outlaw

[vivid vessel]

and on lura

its 33% chance i get an item i need tmrw

and then next week its 50% chance

66% chance i get both the items i want

[random stirrup]

lura reclear gonna be diabolical

[vivid vessel]

acutally easy

[cobalt drift]

@vivid vessel i see you have guidon equipped rn, is it cuz you dont have feather?

or

[vivid vessel]

yes

no plume

featherless

[random stirrup]

haha noob

[vivid vessel]

but blizzard will reward me next reclear

with mythic one

dw about it

[cobalt drift]

is solarflare 289 fine?

or

[vivid vessel]

ye

next week you can inspect me

i will have bis gear

you can copy my char

to do midnight tier 1 sim

admin character

[dire rampart]

still have ranger and delve trinket

both heroic

never tried simming myth guidon with that but i guess its better?

[stuck sparrow]

the renown trinket likely better

or sit in skyreach jail more

[dire rampart]

its the fiber

[marsh minnow]

Death''s Arrival (the 5 second window to re-use Grappling Hook without costing another charge) appears to be missing from the Blizzard CDM. Is that right? Is there another way that you guys are using to track the re-grapple window?

[dire rampart]

its crit, simmed it and its about the same

[stuck sparrow]

oh that thing looked ok

idk i barely delved

[dire rampart]

once a week

[vivid vessel]

do you need to track it ?

[stuck sparrow]

i did it alot in tww but its so gutted this expac

[vivid vessel]

kinda useless

outlaw has cdr on grapple

you already barely need that since we have 2 charges of grapple

so tracking it is nto really useful in any way

[stuck sparrow]

ngl the only time arrival is useful imo

[vivid vessel]

and most of the times you will use it naturally if you do normal grapple things

like grapple out of thing

[stuck sparrow]

is bgs to hook 4x

[vivid vessel]

into grapple in

[stuck sparrow]

i do wish retractable was baseline

though

[steel shadow]

did your guild not prio you one or just no drops

[vivid vessel]

oh we killed it once

and then extended for lura

its the normal strat tho

no point reclearing beloren

oh and ye we did like 1 hc beloren split the entire season

[long bramble]

1st 19 carried

is fury actually so low in overall?

[solid cape]

boss damage tanks their overall if it isn't a cleave fight

[dire rampart]

were they slayer

[long bramble]

no

[long bramble]

i mean it was pit

we had always some piss around bosses

[solid cape]

oh true

only ST is the first

[pure folio]

no people pull funnel into first

[solid cape]

right but at high keys they don't live long enough to consider it multi target do they? Maybe, I'm not super versed in high high keys. I just have general knowledge of some specs because I can't decide on an alt

part of why I'm here anyway lol

[pure folio]

the first boss's funnel cant die

with a monk tank, u para the necrolyte and pull all the little guys in

[solid cape]

OH that

[pure folio]

mhm

[solid cape]

crazy work

speaking of though, how is outlaws ST now after all the adjustments from midnight and after? Last time I looked at it, was kinda lackluster without cleave

[pure folio]

outlaws st is very good

its talent setup for aoe vs raid st is minor so its one of the higher st in m+

[solid cape]

Nice, I saw it was pretty common to bring alongside phys damage comps. And that's pretty cool, I haven't seen an outlaw in raid are they good in this tier?

only rogue I know plays sub almost exclusively

[pure folio]

Not particularly to be honest

none of the fights feel good or fun as outlaw, and the damage profile is like average

last fight of vs is just impossible

and theres no point in playing it on beloren

[solid cape]

right on, so guess it's a sub angle? can't win em all. I find itso hard to pick an alt because I am gonna have to pug most of it's stuff so I feel it needs to stand out a bit or I'll spend all my off time standing around trying to get into content haha

[midnight granite]

Outlaw is fine in raid lol

[pure folio]

^ outlaw is fine

[midnight granite]

Only fight outlaw is not ideal is belo

[pure folio]

it just doesnt really excel in any fights

[solid cape]

aaah fair nuff

[midnight granite]

Rogue is shit period bruh

[solid cape]

LOL

[pure folio]

ya

just play what u like

[midnight granite]

Outlaw is equal to both other specs with thr exception of belo and maybe lura

[pure folio]

i think outlaw is fine on lura

crown and belo r like.. not fun

[fathom bramble]

law good on lura

prob best rogue spec last week

[pure folio]

ya thats what i thought

[fathom bramble]

but now... idk

sub buff law nerf so might be sub now

[pure folio]

im sure its fine still

[fathom bramble]

but law is plenty good still

[vivid vessel]

ye outlaw was the best spec for a week

had to buff sub

[pure folio]

NONONONO

i dont want to play sub

i like having more than two buttons

[vivid vessel]

sorry

cant have outlaw be the spec of choice on a boss

for more than 1 week

have to nerf the spec

and buff sub

[pure folio]

buff warrior and buff sub

ty

[trail sparrow]

best I can do is 10% aura buff for ret

[cinder relic]

Sub has poop timers esp now

It's like fine but it's not ideal a lot of the time

You end up floating a lot of dances because of rp

[fathom bramble]

their performance on the fight seems to be fine in spite of that though]

[vivid vessel]

well outlaw got nerfed by 2/3%

and sub got buffed by 4

7% diff

sub got buffed by 7% ??

wtf

drop a wowhead arctile

now !

[fathom bramble]

yeah like outlaw was the choice last week but a 6/7% swing is a lot

[cinder relic]

Yeah it's like fine

[fathom bramble]

obviously data for lura is questionable rn but realistically sub should be better on the fight

even if neither spec is some big dam giga spec

either way it's close enough that you can obviously play either

[vivid vessel]

also i think data is omega sqewed by last phase no

like

if you have deaths last phase

hbut still kill boss

[fathom bramble]

true

[vivid vessel]

you will do omega more dam

[fathom bramble]

I think they should normalize the amp in p4

[vivid vessel]

or if you have bad p1 damage cause bad team

[fathom bramble]

it's a fake amp anyway

[vivid vessel]

and you have longer p3

so more amp aswell

like its hard to just look at wcl

without taking a deeper look

[fathom bramble]

outlaws main advantage is that grapple is an objectively superior spell to step

[vivid vessel]

i mean

perma sprint

is also op

[fathom bramble]

and some of the shit I did with the seed would have caused a wipe without grapple

[vivid vessel]

on that fight

imo

[fathom bramble]

sometimes you do a bad drop and need actual snap movement

not sprint

[vivid vessel]

ye

[fathom bramble]

and yeah sub has like no sprint up time too

[vivid vessel]

i just mean always have sprint to dodge glaives

is kinda op

[fathom bramble]

very true

we also would have been tankier if they didn't take it away after 2 weeks....

