outlaw

[timid idol]

is this nsrt tumor

dont tell me

they did all this cancer

just so that you need addons anyway

so they didnt even nuke addons that play the game for you

so what was this whole thing about

why did they ruin the game if people still get addon for lura

[sand berry]

i'm afraid that is exactly what they did

[wind pond]

the second addon apocalypse will be much more serious

and will only fuck your UI 8 more times in the process

[worldly compass]

can't wait to rebuild my UI from scratch again

[cinder relic]

Because add-ons were significantly stronger before

Idt the goal was ever "no add-ons at all"

[fathom bramble]

the lura addon isn't even doing anything computationally

and computational addons were the target

good or bad

it's reading chat in an order and not even scanning buffs/debuffs

in a pre-purge world the symbols would be appearing automatically on your screen and telling you exactly which one is yours

[vivid vessel]

not true tho

[cinder relic]

Yeah I mean you can say it was a dumb idea to do this, which I'd disagree with but understand where ur coming from

[vivid vessel]

private aura

it wouldnt have been any different

[fathom bramble]

yeah they have other ways to force a mechanic to not interact with addons

and for this specific mechanic they could have just private aurad the entire boss

that's functionally what the addon purge is when it comes to boss casts

destroying everyones ui will always have been something that is separate from destroying boss WAs

[soft abyss]

what is the addong for feint etc in the middle of the screen ?

[timid idol]

but like

[fathom bramble]

like they could have chosen to only private or use hidden values on boss casts

[timid idol]

people still ask for an addon which is crazy

i thought the entire point of this

[fathom bramble]

but they wanted to kill computational addons everywhere

[timid idol]

was that there would be no instance anymore

were somone would ask for an addon

[fathom bramble]

including in your ui

[timid idol]

we fucked classes so that there will never ever be an instance like this again

no?

why are classes shittier now if people still ask for an addon

[wind pond]

just add it to your cdm

[fathom bramble]

unfortunately this is probably impossible especially if they design mechanics that demand a 3rd party solution like lura

[sacred rune]

Think its worth mentioning, in the addon discussion,that many things done with addons right now are also something blizz did not want

[timid idol]

well

ideally people just

do the toddler mechanic themselves

i heavily doubt remembering 5 symbols is that hard

[soft abyss]

I want it on top of my char like zac

[fathom bramble]

I was not aware people were using the addon in heroic

in mythic the addon is required

or some other 3rd party information sharing method

[wind pond]

so add it to your cdm and move it there

[timid idol]

mythic also does it more times i think

[soft abyss]

Bro I don't want my whole bar there what is your issue ?

[sacred rune]

I think addons are in a weird spot

[still matrix]

Sleight of Hand is ass for outlaw

[sacred rune]

it is why people ask the question

they are still doing things that are likely not wanted by the dev team

[still matrix]

for the game

[sacred rune]

but we don't know exactly which ones they are as there is no set goal

[fathom bramble]

for sure

and if they didn't design lura like this we would have had no addons this tier

[sacred rune]

the wfr would be extremely diffrent

[fathom bramble]

maybe the kick addon still but you barely even need that

[sacred rune]

without any addon help at all

[timid idol]

yea

im not bothering with this

disgusting company tbh

fuck this aotc

i could stomach just getting angry at average low iq players

if it meant the game didnt get fucked over for it

but now we have a shittier game and the same exact mechanics that require addons because people cannot do toddler memory game

[cinder relic]

I don't think the goal was ever "delete add-ons from the game"

It was "make add-ons worse"

[nova sinew]

the addon display is mainly for mythic where you can only see the symbols in your reality

[cinder relic]

^

We killed heroic the week it came out by just, using our eyes

The add on didn't exist initially lol

[sacred rune]

I think a reason thats not stated a lot was performance

[fathom bramble]

my game definitely runs better now

[nova sinew]

ironically the fights that were the most fun to me (kyveza, nexus king, dimmy) werent generally addon fights and the fights this expansion had the same addon usage but just were significantly less fun

[fathom bramble]

too many WAs in the common packs were waaay too heavy

[timid idol]

sure but i was under the impression that i would be able to play the game without people jumping into my raid and asking for this nsrt shit or else they get mad

thats why everyone accepted all these changes no?

otherwise just let wa show the icons above my head and let me play tww again

[sacred rune]

elvui before the change could have significant impact on performance

now its down to like 5 fps

[vivid vessel]

dont thuink anyone accepted these changes

[fathom bramble]

I've always avoided elvui for that reason

[timid idol]

yea true

[vivid vessel]

prety sure you would ask players most of them would prefer before

[fathom bramble]

just the simple WA packs had stuff that would lag you

[sacred rune]

which is overall very small compared to what it did before, so you would not notice a diffrence

weakauras also had a huuuge overhead

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[heady wraith]

thanks lol

[soft abyss]

zac what is the addon for feint in the middle of the screen ?

[sacred rune]

i remember mystler implemented trufigcd in weakauras

[soft abyss]

is it WA? or addon ?

[vivid vessel]

weak aura

[sacred rune]

and even tho he optimized the weakaura

[soft abyss]

Ah i thought someone said it can be done with addon

[sacred rune]

it had a roughly 3x cost compared to the native addon

[fathom bramble]

biggest problem with the addon purge is that it motivated them to do a class ability purge...

according to ion at least

[vivid vessel]

of course

any cdm addon

[sacred rune]

Think thats seperate

midnight just wanted to simplify the game

to give new players a easier time

[fathom bramble]

ion said they asked themselves if it was fair to ask players to track all this stuff without computational addons

and they looked at specs through that lense

I'm sure there was moree motivation than that

but it seems to at least have played a part

[sacred rune]

subtlety was collateral damage, given the limited time they have now with fast iteration cycles

so are other specs which now end up with worse results then before midnight

[sacred rune]

most of the things removed, i would argue, are not that

in fact, some things are still not trackable

which would benefit from it

e.g. one example, nimble flurry

you did not need to track anything for it, it still got removed and with it took away cleave and priority damage?

