assassination

[fleet whale]

has potential to be busted

[night delta]

that would be oof

though kingsbane during deathmark looks like it'll pack a punch

also very similar durations, CD on sync, massive

[fleet whale]

trying to make a poison heavy sin build, with not much focus on bleeds

[tiny valley]

don't have the points to get KB with 2 poisons

[fleet whale]

idk how it would work though lol in practice

[warm parcel]

thats the point

its by design

[fleet whale]

it would be mega broken

[somber hill]

i missed kb

[fleet whale]

or they would have to make KB weak sauce

if they let us take both

[warm parcel]

a syngergy like that requiring you to spend exactly all points would be silly design wise

you either make it too good and thus "mandatory"

or you just have to nerf the talents

making them weak without the synergy

so instead locking them out you can have both be viable

is how I see it

[oak sky]

Other classes have weaker capstones but they can get multiple its just a different design

[gusty kestrel]

I think its time to drop poison bomb

[night delta]

I have no issue with 1 capstone limit

if balanced correctly, it permits meaningful choice

[sudden hound]

do we get 2 charges of shiv confirmed? or is it bait

[dense herald]

Anyone else not keen on the idea of having multiple cov abilities

[toxic locust]

confirmed

[night delta]

oh wow I didn't even see the swap between CB and MfD

[upbeat tinsel]

only one charge works right now but shadow dance is the same way, just an issue with multi-charge talents across the board I think realz said

[night delta]

it fits

[bleak sky]

carnage nerfed

[fleet whale]

Well, from looking at the three capstones, it's pretty easy to see a theme
KB for ST, Carnage for AoE/cleave, DTB for both/sustained?

[dense herald]

Is realz scarizard?

[toxic locust]

nope

[bleak sky]

no

[balmy condor]

no he's realz

[bleak sky]

realz is realz

[toxic locust]

realz is a real one

[bleak sky]

scarizard is scarizard

[dense herald]

Well they are both amazing devs then

Insane

[bleak sky]

i apologize abt the amt i talk about Season 4, but I can't and won't be silenced.

[night delta]

DTB is definitely sustained damage and not much AoE

it's under heavy buffs to envenom, which you don't use like, at all in AoE

DTB is, I would wager, the "lower skill-floor" option

more energy, less focus on burst windows

[frosty bridge]

Love the changes, thanks Realz

[meager granite]

Realz is the man to be honest every major conversation we had seem to have been taken into consideration.

But we can still see the tea !

[spice surge]

The only thing that feels odd about the talent tree now is the "Poisoned Katar" fan of knives talent being locked behind two points of Cut to the chase

[night delta]

I mean, if I get a charge every 0.06 sec I'm definitely talenting into tea

[meager granite]

Sweet dreams are made of these

[true pelican]

what is deadened nerves? I see it in the wowhead article as a 3% phys dr on garrote

[chilly marsh]

i think the only poblem for sin is the seal fate and fok. you just cant do aoe without this

[true pelican]

but it doesn't appear on tree

and it also seems op

[toxic locust]

class tree, replaced improved garrote

[oak sky]

Cttc is mandatory anyways idc

[spice surge]

For aoe? Not really, as its only envenom

[true pelican]

so sin has a 3% phys dr now as well?

[toxic locust]

all specs do yea

[obtuse robin]

oh wow they moved fok to

[toxic locust]

fok and shuriken storm are baseline

yea

[obtuse robin]

oh shit

nice

dam some nice changes

[white orchid]

zoldyk is such a meh 3 point option just sitting there blocking that beautiful KB

[night delta]

I donb't like Zoldyk at all tbf

[meager granite]

On wowhead SS increases garote damage by another 15% combined with improved garrote, that seems to be very high

[night delta]

completely passive, works barely 30% of a fight

[toxic locust]

people hating on execute wtf

[night delta]

boring as heck, even when numerically strong

[remote heath]

yes thats usually the point of an execute themed ability/passive

to be used only in the execute range

[fleet whale]

i mean it makes sense where it is on the tree though

being right behind KB

[balmy condor]

that's when you know the sin tree is really good

people start to come up with invisible demons to fight

[obtuse robin]

^^

[oak sky]

I aint hating im pro-zoldyck (zoldyck fan)

[grizzled jay]

this new talent tree is lit af

[night delta]

I'm not saying it's a bad talent or anything, I just don't like execute mechanics, because Execute is the shortest part of the fight

[white orchid]

If you wanna get SBS for m+ you have to go through doomblade which is low value in m+ lol

[oak sky]

My only gripe rn is that imp garrote and MA being on top of each other might be slightly weird but like its fine tho

[true heath]

Are they resetting flux next week

[spice surge]

Its also almost always the hardest part, ie the one you really want the damage in

[frosty bridge]

Well

Also the most exciting part of the fight usually

[night delta]

yes but again, that execute mechanic has zero interactivity

it's basically just "you deal more damage now, go do your usual stuff"

[remote heath]

[frosty bridge]

I don't know, personally, I like climbing DPS meters as the boss gets into execute range

[grizzled jay]

https://puu.sh/Jd9vM/6a8b99dcc0.png

[balmy condor]

so I guess we complain about bugs now right

[frosty bridge]

YOOOO

lets go

[grizzled jay]

let me check if i got in

[frosty bridge]

both Guy and Whispyr got it

i hope fuu got it too

[night delta]

NICE

[chilly marsh]

i want my alpha too @_@

[gusty kestrel]

no EP

...

[oak sky]

Kill maim

Go ep

[echo geyser]

wowhead came in clutch?

[balmy condor]

correct

[night delta]

looks like a nice build

[gusty kestrel]

drop CTTC

[echo geyser]

[strange python]

Guys wtf

[night delta]

just hope we'll have enough energy budget monotarget

[strange python]

I open tree

I see tiny toxic blade blocking my path to kingsbane

[grizzled jay]

new Lethal Dose is very thematic

I like it a lot

now the question is

[gusty kestrel]

close eyes and click it and the path is open

[night delta]

yeah the way they worked out a nerf is genius

[grizzled jay]

@balmy condor check if Lethal Does increases Kingsbane

[gusty kestrel]

it does

[bleak sky]

do you have the old wording?

I legit don't recall it

[grizzled jay]

old wording was just a flat damage increase to everything

[night delta]

by wording it should

[bleak sky]

oh oka

[oak sky]

Ttb is literally fine as a non capstone

[grizzled jay]

now its just poisons, bleeds, and nature dot

[oak sky]

Everything makes more sense now pmuch

[grizzled jay]

(which means it excludes envenom)

[gusty kestrel]

yes and kingsbane is a nature over time

[grizzled jay]

still something worth testing

[reef mulch]

So are we getting 2 stacks of Shiv or are they changing that later?

[grizzled jay]

TTB now viable hell yeah

[subtle kiln]

it'll prob get flagged 14diffrent times before the game launches

[night delta]

2 stacks of shiv means Deathmark fully under shiv buff

[grizzled jay]

and Kingsbane

[night delta]

means 1/2 Kingsbanes fully under shiv and deathmark

that's nasty burst

[grizzled jay]

that's so fucking good lmao

honestly the build i just slapped together looks really good.

