds on the boss

and it just whiffs all the adds

[thorny pond]

2D Vectors are weird man

[marble hemlock]

Probably something to do with hit boxes being spherical and suspended in the air, so since most enemies are taller than the player, jumping adds AOE

[jade abyss]

We play with the energy tea then?

[balmy condor]

no fuck thistle

[errant elbow]

Most of the NYI abilities for rogue are fixed in next weeks build.

[balmy condor]

yes

that's what realz said

[marble hemlock]

basically this

and yes, my paint skills are glorious

[thorny pond]

Did you draw that? Beautiful

[marble hemlock]

but yeah its pretty noticeable at times

being able to hit more enemies when jumping

is a pretty neat trick sometimes

[thorny pond]

My guild is recruiting a graphics designer for things like this. Your spot if you want it.

Yea it can be

good tanks = less space bar. Bad tanks (not DKs), = spacebar broken

[marble hemlock]

Thats how the issue of the stars on anduin worldfirst happened too. They reduced the range of the stars a bit, but because their hitbox was so far up in the air, it just passed right over the player, so the only way to get hit by them was to jump while they travelled over you.

[bleak sky]

move carnage to self and fixed yes?

[balmy condor]

I mean

no

[thorny pond]

How would that work tho

you don't bleed yourself

[balmy condor]

because you're still casting garrote/rupture

so you still have to move

just make it 15/20 yards

[marble hemlock]

Cant wait to hit enemies that im not even in combat with with acrobatic strikes+flying daggers

[violet jackal]

don't forget the enemies that are on the other side of a wall

[thorny pond]

tol dagor can't hurt you anymore

[marble hemlock]

cant hit shit through a wall with fok

that sorta stuff typically only happens with ground-targeted AoEs

[outer cairn]

@balmy condor saw your pin. So for Sin we going after double EoN?

[balmy condor]

yes

[outer cairn]

I figured as much.

[balmy condor]

it's the highest ilvl dagger and has an effect

[outer cairn]

awesome. kinda looking forward to raiding as sin again

[fleet whale]

You guys are amazing artists

so much detail

[gusty mirage]

has to be something with the netcode

because moving + using Fok/CT also add that extra distance

[marble hemlock]

[outer cairn]

Just took a look at the FAQ. I thought the go to was Theo? Or did it change back to Nadja recently?

[spice spire]

Nadjia is more friendly for fights that move a ton (which sofo has a ton of) and you lose a ton of umbrella uptime.

Theo assumes theo uptime is 100 (meaning you’re in the umbrella 100% of the time you’re up) losing uptime on that = loss on dps

[outer cairn]

That makes sense. I'll have to go take a look when I get home, but I thought we couldn't get 3 potency on Nadja if we wanted to go duelist with her? Could be wrong. I also thought Theo for the tea primarily, not so much the umbrella

Either way, lets me swtich between Sin and Outlaw and each have a set up instead of worrying about switching soulbinds and stuff

[balmy condor]

potency is stronger than duelist

[subtle tundra]

[outer cairn]

Check rog

[subtle tundra]

Is it

[balmy condor]

in 90% of situations, yes

[subtle tundra]

Ok baka

You bad

[balmy condor]

and in the 10% where you actually only ever hit 1 target ever, it's a massive 25 dps

an unclimbable mountain of gains

[meager granite]

Lets hope Realz doesnt see this message his wrath would be gigantic !
You Will play thistle Tea and you Will like it !

[subtle tundra]

Cry cry cry cry

I will do top boss dmg

🤬

[balmy condor]

varas are you just an asshole for fun or does someone pay you to be annoying

[subtle tundra]

[outer cairn]

Right on. Don't you have the open for when we take Subterfuge in the pins? Cuz I know its something like, garrote, garrote, mut/snd

[thorny pond]

🧂

[balmy condor]

wdym "have the open for when we take subt"

like how to open on a boss in m+?

[outer cairn]

no in raid. if we weren't switching covenants

not on a hardcore team where i'd go swap between venth and necro

[balmy condor]

on necro would be gar sbs snd

gar snd sbs probably fine too if you can get an env off without it dropping

but it's been sketch for me in the past

[vast loom]

i feel like in ST with necro you just shouldnt take subt right?

[outer cairn]

right. say lords fight though if we venth. would we take subt or just stay same talents?

