assassination

[warm parcel]

ye its a whole rework for the trees

but current tree layouts Im just not a fan of

[faint harness]

I mean you say that the rogue tree "looks small" but the class tree has like 45 nodes which is like 10 more than hunters had/has

[grizzled jay]

alac and lethality being 3 pointers really kills your ability to take any utility

[warm parcel]

yes and this is due to the required filler nodes we have to block out capstone combos

Im aware

[main solar]

I can get on board with that wEak. I like most of the tools and abilities in the trees, just not so much the actual pathing and branches.

[faint harness]

I think the main issue with the class tree is that people are just hyper focused on dance and cheat death being in a bad place

[warm parcel]

Does cut and EP need to be 2 pointers really

No my gripe with class tree with rogue its all thru put

Im not going to ever decide between utility or more self healing

its just gona be what sims best

[night delta]

Class tree needs the things like atrophic poison, damage on cheap shot etc

[warm parcel]

boring

[faint harness]

Like people have already decided that we are playing dance and just going with any route that fits that side/build

[main solar]

Just bake in SnD into assassination again 🙃

[warm parcel]

what if I wanted to pick between cheaper vial or more melee range or whatever

[grizzled jay]

it's not about dance being the play

its about having to take all these dance talents for dance that sucks

[warm parcel]

not ambush giving me 50% more CP cause my assa tree has ambush talents in it

Im obviously going to gravitate towards the middle because of it

Now I cant pick leeching poison

putting utility versus dps

age old story

[grizzled jay]

Imagine wanting to take Subterfuge ever

that's so many points

we don't have enough

[fleet whale]

i'm sad sub probably isn't going to run 2 charges of step

[faint harness]

I mean tight finishers is just a bad node atm (15% energy reduction is kinda weak) and then there's cold blood, after that you got cheat death no? You don't have to take nightstalker

[main solar]

Eh, I think a big problem with dance atm is there's not much other option in the tree. ER is meh for asssassination and thistle tea in its current design isn't great. That's a tuning issue though so kind of just have to see what they do with some of those talents/paths

[warm parcel]

It is a tuning issue

[subtle kiln]

you do

[warm parcel]

And there will always be a numerical best one

[main solar]

We already know there's more changes that didn't make it into this build, so we're working with half info right now

[warm parcel]

Thats why I dont want to have to pick between dps and utility

[grizzled jay]

do other classes have to give up 2-3 utility nodes for throughput? or do they just choose between different types of utility

[warm parcel]

depends on class

[faint harness]

The paladin trees are like ours

[warm parcel]

hunters share our fate

[misty holly]

I agree, there are some cool utility talents, but they will be edged out by dps gain talents every time given the choice. At least for dungeon/raid builds.

[main solar]

Most other classes dont have much throughput at all

[night delta]

Class tree should be 80% utility/situational to 20% straight throughput

[warm parcel]

hunter tree has clear left side for BM

[faint harness]

paladins have to choose wings and shit in their class tree

[grizzled jay]

ah so each class dev is either a memer or not got it

didn't know if they all were told a similar design philosophy

[faint harness]

Also has left side: holy
middle: prot
right side: ret

[misty holly]

It the top 2/3 of the general tree was all utility, and only the bottom portion had dps powers that would be kinda cool.

[grizzled jay]

i know the Evoker class tree is almost all utility

[faint harness]

priest class tree is also forcing any shadow priest down the rright side very heavily

[subtle kiln]

pure dps specs are giving up utility nodes it seems. hybrinds not as much

[warm parcel]

mage is pure dps

and has 2 dps nodes in class tree

[faint harness]

but mage ended up fucking over arcane mages

[warm parcel]

haste and crit nodes

[grizzled jay]

the Shaman tree is crazy

[night delta]

3

Rune

[grizzled jay]

everything links together for Shamans its nuts

[warm parcel]

o right rune was in the mid

[gloomy knoll]

the most based spec never gets any love

[grizzled jay]

look at that design

that's beautiful

[faint harness]

like the mage class tree gives you greater invis, but cold snap + cauterize is kept out of the class tree. It's definitely not without issues

[main solar]

Its easier to follow that philosophy with multi role hybrid classes. Rogues have the problem of all 3 specs being pure damage dealers and also not having THAT much difference in identity.

[faint harness]

Well they differ even less now that everyone is a shadow dancer

[grizzled jay]

best part of Shaman is all their capstones are utility. so they don't even need to take them

[warm parcel]

Im still a nondancebeliever

I dont want no dance in my nonsub specs

[main solar]

so are far as utility goes, there's a ton of overlap and probably hard to fill out a whole class tree with just utility

[grizzled jay]

Shaman class tree is the best one so far hands down

[faint harness]

Ask shamans and they will complain

"grass is greener"

[fleet whale]

I still wouldn't be surprised if dance is axed from the general tree sometime during beta

[grizzled jay]

i mean yeah everyone always complains about their own class

but looking at rogue then shaman, if we have the same layout i would be extremely happy.

[warm parcel]

I mean I dont have any expectation anything will be axed

I just dont vibe with dance

Id like it if it didnt exist

[fleet whale]

pvpers are gonna complain about it

[faint harness]

the sub side can give shadow blades instead and not a single person would go down that route

[fleet anchor]

Maybe better for Outlaw or even Sub but you're right it's probably very poor for Assassination. Finishers are only like 25% of our Energy usage.

[fleet whale]

idk maybe make it finality

[faint harness]

It's just too low energy reduction for 2 points imo

[remote heath]

They should swap that node with seal fate

[subtle kiln]

is it stil the best one if the cap stones are worth half the value of the rogue capstones in throughput?

[faint harness]

Seal fate is iconic for assa, putting that in the "sub side" would feel all kinds of weird

[grizzled jay]

yes, if the Rogue capstones are either just made baseline or removed. do we NEED Tea, Dance, and ER as capstones? almost assuredly not.

[night delta]

https://tenor.com/view/mark-wahlberg-what-no-what-no-gif-13236588

[subtle kiln]

having it be a talent is weird

[fleet anchor]

2 points gets you about 1.4 energy/sec in current terms which is pretty poor on its own

[faint harness]

I mean it is about as weird as shadow dance as a talent is

[subtle kiln]

pvp players gonna disagree

[grizzled jay]

pvp players don't deserve to have a say in design

:)

[fleet whale]

Outlaw side gets ER, which is fine

[warm parcel]

[faint harness]

thistle tea is like 3x as good

[warm parcel]

minigamers

[subtle kiln]

at this point raiders are minigamers

mount farmers ftw

[fleet anchor]

Also scales to be worse at lower gear levels

Since CP gen will be lower too

(Not in relative terms but in raw Energy/sec terms)

[faint harness]

ye tight spenders needs some love

[gloomy knoll]

problem is outlaw because of how restless works doesn't really have a ton of abilities that could go there and be generically good

[night delta]

Tight spenders should refund 1 CP on finisher use

[fleet whale]

tight spenders should remove the energy cost on finishers

[misty holly]

Thistle Tea should have an amp to it beyond just energy. Like you move faster, break snares, increase attack speed for 5 seconds or something. Lean into that energy drink theme.

[main solar]

I can't imagine trying to play assassination without seal fate, especially in aoe scenarios.

[remote heath]

Was more in my line of thought to put the energy nodes together, the 15% finisher energy reduction and thistle tea so you dont have to touch either

[fleet anchor]

I'm kinda meh about Seal Fate rotationally as long as the tuning is right for Mutilate usage. However you are 100% correct about AoE.

[warm parcel]

taking a sip of tea infuses you with a random rogue spec major cd

for x seconds

[fleet anchor]

Assassination with current FoK CP gen will be hilarious in AoE without Seal Fate

[night delta]

I don't even like Thistle tea as a talent

Make it a battle pot

[faint harness]

Well i think the issue with tight spender is actually quite large, because it basically forces you into taking nightstalker to reach cheat death and at that point, why not just go for dance? or are you just taking that 10% dmg amp after a vanish. It's a larger issue than it might seem.