danse macabre

you did never track it, it still got simplified

[vivid vessel]

deserved tbh

[sacred rune]

and i can go on

[fathom bramble]

well I'm not sure they actually took into account whether players were tracking it or not

but most things they simplified were simplified in ways to reduce what you could track

[vivid vessel]

idk why the other 2 rogue specs just gained stuffs every tier that made them better in term of damage profile

[sacred rune]

what wasn't removed was

[vivid vessel]

and outlaw didnt

[sacred rune]

fazed

uneen blades

slice and dice

all things that could be simplified

[fathom bramble]

and everything outlaw lost was something with a complicated use condition

that could have used a computational WA

[vivid vessel]

idk crackshot wasnt

[sacred rune]

my point is

[vivid vessel]

uuh wasnt

[sacred rune]

if tracking was the main reason

[fathom bramble]

all of that is wrapped up in vanish having multiple use condition checks

[sacred rune]

i can't justify the majority of changes

if simplification was

i can

[vivid vessel]

wasnt it jhust

[sacred rune]

so for me, it makes more sense to argue around that

[vivid vessel]

what was it even

there was nothing

dont vanish with ks ready idk

i dont remember

[fathom bramble]

check KS not ready, check finish condition, check AR up

[sacred rune]

haha

[vivid vessel]

ok i mean

is that really

thats very basic stuffs lol

[fathom bramble]

yeah

so was RTB

[vivid vessel]

i mean rtb can be argued

[sacred rune]

to be fair, the rtb conditionals rly made it hard to play without wa

[vivid vessel]

you need to track 5 diff buffs

and there was the whole "dont get rerolled away" thing

[sacred rune]

so there is a good point around that one

most things subtlety lost was things that had impact on the rotation

its just passives now or entitely purged

so at least for subtlety gameplay depth was directly tackled and simplified or removed

[fathom bramble]

it just seems to me that most of that can be pinned on blizz being overly concerned with the amount you have to or can track with the addon adjustments

and obviously we got some changes that maybe don't fit the bill, but it's a new expansion with new changes regardless

not every change would be because of their addon purge

[sacred rune]

i don't know

the cloud cover rework added more things

[fathom bramble]

it's also like

their stated reason

[sacred rune]

like, i would say, its fair with rupture

[fathom bramble]

I wouldn't even have come to this conclusion if ion didn't say so

[sacred rune]

but then the majority of other spell changes, its just "remove gameplay impact"

it works with "there is nothing to track"

if you make something just a passive damage note that previousely does not

but if it wasn't tracked before, it wouldn't be with the change to addons

neverless, maybe it's diffrent for outlaw

don't want to generalize on one possible exception spec

[fathom bramble]

yeah I mean there's probably not much value in looking at overly specific examples that do or do not follow blizzards stated reasoning

when was the last time all their changes followed their own reasoning anyway?

[sacred rune]

you mean, like stating to keep the same flexibility for cooldowns in the subtlety post

[fathom bramble]

yeah

removing long arms because melee range has increased since they were implemented

melee range has always been 5yrds

[sacred rune]

think they mostly removed it

because it was too much effort to fix all interactions/spells

it is easier to just roll back

[timid idol]

either way

hopefuly next tier is more fun

they do same kinda matching/memory mechs like one armed bandit

but they purge addons so the community that could barely do it before

can fail it even harder now

idk man

[cinder relic]

They also said that they wanted more raid bosses to be tuned like gally

And then we got dimensus, and then lura

[fathom bramble]

I didn't know they said that lol

[cinder relic]

They also said that alleria was under tuned

[fathom bramble]

I would like more like gally

[cinder relic]

I'm fine with either way. I did like how even undermine felt

But I also really liked dimensus and lura

Loved lura prog

[fathom bramble]

lura was very fun

[cinder relic]

Crimson vial went so hard on that fight ngl

[fathom bramble]

maybe if dim was designed to support playing something other than a 90 second burst spec I would have enjoyed it more idk

the fight felt like it had nothing going on just waiting for my 90 second cds over and over

[cinder relic]

Also, after playing monk, holy fuck monk is squishy. Why does vivify heal me for 1 single crimson vial tick

[fathom bramble]

until we wipe to 1 mechanic in the last phase and go again

[cinder relic]

I was told rogue felt healing was bad

[fathom bramble]

there's a reason why I call us the 2nd squishiest melee

and it is because WW exists

and they have it significantly worse

[random stirrup]

dimensius the goat

[cinder relic]

That's valid

I liked p1 and p3

I also liked the spectacle of the fight in general

The flying was fun

P3 was super satisfying

[grim spear]

lura was way more fun than Dim
though we only just started day 1 on it

[cinder relic]

P1 pre nerf was legit so perfect for rogue. You could feint every instance of damage in p1

You were legit god

[fathom bramble]

true

[cinder relic]

After the nerf it wasn't scary but before nerfs p1 was legit healing prog

[fathom bramble]

the fight definitely looked cool

[cinder relic]

Spectacle mega counts. Look at denathrius

Coolest fight of all time

The mythic mirror phase

You go in the mirror

[grim spear]

Kind of regret never really getting to fight Denathrius
only got to briefly try him during the fated season

[fathom bramble]

that didn't feel all that spectacular to me but I didn't get to prog it so idk

[craggy barn]

was prety fun

was kinda annoying having a fist in ur face all of p1 tho

if we had this verison of outlaw in that season i probably woulda played it for prog

[cinder relic]

