outlaw

[sand bobcat]

Thanks!

[tired pasture]

*spit

[pliant orbit]

I would sim it, but generally POS has a lot of good items for outlaw

[inland acorn]

??? I never said to kill devs thats one, second I said that at some point maybe we should stop giving devs excuses and start judging their work for what it is

[sand bobcat]

For now our rogue not geared at all ))

so dunno if sim is relevant

[inner yacht]

im saying that if u want better devs you have to hire better devs

[pliant orbit]

If you have no time to do the work, how will they do it well?

[inner yacht]

they dont get better bcs you yell at them or what you imagine

its always blizzard not spending enough money

not the devs not wanting to spend the 10 more min to fix the bug

like you said

XDDDDDDDDDDD

[hollow bloom]

Ai spat it out after i asked for the developer notes on this recent balance changes

[inner yacht]

like the blizzard ceo is rubbing its hands and smiling when he sees that he makes wow shittier and shittier every patch and he doesnt get the blame but the minimum wage intern who tested roll mechanic gets blamed

[hollow bloom]

probably trying to make eveyrone mad at every game mode so that they can be like "oh look at classic +, so cool so new so amazing! it has rogue tank too!"

[vivid vessel]

How has blizzard been doing this for 20 years and this happens every patch ?

[inland acorn]

execs fault zac

Devs at blizz are perfect

[inner yacht]

you are misconstructing my point

[inland acorn]

so did you, by saying i want to kill blizzard devs

?

[inner yacht]

it was an exageration]

[livid kindle]

i mean SL was fine for me i really loved playing outlaw in SL it is after DF s1 everything went to mess

[inner yacht]

obv

[plain whale]

It's your fault. You did a 22.

Outlaw must be busted.

[pliant orbit]

One thing is that unexpected things happen
Second thing is that again test environment is apparently built different than live
Third thing is that as long as you don't have enough time to polish things, they won't be polished. But the more time given to release something, the more it is expected to have more content in

[inner yacht]

like ive never heard of blizzard being like a chill place to work ive only heard that its giga shit and overworks everyone

[pliant orbit]

Not to mention, most players understand the game better than the devs in terms of figuring out bugs etc

[vivid vessel]

And they have been doing this shit for 20y I don't get how we still not have a test environment that isn't a copy of live

[inner yacht]

how can u expect good things to come from that

[vivid vessel]

Also how half the times we get legit version control issues

On patches

Like bug fixes being reverted

Etc

This is legit skill issue

[pliant orbit]

That part I agree with. Was always funny to me when they would buff a spec in a hotfix, then release a minor patch a week after that would overwrite the buffs, so they had to re-implement them

[jolly geyser]

Great changes blizzard

[jagged plover]

it's so bad lmao

[covert harness]

So fatebound is still wack?

[jagged plover]

like

[valid hound]

yep

[covert harness]

:/

[arctic hollow]

QA were all fired on a record profit year to please shareholders

[jagged plover]

junior 1 y experience dev level shit

[hollow bloom]

they hate skill expression, im saying it!

[pliant orbit]

But those things are still not dev related. Word on the street is that Blizzard has extremely bad communication between departments

[hollow bloom]

making shit so standardized now, every class will have 1-2-3 rotation soon enough.

[vivid vessel]

A dev made cloud cover still so

[arctic hollow]

No more juniors, they dont hire cause "AI" does the job, Seniors are somehow making shit run but not enough time to fix everything

[vivid vessel]

Im willing to have a lot of things go under management sucks

[unkempt dew]

Is Zac angry or just French?

[inland acorn]

both

[vivid vessel]

But a dev made cloud cover and decided it was fun to have to stand in it and not see shit

[pliant orbit]

Well, part of why cloud cover was so good was that it was bugged with the Fazed part

[vivid vessel]

They also didn't realize it was a 13% talent for whatever reason

[vivid vessel]

No?

The Crit part is legit whatever

The fact it's 70% uptime and stacking to 3

[pliant orbit]

You also had 3x of the pure damage dealt

[vivid vessel]

Yes ?

That's not a bug

That'd literally what the talent does

[pliant orbit]

Oh, I read it as also being a bug

[vivid vessel]

No

[pliant orbit]

As in, that was how I understood their post

[vivid vessel]

And it will stack to 2 still

[covert harness]

Unfortunately

[livid kindle]

even though it sounds broken funnyest part that it wasnt

[unkempt dew]

It’s time to buff fatebound

[pliant orbit]

Yea, I get that it stacks up. It was just that you had increased damage dealt to targets with Fazed on. I thought it working up 3 times was not supposed to work

[pliant orbit]

But had those bugs not been there, they would probably not have been so aggresive to immediately nerf it

[jagged plover]

they didnt even provide any reasoning

[vivid vessel]

If it doesn't stack up the talent does nothing

Btw

[jagged plover]

if you're talking about the summary someone posted here that isnt blizzard

[covert harness]

Imo they should buff fatbound up to playable levels, i hate killing spree :/

[jagged plover]

they just put patch notes in AI and asked it to fabricate reasoning

[vivid vessel]

Also why is Perma tricks in trickster bro

Get me the fuck out

[livid kindle]

i mean at the end of the day you have output which is not crazy its decent but not crazy so why nerf

[vivid vessel]

Hero talents are so fucking bad

For the game

I hate hero talents

Hate that shit

Ruined rogue

So bad

[cinder abyss]

you don't like perma tricks? or that its tied to trickster?

[pliant orbit]

I mean, I agree. I don't understand the immediate nerf to cloud cover

[covert harness]

They made them like that, that could be a baseline talent

[vivid vessel]

I hate that's it's tied to trickster

[hazy siren]

All my homies hate hero talents

[zinc briar]

i thought that we had to fire outlaw dev

but i think that we have to kill him now

[vivid vessel]

So I just get rng tuning into taking it

Cause why is it not in rogue class tree

Like bro

[zinc briar]

can i get that service in deep web?

got money for that

[cinder abyss]

it really should be baseline class tree like

[pliant orbit]

It would be nice with 1 hour tricks in the class tree, ye

[vivid vessel]

The legit best utility talent rogue has across every utility talent

Is tied to trickster ?

I mean

[jagged plover]

why is it even a tree

why is not

[vivid vessel]

OMEGALUL BRO

[jagged plover]

baseline in the skill

[hollow bloom]

the talents give us choices! and give us our own unique spin on the rogue class! /s

[covert harness]

[mystic berry]

Man

[covert harness]

[mystic berry]

I want to see guy posting here after he died on the hill that we suck for foreseeing nerfs last week

oh boy

[unkempt dew]

Its time to get me KSH now that our damage is still better

[carmine mountain]

for real it gets so freaking annoying that they give and take all the time

[hazy siren]

Blizzard giveth blizzard taketh

[cinder relic]

It's still true

Pre whining about nerfs is lame af

[mystic berry]

Pattern recognition is lame af?

Holy fuck arms got buffed its over for zac

[livid kindle]

comon they are unreasonable AF we have right to whine abit

[vivid vessel]

Ok but where is the tweet lil bro

[marsh raft]

Is there a way to get an audio notification when a trinket comes off CD?

[trail sparrow]

I've seen enough, shut down the channel

[cinder relic]

I just woke up

[mighty pivot]

tweeting is not the first thing you do after waking up?