[remote heath]

Thistle tea needs a major overhaul or its never gonna get picked

[fleet anchor]

Without Seal Fate, FoK will probably only be used to spread poisons

No way it's useful otherwise at only 1 CP per cast

[warm parcel]

why not just go back to the good ol days of 0 cp fok

[fleet whale]

sin would also play like ass cheeks without sf

[warm parcel]

it was just a fok :)

[main solar]

Is there a talent near the top of assassination that could probably be swapped with seal fate?

[grizzled jay]

Elaborate Planning

[fleet anchor]

Go back to the good ol' days of FoK spam to interrupt casts 😄

[chilly marsh]

asked about it before realz said he will look what can be done

[warm parcel]

that lasted like 2 hours lol

that was nerfed so quick

[sour wraith]

or they could just make FoK have a baseline SF or add it to an assassin-tree talent

[grizzled jay]

wonder if Realz will do anything to CttC and EP

both being 2pt next to each other and being so strong is kinda... Weird.

[fleet anchor]

Make FoK generate CP for every target it poisons 👌

[main solar]

Actually, swapping Elaborate planning and Seal Fate doesn't seem to bad (adjusting for tuning). You'd basically make EP the counterpart to FW on the sub side of the tree

[faint harness]

i mean just give it the draenor power treatment

and basically become shuriken storm

[sour wraith]

make fok gen cp for each target it hits with a bleed on it

[faint harness]

1 cp per enemy

why not

[grizzled jay]

with the build i like, you can get 1 CttC by giving up Maim, Mangle

[fleet anchor]

Not much reason tbh

FoK is awful atm

Actual garbage button

[warm parcel]

4 poisons with dragon

soo 4 cp foks on st?

[grizzled jay]

yes that's why I offered it as tribute.

[faint harness]

like whats the fear behind making fok give guaranteed cps based on targets? That you spread too many ruptures too fast?

[grizzled jay]

still runs into the issue of SF and CttC being next to each other as 2 pointers

[fleet anchor]

I really liked Poisoned Knives trait though

I wanted that to come back

[warm parcel]

but why

its just flat dmg

[grizzled jay]

we can't be a good aoe spec? who knows lol

[fleet anchor]

Because it's a way to buff FoK that actually interacts with poison talents/buffs/Shiv/etc.

[faint harness]

having 1 cp per 1 enemy is not enough, trust me, i've lived it

[warm parcel]

still just flat dmg in my eyes

[faint harness]

just makes it less awkward

[warm parcel]

nothing amazing imo

[trail otter]

Vigor / Thistle Tea choice node, thoughts

[fleet anchor]

It's a conditional damage increase that requires poisons to be up first, scales with poison application rate, scales with poison damage amps, etc.

[night delta]

I just miss echoing blades, when we had awesome funnel because 1 FoK = 5 CP

[fleet anchor]

Yes it's still just +damage but FoK needs +damage

And it's less dumb/boring that buffing FoK by 400%

[grizzled jay]

no im just saying the only reason FoK is so bad is because they must not want us to be like an AoE pumper for some reason

[fleet anchor]

😛

[warm parcel]

sure

[faint harness]

I mean ur meant to be a multidotter

[spice surge]

Idk i dont think assa should be the funnel spec, leave that to sub

Let assa multidot

[warm parcel]

but it could also be something like "if dps still stacked and PK would detonate 5 stacks" on enemies

[remote heath]

Would not be much of a choice, vigor is infinitely better as it is now

[night delta]

I mean, you can kinda do both

[warm parcel]

so you could actually maybe even interact with it

by targeting x enemy applying stacks and then consuming

you dont really think PK

its just there

and the output is decided by math if its worth it or not

[grizzled jay]

aoe build

[main solar]

Maybe something like FoK causes targets hit to splash damage to targets around it if it's bleed/poisoned or something like that?

[warm parcel]

but then again do we need cool/interactive aoe

[fleet anchor]

"Poison/Bleed EB" wouldn't be awful

[warm parcel]

when surv can press bomb and KC for 2 hours

[fleet anchor]

Pretty large change though

[warm parcel]

and do 200k dps

assa already spinning a lot of plates with bleeds

[grizzled jay]

isn't the change we should have that CT does bonus damage if CT is already on the target?

[remote heath]

Bring back legion poison bomb

[main solar]

It would just make it less boring and shitty and still play into making sure you're bleeding up multiple targets

[grizzled jay]

or give us a true AoE finisher and have CT just modify said finisher to apply a Bleed

[night delta]

You wanna make CT viable on single-target again ?

[velvet ridge]

Why sbs, do you have time in aoe

[oak sky]

Need ep

[grizzled jay]

what 2 pts do you drop

Zoldyck?

[main solar]

you FoK for combo points, starting off kind of weak because nothing is bleed, then spend points on rupturing things, further powering up FoK as you go

[oak sky]

Zoldyck or flying daggers

[faint harness]

Would be fun if deathmark duplicated sbs and it lasts forever

just 2 more cps entire fight

[night delta]

Shadowlands beta flashbacks

[faint harness]

and then you can exsang sbs

that worked out great

[night delta]

Haha, Server go brrrrrrrtttttt-t-t-t-t - CRASH

[main solar]

I don't particularly buy that assassination needs a ton of finishers, or even an AoE one. Let FoK do the actual aoe work and finishers for either funneling or powering up FoK.

We already have a ton of different dots we need to keep up

[night delta]

https://tenor.com/view/more-dots-gif-10004432

[remote heath]

Fok giving cp per target hit and EP is all you need

[main solar]

would also synergize with Indiscriminate Carnage. Instant bleed up everything and full power FoK from the go!

[warm parcel]

not if your envenom hits like a wet noodle

[main solar]

Im going full copium with my idea already lol

[night delta]

Now with poison bomb, about half your envenoms cleave

[main solar]

But its a hill im willing to die on

[fleet anchor]

Every Deathmark duplicates every SBS on the target

👀

[faint harness]

Oh no

[main solar]

end the fight with 8 SBS on one target?

16 maybe?

[fleet anchor]

8? We need some Sylv fight lengths here

[grizzled jay]

first tier end boss is a 25 minute gauntlet

we get 32 SBS on him

[faint harness]

Ramping

[warm parcel]

death by 15 different bleeds

true assassination class fantasy

[night delta]

I mean, for a 2 min cooldown, adding 1 sbs that's not even boosted isn't THAT crazy

[warm parcel]

nothing swifter than bleeding to death over 30 mins

[fleet anchor]

Would have 128 up on Sylv prog kill length 🤣

[night delta]

It's strong

[main solar]

with leathal dose??? My body is ready

[night delta]

But on a typical encounter that's only ramping to 3-4 sbs

[fleet anchor]

So many spikes

[trail otter]

Until Envenom does 60% of our damage : (

[grizzled jay]

at 4 that's a 5 CP SBS every time

[gusty mirage]

oh sweet child

[grizzled jay]

basically a second MfD

[warm parcel]

wrath is on the menu

and so is envenom

lets goo

[gusty mirage]

amplifying poison would need a big buff for that to be remotely true

[night delta]

Oh yeah, failed to consider that

Nvm

Busted

[grizzled jay]

Amp Poison needs a buff in general if DTB is gonna compete with Kingsbane

[gusty mirage]

based on what

[grizzled jay]

my brain

[trail otter]

I'm just saying, there's been lots of times where assassination's main damage is envenom which makes me a sad panda

[gusty mirage]

[trail otter]

I personally enjoy when Rupture and empowered garrotes are our #1 / 2 damage

[night delta]

I like when envenom is 3rd

[trail otter]

I hate envenom it may be a hot take

[gusty mirage]

so far with all the amps to bleeds & poisons, envenom is remaining a filler

[night delta]

And AA very far in the distance

Not like, top 3 :(

[main solar]

It does feel like DTB weighs entirely on how good Amplifying Poison is though to justify needing 2 lethal poisons at once.

[warm parcel]

it can also bring in the small but still existing utility

via double nonlethal

[night delta]

Tbf PVP exists too

[lean coral]

should my flag cds be lining up with venetta on jailer?

[night delta]

And it sounds fun in pvp

[gusty mirage]

ye

[lean coral]

hm

its always like 20-30 secs off

[trail otter]

Having brain fart, DTB?

Oh

[gusty mirage]

double check to see if your unity is bugged, unequip and re-equip it

[main solar]

does PvP on its own justify an capstone talent though?