To be fair, you literally couldn't play outlaw on the fight

I feel that partially tainted it for you

[fathom bramble]

that statement was aimed at denathrius

but yes I definitely am more biased against dim because of that

and am tempering my statements with that in mind

I could be saying it was the least fun I had on a final boss

and I barely even remember our kill because I didn't care

I was under the impression denathrius was a good outlaw fight as you have said often in the past

but I never got to prog it due to an overload of deathknights

I also think that on the topic of dim specifically that if a fight every naturally brings about holding damage then the fight has flawed design somewhere

because it means at one or more points damage output from the player just doesn't matter

which to me is always a bad thing unless it is actually intentionally part of a specific mechanic like an immune phase on alleria

[craggy barn]

being forced to hold damage because u physically and magically cannot do damage feels less bad than being forced to just for timings

[dim widget]

denathrius had crazy aura

[vivid vessel]

@fathom bramble

i love outalw this season

[fathom bramble]

You seem to have lost damage from gaining ilvl

[proven ocean]

sounds like a skill issue ngl

[fathom bramble]

Try lowering your ilvl back down

[vivid vessel]

ye

[proven ocean]

are there good assa's or subs out there

or are they all washed up

[vivid vessel]

nop

[proven ocean]

im sure its better than outlaw or

[vivid vessel]

sub does more overall than outlaw

[proven ocean]

u sure?

[vivid vessel]

i am

[proven ocean]

sub is usually bad in high m+ tho

like

high high

is it the same cd bullshit

because if it is then its bad

[placid vapor]

https://www.twitch.tv/nstab_ i watch this guy for assa

[vivid vessel]

i think you are delusional about that evry season

[proven ocean]

im not

i know sub more than you do

[random stirrup]

wym its the same as udk

[proven ocean]

you cope on it being good

when we deplete purely cuz of sub

i understand outlaw sucked but

sub wasn't high key viable most of the time

like r1 keys

because if ur in a pack with no cds at all

that pack will never die

and you'll deplete 100%

[vivid vessel]

its not as burst as before

its average burst rn

[proven ocean]

ye if it has more consistent dmg now then ye maybe

has to be rly consistent tho

but idk i doubt that happened or

[random stirrup]

its mostly 20s burst

blades is weak af compared to what it was before

[proven ocean]

ye if its weak then thats rly good

blades being strong was so ass

depletes keys

[vivid vessel]

@fathom bramble boss after, and its not even that good of rolls, how rng is this ass spec

idk

i hate reclears now

[fathom bramble]

I would like more agency over RTB please

ty blizz

[vivid vessel]

i did 155k dps for the first 2 min lok

how crazy rng is this spec

[fathom bramble]

back to back jackpot is like 1/16 or something

and just makes you ascend for 2 minutes straight

[vivid vessel]

its just one jacpot and one 3

[placid vapor]

that would be right if each tiers of dices had the same odds of happening

does jackpot has the same as Tier 1 ?

[fathom bramble]

no

it would be right if jackpot was 25%

but it's like 16% osomething idr

it's not 1/16

[placid vapor]

man pls make dices sacle with crit

[fathom bramble]

sorry 20%

so 1/25 to get back to back jackpot

in any case it's not so unlikely that you never see it

[placid vapor]

ye

[fathom bramble]

so you just occasionally go insane for 2 minutes on farm

or for zac where it's 3+4 instead of 4 and 4 it's 1/10 to get that or better

for first 2 rolls

[buoyant stratus]

Subs decent in keys id say, beats lowroll outlaw, loses to highroll outlaw, more ST than assa, less peak burst than Assa. No prio issue tho

[fathom bramble]

Let it ride, casting roll the bones while at stage 3 or lower now adds your old stage to the new one

[grim spear]

Randomness cannot be the destination; it has to be the journey. One of the biggest problems I see with randomness in game design is that the focus of the randomness is solely on the result. Then when things don't go the players' way, they are focused on the negative of the experience. In contrast, let's say you flip for cascade and don't get the card you want. You still have the experience of trying to make the card you do get work the best you can.

---Mark Rosewater

[placid vapor]

Why not.. but getting many low tier rolls should empower next ones mlaybe especially tier 1s

[grim spear]

cto + kir was the trick

I just can't understand why they removed cto

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel so sub is dogshit

outlaw lowroll dmg

zac coping each season

SUB OP SUB OP

!!

[craggy barn]

every time ive tried sub in med high keys it just felt bad

[timid idol]

is there even the tiniest % they walk back all these addon changes at some point?

ur personal opinion

[craggy barn]

no

[timid idol]

[placid vapor]

There is still no way to track your team's kick cd right ?

[grim spear]

This season's sub is so f boring.

[craggy barn]

the bp coup macro is so funny

[grim spear]

unbearable kind of boring

[vivid vessel]

casual does more overall than me as sub

also i would like to add

outlaw has a 4min cd now

[craggy barn]

u ever think that casual is just better than u

[vivid vessel]

its quite bursty on your prep cd

[craggy barn]

outlaw being a 4 minute "burst" class is kinda funny

[vivid vessel]

like on first pull of a dungeon

outlaw just does more than the other 2 specs

[craggy barn]

yea first pull is giga

[vivid vessel]

and it actually does like

a lot

even compared to other classes

the prep first pull is just extremely powerful

3 roll

[craggy barn]

yea 3 roll is a must for that dam tho

2 roll is kinda meh

[timid idol]

double trouble

[craggy barn]

sometimes i burst 700+ with 3 or jackpot

other times im at 400 with double 2 rolls

[viscid scaffold]

would u play it over assa ?

[fathom bramble]

3 2 rolls in a roll will happen to you in 1/8 of your keys

can't be helped

[magic shuttle]

Time for the season 2 rtb tier set bonus

[lapis meadow]

Pirate damage % mastery when

[timid idol]

lol

mastery has been the worst stat since this spec has existed

u think this is ever changing?

legion was like what, almost 10 years ago?