[brave lagoon]

I take a shit thats about the same, right?

[cinder relic]

There's a difference in saying "outlaw probably doesn't need a 5% nerf" and sitting in discord for multiple hours a day, talking about and fantasizing nerfs that we are going to get

On the announcement of a buff, before its even in game

These are very different behaviors

[jagged plover]

we just prefired it because we knew

[mild tide]

Its interesting how quick Blizz pulls the trigger if its about to nerf rogue.
Meanwhile Demowarlock...

[desert heart]

its just sad lol

[jagged plover]

demo idec

aug and dev got smaller nerfs

ragebait

[cinder relic]

Dev got a Nerf equal to the outlaw Nerf

Aug got like a 2% Devourer got a 5%

[mighty pivot]

it all makes sense tbh. The remaining rogue players are clearly masochists, so this behaviour is predictable

[desert heart]

after how long after the tier tho?

[jagged plover]

6 > 5 get owned

[desert heart]

cloud cover was good for 1 week

[cinder relic]

It's not this bad in the other channels!

[cinder relic]

Devourer should have gotten 0 buffs I agree

[brave lagoon]

We're outlaws tho we dont follow the rules

[mighty pivot]

ok outlaws are even more than the rest. But the hopium is still rather low in sub channel at least (dunno about assa, I avoid that place)

sub also got a smaller buff from cloud cover so there was less of a reason to worry

[obsidian walrus]

i mean we are getting a bigger nerf as the top spec in the game by a long shot doesn't that justify some dooming ?

[livid kindle]

bro i literally quit the game for over a year because of their rogue treatment so this topic is kinda sensitive to me when they throwing shit on us for such a long period of time kinda getting annoying af while DK for example is allowed to be op since end of DF till now rogue is not allowed to be strong for a couple weeks

[sacred rune]

A lot of the nerfs/changes don't seem to be that big

[cinder relic]

Again there's a difference in saying "wow outlaw shouldn't get nerfed" and "omfg a buff to rogue? This is just going to be justifications for a Nerf" for 2+ weeks straight

[vivid vessel]

Other specs aren't law kekw

Sub been meta every season I have played wow of course it's not this bad in sub channel

What am I reading

They got buffed

Omegalul

Sub got buffed outlaw got nerfed

it's not that bad in sub channel guys

[jagged plover]

[vivid vessel]

Sub arent whining every tier I don't get it guys

[long barn]

@cinder relic - it’s hard to swallow nerfs when the spec you play is not meta, not top 5 dps ST or cleave, we aren’t Top 5 dps in keys, and otherwise we got “lucky” on a class change that made a difference and made us competitive.

It’s not about a %. It’s about being competitive.

[vivid vessel]

Plays sub in prog every tier cause it's the better spec

[cinder relic]

Neither does assa and assa has been mid for awhile

[vivid vessel]

So mid and is better than outlaw

[oblique vortex]

the issue is blizz employess cant play outlaw so they nerf them till they not playable and buff 2 button sub its obv.

[cinder relic]

I agree! But again this is different than what I'm specifically mentioning

[sacred rune]

subtlety was rearely the meta in m+

for what its worth

we strictly talk about early mythic raid progression

[vivid vessel]

I mean ok and it's been meta as often as outlaw in keys tho

Like

Outlaw players refusing to play other specs doesn't mean outlaw is better

[raw bridge]

guys just started maining outlaw pre nerf, am i cooked?

[sacred rune]

i mean the assassiantion mythic+ rework made it pmuch the meta ever since

thats a tuning or design issue

pick your poison

[jagged plover]

the gap between how good relatively sub and outlaw have been in raid and sub and outlaw in m+ is not comparable

[valid hound]

cooked

[sudden veldt]

tbh the game is 10 times more interesting at the start of a season, if you managz to be meta during this period its worth the whole tier imho

[vivid vessel]

But also sub legit been meta the same amount as outlaw in keys since I started wow in sl

[placid ocean]

Is outlaw actually getting a nerf or is this just the typical doomer speak for this channel?

[vivid vessel]

Or meta, rather the best m+ rogue spec

Cause it's never been meta

[valid hound]

a bit of both

[long barn]

Check the pin

[jagged plover]

like if you were to measure in % how much better sub was in raid vs how much better outlaw has been in m+ it's just like a joke

[sacred rune]

i mean, do you consider subtlety the meta this season

[vivid vessel]

6% st 4% AOE, bigger nerf than dk, dev and aug

[sacred rune]

it rly comes down to perception too

[vivid vessel]

No

[sacred rune]

but lets just take the last xpac for example

[hexed raven]

holy shit 6% nerf and 4% nerf on aoe wtf ? they are thinking ?

[vivid vessel]

Ye and sub was better in s1 and S3 than law and no one cared

And same shit in df and sl

[long barn]

Aug getting less of nerf than us has no thought process from blizzard. If they had a brain or looked at numbers this would be opposite

[sacred rune]

S3 was an even split between assassiantion and subtlety

[lone crow]

sub was the best rogue m+ spec s3

[pliant orbit]

Stronger than before the Cloud Cover change, weaker than after Cloud Cover change

[long barn]

Blizz just doesn’t want us to have anything nice. We had to get lucky to get something, and per usual they fucked it up and took it away.

[sacred rune]

season 2 had assassiantion as more dominant, with outlaw 2nd and subtlety 3rd

season 1 had assassiantion first, outlaw 2nd, subtlety 3rd

[raw bridge]

next week, adding combat back with a 50% nerf on release

[sacred rune]

so going with the last xpac

[oblique vortex]

i mean they nerfing frost mage too 😄

a

[vivid vessel]

this is also hugely biased by sub players rerolling to assa

[oblique vortex]

which is also giga funny

[sacred rune]

we had no season assasisantion was bad.
Subtlety was bad in 2/3, so was outlaw

[vivid vessel]

while its not true for the few outlaw players

that always play outlaw

all im saying is

[magic steppe]

so buff was not on purpose then if were geting huge nerf again

[long barn]

Unless we are going to do something as a community. We should probably just let this go.

[tight kernel]

Zac are you upset at the nerfs

[jagged plover]

but by bad, how much worse was it actually

[vivid vessel]

sub has been better than law in all content most of the times

[sacred rune]

so lets add some more data points

[jagged plover]

how many less key levels could you do

[magic steppe]

hate my life

[tight kernel]

If Zac’s mad I’m mad

[vivid vessel]

i get nerfed by more than dh dk and aug so idk

should i be happy

[obsidian light]

at this point im thinking of dropping rogue next season its so frustrating lol

[vivid vessel]

deostn seem fair to me

[sacred rune]

season 4 dragonflight.
outlaw first, assassiantion 2nd, subtlety not existent.

[tight kernel]

But they buffed warrior !!

[magic steppe]

me :3

[quiet ore]

I click on the slow mh, I lock in and hope blizz obliges. Then flex sub week 6 and remember I'm bad at it.