I'm scared of the ticking damage on rekill

so ready to simply perish

[vivid vessel]

does it even work

[fathom bramble]

yes

[vivid vessel]

its a debuff on target

ok

are you sure

[fathom bramble]

the damage from holding a crystal is sourced from lura

[vivid vessel]

i see

btw have you seen the bug lok

[fathom bramble]

which one lol

[vivid vessel]

like fazed is 6s

instead of 10

[fathom bramble]

yeah

idk how that slipped in

[vivid vessel]

idk how that even happened

ye

[fathom bramble]

someone did a find and replace 10 - 6 on the entire spell gg

[vivid vessel]

also lok

how funny is it

that ehy basically removed supercharger

like er cps

and we still have er cps bug

can never escape it

[fathom bramble]

trapped here forever

[vivid vessel]

cant wait for the next cp scaling effect

that will surely work with supercharger

from the start !

for sure for sure

[fathom bramble]

we were actually beating warriors on the graph for a second there

probably going to be back by assassination on this in the next 2 weeks

imagine if rogue had no cheat death

like look at the difference between fire and the other 2 mages

also mages and WW need some of their defensives back

[vivid vessel]

ye thats rogue in keys

[fathom bramble]

because that is doomed

[vivid vessel]

rogue need to have cheat + elus

[pure folio]

give back feint cdr

[vivid vessel]

well no

evasion cdr

feint cdr is so useless omegalul

i cant even press one feint per fight without running out of energy

[pure folio]

whaaat

well

[vivid vessel]

you have 2 charges bro

[pure folio]

yea they remove the energy cost too surely 🤓

[vivid vessel]

when do you ever need mroe feints

[pure folio]

LOL

vexamus

[vivid vessel]

i need a real def that isnt draining my energy

[pure folio]

fuck that boss

[vivid vessel]

idk just have to be slightly smart about it

and its not bad

feint on normal orbs

evasion + late feint to cover the aoe when you have aoe + orb

[fathom bramble]

give back feint on sprint lol

no gcd no cost

[vivid vessel]

or just cloak late to cover orb + aope

and then you have a set without eva or cloak

you double feint it

easy as that

[pure folio]

so if u dont have all those up for that boss ur just cooked

[vivid vessel]

cds come back lil bro

ytou always have enough

unless noob

[fathom bramble]

just be a dh and survive without pressing anything at all

DH has the lowest external healing required on our lura kill and he is carrying a crystal

absolutely disqusting passive tankiness

[vivid vessel]

defensiveness tuning

in wow

is legit cooked

every season

[fathom bramble]

they decided leech and magic resistance were demon hunters thematic bonuses

the 2 best possible things

with no tradeoffs

[river wing]

wish DH had never been...

[dawn talon]

i think their theme for dh this expansion was "sell the expansion to casul and midcore players who think they look cool and don't like dying"

[river wing]

I mean they initially gave DDH a button that burned their HP

then had to hastily rework it into a self-heal

[river wing]

checked it
what the actual fuck, how is a class allowed to have 16% baseline magic dmg down

and since they are
how tf are we still sitting here with a flimsy 5% phys dmg reduction ("your leather is now halfway to mail, gj")

[fathom bramble]

go look at the external healing required for any of your guilds kills on anything

assuming you have a ddh

[river wing]

one of them is, IG
tbh havoc also has those percentages so IDK even

[wintry solar]

Me when the hero classes are inherently more tanky :O

[dim parrot]

Lolll

[fathom bramble]

tell that to monk lol

[vivid vessel]

me when i cant die cause lore said so

[river wing]

I mean Monk isn't a hero class

[wintry solar]

You play an RPG so idk

Get used to it?

[vivid vessel]

idk how popo keep brining up this bullshit lol

so stupid

[river wing]

it's the only "normal" new class IG

[vivid vessel]

like

ye guys

dk is meta every season

cant die

[wintry solar]

It's true though

[vivid vessel]

have infnite utiliuty

but its normal

[wintry solar]

Ye

[vivid vessel]

its in the lore bro

[wintry solar]

Take it up with blizz, their words

[wintry phoenix]

DKs were actually disgusting when they were released

Made everything else look like a bunch of clowns

[fathom bramble]

only be technicality

and by the same old definition of hero class I don't think dk is even a hero class anymore

[river wing]

they were disgusting for the entirety of WotLK more like

[wintry solar]

Aren't evokers a hero class?

Maybe that's why they have the only support spec

Idk

[spiral trench]

what stat do you all take in Algethar

[fathom bramble]

hero class was just a class you couldn't start as(need a character of x level on the account to make one) and they all started at a higher level

[river wing]

I mean then no class is, you can just make one from the getgo

[river wing]

dem crits

[fathom bramble]

but now you start at 10 on dh/dk/monk anyway

and I think they lifted the requirement of having a high lvl char on the account too

[river wing]

they did yeah

[west ridge]

hero class has not mattered for a long time

[fathom bramble]

monk at the time wasn't a hero class but they got massively increased experience for 1 hr each day instead

stacking if you just did the daily and logged back out

so you could get like 12 hrs of it an level all at once after 2 weeks

[wintry solar]

Acquisition and design are 2 different things though

[river wing]

well yes because the req was what, 55 for DK? which, after the squish, became like...20? i.e. pointless

[wintry solar]

Calling evoker a hero class is a massive stretch

[vivid vessel]

hero class is fine in outdoor content

wow has evolved

a huge part of the game now is purely competitive content

[fathom bramble]

well it's the same thing as dh

use to start at a high level

[river wing]

naw
by the time they tried to introduce the term
it was already wrong to have it

[fathom bramble]

now starts at 10

[river wing]

bc TBC and WotLK kinda killed outdoor in their own way each

and then Cata finished the job

[fathom bramble]

it was meant to just be a character that was already starting as a seasoned hero

or really just to let people try the new class easier

[wintry solar]

I mean what "hero" is evoker based off of?