[lapis meadow]

im telling you, new mastery "increase all pirate damage by x%" and mastery is no longer dedge

[timid idol]

they could easily fix this by allowing the mastery to also stack % chance to hit

[buoyant stratus]

Yeah played it this week to see just how it be and it be subpar

Turbo on last boss seat tho smile

More port out shenanigans for sub rogueee

[buoyant stratus]

Comp dependant just play law lowkey

[cinder relic]

It could very easily be dead still lol

It's just purely tuning

If mastery was 3x as strong, it'd be good yk

[viscid scaffold]

lowroll feel hella bad tho no

[agile orchid]

make mastery buff gun abilities

problem solved

[viscid scaffold]

and i was super lucky with rolls most of the du geons

[lapis meadow]

*pirate damage

[buoyant stratus]

Just roll better 5head

[viscid scaffold]

real

[proven ocean]

ur hard coping

he still plays outlaw

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/47?metric=dps&class=Rogue&spec=Melee

atleast give me data instead of giving me false information i know how to check things lol

[proven ocean]

its on cdr

doesn't matter

outlaw isn't a burst spec

it never was

[craggy barn]

ross may not play this game, but he can use the internet

[cinder relic]

Again that doesn't necessarily fix the issue

[proven ocean]

outlaw is clearly dominating all rogue specs atm

in m+

[cinder relic]

A new mastery can also just be undertuned and bad

[vivid vessel]

its not

:D

[proven ocean]

which one

[craggy barn]

prep

[buoyant stratus]

Restless prep would be OP lmao

[craggy barn]

is raw 4 minute

no cdr

[proven ocean]

well

still not a burst spec tho

i mean its nice to have a cd like that tho or

[slow granite]

do we know the % of rolls? my teammates think im delusional bc i 90% do 3 2 and they say its normal

[vivid vessel]

@fathom bramble

[craggy barn]

imo its only "burst" because of cloud cover

[vivid vessel]

is this intended

[proven ocean]

like

[fathom bramble]

we know their approximate odds through exhaustive testing(not my testing)

[proven ocean]

most wowlogs on sub

avg 170k overall

outlaw averages 200k+

crazy difference if u ask me

[craggy barn]

yall killed the others too fast bro

[slow granite]

ty m8

[proven ocean]

part of it is probably skill issue but

[vivid vessel]

ye there is so many sub players

omegalul

[fathom bramble]

from solo

[vivid vessel]

only person that did a key on sub

is casual

he did 2 keys

[proven ocean]

ur just trying to ragebait atm

and it wont work on me

[vivid vessel]

went back to dk

[proven ocean]

xdxddx

well

cuz it sucks

[vivid vessel]

you are looking at logs

[dull geyser]

Rng b rng'ing

[vivid vessel]

me outalw

[proven ocean]

thats why he stopped sub

[vivid vessel]

vs random jimmy

playing sub

like

?

[buoyant stratus]

Sub just weaker

Like u can top overall and the prio target still has 3m hp

Maybe with a good comp its better

But idk outlaw can just hit jackpot and do more

Maybe pbox lowhaste sub is the secret but i dont have so idk

[vivid vessel]

sub does more overall so

[buoyant stratus]

In maisara and pit probably

As soon as youre pulling 3-7 targets youre a wet noodle tho

[craggy barn]

thank god wox didnt lose to squish in first pull

[viscid scaffold]

the prep burst is only a thing first pull is that correct?

[craggy barn]

no

[buoyant stratus]

Also sub just eats a fair bit of arms war funnel with sec tec and coup which u can only sometimes avoid cleaving

[craggy barn]

its a 4min cd, u can do it every 4 minutes if u get lucky/ line it up

[viscid scaffold]

oh i see if it lines up

[buoyant stratus]

I think its overall can be higher but the actual speed of the key is just slower

[viscid scaffold]

makes sense, was moreso not forcing it

[vivid vessel]

dont have to play with arms

[proven ocean]

sure

but

if sub was really stronger

then noobs will do ur dps

because its stronger

[buoyant stratus]

Yeah if fury ele mw bear becomes goated

[proven ocean]

and if they had good rng

they might beat you

but they didnt

and none of them do ur dps

i think thats a good middle ground to check if the spec is really stronger

[viscid scaffold]

stronger doesnt mean infinitely stronger tho

that they just can do similar dmg despite being well belov skill

[proven ocean]

i dont think you understand how stronger specs work but sure

no offense

[viscid scaffold]

dont think stronger is just

how you typed it out tbh

no offense back

[proven ocean]

stronger in m+ would be around 5-10%

thats already enough to justify a random sub doing same dps as outlaw

even a random outlaw

but they aren't matching the random outlaw's dps

only rarely

on lower parses

[unkempt iris]

Ross you really love the phrase “no offense”

[viscid scaffold]

think that % is well within skil lvl, mybe a bit high

[proven ocean]

idk what u said ngl

[viscid scaffold]

that i believe the random subs

are more than 5% behind in skill

[tribal ferry]

do i press AR after reseting even if AR is still running?

[viscid scaffold]

which the spec cant make up for

[proven ocean]

5% behind in skill than every outlaw in the game?

[viscid scaffold]

than the subs

[proven ocean]

how would top 10 outlaws and top 10 subs be hugely different in skill

exclude zac because most players suck but

theres no way that those 10 subs are worse than every 9 outlaw

in all the top 10 m+ logs of rogue

it just doesn't add up

honestly tho

zac has a point tho

because when i played assa i did 30% more dmg than every assa

people just played it completely bad

like everyone

[keen belfry]

oh boy zerosss self suck is back in action

[unkempt iris]

^

[proven ocean]

cringelord

[keen belfry]

im waiting for his comment about how max made a comment about his group doing a no comms route

[craggy barn]

ross complaining that people were playing it bad but refused to help

smh

[proven ocean]

?

i provided the whole build + sim and apl for it

what are u on about

[craggy barn]

im trying to spread misinfo

[vivid vessel]

because there is 3 good outlaw player every other rogue player is irrelevant

doing 0 damage

and you know this also

so this is quite cringe

[proven ocean]

wait

[craggy barn]

whos the 3rd

[vivid vessel]

that you are even arguing that

[proven ocean]

theres 3 good outlaws now?

who

[vivid vessel]

me wox and this muma guy is pretty good

[proven ocean]

wox is good now?