[marble hemlock]

sbs snd gar

[vast loom]

oh a 2 target opener is difernt for sure

[gusty mirage]

either way its a 1cp snd

[marble hemlock]

sbs can be up to 3

wdym

[gusty mirage]

yeah for the one in 100 times it actually calculates the CPs properly

[marble hemlock]

i mean its a 50:50

[gusty mirage]

60 pulls on lords

[balmy condor]

sure I guess

[marble hemlock]

on the extra CP

[gusty mirage]

I had more than 1 cp exactly once

[marble hemlock]

and then critrate for the 3rd one

well yeah obviously

its about 1 in 4 that you only get 1cp

from sbs

[gusty mirage]

yeah that's horseshit

[marble hemlock]

with current crit

[outer cairn]

But on 2 target fight as venth, would we even take subt and open with garrotes or just stay same

[gusty mirage]

I want my first spike to give me my 2cp like it says

[marble hemlock]

yeah it is. its why i dont do single cp snd anymore

[gusty mirage]

no always MA as venthyr

[marble hemlock]

psure i did most of jailer prog with DS with gar sbs mut snd

to get 4-6cp snd

cause anything below that sucked ass

[gusty mirage]

the CP generation is vital for reducing flag CD

[violet jackal]

i open with a 1 CP slice n dice and it works out fine

[vast loom]

opening on lords tho is just setting up dots right cuz we save everything for swarm

[balmy condor]

opener just isn't that important

[outer cairn]

ok thanks. Was thinking probably lose value and I guess throw extra bleeds up when you can outside of vendetta

[balmy condor]

[marble hemlock]

having to cast envenom during vendetta aint fine

[balmy condor]

get snd up before dots, get dots up, press cooldowns

perfectly fine

[gusty mirage]

yoink

[outer cairn]

I just think that Kingsbane coming back and deathmark and double lethal poisons gonna make sin slap

[vast loom]

sin tree does look cool just gotta wait tho its still hella early

[outer cairn]

I'm sure the masterminds will figure it all out

[marble hemlock]

you wont be able to run kingsbane and double poisons though

[vast loom]

shit will be figured out theres just not a whole lot to figure out other than does shit work lol

[outer cairn]

disappointing

[royal lantern]

i would love to do it man

[vast loom]

atleast as of right now

[marble hemlock]

its intentional

[royal lantern]

but cant have everything

ik man

[vast loom]

who knows what happens in next version

of tree

[outer cairn]

Does deathmark also copy Kingsbane?

[vast loom]

dunno

[royal lantern]

it would be somewhat stupid cus you would need to balance kingsbane around people taking double poisons

wich means it would be unusable without it

[vast loom]

also

double poison would just always be taken

then you reall only "choose" between KB or Carnage

[outer cairn]

for the dmg enhance and the dmg reduction poisons right?

[vast loom]

which is fairly obvious on the content

[limber lion]

You might wanna use Shiv very early as well and then on cooldown. I'm talking gar gar sbs snd shiv angle, or something similar. Or else you miss a cast because you have to hold it

[outer cairn]

KB for ST and Carnage for Cleave/AoE?

[limber lion]

Or well actually, probably doesn't matter with Zoldyck

[vast loom]

yup

[limber lion]

Not necessarily because if you take DTB, you can't get to Kingsbane

[outer cairn]

Did we even really use Zoldyck in CN? Maybe for Huntsman and SLG?

[limber lion]

Just down to tuning at this point

[gusty mirage]

sire I think

[violet jackal]

doomblade

[vast loom]

we were talking if you could take KB and DTB

[vast loom]

DTB would never be a "choice"

[limber lion]

Ok maybe I missed something

But why not?

[limber lion]

Sire prog if you were a gigachad prog gamer.

Doomblade everywhere else

[balmy condor]

double the poison

means double the gains on kingsbane

[limber lion]

Oh yeh my language barrier coming through

Didn't connect those 2 sentences

Yeh if you could use em both, it would be super op fo sho

[ebon notch]

i brought it up to realz and he said "oh no, show me your tree"

cause i hadnt tried it yet

cause i hadnt tried it yet

[balmy condor]

daps and inting publicly to the dev

[vast loom]

Yeah right now sin tree feels very differnt than most other specs cuz we basically choose 1 cap stone then we need to fill in all the other points

[ebon notch]

im an exhibitionist

[vast loom]

Unless maybe a KB and Carnage build is a thing in m+ but I big doubt

But who knows maybe kb pump for boss/prio and carnage for aoe

[limber lion]

The Zoldyck placement is a bit feelsbad for sure, wouldn't necessarily want to take all mutilate talents and TTB just to get to it

[royal lantern]

not even a weird kink, dont worry

[jade abyss]

Kb with double poison will be so op that blizzard nerf it to the ground x)

[royal lantern]

kb with double poison will never be a thing simply because: you would need to balance it around double poisons

aka it does the "intended" dmg when people take double

but if they dont, its ussules

so its not even an option anymore

[jade abyss]

I happy that kb comes back but i dont understand zoldyk in that row when i remember right

[limber lion]

it won't be a thing because it's literally impossible to take it currently

very very highly doubt they would change that.