[fathom bramble]

it doesn't mean anything beyond that

[solid cape]

monk only starts at 10 as an allied race

[fathom bramble]

idk it's a terrible name for the headstart that hero classes are meant to be given

[solid cape]

IIRC

[fathom bramble]

blame blizz ig

[wintry solar]

"btw this race has been in a cave the whole time and their power is they have all the powers"

[river wing]

I mean they started the idea of hero classes out as "it could be more powerful"
then realized it would be a massive shitshow and backtracked hard before release
and it still ended up being ridic broken for the entire expac

[long barn]

@vivid vessel did SUF kill the import profile?

I don’t see it anywhere in the settings

[river wing]

mostly because they legit thought they could just make every spec both a DPS and a tank based on what talent combos you take
which was a failure of an idea to begin with

[vivid vessel]

have to check advanced settings

[long barn]

Ahhh

Got it

[fathom bramble]

if this were the true definition then monk would be a hero class anyway

hero class is a seasoned hero(even if the seasoning is all genetic engineering) not anything else

[river wing]

also ngl - DK is kinda a failure of design at the ground level because, well, it really did NOT expand on the idea of DKs
its specs are all facets of what a DK is, rather than (as most decently niche-designed specs happen to be, like Shaman or Monk) an evolution of a baseline class

but that's a general WoW problem, it never fucking knows whether specs are supposed to be "just a focus on some of the things a class does" or a mini-class in itself

[wintry solar]

They're based on a prominent character in lore. There is not Arthas or Illidan equivalent to a monk

[river wing]

where the former is what vanilla did, and the latter is the superior option but sadly something they only arrived at by Cataclysm and never really managed to apply properly to every spec

[river wing]

literally Chen Stormstout

[fathom bramble]

actual chen hater smh

[wintry solar]

If that's the best you got then my point stands

[river wing]

guy isn't as powerful sure
but that's the prototype

[wintry solar]

Just monk in general

[west ridge]

why does it matter if dk, dh, or evokers are hero classes or not?

[fathom bramble]

it doesn't unless you are trying to argue that hero classes have some kind of inherent and deserved advantage in tuning

[west ridge]

im pretty sure the only time you couldve made that arugment was wotlk dk

[fathom bramble]

and using that stance to dismiss criticism of demon hunters design having no downsides to their extreme magic resistance and healing

magic resistance and leech are just thematically fitting to DH and should be part of their kit

blizz just gave them an entire extra kit on top of it

which has nothing to do with being a hero class

[dawn talon]

i mean, chen was very story relevant in wc3, was one of the first characters to get a dedicated comic, and had like 3? (i was a kid i can't remember anymore lol) explicit references to him in vanilla-wrath

[west ridge]

ye theres been times where dh's flop even though they have leech and magic res

i know this might blow your mind to some of th new players but there was a time where dk did not have godlike defensives

[fathom bramble]

yeah that too

dk use to have no speed no defensives

[river wing]

I missed all of those ngl

[fathom bramble]

dk actually spent a lot of years quite bad

outside of blood

[west ridge]

yep

[river wing]

played WotLK and Cata, missed everything between that and TWW (played some MoP in 2013 but can't say it was serious so IDK much from that era)

[wintry solar]

Chen was a hidden hero that you had to find. Maybe buy at the Mercenary ahop

[river wing]

so every time I'm around DK is just ballbustingly broken

[west ridge]

now they are super strong sure but even with the dragonflight talent reword they didnt really become meta in keys until tww

[wintry solar]

IBF not breaking stuns and only immuning them

Some people claim that's peak.

Smh

[strange kelp]

It was to pay for their sins committed in Wrath when they literally were the "hero" class

[fathom bramble]

rogue use to be the tankiest melee in raids

but everyone else got tankier

and we didn't

[west ridge]

^

everyone got powercrept

except for us

[fathom bramble]

we just have feint still

[river wing]

no CD 20 energy feint for 50% aoe and 30% st reduction

[fathom bramble]

and actually a worse cheat death and cloak than we use to

[west ridge]

if anything we got less powerful defenisviely

feint didnt use to ahve a cd

[river wing]

90s CD, 1 min cloak

[west ridge]

cloak had lower cd

evasion cdr

etc etc etc

[wintry solar]

Evasion being a 50% chance to dodge

[fathom bramble]

fun fact: evasion is actually a 200% chance to dodge

for some reason

[shadow trellis]

cloak just doesnt even immune random things anymore

[strange kelp]

Is that to like counter stuff with higher hit chance?

[shadow trellis]

i feel like half the aoe spells on salhadar i still take damage through cloak

[grim spear]

The only true hero class this game has ever had is the vanilla warrior

[fathom bramble]

potentially

I don't recall a legit reason

[west ridge]

like in bfa rogues were considered the kings of m+ utility

[strange kelp]

Idk wrath was pretty bad where DK was like doubling other specs

[west ridge]

you had shroud, single target cc, stealth, vanish etc etc etc

[river wing]

idk
vanilla warrior was terrible for 59 levels (best gear for level patched that to "okayish" until you got 5 more levels) and then anywhere between terrible to excellent depending on gear

[west ridge]

now its like most people dont even remember shroud exists

[fathom bramble]

they just gave a ton of stuff 'cannot miss' this tier for some reason which makes cloak fail to resist stuff

for some reason cloak isn't an immunity for the last 4 seconds it is a 100% chance to resist

which causes things to miss

so the "cannot miss" tag breaks it

[strange kelp]

It was terrible during vanilla as well, the super warrior we know now took like 10+ years of private server theory crafting

[river wing]

yep

(i played on those servers, I should know lmao)

[wintry solar]

For the better tbh, dipshits keep breaking stealth

[river wing]

IIRC there was a guy called Basikk or smth like that
who theorycrafted at least half of what made Fury a menace at 60 in 2019 Classic

[strange kelp]

Yeah I mean I never saw anyone on actual vanilla using fury spec DW tank spec or the shit we see now

[river wing]

eh, I mean you still had Arms oneshotting people on real vanilla

once they got actually decent gear

[west ridge]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26ACEQmdslA

[strange kelp]

I mean you also had Enh wind fury one shot as well

[grim spear]

The only tank, dps that's two tiers above everything else, what else do you ask?