[trail otter]

multiple poisons

Too many acronyms makes me forget what is what

[grizzled jay]

Dragon-Tempered Blades

[remote heath]

Dragon tempered blades

[warm parcel]

nowhere on the capstone does it read its pvp only

[night delta]

If we had a 4th capstone, sure

[bleak sky]

!wa

[prisma monolith]

Assassination WA's:
https://wago.io/SJLQKGjMM (Afenar's Group)
https://wago.io/ByzCxPq-m (Devlin's Group)

[lean coral]

ill see if its better this pull

[gusty mirage]

yeah unity is fucky, if it was off by like 5-10ish I'd be like alright might be a stack thing or not using enough energy to get the cdr on vendetta but that sounds like a unity bug

[main solar]

even as far as non-lethal poisons go, depending on the fight, what we got doesn't even do anything. Wouldn't need anything other than Atrophic

[night delta]

And DTB also has the appeal of a lower skill floor compared to Kingsbane

[warm parcel]

mindnumb is a thing in pve

[night delta]

More energy gen, less emphasis on burst windows...

[warm parcel]

its utility

and you can just tune dragon so it does damage

no point to look at the numbers

[gusty mirage]

weak any chance you come back to us on retail?

[grizzled jay]

wait that's a thing? is that why i've been fucked with all this time? LMAO

[gusty mirage]

it 110% is a thing lmao

[grizzled jay]

cause its been 20s off and i was confused why the guide says "they should always line up"

[gusty mirage]

so like if your unity is on dif slots for dif specs and you swap, it's a weird thing with the gear set

[grizzled jay]

i just thought Whispyr was using like ptr info or something

mine is still on belt, but i still have that issue. maybe its because i upgraded it same slot? and it fucked up.

i'll have to check

[main solar]

well thats the point though. Dragon on its own now relies entirely on other talents that you're not even required to take to go into. So DTB would need some thinking as far as design or tree placement goes

[gusty mirage]

there used to be a WA that announced when it was bugged but they stealthfixed the way that WA worked so now it's just safer to un-equip and re-equip

[warm parcel]

re-equip and see if it works

[gusty mirage]

(small indie company)

[warm parcel]

no

you can easily tune dragon

improve baseline lethal poisons

give the talent a new row of text saying anything

your lethals are now x% stronger

you lethals can now stack

sky is the limit

[night delta]

Your lethals now always crit

[warm parcel]

ye

[main solar]

I guess I just see that as more of a design thing than just tuning

[warm parcel]

its quite easy to make it numerically better if design baseline is good

it might be more boring than KB

[night delta]

Twice the poisons is very assa rogue

[warm parcel]

you just have 2 poisons and thats bout it

it might be thematic ye :D

[night delta]

I love the idea, so i hope it'll be tuned right

Also this + Deathmark with twice the bleeds is peak power fantasy

Now we only need twice the daggers

[main solar]

and its not like pointing out that kind of feedback is necessarily a bad thing. Its different from saying "only 4%? that sucks. Should be 6%". At the moment, there's nothing tied to it besides just allowing double poisons. Its actually similiar to current complaints on exsang imo.

[warm parcel]

a quick comparison of dragon and BM hunter row 1 talent:
YOu now have 2 pets
BUT
the second pet only uses x spell where as main pet has all
you also have a negative 35% pet dmg modifier so the two pets do a combined 130% dmg
it also has some penalties for beast cleave iirc

[night delta]

And we're set

[warm parcel]

baseline 2 poisons

then designers can add anything they wish on top if it needs tuning and/or flavour

exsang is different tho

its already an existing spell

we know how it works

this is new so there is still a lot more space to do wild stuff

and as koji said they could also just slap a boring modifier on exsang and suddenly its numerically better

exsang is essentially x seconds of extra bleed ticks over the course of y time

[lean coral]

yeah you were right

[gusty mirage]

get out there and fuck the jailer up

[lean coral]

yeh

its a rekill

but people bein apes

we almost killed it even tho we fucked so much shit up

but sadly the worst fuckup happened

[gusty mirage]

one last ape fiesta for you guys too?

[lean coral]

a healer dispelled

yeh getting CE for the people that werent in for kill

[gusty mirage]

lmao our first time seeing p4 I had someone with a bomb standing right on top of me

so I thought I had it

I had the dispel

so I jumped off

and wiped us

[warm parcel]

I need a quick crash course for jailer

First time entering raid tomorrow

[main solar]

dont fall into holes

[lean coral]

unless you're supposed to

[gusty mirage]

I gotchu

[warm parcel]

Fall into holes

[lean coral]

do i get the crit talent from shadowmelding

[main blaze]

Shrouded Suffication and Kingsbane both seem like good additions. I actually forgot about SS, I think my brain just blocked it out when we lost it cause it was so painful to lose.

[vital stump]

saved the rogue tree

[main blaze]

Oh... okay

That might just be undertuned, hope they will fix it.

Sorry guys my opener ambush didnt proc 100 CPs. Better luck next time.

[marble hemlock]

Generate extra cp for every target affected by rupture

[oak sky]

Yes

[marble hemlock]

PB 2point talent

[oak sky]

very weirdge

[hollow river]

nop

have to fully restealth

[lean coral]

hm

so meld useless for dps as sin?

[hollow river]

pretty sure yeah

only good for outlaw because it gives you an ambush=cto procs

[marble hemlock]

meld has always been a bit weird, some things work with it and some dont

but it doesnt work like a vanish, even in regular trash fights in m+ youd have to manually restealth after pressing meld to benefit from stealth effects

[torn atlas]

New trees has Shiv as a 2 charge ability? Or my wowhead bugged?

[oak sky]

yes

[torn atlas]

Some tool tips seem a bit off on mobile so wasn't sure

Ohhh. Interesting 🤔

[gray warren]

i just made some math, kingsbane dmg are not near bleeds dmg with current tunning :/ So if you just press your bleeds with death mark, it will have way more impact than pixel opti Kingsbane

[kindred rapids]

Can't get two vends in P3 / P4 now

How am I supposed to parse

[fleet whale]

Meld worked with SS but it did not proc subter

you can also cast ambush/SS in meld, so yeah it's really weird

and doing math this early is a little silly, things obviously will be tuned

[gray warren]

Maybe it's totally inaccurate, it's handmade ^^
But you can see %power per tick on my open
And Garrot / rupture are way higher than KingsBane

[gray warren]

i know but i like that 🙂

[fleet whale]

also are you considering that kingsbane dot damage goes up with each poison proc

[gray warren]

yup you can see that it's increasing over time

[fleet whale]

Then it's simply undertuned right now

it'll probably get buffed

[gray warren]

We'll see 🙂

[fleet whale]

I remember when ER was just a 20 dps increase in SL alpha

Blizz obviously isn't going to leave a capstone talent on a min CD that deals less damage than garrote untouched lol

[gray warren]

double rupture and double garrot with deathmark makes it hard to compete

no no it's full aug garrot ^^

[fleet whale]

Kingsbane is considered a lethal poison

so in theory it should work with deathmark as well

[gray warren]

yea if that's really the case, that change all

If deathmark x2 kingsbane

[fleet anchor]

I mean that doesn't mean it needs to be buffed specifically

It is just 1 talent after all

[gray warren]

Yup but it's the playstyle around the spell that is good, if it's undertuned, we can't play this build

[fleet anchor]

It will totally depend on how strong Dragon-Tempered Blades and Amplifying Poison are

All that really matters are that the two are aligned somewhat closely

[gray warren]

yup

[marble hemlock]

main issue i see is that itll still be hard to go up against DTB+lethal dose

[fleet anchor]

Although are you counting Kingsbane's initial damage here too?