[livid kindle]

yo guys lets not fight inside of our class while we losing battle to pretty much all other classes unless we are talking assa though because its lame af

[sacred rune]

DF season 3:
outlaw first, subtlety 2nd, assassiantion 3rd

[shadow trellis]

Yeah lets just grieve in peace

Please

[vivid vessel]

df s4 isnt a real season btw

[magic steppe]

no lot of french outlaw so we need to complain :p

[jagged plover]

can we pull up the last time outlaw was best for prog on an endboss

any takers

now do the same for sub

[vivid vessel]

last week for 1 week

[sacred rune]

DF s2, subtlety - outlaw - assassiantion

[oblique vortex]

how much of a buff is it for sub now? like % ?

[pliant orbit]

I mean, the tendency for sub/assa swappers are that they just play both those specs. If you only play outlaw you are doomed to have more seasons of not being the best

[jagged plover]

ye and they fixed that shit immediately

cant have that

[vivid vessel]

ye

cant have outlaw be good ever bro

its just how it is

[jagged plover]

like theres some seasons where outlaw did 2 keys higher in m+

[livid kindle]

btw what the hell did they do to sub isnt it 2 button spec now ? i loved to play it in past but never touched in midnight

[jagged plover]

sure

[quiet ore]

The real q is weather total rogue pop is down in absolute terms or just % of total

[sacred rune]

DF s1
subtlety, outlaw, assassiantion

[jagged plover]

but sub has literally been the choice in raid forever bro

and the gap is a canyon

[normal hawk]

Outlaw felt really good in dragon flight

[hollow bloom]

guys

[pliant orbit]

That has more to do with damage profile than outlaw being bad

[sacred rune]

subtlety was good df 1 & 2 bu if you look outlaw was very close in both

[hollow bloom]

its ok, we got that rogue highlight in the housing trailer!

[obsidian walrus]

@sacred rune when was outlaw taken over sub/assa in a endgame boss ?

[hollow bloom]

remember?!

[sacred rune]

outlaw was in general, taking this 2 xpacs the most dominant spec

[jagged plover]

knowing why doesnt make it any less shit

[pliant orbit]

Outlaw has always been extremely uptime dependent, so therefore is often not used in raid

[sacred rune]

assassiantion took a lot of wins since the rework

[raw bridge]

I finally found the class/spec I enjoy after leveling 6 90s in two weeks (I started two weeks ago) and its already stripped from me LOL. gonna thug it out tho

[quiet ore]

DF S1 I played a lot of law and loved gapping my raid in pure ST on terros for reasons nobody understood

[sacred rune]

so the takeaways is still that outlaw was in general the best mythic+ option over the last years

[vivid vessel]

what

[sacred rune]

just spoken in terms of play rate

[obsidian walrus]

???

[sacred rune]

haha right

[tight kernel]

Outside of phys comp??

[vivid vessel]

you litteraly sent numbers where sub was ahead more time than law

[sacred rune]

i mean its within rogue

[vivid vessel]

• you forgot shadowland

[sacred rune]

i mean

outlaw on 4% vs. 2nd best on 0.5%

vs. subtlety on 3% but outlaw on 2.5%

[quiet ore]

Why won't they give us charge-based SBS on law again, why do they hate us

[sacred rune]

both is a very diffrent measurement

[fluid meadow]

what are the filters u used, i can't find those numbers

[thorn plinth]

SL outlaw good times

[vivid vessel]

sl: s1 law, s2 sub, s3 sub
df: s1 sub, s2 sub, s3 law
tww: s1 outlaw worse spec in the game, s2 sin, s3 sub and outlaw worse spec in the gmae
midnight: sub

now we do raid

[mighty pivot]

same split with assa in s1 tww then

[tight kernel]

Surrender to Madness season?

[jagged plover]

sub sub sub sub sub

sin sub sub sub

[vivid vessel]

sl: s1 sub, s2 sub, s3 sub
df: s1 sub, s2 sub, s3 sub
tww: s1 sub, s2 sub, s3 sub
mdinight: s1 sub

okok

guys why do outlaw players always complain i dont get it

[jagged plover]

weird!

is there an updated one of these

huge

[tight kernel]

Zac the nerfs are justified come on. Blizz is fine !!

[zinc briar]

we still play trickster with nefts?¿

[sacred rune]

and even then
Subtlety: DF-s1(1), DF-s2, TWW-s3 -- 3 times
Outlaw: DF-s3,DF-s4 -- 2 times
Assassiantion: TWW-s1, TWW-s2, TWW-s3 -- 2 times

[mighty pivot]

yes but fb is closer now

[inland acorn]

yes, but solo is going to run numbers on FB before reset

[thorn plinth]

https://tenor.com/view/discord-typing-loading-waiting-shake-gif-16356908

[sacred rune]

guess you could say assassiantion was as much or even more played than assassiantion

[pliant orbit]

Question. Would you prefer a version of outlaw with less uptime reliance and more burst that would make them better in raid, or an uptime reliant version where you most likely end up not good for raid?

[sacred rune]

outlaw is behind in general

[livid kindle]

cinema

[vivid vessel]

counting df s4 is criminal its not a season, also sub was meta in 2 seasons in sl not 1

[sacred rune]

SL s1 was initially outlaw, then assassiantion
SL s2 was split between all 3
SL s3 was --- all rogue specs suck, later in the season outlaw due to buffs
SL s4 i don'r remeber, but was either outlaw or assasisantion

why

how does mythic+ get impacted

by it

i can understand you making an argument for raid

but for mythic+ i don't

[vivid vessel]

also tww s2 was law i would say

[livid kindle]

guys its doesnt matter sub outlaw or even assa we are always getting cucked by blizzard

[vivid vessel]

after they fixed bf

[magic shuttle]

Sub was pretty good in sl season 3

[vivid vessel]

it was better than assa

[sacred rune]

like

[magic shuttle]

Just a bit rng

[jagged plover]

but they aren't comparable at all

[pliant orbit]

@magic shuttle

[sacred rune]

does mythic+ function diffrently in a s4?

[magic shuttle]

👋

[vivid vessel]

it wasnt a season

[sacred rune]

you get a similar dungeon pool

[vivid vessel]

it was like prepatch or whatever

[sacred rune]

and you push keys?

no?

[vivid vessel]

like an inbetween season no one played

not really

[cinder abyss]

Yes

[vivid vessel]

no one cared about s4

it was kinda just dead game people waiting for next expac

was a copy of s3

[quiet ore]

But real q: when was the last time OL was tuned at start of season such that it saw rwf play? Like, never?

[jagged plover]

outlaw is literally never the choice in raid, sub has been fine or sometimes the best rogue spec, outlaw is never the best rogue spec in raid

[fluid sundial]

hello guys how much did outlaw get nerfed?

[livid kindle]

tbh i think zac always pushes keys on outlaw regardless how bad it is

[vivid vessel]

more than dk, dev and aug

[jagged plover]

the last time outlaw killed a boss first was assaault of the zaqali

before that it was diurna

before that it was eternal palace

xd

xd

[pliant orbit]

It won't ever be a primary raid spec unless 100% uptime is ever possible

[placid ocean]

Was outlaw performing well enough to warrant a nerf?

[sacred rune]

Think outlaw has a problem in design for it

[cinder abyss]

Legion no? EN

[jagged plover]

give it cracked tuning and it will

[vivid vessel]

there was about 10 specs better than law in keys

[placid ocean]

So... no

[vivid vessel]

why is law not better on the 100% uptime bosses?

[sacred rune]

i mean the overall issue is like

[pliant orbit]

Right now or in general?