[outer cairn]

k stupid question time cause I beleive I've asked this, but don't remember. When Flag and Vendetta are up, but say we've got like 10-12 secs on rupture, do we flag and overwrite the current rupture or use the points on a different finisher

[violet jackal]

Probably rupture since that rupture will be in pandemic once you press vendetta

[balmy condor]

Huh?

Just use a different finisher

If it’s not in pandemic don’t overwrite

You only overwrite for the overhang

[outer cairn]

ok. wasn't sure if there was something about getting like max time at the full tick rate or anything

[violet jackal]

Once he presses vendetta won’t the current rupture go to 5 sec

[outer cairn]

overhang. Talking about like the last 3-5 secs of vendetta right

[outer cairn]

yeah but energy coming in so fast that i'd be able to then mut mut reapply

[balmy condor]

Yeah but he wants to flag->overwrite the rupture->THEN vend

[outer cairn]

but don't do that unless its already in pandemic

[balmy condor]

Correct

[outer cairn]

ok. big thing for me is getting the timings down and not hitting rupture or garrote to soon during vendetta. gotta remember the windows are halved.

[vast loom]

look up Cev bleed WA's on WAGO

they will change the pandemic glow during vend

[outer cairn]

oh sweet. would it work with the current wa i'm using?

[vast loom]

dont know, what you mean by work but you could just modify them to match what yours look like

[outer cairn]

k i'll go take a look

hmm. found his plater profile

but no wa

[vast loom]

https://wago.io/rk2kEs76d

[outer cairn]

sweet thanks

[peak bobcat]

Is sin doomered in s4?

[violet jackal]

?

[gusty mirage]

idk is sub doomered in s4?

if this ends up applying to pve too (which it likely will)

gonna be a yikers

[peak bobcat]

Outlaw supremacy?

🤮

[gusty mirage]

for m+? yeah

for raid it'll still be close enough to play whatever you want

[spice spire]

Deeper dagger massive nerf

Missed that one

Holy

[gusty mirage]

it was tucked under pvp

[spice spire]

This is a sub doomer chat ig

[gusty mirage]

rogue doomer chat*

[peak bobcat]

always a rogue doomer chat

[spice spire]

Amen

[gusty mirage]

everyone started assuming edge of night would be nerfed when they mentioned they're tweaking items going into s4

3 regulars were instantly EoN NERF

[peak bobcat]

They just nerfed sub instead

kekw

[spice spire]

Bless up

[peak bobcat]

Sin buffs when though

[gusty mirage]

sin doesn't need buffs

its fine

[royal lantern]

the golden rule is: if you need to ask, it doesnt matter for you(dont mean that as an insult btw)

[spice spire]

It needs key help but also is good enough that it probably shouldn’t get any

[peak bobcat]

I just got back from bootcamp someone help me man

[bleak sky]

I mean it as an insult

[gusty mirage]

no we need to not have exsang a part of our rotation

[peak bobcat]

3 months away and im washed

[spice spire]

Buffing Literally almost anything buffs our ST, so it’s kind of

[bleak sky]

you're not washed

[gusty mirage]

a dif 4pc bonus and it'd be perfectly fine in m+

[bleak sky]

you're fine tyler

go shit on your raid ez clap

[ebon notch]

deeper not affecting EON is huge no?

[peak bobcat]

ye

[spice spire]

Yes

[ebon notch]

will make sub worse than outlaw

[spice spire]

If it’s also PvE

[gusty mirage]

well if it does end up doing that across the board

[ebon notch]

maybe you run veinripper offhand

[gusty mirage]

sub's already worse than outlaw

[ebon notch]

[ebon notch]

i heard sub was better?

[gusty mirage]

yeah if you rng proc your ass off

sub has more variance than outlaw

unlucky

[royal lantern]

i mean, im not saying "omg you are bad, it doesnt matter for you!" its more of an"eh, if you ask it straight like that, chances are high that you play on a level where you can just pick whatever you want and be fine"

[ebon notch]

fair

[spice spire]

Insert guy moment of “show me one sim”

[royal lantern]

you baboon

[ebon notch]

i said that last night and he asked why i was baiting

and i apologised

[gusty mirage]

yeah he missed the most important part of that quote

what an IDIOT

[royal lantern]

[spice spire]

Bro just don’t bait

[ebon notch]

yessir

[gusty mirage]

just take the oxi approach

[spice spire]

I’m also an undercover foreverguy fanboy

[gusty mirage]

engage him in bi-annual increments

[royal lantern]

we all are

[gusty mirage]

once every 6 months is plenty for me

[royal lantern]

fanboi for guy and simp for whispr is the normal RH user

[spice spire]

Mental fort of the man is unmatched

[gusty mirage]

cool dude, but too zoomer for me

[spice spire]

A lesser man would have been broken by now

[royal lantern]

+he could do ASMR with his voice

[spice spire]