[gray warren]

no just dot

[marble hemlock]

koji, thoughts on the changes so far? 🙂

[fleet anchor]

It's like ~80% AP initial so it's a non-trivial amount

[gloomy knoll]

yea that's gonna be a no for me dog

[marble hemlock]

its 1 envenom worth of damage

[fleet anchor]

I like the tree updates

[marble hemlock]

the bonk at the start, i mean

[fleet anchor]

There's still a few funny things

[gray warren]

That's true

i should add it later

[fleet anchor]

e.g. I don't know if Amplifying Poison will ever be worth dropping DP for without the capstone

But generally the way the tree looks atm is nice

[marble hemlock]

not without some more envenom boosting talents somehow

with amplifying being kind of the only finisher-boosting talent, i doubt it can compete at all

[gray warren]

if have to say that our opening will be nuts

[marble hemlock]

is it weird that the thing im most excited about is the clearer terminology for what is affected by certain talents?

like, moving away from "poisons" to "nature damage over time effects" is just so good

[oak sky]

yeah love that shit

[marble hemlock]

love the carnage change as well

means you can have more than 8 ruptures up without having a damage decay on it

[hexed frost]

NUTS

[gray warren]

Same for garrot, imagine 8 x 6 sec silence

• dmg.. Our burst will be godlike

[hoary night]

Whooohooo kingbane

Pretty good huh

[jade abyss]

Kingsbane and shrouded comes back?

[white orchid]

And just like that DTB gets overshadowed lol

[steel ridge]

@balmy condor how wet were you when you read kingsbane?

on a scale from 1 to dreadblades is on restless blades

[white orchid]

I wish they would make doom blade do what it does on retail where it also gives damage amp to envenom

[steel ridge]

TTB was a meme in the end, wait its still in there, what was in that place before?

[obtuse robin]

not likely

for now anyway

[sterile jackal]

if i'm reading correctly, Sin will now have 2 charges of shiv?

[steel ridge]

yes

its been discussed to avoid having to hold shiv for soothe

no you can hold one charge for soothing while not losing damage

[sterile jackal]

who holds shiv for soothe, bruh

nothing can stop dps

[steel ridge]

exactly, now its not as awkward anymore.

[white orchid]

Would’ve been dope to get the shiv debuff that spreads like on our tier

[steel ridge]

nah its not that cool

[limber lion]

How are these two inclusive at all? You know you can have both or neither in DF?

[steel ridge]

with how kingsbane works you probably dont want CT in ST anyway, you want more poison procs

idk i kinda like what i see there

[sterile jackal]

mastery Sin incoming

[steel ridge]

mastery is already a very strong stat

not bonkers, but you dont avoid it like the plague 🙂

[brave gyro]

Haven't really had the chance to think about it much, but here is a more ambush/bleed focused take on the tree

[obtuse robin]

it does look like we might be casting snd

[oak sky]

with no sims

[limber lion]

Spice

[oak sky]

sepsis instead of bonespike for burst

[limber lion]

Will be interesting to see the numbers closer to launch and to see how DTB performs in comparison to KB

We obviously don't know what route we'll take with the tuning being TBD, which is a pretty great problem to have

Some spec trees are very clear in how they plsy out, even before tuning lol

[inner urchin]

Woah wait

Since when was Kingsbane added into the new tree

[oak sky]

today officially

[inner urchin]

That's spicy

[oak sky]

we had already known it was very likely to return for a few weeks though

pretty cool to see it in for sure

[inner urchin]

Finally I can relive the days of Legion

My return will be glorious

[brave gyro]

but sepsis doesn't add % to lethal dose, and bonespike does, since its a bleed

[inner urchin]

...Or I can still spec into literally every other DoT for maximum stupid but fun...

Choices, choices...

[brave gyro]

since they said it will only work with weapon poisons afaik

[oak sky]

sure its worse for throughput but sepsis just makes us have a bunch of shit every minute which is my meme idea

[brave gyro]

even more ambush/bleed focus (CT will be dependant on tuning)

[night delta]

CT in single target

[jade abyss]

Shiv for soothing and a new skill idk toxic blade for the dmg 🤔

[trail otter]

ST

[steel ridge]

its been discussed, this was consensus

[trail otter]

Only need one point dashing scoundrel to get the energy bonus

[steel ridge]

just be grateful that for once we get what we want

[trail otter]

need atrophic for raid tho

FeelsBad

[brave gyro]

do u think not refreshing SnD will be better than EP tho? extra dmg is big

[trail otter]

Def a placeholder for me, that is one of the many choices that we just have to wait and see

[jade abyss]

Its like using bl as mm hunter..

[brave gyro]

not necessary, most guilds will have the gear, and unless close to wipe mechanics, probably better to have the extra dmg imo

[limber lion]

I think my only critique with the current talent tree is that you have to spend 3 points to get the raid buff.

[brave gyro]

(for world first guilds is for sure mandatory tho) @trail otter

[limber lion]

I can already see dozens of people skipping the raid buff because it's not as accessible

[trail otter]

3% DR is huge, I think that's a little copium. But EP is probably way better than SND uptime

[limber lion]

You're both puffing.

The raid buff is massive and empowered by Shiv furyher

Ep/CTTC are both great and probably mandatory

[brave gyro]

its 3.6% DR and 7.2% in shiv winows yeah

[limber lion]

CTTC was the single biggest increase in our dps when it was introduced in 9.0.5

[trail otter]

Yeah Atrophic should be mandatory

[limber lion]

And EP is just flat damage.

[trail otter]

Don't think you can fit it all in the build

with atrophic especially

[limber lion]

Looks fine to me

[trail otter]

Dropping PB?

[limber lion]

You think PB is any good?

Lol

Might wanna take a peak at our PB damage these past 2 expansions

Unless they super buff it, it's not great

[steel ridge]

PB with a 50% dropchance?

looks kinda ok to me

[oak sky]

P ISON BOMB

[limber lion]

With Envenom only

Not CT or Rupture

[trail otter]

Most of these things we just have to wait and see with number changes and scaling

[steel ridge]

yeah but you will envenom alot without CT dont you?

its all numbers

[trail otter]

No point in really arguing which one of those points is better

[brave gyro]

I think if we go for Atrophic poison, we'll prob not go go for Dragon-tempered

[limber lion]

PB has always been bad since it was introduced in BFA as a talent

[patent hare]

ngl the trees look so nice if the dev puts cut to the chase as 1 point talent

[steel ridge]

true

[limber lion]

And we only took it because HB and CT were both bad in ST

It was the only choice

[steel ridge]

true

[limber lion]

We don't take it because it's good, we take it because the alternatives are worse

[brave gyro]

its 25% proc chance now tho (only from Envenom)

[patent hare]

is it 25%?

[brave gyro]

5% per cp

[limber lion]

50% with both points

[patent hare]

or is it buggin that its supposed to double

[steel ridge]

its 50%

[limber lion]

It's 25/50

[patent hare]

ngl that looks nice for pvp

[steel ridge]

glad boner is back

gonna be neato for multi target fights

council fights or whatever there may be

[patent hare]

rip 4 poison assa tho imo

the 2 point poison bomb to 3 point energy regen

kinda kills it

[steel ridge]

well you can still go dragontampered if you dont take kingsbane

[patent hare]

atleast to me

[steel ridge]

all depends on tuning or if execute is needed

kingsbane path looks insane for execute ngl

[trail otter]

Yeah, feels like it will always be either kingsbane / DTB tho

[patent hare]

okay but like normal rogue tree

looks bette ri feel like

[trail otter]

which you could argue wouldn't be the best design

[patent hare]

i mean the other talent is aoe bleeds

[limber lion]

Here's a random Guardian log from SoD with PB

PB so good

[steel ridge]

it appears to be intended, a more passive playstyle or kingsbane

[limber lion]

Does less damage than our off-hand Mutilate

[steel ridge]

yeah poison bomb is a turd currently xD

[sterile chasm]

Bring back pls Old poison bomb

[patent hare]

yee i feel like poison bomb is for cleave or pvp tbh

[limber lion]

But yeh, tuning is TBD always.

They might crank up some abilities and nerf others, we honestly can't say what will be good and what won't.

[patent hare]

regular rogue tree looks nice tbh tho

[limber lion]

We have a decent picture, but anything can happen

[limber lion]

Yeah, we're not playing that in PvE.

[patent hare]

i know

lol

[oak sky]

not current thistle tea

[limber lion]

DS is super dog for Assa and so is Tea

[patent hare]

the dev gotta just put cttc as 1 point

[oak sky]

its just mandatory points in pve

it is what it is

[patent hare]

yee but like cttc being 2 points makes it so dog for recuperate

[white orchid]

New version of lethal dose is weaker than its flat out damage increase from its previous version right?