[sacred rune]

rogue in general isn't that popular in mythic+ ever since aug was introduced

[vivid vessel]

rn but also the past few seasons it was true

at best its equal

[sacred rune]

because the entire dynamic of m+ changed

also shroud sucks, and raid buffs became more relevant

[vivid vessel]

it was better in s1 tww we got lucky

[jagged plover]

if we're going to be shoehorned into this 100% uptime thing, then our tuning should reflect it and we should be higher than everyone else in a 100% uptime environment

yet we are not

[pliant orbit]

Well, ideally all classes/specs were equal, but suited for different situations

[vivid vessel]

but outlaw is basically at best the same as other specs on 100% uptime fights

[jagged plover]

and whenever we have been, we immediately get knocked down

[vivid vessel]

and then complete unplayable dog on any other fight

[quiet ore]

WHY DO THEY KEEP GIVING ALL THE MOBS TRUE SIGHT, DO THEY HATE US?

[sacred rune]

i think the best way to make outlaw more relevant is to move the execute niche from assassiantion to outlaw

[sacred rune]

exactly

[pliant orbit]

They just really hated how players were skipping in MDI/TGP

[sacred rune]

like

[livid kindle]

since aug was introduced yellow line almost the thinest beside couple of seasons on mythic stats

[sacred rune]

if outlaw had a jucy execute

[jagged plover]

i wouldnt mind being an uptime spec if there was actually any payoff to it

[sacred rune]

midnight would have 100% be an outlaw fight

[jagged plover]

but we're an uptime spec and the payoff is mediocre damage

like what

that is stupid

[quiet ore]

Now we have warlock gate skips and werynstone pulls instead, joyous

[clever wasp]

Still is if u have no idea how to play sub

[zinc briar]

Trickster: Additional stacks of Fazed granted by Cloud Cover no longer increase the magnitude of secondary effects, such as the damage reduction from the Smoke talent.

thats the nerf?

[pliant orbit]

That part falls more into blizzard not expecting the creativity of players fighting for a fraction faster dungeon

[sacred rune]

tbh, i think outlaw atm is quite good

[clever wasp]

All of them are "the nerf"

[glass shard]

i love pugging

holy bonusroll

[rustic birch]

you only get 1 stack of fazed instead of 2 and it last 6 seconds instead of 10

[sacred rune]

its just a bit unlucky that sub gets better compensation buffs

still loses burst tho

[clever wasp]

Me too, but like always burst specs are almost always better for prog and outlaw aint that sadly

[jagged plover]

guess we just get unlucky like every time they do tuning

[slim hare]

both statement despite being true are stupid

to me

[livid kindle]

i mean how do you nerf a spec looking at those charts

[slim hare]

how the fuck do we not get at least sane compensattion despite gaining more from cloud cover

[cinder abyss]

Hit the yellow bars

[slim hare]

and why destroy sub niche again

[jagged plover]

well they saw some yellow so clearly something was wrong

[clever wasp]

This lowkey means nothing btw, even if outlaw was best by alot that wouldnt change alot btw

[hazy siren]

They are nerfing based on Casualaddict's youtube titles

[vivid vessel]

would it

[slim hare]

like wtf are they smoking; again just tell me how many drugs they take i cant believe its 0

[vivid vessel]

there is no execute thing this tier

anywehre

[clever wasp]

EGG

[vivid vessel]

but yes i agree

[fluid meadow]

yeah we are just a bit unlucky every time, like we didn't played ks, so they forced us, had double coup , they deleted and gave it back with tier set, blade rush not played, so going into tierset, kinda interesting what are they doing every time

[clever wasp]

[vivid vessel]

xdd

[sacred rune]

i mean, it just makes sense to me

[vivid vessel]

there isnt exec on egg tho

[sacred rune]

to have specs with diffrent strengths and weaknesses

so you have reason to switch

[clever wasp]

Execute on outlaw would be so cool

[vivid vessel]

it just works for assa cause you happen to have cds during ex

[clever wasp]

[quiet ore]

I mean, let's be perfectly clear here. Cloud cover, as a hero tree choice node, was too strong. Obviously so. We desperately needed the buff, but putting all the power in that one node was never gonna be it.

[sacred rune]

outlaw is fun, but it kinda lacks niches

[vivid vessel]

no i agree

[main radish]

Guys quick question - is the new patch inc nerf or buff in totalß

[vivid vessel]

just sayin this particular tier

[main radish]

Zac - big fan ❤️

[jagged plover]

nerf, check pins

[vivid vessel]

wouldnt have changed anything

[slim hare]

why nerf sub burst then but buff spec that is so stupid to me

[clever wasp]

Read pins bub

[vivid vessel]

bigger nerf than dk, aug and dev dh

[sacred rune]

I think its unlucky that outlaw overall gets nerfed

especially given that i did not feel like it was overperforming

the tuning was fine-ish

[slim hare]

yeah 13% buff still not overperforming

[sacred rune]

rogue in general is tuned weak-ish this tier

[slim hare]

lest just nerf them

[cinder abyss]

What are the strengths and weaknesses for outlaw?

[sacred rune]

but that goes with my theory

[livid pewter]

i felt like a valid player for the first time in the past 3 years kinda 🙁

[vivid vessel]

litteraly not a single strength rn

and im not even joking

[sacred rune]

that blizz likes to keep rogue as a class at a certain position each raid

[clever wasp]

I think they just over did the nerf, rogue as a class is still fine but sure it still sucks

[radiant wyvern]

strengths?

[sacred rune]

so rogue is either all specs bad

[vivid vessel]

in tww we were tanky and had insane cleave

[sacred rune]

or all specs good

[vivid vessel]

low target cleave

rn we have nothing

0

[mighty pivot]

give PC back you cowards

[clever wasp]

Outlaw is ranged if u proc 100 times

[livid pewter]

we have shroud

[cinder abyss]

Yeah i know, all downsides it seems. Was just curious on Fuu's thoughts

[quiet ore]

We've gotten like 4 weeks of light touch 3-5% aura buffs - they clearly do not want to touch the kit with a 10ft pole

Unlike a lot of other specs where specific abilities have been tuned and retuned

[obsidian walrus]

BFA PTSD

[main radish]

Zac if u would stop being first on ladder they wouldnt even know we are able to play deceently

[slim hare]

lol you forgot bf nerf cause its overperformiong guys

[sacred rune]

my current theory is about placebo changes

[vivid vessel]

ye well this will keep happening every season because no one plays rogue

[sacred rune]

i rly want to analyze the changes a lot

but idk if you followed the wcl ranking much

[clever wasp]

Or what if zac goes assa for 1 week, blizzard will know they fucked up and buff outlaw again

[sacred rune]

the "cloud cover" buff

did not put subtlety in a better position relatively seen on wcl

it stayed the exact same as it was before

[slim hare]

make zac cancel his sub

maybe then they will listen

[main radish]

yes thats the plan - get this shitty assa spac nerfed

[halcyon chasm]

You guys got it all wrong. We haven't figured out how to play outlaw properly. If we were better at law, we would see this nerf is justified. Blizzard outlaw devs gapping everyone else in their weekly raid test.

