Assa going to be pog next expansion 
#assassination
proper gulch
soft granite
DR-bot 
desert orchid
so is sin pretty much unviable in m+ still?
strange python
what you mean by "unviable" though?
I mean it's not utter trash...completely capable...just not op like some stuff.
desert orchid
can it keep up with the numbers to make it worth taking? It's been pretty meh in trash
strange python
whoes numbers, like destro? no chance
I've been like within 10% of top dmg in a 22 and timed it no problem, if that helps.
desert orchid
hell, even sub or outlaw numbers heh
viscid spear
Just let the other 2 dps AoE and you just slap bosses
strange python
nah sub will beat it
I mean i think it's fine up well past 20's anyway
People's definitions differ though.
It's just gonna be a lot more work for not as much dmg as sub, honestly - at the end of the day.
Some people like that though.
desert orchid
eh, I've always been a sin fan. Trying sub, and it's descent (missing a few trinkets and high ilvl weapons), but guess I haven't gotten used to the flow to time the cd's up between the bosses and the trash, and going into boss without them up feels energy starved. Albeit, it's hard to get in sync when you are pugging most of the runs
trying to debate learning the changes with sin with the tier bonuses, or trying to pick up outlaw, but I despise rtb
violet jackal
know your role and be happy with it
strange python
so is sin pretty much unviable in m+ still?
I played sin to 3150 exclusively. If you mean unviable for competitive play, sure. For 99% of players, it's 100% fine.
nova wolf
I played sin to 3150 exclusively. If you mean unviable for competitive play, sur...
That's a lot of stabbing
spice spire
Wow, I legitimately thought hateful chain would be bigger
strange python
wut
vestal wren
sub is atm worse tho
midnight mist
ballin
strange python
sub is better at st?
balmy condor
well
vestal wren
what gives sub/outlaw a push
strange python
I mean I don't mind sub at all so if sub is better at ST (and better at AOE) there's literally no reason to be sin
balmy condor
currently sub is worse
strange python
other than enjoyment
strange python
If sub is better at st, i'll just play sub s4, without a doubt.
i need to re-run outlaw now to make sub beat outlaw
night delta
I mean, does the sim take account of boss downtimes and all that jazz ?
that's a huge factor to what spec performs
midnight mist
because koji put in the eon bug
he said it will likely be fixed for s4 tho lol
strange python
i mean sub / venthyr's biggest problem (to me) has always been mechanics f'ing your flag...but sin is prone to the same situation so.
vestal wren
i am conflicted, maybe i shouldn't re-run
strange python
I think the biggest part of playing sin - is - that I actually feel like an assassin when i play it lol
strange python
It's just sub has, historically, never been the raiding spec.
spice spire
I’m checking the 6 minute timer to see if sigil gets stonks 
strange python
I'm not against it, by any means.
viscid spear
<https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/mCmsg6qatVQau2jsrRxHaJ>
What're those top two? I don't remember the icons
balmy condor
It's just sub has, historically, never been *the* raiding spec.
except last patch and the start of this patch yeah
strange python
Yeah - the only fight I played sub on was Kel'Thuzad mythic - last patch. Everything else was sin.
strange python
I'm actually excited about s4
vestal wren
and trinket from return to kharazan
viscid spear
Gee wilikers time to farm dungeons 
strange python
I've been realm top 10 assassination rogues - last 2 patches in m+ -- I bet if I played sin maybe I'd have a better time and could push a lot higher.
On Illidan (which I think is a decent server)
vestal wren
so its fusion amp / eoc / injector / cache on top
strange python
Did you sim the trinket from the second boss in SOD?
I forgot to look - i'd assume it's close
viscid spear
Why the Injector though? Mastery big rn because of tier set?
vestal wren
the trinekt list includes all dugeons/raids from s4
so talzavesh/kharazan/mechagon/iron docks/grimrail + the 3 raids
strange python
ok - so I could assume if I run Ocular and some m+ trinket, i'd be close anyway.
like well within 1% anyway
vestal wren
seems like many of the trinkets are close
strange python
I wish the alchemy trinket was a bit better
vestal wren
tbh assassinaiton was the only surprise spec when it comes to trinkets
sub/outlaw choices are a lot more predicable
spice spire
Sigil sims -21 on fusion amp at 6 minutes
vestal wren
sigil is a good one too ye
spice spire
So even with two uses; fusion amp is really good
vestal wren
i was also surprised that NF goe closer to Venthyr
spice spire
DoS won’t be there next season
night delta
sigil is quite dependent on encounter time though
strange python
DoS won’t be there next season
ahhhhhhhh ok good point
vestal wren
season 4:
night delta
worst value at 4:50 long encounter
viscid spear
At this point I want to skip to DF
Mostly because it'll be Autumn/Winter by then 
vestal wren
vs. season 3
spice spire
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
vestal wren
just to mention it, i have not included some loot from the wod dungeons in the sims yet
because ... well rings with agi for example
night delta
See, i've been right all along, just ahead of my time
one could say, ahead of the curve
strange python
one could say, ahead of the curve
I like that
I'm just surprised at the 22,800 mark - that's some serious ST
night delta
@vestal wren the sims you did of our specs in s4, do they implement downtime parameters ?
strange python
What's sub simming my guy?
night delta
things like having to get away from boss, things like that
strange python
<@194804407706189824> the sims you did of our specs in s4, do they implement dow...