[patent hare]

wait we dont need tricks either in pvp

kek

[limber lion]

Yes.

[patent hare]

elusiveness got nerfed aswell

[white orchid]

That small damage increase from dots seems like it won’t be much of anything comparative to its original flat dam amp.

[limber lion]

More like buffed

[patent hare]

feint used to be 30%

now 20

and evasion wel you evade

[limber lion]

Bro

Evasion is a DR with Elusiveness

[patent hare]

i know

[limber lion]

Dodge or not, you still take 10% less damage

[balmy condor]

So is your mother

[limber lion]

?

[patent hare]

but like you evade anyway lmao

[limber lion]

Evade these nuts

[patent hare]

i did so i didnt need that dr cus i dodged them

[limber lion]

Yes because that's how evasion works

You just dodge everything

Sounds pretty op to me sheesh

[balmy condor]

I dodge jailer tank slams with evasion

[limber lion]

I need to start pressing Evasion more

[patent hare]

in pve you wont have mobs behind you

and in pvp well you just move ur camera

[limber lion]

Environmental damage

AoE

[balmy condor]

Dodge it cev idk

[patent hare]

so be facing hte mobs when they aoe PepeLaugh

[balmy condor]

Just like take 3 steps to the left

What’s the problem

[limber lion]

me dodging Sylvanas Raze with Evasion

Gg stupid banshee

[patent hare]

also the old elusiveness made feint make you take less aoe dmg

[balmy condor]

Huh?

[white orchid]

Doomblade bleed also does like no damage on retail the good part about doomblade was the damage amp to envenom idk why that’s not included in the doom blade in 10.0

[oak sky]

old elusiveness just made it a wall didnt it

[patent hare]

does it not say that on the talent

[fleet anchor]

Was thinking something like this also

[patent hare]

ye

[fleet anchor]

Although part of me wonders if CttC is worth 2 points or not

[balmy condor]

You talking bout like elusiveness from 6 expansions ago or what

[patent hare]

like you took less dmg from aoe and single target

isnt current elusiveness like that

i specifically remember it being like that

[balmy condor]

It doesn’t double dip though

[limber lion]

Yeah who knows, I think you need 2 points to maintain it permanently according to napkin math, but could be wrong

[balmy condor]

Current elusiveness is basically just feint now works on non-aoe

[patent hare]

ive ben living a lie

[limber lion]

The 2 points is still lower than the current version on retail

[fleet anchor]

I guess the real question is that, putting aside the QoL we get, I wonder how competitive it really is from a per-talent-point standpoint to have it at all

[limber lion]

It does feel pretty odd taking almost everything at the top ngl

[fleet anchor]

Could honestly see a world where we drop CttC entirely and just deal with casting SnD a whole 6 times a fight 😛

[oak sky]

a lot of trees have that problem i think cev

[limber lion]

But yeh for sure, will see what happens.

[oak sky]

its just the whole mandatory talents thing

[patent hare]

like firemage

youre forced to take flamestrike

[balmy condor]

@fleet anchor what do I complain about in my feedback post now

I’m struggling

[limber lion]

Raid buff not being in the middle of the tree, so people will ignore it for 2 points in Poison Bomb instead

[oak sky]

i think its less of a problem that you have to take flamestrike than that you have to take improved flamestrike to get other things you want

[limber lion]

For omega damage

[main solar]

Assassination tree, general tree or both?

[balmy condor]

I mean is that a problem? The whole design is to have a choice and pro/con

[fleet anchor]

Exsang sucks. Amplifying Poison may not be worth without Dragon-Tempered. FoK still sucks, especially without Seal Fate, Cheat Death still buried deep.

[balmy condor]

That seems like a give and take

[fleet anchor]

Kinda the only major things I have issues with right now. Largely everything looking very good

[limber lion]

Yeh, true. I'm having a hard time finding anything bad idk

[balmy condor]

Yeah that was sorta the angle I was gonna go as well

[patent hare]

i mean if everything is good is it really a bad thing

[main solar]

The hyper verticality of both trees is kind of my biggest gripe atm

[limber lion]

That's by design and won't change.

So get used to it bucko

:')

[night delta]

Atrophic poison still not on the class tree is also a bummer

Spec-specific utility of this strengh is not great imo, especially on a pure DPS class

[fleet anchor]

Right now looks like CttC value on retail is only worth ~3% DPS

So that makes it 1.5% per talent point which is kinda sub-par a little bit

Competing in that build with like 2 ranks of Scent of Blood or Maim+Blindside

I think CttC actually just doesn't make it in that situation

[limber lion]

Oh? I thought it was way more. I still remember Whispyr saying CTTC was bad when it was introduced in 9.0.5, but it turned out to be really good.

If it's only 3% then yeh, rip cttc

[fleet anchor]

Well it was a little offset by losing the SnD stuff but merged with a bunch of other changes

So hard to really say

[night delta]

I also feel like cttc should be 1 talent point

[limber lion]

True.

[fleet anchor]

But yeah just disabled it on local sims

Mangled the APL a bit

16.7k

vs. 17.2k

[balmy condor]

koji alpha sims when

I have alpha now

[main solar]

I kind of like the idea of swapping the positions of Elaborate Planning with Seal Fate between trees

[night delta]

Seal fate procs on SS procs on outlaw though

Suddenly 4 CP

[marble hemlock]

fellow cttc haters unite

fuck that talent

[sharp falcon]

this is mostly a numbers thing, right? Just... damage

[main solar]

you leave my cttc alone

[limber lion]

Yeh honestly not too bad. I'm thinking it's a Maimside angle then, at least on ST.

[marble hemlock]

imagine the aoe if all of the carnage ruptures would proc a bomb

[limber lion]

Don't think SoB does as much

[marble hemlock]

server would melt from the calculations

[fleet anchor]

Assassination Rogues have a complicated history with Poison Bomb.

[oak sky]

hard refreshing snd again

[marble hemlock]

its not really complicated. it was too powerful in legion (and too RNG), and its kind of a nonfactor in bfa/SL but was the only st-gain talent in that talent tier for a long time

[steel ridge]

yeah ofc its a numbers thing mostly

[oak sky]

can we remove snd instead of keeping cttc

[steel ridge]

SPICE

[marble hemlock]

my main gripe with PB has always been the RNG on when it happens. if it was a specific condition, id like it a lot more i think

[limber lion]

Poison Bomb was super problematic in Legion, then it turned into the only viable choice in the talent tree on single target. We don't really take it because it's good and a fun time, we take it because it's better than CT/HB - except for when CT eventually pulls ahead.

[marble hemlock]

and tuning the numbers would probably also be easier if there was a specific condition and/or cooldown attached to it, instead of being pure RNG

[limber lion]

PB should have never seen daylight after Legion, that's my take.

[fleet anchor]

The dynamic with CT I think has historically been a pain point. The RNG has been really bad at times when it was good. Mostly Rogues don't really like Poison Bomb in general. It's kinda boring and when it's bad you just wanna take CT but take PB for that sweet sweet 1% ST damage. Then ditch as soon as possible. In Legion it was just very problematic though.

[balmy condor]

realz while you're here, is it worth my time complaining about exsanguinate?

[sharp falcon]

yes/no

[marble hemlock]

PB is problematic either way. Either it is a meaningful source of damage, and then the RNG of the proc-rate causes issues on a pull-by-pull basis. Or it's low impact, at which point its not a talent anybody gets excited over. I don't think its possible to find the middleground where neither problems arise.

[sharp falcon]

yes because the feedback is valuable, even if it doesn't result in a direct change. No because if what you want is a direct change, that's unlikely

that said... change my mind? idk

[fleet anchor]

Poison Bomb is also something like looks like AoE and sounds like AoE but realistically is not meaningful AoE. So it's an odd one.

[marble hemlock]

Well it was in Legion

[oak sky]

it sounds real good

[marble hemlock]

It was just tuned down so much that it no longer is

[limber lion]

In Legion it was everything

[sharp falcon]

yeah the sizzle sound is A+

[limber lion]

PB was top damage on single and AoE.