Voices don’t do it for me

@ebon notch is a voice man tho

[gusty mirage]

yeah quake's more of a feet guy

[spice spire]

No man

[gusty mirage]

[peak bobcat]

[ebon notch]

just your voice

[gusty mirage]

wow

okay

[spice spire]

You lack the Texan accent, oxi. Sorry king

[bleak sky]

howdy

ope

[peak bobcat]

cring

[spice spire]

HOWDY

(I’m not Texan)

[bleak sky]

texans are people tyler

(I'm guessing)

[royal lantern]

https://tenor.com/view/side-eye-dog-suspicious-look-suspicious-doubt-dog-doubt-gif-23680990

[peak bobcat]

[upbeat mirage]

Listen, y'all. Tyler is a city. In Texas.

[gusty mirage]

why are you saying ope?

that's a midwestern thing you baboon

[bleak sky]

is it not all the same thing

[gusty mirage]

do NOT compare me with the south

[winter hill]

It is the same thing. usa only has 3 states after all. texas california and florida

[gusty mirage]

weird that we leave new york off that list

but okay

[gusty mirage]

you're trying really really hard to get me to mute you

and it's not going to work

you're stuck here buddy

[bleak sky]

[spice spire]

You’re right. Somehow the south is less racist than Michigan

[winter hill]

new york is just a city

[gusty mirage]

that's almost as bold of a claim as you insisting necro sin wasn't inting

[spice spire]

(I was inting)

[gusty mirage]

you finish sepulcher in the bos yet?

HMMM?

[spice spire]

Yeah? No submissions I gotta log search

[gusty mirage]

do your job

[spice spire]

You finish TAZ?!

[gusty mirage]

yes

actually

[spice spire]

FUCK

[gusty mirage]

I just have to input it on the spreadsheet

[spice spire]

My bargaining chip is gone

[fallen ginkgo]

hey fellow asses, the gods have shun on me and promised me a PI on the last mythic reclear. Since we wanna snapshot bleeds with Flaggelation i assume we wanna align PI with Flag and not vendetta?

[gusty mirage]

line it up with vendetta

[slow marsh]

I'll submit you

[spice spire]

Bro?

[slow marsh]

to the book of shadows

!bos

[prisma monolith]

Please Contribute by filling out the form on the title card with any info you have tested
This sheet is community-driven and may have some inaccuracies or be slightly out of date. You can help fix this by contributing!
Rogue Defensives usability: http://tiny.cc/q602uz

[spice spire]

@slow marsh hate u

[slow marsh]

What happen

[marble hemlock]

what if i mute him for you?

[gusty mirage]

no he doesn't deserve to be rewarded

let him suffer

[marble hemlock]

the rewards is talking to you

[devout shadow]

we still going duskwalker ring//unity bracers for S4?

[gusty mirage]

yuppers

until you get rings that sim higher than dusk in ring

like the mechagon rings or the court of stars ring + something else

then you'd slap dusk on chest

[devout shadow]

noice

tyty

[gusty mirage]

[devout shadow]

how much worse is assa in m+ btw? and what is the general playstyle like? i havent played assa since 8.3

[gusty mirage]

it's more or less the same as 8.3, you spread your bleeds for energy + damage, except now you envenom to keep up slice and dice + vendetta makes managing bleeds a headache with the tier set

you'd still play subterfuge and open up with 3x garrotes into a finisher

the core gameplay stays the same, just an additional plate to spin w/ slice and dice and giga prio damage tied to vendetta's exsanguinate effect

[devout shadow]

nice, thanks again 😛

[gusty mirage]

[sly edge]

@balmy condor such a fire tree edit

[balmy condor]

What I do

[nova wolf]

Thanks

[balmy condor]

You’re welcome

I think

[oak sky]

[gusty mirage]

you have nitro finally?

[oak sky]

:aggy:

Whispyr made it my new name

[gusty mirage]

yikes

[bleak sky]

[gusty mirage]

this is awkward

[bleak sky]

this is a server emote

why did you fail it

[oak sky]

Because I don't have nitro

[nova wolf]

[violet jackal]

:Aggy:

[verbal mantle]

Thanks

[viscid spear]

[slow marsh]

:Aggy:

[viscid spear]

Not part of the club

[novel arrow]

Guys what used to be by Kingbane?

[limber lion]

By Kingsbane?

Do you mean in the slot that Kinsbane is currently on?

It was Tiny Toxic Blade, which was nerfed and moved up a slot.

[novel arrow]

Ohh!

[cerulean junco]

Hopefully next week is implementations so we can test interactions

[viscid spear]

Hey I was just warning him.
But I'm also trying to recall how to play Sin in Castle Nathria

[strange python]

We outlaw gamers sadly

[viscid spear]

Hmm, my Outlaw weapons are pog...

