they have so much space man
#outlaw
ancient cobalt
ancient cobalt
right?!
fathom bramble
I was often just leaving the boss on exceptionally bad glaives during the symbols...
which feels bad for dam obviously, but being at range just makes it so free
junior coral
so trick and fate are about the same for m+?
gaunt phoenix
ye
random stirrup
I was often just leaving the boss on exceptionally bad glaives during the symbol...
yep
was a good time to be udk and now im a stinky fdk
like the only times i have ever died to glaives is when they bounce weirdly under boss while terminate or something else is going on
so the glaive is obscured by the hitbox
i swear if i was at 30yds i would never die
also terminate mandating you stay in melee to get your kick while scary glaives are inside the boss model
rotund cliff
any way to tricks be on tank always like last season ?
hardy thicket
im old af so I still use my trustworthy tricks macro where I copy tanks name each key 
random stirrup
any way to tricks be on tank always like last season ?
!tott
ornate heathBOT
fathom bramble
also terminate mandating you stay in melee to get your kick while scary glaives ...
yeah this one especially
I like it when my raidlead calls to "play a bit away from boss" during the kicks so people don't get a surprise glaive
and I just literally can't
that's a ranged player only activity
random stirrup
yes
vivid vessel
random stirrup
instead i maybe die once while trying to grip the lil crystal
not looking at my feet
but at least then there's no terminate adds blocking the view of the glaives
fathom bramble
I saw our dk just tank a glaive idk
random stirrup
i am just blind
fathom bramble
took 5 ticks and didn't even die
random stirrup
I saw our dk just tank a glaive idk
yeah you can
you only die as dk if you like
full dont see
and tank the entire thing
fathom bramble
doing seed on this fight has made me even more sure that hook is the best movement skill in the game
and that step is junk
all the close calls that require actual snap movement with hook
random stirrup
was the best movement skill in the game until nerfed for dh shift
step is a bit junk
fathom bramble
lower CD still lets it be arguably better than dh shift maybee
but yeah mechanically shift is the best skill
random stirrup
i did miss step when my runes people completely walled me off of crossing to clear my first symbol of p3 memory game
so my only choice was to walk through the darkness
fathom bramble
yeah it has a few uses here or there
when we simply had both was quite interesting
hallow spoke
is it next reset we get the 9 ilvl upgrade?
fathom bramble
yes
hallow spoke
hell ye
spark quarry
guys, i've got a question. If BTE cooldown resets, do we just spam bte until it goes on cooldown, or do we use SS to get to 6-7 CP before using BTE again?
wintry solar
Always 6-7
long bramble
junior coral
!prekey
ornate heathBOT
- Use
Adrenaline Rush to activate 
Loaded Dice. - As Trickster, use
KS to activate 
Disorienting Strikes. - Do NOT use
RTB before the key, you will lose it. - Use
SND during the bubble once the key starts.
keen belfry
jail
keen belfry
hes a bad human and player
long bramble
got like 3 champion charges
radiant wyvern
long bramble
HAHAHAHAHAHA
radiant wyvern
bro help
long bramble
bro is on a streak
long bramble
i think i have like 4/5 tanks in ignore
this season is really scuffed tank side
a lot of reroller giga clueless
vapid sundial
There was a paladin in season 1 TWW
that made a whole rant
'im sorry im so shit and i know you all probably hate me, dont want to play with me, but im new and im trying'
bright lodge
Felt kinda same-ish, except SoH is not ever working
vapid sundial
'im sorry im so shit and i know you all probably hate me, dont want to play with...
something akin to this
is what he said in one of the push-cords
long bramble
'im sorry im so shit and i know you all probably hate me, dont want to play with...
i get this bro trust me but i m in 19s i kinda expect ppl to know how to play
you know what i mean
vapid sundial
ye
stop qing for higher keys
learn your class
The worst tho was aug evoker players
their ego was crazy s1
for some reason
Not really sure what it was about that class, but it brought out the worst in people.
long bramble
like i got a nexus 19 with my monk not pressing any button and dying while gathering first pull
and then he went ???
vapid sundial
he was busy spitting monster into his egirls mouth
long bramble
like bro press celestial or forty or smth
vapid sundial
leave him alone
random stirrup
The worst tho was aug evoker players
its always aug
they're playing the passenger princess spec
vapid sundial
its always aug
dont even get me started maaaaan
this one aug
asked him if he could kick
and bro full tilt lost it
proven ocean
ryker
do u even play wow
or do u just come here to yap
and pretend ur an outlaw
?
vapid sundial
If i play i would play outlaw
But game sucks rn
unlucky
however past experiences are still relevant bozo
hazy temple
can you cloak the heal absorb on Paladins mythic?
proven ocean
game sucks thats the main reason im not playing really
random stirrup
can you cloak the heal absorb on Paladins mythic?