TTK with Kingsbane is really good synergy

Potential to move that Maim, Mangle point to one EP. Unsure.

[night delta]

??????

[gusty kestrel]

and?

[grizzled jay]

yes it dupes Kingsbane

[night delta]

Holy shit I didn't even consider that until now

[jaunty crystal]

seeing shrouded makes me so happy wtf

[grizzled jay]

we should also test if it dupes SBS and if it does, does duped SBS last forever

[night delta]

So duped shiv'd kingsbane

[night delta]

certainly not

[balmy condor]

probably doesn't right now, and no

[grizzled jay]

ye i figured not right now

just a thought

[gusty kestrel]

why would it dupe sbs

[frosty bridge]

there was that exsang bug that made SBS double tick forever

[balmy condor]

sbs is a bleed

[grizzled jay]

i still like SBS for another LD stack

[frosty bridge]

unlikely that happens

[night delta]

yeah wording doesn't permit duping sbs anyway

[balmy condor]

that's kinda the end of the logic

[gusty kestrel]

well deathmark doesnt say duplicate bleeds tho

[balmy condor]

yeh

[grizzled jay]

oh you right it just specifies the 2 bleeds

[balmy condor]

that's why it's the end of the logic

[grizzled jay]

my b

[gusty kestrel]

discriminating CT once again..

[strange python]

Now that the dust has settled are we playing exsang with sbs

[grizzled jay]

true

[gusty kestrel]

no

leave

[grizzled jay]

exsang is dead forever

should just be deleted

[strange python]

It has to work somehow

[balmy condor]

the fk does exsang and sbs have to do with each other

[gusty kestrel]

hey hey hey dont delete it

there is still room for exsang in my build

[night delta]

exsang accelerated sbs at some point during beta

[balmy condor]

yes it also crashed the servers

[dense herald]

So vanish shrouded suffo into kingsbane into death mark into exang a thing for burst?

[balmy condor]

I think they learned their lesson from exsang'd sbs

[drifting cloud]

batchest sl beta

[balmy condor]

after having to restart ptr servers

[white orchid]

why does Poison bomb have 2 points?

[balmy condor]

to prevent dragon tempered and kingsbane

[gusty kestrel]

cause poison bomb is 2 words

[white orchid]

but what does the second point increase lol

[balmy condor]

the proc rate

[lilac haven]

Chance, so 50% with 5 combo points

[night delta]

man, I have one issue with what looks like a fun Kingsbane build at launch. It's that outside of Deathmark, the lack of energy (low haste, no dashing) will be not fun

or we have to heavily be pigeonholed into taking 1 point of dashing

[gusty kestrel]

venom rush, VW buffed, alacrity is a potential pickup?

I dont see ur issue

[night delta]

which is almost worse

[gusty kestrel]

blindside procs

theres plenty of energy helping talents

[balmy condor]

sin is not 90 apm tisu please stop being positive

[upbeat tinsel]

I don't think deathmark currently duplicates kingsbane if that's what people were asking

[gusty kestrel]

OK WERE DOOMED

IT IS OVER

[balmy condor]

I will not rest until sin is gcd locked at -20% haste

[gusty kestrel]

energy starved 99% of the fight

[hollow river]

dashing regen is hardly worth considering tbh

[drifting cloud]

@balmy condor is 15% haste ok for dragonflight

[warm parcel]

I mean the fact that players assume assa needs 500 apm and 9k energy a second is heresy anyway

[pseudo forum]

Tree looks amazing but is anyone else nervous they’ll be forced to play outlaw by their raid anyway if restless blades stays in?

[warm parcel]

ROgue is resource limited class

not gcd locked

[gusty kestrel]

or is it...

[pseudo forum]

Restless crew*

[grizzled jay]

because Shiv costs no energy and TTK means you aren't requires to hyper spam Envs to keep uptime, you actually have okay energy during KB windows which means you don't come out with no energy.

[balmy condor]

you see, that's where you're wrong bucko, gcd is a resource, it's time

[obtuse robin]

the sin one will be beter in general

[night delta]

I mean, bleed haste-crazy sin in 8.3 was practically GCD locked

[drifting cloud]

you can spend some time on dn

[warm parcel]

okay mr fury warrior

[night delta]

and that was the most fun I had with the spec coincidentally

[warm parcel]

and I think thats the most heretical rogue has been

CT on st is quite heretical too

[grizzled jay]

@night delta also we can just take Thistle Tea

[gusty kestrel]

hey alacrity in antorus was also very close to gcd locked

[balmy condor]

I am not nervous because it won't stay

[frosty bridge]

Strategic 9.1.5 Assa was the best rogue version

[gusty kestrel]

@warm parcel do u remember

[night delta]

definitely

[warm parcel]

alac enjoyers

wp alac

[gusty kestrel]

they all hated on us

[grizzled jay]

https://puu.sh/Jd9CV/79e3606815.png

[gusty kestrel]

u dont want dance for every kingsbane?

[balmy condor]

not taking dance

[gusty kestrel]

[balmy condor]

[placid adder]

most likely be changed

[balmy condor]

actually trolling the class tree

[night delta]

my god, sin with increased melee range

[grizzled jay]

yeah unsure.

[gusty kestrel]

also not taking 10% on mutilate/ambush

[night delta]

who was talking about heresy

[grizzled jay]

i know with SS dance becomes pretty giga, still thinking.

[night delta]

DAGGERS ARE NOT 5 YARDS LONG

[warm parcel]

Ill uninstall the moment assa has to play dance

[pseudo forum]

Ha, probably right. They should get rid of it and make atrophic class instead of spec

[grizzled jay]

Alacrity is too giga

[gusty kestrel]

it really isnt

[balmy condor]

much better but I agree alac

[gusty kestrel]

well what would u remove for alac

[night delta]

Dance will probably be go-to in AoE

[gusty kestrel]

sealed fate is op

[remote heath]

vigor

[balmy condor]

vigor + 1 point lethality

[gusty kestrel]

vigor 1 point is equal to alacrity itself

[drifting cloud]

you have it installed right now?

[balmy condor]

or tight spendr

[warm parcel]

the game?

[balmy condor]

haste is not energy regen

[gusty kestrel]

I know it works different

[drifting cloud]

classic doesnt count weak

[warm parcel]

my rogue has 4 pc my man

Im getting CE tomorrow

[night delta]

haste definitely stronger than energy regen, especially on the Kingsbane build

[drifting cloud]

fins raiding?

[night delta]

haste is like squared influence on kingsbane damage

[gusty kestrel]

ok

[winter hill]

no but haste is dot tic rate and with other talents that's energy regen no?