Patchwerk does not
vestal wren
^
night delta
cuz sin loses way less on being away from boss than other specs
vestal wren
the format is patchwerk, so it is high uptime single target
strange python
yeah it's just like pure potential
I'm not convinced sub loses any more - depending on when thoes things happen
strange python
I've always been a sin player - for over 15 years. And I found sub just played better on Kel'Thuzad so i could go get interupted, and get back to the goal at hand.
but sub dps outside of cds is pure garbo
and when you get "distracted" - your stuff is "recharging" you know
vestal wren
i mean sub is 60% dance uptime
so more than half of the fight you don't want to move a inch away from the boss
strange python
I think maybe my situation depended on the group dynamics, obviously - and our specific role. Every kill in my m SOD was purely prog so
well, past like boss 3-4
night delta
also, any boss that just goes away for a few moments to do a thing but doesn't go immune
sin just racks up value on there
vestal wren
season 4 won't have high tuned fights
strange python
As long as your cds are on recharge - you're just fine as sub with that downtime
vestal wren
so playing what you like is top prio
strange python
I won't deny that using flag as sub and getting an immediate interuption is definitely more punishing.
strange python
I might just feelycraft it in s4
strange python
I mean we kinda have the same issues as sin now though too
night delta
(any random-target mechanic that forces you out for example)
strange python
since venthyr is so far ahead -- i guess if you did play NF, you're less "prone" to that
night delta
agree
I think like fuu said, seems like even if sin is in theory worse and in practice still worse by a smaller margin, it won't be too impactful
given the way s4 seems to go tuning-wise
strange python
I'd probably consider myself fortunate in the sense that I enjoy both sub and sin equally -- so I enjoy playing both, equally.
vestal wren
since venthyr is so far ahead -- i guess if you did play NF, you're less "prone"...
NF def. is more relaxed
strange python
NF def. is more relaxed
100%
night delta
NF still playing dreamweaver, right ?
strange python
dw I think is "ahead" as long as you can get some number of uptime on the haste buff...I think it was close to 80%?
I've been playing dw - and it's not bad to time it honestly.
vestal wren
NF still playing dreamweaver, right ?
yep
strange python
At least on anything in SOF
strange python
yeah - mostly just saves me from having to get rezd' honestly
like after a group wipe hah
night delta
I miss my 9.1 survivability as Necrolord though
strange python
oh yeah SOD was no joke - as necro and with frost shards.
night delta
set shield + bubble + feint damned
strange python
Transfer some of that back into Torghast - cause I can't flawless like half of the new 16's
night delta
other party members drop to 30%, meanwhile my health bar doesn't budge
strange python
I gave up - just waiting till next patch I guess
viscid spear
viscid spear
strange python
hey fuu you around
strange python
yeah i dont wanna @ him so no worries
balmy condor
what's up
strange python
I was just gonna ask...
He was running some sims earlier and was talking about sub ST in next patch
I was wondering if he had a round-about figure of venthyr vs kyrian for them
balmy condor
yeah turns out that having a fuck ton of combo points is actually really good for sylv dagger cheesin
strange python
lol
strange python
yeah hrmm...wondering if i'll get the 311's
it's 10 mythic kills i think right to upgrade from H to M
night delta
I guess the scaling from ilvl on the proc got nuts
strange python
I bet I had like 7 heroic ones last patch so i'm guessing i can get them
balmy condor
I mean it's just regular scaling
double 311's are doing around 13% of kyrian subs dps
strange python
oh gosh
night delta
does 2 daggers still double proc damage AND proc rate ?
balmy condor
just damage
night delta
never had 2 but heard it worked like that
balmy condor
you heard wrong
strange python
i mean H is gonna be an upgrade coming from 278's (obviously)
night delta
ok
strange python
I might have to dust off kyrian - it's been a while
balmy condor
i mean H is gonna be an upgrade coming from 278's (obviously)
yeah main hand for sure, offhand you just replace your current normal sylv dagger with whatever higher sylv dagger
oak sky
In beta i think it doubled damage and proc rate
Like way back
Before 9.1 dropped
Thats probably where you heard
balmy condor
I don't think it ever did that when it was testable
strange python
Hey thanks Whispyr, really appreciate it man
balmy condor
but mightve been possible
balmy condor
Hey thanks Whispyr, really appreciate it man
np homie
limber lion
I don't think it did either
night delta
I remember several sources saying that around ptr yeah
balmy condor
there were definitely copium fueled talks about the daggers proccing independently
oak sky
But anyways thats definitely when it got talked about
balmy condor
and we had to shut that down
night delta
never bothered to look if it changed, and I don't think there was a blue post about them either
balmy condor
constantly
oak sky
And it was definitely never a thing on live
oak sky
Still better than an average 311 dagger
balmy condor
yeah
just pathetic in comparison
sin gets literally less than half the benefit of the effect
from slightly over 3k dps on sub to slightly under 1.5k for sin
you still want to wear them obviously
but like
night delta
I like to have a positive outlook on life, and 1,5k dps from a weapon proc is still great
if it's to be disappointed, I'd rather not compare at all
balmy condor
you can do that too I guess
oak sky
I fuck with the dagger heavily
Honestly fuck dance they shouldve put banshees blight at the end of the sub portion of the class tree
night delta
if the hunters get their wailing arrows
oak sky
Not actually though dance is cool
night delta
we deserve our banshee's blight damnit
fleet whale
Wailing arrow shouldn't be a hunter talent tbh
it's not worthy enough to be a talent imo
night delta
I mean, neither is banshee's blight, but they still got it
fleet whale
There are better things for blizz to bring back as a talent
grizzled jay
still wish Wound Poison did the same damage as DP so you could choose between DoT or Healing Reduction.
ebon notch
when would you ever choose wound poison?
sanguine?
just dont tank mobs in sanguine ezpz more effective than wound poison
grizzled jay
because there's a new expansion coming out and a troublesome mob could heal.
all the other MS classes don't have to sacrifice dps to apply MS.
oak sky
We would sacrifice dps by not having the dot
It definitely seems more likely that we can kick or stunlock a heal than that we could use wound poison effectively in s dungeon
grizzled jay
that's fine, but it's about the fact we're the only class that has to give up dps for MS. relic of the past. don't even use it in PvP anymore.