[hollow token]

why are they nerfing outlaw?

wtf

[slim hare]

why not

[livid kindle]

i mean its hard to compare impact on sub and outlaw because of buff uptime difference its too massive of a difference

[sacred rune]

so my theory currently is that buffs mostly aim to buff everyone.
While at the same time not "buff" specs that perform well

[slim hare]

nerfing it more then devourer seems legit no ?

[hollow token]

playing smoke was so fun

[sacred rune]

so the general balance stays about the same

[subtle adder]

they're 5% aura buffing it tho no

[sacred rune]

while people feel like they are stronger

tho blizz just indirectly nerfing raids

with making specs slightly better but not changing relative spec balance

[vivid vessel]

dominating rn

[quiet ore]

Idk, mm hunter has had like 3 major kit reworks while we've had 3%

[sacred rune]

haha ye, some outliners exist

[slim hare]

i already canceled my sub because of bugs

[sacred rune]

but like

[hollow token]

back to boredombound hero talent?

[sacred rune]

the dev nerf seems fairly low

[slim hare]

cant put pressure anymore

[sacred rune]

DK was absolutely op

[grim spear]

rly
i don't know what's doing the rogue design

if it's an AI, i'd say swap it for a human;
if it's a human, swap it for an AI

[sacred rune]

and idk how big the nerf is

[slim hare]

but i wont play that shit

[vivid vessel]

same as outlaw

[hybrid flax]

Ngl must be so scuffed praccing for MDI with constant chatgpt tuning like this this expansion

[sacred rune]

like, one of our tanks could casually just sitch to dps in keys

[vivid vessel]

like 3% st and 5% aoe or whatever

[livid kindle]

sounds reasonable

[sacred rune]

and without prior experience on dps, optimized gear or gameplay

performance was still on par or above other raiders who main dps (ofc depends on the spec)

DK def. seemed too strong from that, so the nerf seemed reasonable

[vivid vessel]

its not even a big nerf

its 5% at most like

[sacred rune]

ye thats nothing

[livid kindle]

i mean ofcourse im just being sarcarstic that DK getting same nerf as outlaw

[vivid vessel]

why is law getting nerfed by more

than the best spec in the game

xd ?

XD XD

XD

XD

[sacred rune]

to be fair

[vivid vessel]

WTF

[sacred rune]

it could be worse

[vivid vessel]

ye bro it can always be worse

[sacred rune]

look at your tanks in m+

[shadow trellis]

Dk 1.7% st nerf

[lean shadow]

The tuning for rogue has been awful

[sacred rune]

how is pala in a 22

?

[hybrid flax]

Ye they could cap BF to 5 targets

[slim hare]

you mean we could be the only one nerfed ?

[sacred rune]

or warrior?

[hybrid flax]

lets be grateful

[wintry solar]

you could have restless blades nerfed by 20%

[sacred rune]

[vivid vessel]

idk tank is different tho

tank players reroll to meta tank

[clever wasp]

OR BEAR AFTER TUNING BTW

[lean tartan]

might as well alt a DK because that class cannot get nerfed

[vivid vessel]

every season

like every good tank does that

every tier

[vestal grail]

They already did that in shadownalnds s1

[vivid vessel]

its not even close

[normal hawk]

Why did they do that

[vestal grail]

Xd

[sacred rune]

dps do too

[near rock]

when an unstoppable doomer meets an unbreakable believer zac v fuu

[vivid vessel]

so tank balance always look worse than it is

[vivid vessel]

yes but no

[clever wasp]

Because baloren egg dmg, they can beat all dps with procs

300k+ dps

[sacred rune]

dps are often more hesitant to change

but technically

[vivid vessel]

there is always one tricks and people playing diff specs

[cinder relic]

Bear does insane burst

[normal hawk]

Idk if that required such a gutting though

[vivid vessel]

but tank players

legit

[sacred rune]

there isn't that much diffrence

[vivid vessel]

swap to meta tank every season

there aint a single tank player

taht will not play meta

[quiet ore]

I still remember back when anti-magic zone didn't have a damage prevention cap; they've definitely eaten nerfs from time to time

[clever wasp]

Its exactly why, they did insane dmg

[sacred rune]

i know dps who do the same

and it works for them

so idk

[vivid vessel]

ye but fuu

haha

[cinder relic]

Both of our tanks have "every rank ready" for raiding

[grave carbon]

it feels like there is less variance in tank specs

[vivid vessel]

its just how tanking is

[normal hawk]

Do you think people don’t swap to meta dps?

[cinder relic]

Most dps will have like what, 1-3 alts

[vivid vessel]

they have 4 specs

[sacred rune]

i get what you mean zac

[vivid vessel]

and they play them all

[cinder relic]

It's more in tanks for sure though

[sacred rune]

especially in m+

[vivid vessel]

and they reroll to the meta tank

i swear to you

its true

[sacred rune]

you kinda need meta chasing as tank

[vivid vessel]

its the same every season

[sacred rune]

while dps can often make it work

[livid pewter]

ye i have 4 outlaws

[vivid vessel]

tank balance is never as bad as it looks

[cinder relic]

Tank mains are sort of expected to play "the right tank" on any individual boss in raid for example

[vivid vessel]

but tank playuers reroll insta

[sacred rune]

i think it is rly bad this season

[vivid vessel]

also i dont even know why tank players reroll like that btw

[halcyon chasm]

Anyone figure out how tuning works at Blizzard yet? Do the devs just do some keys together or..? Maybe the spec dev that loses their Friday night decor duel has to nerf their spec?

[vivid vessel]

there is such a tank shortage

you can get invinted anyway

[sacred rune]

i don't remember a season people stopped playing tanks this much

[shadow trellis]

I feel like tanking is so unfun people who do it just want to get things done

[livid kindle]

its not only that it will be extremely boring to play same tank every season because they are generally very simple gameplay wise unlike outlaw for example

[sacred rune]

there seems to be a tank shortage now

[shadow trellis]

And rerolling is not a big deal

Bcs they already gave up rheir spec identity

[wintry solar]

just a shortage of meta tanks

[obsidian walrus]

because they gave them mechanics in the raid for the first time and they noped out

[vivid vessel]

idk what it is but i swear to god i know of like 3 one trick players as tank

[sacred rune]

I think its more a design change

like monk is one of the few tanks which still can deal with the tank mechanics and damage income ease

*easy

but paladin, dk, etc

especially the not top end players

just die now

[livid pewter]

but, tbf there are is no class like outlaw, if u play it with 1 button rotation - it just underperforms so its not fair to play a class where u need some braincells and healthy fingers & armwrists still getting smashed into the ground like shid

[sacred rune]

the feedback loop is extremely punishing/bad

[grim spear]

either go the gw2 route

give everyone free gear, let them customize their own stats

so anyone can "switch to the right specs"

[coarse mesa]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[hybrid flax]

i mean that wouldnt work when half the ppl chase dopamine from loot in this game

[jagged plover]

ffxiv just made it so your classes all inherit highest ilvl

[hybrid flax]

very few ppl actually play for the gameplay

[sacred rune]

one button surely is bad on outlaw

haha thats true

[abstract bronze]

I swear blizzard is rolling Dice of RTB for balancing the spec, this is what pure class fantasy is for them

[quiet ore]

You notice this a ton as a healer - the gap between good and bad ppals and bdks is huge, but prot wars just don't take damage, and brewmasters don't need you

[sacred rune]

exactly

most tanks ended up more or less self sustaining in DF/TWW

they where these unkillable beasts

now, they are not, but also struggle to have cooldowns to allow bigger pulls

[dim parrot]

15 days ago is this based or

[quiet ore]

Unless you're brew and stagger is like permanently being in DR CD :V

[sacred rune]

e.g. ppala often feels like they can't pull big, because they run out of cooldowns

[dim parrot]

Guy told me I was being goofy

[sacred rune]

brewmaster also has the problem

that people don't like its unique mechanics

druid tank is kinda the simple but strong tank left

tho now gets noticably nerfed

[quiet ore]

Of healing from half its DPS kit like bdk but better?