[gusty mirage]

wdym

its the same

[sharp falcon]

Hi, thanks for being chill (yes, you)

that is all

[viscid spear]

Buddy I was NF in CN, I gotta mentally erase that before next week

[gusty mirage]

like in 9.0.5?

[viscid spear]

[dire spoke]

rogue was so great in CN that I forced myself on DK for progress

and never played unholy before

[viscid spear]

I might even just play FroMage until DF

[dire spoke]

@civic palm have you heard about the video board falling on a group member

or 2 even

[kindred rapids]

It's okay that sin will be bad, s4 is just a meme season

just gotta hold out for df

[bleak sky]

why is sin bad in s4 again?

[kindred rapids]

Not enough value from EoN

[oak sky]

No op weapons

[dire spoke]

sorry I thought I was in OT

[oak sky]

Its ok zempai

❤

[kindred rapids]

in S2 we had frost shards which helped make up for that

[dire spoke]

[bleak sky]

ok but how does it make sin bad

[oak sky]

Worse than everything else

Everybody gets something op we get something slightly better than just max ilvl

[bleak sky]

right

I get that

but >bad< ?

[oak sky]

Nah just mid

Worse than sub and outlaw

And a lot of other melee

[kindred rapids]

could be fun playing other specs more at least

[cerulean nest]

is anyone actually playing s4?

figured most were just gonna meme around

[ebon notch]

everyone quit

[cerulean nest]

cant imagine why you wouldnt

except to try out the dungeons for a sec or something

[jaunty crystal]

s4 going to be fun

[royal lantern]

s4 is going to be my big "Lets find a wr600something guild for DF" adventure

[leaden bloom]

I'm kinda bummed that the FoK talents in Dragonflight are so boring. Poisoned Katar and Flying Daggers seem very similar.

They should have put in Echoing Blades instead of one of those.

[royal lantern]

dont say echoing blades

or you summon him to tell you that its bad

[leaden bloom]

sigh

at least its not +range or +crit or +dmg ...

[royal lantern]

i mean

it was just +dmg lol

[night delta]

With awesome visual and audio feedback

[royal lantern]

it was litearlly just FoK lmao

[leaden bloom]

agree better than just a aura buff

[balmy condor]

fok cranks hard right now in alpha at least

[leaden bloom]

is that just base or with the talents?

[balmy condor]

with talents

[night delta]

More numbers > Bigger numbers

[subtle tundra]

I think assa will pog next expac

[balmy condor]

yeh sin looking really good

just need range increase on carnage

[cerulean nest]

is there an easy way to look at logs from alpha or is it not a public thing?

[balmy condor]

cause good fucking god

[balmy condor]

not public

would need someone with alpha to link

[cerulean nest]

for sure

[balmy condor]

not that there's much value in them atm

[cerulean nest]

nah just something to peruse

[royal lantern]

the problem with Echoing blades is

if its good, it turns all other aoe options down instantly

cus you just wanna spam FoK

[leaden bloom]

fair

[royal lantern]

no more multi dotting etc..... just FoK

wich in turn is a bit...weird

[balmy condor]

it felt like I was getting there earlier today

was a bit monka

[night delta]

I could see echoing blades merged with hidden daggers in some kind of way

Like each second you store a echoing blades proc, up to 5

Or somehing like that

To make it more interesting to play than just spam FoK

[bronze echo]

How big is the upcomming sepsis conduit nerf in pvp?

[night delta]

50% I think ?

[bronze echo]

Will it be noticable on the dmg?

[night delta]

If they took the effort to nerf it that much, probably yeah

NF sin burst in pvp was nasty

[leaden bloom]

I enjoy when FoK becomes a builder over mut. Full spam is bad but I like the change over.

The current alpha sin talents is just pulling me hard to the right side. I want some pull back to the left.

[balmy condor]

#pvp would probably know better

[balmy condor]

Kingsbane when it gets tuned to be stronger than an auto attack

[peak bobcat]

[velvet nacelle]

oof so much to catch up on. i haven't played since my guild stalled on painsmith

am i reading the pins right? get 2 sylv daggers? does the proc stack that way?

[balmy condor]

Yes

[pure mauve]

Hello just seen changes to talent tree abilities overall buffed or nerfed?

[cerulean junco]

@balmy condor Have you tested kingsbane during deathmark yet

[velvet nacelle]

Thanks

[balmy condor]

Deathmark isn’t working properly yet and kingsbane does less damage than an auto attack

[balmy condor]

Tuning determines that, the changes gave us more options

If you like the options, then it’s a win

If you don’t, then you don’t

[pure mauve]

Are serrated bones good in any scenario?

[cerulean junco]

may have some interaction with this.

Will have to see with tuning

[pure mauve]

scent of blood gives 3'5% extra agility or just 3.5 points?