no
proven ocean
its not like primarily because of my job
vapid sundial
vapid sundial
Im not interested in haste tax still
random stirrup
can you cloak the heal absorb on Paladins mythic?
you cannot cloak the soaks or searing radiance either
first second of cloak will work on searing but not the rest
feint doesnt work on searing either
radiant wyvern
bro is on a streak
random stirrup
it's all coming full circle
idk bruv this is not a good look
proven ocean
he died cuz of ur cat
radiant wyvern
lie
proven ocean
no
radiant wyvern
cap
proven ocean
did i say yes tho
proven ocean
https://tenor.com/view/bingus-springus-cat-jump-sphinx-gif-25754940
:elerk:
oh i dont have the emote
gaunt phoenix
vapid sundial
ryker i knew you couldn't keep up
i stopped paying attention and went to yap in someones chat
radiant wyvern
adhd
vapid sundial
yeah surely all outlaw playes
mighty pivot
https://imgur.com/FLH02iW
post your cat now!
proven ocean
yeah surely all outlaw playes
playes
radiant wyvern
i m medicated
vapid sundial
gaunt phoenix
post your cat now!
vapid sundial
zac when blizzard finally removes outlaw
long bramble
legit bricked 5 seat today always at this pull i still have to try the first boss
vapid sundial
fry in the bag
mighty pivot
mlem
half gale
hey yall is there a roll addon?
vapid sundial
its crazy
craggy barn
legit bricked 5 seat today always at this pull i still have to try the first bos...
classic tank runing just far enough out of range of the champions to get giga fucked in the back, along with a void caller
half gale
so no roll the bones addons these days?
keen belfry
random kite
jolly geyser
not as fast as it used to be(thankfully),but still pressing buttons n shit
atomic monolith
am i the only one who feels that outlaw has random moments where i feel like im sinister striking 4-5 times in aoe to get max cp for BtE? it makes it feel so janky on an otherwise fast spec
hardy thicket
No thats what happends if ur stuck on stage 1 have fun
timid portal
quit wow?
proven ocean
watch project hail mary movie
timid portal
oh
jolly geyser
is it out on HD on sail sites?
jolly geyser
ye,meant stream sites
proven ocean
stremio is better
uses the original video CD used when filming the movie
so u get to watch the movie before its out in any cinema
or usually on same time
vivid vessel
jolly geyser
gz on kill
random stirrup
i told you you would beat us
outer meteor
<:WICKEG:934125230195089419>
massive
random stirrup
not the loot stuff
outer meteor
tender wedge
Not even top of the death meter 👍
atomic monolith
No thats what happends if ur stuck on stage 1 have fun
what do you mean?
vivid vessel
yuh
also i checked
pre p4 damage
outlaw is gapping sub
so hard
i mean i think i got a good pull
trail sparrow
brothers, is it grief to upgrade a crafted wep in 2 days ?
fathom bramble
probably not
the upgrade items have the same wording as the catalyst charges that we just farm out
trail sparrow
I mean atleast its bis secondarys no
fathom bramble
if you do enough keys you can just send on whatever(maybe)
we kind of have to wait and see what the drop rate is to have a 100% corret answer
trail sparrow
but crafted gets like 4 ilvl less compared to a full myth weapon no ?
fathom bramble
may also be a weekly cap and/or not work like the cata charges at all
trail sparrow
I see
fathom bramble
it's just if you can farm them then you might as well
if your playing enough to farm more than 4 in a timely manner
true dust
is there any experience yet on how FB performs vs trickster in m+? Is it a large difference or marginal?
trail sparrow
the next ones won't be timegated ?
thought we only get an upgrade every couple of weeks
radiant wyvern
is there any experience yet on how FB performs vs trickster in m+? Is it a large...
not worth imo, no burst dmg
true dust
you mean because no cloud cover?
still i would like to know the actual difference, sometimes i just want to chill on FB but not if its 10% weaker 😄
pure folio
is there any experience yet on how FB performs vs trickster in m+? Is it a large...
Like 2%
They are similar in damage
radiant wyvern
you mean because no cloud cover?
ye
true dust
They are similar in damage
cool, thanks
icy hare
<@101843879791177728>
Why Guidon?
icy hare
Fair
devout elk
So we making MH, OH or Gaze 298 wednesday boys?
pure folio
MH
violet osprey
sims higher
zac what are ur stats rn?
tribal ferry
is outlaw in keys played outside of phys comps?
pure folio
is outlaw in keys played outside of phys comps?
i mean at what level
tribal ferry
i mean at what level
+18 and above
pure folio
18s u could prob get away with it
by not playing it
but i dont think it is played without it in higher keys, no
tribal ferry
but i dont think it is played without it in higher keys, no
in my head if you replaced devourer with outlaw in meta comp that would work just as well no? Outlaw seems pretty versatile
long bramble
i think prob the wall is 19
the only 19 i tried and timed tho was with a phys comp with dk instead of feral
tribal ferry
so arms warri dk outlaw or what?
