assassination

[gusty mirage]

Hateful chain enjoyer

[bleak spoke]

You can time the weapon if you put it on with a macro during a pull timer

But that’s exhausting

[bleak sky]

Before it resets?

Because cache is a hoe and always resets on pull

[gusty mirage]

Lmao they fixed that

[bleak spoke]

Oh they fixed it

[gusty mirage]

It just changes once you hit combat

I wanted a sigil forever from my vault so I could toss the cache in the garbage

I fucking hate holding it for axe

[bleak spoke]

My deathly macro had specifically a different trinket on so when I hit snd it’d put on the cache for xymox prog to line axe up with the add spawns

It was so stupid imo

[vast loom]

i never used the deathly macro cuz a lot of people bugged unity wiht it lol

[bleak spoke]

My unity rarely bugged in raid it was usually m+

Like I’m pretty sure I’ve bricked so many keys having to run out

[vast loom]

i just made 1 unity and kept it for everything 🙂

never bugged for me

[viscid spear]

Man I gotta move Dusk to chest?

[vast loom]

idk about now that its 291

the pin was made before that post late last night

[limber lion]

@vast loom we want Dusk on chest, so we can use the Mechagon rings instead

If you're not planning to use the rings, then doesn't matter

[vast loom]

even at 291 ilvl? thats monkaS

i trust

but still monka

[whole mason]

In keys, DM would be insignificant in aoe, right?

[limber lion]

We've simmed em all

Mechagon rings are too good

[limber lion]

Yes

[ebon notch]

i went from having to farm 1 cos ring

to 2 mecha rings

[copper hazel]

its ok daps, youll get a trade group np ez

[ebon notch]

already set one up with my boyo cev here

[whole mason]

I think this is a major missing for sin's aoe.

[copper hazel]

[limber lion]

?

We literally have the new IC for that

A completely new ability ONLY usable in AoE

[vast loom]

im like 90% sure that KB will always be more fun than DTB but when would we take DTB? maybe its good in like 2 target? but we dont even press FoK on 2 target

[limber lion]

We don't honestly know anything yet, tuning is tbd

Kingsbane might be tuned poorly where we never take it.

[vast loom]

yeah i assume DTB and KB are just tuning choices

[limber lion]

Poisons might be tuned really high, where we always take DTB

But yeh, just down to tuning really

[balmy condor]

Kingsbane for burst, dtb for sustain

Easy clap done

[vast loom]

1min burst cd that lines up with CB dance and deathmarks

seems hard to compete with lol

[limber lion]

Can't wait for every single weak aura to get completely destroyed in DF

[vast loom]

yeah

[thorny pond]

KB is flavor. DTB will be OP

[limber lion]

Press Deathmark, game crashes

[ebon notch]

[vast loom]

oh no

[limber lion]

d

[vast loom]

ooooh no

[thorny pond]

Just skip death mark take CT instead

5head

[vast loom]

i cant wait to help with WAs for DF so many combos

shit is gonna be scuffed

[balmy condor]

I can make a unique tree with these talent options, my choice is very good

[vast loom]

oh no theres a possibility of Amp poison and deathmark'd amp poison not being sync'd

so we might need to track both lol

[balmy condor]

I don’t think it’ll matter that much

[vast loom]

i assume we would not want to overcap amp poison

[balmy condor]

You’d still be getting 2 amp envenoms from each during Deathmark

[vast loom]

is deathmark working in alpha yet? i know a lot of shit doesnt work

[balmy condor]

No

[vast loom]

i could imagine some sort of tuning scenario where if your amp poisons are sync'd it might be worth using CB on that envenom or some shit

[balmy condor]

It’s possible yeah

[whole mason]

True. However, if we think in a way considering dm replacing V and IC most likely sitting as a choice in current talent tree. I mean, ofc in DF we can skip dm and try to focus more on aoe, but in the end we have a major cd newly designed and perfect synergy with either kb or dtb, and then not going well with IC. well, my apologies, i'm not making too much sense.

[vast loom]

Sin is always the ST guy in m+

we would be throwing to not take DF for bosses

DM*

[spice spire]

DN*

[vast loom]

we can also DM the prio target and still IC the pack

[sleek sundial]

there is actually no shoot you dont take DM in any tree

[whole mason]

I'm not saying that we need to not pick dm for aoe. imho, the creation of IC gives an impression for sin to shine in aoe, but the newly designed core part does not join the mix for its completeness.

[vast loom]

i dont think its there to make us a good aoe spec, it just guves us a passable aoe option that isnt just press rupture on everything for 30min

[whole mason]

IC gives a great upgrade/update for sin's aoe, however, it feels hanging in the middle.

[vast loom]

with dance and improved garrote

our aoe will already be a lot nicer

i think

im curious on how CB will interact with a IC Garrote

[whole mason]

I'm not saying our aoe will be bad or anything. or do i sound like i'm saying sin's aoe in df is going to be bad?

[limber lion]

You always take DM. Also, Vemdetta in its current form does nothing in AoE either. It's the same cooldown, just in different colors. It's used for single target, just like Vendetta was.

[vast loom]

i think i understand you are saying that IC was put there to make us not just shit in aoe but rather to give us a complete aoe package and DF doesnt really lend itself to aoe

so our aoe package feels "incomplete"\

[whole mason]

That's my indeed point. for example, give a choice node for dm for a major fitting more in cleave and aoe?

[vast loom]

i think IC fits that role really well since our bleeds are very potent in aoe its just not possible to really do mass aoe, but IC lets us do mass aoe with bleeds which is already huge dmg.

[bleak spoke]

The placement of venom rush and the fok talent is dumb

[limber lion]

Why?

[bleak spoke]

Flying blades or katar idr which

[limber lion]

You know we had nothing in Shadowlands

Now we have Shrouded Suffocation

IC

Bonespikes

[whole mason]

we have SBS in shadowlands already

[limber lion]

Which you don't play

You play Venthyr

[vast loom]

its gonna be kinda op if cold blood makes all our IC bleeds crit but i think it will only work on the primary target

[limber lion]

Idk what more you want

If you want giga aoe, sin is not the spwc for you

[bleak spoke]

I don’t think it’ll be op, just very very good

[limber lion]

Sorry to say.