[obtuse robin]

ld still 2% dont tell realz

[warm parcel]

not momento but still familiar finns ye

[balmy condor]

it got reworked

[obtuse robin]

theres a cap now i assume

[balmy condor]

yeah that's not the point

[remote heath]

would you swap out tight spender for virulent poisons

[balmy condor]

no it just specifically works on bleeds/poisons instead

[obtuse robin]

oooohhhh

[balmy condor]

instead of buffing everything

[obtuse robin]

any1 do any napkin math on that yet

[drifting cloud]

dont talk about math here

[remote heath]

virulent seems pretty good for m+

[obtuse robin]

[drifting cloud]

we just feelycraft

[balmy condor]

napkin math is pointless atm

[winter hill]

makes sense tho. lethal dose was way too insane

[balmy condor]

you do napkin math you wake up next week and the numbers are different

[grizzled jay]

yeah LD was never living

[balmy condor]

too many interactions and different combinations

[grizzled jay]

when we could get to like 18% lmao

of just flat +damage

[fleet anchor]

My says Alacrity should be much stronger than Vigor. My math also says that, but my does too. 😄

[grizzled jay]

based Koji

[gusty kestrel]

we will see

[fleet anchor]

I mean right now Vigor is about a 2-3% damage talent and Alacrity is like... 10-12%.

[remote heath]

pretty amazing there are so many potential good options though

[hollow river]

better get to uninstalling then

[winter hill]

wait tricks increases damage now? like it used to?

[balmy condor]

pvp talent

[warm parcel]

I believe in our man realz dance wont become a thing

[placid adder]

another1

[winter hill]

ah

[drifting cloud]

so youre saying theres a chance for vigor

[fleet anchor]

I mean always a chance

[balmy condor]

dance kingsbane sounds kinda good

tbh

[fleet anchor]

Alacrity is just really, really good lol

[hollow river]

its already been decided

[fleet anchor]

Assassination loves Haste

[gusty kestrel]

really?

[fleet anchor]

And Vigor is only base regen anyway

[obtuse robin]

its just grabbing the tooltip form the pvp one for some reason

wrong reply

[sharp falcon]

new feature: demon takes control of body irl, forces player to click down right side of class tree. Or maybe not, and you'll never have to play dance if u dont want to =x

[night delta]

perfectly lining up cooldowns is a plus for me, I wouldn't have to juggle cooldowns that much then

[warm parcel]

I mean if theres anything more heretical to assa its dance

[sharp falcon]

(I realize players will take 2% power disparity to mean they are "forced" but yeah, tuning TBD, we can talk about that when the time comes though)

[chilly marsh]

realz about fan of knives its possible to make it work without being mandatory to go get seal fate?

[fleet anchor]

Vigor is basically worth 1 energy/sec

[warm parcel]

So you can bet this boomer is all against dance

[obtuse robin]

not wanting new stealth game play as a stealth class

[fleet anchor]

It's a 10% multiplier on base 10 regen/sec

[bleak sky]

what's wrong with grabbing seal though

[chilly marsh]

fok just dont work without crit combo points and beign mandatorty to go fate seal kind of cut your possible choices

[hollow river]

there's so much crit for you to grab though

[balmy condor]

(fan of knives should be 2cp baseline but if you shoehorn it into a talent I won't be mad about it realz)

[sharp falcon]

this is a pretty meaningful gameplay divergence at baseline. I'll think about it and raise it with some others

[chilly marsh]

it makes you dont have a choice

[main solar]

so my quick reaction to the tree changes, atleast specifically the assassination spec tree, is that while a lot of talents got replaced/moved/changed as they needed to be, the way the pathing ends up being at the end makes me think the majority of the trees are just going to be mathed out. Aside from the branching off side talents, there really isn't much decision making once you've decided which capstone talent to go for, and all of that is likely just going to be "what sims better?"

[night delta]

15% actually ! That's so different

[gusty kestrel]

its 15 in DF

[hearty junco]

max energy tho, dunno how good that is on assa

[balmy condor]

the triple koji ping

[fleet anchor]

Ironically most of the value of Vigor is the increased max energy during lust/cooldowns right now

[hollow river]

[sharp falcon]

divergence from the existing norm that is

[hearty junco]

do assa get 2 shivs?

[balmy condor]

yes

[frosty bridge]

yep

[gusty kestrel]

yep

[night delta]

duped shiv'd kingsbanes here we go

[sharp falcon]

can hold a charge in M+ without losing DPS (under normal circumstances)

[hearty junco]

cool, and its seems they removed the shiv dmg thingy down in the tree, is kingsbane good?

[drifting cloud]

would you say you wouldnt be mad about it for realz?

[sharp falcon]

but u can also dump back to back at your discretion

[balmy condor]

it's higher up, and kingsbane might be good

[gusty kestrel]

ok boomer

[drifting cloud]

[fleet anchor]

Since Vigor doesn't scale Venomous Wounds it basically doesn't affect 60% of our regen

Haste affects all of it

[strange python]

Vigor is a one point node on the tree though, it's not much investment

[winter hill]

sad about indescriminate carnage target cap, understand why they did it tho.

[sharp falcon]

I am also sad, but I think this is the way

[gusty kestrel]

realz knew I would delete bosses in m+

[upbeat tinsel]

pretty much slim chance elusiveness ever gets picked with a sin build, right?

[gusty kestrel]

so he nerfed it

[fleet anchor]

8T cap on Carnage seems reasonable tbh

[night delta]

yeah, we don't want to encourage nutsos pulling 20+

[fleet anchor]

I mean, reasonable at least in the context of AoE cap in general. Which I don't like. But it is what it is. 😄

[remote heath]

8 targets as a compromise is alright

[hearty junco]

they didnt change lethal dose?

[balmy condor]

they did

[winter hill]

they did

[balmy condor]

can you like read the pins and then look at the calculator

and then come back

[spice surge]

Tbf if you could apply it to 20+ targets it would likely do significantly less damage to compensate

[night delta]

but 20+ scents of blood

[wet dagger]

even 30 targets for rupture/garrote isnt crazy compared to what some classes can do on the same count, but scent of blood gives you all that agi too

[winter hill]

yeah, i was mostly thinking of the synergy with scent of blood

[jaunty crystal]

dude m+ sin looking to be so fun

[hearty junco]

oh damn, sry im on phone and i dont see pins, outlaw didnt have updated pins

[winter hill]

whispyr too fast when it comes to assa changes

[balmy condor]

that's cause outlaw is full of deadbeat fathers

[gusty kestrel]

@sudden brook hello do pins

[white orchid]

Guessing carnage and SBS is the way to go on m+ with all the juicy garrote damage stuff

[frosty bridge]

They can always give scent a limit

[hearty junco]

what got changed on lethal then, can only see "tuning"

[drifting cloud]

hes using all his bandwith on downloading alpha, nothing left for pins

[wet dagger]

feelsbad we can't get kingsbade and dragon-tempered blades for megastacking it

[subtle kiln]

@gusty kestrel did @sudden brook update pins yet?

[winter hill]

i mean they did just do that indirectly

[gusty kestrel]

@subtle kiln no I dont think @sudden brook did update them yet

[fleet anchor]

Who cares about Outlaw pins anyway

Everyone knows there's only 1 talent point that matters

[subtle kiln]

more than the sub pins

[sudden brook]

[jaunty crystal]

this is why whispyr is an orange name

[drifting cloud]

mans updating pins at 2am on vacation

[balmy condor]

yeah our rank system here actually works based on how fast you can react to alpha builds

[subtle kiln]

shouldnt guy be white then?