violet osprey
not having a war is kinda huge
long bramble
it was warr dk outlaw monk rsham
violet osprey
ye thats doable
tribal ferry
not having a war is kinda huge
is that str buff that big?
not str but attack power rather
violet osprey
yeah its 8% i think not 5
long bramble
ye thats doable
i mean i timed 18s with ret ele mw bear
tribal ferry
but then at the same time, does DK profit from DH buff?
trail sparrow
he should ye
tribal ferry
hmm fair then i guess
upper hawk
how do i count the ace procs in a log?
vs how many BTE done without 6 bullets up the sleeve
young elbow
Hi guys, any idea how to correctly track RTB buffs via Arcui? (1,2,3,4 instead of only icon)
mighty pivot
you cannot detect which buff it is
polar niche
GUYS WHAT HAPPEND TO FIRST BOSS TRINKET? why give me 1.7 dps increase?
since when is so good?
amber ibex
!ui
ornate heathBOT
Resources:
ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
Misc:
Clickable Raid Buffs - for poisons
WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator, track cursor
Mute Cold Blood sound - if we ever go back to this talent
rich blaze
GUYS WHAT HAPPEND TO FIRST BOSS TRINKET? why give me 1.7 dps increase?
WILL IT HURT BABY TOP OF HEAD?!?!
soft abyss
pregananant?
formal thunder
!fuu
ornate heathBOT
Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version
ancient cobalt
<@101843879791177728>
noice, is that skyreach trinket on heroic not simmin betta for you ? i have a m guidon too, do u just press on cd or with ar
clear tulip
<@101843879791177728>
this will be my evidence to not bench spec lura
near rock
i mean i think i got a good pull
you think?
bro hits all 7's on his slot machine and is like "yeeahhh I think thats pretty good idk tho"
surreal flower
vivid vessel
you think?
eh
mad cause bad
no monk p3 
all good
tbf my p1 damage was average
p2 wasnt crazy either
p3 was a blast tho
vivid vessel
ok i watch now
vivid vessel
@gaunt phoenix @frail veldt @keen belfry @glass mortar
rate energy
duo boss windrunner
going into it with 0 tea charge
proven ocean
Wheres my ping zac wtf
frail veldt
DUO BOSS ENERGY SUCKS SO MUCH
vivid vessel
and perma rolling 2s
frail veldt
BRO
vivid vessel
i couldnt play
frail veldt
Actual torture
frail veldt
Like watching paint dry but you're watching your energy bar and tea cooldown
frail veldt
i do more on st
Lowkey
vivid vessel
because outalw is bad
frail veldt
I'm wondering
frail veldt
If we don't refresh bf
vivid vessel
outlaw on 2 target can just
frail veldt
If your energy is bad
vivid vessel
low roll so hard
frail veldt
And you have 2 roll
frail veldt
And no tea
vivid vessel
idk
frail veldt
Legit
vivid vessel
xd
xd
vivid vessel
85%+ uptime on triple threat and jackpot for a long fight is def a high roll
sure it is
have you checked lok p3 tho
slim hare
ZAC
proven ocean
Bn for u guys
slim hare
its post worthy i think
proven ocean
Best night
slim hare
ping it and ship it
radiant wyvern
jackpot and only building 2 cp at a time each ss like 10 times in a row
true dust
are ritual sites lvl 5 so hard or am i doing something wrong
glass mortar
@vivid vessel i swear outlaw has never felt this weak with bad rng and combined with them deleting our low target cleave
outlaw on 2 targets is so depressing compared to last expac its wild
less then ud expect on ST 
me when BF feels like a massive tax again
every1 missed that
wheat canyon
any1 have any good macros?
vivid vessel
st damage
wheat canyon
for outlaw?
glass mortar
we could be doing
200% damage
on 2t last expac zac
no
210% damage
210% to 120%
i guess we got our ST in aoe builds back but like
i dont think it needed to delete our lowt cleave
wheat canyon
where can i find a guide on outlaw rogue??
fiery timber
!prekey
ornate heathBOT
- Use Adrenaline Rush to activate Loaded Dice.
- As Trickster, use KS to activate Disorienting Strikes.
- Do NOT use RTB before the key, you will lose it.
- Use SND during the bubble once the key starts.
steel shadow
i got 2 questions regarding combo point optimization
-
i know you ss when at 2 buff or more on 1 combo point to optimize 6+ point finishers, but what if you ss and opportunity procs and you get to 5? just spend or go again for 7?