[vast loom]

the only CD that would make sense for aoe would just be a generic dmg buff

[limber lion]

Shrouded Suffocation + Improved garrotes on all mobs

[vast loom]

which is just kinda boring

[limber lion]

Scent of Blood riptures on all mobs

Idk what more you want

[bleak spoke]

Yeh

[limber lion]

Sounds pretty crazy already lol

[bleak spoke]

It’s incredibly good compared to what we’ve had

[vast loom]

8*

🙂

wait

were actually capped at 9 targets i htink lol

[bleak spoke]

Sob was playable in key when we didn’t have aoe rupture, at least on sims

[gusty mirage]

a week in finland to hang out with you

[sturdy merlin]

Getting 8 ruptures is already crazy in aoe

[bleak sky]

Sob?

Oh

[bleak spoke]

Scent of blood

[sturdy merlin]

you have CT for uncapped damage

[bleak spoke]

Ct and two fok talents

And possibly fw for the foks, also builder crit stuff in class tree

It’ll be pretty smooth I think

Though I would have liked to see echoing blades and not katar

[vast loom]

im curious if iron wire will work with IC i assume it will

that seems kinda op

hella good for tanks

[bleak spoke]

Aoe silence on a 1:30 cd is kinda alright

[vast loom]

and 15% DR

tanks have giga time to setup

[bleak spoke]

The dmg reduction is pretty good for tanks yeh

Iron wires always been good in keys

It’s gonna be better now which is nice

In terms of timing high keys I think amp poison will give you the most clock back tbh

[vast loom]

would we even take Flying daggers?

[bleak spoke]

Like almost every class can aoe

[vast loom]

Poisoned is already in a weird spot too

[bleak spoke]

Prio is harder

[gusty mirage]

if we had a dungeon like dos where you do giga pulls I could see it being worth

but the free crit % from poisoned katar is just better in every way

[vast loom]

even with it requiring venom ruh?

[bleak spoke]

Can take both

[vast loom]

this is what im looking at

where you swap to amp on prio/boss pulls

F

forgot iron wire

maybe no EP?

idk

[bleak spoke]

https://i.imgur.com/7zPpc82.png

[bleak sky]

EP too good in dungeons

[vast loom]

yeah

[bleak spoke]

can throw out iron wire and put on more ep

[vast loom]

were forced into both EP and CTTC

for aoe

[bleak spoke]

dont have to

i rather my tank be alive

if necessary

probably not enough to take atrophic but

we can negotiate on iron wire

[vast loom]

i just dont like flying daggers much seems kinda weak for 2 points

[bleak spoke]

honestly flying dagger is so inconvenient they should have just put echoing blades there and been like that's the price you have to pay

https://i.imgur.com/Q4DBpKa.png

[gusty mirage]

nah EP is giga in aoe

you'd probably remove one point from CttC there

[vast loom]

we cant

if we want poisoned

[gusty mirage]

true

fuck it

don't take that either

[vast loom]

unless poisoned is shit

[bleak spoke]

yeah you can just don't take flying blades

[vast loom]

lolol

[bleak spoke]

the poisoned is probably better

flying daggers needs 5 targets it looks like

to be more than qol

[gusty mirage]

just a free 8% (lol ty for nerfing this btw) with all the finishers you end up doing in aoe

[bleak spoke]

probably not even worth it

[gusty mirage]

is kinda huge

[bleak spoke]

why dashing

[vast loom]

1 point left

[bleak spoke]

why atrophic

[gusty mirage]

I'd probably just remove poison and amp poison

tbh

[bleak spoke]

take a poison bomb point off mine

[gusty mirage]

only 1 point in EP

[bleak spoke]

put it in ep

yeah

[gusty mirage]

[bleak spoke]

i have 2 in pb

[gusty mirage]

yeah

[bleak spoke]

1 is fine maybe none is better even

[gusty mirage]

only issue is, where else would you put it right?

[vast loom]

i was doing no Poison or flying daggers

[bleak spoke]

can honestly take away both and take exsang for bosses

or ib kidney if single point ib is better than env cast

like it is on live

[vast loom]

cuz CTTC is incredibly low value on aoe

[bleak spoke]

or just ttk

it's got pretty high mental health value

[vast loom]

i was thinking we just would only use amp poison on bosses

[gusty mirage]

fun fact

[vast loom]

and swap to deadly prepuill

[gusty mirage]

IB is good prio dam & good energy regen

[bleak spoke]

having to press snd will cause me to brick more keys than having less throughput

yeh

[vast loom]

didnt they nerf venomous to not work with IB

[bleak spoke]

i've loved it since seli explained it was the best wayi to kill ghuunies

holy moly that was half a decade ago

[gusty mirage]

I hope not

that'd be a weird ass nerf

[bleak spoke]

nah that only shows up in there if you talent ib

in game

probably the same way

[vast loom]

oh

maybe

[gusty mirage]

wait maybe I got alpha access

[bleak spoke]

if it does work like that itd be pretty weird

prayge

[gusty mirage]

unlucky

maybe next week

[royal lantern]

Oxi going trought his Guy Phase rn

[bleak spoke]

i think there's no way you take atrophic poison in key

unless it's actually required to live

[gusty mirage]

I've gotten exactly 1 beta access in my life

[bleak spoke]

but if it is

[gusty mirage]

and that was TBC

[bleak spoke]

then your group needs to get more verse and avoidance probably

and not have you play atrophic poison

[royal lantern]

Bruh, i get beta all the tune

[gusty mirage]

I'd be genuinely shocked if I even got beta access to dragonforce

[bleak spoke]

i was the only person in my guild who didn't get slands access

[balmy condor]

Yeah me too, no way you don’t get in before that

[royal lantern]

And all i do is Log in make a rogue, hit a dummy for 4second and saying "yep, this is a rogue" and then never go in again

[bleak spoke]

right now only our dh has it but he writes the wowhead guide

so he got alpha from that angle

honestly the more i think about it the worse poisoned katar seems

maybe it's actually not worth

whats the only buffers for fok dmg anyway?