[sacred rune]

no i mean

[livid pewter]

thats what i mean, there a bunch of people who can minmax outlaw dps - just let them do their shid and stop tilting them every class has his "OTP" players and thats absolutely fine
but gettin trolled like this is crazy, im loosing so much years in my life just by listening to that much bass heavy pumping music to be able to perform on outlaw, also my wrists and fingers are burning AND then i look at hunters... like...

[sacred rune]

people played with brewmaster in the past

and staggering damage is a unique gameplay

which isn't that popular

[jolly geyser]

always be negative while playing wow and be suprised by buffs,works for me

[sacred rune]

so the tank spec is less appealing

[hollow bloom]

https://tenor.com/view/why-would-yous-say-something-so-controversial-controversial-gif-15274636

[quiet ore]

Feels weird considering healing right now is "how well can you heal staggered damage instances" in m+

Rot healing constantly

[near rock]

because dooming just to be like "look guys I told u haha durr" is just bad vibes

[sacred rune]

it might be, but its more of a perception problem

[runic nimbus]

How much DPS los will that be for us +- in M+ for example?

[cinder relic]

You were

Idk how u guys dont understand it

[dim parrot]

?

[fluid meadow]

https://www.twitch.tv/csaka94/clip/HappyYawningDragonflyNinjaGrumpy-2jg0iB5rhsJ9hwEI?filter=clips&range=7d it's ok bro its meta so play it nvm how to do it just login

[sleek basin]

Arent we getting buffed on reset ?

[cinder relic]

Every single time the spec gets a buff, spending 2 fucking weeks in discord fantisizing about nerfs isn't normal

[hollow bloom]

they dont like skill expression for anything, not dps not healing. dunno abou tank but im not trying that anytime soon.

[cinder relic]

Thats not normal people behaviour

[livid kindle]

lowkey Fuu is a blizzard agent which turned our nerf whining talk into tank discussion

[dim parrot]

We made simple prediction when new talent came out

Idk what u on about

[cinder relic]

"Simple predictions"

@near rock dude

[simple orchid]

Only one solution: outlaw tank spe next xpac

[near rock]

theres a difference between making a prediction like "hey I think this talent might get nerfed down the road" and "they're gonna nerf it guys" x5 times

[vivid vessel]

healer fault

he is afk not healing

[dim parrot]

We said the new talent is probs unintentional and will receive nerf and it happened kek

[livid pewter]

i would call it more like he can just seperate his real emotions and ingame emotions a bit

[cinder relic]

Incredible rewriting

[quiet ore]

I imagine different healers have different tank preferences, but as mistweaver I've found brew stupidly easy to keep alive

[near rock]

holyyyyyyyyyy

[vestal grail]

i blame bfa outlaw, baited me into loving this spec sheeet

[livid kindle]

i mean im just joking i love fuu he helped me alot ❤️

[ashen void]

i might buy the latest d4 expac just to also buy the armor ffs

[wide flare]

Y’all doom way too much and there are double agents

[sacred rune]

I can only say from the around 20 tanks we had over the years

[cinder relic]

[ashen void]

did someone say....

[sacred rune]

that brew was the one nobody wanted to play on an alt

because stagger was something people did not like

also self healing on bdk, druid,etc often ended up higher

[inland cairn]

is that a paid cosmetic?

[cinder relic]

No!

[inland cairn]

[cinder relic]

Its free!

[sacred rune]

this does not mean brew is bad or maybe easy to play now. Just that it wasn't popular in the past and created a certain view on it.

[cinder relic]

\

These are all free

[hollow bloom]

[inland cairn]

damn

[ashen void]

yo actually Atiesh owns and looks real good

I mean they all do

[inland cairn]

i need to harass my friends more to start the dlc

[cinder relic]

the dlc is very very good

[quiet ore]

Well, yeah, monk in general is down there in the low pop bin with us and evokers

[sacred rune]

spiky sword looks great

[wide flare]

I do find it strange how reactive blizz is with outlaw despite very few rogues and outlaws in the game

[sacred rune]

Think rogue is the only one hard to explain why its in it tho

[wide flare]

I feel it gets nerfed as soon as it’s good

[dim parrot]

Outlaw catching 5% nerf is absolutely ridiculous

[livid kindle]

exactly thats what i am saying all the time

[livid pewter]

[quiet ore]

Rogue is certainly the only one that's existed since vanilla

[sacred rune]

evoker is just visually and gameplay wise not that good, so it makes sense that people don't love palying it

also fairly new

monk is too close in design to some others, so more a niche class

rogue however, is a stable in every rpg

[ashen void]

all this marketing for d4 is working

[sacred rune]

so it makes no sense for it to be this bad

[wide flare]

I think dh ruined rogues

[sacred rune]

we are like the by far least played

[cinder relic]

I've liked D4 more than most but this expac is legit such a game changer

[sacred rune]

DK ruined warrior

kinda

[ashen void]

rogue fun?

[wide flare]

All the edge lord went to play DH

[sacred rune]

because DK was now too good for soo long

[vagrant kiln]

rogue got too close to the sun in wod and we been punished for it since

[cinder relic]

ya rogue fun

[sacred rune]

did hear only good things about it so far

[wide flare]

During bfa were we not in the sun??

[grim spear]

rogue is so f fun rn that no one plays it

[jagged plover]

warlock also has some banger skill effects

[vagrant kiln]

tbf i didnt play bfa so its possible

[jagged plover]

im dropping a gorilla on mobs heads

[near rock]

its my first time playing it, ive been havin fun

[wide flare]

I remember triple outlaw mdi

[slim hare]

wrong we are low played is the result of such shitty works fopr years

[vagrant kiln]

but bfas also like 5 years ago at this point or smthn

[quiet ore]

The last rogue legendary weapon was legion legendaries. Right?

[normal hawk]

The days

[slim hare]

legit years of being shit on

[livid kindle]

i mean outlaw is still fun to play even if it will do no damage problem is that you will have no chance to play if you will do no damage

[cinder relic]

Well 1, were talking about D4, not wow, and 2, rogue is fun rn! It's just kinda mid, and also getting a nerf when it shouldnt be getting one

[slim hare]

does that to class popularity

[wide flare]

It is fun the devs hate us

[cinder relic]

so rogue has been unpopular since wrath of the lich king

[jagged plover]

sylvanus dagger wasnt a leggie right

[cinder relic]

Did the "shitting on rogue" start in 2008?

[valid hound]

i wish we get back to combat

not this pirate shit

[quiet ore]

No, just had a cantrip

[wide flare]

I blame DH

[topaz bough]

Why use 'Killing Spree' in 5 CP? Is there a reason? Will there be any issues using it at 6 CP?