-
when im bte spamming and getting resets, whenever it resets and i have 5 cp i feel gross and want to push it to 7 with a ss or a pistol shot but i have never heard or seen that suggested its just what feels right in my heart of hearts, how wrong am i and why am i wrong
grim spear
overall the performance is decent enough, it's just not fun to play
low cleave unacceptable
glass mortar
i got 2 questions regarding combo point optimization
1. i know you ss when at 2...
first rule is only as fatebound. you dont do this as trickster
second you are supposed to BtE at 6+ CP
if its at 5 after a proc you build
steel shadow
first rule is only as fatebound. you dont do this as trickster
so on trickster you ps at 1cp for 5 and do a finisher at 5?
glass mortar
no u press PS
it doesnt matter, but PS makes u need to react less
the outcome is the same either way
fatebound gets more combo points from SS procs so if u press SS at 1 cp, you go to 6 and get an efficient finisher
trickster goes to 5
so you build 2 times regardless of the outcome
steel shadow
so if u only have 1 opportunity you would do finisher->ps->ss->finisher
glass mortar
ya
warped spruce
!prekey
ornate heathBOT
- Use Adrenaline Rush to activate Loaded Dice.
- As Trickster, use KS to activate Disorienting Strikes.
- Do NOT use RTB before the key, you will lose it.
- Use SND during the bubble once the key starts.
grim spear
lol intern level work
cinder relic
whats the issue?
dull ginkgo
300-400k dps Guardian first pull +m
cinder relic
Reffering to the comment
quiet ore
whats the issue?
They previously nerfed the power of the apex talent mangle echo and moved power into thrash to bring guardian druid into line with other tanks and assist with AoE threat, but buffing Thrash just made the no-Apex build silly strong
final pagoda
particle density for smoke ?
grim spear
5 guardian druids timed a 20 key 8 hours ago, wowhead posted about it 2 hours ago, and then it got hotfixed
no design, no testing, not even their own ideas
that's today's blz
cinder relic
Guardian druid has been OP as fuck DPS wise all season
vivid vessel
Guardian druid has been OP as fuck DPS wise all season
makes you wonder why they buffed them last reset
tuning has been quite weird this season
with them buffing the already thanos spec
multiple times on multiple occurence
oh well !
grim spear
it just shows the designers don't even have their own judgment anymore
or maybe they've got some stupid boss forcing his shitty judgment down their throats
like hero talents, or nerfing tank survivability
the people doing the actual work neither understand it nor like it, and this is what you end up with
normal violet
Hey chat, question- although we send things on cooldown, do we hold just before damage amps like 2nd boss of Nexus? Like say you start that boss and AR has like 30 seconds on CD and know you can get it ready pretty fast, like within the first 10 seconds of the fight, do we hold for 20 seconds-ish before dmg amp or send anyways?
I feel like holding for 20 seconds is rough, but idk I just can't tell what i should do
Like at what point should we hold vs not hold?
leaden sonnet
makes you wonder why they buffed them last reset
Just like they didnt intend cloud cover to be such a massive gain for outlaw im sure they didnt intend for the guardian stuff to be this strong either. The guardian one is more understandable since its not always easy to test "all the builds", whereas the cloud cover one is just...uhhh..
grim spear
ye that's called intern level work
vivid vessel
but also i find it funny that the cloud cover thing was obviously unintended
grim spear
Reffering to the comment
this
blissful gate
vivid vessel
but it was basically just enough to bring outlaw to normal spec level
show how bad the tuning was
that a spec needed 13% buff
just to be what it is rn
which is like
idk
kinda whatever
good tuning !
tiny onyx
they probably do their tuning based on the one-button rotation xdd
quiet ore
that a spec needed 13% buff
That it needed a 13% buff after 3 resets of 3% buffs
vivid vessel
i mean i wouldnt be so surprised
vivid vessel
That it needed a 13% buff after 3 resets of 3% buffs
ye like
they were so careful
little 4% aura
10% nerf to bf
and then
oh shit we accidentally buffed the spec by 15% ?
oh wait
it didnt matter ?
oh ok then
my bad !
pure folio
idk zac outlaw is like slightly above average in m+ id say
timid idol
i think the point is
balance was better in tww before they threw it all into the gutter with this shitty ass addon+prune combo
at least imo, but i didnt play that many specs in tww so maybe biased
so many fundamental design changes was never ever going to work out in such a short time
this entire addon thing should have been graduately rolled out
fathom bramble
the way ion describes it makes it sound so bad
timid idol
its really funny how frost was reworked and finally cool and good and now its back to omega dog tier
fathom bramble
like they planned to do thee addon prune and stumbled into deciding to rework a ton of specs over it
leaden sonnet
balance was better in tww before they threw it all into the gutter with this shi...