seems weird to argue against making Wound Poison better lmao
oak sky
I guess they could just add the wound effect to deadly or instant poison if they wanted to
That would be how to make it not a dps loss
grizzled jay
it can be a minor dps loss. it's currently at like 2.25% AP
IP is 6.3% and DP is 6.3% dot with 4.5% re-application
that's a big dps loss rn
no reason it can't be 4.5% or something
oak sky
But also if its never worth going wound poison just because of the fact that there isnt enough healing that can be reduced in pve then thats not really a wound poison problem
Like all expansion there was 1 case where healing reduction mattered and it got removed from the game
grizzled jay
its fine if there isn't a use case right now. but this future-proofs the ability.
oak sky
I find it very unlikely that a key has a heal mechanic like that, and in raid 9/10 times another class can fill the role/ you would probably just be able to put up wound just for a heal
So then the problem is mostly pvp related right?
Probably mostly because of hemoplague i guess?
ebon lichen
during m+ single target, is opener same as raid talents opener since we take subterfuge > master assassin? Im struggling to keep SnD up over bleeds especially when i vendetta
or does envenom to keep SnD up take priority over refreshing bleeds?
oak sky
In st you want to garrote first, then snd if its down, if not you build to rupture with ambush, then you would rip your normal rotation
ebon lichen
ambush not mutilate? thought it was better to mut due to chance for 4 total cp from crits?
balmy condor
Yeah in subterfuge setups ambush is a very small gain
thin trout
do we have any sims based on the information we have atm about seaon 4?
oak sky
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
oak sky
Wip assassination
Doesnt show every trinket or anything but should be a good idea of stuff to look for
oak sky
Yo dont shoot the messenger
jaunty crystal
over my dead body
vestal wren
Doesnt show every trinket or anything but should be a good idea of stuff to look...
it does show every trinket in the trinket sim 😉
jaunty crystal
that trinket doesn't exist
oak sky
it does show every trinket in the trinket sim 😉
Mbmb i just looked at the gear tab :)
vestal wren
i did post this yesterday already because i think the trinkets that sim high are interessting
jaunty crystal
eye and fusion combo nice. double non use 
jaunty crystal
we have return to kara
vestal wren
Isnt eoc from legion timewalking fuu
no
seson 4 will have upper/lower kara as core dungeons
oak sky
Yep
Should kill guardian much sooner and its probably better than fcm this time around anyway
night delta
Should kill guardian much sooner and its probably better than fcm this time arou...
I now just realized that I will probably buy 2 sylvanas daggers but won't need to buy the fusion amp, and now I don't know what I'm gonna buy with my 3rd dinar
oak sky
Transmog, ocular gland, something like that
night delta
ocular gland is so commonplace though
buying it would be a waste
it consistently dropped at least 1 time per eye kill
limber lion
Probs still fusion amp
viscid spear
Luckier than I was then
night delta
oh btw
limber lion
It'll take a few months before you get your third token
night delta
anyone knows if skips will still work ?
cuz I don't wanna wait 12 WEEKS to start rushing KT
oak sky
Cant see why they wouldnt, its mythic fated but that should probably still count as a mythic instance
night delta
wait, fated only functions in Mythic ?
night delta
I was confused for a second
copper hazel
i would hope they allow the skips, that 12 week point would be getting close to the season ending anyway
if blizz plans to launch DF in Nov/Dec
then again, you need to kill fated bosses for the currency
so skipping them is probably not advised
night delta
If we go by the latest communication, dinar 3 will be at 45 bosses, so during week 5
if we clear each week
so after that, I might wanna skip at least in some difficulties
copper hazel
after that, we log off and dont log back in till pre-patch 
fierce hill
If those fated raids are not a faceroll no lower raid guild will clear all of the bosses anyway so skips if already farmed should stay.
strange python
What ilvl do the non-fated raids drop, do we know that?
slow needle
What ilvl do the non-fated raids drop, do we know that?
The same as today. If it ain't fated it ain't changing.
strange python
gotcha
gusty mirage
Transmog, ocular gland, something like that
You won’t play gland
Trust me on this
Well you could, but 1) why would you waste a dinar on something off the 2nd boss in sanctum and 2) there’s a good chunk of other options than gland
strange python
Sometimes that gland bites you pretty bad too
One of the things that made it so good for us - was probably the frost shard shield
Sims be damned - talking like actual play you know what i mean
gusty mirage
I mean we sorted through logs, it very rarely gave you the negative unless your healers hated you
But still
strange python
Yeah but think about how much shield we had from frost shards
gusty mirage
You could just play elegy and spread the love to other people
strange python
I know I was like indestructable
gusty mirage
Yeah man
That shield was insane
Big raid wide damage? Just feint
It was like having dark pact lol
strange python
I think I was wearing it into SOTFO and it started getting me on some fights.
yeah it was hah
limber lion
Sometimes that gland bites you pretty bad too
To be fair the Ocular Gland was really good on a lot of specs, regardless of whether they played frost or not
strange python
yeah for sure
limber lion
You very, very, very rarely drop below 50% hp and you pretty much never stay below 50% for longer than a few seconds
strange python
were we the only class/spec that played frost
limber lion
if you dip below 50%, you have all the healers targetting you and spamming you with heals
strange python
i think maybe there was a dh build that played it
limber lion
DH did yeah
strange python
yeah healers tryina gib dem meters
I think I had to run sof like 2/2/9 with a completley undergeared paladin healer to parse > 95's on my priest
That's the one thing i hate about healing - everyone wants to overheal everything
And for whatever reason, healers are super popular now
gusty mirage
My whole thing about gland/elegy is we’re already in DR on secondaries now and they’re off early enough bosses where buying them with a dinar is kinda sus
strange python
oh yeah - my sims are so janky...like sometimes vers/mastery sims better than crit/haste cause of dr i'm assuming
strange python
Like I was farming the crit/haste boots - come to realize the crit/vers ones were just better so
or maybe it was crit/mastery
limber lion
<@165215952479322112> hateful chain gang?