[vast loom]

we also

have dance with MA

[balmy condor]

Just tuning question

[bleak spoke]

deadly precision, lethality, etc

[vast loom]

so we should ahve decent crits

[bleak spoke]

yeh

i think there's a decent chance poison bomb might jus tbe better

[vast loom]

i say should

[balmy condor]

I think it’s easy to look at individual talents for fok/generators and go “oh that’s bad”

[vast loom]

but we still might have 1 cp fans

[bleak spoke]

or if exsang is good standalone in st then you take it for boss damage

i think the conduit really sours the brand for poisoned katar

like its so mid

and if you don't take it you can skimp out on at least a point of cut

though maybe it's fine to take neither, have mfd and just mfd snd before every pull cba

yeah i think that's the angle you're always gonna have mfd from having seal fate so you just acquire snd from marking something in a pack prepull

instead of from cut

[vast loom]

we can get 48% crit with 0 crit on gear during dance

for fok

[bleak spoke]

its like rolling the bones but the only buff you can roll is annoyance

[vast loom]

maybe a no SBS angle for max zold

[bleak spoke]

what is the base application chance for poisons

[vast loom]

30?

[bleak spoke]

also there's no way you play a key without amp poisn

it's just too good

imo

[vast loom]

is it?

[bleak spoke]

like while yo'ure setting it, your prio target will be cooking

[vast loom]

are we gonna get it to 15 stacks?

[bleak spoke]

you'll be doing prio before you start targetting it

[vast loom]

without mutilates and shit

[bleak spoke]

melee swings will stack it fast

[remote oak]

!guide

[prisma monolith]

Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue

[bleak spoke]

then at some point after you've put up bleeds and you've shivved it, you can pop and envenom into it to pop the stacks

[vast loom]

we can already do good prio with DM

[bleak spoke]

okay like

prio being better is rarely every not good

[vast loom]

is an extra 30% dmg envenom that good

idk how many we would get on a prio target

[bleak spoke]

so like if you consider a pack not as a dps check in terms of what you end at overall

but like

as a series of possible wipe conditions

suddenly that sesems really good

like its often the case that the timer on successfully killing a hard pack is predicated on the death of one of the mobs yeah

also your amp poison will stack on other mobs in the pull

and by the end you can cash out probably

[vast loom]

i just think with all our dmg in bleeds and poisons that just getting more execute with zold and DM would just be better

[bleak spoke]

if it's a high enough key

i think one point of zoldycks is so incredibly mid

[acoustic ruin]

The thing with amp poison aswell though is the damage gained from the envenom better than the damage lost from the poison itself

[bleak spoke]

yeh it's just a net gain as long as you can cash out

[vast loom]

im saying we go out of doomblade and SBS

[bleak spoke]

i wonder if MP can build stacks faster

[vast loom]

for full zold

[bleak spoke]

its not likely but

[vast loom]

cuz on fast packs that die in one IC window its just giga dam, for prio dmg execute is always good

[bleak spoke]

if everything dies to your ic window

then you shouldn't worry about prio at all probably

and just take fok talents

cuz like then stuff isn't going to be dangerous enough

[vast loom]

well you cant take zold at all if you get fok talents]

[bleak spoke]

like the event horizon is usually tank defensive related or healer external related

yeah but if mobs die fast zoldycks is low value

like i haven't really pushed much this expansion but like zoldycks was like honestly worse feeling than dashing in like a 25 top

and that would have been 3 points

its not hte same i know

but like

[vast loom]

yeah i get it, dashing prob good value with dance and MA

[bleak spoke]

it should be worse not better in dragonflight if we're getting more bursty

i think maybe 1 point in dashing was the right idea you had

[vast loom]

thats why i think 1 point in it might be good

[bleak spoke]

yeh

if nothing else like it'll make st more pleasant

[vast loom]

yeah doomblade for SBS just seems really bad in m+

[bleak spoke]

nah it's actually really nice to have sbs in m+

cuz like

[vast loom]

SBS is great

[bleak spoke]

you don't want to play a lot of haste

[vast loom]

doomblade is just dedge

[bleak spoke]

so having a low energy builder

you do actually spend a lot of time killing bossses

even not on tyran

[vast loom]

that is true

idk how much dmg doomblade itself is

[bleak spoke]

like ~20-25% of your time in a key on fort i'd say

its just free dmg yeah

[vast loom]

does doomblade scale off of maim and mangle?

[bleak spoke]

bone spike is probably worth both nodes

i assumed it would

[vast loom]

same

[bleak spoke]

but taking maim/mangle for m+ is surely way worse than taking doomblade

[vast loom]

yeah i was thinking no PB

or dashing

[bleak spoke]

given the payoff is blindside in that little path

[vast loom]

but thats jsut bad

[bleak spoke]

and not sbs

[vast loom]

PB makes our occasional envenom press maybe good

[bleak spoke]

what i is if they took the proc icd off poison bomb

that would be so sick

if you could pop off

[vast loom]

whats the icd now?

[bleak spoke]

idr, but it's always 3.5% of your damage its been that way for years no

regardless like imo that would be a good reason to take rupture off of the possible things you can do to proc it

cuz of IC

[vast loom]

it only procs on envenom now tho so maybe they can remove icd

[bleak spoke]

they buffed its chance from 4 to 5% as well

[vast loom]

i think it should be 100% if proper usage of envenom

[bleak spoke]

so maybe like in taking rupture off the trigger conditions you can casino some poison bombs and time some dead keys

[vast loom]

rng PB feels bad

[bleak spoke]

i think seli's angle years ago was like you should always get one after shivving

well, toxic blade at the time

[vast loom]

or just make it an actual button

an aoe finisher

throw a vial situation

[bleak spoke]

then you have ct but bad

well you can tune it so it's good

but

[vast loom]

true

i forgot ct LOL

[bleak spoke]

its literally just poison ct just not as interesting?