Idk about that
fathom bramble
with the question "is it fair to ask players to track all this without addons"
leaden sonnet
Dont think addons has much at all to do with the balance
timid idol
with the question "is it fair to ask players to track all this without addons"
i will be dead straight
besides rtb, was there any other buff mechanic that had to be tracked this hard
in any spec
pure folio
tww balancing had its moments of being unbalanced just like any other season, this is also the first season of a new expansion and design overhaul
timid idol
pretty sure not
pure folio
i do think they jumped the gun on the addon thing.. kind of crazy they pushed it out being so unfurnished
fathom bramble
besides rtb, was there any other buff mechanic that had to be tracked this hard
not really, almost everything was trackable to a reasonable level in the cooldown manager already
cooldown manager is just ugly
cinder relic
besides rtb, was there any other buff mechanic that had to be tracked this hard
Execute for warrior, some shit for arcane
fathom bramble
and not customizable enough
timid idol
it is hella ugly
timid idol
Execute for warrior, some shit for arcane
ok yea u right arcane had some fuckery
but what was hard about execute for war? 
timid idol
yea
im serious
i have more addons than in tww
90% of my addons was WA in tww
now its split in 30 addons that do almost the same thing but worse
so why
cinder relic
but what was hard about execute for war? <:Hmm:889032126622728192>
warrior had like, 4 conditions when you pressede exceute
quaint mauve
i have 100 add ons to replicate what wa did
timid idol
warrior had like, 4 conditions when you pressede exceute
wtf
fathom bramble
and blizz still managed to make a fight that requires some kind of 3rd party stuff to execute
and people found a way to make a WA for it too
timid idol
this too
i dont feel a single difference in fight design
compared to tww
at least in raid
some dungeon bosses feel way easier tho
like lothraxion is a joke
quaint mauve
we still have WA bosses XDDDDD
timid idol
raids brick just as hard as in tww
cinder relic
THey had sudden death procs, a discounted execute cast that can be cast outside of execute. It stacked twice
There was a hero talent that cause execute to deal bonus damage, stacking up to 3 times
And then you had a talent called juggernaut where every execute you cast made execute deal more damage stacking up to 15 times.
So "when you pressed execute" was when 1 of the 3 conditiosn were met. Sudden death is at 2, Slayer stacks are at 2 or more, or if your juggernaut stacks were about to drop.
timid idol
dragons this tier is a group killer
just like many other fights before where we had addons
like the crystal guy in s3
cinder relic
Both fury and arms had to deal with this
timid idol
THey had sudden death procs, a discounted execute cast that can be cast outside ...
damn i had no clue sounds kinda ass
cinder relic
It was!
leaden sonnet
Stormbringer also had some of the most convoluted mechanics that you needed to track
timid idol
but yea, ultimately they promised alot of changes yet the game feels the same but worse
so idk...
cinder relic
And I played it all of TWW, and it's part of the reason I was very pro pruning patch overall
I think a lot of specs, rogue included, had too much "Dumb stuff" of layered conditional rules
vivid vessel
ok but
is there a single person
that will tell you they prefer new spec design
every spec is dull
boring
0 skill ceiling
timid idol
was there no world where we could have been pruned and keep underhanded
cinder relic
I like all rogue specs and all warrior specs rn
timid idol
cinder relic
paladin also fun
quaint mauve
that will tell you they prefer new spec design
i like all the classes i play personally
vivid vessel
its for housing enjoyer
quaint mauve
i do prefer old outlaw though
timid idol
i leveled ret a bit
what even changed about ret
it deadass feels the same as in s3
or is the apex at 90 that big of a change
quaint mauve
it deadass feels the same as in s3
tbf what would you prune outve the spec that already pressed like 3 buttons
timid idol
isnt it just more procs of that one big hit after wake
timid idol
tbf what would you prune outve the spec that already pressed like 3 buttons
yea lol
fathom bramble
well during wings you can get it down to 2 buttons now
leaden sonnet
0 skill ceiling
Bro just cant handle the complexities of sub rogue
leaden sonnet
(pressing macros)
timid idol
i will say this
timid idol
the dumbing down made me finally try sub
vivid vessel
and im sorry for you eleem
timid idol
so there is a small + to this prune
vivid vessel
but sub might be the worse spec
quaint mauve
Bro just cant handle the complexities of sub rogue
SS evis
vivid vessel
in all of wow rn
legit the simplest spec ever made
2 button 0 thinking 0 gameplayu
every talent node is the same thing
that does nothing
0 gameplay interaction anywhere to be found
0 hoes
spec is empty
timid idol
hey survival is somehow the best hunter spec, the prune did something good! 
leaden sonnet
All the complicated shit is just jank stemming from bugs or stupid interactions
"complicated"
Like needing to trinket 1 second before cds
vivid vessel
oh ye well im really glad that i have to wait for my haste to update after pressing my haste trinket
leaden sonnet
And needing to macro everything with dance because a 0.1-0.2s delay isnt acceptable
normal violet
Does complexity make a spec fun?
grim spear
timid idol
depends
vivid vessel
Does complexity make a spec fun?
i mean
quaint mauve
depends on what you like
vivid vessel
you gotta have something no ?