Eye of Command 
gusty mirage
TRUE
strange python
so CN is gonna be fated first
limber lion
gotta get it from the vault first though which is not gonna happen
gusty mirage
Yeah, gonna weird for me. I never made it past council lol
strange python
on heroic?
limber lion
mythic
strange python
gotcha
limber lion
Yeah, gonna weird for me. I never made it past council lol
yeah, but now you're a CE gamer
strange python
I liked CN honestly
limber lion
strange python
coulda just been because the xpac was new and people were playing
gusty mirage
yeah, but now you're a CE gamer
I loved CN
I did not love council on any difficulty 
limber lion
CN was good, minus Council
gusty mirage
Lmaoooo
strange python
council was the NSF fight right
gusty mirage
I wonder if SLG would’ve been better if it wasn’t so buggy
strange python
I just remember one order really f'd us up
limber lion
probably, they also tuned it super high because it was undertuned for so long
strange python
ngl, any fight where i gotta put something on focus and interupt - annoys the sh*t outta me
limber lion
they cranked the boss up the last week before release
it was crazy
from the easiest boss to the hardest in one patch
strange python
like it's not hard, just annoying
gusty mirage
CN also felt really cool
gusty mirage
It nailed the atmosphere they went for really well
balmy condor
CN also felt really cool
What about dn
gusty mirage
What about dn
Already in my mouth buddy
balmy condor
Nice
strange python
Well I innately hate shiny things - like Kyrian and SOTFO so
strange python
wait SLG was right before sire right - what was buggy about it?
strange python
or was it just buggy on mythic
spice spire
Super buggy on mythic
strange python
ahh ok - yeah never did it on mythic
limber lion
it had a lot of bugs, like Wicked Blades hitting multiple times, Wicked Blades sometimes just flying off to random directions or spinning around your character
there was a lot
spice spire
Afaik heroic and normal were fine
strange python
lol that may explain a lot then
bleak sky
dpsing slg 
strange python
never knew it was bugged - just thought people sucked
gusty mirage
now you just skip every single trash pack
Sepulcher has an obscene amount of trash and I remember the trash pack before xymox being harder than xymox
bleak sky
YEP
strange python
I think as far as "annoying mechanics" go - CN and SOD were fine. I think sotfo is like over the top on some stuff.
gusty mirage
by sepulcher I take it you mean sanctum
I mean sepulcher. But sanctum was awful too
strange python
I think I joined 9 groups this week just to kill heroic rygelon...and probably spent close to 10 hours in there.
Meanwhile, week 3, was pugging it, no discord no wipes, 11/11h
limber lion
CN's trash was good because it was mandatory for the most parts
you had to kill trash to open up doors
viscid spear
dpsing slg <:PainsChamp:585828982004514825>
Actually doing SLG 
limber lion
and because it was mandatory, there wasn't too too much of it
but in Sepulcher nothing is mandatory, so you just skip everything
which is super duper boring and pointless
bleak sky
Actually doing SLG <:weirdchamp:654396865139441667>
thankfully (?) my guild disbanded on SLG]
limber lion
the trash count is inflated so high
gusty mirage
Yeah it was there to waste your time
bleak sky
only wasted 300 ish pulls on SLG 
gusty mirage
And there’s so much
If the strat is “soulstone the healer and escort them to the boss” for trash
You went a bit overboard
limber lion
there's like 3 mandatory trash packs you had to kill in Sepulcher
viscid spear
thankfully (?) my guild disbanded on SLG]
Like while you were trying to progress or you just killed Sludge and decided not to even try SLG? 
limber lion
Pantheon, Skolex and Lords
bleak sky
Like while you were trying to progress or you just killed Sludge and decided not...
killed sludge, did 300 odd pulls on slg and disbanded
limber lion
took us 450 pulls to down it with my guild
strange python
What's our io (raiding) tooltip gonna look like for next season lol...
gusty mirage
What's our io (raiding) tooltip gonna look like for next season lol...
Hopefully RIO figures out how to rotate fated raid prog on the tooltip
strange python
yeah
gusty mirage
Because otherwise it’s going to be a bit messy
limber lion
gonna take up the entire screen
strange python
So there will be no RWF then next tier? or will ther ebe
viscid spear
killed sludge, did 300 odd pulls on slg and disbanded
Alliance guild got AotC for Sanctum, attempted Mythic Tarra once, got rekt, decided we would just worry about AotC from now on. 
strange python
I honestly don't mind being in an aotc guild and getting like first 4-6 mythic
gusty mirage
No waiting for mythic unlock
viscid spear
[Realm First! Rehashed Content]!
strange python
pushing for 10/10m sod was so fun but - it takes a lot out of you
night delta
I honestly don't mind being in an aotc guild and getting like first 4-6 mythic
that's basically what I do with my guild each season
and it's a bop
viscid spear
I honestly don't mind being in an aotc guild and getting like first 4-6 mythic
What about one that does worse on Mythic in each subsequent tier?
strange python
I pushed for CE in nya and sod - and came up one boss short both times so
oh god yeah i feel ya on that Ash
I mean if everyone's having fun
doing worse in SOTFO versus SOD though - i mean SOTFO is just kinda annoying
and you can get so close to BIS just from 278's in the vault anyway
like doing your 10 (or is it 8 now) +15's each week is pretty rewarding, long-term throughout the tier.
viscid spear
I mean if everyone's having fun
What if it leads to one particular big-headed raider with an inflated sense of self-worth getting uppity and leaving, then proceeding to /spit on anyone he sees with that guild name?