[vast loom]

i mean is PB interesting atm lol

[bleak spoke]

no but it can be

[gusty mirage]

doubtful

[bleak spoke]

if you tie it to another ability like shiv

[gusty mirage]

without completely redesigning it

how do you make it interesting

[bleak spoke]

like if it always triggers on your first env after shivving

[vast loom]

i just dont know what the point of PB is supposed to be

[bleak spoke]

and we actually get 2 shiv charges like this implies

[vast loom]

did it exist before CT>

[bleak spoke]

pretty sure it was big in legion

[vast loom]

maybe if amp poison instead of just being a dmg increase

it acted like we spent giga CP on envenom

so we could get a PB proc

[bleak spoke]

yeh but then i htink you just make it a huge hit and not a proc

so you can't randomly proc pb

but you have to cash out amp poison

[vast loom]

yeah

[gusty mirage]

what would be neat

is making PB do something with envenom

rather than what it does now

which is a random damage proc that does piss poor damage

[bleak spoke]

oh so like modifying the env dmg

or something?

[gusty mirage]

yeah

[bleak spoke]

refunding combo points maybe

[gusty mirage]

that way it ties into TtK/Amp Poison

[bleak spoke]

hitting two envs in a row feels real good

[vast loom]

make it do envenoms dmg in a cleave?

[bleak spoke]

wait

[vast loom]

like it explodes

on the target

[bleak spoke]

am i reverse engineering dfa

[gusty mirage]

yeye that'd be a good idea too

[vast loom]

an actual bomb

[bleak spoke]

wait but what if they just gave us dfa

[vast loom]

not a gross puddle

[gusty mirage]

like if it procs it's like a 3 yd cleave around your target

or some shit

yep

[gusty mirage]

my brother, dfa is gone forever

it's rotted corpse is alive as a pvp talent

that's the best we're getting

[bleak spoke]

my brother in christ if dfa is gone forever how is nahj still immuning sheeps with dfa to this day

but yeah

pvpdfa is nothing like

its so sick though

[gusty mirage]

I played dfa against a DH/rdruid in 2s

I fuckin sniped that mfer

across the map

[vast loom]

i still think taht stuff like vicious venoms and maim and mangle should buff envenom dmg rather than our builders, builder dmg increase is boring

[bleak spoke]

you can chase a warlock port with dfa if you time it right

its so insane

and transcendence

and if you get sheeped or feared you can dfa it and you'll not only break out of it you'll also have a layer of dr

it's too bad my hands are too bad to actually pvp good

[bleak spoke]

i'm fine with sin having buffs on like bleeds/poisons

i think it would seem more reasonable to have stuff like that like if sub actually had finisher buffer

s

but y'know

blizzard thinks we love shadowstrike

[vast loom]

yeah i just hate TTB and VV

oh poggies my 1k dmg button

does 3k now

big

[bleak spoke]

vv?

[balmy condor]

Builder stuff is fine

[vast loom]

i just think its boring

[gusty mirage]

I think TTB's new spot is perfectly fine for what it is

getting to an end point you want

a nice bonus

ya know?

[balmy condor]

It would be more boring to not have the option at all

[vast loom]

yeah but id rather have the same % overall dmg be put into fun stuff

[bleak spoke]

yeh i think kingsbane is a valid reward

[balmy condor]

If everything was just bleeds and poisons the tree would be terrible

[bleak spoke]

i do wish that ttb just buffed the next finisher you casted and not the shiv cast itself like

it's so limp

[vast loom]

like it is fine but it could be cooler

[bleak spoke]

it just feels lame kinda

[slow marsh]

I like the new version of VV compared to the old one

[vast loom]

like when i read something that says "X is doing 300% extra dmg" i assume thats gonna be a big number now

[bleak spoke]

i really wish there was a way to get dragon tempered blades and kingsbane

[vast loom]

but really its just gonna go from a tiny number to a okay number

[bleak spoke]

wait

what if the angle

[slow marsh]

improved garrote is boring, nobody complaining about thtat

[bleak spoke]

is actually the new ability

and not going down the left side

and double poisons

[vast loom]

improved garrote changes how i paly AoE tho compared to if i didnt have it

[balmy condor]

Does it?

What else would you cast from stealth

[vast loom]

it lets me press it 2 more times

[balmy condor]

Oh

[thorny pond]

Mutilate

[balmy condor]

Yes very huge

[thorny pond]

Ambush

[vast loom]

its atleast something noticeable

[slow marsh]

and if you didn't have imp garrote you'd still take subterfuge so really it doesn't change any gameplay

[bleak spoke]

oh you can't get dragon tempered with ic

this is doa

MADGE

[thorny pond]

Subterfuge can get bent. Find a new angle

[vast loom]

which prevents taking Dragon Tempered + an additional capstone. Carnage and Kingsbane CANNOT be taken alongside dragon tempered. That's intentional.

[bleak spoke]

yeh

intentionally anti fun

reasonable tbh

[vast loom]

if you could take it

[storm onyx]

Builder dmg increase enables overall dmg to be higher while not going overboard in bleeds/poisons too. The moment Bliz focuses dmg to a line, all players begin to complain talents hit like wet noodles as well …

[bleak spoke]

with kingsbane at least

[vast loom]

it would be always take it

[bleak spoke]

yeh

with IC a lil less so

like ven wounds wouldn't double proc anyway

unless it does

[vast loom]

im pretty sure it does

[bleak spoke]

wat

[vast loom]

that seems to be the point

of DTB

[bleak spoke]

i can see that being the case

[slow marsh]

My only complaint is that I'd like to see VV proc off fan

[vast loom]

it would also dupe both with DM

[bleak spoke]

even though the grammar on vw is like "poisoned" target

but like

[vast loom]

i can agree with this 100%

[bleak spoke]

its like i guess if you have more than 1 lethal poison like

[vast loom]

maybe even swap its spot with venom rush

[slow marsh]