[river wing]

charge, pray for two crits (auto+MS), if it happens target explodes

[river wing]

and that took 15 years to actually make work

[west ridge]

but you are right @strange kelp people really started figuring stuff out but that point tbc was going to come out so barely anyone even knew about fury warr

[grim spear]

Been watching them do vanilla Naxx speed runs recently
some 38 min comps look exactly like:

[strange kelp]

Why did you link a PowerPoint slide show

[west ridge]

lol

thats an acutally vanilla video

[wintry solar]

Based tbh

[vivid vessel]

is this considered peak of gaming 14 years ago

[west ridge]

in vanilla

it was

[vivid vessel]

thats crazy

he even clicked a spell at some point

[wintry solar]

They got the contractually obligated 1 rogue

[vivid vessel]

like i have no clue how his spec works

[wintry solar]

Was probably assa iirc

[vivid vessel]

and i know he is making mistakes

• he has 0 apm bro no cap

[wintry solar]

But I do believe it was Sub back then

[vivid vessel]

video goes crazy tho

when he zoom in on the crit

insane

[west ridge]

yep @vivid vessel back the videos were all about showing the highest crits

[river wing]

that's 2006 energy

[west ridge]

back in vanilla rogues only played combat

sub wasnt a thing

[river wing]

combat swords or daggers was the only real spec in endgame yeah

[strange kelp]

It's fine, the vanilla dmg breakdown is like all auto attack and one button anyway

[river wing]

sub was pvp

[wintry solar]

In dungeons maybe but idr combat being a thing in raid until cata before daggers

Oh right pvp

[west ridge]

brother

combat was the only raid spec

[wintry solar]

That's what I was thinking of

[grim spear]

wow back then was basically a strategy RPG. Later on, people felt that builds were all just copied anyways

[west ridge]

in pvp ye sub

[wintry solar]

Yes that's what I just said

[grim spear]

and the gameplay became more action based

[shadow trellis]

Vanilla balancing looks so dystopian, i dont know how can people play this outside of Nostalgia

[wintry solar]

They somehow do

[west ridge]

its just boomer vibes bro

[wintry solar]

Idk how either

[west ridge]

for alot of people it just clicks

[wintry solar]

People complain about balancing now, and rightfully so, but it was so much worse.

[strange kelp]

Because they love running 45m on ground mounts to dungeons to fill up all the free time they have

[river wing]

I mean
it wasn't really like that back then, right now it's just a 15-yr meta

[grim spear]

It's fine to play Vanilla as a solo RPG, even for now

[river wing]

if we had Midnight Classic in 2035
we'd also see raids that are nothing but DDH

[grim spear]

but the end game part

no fun

[wintry solar]

I meant the % difference between top and bottom dps is a lot lower than back then

They actually vibe tuned back then

[grim spear]

By today's standards, probably 99% of people back in Vanilla couldn't really be said to know how to play the game at all

[river wing]

this number rapidly declined tbh, by the end of Wrath people started to expect that you actually do know how to play once you're max level

[wintry solar]

They should shut down wow so I can go outside

[grim spear]

Back then, rogue was basically just keeping SnD up and spending extra CP on Evis

and that was already considered the most complex class.
Probably not even 20 APM

most people I ran into couldn't even do half my DPS. Not one in ten had a correct talent build, and nobody understood how to gear properly

oh right, they didn't even have a working damage meter to know how badly they were playing

[strange kelp]

They still do 😉

[wintry solar]

Naw

They are just

Insanely biased

[strange kelp]

I'll settle for an insanely biased with a touch of vibe

[wintry solar]

Deal

[river wing]

naw, it's more like...25-30, I'd guess

[wintry solar]

They're biased and they vibe tune up

We both win

[strange kelp]

True compromise

[river wing]

if the only thing you ever press is SS, that's 15 APM already, and sometimes you do Evis or SnD, which cost less than 40 energy, so...
20 to 25 sounds reasonable

[strange kelp]

I can't see it without there being a large portion of vibe with some of these reworks

[wintry solar]

I think it's a mixed bag because when they do have time they actually do a good job.

But how often do they have time

[river wing]

but they don't have time now
tbh these 8-week cycles are fucked up

[gusty dew]

Is guidon useable for outlaw in m+？

[strange kelp]

Yeah but then there is stuff like this MM rework that just dropped

[wintry solar]

It's so bad

[strange kelp]

Like numbers aside

The logic isn't there

[wintry solar]

I cannot comment on this

I'm out of the loop

[strange kelp]

Its an exaggeration but it's like making an outlaw rework but then deciding BtE doesn't work with blade flurry

[river wing]

I would legit not mind them going to 10-week or 12-week cycles, like half the shit they add is unnecessary anyways
Ritual Sites? more like a pain in my sides...

[wintry solar]

I see I got you

[grim spear]

the best vanilla build was combat dagger, so you were pressing 60 energy backstab

[wintry solar]

The new turbo boost is so annoying

[river wing]

arguable
combat swords were usually competitive

[strange kelp]

I'm big fan of the bonus roll system but this ilvl increase shit and the new raid dropping random stat 296 gear is just hard pass

[wintry solar]

I don't feel like I'm missing out by not increasing my ilvl tbh

[long barn]

@vivid vessel - I’m getting a details blocked error. You have that issue?

[wintry solar]

It's so Zzz rn

[grim spear]

i wasn't using simc back then, so basically idk

[wintry solar]

RiP thotbot

[river wing]

idk
I kinda dislike all this shit they do with gear
but then again I am the kind of person who legitimately thinks FFXIV has it 95% right

and WoW has strived to cultivate a very different approach

[strange kelp]

It's getting so much better

[river wing]

wym, FFXIV's system or what

[strange kelp]

Yes, they are removing tomestones and ilvl can be shared between all jobs

[river wing]

well we can go and check current logs IG, might have both swords and daggers in top-10

[viscid shuttle]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[river wing]

oh, that
yeah should be nice

tomestones aren't really gone, just subsumed into the new system tho

like that's essentially what the new weekly activity log will provide, just in a different manner

[strange kelp]

I hadn't seen the actual new solution yet, but it solves the one major issue I had with the game which wow was better at which is alt job/class progression

[grim spear]

i remember combat dagger had lower gear requirements, it was significantly better when your gear was bad

anyway.