[oak sky]

thats its only real redeeming quality tho lol

[limber lion]

Lol

[fleet anchor]

Legion is was AoE that one time it happened to proc at the right time and the rest of the time it proc'd while you were moving and hit half a target. Or proc'd on the last enemy in the pack. 🤣

[marble hemlock]

I've long suggested to change PB by linking it to either Envenoms cast at 5+ Combo Points, or making it an on-use CD that you could pool around

[balmy condor]

aight fair enough

[sharp falcon]

i can almost feel the acid eating through everything

[marble hemlock]

Hey, don't knock the Legion PB

[oak sky]

like pb does like no damage, things can run out of it, and its super rng

L talent

[marble hemlock]

That procced on your target, even if it was 80y away, if you mouse-over ruptured a target in melee

You could do some funny stuff with that

[sharp falcon]

thats cute

[main solar]

PB in legion was definitely frustrating RNG, but damn was it satisfying when it did proc in a big pack of mobs

[marble hemlock]

Target mob behind a wall, mouseover rupture/envenom in melee, pray for bomb proc to pull through wall

[limber lion]

"WTF TANK STOP MOVING I PROC'E POISON BOMB ARE YOU BLIND??????????"

Good gameplay.

[fleet anchor]

Yeah but was honestly just too inconsistent

[sharp falcon]

I assume you noticed, I took Rupture off its proc

[limber lion]

Yeh

[marble hemlock]

Oh yeah the good ol tank Weakaura that showed all the ground effects like bomb, starfall, moonglaives, ravager etc.

[limber lion]

Consistent Envenom PB gamers

[main solar]

agreed

[fleet anchor]

I mean I have Eonar parses where Poison Bomb was less than 3% of my DPS lol

[sharp falcon]

and it requires more investment, but 5pt envenom = 50% chance, 6pt = 60% if you want to go that far

[marble hemlock]

Yeah, I like that a lot

[limber lion]

I got a r1 on Eonar with 68% pb damage.

:')

[marble hemlock]

I think it's easier to tune to feel more meaningful if its not a very low proc rate

[limber lion]

Proc'd twice on the felhounds at the top

:D

[night delta]

I feel like PB applying a DoT in AoE instead of leaving an AoE patch would both increase usefulness and interactivity

[fleet anchor]

lol

[night delta]

if it is then categorized as a deadly poison for example

[fleet anchor]

Yeah the PB lotto was real

[balmy condor]

ground effect

[sharp falcon]

the position of the talent, and the fact that it costs 2 points, indicates it should be reasonably good. So if the level to which it is satisfying requires 1) more damage, and 2) slightly more consistency (still random, but a coinflip is way different than 20%).... then yeah, it should at least get better

[marble hemlock]

will PB apply a nature damge over time debuff effect that works with lethal dose?

[storm onyx]

Its interesting though; an AoE ability proccing off St finisher while we needs to multi spread ruprures in that scenario.

[sharp falcon]

I'm aware, though it is what it is for now. May make future considerations, but definitely not for 10.0 release

[balmy condor]

does that mean you're stuck with us for at least another patch then?

[main solar]

Hear out my bong take of copium from earlier though. Fan of Knives.... but it does splash damage to targets around anything hit if they have a bleed, poison, or probably both.

[balmy condor]

[marble hemlock]

its interesting because depending on how good it is, it might serve as an interesting alternative to go into a double poison aoe build and giving up carnage for it

one thats more tied to priority damage through envenoms instead of massive multidotting

[night delta]

tell me you want echoing blades back without telling me you want echoing blades back

[oak sky]

yo wait what about flying daggers

[balmy condor]

what about it

[limber lion]

But yeah, there's actually very little in the tree I'm worried about anymore. It looks super good, with tuning tbd

[oak sky]

isnt it like

not good

[balmy condor]

yeh it needs a bigger number

[oak sky]

cool

👍

[balmy condor]

or an added effect that reads "fan of knives generates an additional combo point"

[marble hemlock]

Make FoK generate 1 extra CP for each target it hits thats afflicted by Rupture

[balmy condor]

perhaps

[main solar]

I enjoyed Echoing Blades, but atleast this requires more prep by bleeding things instead of just spaming FoK

[oak sky]

what if it got remade into fan of knives generates 1 cp per rupture target

[balmy condor]

no

[oak sky]

ok

1 extra combo point

[limber lion]

saucy joe L

[oak sky]

😈

[fleet anchor]

Realz--what's your vision for Amplifying Poison without Dragon-Tempered? Would it be intended to outperform Deadly Poison?

[cursive orchid]

And mutilate same with garrote?

[balmy condor]

bruh

[oak sky]

wait

[balmy condor]

single target cp is fine

[oak sky]

seli typed the same thing like right before me

im so blind

[sharp falcon]

'stuck with us' -- who knows what the future holds in terms of features and systems assignments, but to some extent I'll be one of the rogue-related people for at least a while, sure. That started with (9.0.5?) rework of SBS, 9.1 rogue pvp talents, then I moved onto dragonflight talent system design in general and rogue more specifically once we had an overall direction we liked

[storm onyx]

Aha neat

[limber lion]

It's true.

[night delta]

that would be wierd though and it's an issue I have with Amp poison too

[marble hemlock]

i mean, as much as id like consistent cp gen on st, i dont think its a big deal really

[balmy condor]

[sharp falcon]

outperform just... in general? No. But on Patchwerk? Yes

[main solar]

Or the idea that you can take Dragon-Tempered without even taking Amplifying, or any other poison talent really.

[balmy condor]

instant poison is baseline I think

[marble hemlock]

Speaking of SBS, will it receive a full cavity search to find all the bugs that have been hiding in the ability up until now?

[sharp falcon]

you can, there are at least two lethal poisons to apply

[limber lion]

So where's the glaring issues with Dragonflight? We had legendary acquisition in Legion, Azerite traits in BFA, covenants in Shadowlands

What's wrong with DF

[marble hemlock]

So we might swap poisons in M+ again., Amplifying for bosses, then swap to DP for AoE

[cursive orchid]

I mean it was selis idea to get rid of seal fate

[limber lion]

What do we complain about?

[sharp falcon]

technically deadly is an assassin-only override of instant in Shadowlands, but I haven't decided if that will remain the case in Dragonflight. Still thinking about it, but I do think it would be nice to have a DTB AoE poison option (deadly + instant) which could be cool

[marble hemlock]

I don't wanna get rid of sealfate. I wanna get rid of the crit dependancy for resource gen.

[cursive orchid]

Okay that

Same

[sharp falcon]

well, outside of FoK I think that's a world that could already exist

[balmy condor]

we complained about things that we didn't like, and now we complain about those same things to get them back, first time in the wow community?

BRING BACK SOULBINDS AND AZERITE BLIZZARD

[obtuse robin]

[limber lion]

[sharp falcon]

Shrouded Suffocation, Conduits, you have em

i take away? ok

=p

[marble hemlock]

what if amplifying was an IP override instead of DP?

[balmy condor]

gives me something to write about at least

I'm making money

[sharp falcon]

the point at which you select amplifying probably shouldn't come with a downside attached, that's weird to me

[balmy condor]

tyrant developer gives toys to play with; deletes them from planet out of spite

that's a headline

[marble hemlock]

That's ironic, because its mostly the FoK crit dependancy I'm worried about, not the single-target one

[balmy condor]

yeh

[sharp falcon]

wait are we not saying the same thing

i think we're saying the same thing unless i'm confused (to be fair, I'm deliriously tired)

[limber lion]

He's saying that he doesn't like FOK + Seal combo and crit dependancy

[marble hemlock]

Crit has rarely been a super good stat for singletarget, so being essentially forced into very high crit stat allocations on gear to have a smooth AoE gameplay has always hindered out ability to really improve the stats that best affect our AoE damage.

It's alleviated a lot with the new tree though, as you can get 15% FoK crit just from the tree. 18% if we count lethality.

[night delta]

9.1 nonwithstanding :p

[balmy condor]

that's sorta my thing as well, the class tree is a little awkward at some points because seal fate is so deep in the tree and required for any combo point generation in aoe that you're already just locked into like 22 points getting to it

[limber lion]

Pressing FoK 4 times in a row with Seal Fate is pretty

[night delta]

(I know you said rarely, not never)

[marble hemlock]

Entropy based Fok Crit?