Na imo VR is in a great spot now

[bleak spoke]

but the real issue is like if you're aoe and youre going down the center its like you have so much energy to do what with

[slow marsh]

You should have to work towards VV, don't give it for free

[vast loom]

if VV applied to FoK then we could get flying daggers with it

[bleak spoke]

i think VR is in a fine spot, just flying daggers isn't

like it shouldn't be gated behind vr

thats 4head

[slow marsh]

yeye no argument here

[bleak spoke]

maybe if that line from vr actually came from ct

would just fix it

so like after taking ct you can go a bridge further kinda deal

[slow marsh]

the aoe stuff is just in unfort spots

they already seem pretty low impact in the grand scheme

[bleak spoke]

https://i.imgur.com/whEcM3L.png like this instead of like how it is

[slow marsh]

and then are behind cttc and VR

[bleak spoke]

i think it shouldn't be flying daggers i think it should be echoing blades

[vast loom]

i think if they swaped CTTC and EP

[bleak spoke]

and then it would own

[vast loom]

it would just fix that

[bleak spoke]

yeh

that actually would fix that

[vast loom]

doesnt change anything for ST

[bleak spoke]

so you can take 2 points in ep and either 1 in cut or none at all

yeh you'll likely end up with both in st anyway

regardless

[slow marsh]

I think none in cttc is the play now

[bleak spoke]

you do get mfd yeh

and more energy

[vast loom]

yeah no CTTC gang

[bleak spoke]

i think in key you don't take cut

[vast loom]

rise up

[bleak spoke]

cuz like you can mfd prepull on a pack

and just snd then walk in

your garrotes gonna overcap you anyway

[slow marsh]

we talked about it yesterday, getting cttc which is a non dps talent in order to save you from casting slice 3 times in a fight is kinda meh compared to what you miss out on

[outer iris]

Guys, its kind of a random question, i didn't have the chance to play much in Bfa, and im just intrested, was Assa rogue good in M+ ?

[bleak spoke]

yeah

it was really hard to play

[vast loom]

in bfa?

[bleak spoke]

but it was theoretically fantastic

[vast loom]

i heard it had a good patch or 2

[bleak spoke]

nah it was good the whole time

@marble hemlock was the best at it

[vast loom]

was it meta? or jsut good

[bleak spoke]

by far

not meta because outlaw was easier

[vast loom]

ah

[bleak spoke]

and gouge

[outer iris]

Thank you ! 🙂

[bleak spoke]

made your tank tankier

and bte was a 6s stun

[vast loom]

yeah i rememeber BTE was op op

[bleak spoke]

so you rotationally disjointed stacked auto swings in a pack

[vast loom]

big stun

big dmg

[bleak spoke]

i miss bfa outlaw

that was when i was actually decent player

also the dungeons were better

and also shrouded suffocation

decent chance i'll love dragonflight just because of being able to garrote 3 times out of stealth and getting full combo points

[cursive orchid]

spaming fok is not that hard

[bleak spoke]

i mean if you were playing sin over outlaw in a high key imo you would never play the echoing builds yah

like you were doing it for a reason

and usually the reason was you needed to vendetta something so you ended up playing like 3ss2ttk1eb

so you played bleed sin anyway

instead of fok man

anyway part of the difficulty of playing sin was usually with the rest of the team too because you lost a bunch of control that you expected to have from having outlaw

and its like wow stuff hurts when its not stopped

etc

[cursive orchid]

that is not true

+26 atal

azerites were dungeon specific

[bleak spoke]

...

okay like

single keys don't represent anything

one time i convniced seli to play hidden blades man like

[cursive orchid]

chek it yourself

season 2 eb bis

[bleak spoke]

https://i.imgur.com/qP3858T.png like i did this when wf was a 24 at the time

can this be used as proof that double dose is good

in key

like

just because you can't

can*

doesn't mean you should

[cursive orchid]

azerites were dungeon specific

[bleak spoke]

just because its timed

doesn't mean its right

also it depended on comp more than anything

[gusty mirage]

playing with a sin rogue that isn't me?

[bleak spoke]

i was the sin rogue idiot

[gusty mirage]

my point still stands

[bleak spoke]

[gusty mirage]

we could have played double sin rogue

[vast loom]

wasnt that when tyran were dead weeks too

[bleak spoke]

yes

[gusty mirage]

a fellow NP enjoyer

[bleak spoke]

this was probably one of the handful of tyrans that were timed then

[vast loom]

btw i stole for my own server too 🙂

[gusty mirage]

I think we stole it from seli

[vast loom]

big

[gusty mirage]

so

[marble hemlock]

[bleak spoke]

honestly sin's most awful key mouth-feel wise was waycrest for sure

when the worms

would destealth you

oh my god

perma mad

[violet jackal]

mist of tirna maze still destealths you

[bleak spoke]

ydh

its awful too

weird how they seem to only fix the bugs that benefit players in keys

[gusty mirage]

oh that one's my favorite

very cool

[bleak spoke]

if i get knocked out by the door opening maybe my tank should be able to pull thru the wall with a trinket

you feel me

[violet jackal]

Remember when starfall use to pull the whole maze?