[river wing]

eh, maybe
we'll see
but frankly this sounds like a prelude to changing gear acquisition also, i.e. perhaps the progression won't always be crafted->tome->savage

[strange kelp]

That's fine but wow you can just run simultaneous classes, FF you are literally gear blocked on progressing alt jobs

[river wing]

it's a different pattern is all

[strange kelp]

Despite the you can play all jobs selling point I play way more alts on wow because of it

[river wing]

like you can have all crafted for all jobs in XIV

[strange kelp]

You can and it's incredibly expensive if you don't invest weeks of play time to make it

[river wing]

and unless you have tons of time, you ain't gearing shit in WoW on more than 2 chars maybe

[strange kelp]

You can do 2-3 easily and with bonus roll systems you could easily do more

[river wing]

the current patch is maybe the first where gearing more than a couple seems reasonable for time investment

[strange kelp]

Once you get past like 200-250ish and it's just keys + raid it's not a huge amount per character

[river wing]

getting to 250 is the easy part

[strange kelp]

The job system on paper seems very cool but it's actually way more restrictive imo

[river wing]

only for doing Savage ngl

[strange kelp]

Well yeah but nothing below that really matters imo

Like you can do anything below that in any gear

It's like wow normal raid

[river wing]

weeeell, Extremes are more like Heroic

but there's not much content around Extreme tuning

which is something they're promising to fix so another win for XIV

since Extreme is like
the most fun diff for me, you still have to prog it but it's not taking you multiple resets

well, the first couple Savage bosses are sometimes close too, depends on the specific tier

Kokytos/Panda was terrible lmao, but like Eden 9/10S were pretty nice

anyway in case of WoW you're kinda blocked once you hit 270-ish (this patch)
it's just that 270 is enough to do anything reasonable and now there's bonus rolls which kinda bring that up to 280-ish

but previously IDK, like in TWW early on in the season you'd be stuck with Hero 3/6 gear and even getting an alt to that point would be a hundred hours unless you had a group setup that's very favourable for trades or you'd jumped right into that content with your levelling trash and adventurer pieces IDK

[wooden escarp]

Hi

Guys what's the best Raid buff for outlaw in keys

If can make a priory for us

[tender wedge]

skyfury

[quaint mauve]

ima assume like monk,warr,sham?

[tender wedge]

then battle shout

[wooden escarp]

Not Monk?

[tender wedge]

that's raid to be fair

but you can make some assumptions

hunters mark less in keys for example

[strange kelp]

Wtf does chaos brand buff?

[frail veldt]

magic damage

so I guess poisons?

[strange kelp]

No i meant for outlaw

[frail veldt]

im surprised its even 0.4%

[strange kelp]

Oh true

They are nature

Crazy you can get so much dmg from comp

[river wing]

IIRC outlaw is one of the most comp-dependent specs out there

[river wing]

FB coins also count as magic IIRC

[frail veldt]

oh true

[strange kelp]

Most other specs are more split in dmg output

[frail veldt]

cosmic damage

I bet as trickster its less than 0.4%

[river wing]

likely so

3% of 5% can't be 0.4%

[frail veldt]

thats what im thinkin yeah

[indigo token]

ughhh

I kinda wanna play outlaw for the mobility in raid

but I despise cloud cover

[strange kelp]

Just do it

[river wing]

just play FB

it's like 2% behind on ST?

[indigo token]

is it viable?

im on M vorasius

[strange kelp]

Just perma tricks the other rogue to solidify your spot

[river wing]

#outlaw message

2% behind Trickster
we have variance larger than that ngl

[indigo token]

"hard to give up even if you hate trickster"

[river wing]

so just get lucky and beat out Trickster as FB

[indigo token]

this has happened before btw

the mathematically more viable talent for the spec feels awful

back in TWW S2

[strange kelp]

But is it awful enough to play sub?

[river wing]

that's the nature of hero talents ngl

[indigo token]

i hate it

[midnight granite]

Pistol shot is fire

[river wing]

one of them is gonna feel worse
one of them is gonna be better numbers-wise
sometimes its the same one

[tender wedge]

Fatebound feels gross after trickster though idk why

Maybe I had bad rolls

[river wing]

idk, ran birb on wed with FB

felt good

[tender wedge]

This was in keys to be fair

[indigo token]

idk how pressing SnD in opener can ever feel better than fatebound

[river wing]

also a few low-ish keys, still felt good

[arctic merlin]

there's more of a chance to make a mistake on trickster, that 2% is probably if you play both perfectly and fb is much easier to play well

[indigo token]

ugh

my trinkets are all for sin anyway

i hate rogue

[buoyant stratus]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/q6NgJPk3fVDyb9pv?fight=5&type=damage-done

Had some god rolls

In the vex trash area

430avg dps lmfao

[long barn]

Anyone know how to move or remove the yellow pistol shot shit on blizz ui

[gaunt phoenix]

I believe a macro wont show it

like just

#showtooltip
/cast pistol shot

If you mean the gunpowder effect thing in the center of the screen, that is spell alert opacity in settings

[long barn]

Ty

[tough ridge]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[rancid harbor]

we are op now?

[shell fossil]

does premed reset when the key starts?

it do cool

[abstract frost]

if i have 24% haste, am I fine or do i delete and reroll?

[indigo token]

M VORASIUS DOWN
RAHHHHHHHH

[cerulean portal]

why

[warped crown]

!wa

[ornate heath]

Resources:

• ArcUI / BetterCDM - common suites for buff/cd customization
• WangBar - displays CPs/energy, customize colors per point, faster than Sensei
• MSUF - recommendation for unit frames
• Platynator - recommendation for nameplates (Jundies Profile)
  Misc:
• Clickable Raid Buffs - for poisons
• WilduTools - random QoL like melee range indicator, track cursor
• Mute Cold Blood sound - if we ever go back to this talent

[gleaming path]

no xD

[cerulean portal]

bruh

[proven ocean]

Zac is noob

!