[balmy condor]

pressing fok 3 times in a row unlocks anticipation

[marble hemlock]

Nah more like the entropy system for evasion in PoE, if you know what I mean whispyr

[sharp falcon]

Yeah, if I understand you correctly: you said you thought it'd be cool if a world existed where SF is not a necessary component of Assassination's resource gen. And I said, we're very close to that world, except for FoK, FoK kind of needs SF at least how things are structured right now. So the speculative 'problem' is FoK + SF... are we not aligned here?

[balmy condor]

yeh

[balmy condor]

yep

[marble hemlock]

Yep

[limber lion]

Pretty spot on

[remote heath]

fok just needs the shuriken storm treatment

[marble hemlock]

No it doesnt

Please stop

[balmy condor]

no

[marble hemlock]

Thats the most boring "solution" 😄

[remote heath]

but its a solution nonetheless

[sharp falcon]

explain

[limber lion]

Seal + FoK is a similar thing to Master Assassin where if you don't crit with your generator, it feels like you haven't spec'd into the talent at all.

[marble hemlock]

Well the suggestion that comes up a lot is for FoK to also generate 1 extra CP per target hit, like Shuriken Storm

[limber lion]

Do I have MA selected if I just mutilated twice for 2cp?

[sharp falcon]

oh i see

[limber lion]

Shuriken Storm cringe

Pls no

[marble hemlock]

So any AoE situation would always give you 5CP per FoK, guaranteed, unconditionally.

[remote heath]

could alter it to where it gives a cp point for every mob hit that has a bleed applied

[balmy condor]

I personally like the crit component from seal fate being a core mechanic, but I think that seal fate should maybe switch spots with elaborate planning or something, or hide it behind flying daggers to devalue it in single target. Make fok 2cp baseline to make sure you never get into the "I fok'd 3 times and still can't finish" situation, and we're in business imo

[sharp falcon]

it's a hamfisted solution to borrow a sub mechanic, I'd rather a novel approach more suited to assassin in particular, but I understand the point about it as a 'solution' at least, ty

[marble hemlock]

Some alternative suggestions have been things like granting extra CP when certain conditions are met, i.e. a target has both Rupture and Garrote up, it grants 1 extra Combo Point.

Another "option" would be to have it be entropy based, so when you hit a target with 40% crit and it doesn't crit, a second target will have a higher crit chance until you crit, and then it resets.

All of these are basically "solutions" to the problem of hitting FoK in a pack of 10 mobs, and only generating 1 or 2 Combo Points because you got unlucky.

[limber lion]

A bad solution, that is.

[remote heath]

but considering the argument is that it feels bad to be forced into spamming it if rng is bad when another spec of the class has something that does not have that problem, i can see why its a lame solution cause it would be exactly the same, would have to find some kind of middle ground or spec fantasy related solution

[sharp falcon]

Yeah, I don't favor it at first blush. Sometimes a 'bad' solution is still the best solution, though. (I'm getting all game design philosophical, sorry...) Utopia rarely exists

[balmy condor]

generate finish generate finish generate finish on sub is the most boring aoe gameplay imaginable

it's not even a good solution for su

b

[limber lion]

With these talent trees, we're getting pretty close though :p

[marble hemlock]

I think with the amount of extra crit on the tree, the Sealfate/FoK issue is not nearly as big of a deal as it is right now.

[remote heath]

i mean isnt that the same for assa, you generate generate generate genrate and you do a finisher

[sharp falcon]

I'm not convinced that's true, yet

[remote heath]

in the end its the same

[main solar]

I guess a question is, what is the design intent behind assassination's AoE?

[balmy condor]

the difference is you actually have to react to something happening

[limber lion]

Plenty of things from the past that people have been yearning for for years, and immense amounts of synergy across the two trees.

[cursive orchid]

personally it is that you press 2 buttons, i liked bfa sub generate dot generate evis ...

[marble hemlock]

Well with the new talent tree theres 2 paths right now. The bleed multidot, or the consistent PB procs.

[limber lion]

Building up a lot of hype for many people and I can see a lot of people returning to the game because of the talent trees being so well put together.

[fleet anchor]

I mean right now FoK is actually really bad, even after the hotfix buff. It's only worth using at like 4T+ unless we need it to try to AoE apply Deadly Poison on something then it's borderline at 3T+. When you're talking about FoK vs. Mutilate and Mutilate being able to generate like 4x the CP as FoK even in AoE sometimes based on luck it's a little silly. 😛

[night delta]

I don't feel like Sin being theoretically fine without SF in single-target warrants putting it hidden behind an AoE talent, that could look spiteful to players who just like the stuff in single-target

off the main path is enough

[fleet anchor]

Mutilate value also going up in a lot of the 10.0 talent builds due to talent support

(And potentially Ambush also)

[sharp falcon]

Fun question, far too tired to tackle that now, and I don't want to boil it down to a soundbyte that will get quoted out of context for the next 10 years.

[marble hemlock]

Assa AoE really only has 2 major issues (3 if we count the current tuning of bleed DPS as part of your overall DPS being way too low):

1. It is too reliant on stacking crit on gear to get meaningful CP gen through FoK. Most of that is "fixed" by having a lot of builder-crit on the tree, allowing for more stat-freedom on gear.

2. It has no way of dumping energy, so when you have more bleeds running than you can count, you are overcapping energy with no way to use it

[balmy condor]

locking it behind an aoe talent still gives you the option to take it, but having to take a "bad" single target talent isn't really bad in my opinion, it shows the intent of the talent, and if you want to take it in single target then go for it

[sharp falcon]

Sorry for the non-answer, but let's chew on more bite-size problems for now, as much as I appreciate the broad question I don't think this is the best forum for it =x

[fleet anchor]

Many say 3T AoE situations don't even end up casting FoK much at all optimally because CT can apply poisons AoE also so you don't always need FoK to do that. In that case you just Mutilate even on 3T.

[marble hemlock]

You would think that Assa is really strong in 2t and 3t situations, but it's historically the fight type where we deal the lowest comparative DPS to other specs and classes.

[night delta]

thing is SF, as it stands, does not speak "Intended for AoE"

[marble hemlock]

The only reason we were solid for 2t/3t fights, was Shrouded Suffocation in BfA

[fleet anchor]

I'd extend point 2 somewhat honestly

I would say Assassination is not amazing at converting excess resources in general (both Energy and CP) into damage

[main solar]

I still like my Echoing Blades + Venomous Wounds type of FoK idea though. Starts off slow without targets being bleed, then ramps up as you bleed more and more targets. Synergizes really well with Indiscriminate Carnage too for the instant ramp of FoK splash damage

[marble hemlock]

That's only true for PvE

[fleet anchor]

The nature of DoTs being so high DPET

Kinda force this by design

[balmy condor]

I mean it kinda does though, the effect makes way more sense on fok in aoe than it does in single target with mutilate and blindside proccing. Single target sin has always been energy locked, not cp locked

[marble hemlock]

In PvP, Rupture deals a shitton of damage and being able to apply it to multiple targets creates a lot of pressure. Rupture is typically in the 20-40% of your damage done in a scenario like that (at least it used to be in Legion and BfA, barely touched SL PvP). So the multidot prowess definitely exists, it just doesn't exist in PvE.

[cursive orchid]

EB is just plain extra damage so ramping is achieved in current treee with scent of blood

[night delta]

It's more in a sense of just reading out the tooltip. And also it makes the interaction with mutilate instantly obvious to anyone's reading it

[marble hemlock]

scent of blood is a straightup better echoing blades. not tuning wise, maybe, but it serves the exact same purpose, and does so much more elegantly without putting more emphasis on builders

[fleet anchor]

Sure but I'm talking against a single target--not specifically just 1T, but against one specific target

[night delta]

it maybe is way better in AoE than in Single target, but its description doesn't really convey that

[fleet anchor]

You always will have diminishing returns on Envenom vs. Rupture damage

[marble hemlock]

Oh for sure. If we get a surge of resources, we don't really have anything to use it on.

[fleet anchor]

That's all I mean really

[marble hemlock]

The only times Envenom was a meaningful finisher was due to Agonizing Poison in Legion and funnel scenarios with 3xTTK traits in BfA like Orgozoa.