[balmy condor]

faster than 2 minutes you get purple, faster than 5 you get orange

[frosty bridge]

I get it, I just think it's less fun that way

Not that big of a deal though, how often do you pull 8+ anyway

[wet dagger]

how much would the 2 extra cp from stealth garrote even matter? wouldn't you still want to use the whole window spreading 3 around anyway? On ST I can see it helping

[balmy condor]

you're telling me he's not?

[balmy condor]

the extra cp means you're at full cp after opening, instead of at 3

[wet dagger]

always pulling 8+ in keys 20+ (almost always)

[balmy condor]

you can gar x3 and then finish

(not that you would take subterfuge anyway though)

[wet dagger]

so speedup by 1 gcd?

[gusty kestrel]

thats a lie

[balmy condor]

yeah it's a feels thing

[gusty kestrel]

we all know purples need 2 years to react

and not 2 minutes

[balmy condor]

shrouded still has 15% damage buff

[subtle kiln]

I can't keep track of oxi, now I have to take care of another one?

[balmy condor]

so it's still more damage

[wet dagger]

yeah that's fair

[balmy condor]

the cp are just nice on top

[wet dagger]

I suppose, as well, you might only hit it once if you start with carnage

[balmy condor]

give an ability infinite cp and it feels powerful

[strange python]

What's the point of dtb and it's preceding talents now though? Alternative to indiscriminate carnage for m+? Could it even compete?

[subtle kiln]

dance shrouded point and laugh at sub

[remote heath]

theres no way you dont take IC for m+

[subtle kiln]

where's my musclebrah garrote clip at

[night delta]

the preceding talents are heavy envenom-focused, which doesn't sound very m+

[wet dagger]

I had thought dtb might be good for ST but there's no way it's better then kingsbane (I'm probably wrong bc its feelcraft)

[strange python]

Which is why I fail to see a scenario in which you would use it

[fleet whale]

it may be tuned good for st though

[remote heath]

dtb seems like a good choice if our tier makes envenoms giga op

[fleet whale]

and in that case, you use it

[dense herald]

Whisp, if there are clear poison/bleeds builds and a mut/ambush build, would there be enough reason to choose between them in different scenarios do you think?
It’s great in theory, but wouldn’t it just come down to a sim and potentially picking one playstyle the whole expansion?

[wet dagger]

I was hoping you could take both and use double the lethal procs to make a mega kingsbane but we need 1 more talent point for that 😦

[night delta]

Imo It's a lower skill-floor option : more energy regen, less focus on burst windows

[dense herald]

I’d love them to have different damage patterns

[gusty mirage]

@gusty kestrel hi ur cute

[fleet whale]

KB tree seems to be burst focused

[night delta]

yeah, DTB looks like more smooth

[wet dagger]

did they every clarify if the two lethals on dtb have to be different ones? or can you just run two deadlies

[strange python]

The talents encourage envenom usage quite a bit, surely amplifying would be worth the slot

[balmy condor]

I mean that kinda exists with exsang being a burst thing. I don't see a raw builder spec being good unless it's just numerically superior in every way

[remote heath]

will probably heavily depend on the fight and potential tierbonuses

[balmy condor]

he specifically added a second point to poison bomb to prevent that

[wet dagger]

I mean you're still not gonna be letting garrotes/ruptures lapse so I doubt you'd see more envenoms than usual

[grim canopy]

gonna be low APM, old grandpa can play it

[balmy condor]

and they are different yes, can't double up

[night delta]

Remember, no 4p anymore, and hopefully no CT aswell

[balmy condor]

Low APM is good

sin is low APM

always has been

[night delta]

that means quite a lot more envenoms than right now

[grim canopy]

true

[fleet whale]

I don't see CT being used in ST, at least at the start of DF

[wet dagger]

well I can't specifically speak for rn I just mean for next xpac

[fleet whale]

aren't many talents that really buff it

[night delta]

yeah, it sits on its own

[gusty kestrel]

no u

[balmy condor]

and with that you just spoke CT single target back into existence

[night delta]

as long as its great for AoE, it being bad in ST is totally fine by me

[wet dagger]

regardless of those talents, it's still lower prio than rupture

[subtle kiln]

why do you let this happen

[wet dagger]

as a finisher

[trail otter]

OH MY GOD

[night delta]

I mean, you rupture every 24 seconds

[trail otter]

IT'S THE ASSASINATION DREAM

[balmy condor]

add a talent after CT that is the reverse of the blade flurry thing, it does less damage single target, and more damage aoe

[spice surge]

Its in the name, Cingle Target

[balmy condor]

Keep Yourself Safe

[trail otter]

Shrouded suffocation back

👀

I'm so happy

[grim canopy]

it looks nerfed tho

[open rapids]

Is kingsbane back?!

[trail otter]

As long as it generates 2 CP and does more damage even if it was like 5% it feels fun af imo

[balmy condor]

I made pins

pls

[trail otter]

2 additional *

[balmy condor]

read

[fleet whale]

Buffed PB kills CT for single target

unless we get crazy haste again or some busted tier

[wet dagger]

my only point rn is that, talents or no, every finisher would be envenom outside of mandatory dot management, which is and will always be more important. Buffing envenom won't change that, it'll just make it more impactful when you do it. Thus, the "encouraging envenom usage" is redundant, imo.

[trail otter]

How can you tell the pathing got better? I checked pins but I can not find updated path

Oh it's actually updated on wowhead I'm dumb

I haven't refreshed in a bit

[remote heath]

https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/rogue/assassination

[wet dagger]

maybe the talent calculator should just get shoved in those pins lol

[balmy condor]

yeh

working on it

[fleet whale]

just need to bring back echoing blades

[night delta]

I'm starting to lose where that convo started, but my point was that the DTB branch is not tailored for AoE at all since most buffs it gives is to envenom, a spell we barely use (if at all) in AoE

if I got mixed up in the replies mb

[gray warren]

you'll use it because PB doesn't proc with rupture anymore

[fleet whale]

although increased chance on PB chance will make envenom a little better in aoe

plus PB has no target cap

[trail otter]

Holy shit. This tree is so good wtf???

[gray warren]

but 50% on envenom

[trail otter]

Am I crazy

[frosty bridge]

Yeah it's Nutty

[remote heath]

you are not crazy

[gray warren]

Yes the tree is sooo good

[trail otter]

Wtf I'm actually losing my sh**

[winter hill]

tree is insane. imo best tree atm

wrong reply

[night delta]

Having a finisher have a 50% chance to actually do any AoE damage is not very reliable in an AoE situation

[fleet whale]

hopefully blizz doesn't screw it up

[grim canopy]

i dont like the rogue basic tree

[wet dagger]

I was just nitpicking some redundant word choice, it's on me lol, I wasn't even specifically disagreeing with you

[remote heath]

definitely one of the better ones thats for sure

[gray warren]

But i agree ahah

[night delta]

it's more of a cleave option

if it procs, cool, if it doesnt, whatever, you were focusing prio anyway

[obtuse robin]

the fact that having a raid build down the middle and u still dont have either maim , ttb sepsis or sbs which u want all is really good

[gray warren]

Yea but the spec can't be godlike everywhere

[night delta]

I mean, if you're looking into AoE, you're not going the DTB route anyway

in my mind it's a strictly ST or optional cleave option

[strange python]

So dtb could potentially be the best cleave option with pb

[fleet whale]

I do think it's a little odd that CT is on the left side of the tree

with carnage all the way to the right

[strange python]

I don't see it being better st than kingsbane

Unless some big nerfs happen

[obtuse robin]

?