[shell fossil]

https://tenor.com/view/look-looking-derry-girls-gif-19570865

[frail veldt]

I wish

would be cool

[strange kelp]

Yo @keen belfry did you ever update your wang bar for other classes?

[cerulean portal]

gpt says i need 40% mastery

min 25%

ok

[keen belfry]

Not really cuh

[strange kelp]

sadge, the more I play outlaw the more I cant stand sensei - but you dont support surv 🙁

[buoyant stratus]

You can have both installed

And just load them per character

[steep shell]

!stats

[ornate heath]

Outlaw's stat prio is generally Crit > Haste* > Vers >= Mastery.

• You need ~21-23% haste for energy, this has priority over crit. That's the haste on your stat page after talents/buffs/flask.
• Crit is then your best stat until you approach ~40%, from there random vers or mastery pieces will be similar.
• You have to use Raidbots Top Gear to determine the exact combination of pieces to use.

[strange kelp]

hmm that may be the play

[wintry solar]

It's okay, the devs don't either

[strange kelp]

Truuuue

[wintry solar]

I sure do wish they could figure out what they want to do with it

[strange kelp]

To bad all the player feedback is just people complaining about boomstick being a gun instead of a spear

[sudden comet]

valid

[wintry solar]

They just lack imagination

[radiant wyvern]

popo =

[distant mica]

should i craft ring with embelish or a armor slot with embelish

[wintry solar]

Poop

https://tenor.com/view/cat-rrrr-rrr-gato-chat-gif-18611975

[twilit axle]

Where can I check what the current top 1% of M+ players are at?

Is there a way to filter Raider IO?

[wintry solar]

Murlok.io I think has M+

I've only seen people check it for pvp. I don't know about IO scores either but it's worth to check out anyway. May have what you're looking for

[twilit axle]

[ancient cobalt]

ya sub looks p good on lura

the akari does like so much more dam or somethin

i would prob play it but my sub gear turned out so bad

[cerulean portal]

whats the akari?

[rugged bluff]

Hey guys whats the first item to craft for outlaw. Got a myth main hander. Im leaning towards dagger in offhand with the hunt. Would that be correct?

[cerulean portal]

do u have bonus rolls?

try to get dagger from pit

[rugged bluff]

Ye got 5 left. think its worth rolling all those first?

[normal violet]

Honestly, if you have 5 rolls, pit in general is just a great place to roll since everything is crit/haste basically including the dagger

[rugged bluff]

ye basically everything is a upgrade in there atm

[gaunt phoenix]

prolly craft helm and some item you cant get from pit

[cerulean portal]

pit is bis for outlaw

[rugged bluff]

ye awesome. Thank you for the help, appreciate it!

[ornate heath]

Atrophic /Feint in Raid: > Click to Open <

[frail veldt]

Anyone else have issues with the "tank assist" buff thing that mobs have to help tanks with routing being very annoying on nameplates?

I have no idea how to turn it off

this shit

[tight kernel]

yeah its super bad

also showing on my party frames with minicc

[frail veldt]

sick

ty blizz

[craggy barn]

do we know how much ascendant voidcores upgrade crafted gear by

[long barn]

Anyone know a good WA or anything for debuffs

Like m+ ones

[hallow spoke]

9ilvl should be?

[tender wedge]

It’s 289 to 298 is all I know

285 crafted could go 294 or 295

Is that next week? Or week after

[twin sand]

Is outlaw heavily dependant in m+ on having a shaman compared to sub? I am thinking of switching (will have to recraft 3 items and spend a bonus roll on main hand) and my party doesn't have a shaman. I did sim the dungeon slice with and without skyfury but perhaps there are additional things I need to check/sim to have a better picture?

[craggy barn]

shaman is good, but u really just want warrior and monk

[twin sand]

Thats good to hear, we have those:)

[craggy barn]

ez

[unkempt iris]

if u really wanna crank you just need an aug 🫩

[craggy barn]

eh

[twin sand]

Noone among my friends want to play that

[craggy barn]

aug isnt that important

for law

[unkempt iris]

yeah no mystic touch and shout is all u want

[craggy barn]

we dont have a cd that goes with aug so they dont really work well together

its not trol like it used to be

but its not ideal

[unkempt iris]

ideally you'd prob have a Brew, Resto sham, aug, warr dps

thats fully catered to you

but yeah aug isnt as impactful, 3% crit is fat tho

[craggy barn]

idk, would have to consult the phys comp folks about if aug is really worth it

it hasnt been

so it probably still isnt

the big problem is that aug really wants cds for its own damage

and we dont do that

[unkempt iris]

im not saying its good for the aug

[twin sand]

We aren't aiming to push 20s and from what I am reading switching to outlaw while having war and monk is not bad

[unkempt iris]

im just saying its good for you

yeah law will benefit the most from phys buffs

[twin sand]

Is simming dungeon slice with the appropriate buffs the best way to gauge the difference between outlaw/sub?

[unkempt iris]

an actual phys comp would pref BM hunter over aug rn but i could be wrong with all the tuning and stuff

[craggy barn]

u do not use sims to compare specs

dslice works REALLY well for outlaw

because of how dslice works

its like a boss, some trash

an actual phys comp for rogue is
monk war sham/hunter/drood rogue

if u arent pushing 20s, just play what u find more fun. u will do better with that

sub and law do different things, so the comparison is kinda whatever there

[twin sand]

Thanks! sub is giga boring right now but don't want to troll the group if the switch would make it much worse

[craggy barn]

and law is kinda just harder to play than sub

[unkempt iris]

yeah simming and stuff is kind of pointless if ur not pushing very very high up, its even more useless if you arent having fun because of it

[craggy barn]

so ur mileage will vary

[keen belfry]

Yo

What’s up

[craggy barn]

simming has nothing to do with key level. its more to do with that simming is not an accurate representation of spec performance in any real scenario

and is only useful as a tool to make decisions on gearing and rotation stuff

hey awang

[keen belfry]

Sup. On my way!