if a spec is just press button a and b
over and over
alternatively
quaint mauve
most people here enjoyed playing a high skill ceiling spec
vivid vessel
are you having fun
timid idol
well
vivid vessel
im describing sub btw
timid idol
this was ret before prune as well
and its one of the most played specs
in the entire game
fathom bramble
And needing to macro everything with dance because a 0.1-0.2s delay isnt accepta...
sometimes I wonder if sub would make more sense with dance on the gcd
alongside actually doing something when you press it
ofc
vivid vessel
hey thats my take eleem
wtf
i think dance should be on the gcd, do a big boom and give you full cp
or be a finisher
depends
leaden sonnet
sometimes I wonder if sub would make more sense with dance on the gcd
If theyre keeping the incremental dance duration increase with haste yes
fathom bramble
it just feels like the spell we have seen most often macroed into things
quaint mauve
i feel like
fathom bramble
and that was kind of the target for making things a gcd in the past
normal violet
Are they?
cinder relic
what even changed about ret
Hammer of wrath went from a button to just a judgement upgrade
normal violet
Because it's been constant ability removal over time
leaden sonnet
They almost surely will, thats kind of inevitable
timid idol
Hammer of wrath went from a button to just a judgement upgrade
wait thats crazy
is how finally a good button?
cinder relic
Because it's been constant ability removal over time
I mean
This has been the cycle of wow for 10+ years wdym
Add stuff, remove stuff
normal violet
Complexity should live in the rotation imo via talents
I dont think more buttons is better
cinder relic
Som patches are pruning patches, some are add stuff
quaint mauve
Are they?
well yeah, as they update classes and add new things things will become more complex
what guy said
latent oak
I think a lot of specs, rogue included, had too much "Dumb stuff" of layered con...
what makes wow fun is the layered conditional rules u have to compute while doing other content
cinder relic
Meh
leaden sonnet
and that was kind of the target for making things a gcd in the past
Yeah, and its especially egregious now because you kinda need to macro Dance now, its not just a comfy-press less button thing
latent oak
managing cognitive overload is like 80% of the fun of wow combat
fathom bramble
I mean between legion and dragonflight they tended to add and remove things in the same patch
leaden sonnet
But genuinely a dps increase
fathom bramble
it's different now
timid idol
is the community ready to welcome back borrowed power? 
normal violet
what makes wow fun is the layered conditional rules u have to compute while doin...
This is agree with, not adding buttons to press (or atleast not so many at once)
fathom bramble
we have evergreen new systems that don't actually add anything
and a ton of stuff that just got removed with midnight too
fathom bramble
is the community ready to welcome back borrowed power? <:PauseChamp:695171998187...
I've always been ready
the only problems with borrowed power were acquisition
not that it was borrowed
cinder relic
The issue is that unironically, most of these "complex layered rules" were just solved with a weakaura that said "Alright x y z conditions are met, now press"
latent oak
im big borrowed power fan
cinder relic
Like idt any warrior player liked how shit the execute rules for warrior was
It's not like it was, skilled or anything
U just got a "execute weakaura"
and when the weakaura lit up u pressed it
latent oak
it wasnt tho
cinder relic
Ya
timid idol
i see your point, but its gonna take 30 years for them to make specs complex in a cool way without addons again
and they dont have 30 years until the last titan
which is supposed to be this big cool finish
cinder relic
i see your point, but its gonna take 30 years for them to make specs complex in ...
People said this in MOP, and WoD, and Legion
Idk, they'll figure it out
It'll be fine
vivid vessel
The issue is that unironically, most of these "complex layered rules" were just ...
i mean thats not true, all of the crackshot gameplay is full of layered gameplay interactions and rules
it was fairly intuitive
cinder relic
So thats why I said most, not all
and realistically speaking, we could have made one for outlaw lol
Just nobody ever bothered
cinder relic
You also didn't need one for warrior, and most warrior players used it
fathom bramble
when you are use to just pressing execute when it lights up I can see why a WA would arise
cinder relic
If we made one, and told ppl in discord about it, they'd use it
normal violet
Crackshot was interesting
Rtb I think would be more interesting instead of the rng, it just cycles between stages instead and you play around the stages
Idk maybe that's a bit too much
vivid vessel
and realistically speaking, we could have made one for outlaw lol
but you can do that with everything tho ?
cinder relic
Correct but thats my point lol
cinder relic
A lot of specs in TWW had this type of overhang
vivid vessel
i mean ye
timid idol
Crackshot was interesting
Rtb I think would be more interesting instead of the ...