[bleak spoke]

the starfall classic innit

if it's a new expansion

starfall will pull entire dungeons in every dungeon

[gusty mirage]

I remember when starfall pulled literally everything in front of the third boss in PF

[vast loom]

does hunter still have barrage

[copper hazel]

ye

[vast loom]

are barrage memes still a thing lol

[bleak spoke]

hasn't that talent been awful for a while now

[vast loom]

probably

[bleak spoke]

it looks so scuffed

[vast loom]

havnt seen it used all expac i think

[shrewd ruin]

Quick question for anyone (most of the people here) who's more skilled than myself. I'm trying out some pvp on my sin rogue, and am curious if running 1,3,3,2,1,2,1 is the right talent set choice. As well as if anyone has an opinion on venth vs NF for 2v2/3v3 arena. Also good to note, I'm new to pvp, outside of war mode in bfa. No pvp experience since then

[bleak sky]

#pvp is your best bet

[gusty mirage]

You want to play necro or night fae, not venthyr in arena

and you don't want MA because the crit multiplier is nerfed in pvp so you'd get more value out of subterfuge + it has the usefulness if you get knocked out of stealth you can still get your empowered garrote up

your ideal talents would be 1/2/3/3/1/2/1

if you play night fae you play dreamweaver triple potency, or if you play necro you play marileth:
Potencies would be: well placed steel, lethal poisons, and the covenant ability conduits

endurance would be: recuperator & cloaked in shadows because vanish is a defensive CD in pvp

finesse would be quick decisions

[shrewd ruin]

Ok, thank you. Tried running a bunch of rounds yesterday and was getting my ass kicked 🤣 I'll look around in #pvp for more info. Thanks!

[gusty mirage]

just play games and you'll get the feel for it

assassination is super squishy

and if you don't see yourself using feint enough or being able to pre-feint stuns

you can swap elusive for cheat death

[shrewd ruin]

Squishy indeed, I almost need to keep my defensives on cooldown to survive at my current skill. Stuns are definitely a hard thing to predict for me, but I'm sure I'll figure it out. Or, I'll just ask a crap ton of questions and hope something sticks 😬

[gusty mirage]

yeah if you can comm during games it can be super helpful

esp if you play with people who have a ton of games

they can help give you pointers and stuff

[shrewd ruin]

The one guy that's in my guild and on as often as I am, for some reason, refuses to talk in disc. Usually just tells me who to stab and takes care of the rest himself lol but that might be better to have some pointers every once in a while

[gusty mirage]

oh yeah I had a buddy like that

he'd prefer to just blast music and game out

[shrewd ruin]

Could be what he's doing, dudes a beast at druid pvp (pun intended)

[gusty mirage]

yeah you'll also learn a lot just playing with them, but if you find yourself struggling with something just ask him for things you could've done better

a lot of these pvpers have so many games that they can accurately predict how most games will play out

because it's all a script

[shrewd ruin]

As in mage rogue combos are instant wins?

[gusty mirage]

mage rogue combos are usually instant wins

you have like 1 win condition, rogue mage has like 1000

[shrewd ruin]

Yeah, the rounds I played against that combo sucked. Couldn't keep the mage pinned down, and the rogue had some elite rating, so needless to say it didn't end well 😆

[gusty mirage]

yeah 2s is rough you'll run into a LOT of carries

[shrewd ruin]

Seems like it. I've been stuck with a 229 dagger for... 128 dungeons in a row, so I figured a pvp one is easier and quicker to get at the rate I'm getting loot

[gusty mirage]

yeah for sure pvp will be easier because it's linear right?

there's a finish line rather than "maybe possibly getting a dagger this run"

[viscid spear]

Logic Loop of Division & Overclocking Bit Band

[gusty mirage]

I pray that this is better than court ring + something else

pls

I can't handle another legion TW

[viscid spear]

I guess you could get Shorting Bit Band as well, but Overclocking is the obv choice

[gusty mirage]

shorting bit was a dece amount of damage

[viscid spear]

But pointless on ST, no?

I was a loser when it came to Mechagon

[gusty mirage]

it was okay damage in ST

nothing crazy but like it was free damage

plus I never had the overclocking bit band drop for me

[viscid spear]

So the Nature damage would hit your current target if there's nothing else nearby?

[gusty mirage]

yuppers

[viscid spear]

Guess the wording messed me up

[gusty mirage]

yeah I mean it makes it seem like something near your current target

but I'm pretty sure it's an enemy near you

[viscid spear]

"...then you deal x Nature damage to a nearby target" thought it meant nearby your current target

For some reason I can't recall I was very inactive during the time Mechagon was a thing

[gusty mirage]

yeah it was based off of you iirc

[viscid spear]

I also didn't do the Kara dungeon very often in Legion, so farming for EoC will be an adventure

[gusty mirage]

tyranical

flame wreath

[viscid spear]

[warm parcel]

@gusty mirageacceptable first time dreads right?

[viscid spear]

Tyrannical Moroes

[gusty mirage]

were you playing necro?

[warm parcel]

only wiped us twice on star lad

na

just venthyr

[gusty mirage]

can you come coach some of my raid team?

[warm parcel]

idno man

I couldnt find a hole to jump into

kinda sus

[gusty mirage]

mfers have seen this boss so many times

and they still just mess it up

[warm parcel]

also took one collapsing star to the face

[viscid spear]

I'm thinking of how these old dungeons they're bringing back are going to be like with current affixes
Grimrail Depot with Spiteful or Storming?

[gusty mirage]

hopefully it storms me off the train

and I die irl so I never have to do grimrail again

and fuck whoever voted for that piece of shit dungeon

[viscid spear]

What if I did?

[cursive orchid]

what would have been your choice?

[winter hill]

skyreach

[viscid spear]

I can just picture it in the LFD tool
Skyreach +15"
Must have Ready For Raiding IV

[vast loom]

what are the 2 wod dungeons?

[cursive orchid]

docks and train

[vast loom]

i dont remember most of the dungeons but everbloom has decent memories for me i think lol

[pulsar apex]

these pandemic indicators are "wrong" when under 4pc Ven right?

[balmy condor]

They’re close enough

2.7 on garrote, 3.6 on rupture

Looks good to me

You’re also at the end of vendetta, so you should’ve refreshed both of those

Should be seeing like 10 seconds on garrote, 12 on rupture

[vast loom]

yeah you force refresh if they are under non vend pandemic, and you are ~3 sec on vend

[pulsar apex]

i think i confused things with the image. they light up at normal pandemic times even during ven

[balmy condor]

Oh

[vast loom]

oh yeah thats wrong

[balmy condor]

Yeah that’s wrong

It’s half

This should tell you everything you need

[pulsar apex]

and yeah i try and refresh a garrote and a rupture just as ven is ending

but thats a seperate thing.