[cerulean junco]

looks like its not % based

[pure mauve]

Seems pretty low

[balmy condor]

Tuning.

alpha.

There is no tuning yet.

Don’t look at numbers

Numbers are your enemy until like mid November

[thin ingot]

i havent played a single new class on release since wotlk and now evoker rotation and playstyle looks like shit to me, and rogue looks so juicy

[brazen zodiac]

lol

[viscid spear]

🔢

Don't move or the digits get it!

[fleet whale]

Lets hope we don't see early Shadowlands numbers for sin again though in DF

working hard to barely beat tanks in M+ wasn't very fun

[royal lantern]

I dont belive in numbers

Wich is why im going to ignore sims from now on, and will tell everyone to go full feelcraft

[drifting cosmos]

i like the world where you only feelcraft

[toxic locust]

hmm

could a reworked version of echoing blades work to fix sin's aoe without seal fate?

significantly lowered echo damage to avoid the degen FoK spam, but the echoes generate a combo point

so it'd be point gen on crits, kinda like how sub gets find weakness without taking find weakness

• cool visual

[grizzled jay]

hello

[frank nest]

Does this mean you're thinking that pre-patch is early December, release late December, raid starts in January? Me like. Make it happen, k thanks!

[toxic locust]

i think it's a very reasonable guess

[gusty mirage]

[hollow river]

if you really think about it

with carnage we won't really need fok CPs

but every pack in between will be a bit scuffed lmao

[gleaming fable]

I was thinking ass might benefit from something similar to the silent storm talent that the sub tree got.

I guess its a bit too similar to master assassin tho

[slow marsh]

what would that do

the only reason sub has that is for free find weakness

[vast loom]

This might be a hot take but Ive been thinking about the tree a bit and it feels like with the issue of not wanting us to get DTB with Kings bane i feel like DTB just isnt that interesting. And i feel like having something else replace it might be healthier for Sin long term, maybe something Buffing envenom somehow since the whole middle section being themed around envenom (amp poison, twist, PB, Dashing).

[grizzled jay]

DTB is interesting if they made the new Lethal Poison both interesting with DTB and interesting to take on its own. Amp Poison is kinda lame.

Also issue is that DTB and Kingsbane both have the same theme: both are just giving you a (theoretically) stronger lethal poison than Deadly.

[vast loom]

I think the bigger issue is that with the 3rd choice ,after the ST choice (KB) and the AoE choice (Carnage), we just have a generic passive dmg increase. If we could take it with KB or Carnage we always would its not really a choice, it just locks our remaining choice nodes to it no matter what. Currently we kinda have 5 points to use where ever. Theres a lot of obvious choices in those 5 so its more like 1-3

[slow marsh]

I like DTB as a more passive sustained damage option.

[vast loom]

I think it being the "easy" option makes sense

It would be nice if they tuning maybe made it the 2-3 taget option

[whole mason]

Dtb is by itself a standalone strong option

[vast loom]

i know its strong

its just not as interesting as KB or IC

[timid cloud]

I just have Whispyr pick my silly little tree talents, then I put them into my silly little trees. Then I play my silly little game.

[whole mason]

Why... It's interesting I think

[slow marsh]

I think maybe the thing about DTB is that the path you take to it wants to incentivize poison usage via Amp poison, but amp poison, while in function is just passive damage, feels like it's maybe intended to be for juicier envenoms

Which goes against the grain for what DTB seems it wants to do

[vast loom]

yeah

thats why i think DTB could be reworked into a Envenom based thing

[slow marsh]

And naturally Kingsbane existing kind of kills any other 'poison stack' build

[timid cloud]

Did they move talents & stuff on Alpha already?

[vast loom]

what do you mean? we had the adding KB update a few days ago

but other than taht i dont think so

[grizzled jay]

also the fact that literally every talent in our tree empowers garrote or mutilate so these juiced envs are literally only juiced by just Amp.

[slow marsh]

Personally I think DTB being something similar to sub's talent that turns damage into shadow damage and amps it

Would be sick

[vast loom]

Yeah

that is interesting

[grizzled jay]

it isnt like we get compounding talents that juice env and THEN amp poison comes in and giga juices it

[slow marsh]

ye

[ember remnant]

turn bleeds into nature, so it could stack with shiv

[vast loom]

like making Envenom a low duration dot similar to Devo plague so it gets amped by DM and Letahl dose

[slow marsh]

I feel like something called DRAGON TEMPERED BLADES should be more than just you can use an extra poison

[grizzled jay]

also hate how you can't "bank" two amps. costs 20 but you can only store 30. should really allow us to store 2.