[fleet whale]

We don't know numbers yet

[austere steppe]

Would cold blood work with Kingsbane and nightstalker?

[night delta]

oh good question regarding kingsbane. I would assume it would only crit its instant damage part

[wet dagger]

ooh a coldblooded KB would be insane

[night delta]

or else oh my god

[wet dagger]

I mean whispyr put in the pins that CB should work with bleeds...

I assume poisons weren't mentioned bc they're usually just overwritten

[strange python]

Wouldn't that be super broken for IC though

[wet dagger]

shrug

[balmy condor]

Yes

[strange python]

You could go shadow dance IC with nightstalker and CB

[night delta]

Cold blooded SBS pog

[wet dagger]

not sure if IC spreads buffed bleeds yet

[night delta]

ALWAYS CRITS TIL THE END OF TIME

[wet dagger]

I thought

[balmy condor]

It does

[brave isle]

@balmy condor did you see that tricks gives damage now?

[wet dagger]

ah

[winter hill]

If cb works on rupture ic then holy

[brave isle]

[balmy condor]

We boutta take a brisk walk to HR together

[fleet whale]

i mean, that's rogue utility

[frosty bridge]

Surely CB would only buff the initial damage

[wet dagger]

should get like 10 minute bans for people not reading pins

[frosty bridge]

of KB

[wet dagger]

lol

[fleet whale]

and, we can take bribes from other raiders

so that they can get the trix buff

it would be a good thing if it was real

[frosty bridge]

Dude if warcraft logs splits logs with external buffs the stonks will go down

[brave isle]

[strange python]

KB pretty much useless on assa by only buffing initial damage which would be a shame, especially if you want to grab sdance

[fleet whale]

KB? do you mean CB?

[strange python]

CB yeah

My bad

[frosty bridge]

CB could be insane with IC

but we'll have to see

[wet dagger]

or with SBS or Kingsbane

[night delta]

Those KB windows would be nutty though. Reserve both shiv charges, shadow dance and CB for every KB, every minute

[winter hill]

if it works then yeah IC CB rupture is insane

[night delta]

each minute, VOMIT ALL THE COOLDOWNS

[frosty bridge]

I swear there is no way CB would buff anything but the instant damage from KB

[balmy condor]

the intention is that CB buffs the entire bleed, and IC applies buffed bleeds

if tuning means it doesn't

then it doesn't

but that's how it's supposed to work right now

[strange python]

Imagine the power

[winter hill]

i pray this does not change. seems too much fun

[warm parcel]

how is a bleed critting fun

honest q

[frosty bridge]

You install the ClassicNumbers addon and make every crit you do make a sound

[night delta]

gonna see a lot of crit numbers pop ou all over the place if CB works in conjunction with IC

[winter hill]

lots of numbers

[balmy condor]

his bar graph is slightly longer than the rest of the teams bar graphs

[wet dagger]

are we still unsure on if duplicated bleeds on Deathmark both keep the buff?

[balmy condor]

they do

[wet dagger]

or would you theoretically CB the deathmark lol

[misty holly]

Will cold blood buff things like rupture then?

[balmy condor]

I feel like I just answered that

[balmy condor]

okay this I definitely answered like 25 times in the last couple minutes

[warm parcel]

godspeed man

[wet dagger]

we need a "check the mfing pins" emote

[warm parcel]

you mean the kind of we have

[frosty bridge]

[main solar]

Just going through and trying to play with different specs, I feel like it comes down to "which of these two talents sim better" to know where to drop points from. I think most of it comes down to the lack of branching from one side of the tree to the other. Very much "pick a capstone, go all the way down, and just pick up the best damage talents because the gates make me spend more points." I'm sure the limiting factor to that is you can't create too many branches without breaking the tree entirely and allowing multiple capstones (Kingsbane + DTB would be waaaayyy OP). As far as the general tree, still not a fan of MfD and Cold Blood being required picks to go down the tree. Shadow Dance and Seal Fate being really strong alone feel like they really limit options in the bottom portion of the tree. Perhaps thats a tuning thing, but atleast Seal Fate was pretty much how assassination was designed around, and particularly in AoE, feels rreeeeaaaallllyyyy bad to play without with lack of combo point generation.

[frosty bridge]

[wet dagger]

oh I just looked didnt see it mb lol

[subtle kiln]

what does cold blood buff?

[wet dagger]

this mans funny

[remote heath]

buffs sap

double duration

[night delta]

came up with this, feeels good, is probably bad, idk

[balmy condor]

my tendency for homicide

[wet dagger]

it gives you 100% crit on everything if you tricks yourself

for 30 sec

[subtle kiln]

this was the answer I was looking for

[balmy condor]

yeh seems fine

[subtle kiln]

amateur hour with “sap”

[balmy condor]

idk bout blindside over PB though

pb seems kinda really good

[warm parcel]

2 nonlethal poisons

but no dragon

[subtle kiln]

sbs enjoyer

[vast loom]

My current biggest issue with the Sin tree is that its too linear at the bottom of the tree, esp with the low value of stuff like Vicious Venom and TTB it makes the value of the things below it so much worse. We also cant get 2 capstones which is fine i guess? but it seems liek the default for most specs is you get 2 capstones

[strange python]

Pb seems kinda bad on st

[night delta]

to compensate potential lack of energy gen

[subtle kiln]

…

[balmy condor]

no dragon but you can dragon my face with your balls because dragon ballz

[balmy condor]

bruh

[wet dagger]

I mean you CAN get IC and KB

but you're missing out on cov

[warm parcel]

works

[remote heath]

theres really not gonna be a lack of regen

[subtle kiln]

wait people actually want rogue covenants?

[warm parcel]

no

[balmy condor]

yeah that's what we said earlier and he didn't believe us

[meager granite]

The man is turning into 100% pure sheer will and dedication at this point. Nearly deserve the status of a saint

[vast loom]

Vendetta baseline is what 60 energy over 3 sec?

[subtle kiln]

what’s vendetta

[warm parcel]

hows the jetlag

[wet dagger]

venomous wounds is buffed and double the poison procs during deathmark anyway

[subtle kiln]

you should respond to the notification

[wet dagger]

= stonks

[balmy condor]

fine, it's been a wEak, I'm over it

[balmy condor]

I did, it said I had a screenshot

[meager granite]

That's k whispyr, I too am on the good side of the planet 🙂

[warm parcel]

still keeping up with the degen hours at least

[meager granite]

sleep is for the weaklings

[vast loom]

SBS is just a free 2% dmg with lethal poison lol

[drifting cloud]

he got alpha at 1am its a curse and a blessing

[balmy condor]

yeah but can't download

if I download alpha I can't use discord

[wet dagger]

and then you look at, like, sepsis, which only does 2/3 the damage of bone spike over a 1 min 30 period WITHOUT the bleed part of bone spike

[balmy condor]

I.....

don't have the energy

[remote heath]

[austere steppe]

Thoughts on this for pure ST?