Zomb

[craggy barn]

on ur way to what

[keen belfry]

Home

[craggy barn]

ah

[keen belfry]

Busy night

Long shift

At the bar

[craggy barn]

ah u finished drinking

bet

[keen belfry]

Uber doesn’t know

The dmg we can do

[craggy barn]

lol

[keen belfry]

As outlaw

In physical comps

[craggy barn]

god its crazy im rank 29 law in US with only 3688

so little of us

gettting harder to find keys

[keen belfry]

No one knows the power

[craggy barn]

im soft competing wiht my guild, and we have a full meta comp that runs keys

and im ahead of them rn

lol

[keen belfry]

Yeah

Flame them

Okay?

[craggy barn]

lol

[long barn]

Outlaw hidden power bros

We got the edge like a sleeper car

[hardy thicket]

bro im feeling so god damn squishy

healers be like bro press defensives im over here feinting 40 times using cloak evasion stoneform vial

[craggy barn]

ye we just die bro

have to go 0 dps to live

fuckin insane

[rugged bluff]

Is a weapon with the hunt a must cause every rogue just about in the top 50 al have atleast the main hand or the offhand with the hunt on it. Very few have 2 myth weps. Also sorry if this is a dumb question its day 2 of outlaw:)

[craggy barn]

its not a must

[near osprey]

@vivid vessel r u or any outlaws in mdi?

[craggy barn]

shindig

[near osprey]

thought he was sub

[craggy barn]

he plays all 3

he played outlaw this weekend

on a few keys

or at least 1

on friday

[craggy barn]

1 crafted weapon is pretty common bc its easier to just hunt for 1 myth weapon instead of 2

offhand is typically crafted dagger, because people crafted dagger to play the other specs

[tender wedge]

And people crafted a weapon week 1

[craggy barn]

its all just a sim sitaution at this point

if u dont have a myth mh right now

[tender wedge]

So you’d need to have loot 2 mythic weapons and recraftd embellish

[craggy barn]

ur fastest upgrade is a crafted mh

[urban remnant]

Has Outlaw any prio dmg? How is it compared to sub?

[craggy barn]

very different damage profiles

[urban remnant]

Sin rogue is obviously full prio

[craggy barn]

flat damage profile, does most of its damage cleaving off a target, but doesnt have a cd that fucks prio target like sin

just cleave

sub is just 90 sec burst windows

and more pure aoe

slight cleave, very frontloaded

sin big prio damage burst and spread dot

[grim spear]

so tbh its unacceptable how bad outlaw is in low cleave

[craggy barn]

yes they took our low cleave tool away

and then also gutted our energy

and made our cleave cost more energy

so we are just sitting at shit energy during low cleave

while also doing shit damage

🙂

while also making us less passively defensive

so we have to use our energy for dr

so we are at negative energy

[hardy thicket]

like iuno

PoS is murdering me

legit murdering me

[wide shore]

am I simming anything wrong? Sim says stick with crafted MH (hunt embell) rather than fully upgraded myth 1h fist/mace from salad/m+1

[craggy barn]

did u replace ur embel

[wide shore]

oh good point let me see..

that makes more sense, even though it's only showing a 0.5% dps increase with myth 1h
thanks

[tiny condor]

Think im swapping to sin

[shell fossil]

my damage jumped from scub numbers to 280k on trash packs after watching the woxtoxic outlaw guide

unfortunately im making mother's day dinner tonight

cheese potatoes with pressure cooked pork and a pasta salad

💯

[amber ibex]

is fatebound really within 1% of trickster? wowhead not updated cos it says 10% diff in m+

[river wing]

sim for yourself and see
probs not updated on wh

I lose like maybe 1.5-2k on dslice, out of idk, 130k

[hollow lava]

Is anyone here using AyijeCDM to track BF and RtB? If so, I would need some help setting it up. I have most of the things set up, just some minor tweaks

[gaunt phoenix]

Dslice is also a bit favorable for thistle tea, as it is 6 minutes

i do think plugging in one of those long dungeonroute sims is a bit more accurate

[hollow wind]

my sims showed a 4k ish difference

[amber ibex]

mine is at 1,7k

fatebound feels much easier

[livid sand]

Zac mentioned that Sub might be better generally for Keys now. Would you agree? Maybe in a pure phys comp, Outlaw might be better… but with pugs?

[sudden lava]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/rogue-needs-to-bring-a-real-raid-buff/2304579 hey guys hit this with a like if you can

i've been trying really hard this entire tier to get this message out there

[long barn]

Where did you find that guide

[shell fossil]

woxtoxic on youtube

you're probably not casting blade rush enough or at the right time

don't ignore killing spree even though it's kinda whatever

tank fell over in a 16aa i was trying to do but pack was still in the high double digits

and now im done making potatoes

[dull ginkgo]

https://tenor.com/view/bosnov-67-bosnov-67-67-meme-gif-16727368109953357722

[sudden lava]

SIX SEVENNNN

[sudden lava]

i kinda copied your intro from your outlaw tuning post king

ty for the inspiration

[timid portal]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/691817984246808638/1500980722247401544/67-6767.gif

[kind otter]

these are my stats rn hows it looking

[long barn]

The AA buffs you get at start of key are party buffs right?

Like only 1 person needs to do it?

[vivid vessel]

no

its per person

[long barn]

Is there an addon that like instantly clicks the verbiage?

I see people run by it?

[vivid vessel]

ye

idk what tho

lot of addons do it

[long barn]

Hmm

Can you get more than 1?

Like I know there’s a crit one

[vivid vessel]

only 1

crit vers amstery haste

[long barn]

I’m assuming you pick crit

[vivid vessel]

i pick vers

[long barn]

Nah

Lies

Or maybe for the DR

[vivid vessel]

ye

[long barn]

Fair

Zac your ui best part of my year

Ty

[vivid vessel]

:D

[long barn]

I don’t see anything in your package for the debuffs

Did I miss something

Like when you clear a debuff with dwarf or anything

[vivid vessel]

well the unit frame addon tracks debuff

[long barn]

Hmm I need to look at yours cause I don’t think mine is working

Your talking on the party frame of SUF?

Or on the player unit frames from SUF

[vivid vessel]

player frame

[long barn]

Hmm mine def not working

I would have noticed that

[potent walrus]

sooo has anything changed in the past week. What specs are bis for 20-21 keys? is it still just outlaw with the phys comp

[hasty warren]

Hi pirates

[tall karma]

oh what aura buff?