[vivid vessel]

every other rogue does 0 damage and 19s

so like

[craggy barn]

yep

[vivid vessel]

waht are you even comparing

[proven ocean]

ye i mean u have a point sure

[craggy barn]

i do 0 damage and 19s

[proven ocean]

i agree zac

!

[keen belfry]

i think most data from m+ logs are pretty cursed when it comes to making any truly meaningful opinion at the highest end

[vivid vessel]

he knows that

idk why ross is even opening log

to check

[proven ocean]

ye i mean

thats true ye

[keen belfry]

and btw fuck u zac

[wintry solar]

Be nice to zac

[proven ocean]

idk

i thought i could find something but

[vivid vessel]

sorry but you do weeklioes

[proven ocean]

i saw the same names of the sub rogues that used to do 0 dps

back when i played sub

then casual shows up and does 30% more dmg

and everyone starts copying

because everyone is just doing random shit

[keen belfry]

i think i time a fair amount of high keys for the amout i play esp without static group

ill be 21 resil next week

[vivid vessel]

you know what i mean tho

no ?

[proven ocean]

why u buying m+ boost tho awang

[keen belfry]

yes i fulyl agree tho zac

[proven ocean]

ye

[vivid vessel]

there is an insane difference with people that are pugging 20s and people that are doing team keys 22s

[keen belfry]

u cant really compare somoene like myself to people like you muma and wox

yes

[vivid vessel]

its like

just our route

[keen belfry]

we are playing a diff game

[vivid vessel]

and the fact we play tohgheer

we do more

[keen belfry]

yes, trust i believe you and agree

but just fuck u

[midnight granite]

Zac coping think group play = skill

[craggy barn]

i thought speed was a sub player, hes on outlaw meta now?

[jolly geyser]

dont trust anyone,not even yourself

[proven ocean]

it is tho

[craggy barn]

or was speed never a sub only guy

[midnight granite]

It's cope yes

[proven ocean]

i remember doing this in week 2 season 3 tww @vivid vessel

[keen belfry]

i hope u know basically no one knows how important this is, most wow m players dont really understand the difference

[proven ocean]

i think in logs highest assa after me was like 7m

if not less

remember or

[cinder relic]

Synergy is op

It's the diff between scrims and top top elo ranked

It's just a lightyear of diff

[midnight granite]

Group skill is better but player skill is not

[keen belfry]

and stuff like literally catering every pull to your route and comp and is unbelievably op, like its not like the rank 1 player is 30% better than the rank 8 player but the rank 1 player will often do an obscene amount more dmg (but thats partially due to overall dps is reliant on A LOT of things that arent just pressing your buttons)

[proven ocean]

in the top end everyone's skill is way higher

[keen belfry]

m+ dps is just an interesting tpic

[proven ocean]

like

it becomes impossible to replace a player from a random pug

because they just do 20% less dps

and die more

and do less utility

less stops less kicks

and have no idea about that key level

so many things

[midnight granite]

Lol

[proven ocean]

blu trying to ragebait

but ur bad buddy

in game and ragebaiting

thoughts?

[proven ocean]

@vivid vessel

[frail veldt]

Lol

[proven ocean]

Lol

oh btw we have this restaurant called blu here

its like

the best pizza in the uae

honestly might be one of the best in the world

goated pizza but its like 35$

per pizza

[frail veldt]

In the world is a bold statement

[midnight granite]

You're just delusional it's okay tho. Group play is better than pugging. No one is denying that. But to say that people thay dont have a group are worse is pure cope lmao

[frail veldt]

How many places have you been haha

[proven ocean]

i think u underestimate how good our food is tho

[frail veldt]

I dont

I think I am doubting your wordliness

[vivid vessel]

i didnt say taht tho

[proven ocean]

we have alot of good pizza's from italy come all the way here because the income is alot bigger

best pizzas in italy are usually here already

[vivid vessel]

im just saying you wont ever do my damage in a lfg group

because we play good routes

[midnight granite]

Yeah that's true for sure

[vivid vessel]

we always do the same thing

ok well thats what i was saying

[frail veldt]

Ye ofc not

[soft abyss]

Also a player learning to play the team game will be more skilled than a pug player

[frail veldt]

people heavily underestimate how much of your overall comes from stuff outside of your rotation

[soft abyss]

You see the game as it should be

raw talent may be better but execution will never be

[proven ocean]

i think if zac invites 1 random pug

and assigns him to 30 mobs to interrupt and stop at a specific time

he will insta deplete the key

[craggy barn]

zac team should replace zac for a key

they keep replacing everyone else

they should replace him

[proven ocean]

well they arent tho

ppl just stop playing

thats how high keys work usually

ppl get burned out

[vivid vessel]

we just replaced our warrior because he broke his leg

he will be back in a bit

[craggy barn]

ye

[proven ocean]

what

[vivid vessel]

ye

faro broke his leg

[proven ocean]

is he playing with his legs

or what

like

[vivid vessel]

i asked the same

[proven ocean]

??

LOL

[vivid vessel]

he went back to his parents home

[proven ocean]

ah

[vivid vessel]

cause he needed help

[proven ocean]

oh

ye understandable

hope he gets better soon

farover good guy

good player too

send him my regards zac

!

[hardy wigeon]

Porsea said zac is irreplaceable

On god frfr

[proven ocean]

@tough salmon is that true

or is zac just washed up and black mailing you?

[wintry solar]

Make a wish maybe?

[hardy wigeon]

Always been washed 🤓

[wintry solar]

Outlaw players don't bathe silly

[proven ocean]

ayo dont include me

i shower everyday

[wintry solar]

Not a single outlaw player

No sirree

[frail veldt]

erryday poopo

[wintry solar]

Showers are dry as a bone...