[wet dagger]

we'll all have suffocated in the tide of the pinless within 3 days

[vast loom]

no lethal dose is giga sadge

[balmy condor]

take dance, get rid of deeper

otherwise probably fine

[vast loom]

wait

[wet dagger]

no GOUGE!?!?!?\

[lucid birch]

hey just wondering will cold blood buff things like rupture then?

[wet dagger]

wait its ST

nvm

[remote heath]

[vast loom]

is class tree shiv different than sin tree shiv???

[main solar]

General tree seems way too linear. Not much choice at all.

[balmy condor]

I'm gonna snap

[frosty bridge]

[gray warren]

no lethal dose lol

[wet dagger]

go on a murderous rampage whispyr we'll back you up

[tulip tide]

Ye the 2x shiv is sus

[wet dagger]

just shoot the next person to ask

no cap

[night delta]

agreed about deathmark, no problem during the 15s window every 2 mins, though about venomous wounds it's only a buff compared to the previous DF version, right now on live it's 8/tick, but here it's 7/tick

[vast loom]

2 charges of shiv (this is intentional) found it

[night delta]

and we're gonna have less haste

[balmy condor]

don't come to school tomorrow you're okay

[vast loom]

theres a lot of words in the pins okay

[winter hill]

the thing is, again later on whispyr is gonna get the same questions over and over again xD

[vast loom]

🙂

[wet dagger]

fair

[balmy condor]

yeah but I will have slept and not answered those same questions over and over

[meager granite]

man you should have a mandatory list of readings to do before being able to type in the discord for alpha stuff 😄

[balmy condor]

reset my social battery

[winter hill]

true

[balmy condor]

we've tried this actually

and it was more annoying to do that

because people then DM'd mods

[wet dagger]

make them pass a quiz

[night delta]

so running on venomous wounds alone on 10.0 will basically bring back 9.0 without dashing in terms of energy

[balmy condor]

unable to complete the readings

[vast loom]

have a quiz you need to take

🙂

[winter hill]

class discords would have like no people if a quiz was required ngl

[balmy condor]

we actually still get dm's about "why can't I talk in channels"

[gray warren]

rename the channel "Assa check pins"

[wet dagger]

Question 1: Will Cold Blood Work on Bleeds? If you can't answer this, you get banned

[marsh cedar]

oh man shrouded suffocation is back bitchesssss

[wet dagger]

the whole group of channels has "check pins" in the name

[balmy condor]

okay before I leave for the night

read the pins

is there anything that I need to add

[tulip tide]

2x shiv sounds svooo weird ngl

[balmy condor]

that will be asked 200 times while I'm asleep

[fleet whale]

why are we taking just 2 points in alacrity?

[balmy condor]

you hurt me

[meager granite]

Will you play exsang? 🙂

[gloomy knoll]

new shiv logic would just be sit on 1, don't overcap use 2 every deathmark, or sit on them and use 2 every kingsbane (every other with deathmark) right?

[balmy condor]

okay fuck you guys

god damnit

[gray warren]

xD

[wet dagger]

you could clarify deathmark/IC working on the buffed versions

[ebon notch]

wtf

[paper crane]

hi what spec is good for DH?

[ebon notch]

ask first

[night delta]

2 every kingsbane intuitively sounds like the right call

[frosty bridge]

pins

[gloomy knoll]

a world where shiv isn't used on cd

[strange python]

has anyone simmed the pins yet

[gloomy knoll]

well that depends on if you take kb or not

but yea

not using shiv on cd

[meager granite]

Whispyr PB change, not procing from ruptures now

[gloomy knoll]

where's the jpc clip

900000000000000 iq rogue

if you're not a genius don't play sin

[meager granite]

you didn't mentionned it in the pin

[wet dagger]

as it is, they both still say unsure in the previous pin

[gloomy knoll]

the gameplay the sheer decisionmaking

[balmy condor]

already in there

[fleet whale]

Do you think people will miss vendetta in DF?

[remote heath]

[meager granite]

OK but since you mention PB before its going back and forth

• Poison bomb is now 2 points, which prevents taking Dragon Tempered + an additional capstone. Carnage and Kingsbane CANNOT be taken alongside dragon tempered. That's intentional.

[night delta]

[balmy condor]

can do

[frosty bridge]

To be fair, you have to have a high IQ to understand Sin

[winter hill]

i know i certainly won't. new cd sounds way more assa like to me

[wet dagger]

you have to have a high IQ to read pins

[balmy condor]

fixed

[fleet whale]

I think Tea could be a sleeper talent in early game

[meager granite]

Venomous wounds buff ? thho maybe not worthh to mention

[paper crane]

the only reason I play ass is for vendetta

[strange python]

Any info on the shiv effect of atrophic poison btw?

[paper crane]

specifically that one button

[meager granite]

compared to #1 version ofc

[paper crane]

nothing else

[strange python]

Or will it just have none?

[balmy condor]

as of right now just assume atrophic is not buffed by anything

[balmy condor]

probably whatever

[marsh cedar]

cheat death is in the bad position for sin

[vast loom]

not really

[austere steppe]

just learn to dodge mechanics

[vast loom]

dance is decent

now

[austere steppe]

:^)

[balmy condor]

it's actually on the way

[vast loom]

with shrouded

[balmy condor]

it's an auto pickup on your way to dance

[main solar]

In principal, it is, but you're pretty much required to get shadow dance atm, so its fine.

[vast loom]

im thinking something along this for ST raid, KB or double poison i think is tuning related

[warm parcel]

st but no BS or venom rush

[balmy condor]

seems okay but CT is whack and SBS is whack and shrouded is whack

[main solar]

also takes crimson tempest

[balmy condor]

also 1 point alacrity seems questionable

[warm parcel]

also dance

all my homies hate dance

[balmy condor]

no the dance is good

that stays

[warm parcel]

[strange python]

Dance will be for aoe not st

[austere steppe]

wouldnt u want DS with SS?

[vast loom]

is venom rush good?

[balmy condor]

no

[paper crane]

my 2 second ST build

[balmy condor]

deeper dogshit

[paper crane]

I just clicked shit

[balmy condor]

no increased finisher damage

dead talent

[warm parcel]

ep

just skip ep

[marsh cedar]

oh they changed deeper ?