[wintry solar]

That was almost 10 years ago

[slim hare]

dont be disingenous there is level to this

[cinder relic]

its 5 minimum, using it at 6 is fine

[cinder relic]

well its a serious question

[sacred rune]

I think mmorpg and rogue archetypes are hard to combine, because designs usually appeal by offering extra power from game execution.
But mmorpg's, especially wow, does normalize this damage. Which means you need to do the extra effort to do less or equal than the most basic class in the game.

[cinder relic]

Ppl always point to "Rogue is unpopular now this is a modern problem" meanwhile rogue has been the least played class in the game since Wrath of the lich king

So clearly there is more to rogues "popularity" than modern design or balance issues

[sacred rune]

subtlety was seen as pvp spec in early xpacs

[slim hare]

we werent bottom of the barel popularity back then; low sure but not by a country miles

[cinder relic]

We were

Rogue has been the least played class for literal decades

[vagrant kiln]

wasnt rogue only really popular in vanilla?

[slim hare]

the gap wasnt that bad

[wintry solar]

Oldge game, why'd you have to say decades

[cinder relic]

Idrk if it was even popular in vanilla, it's just wrath is as far as the data goes

[slim hare]

but design / visual being bad niche being taken away put us in the no one play this shit category

[cinder relic]

I can't find any original launch/TBC data

[livid pewter]

this is literally insane, i dont know why i didnt think about creating my character as realistic pic before lmao

[slim hare]

we were being low played

[wide flare]

Yeah but it was the only melee spec, everyone played war anyway

[livid kindle]

i mean people just chosing path of least resistance and by people i mean majority does that mean that class should be poorly tuned though?

[slim hare]

but now its legit no one play this shit categorie

[wide flare]

The other leather specs cucked us one by one

[cinder relic]

idt its about path of least resistance theres like

[grim spear]

even in the face of stats like this, the rogue channel mods still insist rogue is fun

[cinder relic]

A whole slew of "issues" that rogue has that aren't exactly issues, but features

[dim parrot]

Sometimes tuning is great

[grim spear]

what can i even say? maybe that's exactly why blizzard thinks they can shit on rogues whenever they want

[normal hawk]

What does population have to do with fun?

[sacred rune]

the leveling is one big unadressed issue

[cinder relic]

Idk for some reason ppl conflate them a lot

[sacred rune]

you need to appeal to players early on

[slim hare]

years unadressed at this point

[sacred rune]

and if you feel like shit for days

[normal hawk]

Niche can be fun, just doesn’t have to be mass appeal

[sacred rune]

before reaching a level you still don't feel good but slightly better

[cinder relic]

I find the spec fun idk what u want from me

Do u want me to lie? and say its not fun

[vagrant kiln]

tbf i do have fun with outlaw/sub

[normal hawk]

Paladin is the most popular spec

It’s fuckn dull

[cinder relic]

Why would I care what other people think? Other people watch shit like love island and marvel movies

[vagrant kiln]

even if i get shit on by othe specs dps wise

[sacred rune]

why not play something thats good at the start and continues to be so?

[livid kindle]

also poor tuning creates a loop of more people leaving spec just delete spec at this point

[cinder relic]

Am I suppose to give a fuck what has "widespread appeal and popularity"

[wintry solar]

You know that's what people want lol

[hollow bloom]

it doesnt have mass appeal because you do so much in terms of rotation and optimization and you just get mid dps. and even then the casual isnt going to read guides or is going to be optimal. so the dps is even worse for casuals or the mass audiance that doesnt even read discord.

[grim spear]

bc you're someone with influence
you should be on the side of the people you represent

[cinder relic]

Absolutely not LOL

I think rogue is fun, I like how its designed

[grim spear]

fine then

[valid hound]

trickster is also fun to u?

with this ks

[cinder relic]

I didn't sign up to be a thought leader, or a vessel for ppl to complain thru

[livid kindle]

idm spec gameplay wise its been better or worse i just want proper tuning is that too much to ask?

[cinder relic]

I like rogue, I think rogue is undertuned

I'm not gonna lie for your sake

Sorry!

[wintry solar]

What about mine?

[grim spear]

[wintry solar]

We literally see eye to eye on a lot Guy

Cmaaaaahn

[normal hawk]

I think you’re allowed to have an opinion on what u find fun or not and not have to like, bend it for others

[latent oak]

does this chart mean that u think paladin is the most fun class

[valid hound]

i mean i guess rogue is fun to most of us, we wouldnt play it

[grim spear]

ppl vote with their choice

[valid hound]

its just that its tuning sucks

[dim parrot]

I wonder if they even did the math

On new outlaw tuning

[vagrant kiln]

math?

[dim parrot]

Seems weird

[cinder relic]

Guys call of duty is the best video game of all time

[grim spear]

players voted with their money and their time
they picked the classes and specs they actually enjoy playing

[cinder relic]

Its the most popular and fun?

Thoughts?

[latent oak]

u mean candy crush?

[grim spear]

they made it pretty clear

[vagrant kiln]

well evoker is p low on that list and its a brand new class with one of the strongest specs in the game

[quiet ore]

Another acti-blizz-king-msft property

[vagrant kiln]

so ig we delete aug too

[latent oak]

the real cabal

[wintry solar]

Modern Warfare 4 will be peak y'all, trust. It'll save the franchise

[normal hawk]

Must be fun though

[wintry solar]

Surely this time they'll get it

[normal hawk]

So many people bought it

[sacred rune]

*minecraft

[tribal cosmos]

cant be having outlaw middle of the pack

nerf them right away

chop chop blizz

[sacred rune]

(minecraft is technically the most played/sold)

[quiet ore]

Another acti-blizz-king-msft property

[sacred rune]

to be fair

i think its easier to have polarizing opinions about cod

which is why guy probably made it an example

minecraft feels like its harder to critique

so sorry to make the point less polarizing

[valid hound]

if i could get back to FB after this nerf i'd be fine, but nerfing and needing to stick to this gameplay is what i dont like. tricksters will still be 5-6% ahead

[quiet ore]

I mean, fb will just be 5% better than it was last week

[dim parrot]

I’d love a FB buff but idt they can since that would buff assa

DR from the stacking faze thing was nice briefly

[tribal cosmos]

another 5 % bf nerf

2% aura buff

go hard

[valid hound]

so u think fb and tricksters will be more or less same ? dps wise

[dim parrot]

Felt like defensive every time I hit AR

[dim parrot]

No

[torpid lodge]

Its fine guys, on monday evening, blizz will revise outlaw with additional buffs to further compensate for the cloud nerfs

[livid kindle]

🙂

[keen violet]

yeah, fs, trust blizzard, we had a good run in TWW no reason why we wont have the same treatment in Midnight

[glass shard]

if ur output is ur metric of fun the class color cant ever be relevant

only reason nerfs mean i m having less fun is cuz i no longer get to play the game

(invite bottleneck)

[orchid oracle]

and nerf bf, dont forget

[quiet ore]

I mean, being real, you look at the data on wcl and we all basically swapped from fatebound to trickster cloud cover on patch day, like 99% pop to 99% pop. That's not "organic" that's "everyone who plays outlaw reads a guide". We're basically one low-pop hivemind - we clearly can't be trusted to not have forgotten or missed some secret tech that unlocks another 20% DPS since there's basically only 5 of us, so action must be slow and deliberate.