[vivid vessel]

aura buff had nothing to do with hero talents becoming closer

its just trickster being massively nerfed

[buoyant stratus]

Zac, fazed being 6 seconds with cloud cover is a bug right

Im not being gaslit that it was in patch notes

[vivid vessel]

i mean no lol

its blizzard

they are just so bad

you know how it happened?

[buoyant stratus]

Intentional but not listed typeshi?

[vivid vessel]

no

its not intentional

ok hear me out right

i explain

[buoyant stratus]

Ah nice

Lets hear it

[vivid vessel]

first when they created new cloud cover

they had to copy paste fazed

but allow it to stack

so there they copy pasted fazed

now

we wannna nerf cloud cover duration from 10 to 6

what do we do

we go in spell data

we look at all the spells we added when we made cloud cover

we replace all the 10s with 6

[buoyant stratus]

Ahhhhh hahaha

[vivid vessel]

oh no !

accident

!

[buoyant stratus]

Oopsie daisies

[vivid vessel]

i didnt see we had copy pasted fazed !

oh my !

[buoyant stratus]

This will not be fixed for decades to come

Outlaw patchnotes arc has ended 🥀

[vivid vessel]

we are lucky they didnt also lower normal fazed duration btw

[sweet badge]

Yo zac, I wanted to yoink your plater profile. Am I blind or is that not in your googledoc?

[buoyant stratus]

No we're not cause that would mean theyd actually fix it xD

[vivid vessel]

blind ye

https://wago.io/BBGSsnCBy

[sweet badge]

Must be the Japanese highballs

[vivid vessel]

why does wagio not embed images anymore

https://wago.io/TIgC_QiQz

hm

weird !

[buoyant stratus]

Weirdge

Also

I miss her everyday...

Cto

[vivid vessel]

same !

[tired marlin]

Probably asked 1 million times... but. When we land on 5/7 combo points.. to get to 6 or 7, we want to SS.. ja?

[vivid vessel]

ja !

[tired marlin]

danke

[vivid vessel]

auf viederzheen

or whatever

[buoyant stratus]

Zac have u guys ad0pted slayer arms yet?

[vivid vessel]

idk we played like 3 keys this week

i think in skyreach

[buoyant stratus]

Actual thanos spec

[vivid vessel]

he wanna play slayer

but i think maybe in academy aswell

[buoyant stratus]

I think it would be insaneo in nexus and aca

Yeee

[vivid vessel]

eh

nexus

we have funnel on every boss

and only 3 bosses

def fake

he is collosus

[buoyant stratus]

Idk the comparisons in actual aoe pack damage but it seems relatively close to collo and benefits from funnel as well

[vivid vessel]

its worse aoe and i think colo will outdamage the st with funnel

[buoyant stratus]

Some warrior friends are yapping about it to me and think its the secret sauce

[vivid vessel]

so idk

[buoyant stratus]

Why would collo do more ST with funnel?

[vivid vessel]

to be tested !

[vivid vessel]

because it does more funnel

i was told if you bring funnel on a boss, colo will stay ahead

in boss damage

[buoyant stratus]

Im being told otherwise so

Ig we just need more live data

In real keys from real groups

I think there may be a case in windrunner so last boss isnt insanely cringe but idk

Depends how big the gap truly is in pack dam

If its like 5% or 1% or 10%

Typeshi

[vivid vessel]

more like 20%

idk arms discord doesnt really talk about that idk why

seems important to me

[grim spear]

got the kill, though using outlaw to prog this was kinda degenerate

[vivid vessel]

idk

they dont even mention arms funnel

even on woiwhead guide

ye no way idk

they are cooked

not even mentionning funnel

anywhere

is wild

[buoyant stratus]

Yeah thats a bit crazy

[near rock]

outlaw good for soaking orbs 🙂

[potent walrus]

should i be playing around and tracking Palmed bullets at all?

same with zero in and flawless form

or are those things u dont rlly even look at during keys

[grim spear]

yep

[dull geyser]

am i just trippin or is this version of outlaw mega high roll low roll gamba

[indigo token]

im gonna be real

I thought this said -84 percent

[potent walrus]

just swapped to outlaw recently and thats what its been feelin like

cant tell if im playing it wrong or thats just how it is

[buoyant stratus]

Yeah 2buff city = -20-30% dps

Is what it is

Fatebound less variance but still varient af

Just gotta have jackpot rolling for 2 mins straight tbh

[vivid vessel]

Worse its ever been imo

Rtb has never been more rng also

[serene cosmos]

Zac is right, my wording was poor

[vivid vessel]

Which is ironic considering noobs complained about rtb rng before and were happy about new rtb

But it's 10 times worse

[quaint sable]

Dam the double edit

[grim spear]

it feels like absolute shit when something has this much impact and you can't even control it

https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/making-magic/kind-acts-randomness-2009-12-14

i thought every game designer would've read this classic article

but here we are in 2026 and designers are still making shit like this version of rtb

[red tendon]

!prekey

[ornate heath]

• Use Adrenaline Rush to activate Loaded Dice.
• As Trickster, use KS to activate Disorienting Strikes.
• Do NOT use RTB before the key, you will lose it.
• Use SND during the bubble once the key starts.

[glass grove]

hey zac is outlaw the meta rogue spec in keys

is it over or are we back

tell me what to think

[potent walrus]

mr mustache cat thing, i must know @vivid vessel

[vivid vessel]

idk i think sub might be better

or assa

but its all quite close

outlaw does prio damage, sub doesnt

outlaw doesnt steal arms funnel, assa does

[vivid vessel]

i track palmed because its bugged and takes time to refund cps so i dont wanna get surprised

otherwise i wouldnt track it

like i saw casual do some overalls on sub

i dont do as outalw

but then its overall damage you know

doesnt tell the whole story

[wooden escarp]

So for now sub better then outlaw for high keys?

[vivid vessel]

i genuily dont think anyone know really

so it doesnt matter

sub players are legit allergic to queing up to keys

so its always super underrated

[glass grove]

ive been queing up all my keys as sub

it absolutely slams imo

[vivid vessel]

i mean ye

[glass grove]

but im also playing in 16 pugs with dribblers sooo

[vivid vessel]

im telling you

i watched casual do some 20/21s as sub

[vivid vessel]

and he just does more overalls than i do as outlaw