strange python
What if it leads to one particular big-headed raider with an inflated sense of s...
lol - it happens.
limber lion
and you can get *so close* to BIS just from 278's in the vault anyway
Well not really considering there's 9 items that are 285 ilvl
night delta
What if it leads to one particular big-headed raider with an inflated sense of s...
bollocks, we can't /spit anymore
bleak sky
What if it leads to one particular big-headed raider with an inflated sense of s...
roleplayers 
viscid spear
Or a female raider also has an inflated sense of self-worth because her husband and his friend play a very good warrior dps and HPriest respectively and she pisses off the off-tank enough that he leaves along with 3 other players?
bleak sky
bollocks, we can't /spit anymore
./e spits on Ashkitten
viscid spear
/e enjoys it.
night delta
but that's cheating
strange python
I mean I've seen just about every type of dysfunction when it comes to a raiding guild in existence.
Too toxic, too anti-toxic, treating your 3/11M team like you're a RWF and they should be too, etc etc
viscid spear
Or another guild where a 40-something mother is the GL and her officers are 20-somethings that think they're stalwart protectors and don't let you play what you want? 
gusty mirage
but that's cheating
And a great way to get chat banned
I have friends that ate 48 hour chat bans for it lmao
strange python
Yeah I mean we all gotta find that place where we fit in. We dislike guilds for different reasons. As long as you're having fun and are ok with the negatives (which there always will be some negatives) - then roll with it. Otherwise, find a new home where the negatives are livable for you.
strange python
I mean /spit'ing on someone shouldn't be anymore harassment than /hug'ing someone that didn't want to be hugged.
viscid spear
And a great way to get chat banned
Saw a guy right before they implemented the removal of /spit.
He was a Sub Rogue that hung out in Stormwind, was in a guild called <The Subtle Spitter>, and had the emote bound to Shadowstep. Then he just SS'd random people.
strange python
or pointed at that didn't wanna be...etc
gusty mirage
Saw a guy right before they implemented the removal of /spit.
He was a Sub Rogue...
Damn. Committed to it
strange python
I mean I don't really care that they removed /spit - the # of times i've spit on someone is probably pretty low
I'd rather kidney shot/fire eater's vial em anyway
viscid spear
I swear this was like a week before they removed it, I like to think he single-handedly caused it.
gusty mirage
It was probably all the pvp they forced on everyone in season 1
I used to get spit on constantly in pvp
And messaged and called gamer words
strange python
I mean we're playing a game where we can go up behind someone, stick our daggers into their backs, knock them unconscious for 6 seconds while we slice them to death...
gusty mirage
Like it’s 1800 mmr in 2s bro it’s not that serious
strange python
but we can't /spit lol
gusty mirage
Pvpers are an odd breed
It’s like all the 12 year olds who banged our moms on call of duty decided to play wow, and queue specifically arena
strange python
I honestly really only enjoy battleground pvp -- (or world) -- but not being able to blacklist a few random bgs...ruins it for me...cause i hate some of the maps.
namely temple and mines hah
gusty mirage
namely temple and mines hah
I knew it
strange python
i would queue ab/wsg, and the other two flag/whatever maps all day
gusty mirage
Idk anyone who enjoys temple of kotamagu
viscid spear
I miss the last season in BfA, where a HPally could stack the CDR corruption amd spam Holy Shocks
gusty mirage
The dink dink map?
night delta
Idk anyone who enjoys temple of kotamagu
I do, but mostly because I'm a weirdo
strange python
yea
night delta
I like that brawl feeling
viscid spear
You don’t enjoy dinking?
He enjoys dunking
On their moms
strange python
i mean i dont mind like one shotting someone in temple at will...but even if you do that, you know your team is A) not gonna get the orb back and B) you're just gonna die anywya
gusty mirage
He enjoys dunking
On their moms
viscid spear
Only BG I don't like is Kotmogu. Mostly because I pvped as a Healer and the orb stacks made you pointless.
bleak sky
You don’t enjoy dinking?
I'll dink you
gusty mirage
I'll dink you
Do it
ebon notch
Idk anyone who enjoys temple of kotamagu
That map bangs
Run in and oneshot like 3 orb carriers
mossy blade
ive mained rogue classic-wotlk and am wondering whether based on current talents, assa might see a slight return to the playstyle back then and actually be viable for high m+ or does it continue to be more of a ST focused spec?
strange python
I think tuning is really gonna determine that honestly.
grizzled jay
How good Sin is in M+ depends on damage of SoB + Carnage as well as how slow or fast the dungeons are with regards to Carnage's cd.
mossy blade
fair, figured it might be too earl anyways. lets see
thin ingot
im more pissed about the name bans going on, literally got a month for kumcommander
balmy crane
im more pissed about the name bans going on, literally got a month for kumcomman...
"fuck around and find out"?
grim canopy
im more pissed about the name bans going on, literally got a month for kumcomman...
well at least u got banned during expansion drought gap
imagine getting banned on a expansion launch for a month....oof
vestal wren
i wonder how long he had the name
gusty mirage
yeah I wonder if he was forced to name change before
because my druid's name got changed w/ no ban
and it was probably as grotesque lol
storm onyx
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
viscid spear
Had an alt rogue named Knifeywifey, got her to 15, did a dungeon, GM contacted me that I was flagged for a rename.
strange python
wut
why
My buddy's rogue was Nerdydigger back in the day - he got flagged. For obvious reasons.
viscid spear
It was alright, probably domestic violence reference. Must've been someone in the dungeon reporting it.