[vast loom]

!cev

[pulsar apex]

hmm yeah i think ive been refreshing ven bleeds way early

[vast loom]

idk the command

for the wa l;ol

[balmy condor]

There is none

[vast loom]

D:

is it a pin

[balmy condor]

No

[vast loom]

[balmy condor]

The only named command is fuu’s spreadsheet

[spice spire]

https://wago.io/rk2kEs76d

[vast loom]

Yeah! yoink those and put them in your pack

they work well

[spice spire]

That doesn’t look like afenar

[slow marsh]

@gusty mirage do you have a code to rotate through prof pics or what

[gusty mirage]

industry secret

also this is my twitch pfp

[warm parcel]

whopping 14k dps

[timid cloud]

Who has the meme with the troll rogue with all of the daggers?

[balmy condor]

BANGER ALERT

[warm parcel]

no loot tho

woulda been hilarious if I stole a mount too

[balmy condor]

You mean me with me eon?

[timid cloud]

LOL

God I love it.

[balmy condor]

With my vault rng at the end of 9.1

And the “increased drop rate” next season

I would probably have 2 in my vault every week

[timid cloud]

Yeah, my rogues swimming in daggers.

My hunter, suffering in the streets.

Like a helpless animal.

[marble hemlock]

You got so many in S2, you wont get any in S4.

[balmy condor]

I’m also not playing s4

So that helps

[marble hemlock]

As I said. You wont get any in S4.

[timid cloud]

Who will give me my S4 research though…

[balmy condor]

Me

[timid cloud]

[brave gyro]

well i entered 9.2 with my 9.0 phial because i didnt get an upgrade the whole patch - not from M+, not from M0, not from vault - so I unsubbed

[violet jackal]

Me

[timid cloud]

[lone junco]

my favorite usecase for exang was when the longer duration bleed was condensed within a short buff duration. Like a /use mainstat trinket.

Vanish
NS Rupture
Vendetta + /use (10sec agi buff) + Exang.

and even more specifically when that aligned with BOTA for a short duration bleed dmg multiplier.

So yeah, the pulse of energy is probably how it wound up being used in BFA. the Buff duration overlapping was my favorite.

Im sure there is an IQD Mastery build that could make it strong, but I doubt that would exceed a normal haste build.

assassin dance would allow multiple NS Ruptures to be out at once right? and would the dance activate the 50% crit talent?

[spice surge]

Its only 30% iirc, but also dont think it would activate it as it doesnt do that as sub

[lone junco]

26 apm again please, and thanks.

[vast loom]

The pins say that the intention is for dance to work with all stealth talents

[lone junco]

im excited for this. always liked that playstyle.

[lone junco]

adding ambush to rotation sounds horrible. access to subterfuge in ST will be awkward, and dance NS ruptures would be interesting, but they have to scale high enough to matter.

so 50% crit is likely the play for sure

[warm parcel]

I mean the dance stealth benefits are just to tuning

He did say to RTFC when asked about dance and stealth benefits

But even thats a bit ironic as some stuff that would read to benefit in the past hasnt

:D

So who knows how well end up

[vast loom]

We would still use mutilate for more cp

[balmy condor]

Unsure

Ambush/mut is always a delicate balance

It’s been +-0.4% all expansion to use or not use

[winter hill]

what's rftc?

rtfc*

[warm parcel]

#pvp message

[spice spire]

Magic the virgining enjoyer

[vestal wren]

Read the fucking card iirc

in wow terms it would be tooltip instead, problem however is that tooltips often don't have all information

and diving into spell data, logs and the underlying structure is not easy

[warm parcel]

basic implication was

if something benefits stealth

it should also benefit dance

but thats not historically accurate was my counter to it

[vestal wren]

agree

it was to a degree logical on subtlety

one of the mainstream content creators did talk about "real stealth" to describe the differences iirc

[slow marsh]

ironic

[slow marsh]

ambush isn't horrible at all. kinda fun actually to me personally but i'm a psycho

[toxic locust]

ambush is cool

[thorny pond]

It just feels plain for sin is all

[boreal cloud]

can I evasion anything on mythic jailer?

[slow marsh]

Sure currently, but I feel like I wouldn't mind it with new blindside + VV

getting ambush into ambush procs would add some much needed spice to our otherwise generic rotation. nothing too crazy just a lil something something

[spice spire]

!bos

[prisma monolith]

Please Contribute by filling out the form on the title card with any info you have tested
This sheet is community-driven and may have some inaccuracies or be slightly out of date. You can help fix this by contributing!
Rogue Defensives usability: http://tiny.cc/q602uz

[thorny pond]

The only spice in this channel is salt

[boreal cloud]

@spice spire ty

[slow marsh]

i like to think that there's some paprika here and there

[lone junco]

i just prefer 4cps to 2.

[oak sky]

should compare 4 to 3 because you're assuming mut crits

[chilly marsh]

no buffs for sin sad

[slow marsh]

I want to mess around with an imp ambush + blindside build but not sure if it's worth giving up Lethality + deadly precision

I must say I really like all the small variations you seem to be able to pull off with this new tree though. A+ from me

[burnt latch]

Acrobatic strikes is a bigger dps gain than alacricity

Prove me wrong

[royal lantern]

we cant

its a fact

[burnt latch]

Truth

[gray warren]

Whispyr had a good point earlier, saying that mutilate hit with both of your blades so you can apply poisons more often. So in a kingsbane build it feels bad to hit ambush that only hit once :/

[slow marsh]

yeah fair

I'm just poking around at potential builds given different tuning, not necessarily going for peak optimization

[gray warren]

yea i feel it would be cool to have this big exec phase too 🙂

[slow marsh]

Like if ambush ends up doing mega damage and blindside does end up being 7-8% talent like koji is initially projecting, I wanted to see if you could pull off getting imp ambush in there without giving up too much

Plus who wouldn't want 100 combo points

/s

[gray warren]

ahah

fair

[lunar granite]

@gusty mirage how do I play rouge?