[night delta]

Dance is also a straight up steroid, and a potent one at that. Which is kinda not ideal imo, looks too strong

[vast loom]

lethality just seems so good

[marsh cedar]

before it was like 5% increase damage

[vast loom]

but maybe im over valueing crit dmg

[balmy condor]

okay me go bed, feel free to DM or ping me your worst abomination of a talent tree so I can wake up with tears of sadness in my eyes love you all don't burn the place down

[vast loom]

on mutilate

[balmy condor]

[strange python]

We need a point behind exsang that makes it aoe so we can combo it with IC

[obtuse robin]

[paper crane]

why isnt FoK in the tree

[remote heath]

just remove exsang

[main solar]

2 points lethality, 2 points alacrity. Otherwise, the tree seems like the cookie cutter general tree

[remote heath]

fok is baseline

[paper crane]

dang that sucks

[remote heath]

same for shuriken storm for sub

[vast loom]

KB might just be worth a lot more cuz its burst

[paper crane]

really like the new placements for everything

[bleak sky]

maim mangle
no doomblade

[night delta]

Why going dragon tempered blades but no amp poison though

[paper crane]

I ran through it in 2 seconds

[night delta]

This is burning my eyes

[vast loom]

Vicious Venom feels so bad

[night delta]

Ok then

[bleak sky]

click with purpose

[paper crane]

no

[vast loom]

like do i want to have good mutilate dmg

[main solar]

I think I dislike the current general tree way more than the last iteration. Im slowly warming up to assassination's in the sense that you can't just have everything, but still dislike the lack of branching over.

[vast loom]

ew gross

[bleak sky]

do you think this is a game vep?

this is not a game

[paper crane]

I just wait for noxxic build

and ctrl c

[bleak sky]

whose alt is this

[paper crane]

vep

[bleak sky]

vep sounds like vel

@oak sky vel alt identified

[paper crane]

frick

[night delta]

Kinda wish class-tree shadow dance didn't amp damage by 10%, combined with nightstalker it's really too good

I mean, compare with Thistle tea on the other side

[main solar]

Part of the problem is none of the other capstones are any good for us atm. We know next build will have more stuff and perhaps changes to thistle tea are in there.

[strange python]

I was sure thistle tea would get buffed

But it didn't

[marsh cedar]

whats increase effect i dont understand

[warm parcel]

Not quite sure why any of the numbers on the new talents would have any meaning

[night delta]

It's stil 0.06s cooldown though

[warm parcel]

Theyre not even out yet

[main solar]

for assassination, basically just longer duration

[warm parcel]

Blizz can change any number on any base sepll or talent and boom option b wins now

Rather give feedback on how stuff feels

[subtle kiln]

wEak crushing dreams with reality

[warm parcel]

Like KB

[strange python]

Sure it's nice for bl but it needs a secondary effect to be worth considering in pve

Maybe a temporary energy regen buff

[warm parcel]

You gonna pick it if you need burst and it provides enough of it

[night delta]

Effects that scale with combo points also scale with the 6th

[warm parcel]

Theres nothing more to it

Question is does the tree leading up to KB play nice

How strict is it

[night delta]

But now it lacks the bonus +5% damage to finishers on top.

[warm parcel]

Compared to other classes rogues lack going from left side to right

[subtle kiln]

how many extra buttons / will I need a foot pedal

[warm parcel]

We pick a lane and go down

[marsh cedar]

hmm i see so its basicly shit now

[night delta]

Since we'll line up many cooldowns, just macro that shit

[strange python]

Yeah the rogue tree is very vertical but you can't change that without removing a lot of the two/three point nodes

That was the main gripe people had with the hunter tree and I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up more about rogue

[warm parcel]

Well rogue tree with its current layout needs the extra points to block out the 2 capstones

Not being able to get both 2 lethals and KB is by design

So it does feel bad to have zoldyck there sure

[strange python]

I think the idea of blocking out capstones is stupid by itself, you should be encouraged to experiment with them

[warm parcel]

But it would need some overall tree reform to change

Okay counter to that

[strange python]

The reason shaman tree is so fun to mess around with is because 1 point connector nodes allow you to combine various capstone and choice nodes at will

[warm parcel]

Would you rather have Kingsbane be a really cool and impactful captstone
or
Would you have it possible you can take KB and 2 lethals but you always have to pick those 2 together

[subtle kiln]

and wait to see if that stays in

[warm parcel]

Cause if you limit players to just one

Both can be individually better

Where as comboed they have to be watered down

Or there will be no balance

[subtle kiln]

shaman trees have as much of a chance going live like that as the outlaw tree does

[strange python]

You could just make dtb a choice node with kingsbane

And nothing gets watered down

[main solar]

In the previous iteration, I think you pretty much got to pick most of the talents from all the branches and not feel like you missed out, so the verticality wasn't felt so much. Now with KB and needing to limit going DTB, and also making some of the other bottom tree talents less "dead picks", the verticality is much more present.

[subtle kiln]

or the tuning on their capstones should be adjusted since they can have multiple

[night delta]

The only way permitting multiple capstones that are also fun would be to have more capstones

[warm parcel]

Dragon doesnt make any sense down there in the left lane tho

[muted ivy]

Zoldyk and Maim, Mangle could literally swap places and it would feel a lot better

[warm parcel]

All talents leading up to it have nothing to do with double lethals

[night delta]

So there would be multiple combinations

[warm parcel]

And you would need new capstone for mid lane

[strange python]

Almost every class has four capstones I don't see why rogue has to have three

[warm parcel]

A do all trees have to be the same
B rogue trees are still quite clearly under construction

Our choise nodes arent that great and sub doesnt even have them

[misty holly]

On top of that, they are set up for a problem next expansion when we get 5 more points to spend. ion did say they planned to continue iterating and adding to the trees in future expansions.

[muted ivy]

They really need to consider just having a set level cap

[night delta]

Capstones can be moved up (or down I guess)

[frail birch]

Next xpac adds 3 more zoldyk points and a choice node

[night delta]

And replaced with new things

[vast loom]

Okay this is maybe GIGA, but Kingsbane has wording that says its a lethal poison and death mark says it dupes lethal poisons. Does deathmark double KB???

[night delta]

Most likely yes

[warm parcel]

it can or it cant

[vast loom]

if it does

[warm parcel]

doesnt really matter if it does

just damage

doesnt affect gameplay

[grizzled jay]

okay lcs roster lock is over. big moves. did i miss anything else

[vast loom]

yeah its just a cool interaction

[muted ivy]

eh, KB is a "lethal posion" and Deathmark dupes "Lethal Posions"

there's a difference

[grizzled jay]

we will find out very soon

[night delta]

By wording it would, if balancing says it shouldn't, it won't

[warm parcel]

ye but devs can literally just flip a switch and it wont dupe

[fleet whale]

there is some snapshot potential there with deathmark and kb

[warm parcel]

sure it working would prolly be nice from gameplay consistency standpoint

[grizzled jay]

KB duping would not be healthy imo it would completely kill DTB tbqh

[warm parcel]

but not like assa and its wording has ever had consistency

[subtle kiln]

tooltips and matching in game

[grizzled jay]

Main Gauche

[night delta]

Realz said they are not sure yet if they want snapshots/overhang to be a thing

[cunning kestrel]

I’m confused by the talent tree changes. Is Garrotte assassination only now? Is it baseline? I don’t see it in the spec tree just the improved versions.

[main solar]

I dont have much problem with assassination's tree aside from the heavy verticality past tier 4. The verticality in the general tree feels like a huge problem though. I very much dislike MfD and Cold blood's positioning (both rotational active buttons that are must picks), and cheat death's position feels funky, but probably doesn't get enough attention because everyone's build picks it up going for shadow dance atm. In a world where you don't get shadow dance, passing on cheat death feels bad.