Changed it to Pyrethrin since it was a Sin Rogue, now it's Shadekitten.
night delta
I've been able to nab the nick "Valeera" way back then when I created my character in TBC (the wow comics had just started to come out)
but I stopped playing at the end of cata and came back in BfA, my nickname got destroyed 😦
copper hazel
did blizz auto delete your name or was it a GM? A guy in my guild just tried asking in a ticket to a GM about getting a name on his server that hasnt been active for a long time. The GM told him that it isnt possible, theres some sort of auto system in place to do it
gusty mirage
probably an inactivity thing
they autoflag names for change to free them up for people if you haven't logged on in like 2 expacs or some shit
copper hazel
yeh thats it i think
copper hazel
this was the GM response
told my guild mate to ask the GM how long before the name he wants is auto flagged but he closed the ticket already
gusty mirage
"we removed the tools that allowed us to free up these names"
they decided to roll back additional functionality for their GM systems for no fucking reason?
copper hazel
yeh i said that to him too, i was like, no shot they got rid of the tools if they can change offensive names etc
its more likely a case of "we wont let you just request a name if you think its inactive, thats up to us to decide" as its no longer nice blizz, its corporate blizz
gusty mirage
yuppers
I mean I can see why, it's kinda annoying to have to deal with "PLS GIVE ME THIS NAME" tickets
which they probably got tens of thousands of
copper hazel
yeh exactly
it wont be that long before blizz probably replaces human GMs entirely and uses an AI system
pseudo nimbus
hi, do I use MfD before pull to get SnD or during pulling after I use Flag to get the most stacks possible?
oak sky
During flag
night delta
hi, do I use MfD before pull to get SnD or during pulling after I use Flag to ge...
Our raid team does /pull 30, therefore I can reliably setup a SnD before pull and extend it just at the start and get my MfD during flag, but that's pretty rare among guilds, so unless you are in the same situation as me, like Agreon said
forest notch
just confirming as the talents above are different. If I have 4 piece should I switch to 2 2 2 0 0 2 3 ?
gusty mirage
what covenant are you playing
forest notch
I want to play Asassin for ST so im Venth
balmy condor
then don't switch
grizzled jay
Niksi is playing Sin rn in AWC
@balmy condor generally how far behind Flag is Sepsis and/or ER
grizzled jay
just wondered.
ebon notch
Fae vs Venthyr is like 500-700 dps?
uh are you talking about AWC @grizzled jay
cause if you are you only ever play sepsis
gusty mirage
uh are you talking about AWC <@109377329444159488>
imagine coming into a conversation 10 minutes later
and pretending you're contributing
gusty mirage
cause if you are you only ever play sepsis
also
ebon notch
and if he isnt
gusty mirage
this is fucking wrong
ebon notch
then get me out
grizzled jay
uh are you talking about AWC <@109377329444159488>
no lol
ebon notch
for pvp??
gusty mirage
yes
ebon notch
depends on comp
grizzled jay
well he is Necro rn
gusty mirage
no
ebon notch
no?
gusty mirage
it doesn't depend on the comp
grizzled jay
you only go Fae if there's no dispel innit
ebon notch
i didnt want to contribute anyway
gusty mirage
necro = tankier = you play necro against good people
gusty mirage
does it
ebon notch
with the bug yeah
gusty mirage
oh okay
ebon notch
it double dips on vend
grizzled jay
oxi owning with facts and logic
ebon notch
its the server
ebon notch
he was testing it cause someone found it by accident
if you macro sepsis and vendetta together
gusty mirage
okay
ebon notch
it double dips on the 4pc
ebon notch
and does all of sepsis in 2.5s
ebon notch
o how much slower are the dots
gusty mirage
neglecting that the issue was sepsis
not the 4pc
but yeah
assa plays necro unless they're trying to cheese out a win against a team with no dispels
grizzled jay
yeah it would insta kill people on patch launch right?
they had to hotfix nerf it lol
gusty mirage
at a high enough mmr you run into holy priest and holy priest... and holy priest
which can dispel sepsis
which gets INSTA dispelled now
gusty mirage
yeah it would insta kill people on patch launch right?
it lasted like a month
I was killing rshams through ascendancy, link, and earthen wall
grizzled jay
yeah it was nutso
ebon notch
holy fuck it was so annoying
grizzled jay
lol
gusty mirage
they just ray of hope guardian
ebon notch
theyre so strong
grizzled jay
Niksi isn't playing that well ngl
is he a Sin otp for pvp
feel like sub or outlaw better for this comp
ebon notch
@gusty mirage teach me pvp
hollow river
assa plays necro unless they're trying to cheese out a win against a team with n...
not really
gusty mirage
<@192059095279337473> teach me pvp
- Press N
- Select Outlaw or Subtlety
- Press Activate
- Find a Mage & Holy Priest
- Faceroll to 2400
hollow river
even after nerfs? idk
gusty mirage
hold up, give me about 10s
I'll get it from my buddies that play like 30 games a day
hollow river
been much less rmp on the ladder lately than there was before
gusty mirage
the ladder's like all rmp & melee cleaves
hollow river
much more dk+lock, turbo, ret war, dh boomie
ebon notch
i thought destro ST got buffed
hollow river
before the nerfs/buffs all it was was melee cleaves+rmp
gusty mirage
hollow river
it's definitely not now
yeah
what he said
dk+lock wrecks rmp rn
it's insanely strong
gusty mirage
cause DK doesn't die to the mage
hollow river
nope lol
gusty mirage
DK + DH is obscene against wizard cleaves
hollow river
dk lock just rotates CDs instead of going all in on go's
gusty mirage
yeah cause slappy hands does stupid damage
hollow river
lock will tyrant, get some defensives from the enemy team
gusty mirage
lock doesn't need to press shit
hollow river
then DK will abom
hollow river
yeah
so there's no way to play scripted defensively against it
they're just constantly rotating CDs keeping you on the backfoot
hollow river
pretty gnarly
hollow river
dude didn't even rupture me
gusty mirage
the 4pc nerf didn't fix shit
and if anything it made it easier for non-fae players to keep pressure
hollow river
because you can outplay it tbh
gusty mirage
cause they don't have to reapply their bleeds as often lol
hollow river
just have to be good
gusty mirage
ehhh
just nerf the conduit in pvp by 50% or some shit
they deleted echoing reprimand for the same shit
hollow river
true
strange python
the NF conduit?