[fleet anchor]

Amplifying is maybe where that starts to get a little interesting potentially

[limber lion]

But instead of trying to make our filler ability, Envenom, exciting, we should just have a new button to press to dump energy on.

[fleet anchor]

But Amplifying only does that in some situations

Other situations actually reinforces the problem

[night delta]

I mean, both are fine imo

[fleet anchor]

You'll be time-limited on your big Envenoms, getting more CP won't help you

[marble hemlock]

Absolutely. Sadly it lacks the synergies with other finisher-enhancing talents, as we don't really have any. But the fact that PB is now a much higher chance to proc on Envenom cast only, might help that issue already.

[night delta]

making an ability we use a lot more exciting isn't an L imo

[marble hemlock]

I think its very hard to fix the issue of Assa being able to generate much more resources in specific situations, as we typically double-dip on haste with our natural regen being increased as well as our energy generation from other sources like VW or Dashing

[limber lion]

No, but it can easily spiral out of control where a boring filler ability becomes part of your main rotation and one of your main damage dealers, which is cringe

All the feral players HATE Sabertooth because it enforces Ferocious Bite gameplay

[marble hemlock]

Multistrike for Assa finishers if you're above 80energy

[fleet anchor]

A pox on Sabertooth tbh

[limber lion]

Feral is not a DoT spec anymore, it's a bite spec. And I don't want Assa to turn into an Envenom spec

[fleet anchor]

Sabertooth was considered the meme noob tier option when it first came in a competitive tier

Then got moved to Tier 1 competing against nothing good for reasons

[limber lion]

[fleet anchor]

And took over

[slow forge]

The same reason why half the feral player base hates current iteration feral

[fleet anchor]

Sad times

[marble hemlock]

Time limited due to not wanting to overlap Envenom buffs before Pandemic, or because you can only cast so many in any given time due to needing to generate the CP for it?

[limber lion]

Exactly

[slow forge]

Very stale and it makes it so any buff envenom talents would be 100% pick rate

[sharp falcon]

I assume he means because it takes time to apply enough poison stacks to have enough for a buffed Envenom

[slow forge]

Shoutout to sabertooth

[marble hemlock]

Oh, that as well, true.

[night delta]

Is it really cringe if the ability does exciting stuff though ?

[limber lion]

4t rotation on Feral is legit swipe - primal wrath, swipe - primal wrath

Poggets

Anyways enough about feral

[fleet anchor]

I just mean basically you'll be slowed by your Agonizing Poison proc rate essentially. Having infinite CP won't scale your Envenom damage linearly.

[slow forge]

Woah woah don’t forget to proc blood talons

You need a thrash and a rake every so often

[marble hemlock]

I actually had one very odd solution to the "overcapping in AoE" issue, and I don't think people are gonna like it

[limber lion]

Puke

[slow forge]

Lol

[fleet anchor]

Yeah as a Feral main for a long time before swapping to Rogue in Legion, I can't really say I love many aspects about the direction Feral has gone recently lol

[slow forge]

How’s sin looking in s4 I’m rerolling from feral lol

[limber lion]

Really good, tier set is tough to play at first but you'll get used to it

[marble hemlock]

What if Rupture/Garrote compounded, so recasting it on the same target would increase its damage similar to ignite/doomblade etc. That way you could prio-damage specific targets with multiple ruptures, at the cost of energy regen (which you can typically sustain with just a handful of bleeds anyway)

[slow forge]

Literally only playing feral for sludgefist it’s rogue every other boss

[marble hemlock]

Downside is that it'd make Envenom completely useless (or almost useless) on singletarget, since Rupture has a much higher DPE

[limber lion]

I think something like that would make the spec wayyyy to skill capped.

[fleet anchor]

Still salty about Sabertooth dominating the gameplay. Also really don't get why folks ended up running the old Bloodtalons design out of town. lol

[marble hemlock]

Yes

[slow forge]

Casuals

They hated healing to get your best passive in the game

Old BT was bis

[limber lion]

I like the Necro Feral m+ build

Too bad it's bad.

Gg's

[marble hemlock]

But imagine in a 5mob pull, you can choose between spreading ruptures or stacking them on a specific target for more prio dam. The overall DPS would remain the same :>

[slow forge]

Venthyr feral is comedically bad but so fun to ramp

[fleet anchor]

Yeah it must have been really hard for them to be nearly invincible in raids from passive damage sources

Super bad times

[marble hemlock]

I just like the idea of having a few minor bleeds and one really big and nasty one

[slow forge]

I hate new bt it’s too much pooling just for 2 stacks of bite buff

[slow forge]

Like spriest?

[fleet anchor]

Old BT was so great, did so much support or self healing in raids

[main solar]

I disagree with not making envenom more impactful. Priority should still be to keep rupture and everything else up, but definitely think there should be more stuff like Amplifying Poison that buff it to actually feel impactful.

[slow forge]

If you haven’t should look into feral logs and builds that’s exactly how we ended up

Moving away from bleeds into bites

[marble hemlock]

I dont know too much about SP. But basically just smth like "consume your bleeds on all targets and compound them into one big one on your prio-target".

Basically my AoE assa dream is a constant ramp-and-consume gameplay where once you reach energy saturation and high amounts of bleeds, you don't just maintain them until the pack is dead, but have the opportunity to consume them and restart the ramp process, and gain some sort of benefit from doing so.

[limber lion]

Wtf I just noticed that Feral might want to weapon swap Gavel

[slow forge]

Yeah

[limber lion]

That's gonna be cringe holy moly

[slow forge]

It’s bis

[limber lion]

Fuck me man

[main solar]

Feral isn't a rogue and that's the main problem. Feral ended up turning into an assassination clone

[slow forge]

Gavel is bis and if you get it have fun 🙂

[limber lion]

I can't get a single weapon, let alone a Gavel which doesn't even drop lmao

[slow forge]

Except rogue has more snapshots than feral rn

[fleet anchor]

I mean regarding the Envenom thing, honestly I always felt the "Envenom damage increased by 5% for each Bleed you have on the target." part of Doomblade was the far more compelling part of that legendary than the "Mutilate deals an additional 45% Bleed damage over 8 sec." part

[main solar]

complain about it in the druid department then?

[marble hemlock]

Same

[main solar]

double same

[slow forge]

I like the idea but coming from the shoes of a new rogue it would seem very overwhelming and that play style seems very punishing

[limber lion]

I don't think that's true

[marble hemlock]

Well, theres 2 other specs with much simpler AoE rotations/gameplay

Assa has always had one of the highest skillcaps in AoE anyway

Out of any class, not just within the 3 rogue specs

[limber lion]

True

[slow forge]

Garrotte rupture CT feral has rake and rip

[limber lion]

Only gigachads play assa m+

[limber lion]

You're thinking about it the wrong way. We only have Vendetta that we use to snapshot

Feral uses TF and Berserk to snapshot rake and rip

[marble hemlock]

Target selection, awareness of your debuff durations and being able to predict the next few GCDs to maintain dots or prioritize damage into one target at any given moment is what's always drawn me to the spec. Every GCD you choose where to put your damage. It's not just ss>evis or ss>bp.

[slow forge]

Oh I guess that’s fair

[limber lion]

But yeah tier set shenanigans

[slow forge]

I think a lot of ferals want sins dmg breakdown from sod

I personally liked it aswell

But 50% of dmg coming from bite I’d truly hate to see sim turn into that with envenom

[limber lion]

With Winds of Winter doing 30% of our damage?

:p

[slow forge]

-winds

[limber lion]

Envenom was the second highest

[slow forge]

Outside of that it was very ideal

[limber lion]

Current breakdown is very ideal

[slow forge]

I like this bleed build is that looking competitive for season 4?

[limber lion]

Here's my Skolex

Bleed, bleed, melee, bleed, poison, poison, envenom

Perfect

:Loved:

[slow forge]

It’s really good

[limber lion]

[subtle tundra]

now, if only we had aoe dmg

[slow forge]

I’m excited to play it ngl and with df raid buffs

[balmy condor]

nothing is changing in season 4, so it will play identically

[slow forge]

Huge

Do you guys have a s4 gear set sim?

[limber lion]

Some, but nothing crazy

[balmy condor]

eye of command is really good and you want eon from dinar

and that's about the extent of it currently

[limber lion]

Mechagon rings