[hardy wigeon]

Twice today I got invited in a phys comp group and both times it had an aug…….

What are we fucking doing at this point fellas

[proven ocean]

so u dont take a shower

whats ur no shower streak

ok maybe we should change the topic its getting out of hand

[jolly geyser]

4 days

[hardy wigeon]

One week without shower has been done before (zero wow played in that time)

[keen belfry]

im a night shower guy

anyone else chat

i work remote so that changes it

[proven ocean]

u dont shower in the morning?

[arctic hollow]

Imagine getting in bet filthy from the day

[keen belfry]

u lay in ur bed all gross?

[soft abyss]

showering in the morning is weird

[proven ocean]

morning and night

wdym weird

[soft abyss]

night shower or evening before going out is normal

[proven ocean]

do u just show up to work all greased up

[keen belfry]

i work fromh ome

[keen belfry]

!

[soft abyss]

but you bathe last night

and go to work the next morning

pshychotic behaviour getting up especially on cold mornings and taking a bath

[proven ocean]

not rly just morning then when u come back from work

thats it

[proven ocean]

idk dude its like 40 degrees celcius here

aint no cold mornings here buddy

[keen belfry]

i wake up clean, work, walk, gym, eat, (stinky at home a lil bit) then showeras my night ritual

its bis @proven ocean

[eternal hound]

!oh

[ornate heath]

A dagger offhand is ~1% better than a slow weapon mostly because of Zero In, and also slightly more Instant Poison procs. Energy is not affected by offhand speed.

It is possible large ilvl differences can matter more than this bonus so use Raidbots Top Gear when in doubt.

[proven ocean]

oh

[cedar bone]

can someone give me buff id for opportunity ?

[hardy thicket]

Tf you sit all day after gym without showering

[gaunt phoenix]

stinky boy

[keen belfry]

i wash face and "rinse" but basically kinda? i also dont sweat my balls off at teh gym anymore

[hardy thicket]

Like

You been on benches and machines dripped in sweat from 10k random people

Nice one

[unkempt iris]

Maybe he doesnt do that stuff at the gym

[keen belfry]

bros never wiped stuff down at the gym before

[hardy thicket]

Its mandatory

Still would you trust it gets everything off or

[keen belfry]

withh that argument everyting every is dirty af

[unkempt iris]

Do you eat food off the plates at restaurants?

[keen belfry]

u should shower after the grocery store bro

[hardy thicket]

Lol I dont sit down and lay down on stuff there while working out myself tho

Just shower after a gym session like wth

[soft abyss]

or dont go to the gym ?

like anormal person

[keen belfry]

idm being a lil stinky boy at home i have own place, and truthfully i dont sweat much anymore

[hardy thicket]

Ban???

[keen belfry]

gym is too good voinho

legit op

needs nerf

[hardy thicket]

Gym is +dps

[unkempt iris]

Just do gym at home, its the meta

[soft abyss]

I find it ultra boring

can't stand it

it's 10 years since last time I went

I prefer playing a game

[hardy thicket]

To each their own ig

[soft abyss]

yeah i really prefer having a goal

like playing football

or tennis

or idk

[hardy thicket]

Then gym is grear

[soft abyss]

trying to compete

[hardy thicket]

Great

[soft abyss]

there is no immediate win

[unkempt iris]

I mean yeah if you’re going to the gym without a goal you’re throwing

[hardy thicket]

Uh

[soft abyss]

the goal is too far-sighted

[hardy thicket]

The dopamine and endorphine is immidiate

[unkempt iris]

Thats everything in life man

[hardy thicket]

Just like when you procc BtE

[soft abyss]

I would say the opposite

[unkempt iris]

Unless you’re like trolling or a hedonist idk what you’re saying

[soft abyss]

We live for the moment

Idc if in 30 years I ll be healthier

[unkempt iris]

We’ll see about that when you’re ill and suffering

You can live in the moment AND live for future moments

[soft abyss]

xd

[hardy thicket]

Like a good gym session where you really gave it your all or a cardio activity is like top3 world insta gratifications imo

[unkempt iris]

Also if you played games for the instant gratification you would not be playing wow

[hardy thicket]

You would

Tho

[unkempt iris]

Casually maybe

[hardy thicket]

No

[unkempt iris]

Since they just hand shit out at this point

[hardy thicket]

The opposite

[unkempt iris]

You don’t do 100-200 pulls of a mythic boss, or slam a key over and over again for instant gratification

[hardy thicket]

Like i'd take a template char fully decked out and just slam high keys from day 1

Over having to gear and shit

[soft abyss]

I mean I don't say there is no point in losing

[unkempt iris]

Yeah but thats not the argument here

[soft abyss]

I am saying if I win I want to feel it

In wow if I kill the boss it is instant gratification

[hardy thicket]

There are constantly instant gratifications in every pull or every key. At least for my brain

Thats why I play

[unkempt iris]

I mean yeah, but its the culmination of attempts and learning the game that gives gratification

[soft abyss]

yeah agree 100%

[unkempt iris]

Like it can be both

[hardy thicket]

Timing a high key or downing a hard boss is the cherry on top and culmination

[soft abyss]

If I did it 1 pull lura I would be happy too

[unkempt iris]

But there are so many better avenues in the video game industry for instant gratification

[hardy thicket]

Just like you can to the gym and love it but also see gains over a year

I agree

Solo q when

LFG kills me

[soft abyss]

true

My point was gym is kinda boring, I would love to go and work out while ''playing a game''

[hardy thicket]

You kinda can

[soft abyss]

Cause I cba train for my health

I really don't care

[hardy thicket]

I do steps while m+:ing

[soft abyss]

but I would do it for the competitive aspect

[soft abyss]

Yeah this could be some idea tbh

[hardy thicket]

Just get a walking band

[soft abyss]

kinda cringe but it could work

[hardy thicket]