seems like every class has some immunity or something for the stupid thing anyway
I think I hate tyranical week honestly
bleak sky
Tyra week easy week
gusty mirage
sin rogue > ww monk for raid
ww > sin for m+
bleak sky
Yes
gusty mirage
sin used to be low apm before the tier set
tier set speeds things up quite a bit
increases the apm to like mid tier-ish
bleak sky
Still not an outlaw/fury or whatever
gusty mirage
it's not as fast as the 2 highest apm specs?
bleak sky
Won't break your wrists
gusty mirage
bleak sky
Thanks
viral plume
Yeah ww monk and rogue is 2 classes not at 60+ yet but for this expac (but want long term) and also anti-gank class
gusty mirage
in terms of anti-ganking, ngl I don't ever level with warmode on
bleak sky
minalba why do you let me be mean to you?
Tonight I'm just chillin
thin ingot
it always takes me 5x the time to level during expansion releases cause i spend most of my time ganking instead of questing 
strange python
ugh
the quality of people in current 20's is just so depressing
i'm just done til next season i think
I can't afford the engi brezes
I think I've used 7 today
viral plume
So for until DF which is safe spot atm WW monk or Assassin rogue for low apm (have other low apm classes but turn off for me)
strange python
i mean rogue innately has 1 sec gcd right? does ww monk?
I've always found the 1.5 sec gcd classes slower "feeling"
Frost mage is like the easiest if you have like wrist/finger issues honestly
literally can play them at like 95% efficiency without a single weakaura or anything
viral plume
But want self heals (survival)
strange python
just play BM and be over it
thin ingot
bm is pretty chill, you can literally eat a sandwich while pushing 20s
strange python
15% leech versus a talent that gives assassin 12%
BM is like the totally chill, do nothing but keep up barbed shot and beast cleave class
That's the only intricate part of BM - is keeping up barbed shot at 3 stacks.
viral plume
Have 60 BM but find it boring
strange python
and make the proper weakaura and it's just cake
lol yeah taht it is
you gotta pick man - like assassin and ww are both good choices
i've never played ww
but ww pumps in keys hardcore
compared to sin
strange python
you're more likely to play what you enjoy
strange python
hve you played them both?
gusty mirage
yes
strange python
like do any "speak to you"
strange python
talking to the op haha
gusty mirage
lol
strange python
I love my mage, i love my priest, i love my shaman but
gusty mirage
yeah @viral plume with the xp buff level both and see what you like more
viral plume
yeah <@130507360174080000> with the xp buff level both and see what you like mor...
i just want something to play until DF release but also easiest low apm
gusty mirage
I mean I'd argue right now with the way the 4pc works, assassination is not an easy spec to play
esp if you're not comfortable on the spec
strange python
I honestly don't think sin is anywhere near the "easiest" despite its apm, unfortunately
gusty mirage
so I'd suggest ww monk probably
strange python
fmage and bm is just the easiest
gusty mirage
ww is a lot more straight forward, just don't press the same ability 2 times in a row
strange python
but yeah ww maybe - i've never tried a monk so
gusty mirage
and in aoe it's even easier if you're playing necrolord
viral plume
Oh
gusty mirage
and monk is fun af
strange python
see that's the other thing - is that the covenant choice also (TO ME) greatly complicates sin as well.
gusty mirage
they call it "green rogue" for a reason
strange python
Venthyr is no jojke to get right, honestly.
NF is super easy - necro is super easy
try monk and see man (if you've already tried sin rogue)
tawdry portal
Question: In aoe situations as necro sin, where should I be using my shiv to get most of the 2piece? Use after applying Rupts and CT, or just use off CD with CT while applying the rest?
thin ingot
if you play rogue
strange python
Just follow the icy veins "easy mode" guide (that's what i do to try stuff out)
strange python
Question: In aoe situations as necro sin, where should I be using my shiv to get...
There's probably a mathematical answer, but I'd Garrote, G, G, G...CT, send your SBS's, CT, and shiv it up
It probably differs between like 4 and 10 targets too you know but
what you gonna do
If you have a priority target, it becomes a bit more obvious (like Theater, that 3 pack into the big guy with the banner) etc.
in like Gambit - honestly, not sure it matters much, or if anyone does it properly
tawdry portal
ok, so prob worth bleeding everything up before sending shiv. I've been GGG CT into shiv SBS
strange python
I'm sure one of the "main dudes" knows the mathematical answer honestly
I just read questions and then tend to think out loud
and i'm sure what you're doing is fine
slow marsh
69
strange python
toxic
spice spire
ok, so prob worth bleeding everything up before sending shiv. I've been GGG CT i...
That opener works
Getting shiv on is important to get another round ASAP.
Getting bleeds up good
woeful socket
for mythic jailer do you guys hold cds until the first blood soaks?
woeful socket
do you cloak to stay in?
jaunty crystal
Send everything on your next vendetta/flag window
Ye a lot of people cloak on pull. Some save it for the line of sight mc cast too.
pure mauve
Hi, why in general raid talen tree we dont pick tiny toxic blade?
oak sky
Its bad
Shiv is a button that doesnt do much damage that we press every 25s so the 500% increase isnt really that insane
Double poisons from dragon tempered blades is very strong by comparison
pure mauve
Ohh didnt know hehe
pulsar apex
Heya. If I’m understanding right. With 4 set when vendetta… I’m refreshing bleeds with the new pandemic timers?