[slow marsh]

I was thinking something along these lines actually

[vast loom]

isnt it 15/20

[grizzled jay]

well w/e it is

[ember remnant]

side note, what is supposed to to give the rank 2 of poison bomb? more proc rate or more dmg? or both

[vast loom]

the intention is giving you a buffer to not over cap

[slow marsh]

R2 is prolly proc rate? I'd imagine

[whole mason]

What do you mean...?

[grizzled jay]

?

[vast loom]

Amp poison only gets consumed at 15stacks

[whole mason]

That should be fine.

[slow marsh]

I mean I think amp poison itself is perfectly fine as is

[vast loom]

he was just saying he wants it to stack 2x instead of just 5 extra

yeah

[slow marsh]

its what it leads into thats a bit counter intuitive to me

[vast loom]

its a good idea

[ember remnant]

even if you could have enough stacks for 2 proc, you'd be holding your envenom for so long

[grizzled jay]

good

[ember remnant]

unless you have to refresh rupture, you'd be holding

[grizzled jay]

envenom sucks. maybe that will get them to do something about it.

[vast loom]

I think with KB back

envenom has a real purpose

[grizzled jay]

having an ability only have purpose when 30000 things have to prop it up is an issue

[vast loom]

beyond just a SND that does dmg

[grizzled jay]

especially for a core skill

its diff when Exsang needs an insane amount of stats / trinkets / etc. to be propped up. that's a talent. but Env is our core damaging ability but it needs so much for it to even feel worth pressing.

[vast loom]

the buff portion of envenom is fine, it is still a decent portion of our dmg.

Its not like shiv levels of dmg lol

[ember remnant]

300% shiv dmg tho

[vast loom]

and without our 4p we would envenom a lot more

[grizzled jay]

having TTB back is pog

[vast loom]

TTB is still so little dmg

[grizzled jay]

i just like Shiv being free

[vast loom]

im pretty sure

[whole mason]

We're not pressing env now or what....

[grizzled jay]

rn? not really

Vendetta windows makes env a dps loss when you press it kekw

and during Shiv windows even CT is more dps than Envenom

[vast loom]

the top dmg log for halondrus has him pressing 25 envenoms in almost 6min

[grizzled jay]

that's every 14-15s or so

[vast loom]

the main reason being we press a lot of rupture/CT during vend and we maintain CT in ST

[whole mason]

This tier we still use env and ofc less because of the tier set

V will be gone.

[grizzled jay]

yes but my point was Env is so weak Crimson Tempest can overtake it in ST. that's whack.

[whole mason]

The over taking is because of tier set? Or not?

[grizzled jay]

no we maintain on ST even outside Shiv/Ven windows

[whole mason]

Maybe in DF we no longer have that number

[ember remnant]

technically speaking, envenom has less attack power than rank 1 eviscerate

talk about an "upgrade"

[celest ruin]

will there be tier sets in the first raid?

[hazy geyser]

seeing that in Home made me think for a second they swapped vigor with mfd and cold blood with deeper. That would've been so perfect even without the extra connections

[grizzled jay]

if you go off history, no. they usually skip tier in the first raid.

[vast loom]

I think they already confirmed we will?

[grizzled jay]

tier sets are borrowed power, so they want to see how the base classes work first, then use tier sets to balance them (instead of hard numbers, unless there's big outliers).

[vast loom]

unless the tier set designs dont come with tier set bonus

[grizzled jay]

think of like MoP, how there wasn't a "tier set" but the armor set from the first raid was still distinct on a per-armor basis

pretty sure that's what is happening in raid 1.

[whole mason]

CT has always been an attractive talent. Not necessarily related to env. Env is still the core, trading between env buff time to bleeding time is totally what we get from a finisher talent.

[vast loom]

Yeah in the past its always CT vs PB and thats a decent choice cuz both are like ST and AOe at the same time

where in DF CT isnt competeing directly with PB now so i hope its not attactrive ST anymore

[whole mason]

It is like having amp poison and not having dtb. Then we calculated amp poison's better and blaming deadly too weak? Not really.

[ember remnant]

with the buff to PB, its not like envenom will be truely dead, it doesnt hit hard but it does lots of stuff left and right in the tree

[vast loom]

even without PB

KB makes Envenom buff very important

[grizzled jay]

CT is not designed or intended to replace Envenom. Amp. Poison is a Lethal Poison so by its very design it needs to be better than DP so you have a reason to take it in a non-DTB build.

[whole mason]

Env buff by itself is very important. KB however requires it on an extreme 100% coverage.

[vast loom]

also it is entirely possible that During deathmark with doubled Amp poison we would cold blood an envenom

but mostlikely not since cold blood KB should work

[slow marsh]

as we've learned in the past

critting single envenoms doesn't do muchh

even if its juiced

[whole mason]

Not intended to replace env, but in a limited time with limited energy and limited CP, we use finishers and that's exactly how the replacement happening.