Idk if its cringe its efficient

Maybe dont do high keys tho lol

Like weeklies

Some weekly keys and 10k steps easy peasy

[soft abyss]

yeah I wouldn't be able to do the keys I am fighting for

[hardy thicket]

One of the best investments was my walking pad tbh

That and raisable table and gg

[hardy thicket]

Nah like mouse accuracy plus fatigue gets kinda spicy if you have to be 100% on point

[soft abyss]

yeah agree

[keen belfry]

y u think this happened @vivid vessel

[vivid vessel]

lol waht

[keen belfry]

i have no guess as to what reset him

[midnight granite]

Skill issue noob

[gaunt palm]

Tank meld or? Kinda looks like wyrms and pyromancers move towards ur warrior at the same moment as it resets, but looks hella sus tbh

[keen belfry]

i wodner if it has to do with tank being on edge of room to bait the balls

and the adds cant target?

idk

[buoyant stratus]

Pyro casted mass invis fuckin mages man i swear to god

[keen belfry]

would be crazy tech

maybe when i cast pot the mob turned smart and said lets reset

[stable crow]

is 25% haste for m+ is mandatory or is nice to have?

I have 24% I guess that 1 % is not the end of the world but it feels like sometimes I'm running out of energy

[placid vapor]

From the exp i have and the reading here, you WILL run out of energy no matter what you do, but haste sims higher than other stats until some threshold

[dire rampart]

same thing happened to me its the adds im pretty sure

[golden stump]

No wowanalytics makes me sad

[rancid silo]

wen is wound poison good this season

MT and MC?

[craggy barn]

all of trolls in first area of MC before boss
the consuming void guys in mt

theres some healing mobs in seat, but those dont matter bc u just interrupt them

[nova sinew]

Subjugators also heal I believe

[craggy barn]

nexus point has some leech mobs

on right side

yea i think subjugators do a leech thing too?

but a lot of those leeches are stoppable

idk how impactful wound would be for them

over dr

for the whole pack

it works for MC because literally every troll is regening

[nova sinew]

You’re not exactly missing out on any other utility in our tree

[vivid vessel]

wound is against instant poison

not against dr poison

[craggy barn]

right

[vivid vessel]

idk what you mean

[craggy barn]

myb

im being dumb

[vivid vessel]

also it heals the whole pack

when it ticks

[craggy barn]

the leech?

ah

[vivid vessel]

y

[craggy barn]

huge

but u wouldnt talent double wound for it would u

or do u bc why not

since u just drop stealth speed

[keen belfry]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLCkPfQQJ4E @cinder relic should make video like this for law

[cinder relic]

oooo

THat could be fun

[keen belfry]

i dont know how much this helps and forgy does this every tier and idk if his changes are heard but good concept he does all the time

i think outlaws would be very simple too

[cinder relic]

I feel like I could make one for all 3 specs

after playing them all a lot

Could be fun to script and make

I have a lura video I finished, but didn't release either lol

Probs should do that too lol

Just like, how to prog the fight effectively

[keen belfry]

they can fix this spec cuz its close again

but i think they dont know it

[pastel sierra]

Or their vision is different to yours

[cinder relic]

Even if they have a different vision there is room for improvements

I like the overall direction of the spec, but I'm not delusional, there are still issues that exist within the spec

Mainly prep and Kir

[keen belfry]

yeah i dont think their vision to to not function at 2 target cleave or be unable to press buttons

[cinder relic]

but then like, energy, tea, new RTB

[keen belfry]

and i dont think the power swings within rtb are something they intended

obviously speculating

[pastel sierra]

Base design wise they at least gotta figure out the weapon thing

Just make a new weapon type at this point

[keen belfry]

zero in shouldnt be better with a dagger i agree

[pastel sierra]

DH got int onto their OWN weapon type just for devourer and i still gotta get a weapon just for 1/3 specs

[cinder relic]

I dont see that as an issue idk

[frail veldt]

Yeah I think that's by far the least of the issues

[keen belfry]

its not something i would bring up but like wobble did, comparing it to devdh weapons makes it seem weird

if we are the only spec that uses a sword in rogue, why do we also need a dagger?

[frail veldt]

The loot table issue is a little goofy

[keen belfry]

im a pirate let me dual wield swords

[frail veldt]

You can

Aesthetically

[keen belfry]

but yes i agree i wouldnt bring this up as a major point i would simply say randomly "yo blizz dev why is a dagger offhand much better than a sword off hand u should normalize zero in thanks"

[pastel sierra]

I main sub this season so my 'issues' rn are no hero track weapon for outlul and stats suck

[frail veldt]

Sub stats are fine for outlaw I thought

Haste crit

[pastel sierra]

Nah subs back to mastery haste

[frail veldt]

Lol

[keen belfry]

like if blizz simply new to increase rtb 3buff chance or something, and increase energy we would be happy for a tier

knew

[frail veldt]

I'm still not entirely sure the direction they want outlaw to go in

Like holistically

[pastel sierra]

I got 1300 mastery

[cyan basalt]

what poisons should I be running for M+ as outlaw?

[frail veldt]

I can see the minor things like trimming complexity from some mechanics like rtb

[cinder relic]

I'm fine with a spec requriing diff weapon types and having payoffs in the talent tree around them

However, it shoudl maybe? be in the lotot able

[keen belfry]

im not sur etheir design goals either, i think they have done a decent job achieving a simpler more approachable outlaw kinda

[frail veldt]

Yeah thatd put it on parity with most other specs

You shouldnt have to force your loot table to the OTHER spec to get your bis type of item

[pastel sierra]

I mean its nice to be able to control it like that

[keen belfry]

do you guys think it would be weird if sub could equip swords and would be better as an offhand?

but maybe thats diff

[pastel sierra]

But at this point, would be easier to just have outlaw use daggers

[frail veldt]

Yeah that's exactly the same

Would be dumb

[pastel sierra]

Yes it doesnt fit with fantasy

[keen belfry]

but our fantasy is using swords

[pastel sierra]

They can figure it out somehow

U got a gun you dont equip

They can squeeze BL onto hunter for whatever reason too

[glass mortar]

i do think its silly feeling when items that cant drop for ur spec are bis/night mandatory

[austere hawk]

huh

[glass mortar]

but on the other hand it is kinda an advantage we cant get daggers to drop?