is this a bandit's guile refference 
vivid vessel
also unfrotunate that this overdesign is litteraly all thanks to hero talents
that nobody asked for
hero talents ruined the game
change my mind
you cant
vivid vessel
idk
wide coral
but they missed
cinder relic
it had potential for different playstyles
Well in a lot of cases, it does
vivid vessel
with 0 choice inside it
cinder relic
Lol
normal violet
is this a bandit's guile refference <:clue:1369624190256414730>
I mean not quite what I was thinking lol
vivid vessel
like you either take this or this
very limited
and i dont know how it could ever work
its just bad
wide coral
it has different playstyles, but they are majorly overshadowed by the better ones
cinder relic
I mean even for outlaw, with "bad" hero talents, the hero talents do change the playstyle
vivid vessel
they had to remove all the gameplay interactions of the talents because it was all shit
bue ye sure
timid idol
I mean not quite what I was thinking lol
yea bandit's guile would prob never work in current wow anyway
at least from my understanding, that thing would be so ass in dungeons
was from an era where dungeons didnt matter so it makes sense ig
unless they made talents to lock you at red stage
but then its just reskinned rtb 
quaint mauve
xd
rough oriole
stage 1 gameplay 
grim spear
imo
a spec's identity should be expressed through how it interacts with encounter design, not through its rotation.
rough oriole
^
vivid vessel
and then they deleted all the cool
quaint mauve
make stage 4 baseline
vivid vessel
now its no longer cool
grim spear
they've made too many specs and there just aren't that many distinct niches in the game
rough oriole
yea when it had luike impact and complexity to it
fathom bramble
this RTB just has crazy variance and idk how to fix it without a whole rework or giga buffing kir
in the past we would say RTB variance is low because the buffs all have similar value
timid idol
imo
a spec's identity should be expressed through how it interacts with encounte...
it can be expressed through its rotation too
vivid vessel
what if you could have multiple rtb buffs at once lok
timid idol
but legion did that better
vivid vessel
and you had a talent that would proc mini rtbs
fathom bramble
and now they made a RTB with 4 different buffs that are all very different
grim spear
it can be expressed through its rotation too
not this much
rough oriole
and you had a talent that would proc mini rtbs
quaint mauve
does prep reset kir cd?
grim spear
now most specs end up doing basically the same thing , throwing different colored fireballs
wide coral
and if you were in stealth it could increase the chance
vivid vessel
lets say
wide coral
and duration
vivid vessel
and then when you kir you extend them all
grim spear
and the only reason you bring one to a raid is for a buff
timid idol
they've made too many specs and there just aren't that many distinct niches in t...
the niches were more niche with spec identity over class identity in legion 
vivid vessel
and if you were in stealth it could increase the chance
thats a good one
radiant wyvern
it's fucked that you can do 800k or 400k DPS in a lust pull by no fault of your own
fathom bramble
surely you mean blade flurry
rough oriole
yea def blade flurry
normal violet
If it did, I feel like kir would never be down
timid idol
and then
you had ar while stealthed
how cool would that be
im never fucking getting underhanded back
rough oriole
If it did, I feel like kir would never be down
i would be okay with that, so i could perma play the game at least stage 3
timid idol
msot fun i ever had
cinder relic
they've made too many specs and there just aren't that many distinct niches in t...
what
There are loads of niches in the game
ITs part of the reason why rogue was so ass in this raid
vivid vessel
ye unfortunatly outlaw doesnt have any
fathom bramble
imagine if RTB worked the way a ton of people thought when they used the stage wording actually @vivid vessel
austere hawk
did prios change or am i stupid? i thought vers was decent on outlaw. or is it just not as bad as on sub now
vivid vessel
imagine if RTB worked the way a ton of people thought when they used the stage w...
ye but then its just a ramp up spec no
cinder relic
did prios change or am i stupid? i thought vers was decent on outlaw. or is it j...
Crit/haste mostly
radiant wyvern
target capped awful low target cleave what a niche
fathom bramble
well you theoretically loaded dice to always start at 2
vivid vessel
idk would feel kinda dogshit no
timid idol
excited for the patchwerk 8 target cleave raid fight where theres no downtime and nothing happens except for the 8 guys just auoting the tanks to death
fathom bramble
and then go 3-4
vivid vessel
hm
fathom bramble
back to 2 withy another loaded idk
vivid vessel
ye true i guess
timid idol
that will be outlaw's time to shine
vivid vessel
like you roll on cd till 4, and then what
timid idol
💪
vivid vessel
when does it drop
fathom bramble
after 30 seconds
timid idol
rwf will bring 8 outlaws in that fight
normal violet
What if the purpose of outlaw was to start at stage 1, build to stage 4, and then maintain stage 4
vivid vessel
ok but you dont have enough time to get to 4 stage in 30s really no
you would keep it for liek 5/10s
normal violet
Ok do that
fathom bramble
idk I'm making this up
timid idol
What if the purpose of outlaw was to start at stage 1, build to stage 4, and the...
isnt this just arms with it's stacks
vivid vessel
and reroll late for 4
rough oriole
outlaw ramp spec 
vivid vessel
so you have high uptime on 3 and 4
normal violet
isnt this just arms with it's stacks
Never played arms
quaint mauve
idk why it doesnt
that’s what i was thinking
vivid vessel
then 20s of ramp up
quaint mauve
it would
vivid vessel
honestly
wide coral
then you keep refreshing 4?