[gusty mirage]

you tell your friend herbie he sucks at DK

thanks for coming to my ted talk

[lunar granite]

[vast loom]

maybe a DTB build for more lethal dose for bigger ambus

[slow marsh]

Lethal dose doesn't work like that anymore

[vast loom]

oh true

i forgot

[slow marsh]

ye

Speaking of lethal dose and looking at it again though, I think KB+sepsis+dance could be nasty enough to make me forget about blindside

[vast loom]

im curious about sepsis vs sbs on ST

[slow marsh]

since KB + Sepsis together should be lethal dose stonks

[vast loom]

sbs is just just perma uptime for lethal dose

[slow marsh]

fair actually sbs would pump KB just as much I suppose

[vast loom]

yea

[slow marsh]

I was thinking more of maximizing dance window

[vast loom]

true

theres just too many questions lol

and its all based on tuning

[slow marsh]

Yeah but its a good spot to be in like I said. I'm glad there's actually different potentially viable builds depending on tuning

[vast loom]

im curious even with tuning maybe a bigger burst with sepsis might just be more value

although

1.5min cd

is annoyin

would prob just gold for DM

hold*

[slow marsh]

it'd probs just follow current logic for sepsis

hold unless you lose a cast or something

[vast loom]

yeah but we have so many

amps now

with DM

[slow marsh]

Yeah

That's why the dance builds are so interesting to me

[vast loom]

i doubt DM dupes sepsis tho

[slow marsh]

And why i'm interested to see if they change tea/weak ER

Na DM doesn't dupe sepsis but the dupes would buff sepsis

[vast loom]

yeah

SBS would also buff full duration of DM

sepsis is only 10 sec

would adding a point under sbs/sepsis for the unity effect be too much?

it also wouldnt make sense nvm

no vend lol

[slow marsh]

either way adding unity to cov abilities would mean changing all class's talents to match

[oak sky]

fuck TO

[vast loom]

to?

[hollow river]

toxic onslaught

[vast loom]

ah

ive never palyed with doomblades, do you try to maintain good uptime on it? or does it happen naturally

[oak sky]

we dont need deathspike

[vast loom]

yeah i thought about it

and its fine without iot

[slow marsh]

Doomblade uptime is like 99% naturally

[vast loom]

that makes sense

i was just worreid that maybe in dance windows

if ambush is better we might need to hit mut for doomblade uptime

[slow marsh]

Na, DB lasts 8s anyways and dance is 9 so no biggie either way

[vast loom]

true

does DB pandemic?

like do we want to hold on double mut presses to not overcap the dot

[slow marsh]

Pretty sure it ignited before

[oak sky]

didnt it used to be 4s

[vast loom]

how does ignite work lol

[slow marsh]

just stacks on itself or something along those lines

[vast loom]

i see i see

im just thinking if i need/want to track doomblades im thinking not

[slow marsh]

DB isn't anything to worry about reading further into. It just does a thing and that's about it

[vast loom]

at most maybe just a lethal dose counter

[slow marsh]

I'm sure a LD counter will be a thing, sure

[vast loom]

but even then

is that really needed?

[slow marsh]

Ehhh maybe, idk. Some people track more than others ig

[vast loom]

its neat but will i want to make a decision based on my Lethal dose counter

[slow marsh]

I mean technically no you shouldn't need a LD counter cuz there aren't any dots you wouldn't normally have up

[balmy condor]

no

[slow marsh]

Unless you're taking CT for some reason

[vast loom]

yeah i could see maybe for pvp

cuz of target switching and shit

but idk

[balmy condor]

there isn't a reason to do anything with doomblade, or dose

[vast loom]

but it would be cool to see big % when i press Deathmark 🙂

[slow marsh]

That's why I figure some people will track it lmao

Same reason people tracked frost shard stacks

It's pointless but people like to see big number on screen for some reason

[balmy condor]

people who track EP

[oak sky]

i track ep

[vast loom]

ep gross but alacrity is pog

[oak sky]

i track envenom buff

[vast loom]

my ui tracks envenom

[bleak sky]

how about you track some bitches agreon

huh

[vast loom]

just because it has always lol

[oak sky]

im trackin your logs

[bleak sky]

bro stop looking at them

it's gonna make you play worse

[slow marsh]

link minalba logs

[bleak sky]

minalbasap-whisperwind

grey/blue city

[balmy condor]

fucking why tho

[slow marsh]

Checks out

[oak sky]

ep- ethereal pussy

i actually dont know if i track it or not

dont think so

[slow marsh]

I thought about coming out of retirement for two weeks just to fix my logs but that's too much effort for me at this point

[grizzled jay]

@balmy condor which buffed trinkets are good ty

[oak sky]

i "dont care about logs anymore" (i didnt get to reclear)

[grizzled jay]

Can I use Ocarina again and become Simp Rogue

[slow marsh]

bottled flaywing toxin is bis trinket

[grizzled jay]

N O

[balmy condor]

howling and chains

and uh

that's it

[grizzled jay]

Sadge

[vast loom]

with the way Lethal Dose is worded, nature dmg over time trinkets might give us lethal dose as a bug lol

[viscid spear]

But EoC from Kara is still pog, right?

[ebon notch]

you dont pandemic EP?

[grizzled jay]

Shouldn't be a bug. Pretty sure its intent is to make nature DoT desirable for Sin like Shadow dmg is for Sub.

[balmy condor]

no

[viscid spear]

[balmy condor]

they literally just fixed deeper daggers buffing things like trinkets

[vast loom]

they legit just nerfed deeper to not affect non rogue abilities

[slow marsh]

Good

fuck that conduit

It's like way too late but

good

[balmy condor]

trinkets will not apply to lethal dose

[grizzled jay]

[ebon notch]

it buffs EON right? deeper that is

[grizzled jay]

[vast loom]

not intentionally

🙂

[balmy condor]

no like