We selected a finisher talent using exactly the same resources that another finisher requires, there will be replacement and competition.

[vast loom]

the wording of deathmark makes me wonder if they want you to 'snapshot"
cuz its doesnt say that existing ones are duplicated
rather applied are duplicated

[ember remnant]

could anyone who've been on alpha tell.... does IC give you a buff for X seconds and you gotta use garrote and rupture individually to remove the buff completely? also, does it gets buffed if you use the garrote from stealth with nodes (SS, Iron wire)

[grizzled jay]

yes that is the idea.

no overhang is the goal though.

[vast loom]

when i said snapshot i mean snapshot at the end to overhang

[whole mason]

So you mean the duplicated dot disappear after D M's duration?

[grizzled jay]

i think that is the goal yes. because overhangs cause funky windows. like what we have now with Vendetta.

well by goal i don't mean Realz said that. but overhangs suck.

[vast loom]

Yeah id say i dont want it to overhang

[whole mason]

The reason overhang exists maybe is because the duration not strong as it should be.

[vast loom]

cuz at 15sec thats essentially 1 full garrote/ruptrue

but if it only doubles on reapply

then we lose a gcd or 2

[grizzled jay]

you should just press Garr/Rup once in the Deathmark for the dupe and that's all. you shouldn't have to play this weird mini-game inside the window where you want to refresh but as late as possible but also so you hit pandemic window on the dots. bad design imo.

[vast loom]

cuz deathmark doesnt look to be a OGCD

[grizzled jay]

ye its a gcd currently

carnage is off the gcd though

[vast loom]

carnage makes sense

it just buffs next ability

well 2

[ember remnant]

how long is the buff and can it be snapshotted?

[grizzled jay]

Deathmark? 14s.

or do you mean carnage

[ember remnant]

nah carnage

[grizzled jay]

not in alpha yet

[ember remnant]

[whole mason]

my hope is no buff time.

[slow marsh]

deathmark applies a dot

prolly will be on gcd

[whole mason]

so that we can separate the use of rup and gar from IC for two pullings.

[vast loom]

We would want them in 1 pull i assume tho

[ember remnant]

makes you wonder what the interaction between KB and deathmark gonna be like. and i would assume the double bleed/poison during deathmarks are being added to lethal dose

[vast loom]

I think its intended for that to be the case

[trail otter]

Am I the only one that thinks death mark would feel awful to press on gcd if it doesn't apply another garrote / rupture for you?

It feels super clunky

[vast loom]

but idk about hwo it would work with like CB on a duplicated bleed

do both crit?

only 1?

[grizzled jay]

it doesn't need to right? in the opener you just open with Mut with MA anyways

[whole mason]

no

[grizzled jay]

Mut SnD Mut Deathmark Garrote CT MfD Rup

[vast loom]

Nah prob opening with garrote i think

[whole mason]

gar SnD now

MA only 30

[grizzled jay]

opening with Garrote means you need to do Gar Deathmark Gar which will delay SnD. or if you mfd snd on the opener it delays Rup by a global. but i guess that might not be horrible.

[whole mason]

Gar SnD mut 4 dm rup mut kb env vanish gar mut shiv dance env mut mut env

I think Whispyr consider DM dup existing rup and gar

[grizzled jay]

if MA is devalued then Lethality is devalued which means you can take Subt and get the bonus CP from SS

[ember remnant]

MA may be only 30%, we'll get lots of crit regardless, with deadly precision and lethality, its a big help without investing anything just yet in crit

[whole mason]

why subt gives ss?

[grizzled jay]

cause it did in bfa

[whole mason]

subt gives stealth bonus?

[grizzled jay]

ye

[whole mason]

and sepsis?

[vast loom]

I think its prob gonna be a Gar > snd > mut > Deathmark > rupture > CB + dance + KB > MFD envenom or someshit

[whole mason]

I need confirmation. I dont think subt give bonuses anymore. Otherwise its' position is questionable.

[grizzled jay]

Sepsis doesn't from what I remember.

[vast loom]

Sepsis doesnt atm

but i assume it would be fixed

come DF

since dance also grants things that used to be only true stealth

[whole mason]

because that's confirmed by Realz?

[vast loom]

the sepsis part no

[grizzled jay]

the Dance part yes. Subt working on stealth stuff has always been the case as well, like I said in BFA it worked on SS for us.

[whole mason]

I dont think it is a good idea to assume design intent directly to other conditions.

historical reason is ok.

[ember remnant]

i mean, we dont need subt now that we have improved garrote making it no cd and can still be cast for 3 sec after stealth nah?

[whole mason]

but we need confirmation.

[vast loom]

If sepsis doesnt let us use Shrouded

seems kinda meh 🙂

even if it still sims well

[whole mason]

SS gives CP and not indicated by improved gar.