Before Ven drops.
So at > 3.6 and 2.7
Oh wait. No.
I just do the “vendetta ending rotation above”.
pulsar apex
An the man himself
balmy condor
The bottom is as it finishes
So at <=3 seconds
Should be looking to refresh stuff to overhang it
pulsar apex
Gotcha
viscid spear
Goal is to refresh as big bleeds as you can just before Vend ends
pulsar apex
Ok imma practice.
viscid spear
And let those bleeds naturally time out after Vend before reapplying
pulsar apex
Those overhanging bleed will be shorter because they started in Ven?
balmy condor
Yes
viscid spear
Yes
pulsar apex
Why we let them drop?
viscid spear
But they're also juicier
balmy condor
Why we let them drop?
Because it’s more dps
The 4 set means any bleed applied during vendetta ticks twice as fast, with half the duration
So it’s the same damage, but in half the time
The key thing is “APPLIED”
When vendetta drops
The bleeds are still faster
Until that bleed expires or is refreshed
Refreshing would be back to the regular speed
pulsar apex
Ohhhh
So pandemic refresh is a DPS loss becuase its not letting the Ven bleed run its course
balmy condor
Correct
viscid spear
Also make sure you're good on SnD before you launch into the Vendetta bleed carousel since you're not going to be using Envenom since you'll be spamming bleeds
pulsar apex
Starting to get this
pulsar apex
So you need that Snd window
balmy condor
You can get 1 envenom in during vend usually
But should try to have at least 25ish+ seconds on it
viscid spear
Priority is juicy bleeds
balmy condor
Usually it’s not really an issue
pulsar apex
Well I’m returning player and dinged 60 last week. So all is new to me.
This is all so helpful thank you
viscid spear
Vendetta only affects one target so that means the faster bleeds only affect that target, so make sure you're good to sit on the target for the duration of Vendetta
balmy condor
Np
pulsar apex
Yes I often wonder where my Ven has gone.
balmy condor
Feel free to ping if you want clarification on a post I’ve made as well
pulsar apex
And remember it’s a debuff.
balmy condor
I don’t bite :P
pulsar apex
The 2 set is a debuff aura aoe?
viscid spear
The 2 set is a debuff aura aoe?
Shiv causes everyone around your target to take more damage from your bleeds and poisons
That's why in the opener you saw above you hit Shiv after you Vendetta, so you can immediately buff the DoTs you just supercharged, lol
balmy condor
The 2 set is a debuff aura aoe?
Yuh
Like ash mentioned, it’s based on your target
And then everything around it
Usually can just ignore it completely
Keep slamming shiv on cooldown
And the 2 set just makes it stronger
Easy peasy
viscid spear
Shiv's CD works where you Shiv between Vendetta windows and just make sure it's back up for Vendetta
Assuming Venthyr with Duskwalker ofc
soft shale
usually it is fine it is only where you go sicko mode and get fairies/pi too much that dusk krangles shiv cd a bit
i wonder if passasin will do another of those big boi 80 buffs runs
vast loom
i think in full uptime fights shiv on CD is the play after opener, atleast thats what cev said a month or 2 ago
limber lion
As long as you send Shiv on CD, it'll line up pretty well for every other Vendetta almost automatically.
Like said, sometimes holding is beneficial but that's dependent on the encounter. Sending on cd is the safe play generally. 
balmy condor
<:Susge:924472182392897536>
Yes child?
ebon notch
can i ping you for clarification on a post you've made
unreal coyote
!guide
prisma monolithBOT
Assassination Guides:
Wowhead: https://www.wowhead.com/assassination-rogue-guide
IV: https://www.icy-veins.com/wow/assassination-rogue-pve-dps-guide
Method: https://www.method.gg/guides/assassination-rogue
balmy condor
can i ping you for clarification on a post you've made
No, specifically you can’t
strange python
What's the opener look like? Is it mutilate > mutilate/snd > garrote?
viscid spear
What's the opener look like? Is it mutilate > mutilate/snd > garrote?
Mut > SnD always to get it going
strange python
That's as venthyr with master assassin
viscid spear
Long way:
Mut - SnD - Mut - Gar - Flag - Rupt - MfD - CT - Vend - Shiv - Vanish -Mut
strange python
Ah perfect ty
thorn lynx
!fuu
prisma monolithBOT
Fuus Shadowlands evaluation Spreadsheet: http://tiny.cc/uxr1tz
strange python
oak sky
Vendetta is propaganda
hollow wraith
curious I may have missed it somewhere and I assume no, but does vendetta 4pc have any affect on the permanent dot from bonespike?
strange python
Yeah it makes it tick faster during vendetta's duration (from what i remember reading).
lunar sorrel
If I'm doing Venthyr in M+ would I use Nadja or Theo?
balmy condor
nadjia
marble hemlock
As much as you can, yes. Stuff like rupture or maintaining snd take priority, though
balmy condor
I don't like umbrella
and tea
you roll haste tea
and you basically got nadjia but worse
hollow wraith
turns back off after vendetta
ty ❤️
subtle tundra
you roll haste tea
??? This is assassination
Also, Nadja tends to proc all the time at the end of the pacl
Losing its value massively
balmy condor
??? This is assassination
I'm aware
balmy condor
but thrill seeker is actually just haste tea
balmy condor
whats your umbrella uptime varas
lunar sorrel
i dont like Sub playstyle at all lol, Ive been playing Assass since BC
balmy condor
you don't care about 80% of your soulbind
subtle tundra
Which is all of the power of nadja
balmy condor
interesting take
subtle tundra
And it does nothing
subtle tundra
And Theo has tea value all the timr
spice spire
Based
subtle tundra
both of them suck, go draven
Yes gaslight me more
limber lion
it's the same soulbind???