[fleet whale]

garrote is sin only now

[muted ivy]

KB is a "lethal poison" by description and not classification I believe

[warm parcel]

ye this is the kinda feedback thats useful if you ask me

[fleet whale]

yeah i agree on the Cold blood and MFD sentiment

taking both just feels like a bit too much bloat for me

[gloomy knoll]

why is cold blood a must pick

[warm parcel]

thats presuming dance is a must pick

and only way to get down is thru CB

[main solar]

try going down to shadow dance without taking it, i dare you 😛

[fleet whale]

dance may not be good just to let you all know

[gloomy knoll]

ah in that sense

[grizzled jay]

I think it would be nice to have Vigor also link to Tea and Deeper also link to Dance.

[gloomy knoll]

i thought you meant in the sense of they're so good you have to pick them

my bad

[warm parcel]

and given the history of cheat death

[gloomy knoll]

but yea if you want dance it's forced

[warm parcel]

we are likely to want to go down that path

and as thats the path that leads to dance

[grizzled jay]

I think the right-side other than Dance is really lame, so having to go down it for Dance if its a must-pick would feel awful.

[warm parcel]

it all kind of just automates

I cant imagine progressing and not wanting cheat

Just part of rogues identity imo

[grizzled jay]

but my idea also opens up being able to go for Dance and Tea, or Tea and Dance. I think having Lethality and Alac be 3pts and both of them not link to a capstone is real bad design overall.

Alac is just too strong to not take, it kills the class tree

[fleet whale]

alac should just be one point imo

[grizzled jay]

but if you could go Alac -> Deeper -> Dance

that would feel good

[subtle kiln]

i’m excited to have more stealth attacks with dance

[grizzled jay]

or Lethality -> Vigor -> Tea.

[subtle kiln]

deeper is w/e.

[grizzled jay]

the right-side can still be taken for Dance-builds and that is fine. but open up the middle of the tree since it's packed with 6 near must-take pts.

[subtle kiln]

see what tuning says

[grizzled jay]

but with nothing to go towards for those 6 pts that are big

[night delta]

Deeper would need to be buffed though

Right now it's very bad for sin

[grizzled jay]

It doesn't need to be buffed, it's just bad for Sin specifically. Having 1 meh talent for Sin is w/e.

[gloomy knoll]

i mean you do have to realize too the class tree is based around 3 specs

they can't just cater the whole tree to one specs preferences

[grizzled jay]

all 3 love it do they not? maybe it's weakest on Sub.

[night delta]

I mean having to go through several meh talents to get to a numerically strong talent that has never been part of the sin identity

[main solar]

I also don't know how to feel about Vigor and Deeper Stratagem not really being reachable. Are they that great, especially in their current form? Probably not and not really an issue there. But going from being our major talent choice in the current live trees to just not taking any of them (except mfd for the reason I mentioned before) feels odd I guess?

[night delta]

Does not rhyme with "feels good" to me

[grizzled jay]

but Outlaw takes Alac too atm. Has for a long ass time.

[gloomy knoll]

sub has never

[misty holly]

Is no one going down the middle tree in general? Personally I'm looking forward to 100 combo point ambush combined with Shadowdance.

[gloomy knoll]

there's synergies on the left side and the middle for sub

but you have to get dance

[fleet whale]

I'm still of the opinion that I don't think dance should be in the general tree at at

[gloomy knoll]

the point of talent trees is to make different builds viable and give you some choice

[grizzled jay]

right so if you linked Deeper to Dance it would help Sub a lot too

[gloomy knoll]

getting everything you want defeats the purpose

[night delta]

Also agree, or at least not in this state

[grizzled jay]

Having Dance be effectively tied to a "Dance Build" is not healthy design for that side of the tree.

[main solar]

Agreed honestly. As fun as I feel like it might be, I have to wonder if it just introduces too many other problems

[grizzled jay]

the Left and Middle have no distinct "build" but the Right is all stuff that Dance interacts with.

[subtle kiln]

eh?

welcome to the sub side of the tree

[gloomy knoll]

the left is assasin stuff

[grizzled jay]

I think having Dance be pickable without getting all the Dance talents should be an option

[gloomy knoll]

the middle is outlaw stuff

the right is sub stuff

that's kind of the point of the generic tree

identities from all 3 specs that each can use to make neat builds

[grizzled jay]

Deadly Precision and Seal Fate are not intrinsically tied to Thistle Tea

[gloomy knoll]

they're tied to sin

that's the sin side

[night delta]

Honestly i'm looking at the mage class tree and it's everything I'd hoped from a class tree

[warm parcel]

I disagree

[grizzled jay]

but Nightstalker, Find Weakness are intrinsically tied to Dance.

[warm parcel]

mage class tree doesnt "force" you down a path

[grizzled jay]

Their power is dependent on you getting Dance

[fleet whale]

@night delta don't look at the arcane tree though lol

[grizzled jay]

Seal Fate is not dependent on Thistle Tea.

[warm parcel]

rogue class tree has too specific stuff

[night delta]

Minimal throughput talents, lots of utility and situational

[gloomy knoll]

so you're saying you want better connectivity between the nodes?

in each path

[warm parcel]

so it easily synergises with a spec

[grizzled jay]

Specifically at the bottm yes

Vigor -> Tea. Deeper -> Dance.

[gloomy knoll]

i'd be fine with that

[night delta]

Only looked at class, frost and fire atm

[grizzled jay]

This allows a spec like Outlaw to get Dance without giving up something like Seal Fate (have no idea if they actually take SF).

cause they could go Alac -> Deeper -> Dance.

another solution would be to reduce Lethality and Alac to 1 point wonders but that might be too much.

I just dislike the right side a lot.

[main solar]

That's probably a balancing issue, where whatever spec happens to be in the middle gets the most choice. Still couldnt go from the Assassination side all the way to the Sub side

[warm parcel]

what if rogue tree wasnt just 90% thru put talents

and instead was about utility and cool shit like mages

so you could pick something thats not just "oh this sims best"

[faint harness]

The way we got it explained was that any player should be able to log on and pick "their side of the class tree" (their spec) and it would have to make sense. So if you play sub you should be able to just pick everything down the sub side and it makes the spec play decently well and "makes sense". So it's not only catered to number pushing min/max

[night delta]

Exactly

Mage class tree is masterclass

[warm parcel]

Id rather have that from spec tree

[grizzled jay]

if Deeper was tied to Dance you could give up Vigor + 1 pt in Lethality and get Tea + Dance. Also reverse (giving up Deeper + 1 Alac for Tea). With my proposed idea.

[warm parcel]

Rogue spec tree looks small compared to others

[fleet whale]

why do outlaw have 2 initial talents, and sub have 3 initial talents
when every other spec revealed thus far only have one

[main solar]

true, there is quite a bit of through put in the general tree and atm, its really cookie cutter with the lack of branches

[fleet whale]

seems like a waste of points

[warm parcel]

So we could easily throw shit from rogue tree back into specs

reduce amount of 3 pointers