quaint mauve
feel pretty good
vivid vessel
i would vibe with it maybe
wide coral
or have a debuff called out of luck that you cant keep refreshing 4s
vivid vessel
feels terribel to just be stuck froever on 2
withotu any way of exiting it
so ass
grim spear
There are loads of niches in the game
low target cleave, big with small, burst aoe, sustained aoe, pure st, st with minor cleave
come on, it's all just different damage "models", where's the class and spec fantasy and expression in all this?
normal violet
or have a debuff called out of luck that you cant keep refreshing 4s
I think we should get rid of the word luck in outlaws vocabulary
quaint mauve
or like have a cd to guarantee high rolling
vivid vessel
or like have a cd to guarantee high rolling
ye its called loaded dice
fathom bramble
then you keep refreshing 4?
Roll the bones now adds the new roll to the current stage when cast at 3 or lower, this resets the duration to 30 seconds when it triggers. Casting roll the bones at stage 4(Jackpot!) still uses a new random stage as normal.
that exact wording
think about it
rough oriole
i guess that would plan out KiR a little bit more
instead of praying you get a good roll and then just settling for a stage 2
when you dont
cinder relic
low target cleave, big with small, burst aoe, sustained aoe, pure st, st with mi...
..?
What are you even saying
vivid vessel
i guess that would plan out KiR a little bit more
i mean that would prolly replace kir
its kinda similar design
timid idol
fury is real? war is finally fun again?
rough oriole
fair enough
vivid vessel
ye
vivid vessel
competeing with shadow priest <:FeelsStrongMan:696386141330341909>
whats this
rough oriole
yea i see what you mean
vivid vessel
this is points in keys again
timid idol
m+ over last week
rough oriole
that would be a cool way of changing it around
timid idol
vivid vessel
the useless chart
that means nothing
wonder why we cant have a damage chart
for keys
it would still mean nothing but
at least we could argue about it
timid idol
outlaw op
vivid vessel
interesting data
points but locked at 15
and there is still differences
what does it mean!
grim spear
..?
i'm saying every form of gameplay in this game revolves around one thing: doing damage
and the way you do damage is all strikingly similar
you just keep pressing buttons, some specs just have higher burst, some have better aoe or something
so naturally, the only thing left to differentiate specs is rotation
and step by step that leads to overdesign
cinder relic
What you are saying makes no sense
fathom bramble
how on earth could you give every spec a unique real niche that has nothing to do with dealing damage
that sounds like a design nightmare
grim spear
timid idol
holy outlaw op nerf now
cinder relic
how on earth could you give every spec a unique real niche that has nothing to d...
Thats called death grip
fathom bramble
now just do it 36 more times lol
cinder relic
Of course!
inner yacht
what ur saying is like ofc outlaw is bad they used all the cool niches already but thats not how it works
they can make it good if they try
grim spear
now just do it 36 more times lol
that's part of the point
36 is way too many
normal violet
Grappling hook can now grip a target towards you
timid idol
does this mean theres only comp that ever timed 24 or
grim spear
they should reduce it
normal hawk
Stealthing past packs doesn’t really work anymore
radiant wyvern
Grappling hook can now grip a target towards you
sand berry
they can cut their work in half by removing hero talents
quaint mauve
Stealthing past packs doesn’t really work anymore
i think literally the only shroud skip my group uses is on AA
which isn’t necessary if you do the rescue thing that people do to skip what we skip
:p
fathom bramble
they should reduce it
too late
wide coral
Roll the bones now adds the new roll to the current stage when cast at 3 or lowe...
yeah, got it, sounds great like that
fathom bramble
the game would likely die instantly if they tried to reduce the number of specs enough for that scheme to be feasible
wide coral
I was going for a flavor like mechanic for downtime after a burst window
steel shadow
do we know if the weapon upgrade thing is gonna work for dw or if we only get mh while 2h classes get a bigger bump
radiant wyvern
do we know if the weapon upgrade thing is gonna work for dw or if we only get mh...
ofc it's only going to be mh
fathom bramble
given the wording of the upgrade thingies you may likely be able to collect as many as you want per week
fathom bramble
same wording as the catalyst charge drop unlock
grim spear
the original decision to turn the three talent trees into three specs was already ridiculous
if hero talents aren't even more ridiculous
fathom bramble
dw specs would just have to farm out more of them
cinder relic
What are you even talking about man
What does hero talents and talent trees have to do with the idea of "Removing specs from the game and then giving every spec a unique, non DPS niche"
steel shadow
dw specs would just have to farm out more of them
what flavor text is this i cant find it
fathom bramble
it was in blizzards blog for the patch itself
let me try and find it rq
highlighted the relevant portion
timid idol
this unlocks this week no?
steel shadow
i hope its not capped
timid idol
maybe i skip vault this reset