[pastel sierra]

What about maces and axes and fist weapons awang

[glass mortar]

u can make ur loot pool smaller and make it so only weapons that can show up are mh or oh

[keen belfry]

u guys know what i mean

we are pirates

[glass mortar]

but that advantage is small compared to competing with other specs for slow mh so

🤷

[keen belfry]

cobat ppl

combat

we use bigger weapon

[austere hawk]

sub?

[keen belfry]

what r u asking]

youve asked 2 questions

[austere hawk]

either way it makes sense in outlaw

[keen belfry]

and they arent answerable

[glass mortar]

awang

[austere hawk]

https://tenor.com/view/reaction-meme-stan-twt-silly-buckspendragon-two-shots-of-vodka-gif-6427070150238735994

[keen belfry]

weran what is moody saying

[glass mortar]

combat dn

[frail veldt]

I would like them to just try to eliminate some of the low points in the spec

[glass mortar]

https://tenor.com/view/helicopter-cat-wunkus-silly-cat-gif-15459501743584172385

[normal hawk]

Why would the sneaky rogue use a mace?

[keen belfry]

why would the combat rogue use a dagger

[frail veldt]

Energy and uptime

[pastel sierra]

Big sword small sword

[glass mortar]

i mean sap is literally with a club

[normal hawk]

That’s what swashbucklers did?

[glass mortar]

theres nothing inherently unsneaky about 1h weapons tbh

[pastel sierra]

Common medieval dual wield style

[austere hawk]

i always assumed sap was just a big bonk

[keen belfry]

what was moody asking me

he asked 2 questions

and neither were really like, answerable

[keen belfry]

sub

[keen belfry]

yeah

[austere hawk]

you said should sub be able to use long weapons OH. someone said that doesnt fit the fantasy, you said but that is our fantasy

this is what happened

there was a disconnect apparently

[keen belfry]

he was saying sub using swords doesnt fit with fantasy

and i said outlaw fantasy is using swords

[austere hawk]

context matters

[keen belfry]

so why we use dagger

[normal hawk]

Cause it’s a main gauche

[austere hawk]

also who said a scurvy swashbuckler couldnt use a good dagger

[pastel sierra]

No i was saying that outlaw should just use dual wield daggers to save us from the annoying loot pool shit
But that wouldnt fit with the outlaw fantasy

[keen belfry]

i dont say our in outlaw chat as an outlaw player andam talking about sub tbf

but maybe i have to explain taht

[undone notch]

Waow... we should like... have a move named after that

[cursive gyro]

I feel like this problem was solved with the Precise Cuts talent and they just removed it for some reason. I miss it every day.

[keen belfry]

funny times when the old rogue blizz guy was seen in twitch chat asking why is precise cuts gone

[jovial dock]

how do we sim ? d slice?

[normal hawk]

I play sub idk what’s going on in outlaw

[undone notch]

Main Gauche is the name of our Mastery

[dim parrot]

U have screenshot that sounds funny

Tbf precise cuts made tuning awkward between m+ and raid

I remember I blamed it for bad tuning

Now it’s gone and I suck at 2-3 targ cleave

[river wing]

hwuh

[river wing]

now it's gone and outlaw has no fight profile it shines at
I mean maybe "target dummy" like Vora lmao

[dim parrot]

Problem with precise cuts was it never really shined at 2-3 targs cuz it would always be tuned with a council fight in mind

So it would be just okay

[keen belfry]

it slapped in tww s2/s3

[buoyant stratus]

Demo duo outlaw

Nut

[keen belfry]

doing like 125% to off target

[dim parrot]

S3 rest of the spec was garbage

If they tune us around a council fight with precise cuts

Then that’s what we shine at

[cinder relic]

Before precise cuts was good. It allowed it to shine in areas it was sort of designed to be good at

[dim parrot]

Then that means the rest of the profile must be below average

[cinder relic]

People in here argued it was "bad because the spec could never be tuned properly"

But then now we just don't have it, and we also dont do damage on 3 targets

Seems like a bad solution

To an imaginary problem

[dim parrot]

Maybe

They got rid of it tho

We don’t know why

[gaunt phoenix]

Outlaw used to be good at cleave before pc though

what changed?

[cinder relic]

Raw values of bf

[keen belfry]

i mean it wasnt really imaginary, pc shouldve been used as a tuning knob but it definitely seemed to have made us look better in raid than we were early on

pc would be goated tuning knob for us

[dim parrot]

I think energy and bf duration stuff doesn’t help rn

Idk if bf duration being doubled would even help that much but it would feel better

[low glade]

outlaw is pretty fun rn ngl

[cinder relic]

I'd argue it was an imaginary problem because realistically speaking, thru tww, the spec was like, solid ovetall

[keen belfry]

i do wonder how much having to press a gcd and use energy every 11ish secondds hurts us in low cleave. like, would we be good at paladins if we didn thave to press bf more than once?

[cinder relic]

Ofc mfo hapoened, but both undermine and nerubar outlaw was solid

It had pc. Pc let is flex it's niche on the fights that allowed it

[river wing]

no

[keen belfry]

outlaw really became good in tww after they fixed pc in undermine, but i dont remember much of s1 outlaw as i didnt play it

[river wing]

like it hurts ofc
but it wouldn't make us good if it was a toggle

[keen belfry]

im curious the change

[dim parrot]

Yeah idk if u can assume that it wouldn’t help that much

[cinder relic]

I mean the bf change didn't affect it in raid but yeah