[vivid vessel]

xdd

[potent walrus]

Greetings @vivid vessel

Do we suck now

Whats the tldr

For rogue specs in high keys

[obsidian walrus]

worse than now better then before the talent

[potent walrus]

Than

😎

[quiet ore]

Push yer keys this weekend, it'll be a few weeks before your ilvls catch back up to where you are now

[glass shard]

ive been applying to 18s for 3.5h

with 0 invites

my season is over

o7

[vivid vessel]

we got nerfed by more than aug, dk and dev

[potent walrus]

is phys comp in shambles

[mighty pivot]

no they buffed arms

so it will carry

zac will enjoy the ride on farover's broad shoulders

[tribal cosmos]

did they even buff the good arms

[potent walrus]

At least they haven’t touched demo locks

[tribal cosmos]

thought slayer was doodoo

[copper radish]

So what classes we checking out to level

[potent walrus]

The class that does 60k more than the next dps

[glass shard]

aug (as always)

tbf

meta wont change

outlaw just gets deep dicked for 0

[mighty pivot]

they can't nerf demo or calamari will start creating videos asking for buffs

[copper radish]

I already got the Devourer ready to fall back on too 😂

[unkempt dew]

We can always close the discord

[keen violet]

do we have dev resoning for the nerf or they dont even care/can't to elaborate on why they do what they do?

[old gull]

devourer main

[orchid oracle]

chatgpt cant reason like that sorry

[tribal cosmos]

close discord

[mighty pivot]

if there is no reasoning in the notes you won't find it anywhere else

[tribal cosmos]

thats the problem ngl

we have no complaining content creators

[quiet ore]

Well, like. The node was too strong for a hero tree node. Like by a lot. It might still be.

[glass shard]

imagine how dumpster it would be without lol

[tight kernel]

!! guys back to sin we go? !!

[copper radish]

Rogue can never have fun

[unkempt dew]

Outlaw for life. There is no “going back to”

[clear tulip]

Back to flipping coins

[tribal cosmos]

people dislike unpopular classes being strong

so if you never want to be bad

play a popular class spec

[unborn basin]

damn trickster had a short run??

[tribal cosmos]

you will never be bad

[quiet ore]

Two kinda ok weeks

[tribal cosmos]

warlock never bad mage never bad one of the druids never bad warrior never bad

[keen violet]

i agree, we jsut ditched fatebound, i'd rather have them buffing the spec tree fs.

[tribal cosmos]

rogue ? lucky if you get spit on

[tight kernel]

wasnt warrior dog in df?

[tribal cosmos]

there was always a good warrior

[unborn basin]

what was their reasoning for the cloud cover nerf?

[tribal cosmos]

outlaw being middle of the pack

[valid hound]

we started being viable

[tight kernel]

I mean technically there is a good rogue spec too

[tribal cosmos]

thats the whole reasoning

[tight kernel]

idk your logic seems weak

making me sound like guy rn

[tribal cosmos]

there isnt a good rogue spec anymore

its joever

reroll dev dh

and press collapsing star

[slender wadi]

Or keep playing what ya like

[heavy shard]

outlaw rogue is for solo content 😄

[cinder relic]

LOLOL

[quiet ore]

Deeeeeefinitely not

[glass shard]

im trying but no1 is inviting me cuz yellow class bad

[quiet ore]

OL is so godawful in solo content

[glass shard]

worst part is

even if i get invite

after 4h

can still deplete on first pack

unxdd

[magic shuttle]

Gotta do your own keys

[jolly geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-kitten-gun-funny-bad-cat-gif-16157012002585345556

[wicked grove]

Surely rogue is still half decent right

[keen violet]

cant even farm old raids cuz i have no aoe because of how BF works.

[heavy shard]

Idk I've ran delves with SBA as trickster and I just roll over everything because Valeera tanks, heals and does dps

[glass shard]

yes functionally 6% doesnt matter at all

[worldly zephyr]

Yeah but we’d rather not play a 2 button spec lol

[glass shard]

6% for avg player is more practice on a dummy

[glass shard]

sub is legitimately so easy ti feels like ur missing something lol

[quiet ore]

Yeah, that's crutching on valeera. Actual solo world mobs melt you in about a minute of sustained combat.

[glass shard]

what lives for a minute ?

[worldly zephyr]

Assa is close behind the simplicity of sub imo

[heavy shard]

true... doing nightmare prays is hilariously bad compared to my hunter that just chills

[glass shard]

never specced it

[quiet ore]

Rare elites 🤷 nightmare prey at 220 ilvl 🤷

[glass shard]

fair

legit couldnt think of anything

xd

[jolly geyser]

play another class from rogue and see how solo stuff feels

[quiet ore]

Yeah, my tank alts, healer alts, and rdps have all had a much easier go of it than rogue did at low ilvl. Still doable, but emptying the rogue defensive and cc bag just to handle a world mob feels bad

[glass shard]

that requires 20 hour random dungeon spam tax

zzzzzzzz

[wintry solar]

Naw just class trial

[valid hound]

what classes are similar to rogue? in terms of playstyle?

[tight kernel]

like apm?

[valid hound]

yea

[tight kernel]

a tank

[valid hound]

similar to outlaw

fury war?

[vivid vessel]

brew

[fervent vessel]

Tanks pretty much it

[quiet ore]

Holy paladin

No, feral druid

Literally furry assassination rogue

[glass shard]

does feral also have a bleed execute

[valid hound]

fury is similar to assassination? i thought its similar to outlaw

and i thought feral = assa

i just dont like the cat form honestly

and dont like ww hitting with fists

i want axes

[tribal cosmos]

feral has some great uncapped aoe burst

and good funnel

[quiet ore]

Glyph of jab

[valid hound]

didnt know about that one, thx

[quiet ore]

But if you wanna check the boxes of "builder", "spender", "rotation impacting rng procs", and "mixed ranged and melee abilities" h pal got your back

[unborn basin]

If you could keep one thing from tww outlaw what would it be?

[sly hearth]

Feral ofc, but outlaw is more like a slower war

[valid hound]

was looking more for a dps alt

[valid hound]

u mean war is like a slower rogue?

[sly hearth]

Still druids have button bloat effect

[sly hearth]

Sry, faster war

[valid hound]

yea

[sly hearth]

Ofc war is slower

[valid hound]

i miss combat rogue...

[next thunder]

Will they fix the rogue fart cloud visual

maybe make it 100% green

[iron trout]

A quick question. Why does fatebound M+ outlaw not spec into "Sleight of Hand" ?

[rocky kiln]

!fuu

[ornate heath]

Rogue Spreadsheet - Light Version / Dark Version

[keen violet]

yes, they will prob nerf it again soon, so no one will use it. fixed. sub already dropped it as far as i know.

[next thunder]

Sad, i feel like we had our one moment in the sun in PVE for 2-3 weeks and now we're getting hammered down again haha

[unkempt dew]

Do you guys have a alt?

[next thunder]

ya i it's a different game on monk/dh/hunter

but not challenging enough

[loud moat]

MM hunter. Looking at the buffs and then looking at our changes...